It requires a higher level of thinking to answer my hypoOldbear83 said:
No one's 'having trouble with the hypothetical', it's just so EMO that the room thinks you may need counseling to get over your issues.
Biden mostly right on Ukraine
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Last: 3 yr ago by Gold Tron
Putin has been insulating the Russian economy from vulnerability to sanctions for at least a decade. I agree that Trump generally did a better job dealing with Russia than Obama or Biden, but that doesn't necessarily mean he could have avoided this. Contrary to what you all are assuming, the whole world doesn't revolve around our choice of leader. In Ukraine or elsewhere, any president can always face a crisis not of his own making.RMF5630 said:Sam Lowry said:That's conjecture. Trump's temperament is fact. Putin has been preparing this move for a long time. If it weren't this it could always be some other crisis. A president needs to be fit for office in any situation, not just the ones you believe most likely.Mothra said:Sam Lowry said:Well said. The thought of Trump as president in this situation is horrifying.Osodecentx said:Trump's temperament isn't suited for this situation. He is impetuous and doesn't listen to advisors who know more about a subject that he. He is erratic and believes he knows more experts because he is rich. He still claims he won the 2020 election and listened to dingbat layers and Flynn for advice, for crying out loud.Oldbear83 said:
Oso:: " I'm more comfortable with Biden than Trump, "so far"."
For what reason? Seriously, what evidence is there that Trump would have messed this up as poorly as Biden, much less worse, that you are "more comfortable" with a man who has literally fumbled every major decision up to now?
Biden has made a number of mistakes before Putin invaded. If you want to argue that Trump would have handled this situation better, I might agree. However, we're here and I prefer Biden to Trump.
Lol.
Highly unlikely we would be in this situation if Trump was president.
I agree with Mothra here. Preparing? 4 years was not enough? Sorry, you can plan anything in a 4 year window. You are right on temperament, Putin knew Trump would act in tangible ways. He just didn't know how he would react. He knew exactly what Biden would and more importantly wouldn't do.
Not true, we all see where you are going. We just chose not to go there.Osodecentx said:It requires a higher level of thinking to answer my hypoOldbear83 said:
No one's 'having trouble with the hypothetical', it's just so EMO that the room thinks you may need counseling to get over your issues.
That which does not kill me, will try again and get nastier
Sam Lowry said:Putin has been insulating the Russian economy from vulnerability to sanctions for at least a decade. I agree that Trump generally did a better job dealing with Russia than Obama or Biden, but that doesn't necessarily mean he could have avoided this. Contrary to what you all are assuming, the whole world doesn't revolve around our choice of leader. In Ukraine or elsewhere, any president can always face a crisis not of his own making.RMF5630 said:Sam Lowry said:That's conjecture. Trump's temperament is fact. Putin has been preparing this move for a long time. If it weren't this it could always be some other crisis. A president needs to be fit for office in any situation, not just the ones you believe most likely.Mothra said:Sam Lowry said:Well said. The thought of Trump as president in this situation is horrifying.Osodecentx said:Trump's temperament isn't suited for this situation. He is impetuous and doesn't listen to advisors who know more about a subject that he. He is erratic and believes he knows more experts because he is rich. He still claims he won the 2020 election and listened to dingbat layers and Flynn for advice, for crying out loud.Oldbear83 said:
Oso:: " I'm more comfortable with Biden than Trump, "so far"."
For what reason? Seriously, what evidence is there that Trump would have messed this up as poorly as Biden, much less worse, that you are "more comfortable" with a man who has literally fumbled every major decision up to now?
Biden has made a number of mistakes before Putin invaded. If you want to argue that Trump would have handled this situation better, I might agree. However, we're here and I prefer Biden to Trump.
Lol.
Highly unlikely we would be in this situation if Trump was president.
I agree with Mothra here. Preparing? 4 years was not enough? Sorry, you can plan anything in a 4 year window. You are right on temperament, Putin knew Trump would act in tangible ways. He just didn't know how he would react. He knew exactly what Biden would and more importantly wouldn't do.
I agree this is not of Bidens making, but his presence didn't deter it. This is all on Putin. Trump has the unpredictable thing. *******, unpredictable. That worked in Foreign Relations. He wasn't liked but not fuxked with either.
RMF5630 said:Sam Lowry said:Putin has been insulating the Russian economy from vulnerability to sanctions for at least a decade. I agree that Trump generally did a better job dealing with Russia than Obama or Biden, but that doesn't necessarily mean he could have avoided this. Contrary to what you all are assuming, the whole world doesn't revolve around our choice of leader. In Ukraine or elsewhere, any president can always face a crisis not of his own making.RMF5630 said:Sam Lowry said:That's conjecture. Trump's temperament is fact. Putin has been preparing this move for a long time. If it weren't this it could always be some other crisis. A president needs to be fit for office in any situation, not just the ones you believe most likely.Mothra said:Sam Lowry said:Well said. The thought of Trump as president in this situation is horrifying.Osodecentx said:Trump's temperament isn't suited for this situation. He is impetuous and doesn't listen to advisors who know more about a subject that he. He is erratic and believes he knows more experts because he is rich. He still claims he won the 2020 election and listened to dingbat layers and Flynn for advice, for crying out loud.Oldbear83 said:
Oso:: " I'm more comfortable with Biden than Trump, "so far"."
For what reason? Seriously, what evidence is there that Trump would have messed this up as poorly as Biden, much less worse, that you are "more comfortable" with a man who has literally fumbled every major decision up to now?
Biden has made a number of mistakes before Putin invaded. If you want to argue that Trump would have handled this situation better, I might agree. However, we're here and I prefer Biden to Trump.
Lol.
Highly unlikely we would be in this situation if Trump was president.
I agree with Mothra here. Preparing? 4 years was not enough? Sorry, you can plan anything in a 4 year window. You are right on temperament, Putin knew Trump would act in tangible ways. He just didn't know how he would react. He knew exactly what Biden would and more importantly wouldn't do.
I agree this is not of Bidens making, but his presence didn't deter it. This is all on Putin. Trump has the unpredictable thing. *******, unpredictable. That worked in Foreign Relations. He wasn't liked but not fuxked with either.
He green-lit it.
"I think what you're going to see is that Russia will be held accountable if it invades, and it depends on what it does.
It's one thing if it's a minor incursion and we end up having to fight about what to do and not to do." - Joe Biden
1. You're contradicting your earlier argument that Putin isn't a rational actor. If he's not rational, he's not capable of being deterred.RMF5630 said:Sam Lowry said:Putin has been insulating the Russian economy from vulnerability to sanctions for at least a decade. I agree that Trump generally did a better job dealing with Russia than Obama or Biden, but that doesn't necessarily mean he could have avoided this. Contrary to what you all are assuming, the whole world doesn't revolve around our choice of leader. In Ukraine or elsewhere, any president can always face a crisis not of his own making.RMF5630 said:Sam Lowry said:That's conjecture. Trump's temperament is fact. Putin has been preparing this move for a long time. If it weren't this it could always be some other crisis. A president needs to be fit for office in any situation, not just the ones you believe most likely.Mothra said:Sam Lowry said:Well said. The thought of Trump as president in this situation is horrifying.Osodecentx said:Trump's temperament isn't suited for this situation. He is impetuous and doesn't listen to advisors who know more about a subject that he. He is erratic and believes he knows more experts because he is rich. He still claims he won the 2020 election and listened to dingbat layers and Flynn for advice, for crying out loud.Oldbear83 said:
Oso:: " I'm more comfortable with Biden than Trump, "so far"."
For what reason? Seriously, what evidence is there that Trump would have messed this up as poorly as Biden, much less worse, that you are "more comfortable" with a man who has literally fumbled every major decision up to now?
Biden has made a number of mistakes before Putin invaded. If you want to argue that Trump would have handled this situation better, I might agree. However, we're here and I prefer Biden to Trump.
Lol.
Highly unlikely we would be in this situation if Trump was president.
I agree with Mothra here. Preparing? 4 years was not enough? Sorry, you can plan anything in a 4 year window. You are right on temperament, Putin knew Trump would act in tangible ways. He just didn't know how he would react. He knew exactly what Biden would and more importantly wouldn't do.
I agree this is not of Bidens making, but his presence didn't deter it. This is all on Putin. Trump has the unpredictable thing. *******, unpredictable. That worked in Foreign Relations. He wasn't liked but not fuxked with either.
2. If Trump deterred Russia from invading, then by your logic Obama and so far Biden have deterred China from attacking Taiwan. This begs the question why China is scared of Biden but Russia isn't.
3. Unpredictability is not a magical solution to all problems. Particularly when nuclear war is at stake, we can't just assume things will always go our way just because Trump is there. Unpredictability is one of many weapons, and it's one that cuts both ways.
4. None of this is relevant to the hypothetical, which correctly assumes that a major foreign policy crisis could occur during a Trump administration despite his best efforts.
Sam Lowry said:1. You're contradicting your earlier argument that Putin isn't a rational actor. If he's not rational, he's not capable of being deterred.RMF5630 said:Sam Lowry said:Putin has been insulating the Russian economy from vulnerability to sanctions for at least a decade. I agree that Trump generally did a better job dealing with Russia than Obama or Biden, but that doesn't necessarily mean he could have avoided this. Contrary to what you all are assuming, the whole world doesn't revolve around our choice of leader. In Ukraine or elsewhere, any president can always face a crisis not of his own making.RMF5630 said:Sam Lowry said:That's conjecture. Trump's temperament is fact. Putin has been preparing this move for a long time. If it weren't this it could always be some other crisis. A president needs to be fit for office in any situation, not just the ones you believe most likely.Mothra said:Sam Lowry said:Well said. The thought of Trump as president in this situation is horrifying.Osodecentx said:Trump's temperament isn't suited for this situation. He is impetuous and doesn't listen to advisors who know more about a subject that he. He is erratic and believes he knows more experts because he is rich. He still claims he won the 2020 election and listened to dingbat layers and Flynn for advice, for crying out loud.Oldbear83 said:
Oso:: " I'm more comfortable with Biden than Trump, "so far"."
