Canada2017 said:

---

Bear8084 said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

Bear8084 said:

---

The only one denying an exit is the aggressor country itself. No one else.

---

It's never that simple .

There are many ethnic Russians living in eastern Ukraine who want the Russian military to remain .

---

There are not.

---

So these ethnic Russians who had been fighting the Ukrainians for years for independence…..don't exist ?

---

Do you support the Reconquista Movement to return the Southwest to Mexico?

Canada2017 said:

---

Bear8084 said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

Bear8084 said:

---

The only one denying an exit is the aggressor country itself. No one else.

---

It's never that simple .

There are many ethnic Russians living in eastern Ukraine who want the Russian military to remain .

---

There are not.

---

So these ethnic Russians who had been fighting the Ukrainians for years for independence…..don't exist ?

---

Mostly Russian Army units and Russian led DNR and LPR puppets. There was little to no popular support for any kind of "separatist" movement in that area until Russia started getting involved and propping up quislings with support, money and weapons.

They were on the run until Russia sent in units in 2014 to stop the rout and freeze the lines.

Bear8084 said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

Bear8084 said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

Bear8084 said:

---

The only one denying an exit is the aggressor country itself. No one else.

---

It's never that simple .

There are many ethnic Russians living in eastern Ukraine who want the Russian military to remain .

---

There are not.

---

So these ethnic Russians who had been fighting the Ukrainians for years for independence…..don't exist ?

---

Mostly Russian Army units and Russian led DNR and LPR puppets. There was little to no popular support for any kind of "separatist" movement in that area until Russia started getting involved and propping up quislings.

---

Well that certainly clears things up . No popular uprising from the thousands of ethnic Russians living in those eastern provinces that bordered Russia .

Guess the Russians also blew up their own North Sea natural gas pipelines as well . Took huge financial losses rather than merely shut the outflow valves .

Those Russians certainly are diabolical.

Canada2017 said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

For almost all of those 220 years, Ukraine has been under Russian rule in some form or another. Now suddenly it's a crisis.

---

And they've desired not be for pretty much all of it.

---

Exactly...nothing new.

---

So Sam. Does Ukraine's desire to be free of Russia count in this at all? Do they have any say? Or, because you and others believe they have been in the Russian "sphere of influence" for 220 years, their die is cast.

---

Most of Ukraine desires peace and would benefit from our cooperation in a negotiated settlement. They accept our weapons instead because that's all we're willing to give.

---

snd you know this how? We're you in the meetings?

---

I know it because Zelensky won a landslide on the promise to make a deal with Russia. He was unable because of right-wing extremists who threatened him and escalated the civil war with our support.

---

So now it's Zelensky's fault that Russia invaded? He forced them to?

---

I'm saying the extremists escalated the war, not Zelensky.

---

The extremist are in the South, pushing for Russia to annex them. You complain of the CIA and NATO training the Ukrainian military, that was common knowledge. We had National Guard & Active troops working with them for 30 years. Unlike Russia that has had Spetznaz instigating this war. How easy is it to find information about that? The US and NATO have been transparent since Ukraine became a sovereign nation, at least as much as you can expect in that area of defense.

This all goes back to the 90's. Russia and Yeltson agreed to Ukrainian sovereignty. He was there with Clinton when the Budapest Memorandum was signed. As non-binding as it is, it does say the US and Britain will support Ukraine defense. Sending advisors and troops to train the Ukrainians is consistent with that agreement. What did they expect them to do? Give back the Nukes and everyone stay away in perpetuity?

I will grant you the NATO memberships for the Baltics and Poland is problematic. I understand what the Russians said about not moving East. But, if those nations want in and not to simply exist as buffers so Russia and Putin feel comfortable? We are talking 44 million people who need to put their lives in limbo so Russia has a comfort zone???? IF we had a competent and functional UN, that would be a place for them to step in and create a compromise.

---

Yeah , if the Russians were training thousands of their troops in Mexico while pushing for the Mexicans to join the Warsaw Pact ……

The US would be totally fine with it .

Good grief , take a step back and look at this situation without the jingoistic blinders .

This US engineered process in Ukraine was needlessly provocative.

Ukraine is not vital to US security needs . Never has been .

---

If we were there when the agreement was signed? They agreed to the US and Britain supporting Ukraine to protect their sovereignty. Good Grief, you act like this all happened as some clandestine backroom that poor Russia didn't know what was going on. It went on before Putin was in power, this isn't some new situation that now needs Russia's attention.

As for Mexico, the US would not agree to the Russian's backstopping Mexican independence in writing. Russia is there now trying to sell Mexico military equipment. Don't see the US attacking. I don't remember M1's rolling into Nicaragua when Putin supplied Cuba? Ortega? Venezula? Peru? Brazil? I don't see us invading nations that accept China's Roads and Belts money. You are talking out your ass on this one. Russia and China have been very active in the Western Hemisphere. The US has not invaded any of them. I know Bay of Pigs in 1961, that was 60 years ago. Even Noriega was over 30 years ago.

Geez, you act like Russia is a child. They were part of the agreement and signed it. They agreed to it when the wall came down and they wanted their missiles back. They agreed to the US working with the biolabs, because the fear was they were not soundly run. You act like Russia is some type of victim. They are the aggressor here.


