whiterock said:

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Thee University said:

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I'll never get to see it but I hope they split it East/West instead of North South.

I know it makes everyone feel good to think that we can recover but DC is so corrupt and lost that we will never be able to fix our problems.

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The only viable scenario is East/West/Middle

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We will revert back to federalism. Political power will be come less centralized. Washington will not be called upon to resolve the contentious social issues that should be decided by the States and local governments. The process will happen gradually and the state of the union will become more harmonious over the next 10 to 20 years.

Sam Lowry said:

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whiterock said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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whiterock said:

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Osodecentx said:

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whiterock said:

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Osodecentx said:

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Canada2017 said:

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Osodecentx said:

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Married A Horn said:

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Should it happen? Arent both sides completely sick of each other? We are closer to civil war than we are getting along with each other. Splitting up into red & blue is so much netter than war.

Would you be fore or against?

I vote yes, separate. The alternatives are ugly. And this way everyone gets what they want.

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I vote no

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What are your reasons ?

Really believe this country have avoid a cultural blood bath down the road ?

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The calls for a war or a division of states comes from a loud but very, very small group with a social media megaphone. Call 10 of your acquaintances today and ask them if the country should separate into 2 of more countries. I have and nobody I know even understands the question.
The USA has always had regions that were different economically and socially. A few examples come to mind.
Before the Civil War the NE was the population and financial center of the country. The regions were very different
After the Civil War the South was in a Depression for decades. The NE prospered. The regions were very different.
Now the population is moving south and southwest. The NE is socially very different from the south and SW. I won't be telling NYC residents how to live. I think their choices are destructive in the long run, but c'est la vie.

My long term view of the country is pessimistic. I think the country is in irreversible decline because of financial and societal decisions. I just don't believe we divide up before we augur in. See what happens when the grid goes down or the financial system crashes.

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These questions have been polled from time to time and the numbers, depending on the way the question is worded range between 20-40%.

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I'm not saying my friends & acquaintances are a representative sample of the US population.

Do you have a link to the polls handy. I'm curious how they asked the question

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I'll have to fire up the laptop to get some links. At one point in the Obama years, Texas secession got to 39% in one poll. My assessment at the time was that ANY 2-digit number was a signal of struggling social contract.

Usually, the question is asked in context of how likely the respondent thought civil war would occur. I don't recall a number below 20%. Again, any 2-digit number is significant = "what the hell is going on here?"

I know I have a link to Kessler's "Cold Civil War" article. It is one of several of the type which echoes themes I've posted here. Liberals have left Classical Liberalism and allied with Progressives, who control most of the culture producing institutions, which puts both in a feedback loop which tells progressives they've won the argument and makes liberals mis-perceive that they are near the political center. And other pathologies flow from there. Capital is always the glue. It will play to the last card to avoid the fight.

At the moment, capital thinks it can pander to progressives on culture and does not yet perceive the threat that conservatives and working class see right up in their grille. But drag shows at school are galvanizing things quickly. Almost every capitalist is a parent or grandparent.

There is very, very little common ground between right and left at the moment. Regime politics. One side tries to undo the work of the other, work originally done in no small part to limit the other.

There will be no compromise. One side will win, and the other will lose. Outcome uncertain but I like our chances. It would be game over if the neverTrumpers would quit virtue posturing

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I used to think your domestic policy was almost as nihilistic as your foreign policy, but I was wrong. It's worse!

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We are not in Kansas anymore. Have you heard that the RPT Convention this month passed a resolution urging the Texas Legislature to put secession on the ballot? That it barely made the news is itself worthy of some analysis. The RPT Convention is not a small thing, not a bunch of nuts in a back room. It's the largest political convention in the world, over 9000 delegates.