For what reason? Seriously, what evidence is there that Trump would have messed this up as poorly as Biden, much less worse, that you are "more comfortable" with a man who has literally fumbled every major decision up to now?
Biden has made a number of mistakes before Putin invaded. If you want to argue that Trump would have handled this situation better, I might agree. However, we're here and I prefer Biden to Trump.
Lol.
Highly unlikely we would be in this situation if Trump was president.
I agree with Mothra here. Preparing? 4 years was not enough? Sorry, you can plan anything in a 4 year window. You are right on temperament, Putin knew Trump would act in tangible ways. He just didn't know how he would react. He knew exactly what Biden would and more importantly wouldn't do.
I agree this is not of Bidens making, but his presence didn't deter it. This is all on Putin. Trump has the unpredictable thing. *******, unpredictable. That worked in Foreign Relations. He wasn't liked but not fuxked with either.
2. If Trump deterred Russia from invading, then by your logic Obama and so far Biden have deterred China from attacking Taiwan. This begs the question why China is scared of Biden but Russia isn't.
3. Unpredictability is not a magical solution to all problems. Particularly when nuclear war is at stake, we can't just assume things will always go our way just because Trump is there. Unpredictability is one of many weapons, and it's one that cuts both ways.
4. None of this is relevant to the hypothetical, which correctly assumes that a major foreign policy crisis could occur during a Trump administration despite his best efforts.
Ok Sam. Here we go. Conditions change. Putin before he did anything could be dissuaded. Such as in 2017 - 20.
Once he is in, he can't just stop or change course.
You understand how conditions change and how he can be too far invested to just say stop. Get it. The further he goes, the less influence anyone will have short of force. Seems pretty straight forward, surprised you and your buddy can't grasp it.
Think of poker, once you put your chips in, you can't take them out...better?
You and Mothra must live a tough life if you have to stick to every position even if conditions change.
Finally, could but didn't. That is tough to get around.
Can you afford to lose all of them? We're not all in nowRMF5630 said:Sam Lowry said:1. You're contradicting your earlier argument that Putin isn't a rational actor. If he's not rational, he's not capable of being deterred.RMF5630 said:Sam Lowry said:Putin has been insulating the Russian economy from vulnerability to sanctions for at least a decade. I agree that Trump generally did a better job dealing with Russia than Obama or Biden, but that doesn't necessarily mean he could have avoided this. Contrary to what you all are assuming, the whole world doesn't revolve around our choice of leader. In Ukraine or elsewhere, any president can always face a crisis not of his own making.RMF5630 said:Sam Lowry said:That's conjecture. Trump's temperament is fact. Putin has been preparing this move for a long time. If it weren't this it could always be some other crisis. A president needs to be fit for office in any situation, not just the ones you believe most likely.Mothra said:Sam Lowry said:Well said. The thought of Trump as president in this situation is horrifying.Osodecentx said:Trump's temperament isn't suited for this situation. He is impetuous and doesn't listen to advisors who know more about a subject that he. He is erratic and believes he knows more experts because he is rich. He still claims he won the 2020 election and listened to dingbat layers and Flynn for advice, for crying out loud.Oldbear83 said:
Oso:: " I'm more comfortable with Biden than Trump, "so far"."
For what reason? Seriously, what evidence is there that Trump would have messed this up as poorly as Biden, much less worse, that you are "more comfortable" with a man who has literally fumbled every major decision up to now?
Biden has made a number of mistakes before Putin invaded. If you want to argue that Trump would have handled this situation better, I might agree. However, we're here and I prefer Biden to Trump.
Lol.
Highly unlikely we would be in this situation if Trump was president.
I agree with Mothra here. Preparing? 4 years was not enough? Sorry, you can plan anything in a 4 year window. You are right on temperament, Putin knew Trump would act in tangible ways. He just didn't know how he would react. He knew exactly what Biden would and more importantly wouldn't do.
I agree this is not of Bidens making, but his presence didn't deter it. This is all on Putin. Trump has the unpredictable thing. *******, unpredictable. That worked in Foreign Relations. He wasn't liked but not fuxked with either.
2. If Trump deterred Russia from invading, then by your logic Obama and so far Biden have deterred China from attacking Taiwan. This begs the question why China is scared of Biden but Russia isn't.
3. Unpredictability is not a magical solution to all problems. Particularly when nuclear war is at stake, we can't just assume things will always go our way just because Trump is there. Unpredictability is one of many weapons, and it's one that cuts both ways.
4. None of this is relevant to the hypothetical, which correctly assumes that a major foreign policy crisis could occur during a Trump administration despite his best efforts.
Think of poker, once you put your chips in, you can't take them out...better?
Since we're using a poker analogy, this situation looks like the can decide to walk away and not play anymore after a point, but if we look weak in this matter we'll walk away from the losing hand only to get mugged on teh way home.Osodecentx said:Can you afford to lose all of them? We're not all in nowRMF5630 said:Sam Lowry said:1. You're contradicting your earlier argument that Putin isn't a rational actor. If he's not rational, he's not capable of being deterred.RMF5630 said:Sam Lowry said:Putin has been insulating the Russian economy from vulnerability to sanctions for at least a decade. I agree that Trump generally did a better job dealing with Russia than Obama or Biden, but that doesn't necessarily mean he could have avoided this. Contrary to what you all are assuming, the whole world doesn't revolve around our choice of leader. In Ukraine or elsewhere, any president can always face a crisis not of his own making.RMF5630 said:Sam Lowry said:That's conjecture. Trump's temperament is fact. Putin has been preparing this move for a long time. If it weren't this it could always be some other crisis. A president needs to be fit for office in any situation, not just the ones you believe most likely.Mothra said:Sam Lowry said:Well said. The thought of Trump as president in this situation is horrifying.Osodecentx said:Trump's temperament isn't suited for this situation. He is impetuous and doesn't listen to advisors who know more about a subject that he. He is erratic and believes he knows more experts because he is rich. He still claims he won the 2020 election and listened to dingbat layers and Flynn for advice, for crying out loud.Oldbear83 said:
Oso:: " I'm more comfortable with Biden than Trump, "so far"."
For what reason? Seriously, what evidence is there that Trump would have messed this up as poorly as Biden, much less worse, that you are "more comfortable" with a man who has literally fumbled every major decision up to now?
Biden has made a number of mistakes before Putin invaded. If you want to argue that Trump would have handled this situation better, I might agree. However, we're here and I prefer Biden to Trump.
Lol.
Highly unlikely we would be in this situation if Trump was president.
I agree with Mothra here. Preparing? 4 years was not enough? Sorry, you can plan anything in a 4 year window. You are right on temperament, Putin knew Trump would act in tangible ways. He just didn't know how he would react. He knew exactly what Biden would and more importantly wouldn't do.
I agree this is not of Bidens making, but his presence didn't deter it. This is all on Putin. Trump has the unpredictable thing. *******, unpredictable. That worked in Foreign Relations. He wasn't liked but not fuxked with either.
2. If Trump deterred Russia from invading, then by your logic Obama and so far Biden have deterred China from attacking Taiwan. This begs the question why China is scared of Biden but Russia isn't.
3. Unpredictability is not a magical solution to all problems. Particularly when nuclear war is at stake, we can't just assume things will always go our way just because Trump is there. Unpredictability is one of many weapons, and it's one that cuts both ways.
4. None of this is relevant to the hypothetical, which correctly assumes that a major foreign policy crisis could occur during a Trump administration despite his best efforts.
Think of poker, once you put your chips in, you can't take them out...better?
We are "all in" if you think it through.
It's not just Putin that is a threat, after Biden's demonstration of his policies and convictions. Venezuela, Iran and China, just to name the obvious next up, are all planning ways to take us for marks.
The real price of Biden's "leadership" is yet to be known.
That which does not kill me, will try again and get nastier
Osodecentx said:Can you afford to lose all of them? We're not all in nowRMF5630 said:Sam Lowry said:1. You're contradicting your earlier argument that Putin isn't a rational actor. If he's not rational, he's not capable of being deterred.RMF5630 said:Sam Lowry said:Putin has been insulating the Russian economy from vulnerability to sanctions for at least a decade. I agree that Trump generally did a better job dealing with Russia than Obama or Biden, but that doesn't necessarily mean he could have avoided this. Contrary to what you all are assuming, the whole world doesn't revolve around our choice of leader. In Ukraine or elsewhere, any president can always face a crisis not of his own making.RMF5630 said:Sam Lowry said:That's conjecture. Trump's temperament is fact. Putin has been preparing this move for a long time. If it weren't this it could always be some other crisis. A president needs to be fit for office in any situation, not just the ones you believe most likely.Mothra said:Sam Lowry said:Well said. The thought of Trump as president in this situation is horrifying.Osodecentx said:Trump's temperament isn't suited for this situation. He is impetuous and doesn't listen to advisors who know more about a subject that he. He is erratic and believes he knows more experts because he is rich. He still claims he won the 2020 election and listened to dingbat layers and Flynn for advice, for crying out loud.Oldbear83 said:
Oso:: " I'm more comfortable with Biden than Trump, "so far"."
For what reason? Seriously, what evidence is there that Trump would have messed this up as poorly as Biden, much less worse, that you are "more comfortable" with a man who has literally fumbled every major decision up to now?
Biden has made a number of mistakes before Putin invaded. If you want to argue that Trump would have handled this situation better, I might agree. However, we're here and I prefer Biden to Trump.
Lol.
Highly unlikely we would be in this situation if Trump was president.
I agree with Mothra here. Preparing? 4 years was not enough? Sorry, you can plan anything in a 4 year window. You are right on temperament, Putin knew Trump would act in tangible ways. He just didn't know how he would react. He knew exactly what Biden would and more importantly wouldn't do.
