Mothra said:

---

The Harvard article certainly supports my statement:

"The results of this study, reported in the journal Cell, indicate that traditional dosing regimens of COVID-19 vaccines available in the United States do not produce antibodies capable of recognizing and neutralizing the Omicron variant."

The second article calls into question whether the booster has any effect and concluded it does not.

---

The first article concluded that the booster did have an effect.

"We detected very little neutralization of the Omicron variant pseudovirus when we used samples taken from people who were recently vaccinated with two doses of mRNA vaccine or one dose of Johnson & Johnson," says Balazs. "But individuals who received three doses of mRNA vaccine had very significant neutralization against the Omicron variant."

Did you read the whole article?

Of course, this is also a lab based study that, according to the article, looked at antibody response. It did not mention any other parts of the immune system.

Canada2017 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Ghostrider said:

---

Canon said:

---

Ghostrider said:

---

Canon said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

Canon said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

From what I have read, anyone experiencing a symptom of covid months after contracting the disease is considered a long hauler. So my sense of taste and smell haven't completed returned, well, I am supposedly now a "long hauler" since it's been a few months, despite the fact I feel perfectly fine.

It would appear that definition is being used to scare people when even a minor lingering effect makes on a "long hauler."

---

Out local hospital did not start a program for COVID long haulers because of "minor lingering effects." It is substantial enough here that they felt the need to do something about it.

---

While that may be true, if you do a google search of what is considered a long hauler, apparently those with minor lingering effects are being included in that number.

---

And?

---

And that label is being used to scare people, despite its inaccuracy.

---

That is pretty ironic coming from you.

---

He's consistently said (accurately) that Covid is not a danger to the vast majority of people. He's not trying to scare anyone. He just wants to be left alone by you lot who thrive on Covid fear porn.

---

He has offered misleading information regarding the safety of the COVID vaccines, or the lack thereof, that would get him reprimanded and retrained or fired if he had a job as a (real) journalist.

---

The current job of 'real' journalists is to offer misleading information regarding COVID. It appears our CDC has assumed that role as well, particularly as regards masks and therapeutics. His offering of accurate information which is not only not discussed by mainstream media but suppressed, is a public service.

There are potential issues with these vaccines that no one can honestly dismiss because there is ZERO longitudinal data on them. You and many others dislike that he raises questions because you want sheep like compliance. He has questions. He has concerns. Many others do as well and they are well founded.

If you would simply leave others alone and let them make their own choices, absent of suppressing information that doesn't coincide with your narrative, you might learn something or convince people your side has merit. Suppression doesn't do anything but convince others you are incorrect enough to hide something.

---

9.37 billion have been vaccinated with very very very few issues. I'd say it is more than safe…except for Alex Jones types.

---

You don't understand what longitudinal means.

Also, there aren't 9.37 billion people on earth. So there's that too. You might want to sit this one out, Covid porn boy.

---

9.37 billion doses given.

---

And COVID is still running rampant. It's almost as if that approach has not worked.

---

This virus was engineered by the Chinese for purposes unknown.

Mutates too quickly for any vaccine to be fully effective.

As a potential weapon this engineered virus has proven to be incredibly effective in its destructive impact upon the people and economies of the world .

Amazes me how the political, scientific, and media leadership of the United States pointedly ignores the culpability of the Chinese government in this horror.

---

Probably because there are some in the Scientific and even in the political sector in the United States that had a hand in the financing and possibly even the potential outcome of whatever it is they were developing. I'm pretty sure it wasn't meant to get out of the Lab, but it did.

Mothra said:

---

The Harvard article certainly supports my statement:

"The results of this study, reported in the journal Cell, indicate that traditional dosing regimens of COVID-19 vaccines available in the United States do not produce antibodies capable of recognizing and neutralizing the Omicron variant."

The second article calls into question whether the booster has any effect and concluded it does not.

---

You don't understand what you're reading.

D. C. Bear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

The Harvard article certainly supports my statement:

"The results of this study, reported in the journal Cell, indicate that traditional dosing regimens of COVID-19 vaccines available in the United States do not produce antibodies capable of recognizing and neutralizing the Omicron variant."

The second article calls into question whether the booster has any effect and concluded it does not.

---

The first article concluded that the booster did have an effect.

"We detected very little neutralization of the Omicron variant pseudovirus when we used samples taken from people who were recently vaccinated with two doses of mRNA vaccine or one dose of Johnson & Johnson," says Balazs. "But individuals who received three doses of mRNA vaccine had very significant neutralization against the Omicron variant."

Did you read the whole article?

Of course, this is also a lab based study that, according to the article, looked at antibody response. It did not mention any other parts of the immune system.

---

Against severe disease. Not against transmission, which if you will read my post, is what I stated.

"Booster shots with messenger RNA vaccines such as those made by Pfizer Inc. and BioNTech SE failed to block omicron in a study of some of the first documented breakthrough cases caused by the highly contagious variant."

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

The Harvard article certainly supports my statement:

"The results of this study, reported in the journal Cell, indicate that traditional dosing regimens of COVID-19 vaccines available in the United States do not produce antibodies capable of recognizing and neutralizing the Omicron variant."

The second article calls into question whether the booster has any effect and concluded it does not.

---

You don't understand what you're reading.

---

Feel free to give your interpretation.

Mothra said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

The Harvard article certainly supports my statement:

"The results of this study, reported in the journal Cell, indicate that traditional dosing regimens of COVID-19 vaccines available in the United States do not produce antibodies capable of recognizing and neutralizing the Omicron variant."

The second article calls into question whether the booster has any effect and concluded it does not.

---

The first article concluded that the booster did have an effect.

"We detected very little neutralization of the Omicron variant pseudovirus when we used samples taken from people who were recently vaccinated with two doses of mRNA vaccine or one dose of Johnson & Johnson," says Balazs. "But individuals who received three doses of mRNA vaccine had very significant neutralization against the Omicron variant."

Did you read the whole article?

Of course, this is also a lab based study that, according to the article, looked at antibody response. It did not mention any other parts of the immune system.

---

Against severe disease. Not against transmission, which if you will read my post, is what I stated.

---

And now you're just making stuff up. The tests used in the study don't even make that distinction.

Doc Holliday said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

J.R. said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

J.R. said:

---

just learned today that all 10 folks in my office have Covid except me cuz I had it over Christmas and New Years. Stuff is really contagious !

---

What are the symptoms of your colleagues?

---

mostly just cold like symptoms . One is on her ass!

---

That's what my acquaintances are reporting. One is reporting flu like symptoms. None are enjoying it, but none are close to having any serious problems

---

And as the study that came out a few days ago said, the mRNA vaccines have literally zero effect on preventing transmission.