Here's one on national division from almost a year ago.
https://thehill.com/changing-america/enrichment/arts-culture/563221-shocking-poll-finds-many-americans-now-want-to/

To be clear: the odds of actual secession/division happening are vanishingly small. but when you see polling results like link, you know there are serious social pathologies going on, two in particular. One, a growing number of people are just tired of all the division - "geez, just let them have their room and tell me where mine is." Two, a growing number of people do not see a practical way to bridge the divisions - "Not no, but hell no. Who do these people think they are?" And is that latter that drives my assessment about the shrinking political middle - the right has gone as far as they're willing to go, and the left has become increasingly shrill, punishing not just dissent but lack of enthusiasm. That drives the wide range of polls over the last few years showing that people are increasingly refusing to socialize or date across the political aisle.

The dynamic that typically binds in times like this is pretty simple: lower and middle classes have more latitude to be principled in their political choices. They have little or nothing to lose. It's the upper classes who have enough wealth to temper their political sensibilities. Yeah, a wealthy person might think X, but instability rarely improves wealth (unless you're the one driving the instability). So it's capital considerations which typically provide the most resilient centripetal force. The other big centripetal forces are social institutions, and most of those have already failed, or are in process of doing so. They no longer beckon to commonality, but are driving social justice (which a growing majority of the public are rising to reject.) That's why we see the issue of division/secession popping up in polling from time to time. The centre has not held. A new one is going to have to form. And the Trump coalition (with or without him) is the leading contender - multi-racial working class. That's a big tent which can incorporate a lot of diversity of all types. The social justice coalition is too upper-class white, too intellectual, and most importantly is actively disinterested in reaching out to incorporate by anything other than force. You either join them or you are canceled. They are bullies. And ordinary people hate bullies. Ergo the enduring strength of the Trump coalition.

We should be able to get thru it. And progressives are probably going to lose. But it is going to be a very bumpy ride. And in such exercises, there's always a chance.....

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I don't disagree with much of what you're saying. I'm just surprised, if you understand how devastating civil war can be, that you wouldn't want to avoid it at almost any cost. Nor am I convinced that you have the upper hand over progressives. There seems to be much evidence to the contrary.

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Don't mistake analysis for advocacy, at least in terms of armed conflict. I took an oath and I intend to uphold it.

Kessler is pretty close to correct. The purpose of getting elected is now to cancel the other side.
https://imprimis.hillsdale.edu/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/Imprimis_Oct_18_6pg.pdf

You are also correct that progressivism is in a commanding position, in full control of cultural institutions. And they think they've won. So they're standing and saying what they think openly. And that is their undoing. Most ordinary people don't pay much attention to politics. But now we have drag shows at the elementary school and Garland is sic'ing the FBI on anyone who complains about it.

There is a seething going on in a silent majority. Next couple of elections will be wake-up calls for Democrats. They cannot win the hand they're playing.

whiterock said:

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Thee University said:

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I'll never get to see it but I hope they split it East/West instead of North South.

I know it makes everyone feel good to think that we can recover but DC is so corrupt and lost that we will never be able to fix our problems.

---

The only viable scenario is East/West/Middle

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This

Canada2017 said:

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whiterock said:

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Thee University said:

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I'll never get to see it but I hope they split it East/West instead of North South.

I know it makes everyone feel good to think that we can recover but DC is so corrupt and lost that we will never be able to fix our problems.

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The only viable scenario is East/West/Middle

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This

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You'll be stuck with California, still. Ha ha.

“The Russian government has made a project of turning Americans against each other.” George W Bush understands 🇷🇺 goals. pic.twitter.com/qz2fQZa6yx

— Ivana Stradner 🇺🇦 (@ivanastradner) June 26, 2022

jupiter said:

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“The Russian government has made a project of turning Americans against each other.” George W Bush understands 🇷🇺 goals. pic.twitter.com/qz2fQZa6yx

— Ivana Stradner 🇺🇦 (@ivanastradner) June 26, 2022

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he did everything except name 47 and Jinxy

So, the OP wants the dumbest, poorest, fattest states to unite. The states with the least innovation, art, music (but the most Dollar General stores per capita). The states propped up with the most federal dollars per capita right now. Yep, that'll work.