I agree this is not of Bidens making, but his presence didn't deter it. This is all on Putin. Trump has the unpredictable thing. *******, unpredictable. That worked in Foreign Relations. He wasn't liked but not fuxked with either.
2. If Trump deterred Russia from invading, then by your logic Obama and so far Biden have deterred China from attacking Taiwan. This begs the question why China is scared of Biden but Russia isn't.
3. Unpredictability is not a magical solution to all problems. Particularly when nuclear war is at stake, we can't just assume things will always go our way just because Trump is there. Unpredictability is one of many weapons, and it's one that cuts both ways.
4. None of this is relevant to the hypothetical, which correctly assumes that a major foreign policy crisis could occur during a Trump administration despite his best efforts.
Think of poker, once you put your chips in, you can't take them out...better?
But Putin is. He can't backtrack. At the beginning he was a rational chess player, now he has lost that luxury. He can't descalate after everything that happened. That is why my position has changed on our influence over his actions.
US is no way near all in.
Please read RMF's post below. According to you both, Russia and USA are "all in" and can't walk away. If this is true, how can the crisis be resolved short of cataclysm?Oldbear83 said:Since we're using a poker analogy, this situation looks like the can decide to walk away and not play anymore after a point, but if we look weak in this matter we'll walk away from the losing hand only to get mugged on teh way home.Osodecentx said:Can you afford to lose all of them? We're not all in nowRMF5630 said:Sam Lowry said:1. You're contradicting your earlier argument that Putin isn't a rational actor. If he's not rational, he's not capable of being deterred.RMF5630 said:Sam Lowry said:Putin has been insulating the Russian economy from vulnerability to sanctions for at least a decade. I agree that Trump generally did a better job dealing with Russia than Obama or Biden, but that doesn't necessarily mean he could have avoided this. Contrary to what you all are assuming, the whole world doesn't revolve around our choice of leader. In Ukraine or elsewhere, any president can always face a crisis not of his own making.RMF5630 said:Sam Lowry said:That's conjecture. Trump's temperament is fact. Putin has been preparing this move for a long time. If it weren't this it could always be some other crisis. A president needs to be fit for office in any situation, not just the ones you believe most likely.Mothra said:Sam Lowry said:Well said. The thought of Trump as president in this situation is horrifying.Osodecentx said:Trump's temperament isn't suited for this situation. He is impetuous and doesn't listen to advisors who know more about a subject that he. He is erratic and believes he knows more experts because he is rich. He still claims he won the 2020 election and listened to dingbat layers and Flynn for advice, for crying out loud.Oldbear83 said:
Oso:: " I'm more comfortable with Biden than Trump, "so far"."
For what reason? Seriously, what evidence is there that Trump would have messed this up as poorly as Biden, much less worse, that you are "more comfortable" with a man who has literally fumbled every major decision up to now?
Biden has made a number of mistakes before Putin invaded. If you want to argue that Trump would have handled this situation better, I might agree. However, we're here and I prefer Biden to Trump.
Lol.
Highly unlikely we would be in this situation if Trump was president.
I agree with Mothra here. Preparing? 4 years was not enough? Sorry, you can plan anything in a 4 year window. You are right on temperament, Putin knew Trump would act in tangible ways. He just didn't know how he would react. He knew exactly what Biden would and more importantly wouldn't do.
I agree this is not of Bidens making, but his presence didn't deter it. This is all on Putin. Trump has the unpredictable thing. *******, unpredictable. That worked in Foreign Relations. He wasn't liked but not fuxked with either.
2. If Trump deterred Russia from invading, then by your logic Obama and so far Biden have deterred China from attacking Taiwan. This begs the question why China is scared of Biden but Russia isn't.
3. Unpredictability is not a magical solution to all problems. Particularly when nuclear war is at stake, we can't just assume things will always go our way just because Trump is there. Unpredictability is one of many weapons, and it's one that cuts both ways.
4. None of this is relevant to the hypothetical, which correctly assumes that a major foreign policy crisis could occur during a Trump administration despite his best efforts.
Think of poker, once you put your chips in, you can't take them out...better?
We are "all in" if you think it through.
It's not just Putin that is a threat, after Biden's demonstration of his policies and convictions. Venezuela, Iran and China, just to name the obvious next up, are all planning ways to take us for marks.
The real price of Biden's "leadership" is yet to be known.
I like how you try to excuse your complete 180-degree turn on Putin and nukes to "conditions change." Helps you save face, I guess.RMF5630 said:Sam Lowry said:1. You're contradicting your earlier argument that Putin isn't a rational actor. If he's not rational, he's not capable of being deterred.RMF5630 said:Sam Lowry said:Putin has been insulating the Russian economy from vulnerability to sanctions for at least a decade. I agree that Trump generally did a better job dealing with Russia than Obama or Biden, but that doesn't necessarily mean he could have avoided this. Contrary to what you all are assuming, the whole world doesn't revolve around our choice of leader. In Ukraine or elsewhere, any president can always face a crisis not of his own making.RMF5630 said:Sam Lowry said:That's conjecture. Trump's temperament is fact. Putin has been preparing this move for a long time. If it weren't this it could always be some other crisis. A president needs to be fit for office in any situation, not just the ones you believe most likely.Mothra said:Sam Lowry said:Well said. The thought of Trump as president in this situation is horrifying.Osodecentx said:Trump's temperament isn't suited for this situation. He is impetuous and doesn't listen to advisors who know more about a subject that he. He is erratic and believes he knows more experts because he is rich. He still claims he won the 2020 election and listened to dingbat layers and Flynn for advice, for crying out loud.Oldbear83 said:
Oso:: " I'm more comfortable with Biden than Trump, "so far"."
For what reason? Seriously, what evidence is there that Trump would have messed this up as poorly as Biden, much less worse, that you are "more comfortable" with a man who has literally fumbled every major decision up to now?
Biden has made a number of mistakes before Putin invaded. If you want to argue that Trump would have handled this situation better, I might agree. However, we're here and I prefer Biden to Trump.
Lol.
Highly unlikely we would be in this situation if Trump was president.
I agree with Mothra here. Preparing? 4 years was not enough? Sorry, you can plan anything in a 4 year window. You are right on temperament, Putin knew Trump would act in tangible ways. He just didn't know how he would react. He knew exactly what Biden would and more importantly wouldn't do.
I agree this is not of Bidens making, but his presence didn't deter it. This is all on Putin. Trump has the unpredictable thing. *******, unpredictable. That worked in Foreign Relations. He wasn't liked but not fuxked with either.
2. If Trump deterred Russia from invading, then by your logic Obama and so far Biden have deterred China from attacking Taiwan. This begs the question why China is scared of Biden but Russia isn't.
3. Unpredictability is not a magical solution to all problems. Particularly when nuclear war is at stake, we can't just assume things will always go our way just because Trump is there. Unpredictability is one of many weapons, and it's one that cuts both ways.
4. None of this is relevant to the hypothetical, which correctly assumes that a major foreign policy crisis could occur during a Trump administration despite his best efforts.
Ok Sam. Here we go. Conditions change. Putin before he did anything could be dissuaded. Such as in 2017 - 20.
Once he is in, he can't just stop or change course.
You understand how conditions change and how he can be too far invested to just say stop. Get it. The further he goes, the less influence anyone will have short of force. Seems pretty straight forward, surprised you and your buddy can't grasp it.
Think of poker, once you put your chips in, you can't take them out...better?
You and Mothra must live a tough life if you have to stick to every position even if conditions change.
Finally, could but didn't. That is tough to get around.
No conditions have changed that have caused me to re-evaluate my position that entering into a ground war with Russia over Ukraine isn't a good idea. That position - your position - remains insane.
You and most others here are arguing that unpredictability makes us immune from crisis and makes good judgment unnecessary. That's just plain crazy.RMF5630 said:Sam Lowry said:1. You're contradicting your earlier argument that Putin isn't a rational actor. If he's not rational, he's not capable of being deterred.RMF5630 said:Sam Lowry said:Putin has been insulating the Russian economy from vulnerability to sanctions for at least a decade. I agree that Trump generally did a better job dealing with Russia than Obama or Biden, but that doesn't necessarily mean he could have avoided this. Contrary to what you all are assuming, the whole world doesn't revolve around our choice of leader. In Ukraine or elsewhere, any president can always face a crisis not of his own making.RMF5630 said:Sam Lowry said:That's conjecture. Trump's temperament is fact. Putin has been preparing this move for a long time. If it weren't this it could always be some other crisis. A president needs to be fit for office in any situation, not just the ones you believe most likely.Mothra said:Sam Lowry said:Well said. The thought of Trump as president in this situation is horrifying.Osodecentx said:Trump's temperament isn't suited for this situation. He is impetuous and doesn't listen to advisors who know more about a subject that he. He is erratic and believes he knows more experts because he is rich. He still claims he won the 2020 election and listened to dingbat layers and Flynn for advice, for crying out loud.Oldbear83 said:
Oso:: " I'm more comfortable with Biden than Trump, "so far"."
For what reason? Seriously, what evidence is there that Trump would have messed this up as poorly as Biden, much less worse, that you are "more comfortable" with a man who has literally fumbled every major decision up to now?
Biden has made a number of mistakes before Putin invaded. If you want to argue that Trump would have handled this situation better, I might agree. However, we're here and I prefer Biden to Trump.
Lol.
Highly unlikely we would be in this situation if Trump was president.
I agree with Mothra here. Preparing? 4 years was not enough? Sorry, you can plan anything in a 4 year window. You are right on temperament, Putin knew Trump would act in tangible ways. He just didn't know how he would react. He knew exactly what Biden would and more importantly wouldn't do.
I agree this is not of Bidens making, but his presence didn't deter it. This is all on Putin. Trump has the unpredictable thing. *******, unpredictable. That worked in Foreign Relations. He wasn't liked but not fuxked with either.