Here is a nice article, it will fill you in on what Putin is doing in the Western Hemisphere.

https://www.csis.org/analysis/russia-western-hemisphere-assessing-putins-malign-influence-latin-america-and-caribbean

Canada2017 said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

For almost all of those 220 years, Ukraine has been under Russian rule in some form or another. Now suddenly it's a crisis.

---

And they've desired not be for pretty much all of it.

---

Exactly...nothing new.

---

So Sam. Does Ukraine's desire to be free of Russia count in this at all? Do they have any say? Or, because you and others believe they have been in the Russian "sphere of influence" for 220 years, their die is cast.

---

Most of Ukraine desires peace and would benefit from our cooperation in a negotiated settlement. They accept our weapons instead because that's all we're willing to give.

---

snd you know this how? We're you in the meetings?

---

I know it because Zelensky won a landslide on the promise to make a deal with Russia. He was unable because of right-wing extremists who threatened him and escalated the civil war with our support.

---

So now it's Zelensky's fault that Russia invaded? He forced them to?

---

I'm saying the extremists escalated the war, not Zelensky.

---

The extremist are in the South, pushing for Russia to annex them. You complain of the CIA and NATO training the Ukrainian military, that was common knowledge. We had National Guard & Active troops working with them for 30 years. Unlike Russia that has had Spetznaz instigating this war. How easy is it to find information about that? The US and NATO have been transparent since Ukraine became a sovereign nation, at least as much as you can expect in that area of defense.

This all goes back to the 90's. Russia and Yeltson agreed to Ukrainian sovereignty. He was there with Clinton when the Budapest Memorandum was signed. As non-binding as it is, it does say the US and Britain will support Ukraine defense. Sending advisors and troops to train the Ukrainians is consistent with that agreement. What did they expect them to do? Give back the Nukes and everyone stay away in perpetuity?

I will grant you the NATO memberships for the Baltics and Poland is problematic. I understand what the Russians said about not moving East. But, if those nations want in and not to simply exist as buffers so Russia and Putin feel comfortable? We are talking 44 million people who need to put their lives in limbo so Russia has a comfort zone???? IF we had a competent and functional UN, that would be a place for them to step in and create a compromise.

---

Yeah , if the Russians were training thousands of their troops in Mexico while pushing for the Mexicans to join the Warsaw Pact ……

The US would be totally fine with it .

Good grief , take a step back and look at this situation without the jingoistic blinders .

This US engineered process in Ukraine was needlessly provocative.

Ukraine is not vital to US security needs . Never has been .

---

Is that before or after the US invades Mexico and claims Tamaulipas, Veracruz, Campeche and Yucatan and all of its offshore oil reserves as US territory?

Canada2017 said:

---

Bear8084 said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

Bear8084 said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

Bear8084 said:

---

The only one denying an exit is the aggressor country itself. No one else.

---

It's never that simple .

There are many ethnic Russians living in eastern Ukraine who want the Russian military to remain .

---

There are not.

---

So these ethnic Russians who had been fighting the Ukrainians for years for independence…..don't exist ?

---

Mostly Russian Army units and Russian led DNR and LPR puppets. There was little to no popular support for any kind of "separatist" movement in that area until Russia started getting involved and propping up quislings.

---

Well that certainly clears things up . No popular uprising from the thousands of ethnic Russians living in those eastern provinces that bordered Russia .

Guess the Russians also blew up their own North Sea natural gas pipelines as well . Took huge financial losses rather than merely shut the outflow valves .

Those Russians certainly are diabolical.

---

Glad I could help.

Canada2017 said:

---

Bear8084 said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

Bear8084 said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

Bear8084 said:

---

The only one denying an exit is the aggressor country itself. No one else.

---

It's never that simple .

There are many ethnic Russians living in eastern Ukraine who want the Russian military to remain .

---

There are not.

---

So these ethnic Russians who had been fighting the Ukrainians for years for independence…..don't exist ?

---

Mostly Russian Army units and Russian led DNR and LPR puppets. There was little to no popular support for any kind of "separatist" movement in that area until Russia started getting involved and propping up quislings.

---

Well that certainly clears things up . No popular uprising from the thousands of ethnic Russians living in those eastern provinces that bordered Russia .

Guess the Russians also blew up their own North Sea natural gas pipelines as well . Took huge financial losses rather than merely shut the outflow valves .

Those Russians certainly are diabolical.

---

THe outflow valves were already shut man. There was no gas flowing through those lines. The images of the area are consistent with an internal explosion, meaning it would have had to come from Russian soil.

Bear8084 said:

---

The only one denying an exit is the aggressor country itself. No one else.

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

For almost all of those 220 years, Ukraine has been under Russian rule in some form or another. Now suddenly it's a crisis.

---

And they've desired not be for pretty much all of it.

---

Exactly...nothing new.

---

So Sam. Does Ukraine's desire to be free of Russia count in this at all? Do they have any say? Or, because you and others believe they have been in the Russian "sphere of influence" for 220 years, their die is cast.

---

Most of Ukraine desires peace and would benefit from our cooperation in a negotiated settlement. They accept our weapons instead because that's all we're willing to give.

---

snd you know this how? We're you in the meetings?

---

I know it because Zelensky won a landslide on the promise to make a deal with Russia. He was unable because of right-wing extremists who threatened him and escalated the civil war with our support.