Canada2017 said:

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tombeaux said:

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So, the OP wants the dumbest, poorest, fattest states to unite. The states with the least innovation, art, music (but the most Dollar General stores per capita). The states propped up with the most federal dollars per capita right now. Yep, that'll work.

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Your arrogance is entertaining .......

however it wouldn't be 20 years before those clever folks in the states with the 'innovation, art and music ' would be begging for the opportunity to enter the states with all the Dollar Generals.

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and those that know how to work

nein51 said:

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Canada2017 said:

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tombeaux said:

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So, the OP wants the dumbest, poorest, fattest states to unite. The states with the least innovation, art, music (but the most Dollar General stores per capita). The states propped up with the most federal dollars per capita right now. Yep, that'll work.

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Your arrogance is entertaining .......

however it wouldn't be 20 years before those clever folks in the states with the 'innovation, art and music ' would be begging for the opportunity to enter the states with all the Dollar Generals.

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They are already doing that. Flocking to them in some cases. Ask anyone in Florida or Texas.

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and in the scenario we're contemplating, it's all those "dumbest, poorest, fattest" types who will leave to the blue states, who according to tombeaux's post are generating all that federal revenue being sent to the red states, who will no longer have the revenue to continue the entitlement programs.

So, yeah, "that'll work."

Natural selection, in action.

Sam Lowry said:

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whiterock said:

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Osodecentx said:

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whiterock said:

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Osodecentx said:

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Canada2017 said:

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Osodecentx said:

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Married A Horn said:

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Should it happen? Arent both sides completely sick of each other? We are closer to civil war than we are getting along with each other. Splitting up into red & blue is so much netter than war.

Would you be fore or against?

I vote yes, separate. The alternatives are ugly. And this way everyone gets what they want.

---

I vote no

---

What are your reasons ?

Really believe this country have avoid a cultural blood bath down the road ?

---

The calls for a war or a division of states comes from a loud but very, very small group with a social media megaphone. Call 10 of your acquaintances today and ask them if the country should separate into 2 of more countries. I have and nobody I know even understands the question.
The USA has always had regions that were different economically and socially. A few examples come to mind.
Before the Civil War the NE was the population and financial center of the country. The regions were very different
After the Civil War the South was in a Depression for decades. The NE prospered. The regions were very different.
Now the population is moving south and southwest. The NE is socially very different from the south and SW. I won't be telling NYC residents how to live. I think their choices are destructive in the long run, but c'est la vie.

My long term view of the country is pessimistic. I think the country is in irreversible decline because of financial and societal decisions. I just don't believe we divide up before we augur in. See what happens when the grid goes down or the financial system crashes.

---

These questions have been polled from time to time and the numbers, depending on the way the question is worded range between 20-40%.

---

I'm not saying my friends & acquaintances are a representative sample of the US population.

Do you have a link to the polls handy. I'm curious how they asked the question

---

I'll have to fire up the laptop to get some links. At one point in the Obama years, Texas secession got to 39% in one poll. My assessment at the time was that ANY 2-digit number was a signal of struggling social contract.

Usually, the question is asked in context of how likely the respondent thought civil war would occur. I don't recall a number below 20%. Again, any 2-digit number is significant = "what the hell is going on here?"

I know I have a link to Kessler's "Cold Civil War" article. It is one of several of the type which echoes themes I've posted here. Liberals have left Classical Liberalism and allied with Progressives, who control most of the culture producing institutions, which puts both in a feedback loop which tells progressives they've won the argument and makes liberals mis-perceive that they are near the political center. And other pathologies flow from there. Capital is always the glue. It will play to the last card to avoid the fight.

At the moment, capital thinks it can pander to progressives on culture and does not yet perceive the threat that conservatives and working class see right up in their grille. But drag shows at school are galvanizing things quickly. Almost every capitalist is a parent or grandparent.

There is very, very little common ground between right and left at the moment. Regime politics. One side tries to undo the work of the other, work originally done in no small part to limit the other.

There will be no compromise. One side will win, and the other will lose. Outcome uncertain but I like our chances. It would be game over if the neverTrumpers would quit virtue posturing

---

I used to think your domestic policy was almost as nihilistic as your foreign policy, but I was wrong. It's worse!