2. If Trump deterred Russia from invading, then by your logic Obama and so far Biden have deterred China from attacking Taiwan. This begs the question why China is scared of Biden but Russia isn't.
3. Unpredictability is not a magical solution to all problems. Particularly when nuclear war is at stake, we can't just assume things will always go our way just because Trump is there. Unpredictability is one of many weapons, and it's one that cuts both ways.
4. None of this is relevant to the hypothetical, which correctly assumes that a major foreign policy crisis could occur during a Trump administration despite his best efforts.
Ok Sam. Here we go. Conditions change. Putin before he did anything could be dissuaded. Such as in 2017 - 20.
Once he is in, he can't just stop or change course.
You understand how conditions change and how he can be too far invested to just say stop. Get it. The further he goes, the less influence anyone will have short of force. Seems pretty straight forward, surprised you and your buddy can't grasp it.
Think of poker, once you put your chips in, you can't take them out...better?
You and Mothra must live a tough life if you have to stick to every position even if conditions change.
Finally, could but didn't. That is tough to get around.
Sometimes even irrational actors make decisions based on fear of reprisal (though unlike others, I don't consider Putin irrational).Sam Lowry said:1. You're contradicting your earlier argument that Putin isn't a rational actor. If he's not rational, he's not capable of being deterred.RMF5630 said:Sam Lowry said:Putin has been insulating the Russian economy from vulnerability to sanctions for at least a decade. I agree that Trump generally did a better job dealing with Russia than Obama or Biden, but that doesn't necessarily mean he could have avoided this. Contrary to what you all are assuming, the whole world doesn't revolve around our choice of leader. In Ukraine or elsewhere, any president can always face a crisis not of his own making.RMF5630 said:Sam Lowry said:That's conjecture. Trump's temperament is fact. Putin has been preparing this move for a long time. If it weren't this it could always be some other crisis. A president needs to be fit for office in any situation, not just the ones you believe most likely.Mothra said:Sam Lowry said:Well said. The thought of Trump as president in this situation is horrifying.Osodecentx said:Trump's temperament isn't suited for this situation. He is impetuous and doesn't listen to advisors who know more about a subject that he. He is erratic and believes he knows more experts because he is rich. He still claims he won the 2020 election and listened to dingbat layers and Flynn for advice, for crying out loud.Oldbear83 said:
Oso:: " I'm more comfortable with Biden than Trump, "so far"."
For what reason? Seriously, what evidence is there that Trump would have messed this up as poorly as Biden, much less worse, that you are "more comfortable" with a man who has literally fumbled every major decision up to now?
Biden has made a number of mistakes before Putin invaded. If you want to argue that Trump would have handled this situation better, I might agree. However, we're here and I prefer Biden to Trump.
Lol.
Highly unlikely we would be in this situation if Trump was president.
I agree with Mothra here. Preparing? 4 years was not enough? Sorry, you can plan anything in a 4 year window. You are right on temperament, Putin knew Trump would act in tangible ways. He just didn't know how he would react. He knew exactly what Biden would and more importantly wouldn't do.
I agree this is not of Bidens making, but his presence didn't deter it. This is all on Putin. Trump has the unpredictable thing. *******, unpredictable. That worked in Foreign Relations. He wasn't liked but not fuxked with either.
2. If Trump deterred Russia from invading, then by your logic Obama and so far Biden have deterred China from attacking Taiwan. This begs the question why China is scared of Biden but Russia isn't.
3. Unpredictability is not a magical solution to all problems. Particularly when nuclear war is at stake, we can't just assume things will always go our way just because Trump is there. Unpredictability is one of many weapons, and it's one that cuts both ways.
4. None of this is relevant to the hypothetical, which correctly assumes that a major foreign policy crisis could occur during a Trump administration despite his best efforts.
I suspect the main reason Putin left Ukraine alone during the Trump admin is Putin knew that Trump wasn't going to push for Ukraine's membership in NATO. Biden, on the other hand, has a long history with Ukraine, has been talking about that possibility for years, and in the last year has ramped up the rhetoric regarding Ukraine's membership. Clearly, that had an effect on Putin's thinking, as non-membership has been one of the reported conditions of a truce in discussions between Ukraine and Russia. What's crazy about such talk is in the late 90's, Biden recognized the provocative nature of admitting former Soviet states into NATO. Saw an interview of him from '97 saying that doing so would be dangerous and stoke tensions with Russia.
I guess after all of the butthurt over Russian interference in Trump's "stolen election," pissing off Putin wasn't such a big deal.
Again, all of this of course cuts against the narrative that Biden, with his numerous foreign policy blunders and his rhetoric that contributed to the Russian invasion, is somehow now the right man for the job, after Russian invaded. It's ridiculous.
Whoever said that it "makes us immune from crisis and makes good judgment unnecessary"? Why do you take things to the extreme and put words in others mouths?Sam Lowry said:You and most others here are arguing that unpredictability makes us immune from crisis and makes good judgment unnecessary. That's just plain crazy.RMF5630 said:Sam Lowry said:1. You're contradicting your earlier argument that Putin isn't a rational actor. If he's not rational, he's not capable of being deterred.RMF5630 said:Sam Lowry said:Putin has been insulating the Russian economy from vulnerability to sanctions for at least a decade. I agree that Trump generally did a better job dealing with Russia than Obama or Biden, but that doesn't necessarily mean he could have avoided this. Contrary to what you all are assuming, the whole world doesn't revolve around our choice of leader. In Ukraine or elsewhere, any president can always face a crisis not of his own making.RMF5630 said:Sam Lowry said:That's conjecture. Trump's temperament is fact. Putin has been preparing this move for a long time. If it weren't this it could always be some other crisis. A president needs to be fit for office in any situation, not just the ones you believe most likely.Mothra said:Sam Lowry said:Well said. The thought of Trump as president in this situation is horrifying.Osodecentx said:Trump's temperament isn't suited for this situation. He is impetuous and doesn't listen to advisors who know more about a subject that he. He is erratic and believes he knows more experts because he is rich. He still claims he won the 2020 election and listened to dingbat layers and Flynn for advice, for crying out loud.Oldbear83 said:
Oso:: " I'm more comfortable with Biden than Trump, "so far"."
For what reason? Seriously, what evidence is there that Trump would have messed this up as poorly as Biden, much less worse, that you are "more comfortable" with a man who has literally fumbled every major decision up to now?
Biden has made a number of mistakes before Putin invaded. If you want to argue that Trump would have handled this situation better, I might agree. However, we're here and I prefer Biden to Trump.
Lol.
Highly unlikely we would be in this situation if Trump was president.
I agree with Mothra here. Preparing? 4 years was not enough? Sorry, you can plan anything in a 4 year window. You are right on temperament, Putin knew Trump would act in tangible ways. He just didn't know how he would react. He knew exactly what Biden would and more importantly wouldn't do.
I agree this is not of Bidens making, but his presence didn't deter it. This is all on Putin. Trump has the unpredictable thing. *******, unpredictable. That worked in Foreign Relations. He wasn't liked but not fuxked with either.
2. If Trump deterred Russia from invading, then by your logic Obama and so far Biden have deterred China from attacking Taiwan. This begs the question why China is scared of Biden but Russia isn't.
3. Unpredictability is not a magical solution to all problems. Particularly when nuclear war is at stake, we can't just assume things will always go our way just because Trump is there. Unpredictability is one of many weapons, and it's one that cuts both ways.
4. None of this is relevant to the hypothetical, which correctly assumes that a major foreign policy crisis could occur during a Trump administration despite his best efforts.
Ok Sam. Here we go. Conditions change. Putin before he did anything could be dissuaded. Such as in 2017 - 20.
Once he is in, he can't just stop or change course.
You understand how conditions change and how he can be too far invested to just say stop. Get it. The further he goes, the less influence anyone will have short of force. Seems pretty straight forward, surprised you and your buddy can't grasp it.
Think of poker, once you put your chips in, you can't take them out...better?
You and Mothra must live a tough life if you have to stick to every position even if conditions change.
Finally, could but didn't. That is tough to get around.
Trump's unpredictability caused Putin to pause, to wait until someone was in office that he could predict his actions. How is that saying that makes us immune from anything? If Putin thinks he will be physically smacked at the same level as he is willing to give, he finds another way. That is his schtick.
Trump was ******* enough to pop a nuke and not care, that is what caused Putin to pause. We are talking two of the worlds biggest narcissist and you are acting like we are saying that is the preferred way to run a Govt. Sad thing is based on the Nation, it is at least better than the Progressives way. That is about as far as I will go.
Not the right man for the job, but probably a better man than Trump.Mothra said:Sometimes even irrational actors make decisions based on fear of reprisal (though unlike others, I don't consider Putin irrational).Sam Lowry said:1. You're contradicting your earlier argument that Putin isn't a rational actor. If he's not rational, he's not capable of being deterred.RMF5630 said:Sam Lowry said:Putin has been insulating the Russian economy from vulnerability to sanctions for at least a decade. I agree that Trump generally did a better job dealing with Russia than Obama or Biden, but that doesn't necessarily mean he could have avoided this. Contrary to what you all are assuming, the whole world doesn't revolve around our choice of leader. In Ukraine or elsewhere, any president can always face a crisis not of his own making.RMF5630 said:Sam Lowry said:That's conjecture. Trump's temperament is fact. Putin has been preparing this move for a long time. If it weren't this it could always be some other crisis. A president needs to be fit for office in any situation, not just the ones you believe most likely.Mothra said:Sam Lowry said:Well said. The thought of Trump as president in this situation is horrifying.Osodecentx said:Trump's temperament isn't suited for this situation. He is impetuous and doesn't listen to advisors who know more about a subject that he. He is erratic and believes he knows more experts because he is rich. He still claims he won the 2020 election and listened to dingbat layers and Flynn for advice, for crying out loud.Oldbear83 said:
Oso:: " I'm more comfortable with Biden than Trump, "so far"."