---

So now it's Zelensky's fault that Russia invaded? He forced them to?

---

I'm saying the extremists escalated the war, not Zelensky.

---

The extremist are in the South, pushing for Russia to annex them. You complain of the CIA and NATO training the Ukrainian military, that was common knowledge. We had National Guard & Active troops working with them for 30 years. Unlike Russia that has had Spetznaz instigating this war. How easy is it to find information about that? The US and NATO have been transparent since Ukraine became a sovereign nation, at least as much as you can expect in that area of defense.

This all goes back to the 90's. Russia and Yeltson agreed to Ukrainian sovereignty. He was there with Clinton when the Budapest Memorandum was signed. As non-binding as it is, it does say the US and Britain will support Ukraine defense. Sending advisors and troops to train the Ukrainians is consistent with that agreement. What did they expect them to do? Give back the Nukes and everyone stay away in perpetuity?

I will grant you the NATO memberships for the Baltics and Poland is problematic. I understand what the Russians said about not moving East. But, if those nations want in and not to simply exist as buffers so Russia and Putin feel comfortable? We are talking 44 million people who need to put their lives in limbo so Russia has a comfort zone???? IF we had a competent and functional UN, that would be a place for them to step in and create a compromise.

---

Yeah , if the Russians were training thousands of their troops in Mexico while pushing for the Mexicans to join the Warsaw Pact ……

The US would be totally fine with it .

Good grief , take a step back and look at this situation without the jingoistic blinders .

This US engineered process in Ukraine was needlessly provocative.

Ukraine is not vital to US security needs . Never has been .

---

If we were there when the agreement was signed? They agreed to the US and Britain supporting Ukraine to protect their sovereignty. Good Grief, you act like this all happened as some clandestine backroom that poor Russia didn't know what was going on. It went on before Putin was in power, this isn't some new situation that now needs Russia's attention.

As for Mexico, the US would not agree to the Russian's backstopping Mexican independence in writing. Russia is there now trying to sell Mexico military equipment. Don't see the US attacking. I don't remember M1's rolling into Nicaragua when Putin supplied Cuba? Ortega? Venezula? Peru? Brazil? I don't see us invading nations that accept China's Roads and Belts money. You are talking out your ass on this one. Russia and China have been very active in the Western Hemisphere. The US has not invaded any of them. I know Bay of Pigs in 1961, that was 60 years ago. Even Noriega was over 30 years ago.

Geez, you act like Russia is a child. They were part of the agreement and signed it. They agreed to it when the wall came down and they wanted their missiles back. They agreed to the US working with the biolabs, because the fear was they were not soundly run. You act like Russia is some type of victim. They are the aggressor here.

---

We invaded Cuba …but that's ok.
We invaded Panama …but that's ok.
We invaded Grenada …but that's ok .
We invaded Nicaragua , Haiti , MEXICO and the Dominican Republic .

But somehow that's different .

Amazing double standard you got there fella .

Canada2017 said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

For almost all of those 220 years, Ukraine has been under Russian rule in some form or another. Now suddenly it's a crisis.

---

And they've desired not be for pretty much all of it.

---

Exactly...nothing new.

---

So Sam. Does Ukraine's desire to be free of Russia count in this at all? Do they have any say? Or, because you and others believe they have been in the Russian "sphere of influence" for 220 years, their die is cast.

---

Most of Ukraine desires peace and would benefit from our cooperation in a negotiated settlement. They accept our weapons instead because that's all we're willing to give.

---

snd you know this how? We're you in the meetings?

---

I know it because Zelensky won a landslide on the promise to make a deal with Russia. He was unable because of right-wing extremists who threatened him and escalated the civil war with our support.

---

So now it's Zelensky's fault that Russia invaded? He forced them to?

---

I'm saying the extremists escalated the war, not Zelensky.

---

The extremist are in the South, pushing for Russia to annex them. You complain of the CIA and NATO training the Ukrainian military, that was common knowledge. We had National Guard & Active troops working with them for 30 years. Unlike Russia that has had Spetznaz instigating this war. How easy is it to find information about that? The US and NATO have been transparent since Ukraine became a sovereign nation, at least as much as you can expect in that area of defense.

This all goes back to the 90's. Russia and Yeltson agreed to Ukrainian sovereignty. He was there with Clinton when the Budapest Memorandum was signed. As non-binding as it is, it does say the US and Britain will support Ukraine defense. Sending advisors and troops to train the Ukrainians is consistent with that agreement. What did they expect them to do? Give back the Nukes and everyone stay away in perpetuity?

I will grant you the NATO memberships for the Baltics and Poland is problematic. I understand what the Russians said about not moving East. But, if those nations want in and not to simply exist as buffers so Russia and Putin feel comfortable? We are talking 44 million people who need to put their lives in limbo so Russia has a comfort zone???? IF we had a competent and functional UN, that would be a place for them to step in and create a compromise.

---

Yeah , if the Russians were training thousands of their troops in Mexico while pushing for the Mexicans to join the Warsaw Pact ……

The US would be totally fine with it .

Good grief , take a step back and look at this situation without the jingoistic blinders .

This US engineered process in Ukraine was needlessly provocative.

Ukraine is not vital to US security needs . Never has been .