---

False.

https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2021/12/14/1063947940/vaccine-protection-vs-omicron-infection-may-drop-to-30-but-does-cut-severe-disea

---

False.

https://www.bloombergquint.com/business/mrna-boosters-don-t-block-omicron-south-african-study-shows

"Booster shots with messenger RNA vaccines such as those made by Pfizer Inc. and BioNTech SE failed to block omicron in a study of some of the first documented breakthrough cases caused by the highly contagious variant."

And I just have to say, LOL that you are now resorting to articles from NPR. Sad.

---

There's no contradiction between the two articles.

---

Thanks for the correction. I am glad we agree RNA vaccines fail to block transmission of omicron, as my article states and as I originally posted. You know, the post that you mistakenly represented was false?

Apology accepted.

---

False.

---

I got vaccinated and caught omicron.

There's millions like me. It's false for them.

You can say it slightly prevents spread…but not at levels to make a significant difference.

---

I know 8 people that got Omicron in the last 2 weeks. Only one person in the office didnt get it(they had delta in October and got vaxed in late Nov) The others got it, all vaxed. About a dozen people at my spouses work got it, all but one who tested positive were vaxed.

Thats nearly 2 dozen vaxed people I know of who got it. Omicron doesnt care if you are vaxed.

D. C. Bear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

The Harvard article certainly supports my statement:

"The results of this study, reported in the journal Cell, indicate that traditional dosing regimens of COVID-19 vaccines available in the United States do not produce antibodies capable of recognizing and neutralizing the Omicron variant."

The second article calls into question whether the booster has any effect and concluded it does not.

---

The first article concluded that the booster did have an effect.

"We detected very little neutralization of the Omicron variant pseudovirus when we used samples taken from people who were recently vaccinated with two doses of mRNA vaccine or one dose of Johnson & Johnson," says Balazs. "But individuals who received three doses of mRNA vaccine had very significant neutralization against the Omicron variant."

Did you read the whole article?

Of course, this is also a lab based study that, according to the article, looked at antibody response. It did not mention any other parts of the immune system.

---

they forgot to tell all the Omicron cases in Isreal where they are on 4 doses of the vax. Record infections over there.. Omicron does not stop to read your vax card.

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

The Harvard article certainly supports my statement:

"The results of this study, reported in the journal Cell, indicate that traditional dosing regimens of COVID-19 vaccines available in the United States do not produce antibodies capable of recognizing and neutralizing the Omicron variant."

The second article calls into question whether the booster has any effect and concluded it does not.

---

The first article concluded that the booster did have an effect.

"We detected very little neutralization of the Omicron variant pseudovirus when we used samples taken from people who were recently vaccinated with two doses of mRNA vaccine or one dose of Johnson & Johnson," says Balazs. "But individuals who received three doses of mRNA vaccine had very significant neutralization against the Omicron variant."

Did you read the whole article?

Of course, this is also a lab based study that, according to the article, looked at antibody response. It did not mention any other parts of the immune system.

---

Against severe disease. Not against transmission, which if you will read my post, is what I stated.

---

And now you're just making stuff up.

---

I'm sure the irony of this statement is lost on you.

Does the article I posted show that traditional dosing regimens of COVID-19 vaccines available in the United States produce antibodies capable of recognizing and neutralizing the Omicron variant or not?

Mothra said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

The Harvard article certainly supports my statement:

"The results of this study, reported in the journal Cell, indicate that traditional dosing regimens of COVID-19 vaccines available in the United States do not produce antibodies capable of recognizing and neutralizing the Omicron variant."

The second article calls into question whether the booster has any effect and concluded it does not.

---

The first article concluded that the booster did have an effect.

"We detected very little neutralization of the Omicron variant pseudovirus when we used samples taken from people who were recently vaccinated with two doses of mRNA vaccine or one dose of Johnson & Johnson," says Balazs. "But individuals who received three doses of mRNA vaccine had very significant neutralization against the Omicron variant."

Did you read the whole article?

Of course, this is also a lab based study that, according to the article, looked at antibody response. It did not mention any other parts of the immune system.

---

Against severe disease. Not against transmission, which if you will read my post, is what I stated.

"Booster shots with messenger RNA vaccines such as those made by Pfizer Inc. and BioNTech SE failed to block omicron in a study of some of the first documented breakthrough cases caused by the highly contagious variant."

---

That's a case study of seven people. For all we know, there were 30 other people in the same situation who remained uninfected. This is why the case study of seven boosted Germans in South Africa does not lead to the conclusion you gave. Learn what you are reading.

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

The Harvard article certainly supports my statement:

"The results of this study, reported in the journal Cell, indicate that traditional dosing regimens of COVID-19 vaccines available in the United States do not produce antibodies capable of recognizing and neutralizing the Omicron variant."

The second article calls into question whether the booster has any effect and concluded it does not.

---

The first article concluded that the booster did have an effect.

"We detected very little neutralization of the Omicron variant pseudovirus when we used samples taken from people who were recently vaccinated with two doses of mRNA vaccine or one dose of Johnson & Johnson," says Balazs. "But individuals who received three doses of mRNA vaccine had very significant neutralization against the Omicron variant."

Did you read the whole article?

Of course, this is also a lab based study that, according to the article, looked at antibody response. It did not mention any other parts of the immune system.

---

Against severe disease. Not against transmission, which if you will read my post, is what I stated.

---

And now you're just making stuff up.

---

I'm sure the irony of this statement is lost on you.

Does the article I posted show that traditional dosing regimens of COVID-19 vaccines available in the United States produce antibodies capable of recognizing and neutralizing the Omicron variant or not?

---

Does that same study find significant neutralizing antibodies following a booster? (Yes, it does, which would make your claim that the vaccines do "literally nothing" to stop transmission rather dubious if one assumed that the presence of neutralizing antibodies would lessen transmission, which appears to be an assumption you have made by claiming that the absence of neutralizing antibodies is conclusive evidence that the vaccines do not provide any protection against infection).

4th and Inches said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

J.R. said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

J.R. said:

---

just learned today that all 10 folks in my office have Covid except me cuz I had it over Christmas and New Years. Stuff is really contagious !

---

What are the symptoms of your colleagues?

---

mostly just cold like symptoms . One is on her ass!

---

That's what my acquaintances are reporting. One is reporting flu like symptoms. None are enjoying it, but none are close to having any serious problems

---

And as the study that came out a few days ago said, the mRNA vaccines have literally zero effect on preventing transmission.