For what reason? Seriously, what evidence is there that Trump would have messed this up as poorly as Biden, much less worse, that you are "more comfortable" with a man who has literally fumbled every major decision up to now?
Biden has made a number of mistakes before Putin invaded. If you want to argue that Trump would have handled this situation better, I might agree. However, we're here and I prefer Biden to Trump.
Lol.
Highly unlikely we would be in this situation if Trump was president.
I agree with Mothra here. Preparing? 4 years was not enough? Sorry, you can plan anything in a 4 year window. You are right on temperament, Putin knew Trump would act in tangible ways. He just didn't know how he would react. He knew exactly what Biden would and more importantly wouldn't do.
I agree this is not of Bidens making, but his presence didn't deter it. This is all on Putin. Trump has the unpredictable thing. *******, unpredictable. That worked in Foreign Relations. He wasn't liked but not fuxked with either.
2. If Trump deterred Russia from invading, then by your logic Obama and so far Biden have deterred China from attacking Taiwan. This begs the question why China is scared of Biden but Russia isn't.
3. Unpredictability is not a magical solution to all problems. Particularly when nuclear war is at stake, we can't just assume things will always go our way just because Trump is there. Unpredictability is one of many weapons, and it's one that cuts both ways.
4. None of this is relevant to the hypothetical, which correctly assumes that a major foreign policy crisis could occur during a Trump administration despite his best efforts.
I suspect the main reason Putin left Ukraine alone during the Trump admin is Putin knew that Trump wasn't going to push for Ukraine's membership in NATO. Biden, on the other hand, has a long history with Ukraine, has been talking about that possibility for years, and in the last year has ramped up the rhetoric regarding Ukraine's membership. Clearly, that had an effect on Putin's thinking, as non-membership has been one of the reported conditions of a truce in discussions between Ukraine and Russia. What's crazy about such talk is in the late 90's, Biden recognized the provocative nature of admitting former Soviet states into NATO. Saw an interview of him from '97 saying that doing so would be dangerous and stoke tensions with Russia.
I guess after all of the butthurt over Russian interference in Trump's "stolen election," pissing off Putin wasn't such a big deal.
Again, all of this of course cuts against the narrative that Biden, with his numerous foreign policy blunders and his rhetoric that contributed to the Russian invasion, is somehow now the right man for the job, after Russian invaded. It's ridiculous.
Why else do you keep coming back to some version of "could but didn't?" The question is whether Trump would be fit to lead in this situation, and your only answer is that he wouldn't have to.RMF5630 said:Whoever said that it "makes us immune from crisis and makes good judgment unnecessary"? Why do you take things to the extreme and put words in others mouths?Sam Lowry said:You and most others here are arguing that unpredictability makes us immune from crisis and makes good judgment unnecessary. That's just plain crazy.RMF5630 said:Sam Lowry said:1. You're contradicting your earlier argument that Putin isn't a rational actor. If he's not rational, he's not capable of being deterred.RMF5630 said:Sam Lowry said:Putin has been insulating the Russian economy from vulnerability to sanctions for at least a decade. I agree that Trump generally did a better job dealing with Russia than Obama or Biden, but that doesn't necessarily mean he could have avoided this. Contrary to what you all are assuming, the whole world doesn't revolve around our choice of leader. In Ukraine or elsewhere, any president can always face a crisis not of his own making.RMF5630 said:Sam Lowry said:That's conjecture. Trump's temperament is fact. Putin has been preparing this move for a long time. If it weren't this it could always be some other crisis. A president needs to be fit for office in any situation, not just the ones you believe most likely.Mothra said:Sam Lowry said:Well said. The thought of Trump as president in this situation is horrifying.Osodecentx said:Trump's temperament isn't suited for this situation. He is impetuous and doesn't listen to advisors who know more about a subject that he. He is erratic and believes he knows more experts because he is rich. He still claims he won the 2020 election and listened to dingbat layers and Flynn for advice, for crying out loud.Oldbear83 said:
Oso:: " I'm more comfortable with Biden than Trump, "so far"."
For what reason? Seriously, what evidence is there that Trump would have messed this up as poorly as Biden, much less worse, that you are "more comfortable" with a man who has literally fumbled every major decision up to now?
Biden has made a number of mistakes before Putin invaded. If you want to argue that Trump would have handled this situation better, I might agree. However, we're here and I prefer Biden to Trump.
Lol.
Highly unlikely we would be in this situation if Trump was president.
I agree with Mothra here. Preparing? 4 years was not enough? Sorry, you can plan anything in a 4 year window. You are right on temperament, Putin knew Trump would act in tangible ways. He just didn't know how he would react. He knew exactly what Biden would and more importantly wouldn't do.
I agree this is not of Bidens making, but his presence didn't deter it. This is all on Putin. Trump has the unpredictable thing. *******, unpredictable. That worked in Foreign Relations. He wasn't liked but not fuxked with either.
2. If Trump deterred Russia from invading, then by your logic Obama and so far Biden have deterred China from attacking Taiwan. This begs the question why China is scared of Biden but Russia isn't.
3. Unpredictability is not a magical solution to all problems. Particularly when nuclear war is at stake, we can't just assume things will always go our way just because Trump is there. Unpredictability is one of many weapons, and it's one that cuts both ways.
4. None of this is relevant to the hypothetical, which correctly assumes that a major foreign policy crisis could occur during a Trump administration despite his best efforts.
Ok Sam. Here we go. Conditions change. Putin before he did anything could be dissuaded. Such as in 2017 - 20.
Once he is in, he can't just stop or change course.
You understand how conditions change and how he can be too far invested to just say stop. Get it. The further he goes, the less influence anyone will have short of force. Seems pretty straight forward, surprised you and your buddy can't grasp it.
Think of poker, once you put your chips in, you can't take them out...better?
You and Mothra must live a tough life if you have to stick to every position even if conditions change.
Finally, could but didn't. That is tough to get around.
As pointed out above, both men's track records say otherwise.Sam Lowry said:Not the right man for the job, but probably a better man than Trump.Mothra said:Sometimes even irrational actors make decisions based on fear of reprisal (though unlike others, I don't consider Putin irrational).Sam Lowry said:1. You're contradicting your earlier argument that Putin isn't a rational actor. If he's not rational, he's not capable of being deterred.RMF5630 said:Sam Lowry said:Putin has been insulating the Russian economy from vulnerability to sanctions for at least a decade. I agree that Trump generally did a better job dealing with Russia than Obama or Biden, but that doesn't necessarily mean he could have avoided this. Contrary to what you all are assuming, the whole world doesn't revolve around our choice of leader. In Ukraine or elsewhere, any president can always face a crisis not of his own making.RMF5630 said:Sam Lowry said:That's conjecture. Trump's temperament is fact. Putin has been preparing this move for a long time. If it weren't this it could always be some other crisis. A president needs to be fit for office in any situation, not just the ones you believe most likely.Mothra said:Sam Lowry said:Well said. The thought of Trump as president in this situation is horrifying.Osodecentx said:Trump's temperament isn't suited for this situation. He is impetuous and doesn't listen to advisors who know more about a subject that he. He is erratic and believes he knows more experts because he is rich. He still claims he won the 2020 election and listened to dingbat layers and Flynn for advice, for crying out loud.Oldbear83 said:
Oso:: " I'm more comfortable with Biden than Trump, "so far"."
For what reason? Seriously, what evidence is there that Trump would have messed this up as poorly as Biden, much less worse, that you are "more comfortable" with a man who has literally fumbled every major decision up to now?
Biden has made a number of mistakes before Putin invaded. If you want to argue that Trump would have handled this situation better, I might agree. However, we're here and I prefer Biden to Trump.
Lol.
Highly unlikely we would be in this situation if Trump was president.
I agree with Mothra here. Preparing? 4 years was not enough? Sorry, you can plan anything in a 4 year window. You are right on temperament, Putin knew Trump would act in tangible ways. He just didn't know how he would react. He knew exactly what Biden would and more importantly wouldn't do.
I agree this is not of Bidens making, but his presence didn't deter it. This is all on Putin. Trump has the unpredictable thing. *******, unpredictable. That worked in Foreign Relations. He wasn't liked but not fuxked with either.
2. If Trump deterred Russia from invading, then by your logic Obama and so far Biden have deterred China from attacking Taiwan. This begs the question why China is scared of Biden but Russia isn't.
3. Unpredictability is not a magical solution to all problems. Particularly when nuclear war is at stake, we can't just assume things will always go our way just because Trump is there. Unpredictability is one of many weapons, and it's one that cuts both ways.
4. None of this is relevant to the hypothetical, which correctly assumes that a major foreign policy crisis could occur during a Trump administration despite his best efforts.
I suspect the main reason Putin left Ukraine alone during the Trump admin is Putin knew that Trump wasn't going to push for Ukraine's membership in NATO. Biden, on the other hand, has a long history with Ukraine, has been talking about that possibility for years, and in the last year has ramped up the rhetoric regarding Ukraine's membership. Clearly, that had an effect on Putin's thinking, as non-membership has been one of the reported conditions of a truce in discussions between Ukraine and Russia. What's crazy about such talk is in the late 90's, Biden recognized the provocative nature of admitting former Soviet states into NATO. Saw an interview of him from '97 saying that doing so would be dangerous and stoke tensions with Russia.
I guess after all of the butthurt over Russian interference in Trump's "stolen election," pissing off Putin wasn't such a big deal.
Again, all of this of course cuts against the narrative that Biden, with his numerous foreign policy blunders and his rhetoric that contributed to the Russian invasion, is somehow now the right man for the job, after Russian invaded. It's ridiculous.