---

If we were there when the agreement was signed? They agreed to the US and Britain supporting Ukraine to protect their sovereignty. Good Grief, you act like this all happened as some clandestine backroom that poor Russia didn't know what was going on. It went on before Putin was in power, this isn't some new situation that now needs Russia's attention.

As for Mexico, the US would not agree to the Russian's backstopping Mexican independence in writing. Russia is there now trying to sell Mexico military equipment. Don't see the US attacking. I don't remember M1's rolling into Nicaragua when Putin supplied Cuba? Ortega? Venezula? Peru? Brazil? I don't see us invading nations that accept China's Roads and Belts money. You are talking out your ass on this one. Russia and China have been very active in the Western Hemisphere. The US has not invaded any of them. I know Bay of Pigs in 1961, that was 60 years ago. Even Noriega was over 30 years ago.

Geez, you act like Russia is a child. They were part of the agreement and signed it. They agreed to it when the wall came down and they wanted their missiles back. They agreed to the US working with the biolabs, because the fear was they were not soundly run. You act like Russia is some type of victim. They are the aggressor here.

---

We invaded Cuba …but that's ok.
We invaded Panama …but that's ok.
We invaded Grenada …but that's ok .
We invaded Nicaragua , Haiti , MEXICO and the Dominican Republic .

But somehow that's different .

Amazing double standard you got there fella .

---

Geez. You are going back 30 years and more. I am talking right now. Russia invaded in February.

You are trying to compare different eras in history using your moral compass at 67 or whatever age you are. How about staying in the last decade, so we are all talking about the same thing. The morals of the Boer War, may not apply today...

Rome invaded Germania those *******s...

Canada2017 said:

---

We invaded Cuba …but that's ok.
We invaded Panama …but that's ok.
We invaded Grenada …but that's ok .
We invaded Nicaragua , Haiti , MEXICO and the Dominican Republic .

But somehow that's different .

Amazing double standard you got there fella .

---

Is there a moral equivalent here? I remember Noriega declaring war on us before we captured him.

RMF5630 said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

For almost all of those 220 years, Ukraine has been under Russian rule in some form or another. Now suddenly it's a crisis.

---

And they've desired not be for pretty much all of it.

---

Exactly...nothing new.

---

So Sam. Does Ukraine's desire to be free of Russia count in this at all? Do they have any say? Or, because you and others believe they have been in the Russian "sphere of influence" for 220 years, their die is cast.

---

Most of Ukraine desires peace and would benefit from our cooperation in a negotiated settlement. They accept our weapons instead because that's all we're willing to give.

---

snd you know this how? We're you in the meetings?

---

I know it because Zelensky won a landslide on the promise to make a deal with Russia. He was unable because of right-wing extremists who threatened him and escalated the civil war with our support.

---

So now it's Zelensky's fault that Russia invaded? He forced them to?

---

I'm saying the extremists escalated the war, not Zelensky.

---

The extremist are in the South, pushing for Russia to annex them. You complain of the CIA and NATO training the Ukrainian military, that was common knowledge. We had National Guard & Active troops working with them for 30 years. Unlike Russia that has had Spetznaz instigating this war. How easy is it to find information about that? The US and NATO have been transparent since Ukraine became a sovereign nation, at least as much as you can expect in that area of defense.

This all goes back to the 90's. Russia and Yeltson agreed to Ukrainian sovereignty. He was there with Clinton when the Budapest Memorandum was signed. As non-binding as it is, it does say the US and Britain will support Ukraine defense. Sending advisors and troops to train the Ukrainians is consistent with that agreement. What did they expect them to do? Give back the Nukes and everyone stay away in perpetuity?

I will grant you the NATO memberships for the Baltics and Poland is problematic. I understand what the Russians said about not moving East. But, if those nations want in and not to simply exist as buffers so Russia and Putin feel comfortable? We are talking 44 million people who need to put their lives in limbo so Russia has a comfort zone???? IF we had a competent and functional UN, that would be a place for them to step in and create a compromise.

---

Yeah , if the Russians were training thousands of their troops in Mexico while pushing for the Mexicans to join the Warsaw Pact ……

The US would be totally fine with it .

Good grief , take a step back and look at this situation without the jingoistic blinders .

This US engineered process in Ukraine was needlessly provocative.

Ukraine is not vital to US security needs . Never has been .

---

If we were there when the agreement was signed? They agreed to the US and Britain supporting Ukraine to protect their sovereignty. Good Grief, you act like this all happened as some clandestine backroom that poor Russia didn't know what was going on. It went on before Putin was in power, this isn't some new situation that now needs Russia's attention.

As for Mexico, the US would not agree to the Russian's backstopping Mexican independence in writing. Russia is there now trying to sell Mexico military equipment. Don't see the US attacking. I don't remember M1's rolling into Nicaragua when Putin supplied Cuba? Ortega? Venezula? Peru? Brazil? I don't see us invading nations that accept China's Roads and Belts money. You are talking out your ass on this one. Russia and China have been very active in the Western Hemisphere. The US has not invaded any of them. I know Bay of Pigs in 1961, that was 60 years ago. Even Noriega was over 30 years ago.

Geez, you act like Russia is a child. They were part of the agreement and signed it. They agreed to it when the wall came down and they wanted their missiles back. They agreed to the US working with the biolabs, because the fear was they were not soundly run. You act like Russia is some type of victim. They are the aggressor here.