---

False.

https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2021/12/14/1063947940/vaccine-protection-vs-omicron-infection-may-drop-to-30-but-does-cut-severe-disea

---

False.

https://www.bloombergquint.com/business/mrna-boosters-don-t-block-omicron-south-african-study-shows

"Booster shots with messenger RNA vaccines such as those made by Pfizer Inc. and BioNTech SE failed to block omicron in a study of some of the first documented breakthrough cases caused by the highly contagious variant."

And I just have to say, LOL that you are now resorting to articles from NPR. Sad.

---

There's no contradiction between the two articles.

---

Thanks for the correction. I am glad we agree RNA vaccines fail to block transmission of omicron, as my article states and as I originally posted. You know, the post that you mistakenly represented was false?

Apology accepted.

---

False.

---

I got vaccinated and caught omicron.

There's millions like me. It's false for them.

You can say it slightly prevents spread…but not at levels to make a significant difference.

---

I know 8 people that got Omicron in the last 2 weeks. Only one person in the office didnt get it(they had delta in October and got vaxed in late Nov) The others got it, all vaxed. About a dozen people at my spouses work got it, all but one who tested positive were vaxed.

Thats nearly 2 dozen vaxed people I know of who got it. Omicron doesnt care if you are vaxed.

---

Yes, omicron spreads more than previous variants among vaccinated individuals. However, "I know some people" is not how data analysis works. I know a kid who ended up in the ER with what doctors think was a COVID-based allergic reaction and a relative who spend the night in the hospital with a rapid heartbeat that doctors think was related to the vaccine. Both are fine now, but neither individual situation should be used to make broad conclusions about either the risk of COVID in children or the risk of the vaccine in adults.

Forest Bueller_bf said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Ghostrider said:

---

Canon said:

---

Ghostrider said:

---

Canon said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

Canon said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

From what I have read, anyone experiencing a symptom of covid months after contracting the disease is considered a long hauler. So my sense of taste and smell haven't completed returned, well, I am supposedly now a "long hauler" since it's been a few months, despite the fact I feel perfectly fine.

It would appear that definition is being used to scare people when even a minor lingering effect makes on a "long hauler."

---

Out local hospital did not start a program for COVID long haulers because of "minor lingering effects." It is substantial enough here that they felt the need to do something about it.

---

While that may be true, if you do a google search of what is considered a long hauler, apparently those with minor lingering effects are being included in that number.

---

And?

---

And that label is being used to scare people, despite its inaccuracy.

---

That is pretty ironic coming from you.

---

He's consistently said (accurately) that Covid is not a danger to the vast majority of people. He's not trying to scare anyone. He just wants to be left alone by you lot who thrive on Covid fear porn.

---

He has offered misleading information regarding the safety of the COVID vaccines, or the lack thereof, that would get him reprimanded and retrained or fired if he had a job as a (real) journalist.

---

The current job of 'real' journalists is to offer misleading information regarding COVID. It appears our CDC has assumed that role as well, particularly as regards masks and therapeutics. His offering of accurate information which is not only not discussed by mainstream media but suppressed, is a public service.

There are potential issues with these vaccines that no one can honestly dismiss because there is ZERO longitudinal data on them. You and many others dislike that he raises questions because you want sheep like compliance. He has questions. He has concerns. Many others do as well and they are well founded.

If you would simply leave others alone and let them make their own choices, absent of suppressing information that doesn't coincide with your narrative, you might learn something or convince people your side has merit. Suppression doesn't do anything but convince others you are incorrect enough to hide something.

---

9.37 billion have been vaccinated with very very very few issues. I'd say it is more than safe…except for Alex Jones types.

---

You don't understand what longitudinal means.

Also, there aren't 9.37 billion people on earth. So there's that too. You might want to sit this one out, Covid porn boy.

---

9.37 billion doses given.

---

And COVID is still running rampant. It's almost as if that approach has not worked.

---

This virus was engineered by the Chinese for purposes unknown.

Mutates too quickly for any vaccine to be fully effective.

As a potential weapon this engineered virus has proven to be incredibly effective in its destructive impact upon the people and economies of the world .

Amazes me how the political, scientific, and media leadership of the United States pointedly ignores the culpability of the Chinese government in this horror.

---

Probably because there are some in the Scientific and even in the political sector in the United States that had a hand in the financing and possibly even the potential outcome of whatever it is they were developing. I'm pretty sure it wasn't meant to get out of the Lab, but it did.

---

Disgusting......but very likely .

D. C. Bear said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

J.R. said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

J.R. said:

---

just learned today that all 10 folks in my office have Covid except me cuz I had it over Christmas and New Years. Stuff is really contagious !

---

What are the symptoms of your colleagues?

---

mostly just cold like symptoms . One is on her ass!

---

That's what my acquaintances are reporting. One is reporting flu like symptoms. None are enjoying it, but none are close to having any serious problems

---

And as the study that came out a few days ago said, the mRNA vaccines have literally zero effect on preventing transmission.

---

False.

https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2021/12/14/1063947940/vaccine-protection-vs-omicron-infection-may-drop-to-30-but-does-cut-severe-disea

---

False.

https://www.bloombergquint.com/business/mrna-boosters-don-t-block-omicron-south-african-study-shows

"Booster shots with messenger RNA vaccines such as those made by Pfizer Inc. and BioNTech SE failed to block omicron in a study of some of the first documented breakthrough cases caused by the highly contagious variant."

And I just have to say, LOL that you are now resorting to articles from NPR. Sad.

---

There's no contradiction between the two articles.

---

Thanks for the correction. I am glad we agree RNA vaccines fail to block transmission of omicron, as my article states and as I originally posted. You know, the post that you mistakenly represented was false?

Apology accepted.

---

False.

---

I got vaccinated and caught omicron.

There's millions like me. It's false for them.

You can say it slightly prevents spread…but not at levels to make a significant difference.

---

I know 8 people that got Omicron in the last 2 weeks. Only one person in the office didnt get it(they had delta in October and got vaxed in late Nov) The others got it, all vaxed. About a dozen people at my spouses work got it, all but one who tested positive were vaxed.

Thats nearly 2 dozen vaxed people I know of who got it. Omicron doesnt care if you are vaxed.

---

Yes, omicron spreads more than previous variants among vaccinated individuals. However, "I know some people" is not how data analysis works. I know a kid who ended up in the ER with what doctors think was a COVID-based allergic reaction and a relative who spend the night in the hospital with a rapid heartbeat that doctors think was related to the vaccine. Both are fine now, but neither individual situation should be used to make broad conclusions about either the risk of COVID in children or the risk of the vaccine in adults.