What you've pointed out is that Biden antagonized Russia with his NATO policy while Trump avoided that particular mistake. I quite agree, but there's a lot more to leadership than that. Trump's record since 2020 says that he's emotional, has a low tolerance for reality, and is dangerously susceptible to delusion. What would that mean in a situation, unlike Syria or Iran, where someone else is driving the immediate events and he's forced to react to new developments with high stakes and little margin for error? Add in the fact that Putin is a strong personality and Trump is probably especially sensitive to insults from him, whether real or imagined. To borrow a favorite term, the results would be...unpredictable. That's not a good thing right now.Mothra said:As pointed out above, both men's track records say otherwise.Sam Lowry said:Not the right man for the job, but probably a better man than Trump.Mothra said:Sometimes even irrational actors make decisions based on fear of reprisal (though unlike others, I don't consider Putin irrational).Sam Lowry said:1. You're contradicting your earlier argument that Putin isn't a rational actor. If he's not rational, he's not capable of being deterred.RMF5630 said:Sam Lowry said:Putin has been insulating the Russian economy from vulnerability to sanctions for at least a decade. I agree that Trump generally did a better job dealing with Russia than Obama or Biden, but that doesn't necessarily mean he could have avoided this. Contrary to what you all are assuming, the whole world doesn't revolve around our choice of leader. In Ukraine or elsewhere, any president can always face a crisis not of his own making.RMF5630 said:Sam Lowry said:That's conjecture. Trump's temperament is fact. Putin has been preparing this move for a long time. If it weren't this it could always be some other crisis. A president needs to be fit for office in any situation, not just the ones you believe most likely.Mothra said:Sam Lowry said:Well said. The thought of Trump as president in this situation is horrifying.Osodecentx said:Trump's temperament isn't suited for this situation. He is impetuous and doesn't listen to advisors who know more about a subject that he. He is erratic and believes he knows more experts because he is rich. He still claims he won the 2020 election and listened to dingbat layers and Flynn for advice, for crying out loud.Oldbear83 said:
Oso:: " I'm more comfortable with Biden than Trump, "so far"."
For what reason? Seriously, what evidence is there that Trump would have messed this up as poorly as Biden, much less worse, that you are "more comfortable" with a man who has literally fumbled every major decision up to now?
Biden has made a number of mistakes before Putin invaded. If you want to argue that Trump would have handled this situation better, I might agree. However, we're here and I prefer Biden to Trump.
Lol.
Highly unlikely we would be in this situation if Trump was president.
I agree with Mothra here. Preparing? 4 years was not enough? Sorry, you can plan anything in a 4 year window. You are right on temperament, Putin knew Trump would act in tangible ways. He just didn't know how he would react. He knew exactly what Biden would and more importantly wouldn't do.
I agree this is not of Bidens making, but his presence didn't deter it. This is all on Putin. Trump has the unpredictable thing. *******, unpredictable. That worked in Foreign Relations. He wasn't liked but not fuxked with either.
2. If Trump deterred Russia from invading, then by your logic Obama and so far Biden have deterred China from attacking Taiwan. This begs the question why China is scared of Biden but Russia isn't.
3. Unpredictability is not a magical solution to all problems. Particularly when nuclear war is at stake, we can't just assume things will always go our way just because Trump is there. Unpredictability is one of many weapons, and it's one that cuts both ways.
4. None of this is relevant to the hypothetical, which correctly assumes that a major foreign policy crisis could occur during a Trump administration despite his best efforts.
I suspect the main reason Putin left Ukraine alone during the Trump admin is Putin knew that Trump wasn't going to push for Ukraine's membership in NATO. Biden, on the other hand, has a long history with Ukraine, has been talking about that possibility for years, and in the last year has ramped up the rhetoric regarding Ukraine's membership. Clearly, that had an effect on Putin's thinking, as non-membership has been one of the reported conditions of a truce in discussions between Ukraine and Russia. What's crazy about such talk is in the late 90's, Biden recognized the provocative nature of admitting former Soviet states into NATO. Saw an interview of him from '97 saying that doing so would be dangerous and stoke tensions with Russia.
I guess after all of the butthurt over Russian interference in Trump's "stolen election," pissing off Putin wasn't such a big deal.
Again, all of this of course cuts against the narrative that Biden, with his numerous foreign policy blunders and his rhetoric that contributed to the Russian invasion, is somehow now the right man for the job, after Russian invaded. It's ridiculous.
I keep coming back to the fact that it did not happen on his watch. Why? Obama, yes. Biden, yes. Trump, no. Why? What was different? Putin just didn't feel like it?Sam Lowry said:Why else do you keep coming back to some version of "could but didn't?" The question is whether Trump would be fit to lead in this situation, and your only answer is that he wouldn't have to.RMF5630 said:Whoever said that it "makes us immune from crisis and makes good judgment unnecessary"? Why do you take things to the extreme and put words in others mouths?Sam Lowry said:You and most others here are arguing that unpredictability makes us immune from crisis and makes good judgment unnecessary. That's just plain crazy.RMF5630 said:Sam Lowry said:1. You're contradicting your earlier argument that Putin isn't a rational actor. If he's not rational, he's not capable of being deterred.RMF5630 said:Sam Lowry said:Putin has been insulating the Russian economy from vulnerability to sanctions for at least a decade. I agree that Trump generally did a better job dealing with Russia than Obama or Biden, but that doesn't necessarily mean he could have avoided this. Contrary to what you all are assuming, the whole world doesn't revolve around our choice of leader. In Ukraine or elsewhere, any president can always face a crisis not of his own making.RMF5630 said:Sam Lowry said:That's conjecture. Trump's temperament is fact. Putin has been preparing this move for a long time. If it weren't this it could always be some other crisis. A president needs to be fit for office in any situation, not just the ones you believe most likely.Mothra said:Sam Lowry said:Well said. The thought of Trump as president in this situation is horrifying.Osodecentx said:Trump's temperament isn't suited for this situation. He is impetuous and doesn't listen to advisors who know more about a subject that he. He is erratic and believes he knows more experts because he is rich. He still claims he won the 2020 election and listened to dingbat layers and Flynn for advice, for crying out loud.Oldbear83 said:
Oso:: " I'm more comfortable with Biden than Trump, "so far"."
For what reason? Seriously, what evidence is there that Trump would have messed this up as poorly as Biden, much less worse, that you are "more comfortable" with a man who has literally fumbled every major decision up to now?
Biden has made a number of mistakes before Putin invaded. If you want to argue that Trump would have handled this situation better, I might agree. However, we're here and I prefer Biden to Trump.
Lol.
Highly unlikely we would be in this situation if Trump was president.
I agree with Mothra here. Preparing? 4 years was not enough? Sorry, you can plan anything in a 4 year window. You are right on temperament, Putin knew Trump would act in tangible ways. He just didn't know how he would react. He knew exactly what Biden would and more importantly wouldn't do.
I agree this is not of Bidens making, but his presence didn't deter it. This is all on Putin. Trump has the unpredictable thing. *******, unpredictable. That worked in Foreign Relations. He wasn't liked but not fuxked with either.
2. If Trump deterred Russia from invading, then by your logic Obama and so far Biden have deterred China from attacking Taiwan. This begs the question why China is scared of Biden but Russia isn't.
3. Unpredictability is not a magical solution to all problems. Particularly when nuclear war is at stake, we can't just assume things will always go our way just because Trump is there. Unpredictability is one of many weapons, and it's one that cuts both ways.
4. None of this is relevant to the hypothetical, which correctly assumes that a major foreign policy crisis could occur during a Trump administration despite his best efforts.
Ok Sam. Here we go. Conditions change. Putin before he did anything could be dissuaded. Such as in 2017 - 20.
Once he is in, he can't just stop or change course.
You understand how conditions change and how he can be too far invested to just say stop. Get it. The further he goes, the less influence anyone will have short of force. Seems pretty straight forward, surprised you and your buddy can't grasp it.
Think of poker, once you put your chips in, you can't take them out...better?
You and Mothra must live a tough life if you have to stick to every position even if conditions change.
Finally, could but didn't. That is tough to get around.
"Not the right man for the job, but probably a better man than Trump."
On absolutely zero evidence.
Actually, a fair amount saying the opposite.
https://www.wsj.com/video/opinion-joe-biden-forced-ukraine-to-fire-prosecutor-for-aid-money/C1C51BB8-3988-4070-869F-CAD3CA0E81D8.html
https://www.cnn.com/2022/01/24/politics/biden-calls-reporter/index.html
https://thehill.com/blogs/congress-blog/politics/589253-president-biden-is-blaming-everyone-else-for-surging-inflation
https://www.wsj.com/articles/saudi-emirati-leaders-decline-calls-with-biden-during-ukraine-crisis-11646779430
On absolutely zero evidence.
Actually, a fair amount saying the opposite.
https://www.wsj.com/video/opinion-joe-biden-forced-ukraine-to-fire-prosecutor-for-aid-money/C1C51BB8-3988-4070-869F-CAD3CA0E81D8.html
https://www.cnn.com/2022/01/24/politics/biden-calls-reporter/index.html
https://thehill.com/blogs/congress-blog/politics/589253-president-biden-is-blaming-everyone-else-for-surging-inflation
https://www.wsj.com/articles/saudi-emirati-leaders-decline-calls-with-biden-during-ukraine-crisis-11646779430
That which does not kill me, will try again and get nastier
No. That is one part of it, but certainly not all that I pointed out. I also pointed out Trump's foreign policy track record above, which evidenced a history of measured and reasonable foreign policy responses to aggressive acts.Sam Lowry said:What you've pointed out is that Biden antagonized Russia with his NATO policy while Trump avoided that particular mistake.Mothra said:As pointed out above, both men's track records say otherwise.Sam Lowry said:Not the right man for the job, but probably a better man than Trump.Mothra said:Sometimes even irrational actors make decisions based on fear of reprisal (though unlike others, I don't consider Putin irrational).Sam Lowry said:1. You're contradicting your earlier argument that Putin isn't a rational actor. If he's not rational, he's not capable of being deterred.RMF5630 said:Sam Lowry said:Putin has been insulating the Russian economy from vulnerability to sanctions for at least a decade. I agree that Trump generally did a better job dealing with Russia than Obama or Biden, but that doesn't necessarily mean he could have avoided this. Contrary to what you all are assuming, the whole world doesn't revolve around our choice of leader. In Ukraine or elsewhere, any president can always face a crisis not of his own making.RMF5630 said:Sam Lowry said:That's conjecture. Trump's temperament is fact. Putin has been preparing this move for a long time. If it weren't this it could always be some other crisis. A president needs to be fit for office in any situation, not just the ones you believe most likely.Mothra said:Sam Lowry said:Well said. The thought of Trump as president in this situation is horrifying.Osodecentx said:Trump's temperament isn't suited for this situation. He is impetuous and doesn't listen to advisors who know more about a subject that he. He is erratic and believes he knows more experts because he is rich. He still claims he won the 2020 election and listened to dingbat layers and Flynn for advice, for crying out loud.Oldbear83 said:
Oso:: " I'm more comfortable with Biden than Trump, "so far"."