---

We invaded Cuba …but that's ok.
We invaded Panama …but that's ok.
We invaded Grenada …but that's ok .
We invaded Nicaragua , Haiti , MEXICO and the Dominican Republic .

But somehow that's different .

Amazing double standard you got there fella .

---

Geez. You are going back 30 years and more. I am talking right now. Russia invaded in February.

You are trying to compare different eras in history using your moral compass at 67 or whatever age you are. How about staying in the last decade, so we are all talking about the same thing. The morals of the Boer War, may not apply today...

Rome invaded Germania those *******s...

---

If so now we get to impose time restrictions.

Hilarious

Anything to avoid the obvious .

The US actively attempted to dramatically alter the geo political status of a region that had been part of Russia's sphere of influence for centuries.

Even to the point of pushing for NATO membership .

A membership that in no way fundamentally added to US security interests .

So the Russians invaded . Exactly like the US has done REPEATEDLY in the Western Hemisphere.

Double standard fella…..own it .

Canada2017 said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

For almost all of those 220 years, Ukraine has been under Russian rule in some form or another. Now suddenly it's a crisis.

---

And they've desired not be for pretty much all of it.

---

Exactly...nothing new.

---

So Sam. Does Ukraine's desire to be free of Russia count in this at all? Do they have any say? Or, because you and others believe they have been in the Russian "sphere of influence" for 220 years, their die is cast.

---

Most of Ukraine desires peace and would benefit from our cooperation in a negotiated settlement. They accept our weapons instead because that's all we're willing to give.

---

snd you know this how? We're you in the meetings?

---

I know it because Zelensky won a landslide on the promise to make a deal with Russia. He was unable because of right-wing extremists who threatened him and escalated the civil war with our support.

---

So now it's Zelensky's fault that Russia invaded? He forced them to?

---

I'm saying the extremists escalated the war, not Zelensky.

---

The extremist are in the South, pushing for Russia to annex them. You complain of the CIA and NATO training the Ukrainian military, that was common knowledge. We had National Guard & Active troops working with them for 30 years. Unlike Russia that has had Spetznaz instigating this war. How easy is it to find information about that? The US and NATO have been transparent since Ukraine became a sovereign nation, at least as much as you can expect in that area of defense.

This all goes back to the 90's. Russia and Yeltson agreed to Ukrainian sovereignty. He was there with Clinton when the Budapest Memorandum was signed. As non-binding as it is, it does say the US and Britain will support Ukraine defense. Sending advisors and troops to train the Ukrainians is consistent with that agreement. What did they expect them to do? Give back the Nukes and everyone stay away in perpetuity?

I will grant you the NATO memberships for the Baltics and Poland is problematic. I understand what the Russians said about not moving East. But, if those nations want in and not to simply exist as buffers so Russia and Putin feel comfortable? We are talking 44 million people who need to put their lives in limbo so Russia has a comfort zone???? IF we had a competent and functional UN, that would be a place for them to step in and create a compromise.

---

Yeah , if the Russians were training thousands of their troops in Mexico while pushing for the Mexicans to join the Warsaw Pact ……

The US would be totally fine with it .

Good grief , take a step back and look at this situation without the jingoistic blinders .

This US engineered process in Ukraine was needlessly provocative.

Ukraine is not vital to US security needs . Never has been .

---

If we were there when the agreement was signed? They agreed to the US and Britain supporting Ukraine to protect their sovereignty. Good Grief, you act like this all happened as some clandestine backroom that poor Russia didn't know what was going on. It went on before Putin was in power, this isn't some new situation that now needs Russia's attention.

As for Mexico, the US would not agree to the Russian's backstopping Mexican independence in writing. Russia is there now trying to sell Mexico military equipment. Don't see the US attacking. I don't remember M1's rolling into Nicaragua when Putin supplied Cuba? Ortega? Venezula? Peru? Brazil? I don't see us invading nations that accept China's Roads and Belts money. You are talking out your ass on this one. Russia and China have been very active in the Western Hemisphere. The US has not invaded any of them. I know Bay of Pigs in 1961, that was 60 years ago. Even Noriega was over 30 years ago.

Geez, you act like Russia is a child. They were part of the agreement and signed it. They agreed to it when the wall came down and they wanted their missiles back. They agreed to the US working with the biolabs, because the fear was they were not soundly run. You act like Russia is some type of victim. They are the aggressor here.

---

We invaded Cuba …but that's ok.
We invaded Panama …but that's ok.
We invaded Grenada …but that's ok .
We invaded Nicaragua , Haiti , MEXICO and the Dominican Republic .

But somehow that's different .

Amazing double standard you got there fella .

---

Geez. You are going back 30 years and more. I am talking right now. Russia invaded in February.

You are trying to compare different eras in history using your moral compass at 67 or whatever age you are. How about staying in the last decade, so we are all talking about the same thing. The morals of the Boer War, may not apply today...

Rome invaded Germania those *******s...

---

If so now we get to impose time restrictions.

Hilarious

Anything to avoid the obvious .

The US actively attempted to dramatically alter the geo political status of a region that had been part of Russia's sphere of influence for centuries AT THE BEHEST OF THE PEOPLE THAT LIVE IN THAT REGION AS THEY NO LONGER WANTED TO BE PART OF RUSSIA'S SPHERE OF INFLUENCE.