---

right.. cause I happen to live near the only Vaxed people in the country that covid just didnt care that they were.. wonder how many of the 900 new positives in mclennan county yesterday were vaxed?

Isreal having an Omicron surge in the vaxed community is the same as my anecdotal evidence.. it allows me to draw broader conclusions.

The macro numbers are all you need to review. The studies are theories not confirmations. Statistical outcomes provide the probabilities and trends. This desperate clinging to vaccine efficacy on spread has become comical. Stick with the reductions in hospitalization and death which have statistical support. However we are on a slow regression to the mean there as the category of "breakthrough deaths" is increasing at a rate greater than non-vaxxed deaths which remain consistent comparatively.

ATL Bear said:

---

The macro numbers are all you need to review. The studies are theories not confirmations. Statistical outcomes provide the probabilities and trends. This desperate clinging to vaccine efficacy on spread has become comical. Stick with the reductions in hospitalization and death which have statistical support. However we are on a slow regression to the mean there as the category of "breakthrough deaths" is increasing at a rate greater than non-vaxxed deaths which remain consistent comparatively.

---

There is no "clinging" here. It has been readily apparent for some time that omicron spreads much more easily in vaccinated populations than previous variants. However, there is still evidence that the vaccines, particularly among those with boosters, do reduce infections (and not just hospitalizations and deaths) compared with unvaccinated populations. This is what the data say at this point.

It is also apparent that, thankfully, Omicron infections tend to be less severe in general than previous variants, and may be even less severe among vaccinated individuals, as recent Swiss data seems to show.

D. C. Bear said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

The macro numbers are all you need to review. The studies are theories not confirmations. Statistical outcomes provide the probabilities and trends. This desperate clinging to vaccine efficacy on spread has become comical. Stick with the reductions in hospitalization and death which have statistical support. However we are on a slow regression to the mean there as the category of "breakthrough deaths" is increasing at a rate greater than non-vaxxed deaths which remain consistent comparatively.

---

There is no "clinging" here. It has been readily apparent for some time that omicron spreads much more easily in vaccinated populations than previous variants. However, there is still evidence that the vaccines, particularly among those with boosters, do reduce infections (and not just hospitalizations and deaths) compared with unvaccinated populations. This is what the data say at this point.

It is also apparent that, thankfully, Omicron infections tend to be less severe in general than previous variants, and may be even less severe among vaccinated individuals, as recent Swiss data seems to show.

---

It won't matter because you want to believe what you want to, but I'll give you a simple example, which you're welcome to see the multitude of additional examples in the US or globally. Despite Texas having a vaccination rate 20% lower than New York, Texas also has a 15% lower case (infection) rate than New York and even a lower death rate (significant). Now if you start the analysis from when vaccines began their effect, the case/infection rates remained similar, but the death rates changed comparatively. That's why I've said there has been a statistical impact to severe outcomes since vaccines, but nothing material on infections. See the forest not just some trees they want you to look at.

This includes pre Omicron.

ATL Bear said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

The macro numbers are all you need to review. The studies are theories not confirmations. Statistical outcomes provide the probabilities and trends. This desperate clinging to vaccine efficacy on spread has become comical. Stick with the reductions in hospitalization and death which have statistical support. However we are on a slow regression to the mean there as the category of "breakthrough deaths" is increasing at a rate greater than non-vaxxed deaths which remain consistent comparatively.

---

There is no "clinging" here. It has been readily apparent for some time that omicron spreads much more easily in vaccinated populations than previous variants. However, there is still evidence that the vaccines, particularly among those with boosters, do reduce infections (and not just hospitalizations and deaths) compared with unvaccinated populations. This is what the data say at this point.

It is also apparent that, thankfully, Omicron infections tend to be less severe in general than previous variants, and may be even less severe among vaccinated individuals, as recent Swiss data seems to show.

---

It won't matter because you want to believe what you want to, but I'll give you a simple example, which you're welcome to see the multitude of additional examples in the US or globally. Despite Texas having a vaccination rate 20% lower than New York, Texas also has a 15% lower case (infection) rate than New York and even a lower death rate (significant). Now if you start the analysis from when vaccines began their effect, the case/infection rates remained similar, but the death rates changed comparatively. That's why I've said there has been a statistical impact to severe outcomes since vaccines, but nothing material on infections. See the forest not just some trees they want you to look at.

This includes pre Omicron.

---

Looks solid. You should publish it and really shake things up.

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

The Harvard article certainly supports my statement:

"The results of this study, reported in the journal Cell, indicate that traditional dosing regimens of COVID-19 vaccines available in the United States do not produce antibodies capable of recognizing and neutralizing the Omicron variant."

The second article calls into question whether the booster has any effect and concluded it does not.

---

The first article concluded that the booster did have an effect.

"We detected very little neutralization of the Omicron variant pseudovirus when we used samples taken from people who were recently vaccinated with two doses of mRNA vaccine or one dose of Johnson & Johnson," says Balazs. "But individuals who received three doses of mRNA vaccine had very significant neutralization against the Omicron variant."

Did you read the whole article?

Of course, this is also a lab based study that, according to the article, looked at antibody response. It did not mention any other parts of the immune system.

---

Against severe disease. Not against transmission, which if you will read my post, is what I stated.

---

The tests used in the study don't even make that distinction.

---

Ahhhh, but you did.

D. C. Bear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

The Harvard article certainly supports my statement:

"The results of this study, reported in the journal Cell, indicate that traditional dosing regimens of COVID-19 vaccines available in the United States do not produce antibodies capable of recognizing and neutralizing the Omicron variant."

The second article calls into question whether the booster has any effect and concluded it does not.

---

The first article concluded that the booster did have an effect.

"We detected very little neutralization of the Omicron variant pseudovirus when we used samples taken from people who were recently vaccinated with two doses of mRNA vaccine or one dose of Johnson & Johnson," says Balazs. "But individuals who received three doses of mRNA vaccine had very significant neutralization against the Omicron variant."

Did you read the whole article?

Of course, this is also a lab based study that, according to the article, looked at antibody response. It did not mention any other parts of the immune system.

---

Against severe disease. Not against transmission, which if you will read my post, is what I stated.

---

And now you're just making stuff up.

---

I'm sure the irony of this statement is lost on you.

Does the article I posted show that traditional dosing regimens of COVID-19 vaccines available in the United States produce antibodies capable of recognizing and neutralizing the Omicron variant or not?

---

Does that same study find significant neutralizing antibodies following a booster? (Yes, it does, which would make your claim that the vaccines do "literally nothing" to stop transmission rather dubious if one assumed that the presence of neutralizing antibodies would lessen transmission, which appears to be an assumption you have made by claiming that the absence of neutralizing antibodies is conclusive evidence that the vaccines do not provide any protection against infection).