For what reason? Seriously, what evidence is there that Trump would have messed this up as poorly as Biden, much less worse, that you are "more comfortable" with a man who has literally fumbled every major decision up to now?
Biden has made a number of mistakes before Putin invaded. If you want to argue that Trump would have handled this situation better, I might agree. However, we're here and I prefer Biden to Trump.
Lol.
Highly unlikely we would be in this situation if Trump was president.
I agree with Mothra here. Preparing? 4 years was not enough? Sorry, you can plan anything in a 4 year window. You are right on temperament, Putin knew Trump would act in tangible ways. He just didn't know how he would react. He knew exactly what Biden would and more importantly wouldn't do.
I agree this is not of Bidens making, but his presence didn't deter it. This is all on Putin. Trump has the unpredictable thing. *******, unpredictable. That worked in Foreign Relations. He wasn't liked but not fuxked with either.
2. If Trump deterred Russia from invading, then by your logic Obama and so far Biden have deterred China from attacking Taiwan. This begs the question why China is scared of Biden but Russia isn't.
3. Unpredictability is not a magical solution to all problems. Particularly when nuclear war is at stake, we can't just assume things will always go our way just because Trump is there. Unpredictability is one of many weapons, and it's one that cuts both ways.
4. None of this is relevant to the hypothetical, which correctly assumes that a major foreign policy crisis could occur during a Trump administration despite his best efforts.
I suspect the main reason Putin left Ukraine alone during the Trump admin is Putin knew that Trump wasn't going to push for Ukraine's membership in NATO. Biden, on the other hand, has a long history with Ukraine, has been talking about that possibility for years, and in the last year has ramped up the rhetoric regarding Ukraine's membership. Clearly, that had an effect on Putin's thinking, as non-membership has been one of the reported conditions of a truce in discussions between Ukraine and Russia. What's crazy about such talk is in the late 90's, Biden recognized the provocative nature of admitting former Soviet states into NATO. Saw an interview of him from '97 saying that doing so would be dangerous and stoke tensions with Russia.
I guess after all of the butthurt over Russian interference in Trump's "stolen election," pissing off Putin wasn't such a big deal.
Again, all of this of course cuts against the narrative that Biden, with his numerous foreign policy blunders and his rhetoric that contributed to the Russian invasion, is somehow now the right man for the job, after Russian invaded. It's ridiculous.
Again, there is an absurdity in your reasoning that you're unwilling to acknowledge. In short, it's absurd to say the guy who is largely responsible for the dangerous situation we find ourselves in is now the right man for the job once he escalated it to this point.
Oldbear83 said:
"Not the right man for the job, but probably a better man than Trump."
On absolutely zero evidence.
Actually, a fair amount saying the opposite.
https://www.wsj.com/video/opinion-joe-biden-forced-ukraine-to-fire-prosecutor-for-aid-money/C1C51BB8-3988-4070-869F-CAD3CA0E81D8.html
https://www.cnn.com/2022/01/24/politics/biden-calls-reporter/index.html
https://thehill.com/blogs/congress-blog/politics/589253-president-biden-is-blaming-everyone-else-for-surging-inflation
https://www.wsj.com/articles/saudi-emirati-leaders-decline-calls-with-biden-during-ukraine-crisis-11646779430
Here's Zelensky's top aide, someone actually there on the ground, explicitly saying Biden is doing more than Trump. I guess he didn't get the latest GOP talking points yet.
Grateful to πΊπΈ, our reliable partner. The @POTUS does more for πΊπ¦ than any of his predecessors.
— Andriy Yermak (@AndriyYermak) March 17, 2022
LOLHuMcK said:Oldbear83 said:
"Not the right man for the job, but probably a better man than Trump."
On absolutely zero evidence.
Actually, a fair amount saying the opposite.
https://www.wsj.com/video/opinion-joe-biden-forced-ukraine-to-fire-prosecutor-for-aid-money/C1C51BB8-3988-4070-869F-CAD3CA0E81D8.html
https://www.cnn.com/2022/01/24/politics/biden-calls-reporter/index.html
https://thehill.com/blogs/congress-blog/politics/589253-president-biden-is-blaming-everyone-else-for-surging-inflation
https://www.wsj.com/articles/saudi-emirati-leaders-decline-calls-with-biden-during-ukraine-crisis-11646779430
Here's Zelensky's top aide, someone actually there on the ground, explicitly saying Biden is doing more than Trump. I guess he didn't get the latest GOP talking points yet.Grateful to πΊπΈ, our reliable partner. The @POTUS does more for πΊπ¦ than any of his predecessors.
— Andriy Yermak (@AndriyYermak) March 17, 2022
What are you smoking??
You think he would be dumb enough to piss off the current POTUS, while also begging the POTUS for help?? Only a Biden voter would be stupid enough to tell the truth about the current administration, while also being wholly dependent upon that administration.
You are a fool to believe that this is anything other than political flattery, for the hope & prayer that Biden might help out Ukraine. We all know that this wouldn't be the first time that Biden used the influence of the White House to get what he wanted from Ukraine.
You are gullible on a whole new level of gullible.
ShooterTX
It's just a matter of separating the issues. I believe you're familiar with the idea of the lesser of two evils. Biden isn't the right man, but he tends to be wrong within normal parameters.Mothra said:No. %A0That is one part of it, but certainly not all that I pointed out. %A0I also pointed out Trump's foreign policy track record above, which evidenced a history of measured and reasonable foreign policy responses to aggressive acts.Sam Lowry said:What you've pointed out is that Biden antagonized Russia with his NATO policy while Trump avoided that particular mistake.Mothra said:As pointed out above, both men's track records say otherwise.Sam Lowry said:Not the right man for the job, but probably a better man than Trump.Mothra said:Sometimes even irrational actors make decisions based on fear of reprisal (though unlike others, I don't consider Putin irrational). %A0Sam Lowry said:1. You're contradicting your earlier argument that Putin isn't a rational actor. If he's not rational, he's not capable of being deterred.RMF5630 said:Sam Lowry said:Putin has been insulating the Russian economy from vulnerability to sanctions for at least a decade. I agree that Trump generally did a better job dealing with Russia than Obama or Biden, but that doesn't necessarily mean he could have avoided this. Contrary to what you all are assuming, the whole world doesn't revolve around our choice of leader. In Ukraine or elsewhere, any president can always face a crisis not of his own making.RMF5630 said:Sam Lowry said:That's conjecture. Trump's temperament is fact. Putin has been preparing this move for a long time. If it weren't this it could always be some other crisis. A president needs to be fit for office in any situation, not just the ones you believe most likely.Mothra said:Sam Lowry said:Well said. The thought of Trump as president in this situation is horrifying.Osodecentx said:Trump's temperament isn't suited for this situation. %A0He is impetuous and doesn't listen to advisors who know more about a subject that he. %A0He is erratic and believes he knows more experts because he is rich. %A0He still claims he won the 2020 election and listened to dingbat layers and Flynn for advice, for crying out loud. %A0Oldbear83 said:
Oso:: " I'm more comfortable with Biden than Trump, "so far"."
For what reason? %A0 Seriously, what evidence is there that Trump would have messed this up as poorly as Biden, much less worse, that you are "more comfortable" with a man who has literally fumbled every major decision up to now?
Biden has made a number of mistakes before Putin invaded. %A0If you want to argue that Trump would have handled this situation better, I might agree. %A0However, we're here and I prefer Biden to Trump.
Lol. %A0
Highly unlikely we would be in this situation if Trump was president. %A0
I agree with Mothra here. %A0Preparing? %A04 years was not enough? Sorry, you can plan anything in a 4 year window. %A0You are right on temperament, Putin knew Trump would act in tangible ways. %A0He just didn't know how he would react. %A0He knew exactly what Biden would and more importantly wouldn't do.
I agree this is not of Bidens making, but his presence didn't deter it. %A0This is all on Putin. %A0Trump has the unpredictable %A0thing. %A0*******, unpredictable. %A0That worked in Foreign Relations. %A0He wasn't liked but not fuxked with either. %A0
2. If Trump deterred Russia from invading, then by your logic Obama and so far Biden have deterred China from attacking Taiwan. This begs the question why China is scared of Biden but Russia isn't.
3. Unpredictability is not a magical solution to all problems. Particularly when nuclear war is at stake, we can't just assume things will always go our way just because Trump is there. Unpredictability is one of many weapons, and it's one that cuts both ways.
4. None of this is relevant to the hypothetical, which correctly assumes that a major foreign policy crisis could occur during a Trump administration despite his best efforts.
I suspect the main reason Putin left Ukraine alone during the Trump admin is Putin knew that Trump wasn't going to push for Ukraine's membership in NATO. Biden, on the other hand, has a long history with Ukraine, has been talking about that possibility for years, and in the last year has ramped up the rhetoric regarding Ukraine's membership. %A0Clearly, that had an effect on Putin's thinking, as non-membership has been one of the reported conditions of a truce in discussions between Ukraine and Russia. What's crazy about such talk is in the late 90's, Biden recognized the provocative nature of admitting former Soviet states into NATO. Saw an interview of him from '97 saying that doing so would be dangerous and stoke tensions with Russia.