Even to the point of pushing for NATO membership .

A membership that in no way fundamentally added to US security interests .

So the Russians invaded . Exactly like the US has done REPEATEDLY in the Western Hemisphere.

Double standard fella…..own it .

---

The bold part is what you are continually ignoring.

trey3216 said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

For almost all of those 220 years, Ukraine has been under Russian rule in some form or another. Now suddenly it's a crisis.

---

And they've desired not be for pretty much all of it.

---

Exactly...nothing new.

---

So Sam. Does Ukraine's desire to be free of Russia count in this at all? Do they have any say? Or, because you and others believe they have been in the Russian "sphere of influence" for 220 years, their die is cast.

---

Most of Ukraine desires peace and would benefit from our cooperation in a negotiated settlement. They accept our weapons instead because that's all we're willing to give.

---

snd you know this how? We're you in the meetings?

---

I know it because Zelensky won a landslide on the promise to make a deal with Russia. He was unable because of right-wing extremists who threatened him and escalated the civil war with our support.

---

So now it's Zelensky's fault that Russia invaded? He forced them to?

---

I'm saying the extremists escalated the war, not Zelensky.

---

The extremist are in the South, pushing for Russia to annex them. You complain of the CIA and NATO training the Ukrainian military, that was common knowledge. We had National Guard & Active troops working with them for 30 years. Unlike Russia that has had Spetznaz instigating this war. How easy is it to find information about that? The US and NATO have been transparent since Ukraine became a sovereign nation, at least as much as you can expect in that area of defense.

This all goes back to the 90's. Russia and Yeltson agreed to Ukrainian sovereignty. He was there with Clinton when the Budapest Memorandum was signed. As non-binding as it is, it does say the US and Britain will support Ukraine defense. Sending advisors and troops to train the Ukrainians is consistent with that agreement. What did they expect them to do? Give back the Nukes and everyone stay away in perpetuity?

I will grant you the NATO memberships for the Baltics and Poland is problematic. I understand what the Russians said about not moving East. But, if those nations want in and not to simply exist as buffers so Russia and Putin feel comfortable? We are talking 44 million people who need to put their lives in limbo so Russia has a comfort zone???? IF we had a competent and functional UN, that would be a place for them to step in and create a compromise.

---

Yeah , if the Russians were training thousands of their troops in Mexico while pushing for the Mexicans to join the Warsaw Pact ……

The US would be totally fine with it .

Good grief , take a step back and look at this situation without the jingoistic blinders .

This US engineered process in Ukraine was needlessly provocative.

Ukraine is not vital to US security needs . Never has been .

---

If we were there when the agreement was signed? They agreed to the US and Britain supporting Ukraine to protect their sovereignty. Good Grief, you act like this all happened as some clandestine backroom that poor Russia didn't know what was going on. It went on before Putin was in power, this isn't some new situation that now needs Russia's attention.

As for Mexico, the US would not agree to the Russian's backstopping Mexican independence in writing. Russia is there now trying to sell Mexico military equipment. Don't see the US attacking. I don't remember M1's rolling into Nicaragua when Putin supplied Cuba? Ortega? Venezula? Peru? Brazil? I don't see us invading nations that accept China's Roads and Belts money. You are talking out your ass on this one. Russia and China have been very active in the Western Hemisphere. The US has not invaded any of them. I know Bay of Pigs in 1961, that was 60 years ago. Even Noriega was over 30 years ago.

Geez, you act like Russia is a child. They were part of the agreement and signed it. They agreed to it when the wall came down and they wanted their missiles back. They agreed to the US working with the biolabs, because the fear was they were not soundly run. You act like Russia is some type of victim. They are the aggressor here.

---

We invaded Cuba …but that's ok.
We invaded Panama …but that's ok.
We invaded Grenada …but that's ok .
We invaded Nicaragua , Haiti , MEXICO and the Dominican Republic .

But somehow that's different .

Amazing double standard you got there fella .

---

Geez. You are going back 30 years and more. I am talking right now. Russia invaded in February.

You are trying to compare different eras in history using your moral compass at 67 or whatever age you are. How about staying in the last decade, so we are all talking about the same thing. The morals of the Boer War, may not apply today...

Rome invaded Germania those *******s...

---

It's utterly disgusting how Hannibal had the gall to cross them mountains with Elephants and fight the Romans. They should have stayed in their lane and kissed the ring.

---

In all fairness. If someone on this Board was Russian. Or had family there and had a real Russian point of view, I would love to hear it and discuss. If you do, I would love to know, that changes your standing in this conversation dramatically. I have heard the first hand Ukrainian view from Ukrainians. I have not heard from a Russian.

trey3216 said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

For almost all of those 220 years, Ukraine has been under Russian rule in some form or another. Now suddenly it's a crisis.

---

And they've desired not be for pretty much all of it.

---

Exactly...nothing new.

---

So Sam. Does Ukraine's desire to be free of Russia count in this at all? Do they have any say? Or, because you and others believe they have been in the Russian "sphere of influence" for 220 years, their die is cast.

---

Most of Ukraine desires peace and would benefit from our cooperation in a negotiated settlement. They accept our weapons instead because that's all we're willing to give.