---

It's only dubious to those who can't read. The article I quoted says the COVID-19 vaccines available in the United States do not produce antibodies capable of recognizing and neutralizing the Omicron variant. It appears there is conflicting data on whether the boosters are capable of doing so.

Mothra said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

The Harvard article certainly supports my statement:

"The results of this study, reported in the journal Cell, indicate that traditional dosing regimens of COVID-19 vaccines available in the United States do not produce antibodies capable of recognizing and neutralizing the Omicron variant."

The second article calls into question whether the booster has any effect and concluded it does not.

---

The first article concluded that the booster did have an effect.

"We detected very little neutralization of the Omicron variant pseudovirus when we used samples taken from people who were recently vaccinated with two doses of mRNA vaccine or one dose of Johnson & Johnson," says Balazs. "But individuals who received three doses of mRNA vaccine had very significant neutralization against the Omicron variant."

Did you read the whole article?

Of course, this is also a lab based study that, according to the article, looked at antibody response. It did not mention any other parts of the immune system.

---

Against severe disease. Not against transmission, which if you will read my post, is what I stated.

---

And now you're just making stuff up.

---

I'm sure the irony of this statement is lost on you.

Does the article I posted show that traditional dosing regimens of COVID-19 vaccines available in the United States produce antibodies capable of recognizing and neutralizing the Omicron variant or not?

---

Does that same study find significant neutralizing antibodies following a booster? (Yes, it does, which would make your claim that the vaccines do "literally nothing" to stop transmission rather dubious if one assumed that the presence of neutralizing antibodies would lessen transmission, which appears to be an assumption you have made by claiming that the absence of neutralizing antibodies is conclusive evidence that the vaccines do not provide any protection against infection).

---

It's only dubious to those who can't read. The article I quoted says the COVID-19 vaccines available in the United States do not produce antibodies capable of recognizing and neutralizing the Omicron variant. It appears there is conflicting data on whether the boosters are capable of doing so.

---

From yesterday:
https://fee.org/articles/cdc-natural-immunity-offered-stronger-protection-against-covid-than-vaccines-during-delta-wave/

Vaccines are very good protection against infection for about 6-8 months, at which time data show they clearly become a liability against infection. They do continue to provide improved outcomes against serious disease.

DC chooses to maintain laser focus on the 2nd sentence, and studiously ignores the 1st.

Mothra said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

The Harvard article certainly supports my statement:

"The results of this study, reported in the journal Cell, indicate that traditional dosing regimens of COVID-19 vaccines available in the United States do not produce antibodies capable of recognizing and neutralizing the Omicron variant."

The second article calls into question whether the booster has any effect and concluded it does not.

---

The first article concluded that the booster did have an effect.

"We detected very little neutralization of the Omicron variant pseudovirus when we used samples taken from people who were recently vaccinated with two doses of mRNA vaccine or one dose of Johnson & Johnson," says Balazs. "But individuals who received three doses of mRNA vaccine had very significant neutralization against the Omicron variant."

Did you read the whole article?

Of course, this is also a lab based study that, according to the article, looked at antibody response. It did not mention any other parts of the immune system.

---

Against severe disease. Not against transmission, which if you will read my post, is what I stated.

---

And now you're just making stuff up.

---

I'm sure the irony of this statement is lost on you.

Does the article I posted show that traditional dosing regimens of COVID-19 vaccines available in the United States produce antibodies capable of recognizing and neutralizing the Omicron variant or not?

---

Does that same study find significant neutralizing antibodies following a booster? (Yes, it does, which would make your claim that the vaccines do "literally nothing" to stop transmission rather dubious if one assumed that the presence of neutralizing antibodies would lessen transmission, which appears to be an assumption you have made by claiming that the absence of neutralizing antibodies is conclusive evidence that the vaccines do not provide any protection against infection).

---

It's only dubious to those who can't read. The article I quoted says the COVID-19 vaccines available in the United States do not produce antibodies capable of recognizing and neutralizing the Omicron variant. It appears there is conflicting data on whether the boosters are capable of doing so.

---

Your argument is dubious to anyone who can understand what they are reading. Again, one of the articles you quoted is a lab study looking at antibodies. It does not look at the effect of any other part of the immune system. Because it is a lab study that looks at a portion of the immune response to a proxy for the actual virus, it is not possible to draw firm conclusions from that study about whether the vaccines, in any dose, would reduce the chances of becoming infected with a particular variant under real world conditions.

The other study you cited is a case study of seven Germans in South Africa. It not not allow us to draw the conclusions you want to draw from it.

whiterock said:

---

Mothra said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

The Harvard article certainly supports my statement:

"The results of this study, reported in the journal Cell, indicate that traditional dosing regimens of COVID-19 vaccines available in the United States do not produce antibodies capable of recognizing and neutralizing the Omicron variant."

The second article calls into question whether the booster has any effect and concluded it does not.

---

The first article concluded that the booster did have an effect.

"We detected very little neutralization of the Omicron variant pseudovirus when we used samples taken from people who were recently vaccinated with two doses of mRNA vaccine or one dose of Johnson & Johnson," says Balazs. "But individuals who received three doses of mRNA vaccine had very significant neutralization against the Omicron variant."

Did you read the whole article?

Of course, this is also a lab based study that, according to the article, looked at antibody response. It did not mention any other parts of the immune system.

---

Against severe disease. Not against transmission, which if you will read my post, is what I stated.

---

And now you're just making stuff up.

---

I'm sure the irony of this statement is lost on you.

Does the article I posted show that traditional dosing regimens of COVID-19 vaccines available in the United States produce antibodies capable of recognizing and neutralizing the Omicron variant or not?

---

Does that same study find significant neutralizing antibodies following a booster? (Yes, it does, which would make your claim that the vaccines do "literally nothing" to stop transmission rather dubious if one assumed that the presence of neutralizing antibodies would lessen transmission, which appears to be an assumption you have made by claiming that the absence of neutralizing antibodies is conclusive evidence that the vaccines do not provide any protection against infection).

---

It's only dubious to those who can't read. The article I quoted says the COVID-19 vaccines available in the United States do not produce antibodies capable of recognizing and neutralizing the Omicron variant. It appears there is conflicting data on whether the boosters are capable of doing so.

---

From yesterday:
https://fee.org/articles/cdc-natural-immunity-offered-stronger-protection-against-covid-than-vaccines-during-delta-wave/

Vaccines are very good protection against infection for about 6-8 months, at which time data show they clearly become a liability against infection. They do continue to provide improved outcomes against serious disease.