I guess after all of the butthurt over Russian interference in Trump's "stolen election," pissing off Putin wasn't such a big deal.
Again, all of this of course cuts against the narrative that Biden, with his numerous foreign policy blunders and his rhetoric that contributed to the Russian invasion, is somehow now the right man for the job, after Russian invaded. %A0It's ridiculous.
Again, there is an absurdity in your reasoning that you're unwilling to acknowledge. In short, it's absurd to say the guy who is largely responsible for the dangerous situation we find ourselves in is now the right man for the job once he escalated it to this point.
You got it all wrong, Mothra.Mothra said:No. That is one part of it, but certainly not all that I pointed out. I also pointed out Trump's foreign policy track record above, which evidenced a history of measured and reasonable foreign policy responses to aggressive acts.Sam Lowry said:What you've pointed out is that Biden antagonized Russia with his NATO policy while Trump avoided that particular mistake.Mothra said:As pointed out above, both men's track records say otherwise.Sam Lowry said:Not the right man for the job, but probably a better man than Trump.Mothra said:Sometimes even irrational actors make decisions based on fear of reprisal (though unlike others, I don't consider Putin irrational).Sam Lowry said:1. You're contradicting your earlier argument that Putin isn't a rational actor. If he's not rational, he's not capable of being deterred.RMF5630 said:Sam Lowry said:Putin has been insulating the Russian economy from vulnerability to sanctions for at least a decade. I agree that Trump generally did a better job dealing with Russia than Obama or Biden, but that doesn't necessarily mean he could have avoided this. Contrary to what you all are assuming, the whole world doesn't revolve around our choice of leader. In Ukraine or elsewhere, any president can always face a crisis not of his own making.RMF5630 said:Sam Lowry said:That's conjecture. Trump's temperament is fact. Putin has been preparing this move for a long time. If it weren't this it could always be some other crisis. A president needs to be fit for office in any situation, not just the ones you believe most likely.Mothra said:Sam Lowry said:Well said. The thought of Trump as president in this situation is horrifying.Osodecentx said:Trump's temperament isn't suited for this situation. He is impetuous and doesn't listen to advisors who know more about a subject that he. He is erratic and believes he knows more experts because he is rich. He still claims he won the 2020 election and listened to dingbat layers and Flynn for advice, for crying out loud.Oldbear83 said:
Oso:: " I'm more comfortable with Biden than Trump, "so far"."
For what reason? Seriously, what evidence is there that Trump would have messed this up as poorly as Biden, much less worse, that you are "more comfortable" with a man who has literally fumbled every major decision up to now?
Biden has made a number of mistakes before Putin invaded. If you want to argue that Trump would have handled this situation better, I might agree. However, we're here and I prefer Biden to Trump.
Lol.
Highly unlikely we would be in this situation if Trump was president.
I agree with Mothra here. Preparing? 4 years was not enough? Sorry, you can plan anything in a 4 year window. You are right on temperament, Putin knew Trump would act in tangible ways. He just didn't know how he would react. He knew exactly what Biden would and more importantly wouldn't do.
I agree this is not of Bidens making, but his presence didn't deter it. This is all on Putin. Trump has the unpredictable thing. *******, unpredictable. That worked in Foreign Relations. He wasn't liked but not fuxked with either.
2. If Trump deterred Russia from invading, then by your logic Obama and so far Biden have deterred China from attacking Taiwan. This begs the question why China is scared of Biden but Russia isn't.
3. Unpredictability is not a magical solution to all problems. Particularly when nuclear war is at stake, we can't just assume things will always go our way just because Trump is there. Unpredictability is one of many weapons, and it's one that cuts both ways.
4. None of this is relevant to the hypothetical, which correctly assumes that a major foreign policy crisis could occur during a Trump administration despite his best efforts.
I suspect the main reason Putin left Ukraine alone during the Trump admin is Putin knew that Trump wasn't going to push for Ukraine's membership in NATO. Biden, on the other hand, has a long history with Ukraine, has been talking about that possibility for years, and in the last year has ramped up the rhetoric regarding Ukraine's membership. Clearly, that had an effect on Putin's thinking, as non-membership has been one of the reported conditions of a truce in discussions between Ukraine and Russia. What's crazy about such talk is in the late 90's, Biden recognized the provocative nature of admitting former Soviet states into NATO. Saw an interview of him from '97 saying that doing so would be dangerous and stoke tensions with Russia.
I guess after all of the butthurt over Russian interference in Trump's "stolen election," pissing off Putin wasn't such a big deal.
Again, all of this of course cuts against the narrative that Biden, with his numerous foreign policy blunders and his rhetoric that contributed to the Russian invasion, is somehow now the right man for the job, after Russian invaded. It's ridiculous.
Again, there is an absurdity in your reasoning that you're unwilling to acknowledge. In short, it's absurd to say the guy who is largely responsible for the dangerous situation we find ourselves in is now the right man for the job once he escalated it to this point.
Clearly the best guy to clean dog **** out of your carpets, is the guy who constantly steps in dog **** and then walks all over your carpets. He's got a very long track record of tracking dog **** thru your house... so he is clearly the best guy to clean up the dog *****.. that he rubbed into your carpets.
Why would you ever think that the guy you really want is the guy who has never tracked dog **** through your house before?? That guy would have zero experience in cleaning up dog *****... why would you trust such a person?
Biden is clearly the right guy for this mess.... you know... the mess that he created. We would never want someone in charge, who doesn't create an unnecessary mess... that would be a horrible tragedy!
You really gotta love the logic here. Biden is SO good at creating and then cleaning up messes, that he is clearly the guy you should want in charge right now. We need the dog **** expert... not the guy who is smart enough to avoid the massive pile of dog **** in the first place... that guy is a dangerous clown! LOL
ShooterTX
Sam Lowry said:
What you've pointed out Biden isn't the right man, but he tends to be wrong within normal parameters.
Translated: "he's a complete and abject failure, but at least he doesn't send mean tweets."
Exactly. Every single one of their arguments boils down to this.whitetrash said:Sam Lowry said:
What you've pointed out Biden isn't the right man, but he tends to be wrong within normal parameters.
Translated: "he's a complete and abject failure, but at least he doesn't send mean tweets."
Our vibrations were getting nasty. But why? I was puzzled, frustrated... Had we deteriorated to the level of dumb beasts?
You're better than this.Wangchung said:Exactly. Every single one of their arguments boils down to this.whitetrash said:Sam Lowry said:
What you've pointed out Biden isn't the right man, but he tends to be wrong within normal parameters.
Translated: "he's a complete and abject failure, but at least he doesn't send mean tweets."
But it's true. When we really dig into the anti-Trump opinions and compare them to the facts it all boils down to an emotional dislike of Trump's personality rather than ANY policy of his administration. The worst thing about Trump was the behavior of leftists and neocons in response to his existence.
Our vibrations were getting nasty. But why? I was puzzled, frustrated... Had we deteriorated to the level of dumb beasts?
You may have repeated it so many times that you believe it's true. When you really dig into the anti-Trump opinions, you'll find that they're not based on emotion nor are they limited to leftists and neocons.Wangchung said:
But it's true. When we really dig into the anti-Trump opinions and compare them to the facts it all boils down to an emotional dislike of Trump's personality rather than ANY policy of his administration. The worst thing about Trump was the behavior of leftists and neocons in response to his existence.
And yet, there is no evidence to suggest Biden is the lesser of the two evils when it comes to foreign policy, given his track record. In fact, when compared to Trump's track record, there is ample evidence to suggest that Biden is the greater of the two evils. We are actually concerned about nuclear war for the first time since I was in elementary school.
The claim that is being "wrong within normal parameters" is certainly an interesting characterization.
The claim that is being "wrong within normal parameters" is certainly an interesting characterization.
DPS Officer to Motorist: "You blew a .12, failed the field sobriety tests, and crashed your car into a tree."
Motorist: "Are you saying that I was driving while intoxicated?"
DPS Officer: "You are drunk, but within normal parameters."
Motorist: "Are you saying that I was driving while intoxicated?"
DPS Officer: "You are drunk, but within normal parameters."
Some aren't based on emotion, but many are, unquestionably.Sam Lowry said:You may have repeated it so many times that you believe it's true. When you really dig into the anti-Trump opinions, you'll find that they're not based on emotion nor are they limited to leftists and neocons.Wangchung said:
But it's true. When we really dig into the anti-Trump opinions and compare them to the facts it all boils down to an emotional dislike of Trump's personality rather than ANY policy of his administration. The worst thing about Trump was the behavior of leftists and neocons in response to his existence.
Political talk. He needs help now and flattery and Biden is the guy sitting in the chair now.HuMcK said:Oldbear83 said:
"Not the right man for the job, but probably a better man than Trump."
On absolutely zero evidence.
Actually, a fair amount saying the opposite.
https://www.wsj.com/video/opinion-joe-biden-forced-ukraine-to-fire-prosecutor-for-aid-money/C1C51BB8-3988-4070-869F-CAD3CA0E81D8.html
https://www.cnn.com/2022/01/24/politics/biden-calls-reporter/index.html
https://thehill.com/blogs/congress-blog/politics/589253-president-biden-is-blaming-everyone-else-for-surging-inflation
https://www.wsj.com/articles/saudi-emirati-leaders-decline-calls-with-biden-during-ukraine-crisis-11646779430
Here's Zelensky's top aide, someone actually there on the ground, explicitly saying Biden is doing more than Trump. I guess he didn't get the latest GOP talking points yet.Grateful to πΊπΈ, our reliable partner. The @POTUS does more for πΊπ¦ than any of his predecessors.
— Andriy Yermak (@AndriyYermak) March 17, 2022
That which does not kill me, will try again and get nastier