---

snd you know this how? We're you in the meetings?

---

I know it because Zelensky won a landslide on the promise to make a deal with Russia. He was unable because of right-wing extremists who threatened him and escalated the civil war with our support.

---

So now it's Zelensky's fault that Russia invaded? He forced them to?

---

I'm saying the extremists escalated the war, not Zelensky.

---

The extremist are in the South, pushing for Russia to annex them. You complain of the CIA and NATO training the Ukrainian military, that was common knowledge. We had National Guard & Active troops working with them for 30 years. Unlike Russia that has had Spetznaz instigating this war. How easy is it to find information about that? The US and NATO have been transparent since Ukraine became a sovereign nation, at least as much as you can expect in that area of defense.

This all goes back to the 90's. Russia and Yeltson agreed to Ukrainian sovereignty. He was there with Clinton when the Budapest Memorandum was signed. As non-binding as it is, it does say the US and Britain will support Ukraine defense. Sending advisors and troops to train the Ukrainians is consistent with that agreement. What did they expect them to do? Give back the Nukes and everyone stay away in perpetuity?

I will grant you the NATO memberships for the Baltics and Poland is problematic. I understand what the Russians said about not moving East. But, if those nations want in and not to simply exist as buffers so Russia and Putin feel comfortable? We are talking 44 million people who need to put their lives in limbo so Russia has a comfort zone???? IF we had a competent and functional UN, that would be a place for them to step in and create a compromise.

---

Yeah , if the Russians were training thousands of their troops in Mexico while pushing for the Mexicans to join the Warsaw Pact ……

The US would be totally fine with it .

Good grief , take a step back and look at this situation without the jingoistic blinders .

This US engineered process in Ukraine was needlessly provocative.

Ukraine is not vital to US security needs . Never has been .

---

If we were there when the agreement was signed? They agreed to the US and Britain supporting Ukraine to protect their sovereignty. Good Grief, you act like this all happened as some clandestine backroom that poor Russia didn't know what was going on. It went on before Putin was in power, this isn't some new situation that now needs Russia's attention.

As for Mexico, the US would not agree to the Russian's backstopping Mexican independence in writing. Russia is there now trying to sell Mexico military equipment. Don't see the US attacking. I don't remember M1's rolling into Nicaragua when Putin supplied Cuba? Ortega? Venezula? Peru? Brazil? I don't see us invading nations that accept China's Roads and Belts money. You are talking out your ass on this one. Russia and China have been very active in the Western Hemisphere. The US has not invaded any of them. I know Bay of Pigs in 1961, that was 60 years ago. Even Noriega was over 30 years ago.

Geez, you act like Russia is a child. They were part of the agreement and signed it. They agreed to it when the wall came down and they wanted their missiles back. They agreed to the US working with the biolabs, because the fear was they were not soundly run. You act like Russia is some type of victim. They are the aggressor here.

---

We invaded Cuba …but that's ok.
We invaded Panama …but that's ok.
We invaded Grenada …but that's ok .
We invaded Nicaragua , Haiti , MEXICO and the Dominican Republic .

But somehow that's different .

Amazing double standard you got there fella .

---

Geez. You are going back 30 years and more. I am talking right now. Russia invaded in February.

You are trying to compare different eras in history using your moral compass at 67 or whatever age you are. How about staying in the last decade, so we are all talking about the same thing. The morals of the Boer War, may not apply today...

Rome invaded Germania those *******s...

---

If so now we get to impose time restrictions.

Hilarious

Anything to avoid the obvious .

The US actively attempted to dramatically alter the geo political status of a region that had been part of Russia's sphere of influence for centuries AT THE BEHEST OF THE PEOPLE THAT LIVE IN THAT REGION AS THEY NO LONGER WANTED TO BE PART OF RUSSIA'S SPHERE OF INFLUENCE.

Even to the point of pushing for NATO membership .

A membership that in no way fundamentally added to US security interests .

So the Russians invaded . Exactly like the US has done REPEATEDLY in the Western Hemisphere.

Double standard fella…..own it .

---

The bold part is what you are continually ignoring.

---

Trying to keep the conversation apples to apples. The bold is a legitimate point. I have no problem discussing that and looking into it further. Just don't keep telling me how ****ty the US is and implying the rest of the world is some victim.

trey3216 said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

For almost all of those 220 years, Ukraine has been under Russian rule in some form or another. Now suddenly it's a crisis.

---

And they've desired not be for pretty much all of it.

---

Exactly...nothing new.

---

So Sam. Does Ukraine's desire to be free of Russia count in this at all? Do they have any say? Or, because you and others believe they have been in the Russian "sphere of influence" for 220 years, their die is cast.

---

Most of Ukraine desires peace and would benefit from our cooperation in a negotiated settlement. They accept our weapons instead because that's all we're willing to give.

---

snd you know this how? We're you in the meetings?

---

I know it because Zelensky won a landslide on the promise to make a deal with Russia. He was unable because of right-wing extremists who threatened him and escalated the civil war with our support.

---

So now it's Zelensky's fault that Russia invaded? He forced them to?

---

I'm saying the extremists escalated the war, not Zelensky.