DC chooses to maintain laser focus on the 2nd sentence, and studiously ignores the 1st.

---

I know many people who got Covid 2x. Natural immunity doesn't do much either. We are f'd until a better vaccine come out.

Ghostrider said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Mothra said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

The Harvard article certainly supports my statement:

"The results of this study, reported in the journal Cell, indicate that traditional dosing regimens of COVID-19 vaccines available in the United States do not produce antibodies capable of recognizing and neutralizing the Omicron variant."

The second article calls into question whether the booster has any effect and concluded it does not.

---

The first article concluded that the booster did have an effect.

"We detected very little neutralization of the Omicron variant pseudovirus when we used samples taken from people who were recently vaccinated with two doses of mRNA vaccine or one dose of Johnson & Johnson," says Balazs. "But individuals who received three doses of mRNA vaccine had very significant neutralization against the Omicron variant."

Did you read the whole article?

Of course, this is also a lab based study that, according to the article, looked at antibody response. It did not mention any other parts of the immune system.

---

Against severe disease. Not against transmission, which if you will read my post, is what I stated.

---

And now you're just making stuff up.

---

I'm sure the irony of this statement is lost on you.

Does the article I posted show that traditional dosing regimens of COVID-19 vaccines available in the United States produce antibodies capable of recognizing and neutralizing the Omicron variant or not?

---

Does that same study find significant neutralizing antibodies following a booster? (Yes, it does, which would make your claim that the vaccines do "literally nothing" to stop transmission rather dubious if one assumed that the presence of neutralizing antibodies would lessen transmission, which appears to be an assumption you have made by claiming that the absence of neutralizing antibodies is conclusive evidence that the vaccines do not provide any protection against infection).

---

It's only dubious to those who can't read. The article I quoted says the COVID-19 vaccines available in the United States do not produce antibodies capable of recognizing and neutralizing the Omicron variant. It appears there is conflicting data on whether the boosters are capable of doing so.

---

From yesterday:
https://fee.org/articles/cdc-natural-immunity-offered-stronger-protection-against-covid-than-vaccines-during-delta-wave/

Vaccines are very good protection against infection for about 6-8 months, at which time data show they clearly become a liability against infection. They do continue to provide improved outcomes against serious disease.

DC chooses to maintain laser focus on the 2nd sentence, and studiously ignores the 1st.

---

I know many people who got Covid 2x. Natural immunity doesn't do much either. We are f'd until a better vaccine come out.

---

Except that second infections, like infections among vaccinated individuals, tend not to have anything near the level of seriousness of first infections of unvaccinated individuals.

D. C. Bear said:

---

Ghostrider said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Mothra said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

The Harvard article certainly supports my statement:

"The results of this study, reported in the journal Cell, indicate that traditional dosing regimens of COVID-19 vaccines available in the United States do not produce antibodies capable of recognizing and neutralizing the Omicron variant."

The second article calls into question whether the booster has any effect and concluded it does not.

---

The first article concluded that the booster did have an effect.

"We detected very little neutralization of the Omicron variant pseudovirus when we used samples taken from people who were recently vaccinated with two doses of mRNA vaccine or one dose of Johnson & Johnson," says Balazs. "But individuals who received three doses of mRNA vaccine had very significant neutralization against the Omicron variant."

Did you read the whole article?

Of course, this is also a lab based study that, according to the article, looked at antibody response. It did not mention any other parts of the immune system.

---

Against severe disease. Not against transmission, which if you will read my post, is what I stated.

---

And now you're just making stuff up.

---

I'm sure the irony of this statement is lost on you.

Does the article I posted show that traditional dosing regimens of COVID-19 vaccines available in the United States produce antibodies capable of recognizing and neutralizing the Omicron variant or not?

---

Does that same study find significant neutralizing antibodies following a booster? (Yes, it does, which would make your claim that the vaccines do "literally nothing" to stop transmission rather dubious if one assumed that the presence of neutralizing antibodies would lessen transmission, which appears to be an assumption you have made by claiming that the absence of neutralizing antibodies is conclusive evidence that the vaccines do not provide any protection against infection).

---

It's only dubious to those who can't read. The article I quoted says the COVID-19 vaccines available in the United States do not produce antibodies capable of recognizing and neutralizing the Omicron variant. It appears there is conflicting data on whether the boosters are capable of doing so.

---

From yesterday:
https://fee.org/articles/cdc-natural-immunity-offered-stronger-protection-against-covid-than-vaccines-during-delta-wave/

Vaccines are very good protection against infection for about 6-8 months, at which time data show they clearly become a liability against infection. They do continue to provide improved outcomes against serious disease.

DC chooses to maintain laser focus on the 2nd sentence, and studiously ignores the 1st.

---

I know many people who got Covid 2x. Natural immunity doesn't do much either. We are f'd until a better vaccine come out.

---

Except that second infections, like infections among vaccinated individuals, tend not to have anything near the level of seriousness of first infections of unvaccinated individuals.

---

Well my friends now that got it 6 mos ago have it much worse than the first time. They are both unvaccinated.

Like you, getting vaccinated is a no brainer imo.

D. C. Bear said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

The macro numbers are all you need to review. The studies are theories not confirmations. Statistical outcomes provide the probabilities and trends. This desperate clinging to vaccine efficacy on spread has become comical. Stick with the reductions in hospitalization and death which have statistical support. However we are on a slow regression to the mean there as the category of "breakthrough deaths" is increasing at a rate greater than non-vaxxed deaths which remain consistent comparatively.

---

There is no "clinging" here. It has been readily apparent for some time that omicron spreads much more easily in vaccinated populations than previous variants. However, there is still evidence that the vaccines, particularly among those with boosters, do reduce infections (and not just hospitalizations and deaths) compared with unvaccinated populations. This is what the data say at this point.

It is also apparent that, thankfully, Omicron infections tend to be less severe in general than previous variants, and may be even less severe among vaccinated individuals, as recent Swiss data seems to show.

---

Flu infects 10-15% of the population on a normal year.
Omicron is on pace to infect 50% of the population. This is unprecedented in our history

Osodecentx said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

The macro numbers are all you need to review. The studies are theories not confirmations. Statistical outcomes provide the probabilities and trends. This desperate clinging to vaccine efficacy on spread has become comical. Stick with the reductions in hospitalization and death which have statistical support. However we are on a slow regression to the mean there as the category of "breakthrough deaths" is increasing at a rate greater than non-vaxxed deaths which remain consistent comparatively.

---

There is no "clinging" here. It has been readily apparent for some time that omicron spreads much more easily in vaccinated populations than previous variants. However, there is still evidence that the vaccines, particularly among those with boosters, do reduce infections (and not just hospitalizations and deaths) compared with unvaccinated populations. This is what the data say at this point.