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Just curious, what exactly is nihilist about my foreign policy?

tombeaux said:

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So, the OP wants the dumbest, poorest, fattest states to unite. The states with the least innovation, art, music (but the most Dollar General stores per capita). The states propped up with the most federal dollars per capita right now. Yep, that'll work.

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Laughing that someone thinks any list of Donor states is anything other than political theatre.

One list if including government program payments to states. List changes if including payments to individual recipients [Medicare, SNAP]. List changes again if including government contracts. List changes again if including government employees ["Virginia, look at the camera and wave"].

Donor state lists can be created to serve any agenda solely by dictating what transactions/relationships are included. And the variances aren't small. Top Ten to Bottom Ten swings.

When you stop all the handouts, people tend to go to work.

nein51 said:

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Canada2017 said:

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tombeaux said:

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So, the OP wants the dumbest, poorest, fattest states to unite. The states with the least innovation, art, music (but the most Dollar General stores per capita). The states propped up with the most federal dollars per capita right now. Yep, that'll work.

---

Your arrogance is entertaining .......

however it wouldn't be 20 years before those clever folks in the states with the 'innovation, art and music ' would be begging for the opportunity to enter the states with all the Dollar Generals.

---

They are already doing that. Flocking to them in some cases. Ask anyone in Florida or Texas.

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If this happened, first you'd see population start to decrease in the "Blue States of America" because of their love of abortions. Then crime in the street would see many of them taking each other out in the same way you see it happening in liberal cities already. Because they hate LE, and are perfectly fine with putting criminals back out on the street. Talk about an apocalyptic scene. Being the land of gimme, would bury them eventually; they wouldn't be able to sustain.

We already see a country where right is wrong and wrong is right.

And yep, this would lead to a migration out of the blue zone so quickly.

That being said, CA has indeed been tapped out. And we have a loser for a governor to seal the deal.

There was a reason people came to CA long before thy were going to TX or even FL.

A lot of snowbirds to FL over the decades, I know, because it was cheap. And warm. But even with that, it still trailed CA in so many ways. The fact that property in FL has been cheap up until relatively recent times will attest to that.

TX and FL have politics on their side. And cost of living overall too.

That is gradually changing though as even TX and FL are getting more expensive.

But the politics is the biggest part of it, because that impacts so many other avenues of life.

Considering that you can't throw a rock in CA without hitting someone from TX, or whose parents came from TX, I hope those who are part of the CA-TX migration are of the liberal sort who were seeking refuge, and everything else, here in CA, and are now returning. You can have 'em back.

And being that so many companies are relocating from CA to TX, something TX is puffing its chest out over. That could very well come back to bite you. Because with those companies, especially those from the Bay Area, will come a lot of liberals. Good luck. You'll be decades behind CA, but you'll get to experience what we've been experiencing out here for a long time. Compliments of the wretched liberal refuse from every corner of the country. With Texas well-represented out here.

CA was bombarded and eventually priced out by a lot of people from TX, in fact, and many other places, long before the reverse started happening. So enjoy the experience.

In the meantime, 69-70% of Californians voted to keep that clown in the governor's mansion, and considering the majority of Californians aren't even from here (MANY of them, again, from TX), it leads me to ask, what in the hell has the rest of the country been sending us, and when are they going back?

We used to be a state where it was possible to get a Republican as governor. Not anymore.

LIB,MR BEARS said:

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jupiter said:

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“The Russian government has made a project of turning Americans against each other.” George W Bush understands 🇷🇺 goals. pic.twitter.com/qz2fQZa6yx

— Ivana Stradner 🇺🇦 (@ivanastradner) June 26, 2022

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he did everything except name 47 and Jinxy

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I notice that Bush has not yet said anything about Roe being overturned...interesting that he is not celebrating the biggest social conservative win of the last 50 years.

And of course he still has never condemned the BLM riots and 2020 summer of destruction.

He hasnt said anything about Christmas or Ramadan either.