It is also apparent that, thankfully, Omicron infections tend to be less severe in general than previous variants, and may be even less severe among vaccinated individuals, as recent Swiss data seems to show.

---

Flu infects 10-15% of the population on a normal year.
Omicron is on pace to infect 50% of the population. This is unprecedented in our history

---

Adults tend to get 2-4 colds a year. These colds are sometimes caused by a coronavirus so I am not sure a 50 percent infection rate itself would be unprecedented. Of course, this one is a lot deadlier than most.

ATL Bear said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

The macro numbers are all you need to review. The studies are theories not confirmations. Statistical outcomes provide the probabilities and trends. This desperate clinging to vaccine efficacy on spread has become comical. Stick with the reductions in hospitalization and death which have statistical support. However we are on a slow regression to the mean there as the category of "breakthrough deaths" is increasing at a rate greater than non-vaxxed deaths which remain consistent comparatively.

---

There is no "clinging" here. It has been readily apparent for some time that omicron spreads much more easily in vaccinated populations than previous variants. However, there is still evidence that the vaccines, particularly among those with boosters, do reduce infections (and not just hospitalizations and deaths) compared with unvaccinated populations. This is what the data say at this point.

It is also apparent that, thankfully, Omicron infections tend to be less severe in general than previous variants, and may be even less severe among vaccinated individuals, as recent Swiss data seems to show.

---

It won't matter because you want to believe what you want to, but I'll give you a simple example, which you're welcome to see the multitude of additional examples in the US or globally. Despite Texas having a vaccination rate 20% lower than New York, Texas also has a 15% lower case (infection) rate than New York and even a lower death rate (significant). Now if you start the analysis from when vaccines began their effect, the case/infection rates remained similar, but the death rates changed comparatively. That's why I've said there has been a statistical impact to severe outcomes since vaccines, but nothing material on infections. See the forest not just some trees they want you to look at.

This includes pre Omicron.

---

It is not a matter of me "believing what I want to." The analysis of the numbers that you offer does not answer whether vaccines prevent infections. To answer that question, one needs to look at the case rates between the vaccinated and unvaccinated groups. In Texas, it is clear that vaccination status is very strongly associated with infection status.

https://www.dshs.texas.gov/immunize/covid19/data/cases-and-deaths-by-vaccination-status-11082021.pdf

Jan. To Sept. 2021 saw case rate of 14,000 per 100,000 among unvaccinated individuals and 300 per 100,000 among vaccinated individuals. To explain these vastly different case rate by something other than vaccination status is going to be a task that your forrest cannot do. It is going to take some time to see what protection, if any, vaccines (whether two-dose or three) give against omicron infection, but it is clearly much lower than against previous variants based on early data.

Ghostrider said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

Ghostrider said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Mothra said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

The Harvard article certainly supports my statement:

"The results of this study, reported in the journal Cell, indicate that traditional dosing regimens of COVID-19 vaccines available in the United States do not produce antibodies capable of recognizing and neutralizing the Omicron variant."

The second article calls into question whether the booster has any effect and concluded it does not.

---

The first article concluded that the booster did have an effect.

"We detected very little neutralization of the Omicron variant pseudovirus when we used samples taken from people who were recently vaccinated with two doses of mRNA vaccine or one dose of Johnson & Johnson," says Balazs. "But individuals who received three doses of mRNA vaccine had very significant neutralization against the Omicron variant."

Did you read the whole article?

Of course, this is also a lab based study that, according to the article, looked at antibody response. It did not mention any other parts of the immune system.

---

Against severe disease. Not against transmission, which if you will read my post, is what I stated.

---

And now you're just making stuff up.

---

I'm sure the irony of this statement is lost on you.

Does the article I posted show that traditional dosing regimens of COVID-19 vaccines available in the United States produce antibodies capable of recognizing and neutralizing the Omicron variant or not?

---

Does that same study find significant neutralizing antibodies following a booster? (Yes, it does, which would make your claim that the vaccines do "literally nothing" to stop transmission rather dubious if one assumed that the presence of neutralizing antibodies would lessen transmission, which appears to be an assumption you have made by claiming that the absence of neutralizing antibodies is conclusive evidence that the vaccines do not provide any protection against infection).

---

It's only dubious to those who can't read. The article I quoted says the COVID-19 vaccines available in the United States do not produce antibodies capable of recognizing and neutralizing the Omicron variant. It appears there is conflicting data on whether the boosters are capable of doing so.

---

From yesterday:
https://fee.org/articles/cdc-natural-immunity-offered-stronger-protection-against-covid-than-vaccines-during-delta-wave/

Vaccines are very good protection against infection for about 6-8 months, at which time data show they clearly become a liability against infection. They do continue to provide improved outcomes against serious disease.

DC chooses to maintain laser focus on the 2nd sentence, and studiously ignores the 1st.

---

I know many people who got Covid 2x. Natural immunity doesn't do much either. We are f'd until a better vaccine come out.

---

Except that second infections, like infections among vaccinated individuals, tend not to have anything near the level of seriousness of first infections of unvaccinated individuals.

---

Well my friends now that got it 6 mos ago have it much worse than the first time. They are both unvaccinated.

Like you, getting vaccinated is a no brainer imo.

---

Published studies out in the last few days show that natural immunity is superior to any protection afforded by the vaccine. It is one of the reasons why countries are starting to ease vaccine and mask mandates.

Of course, my doctor has been saying this from the very beginning.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/natural-immunity-was-more-potent-than-vaccines-during-us-delta-wave-study/

https://www.euronews.com/next/2022/01/20/natural-immunity-against-covid-lowered-risk-more-than-vaccines-against-delta-variant-new-s

When you are dealing with a virus that mutates constantly, vaccines will become outdated pretty quickly.

D. C. Bear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

The Harvard article certainly supports my statement:

"The results of this study, reported in the journal Cell, indicate that traditional dosing regimens of COVID-19 vaccines available in the United States do not produce antibodies capable of recognizing and neutralizing the Omicron variant."

The second article calls into question whether the booster has any effect and concluded it does not.

---

The first article concluded that the booster did have an effect.

"We detected very little neutralization of the Omicron variant pseudovirus when we used samples taken from people who were recently vaccinated with two doses of mRNA vaccine or one dose of Johnson & Johnson," says Balazs. "But individuals who received three doses of mRNA vaccine had very significant neutralization against the Omicron variant."

Did you read the whole article?

Of course, this is also a lab based study that, according to the article, looked at antibody response. It did not mention any other parts of the immune system.

---

Against severe disease. Not against transmission, which if you will read my post, is what I stated.

---

And now you're just making stuff up.

---

I'm sure the irony of this statement is lost on you.

Does the article I posted show that traditional dosing regimens of COVID-19 vaccines available in the United States produce antibodies capable of recognizing and neutralizing the Omicron variant or not?

---

Does that same study find significant neutralizing antibodies following a booster? (Yes, it does, which would make your claim that the vaccines do "literally nothing" to stop transmission rather dubious if one assumed that the presence of neutralizing antibodies would lessen transmission, which appears to be an assumption you have made by claiming that the absence of neutralizing antibodies is conclusive evidence that the vaccines do not provide any protection against infection).

---

It's only dubious to those who can't read. The article I quoted says the COVID-19 vaccines available in the United States do not produce antibodies capable of recognizing and neutralizing the Omicron variant. It appears there is conflicting data on whether the boosters are capable of doing so.

---

Your argument is dubious to anyone who can understand what they are reading. Again, one of the articles you quoted is a lab study looking at antibodies. It does not look at the effect of any other part of the immune system. Because it is a lab study that looks at a portion of the immune response to a proxy for the actual virus, it is not possible to draw firm conclusions from that study about whether the vaccines, in any dose, would reduce the chances of becoming infected with a particular variant under real world conditions.

The other study you cited is a case study of seven Germans in South Africa. It not not allow us to draw the conclusions you want to draw from it.

---

What is dubious is to suggest that a vaccine, whose goal is to stimulate your immune system to produce antibodies to fight COVID, provides protection despite the fact the antibodies it creates are not capable of recognizing and neutralizing the Omicron variant.

D. C. Bear said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

The macro numbers are all you need to review. The studies are theories not confirmations. Statistical outcomes provide the probabilities and trends. This desperate clinging to vaccine efficacy on spread has become comical. Stick with the reductions in hospitalization and death which have statistical support. However we are on a slow regression to the mean there as the category of "breakthrough deaths" is increasing at a rate greater than non-vaxxed deaths which remain consistent comparatively.

---

There is no "clinging" here. It has been readily apparent for some time that omicron spreads much more easily in vaccinated populations than previous variants. However, there is still evidence that the vaccines, particularly among those with boosters, do reduce infections (and not just hospitalizations and deaths) compared with unvaccinated populations. This is what the data say at this point.

It is also apparent that, thankfully, Omicron infections tend to be less severe in general than previous variants, and may be even less severe among vaccinated individuals, as recent Swiss data seems to show.

---

It won't matter because you want to believe what you want to, but I'll give you a simple example, which you're welcome to see the multitude of additional examples in the US or globally. Despite Texas having a vaccination rate 20% lower than New York, Texas also has a 15% lower case (infection) rate than New York and even a lower death rate (significant). Now if you start the analysis from when vaccines began their effect, the case/infection rates remained similar, but the death rates changed comparatively. That's why I've said there has been a statistical impact to severe outcomes since vaccines, but nothing material on infections. See the forest not just some trees they want you to look at.

This includes pre Omicron.

---

It is not a matter of me "believing what I want to." The analysis of the numbers that you offer does not answer whether vaccines prevent infections. To answer that question, one needs to look at the case rates between the vaccinated and unvaccinated groups. In Texas, it is clear that vaccination status is very strongly associated with infection status.

https://www.dshs.texas.gov/immunize/covid19/data/cases-and-deaths-by-vaccination-status-11082021.pdf

Jan. To Sept. 2021 saw case rate of 14,000 per 100,000 among unvaccinated individuals and 300 per 100,000 among vaccinated individuals. To explain these vastly different case rate by something other than vaccination status is going to be a task that your forrest cannot do. It is going to take some time to see what protection, if any, vaccines (whether two-dose or three) give against omicron infection, but it is clearly much lower than against previous variants based on early data.

---

Perhaps that was the case prior to the Omicron variant. It does not appear to be the case any longer.

Another article on the ineffectiveness of the vaccine (and boosters) to prevent infection:

https://fortune.com/2022/01/17/fourth-dose-pfizer-biontech-covid-vaccine-omicron-israel/

Mothra said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

The Harvard article certainly supports my statement:

"The results of this study, reported in the journal Cell, indicate that traditional dosing regimens of COVID-19 vaccines available in the United States do not produce antibodies capable of recognizing and neutralizing the Omicron variant."

The second article calls into question whether the booster has any effect and concluded it does not.

---

The first article concluded that the booster did have an effect.

"We detected very little neutralization of the Omicron variant pseudovirus when we used samples taken from people who were recently vaccinated with two doses of mRNA vaccine or one dose of Johnson & Johnson," says Balazs. "But individuals who received three doses of mRNA vaccine had very significant neutralization against the Omicron variant."

Did you read the whole article?

Of course, this is also a lab based study that, according to the article, looked at antibody response. It did not mention any other parts of the immune system.

---

Against severe disease. Not against transmission, which if you will read my post, is what I stated.

---

And now you're just making stuff up.

---

I'm sure the irony of this statement is lost on you.

Does the article I posted show that traditional dosing regimens of COVID-19 vaccines available in the United States produce antibodies capable of recognizing and neutralizing the Omicron variant or not?

---

Does that same study find significant neutralizing antibodies following a booster? (Yes, it does, which would make your claim that the vaccines do "literally nothing" to stop transmission rather dubious if one assumed that the presence of neutralizing antibodies would lessen transmission, which appears to be an assumption you have made by claiming that the absence of neutralizing antibodies is conclusive evidence that the vaccines do not provide any protection against infection).

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It's only dubious to those who can't read. The article I quoted says the COVID-19 vaccines available in the United States do not produce antibodies capable of recognizing and neutralizing the Omicron variant. It appears there is conflicting data on whether the boosters are capable of doing so.

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Your argument is dubious to anyone who can understand what they are reading. Again, one of the articles you quoted is a lab study looking at antibodies. It does not look at the effect of any other part of the immune system. Because it is a lab study that looks at a portion of the immune response to a proxy for the actual virus, it is not possible to draw firm conclusions from that study about whether the vaccines, in any dose, would reduce the chances of becoming infected with a particular variant under real world conditions.

The other study you cited is a case study of seven Germans in South Africa. It not not allow us to draw the conclusions you want to draw from it.

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What is dubious is to suggest that a vaccine, whose goal is to stimulate your immune system to produce antibodies to fight COVID, provides protection despite the fact the antibodies it creates are not capable of recognizing and neutralizing the Omicron variant.

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The paper you cited not only suggests it but says it is likely.