---

The extremist are in the South, pushing for Russia to annex them. You complain of the CIA and NATO training the Ukrainian military, that was common knowledge. We had National Guard & Active troops working with them for 30 years. Unlike Russia that has had Spetznaz instigating this war. How easy is it to find information about that? The US and NATO have been transparent since Ukraine became a sovereign nation, at least as much as you can expect in that area of defense.

This all goes back to the 90's. Russia and Yeltson agreed to Ukrainian sovereignty. He was there with Clinton when the Budapest Memorandum was signed. As non-binding as it is, it does say the US and Britain will support Ukraine defense. Sending advisors and troops to train the Ukrainians is consistent with that agreement. What did they expect them to do? Give back the Nukes and everyone stay away in perpetuity?

I will grant you the NATO memberships for the Baltics and Poland is problematic. I understand what the Russians said about not moving East. But, if those nations want in and not to simply exist as buffers so Russia and Putin feel comfortable? We are talking 44 million people who need to put their lives in limbo so Russia has a comfort zone???? IF we had a competent and functional UN, that would be a place for them to step in and create a compromise.

---

Yeah , if the Russians were training thousands of their troops in Mexico while pushing for the Mexicans to join the Warsaw Pact ……

The US would be totally fine with it .

Good grief , take a step back and look at this situation without the jingoistic blinders .

This US engineered process in Ukraine was needlessly provocative.

Ukraine is not vital to US security needs . Never has been .

---

If we were there when the agreement was signed? They agreed to the US and Britain supporting Ukraine to protect their sovereignty. Good Grief, you act like this all happened as some clandestine backroom that poor Russia didn't know what was going on. It went on before Putin was in power, this isn't some new situation that now needs Russia's attention.

As for Mexico, the US would not agree to the Russian's backstopping Mexican independence in writing. Russia is there now trying to sell Mexico military equipment. Don't see the US attacking. I don't remember M1's rolling into Nicaragua when Putin supplied Cuba? Ortega? Venezula? Peru? Brazil? I don't see us invading nations that accept China's Roads and Belts money. You are talking out your ass on this one. Russia and China have been very active in the Western Hemisphere. The US has not invaded any of them. I know Bay of Pigs in 1961, that was 60 years ago. Even Noriega was over 30 years ago.

Geez, you act like Russia is a child. They were part of the agreement and signed it. They agreed to it when the wall came down and they wanted their missiles back. They agreed to the US working with the biolabs, because the fear was they were not soundly run. You act like Russia is some type of victim. They are the aggressor here.

---

We invaded Cuba …but that's ok.
We invaded Panama …but that's ok.
We invaded Grenada …but that's ok .
We invaded Nicaragua , Haiti , MEXICO and the Dominican Republic .

But somehow that's different .

Amazing double standard you got there fella .

---

Geez. You are going back 30 years and more. I am talking right now. Russia invaded in February.

You are trying to compare different eras in history using your moral compass at 67 or whatever age you are. How about staying in the last decade, so we are all talking about the same thing. The morals of the Boer War, may not apply today...

Rome invaded Germania those *******s...

---

If so now we get to impose time restrictions.

Hilarious

Anything to avoid the obvious .

The US actively attempted to dramatically alter the geo political status of a region that had been part of Russia's sphere of influence for centuries AT THE BEHEST OF THE PEOPLE THAT LIVE IN THAT REGION AS THEY NO LONGER WANTED TO BE PART OF RUSSIA'S SPHERE OF INFLUENCE.

Even to the point of pushing for NATO membership .

A membership that in no way fundamentally added to US security interests .

So the Russians invaded . Exactly like the US has done REPEATEDLY in the Western Hemisphere.

Double standard fella…..own it .

---

The bold part is what you are continually ignoring.

---

Guess what ?

In almost every invasion in the last century ….regardless which country was the aggressor….

That aggressor produced an 'invitation' from some segment of the victim's population.

But we only notice such ' invitations ' ….consider such 'invitations' legitimate…..when it suits us .

RMF5630 said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

For almost all of those 220 years, Ukraine has been under Russian rule in some form or another. Now suddenly it's a crisis.

---

And they've desired not be for pretty much all of it.

---

Exactly...nothing new.

---

So Sam. Does Ukraine's desire to be free of Russia count in this at all? Do they have any say? Or, because you and others believe they have been in the Russian "sphere of influence" for 220 years, their die is cast.

---

Most of Ukraine desires peace and would benefit from our cooperation in a negotiated settlement. They accept our weapons instead because that's all we're willing to give.

---

snd you know this how? We're you in the meetings?

---

I know it because Zelensky won a landslide on the promise to make a deal with Russia. He was unable because of right-wing extremists who threatened him and escalated the civil war with our support.

---

So now it's Zelensky's fault that Russia invaded? He forced them to?

---

I'm saying the extremists escalated the war, not Zelensky.

---

The extremist are in the South, pushing for Russia to annex them. You complain of the CIA and NATO training the Ukrainian military, that was common knowledge. We had National Guard & Active troops working with them for 30 years. Unlike Russia that has had Spetznaz instigating this war. How easy is it to find information about that? The US and NATO have been transparent since Ukraine became a sovereign nation, at least as much as you can expect in that area of defense.

This all goes back to the 90's. Russia and Yeltson agreed to Ukrainian sovereignty. He was there with Clinton when the Budapest Memorandum was signed. As non-binding as it is, it does say the US and Britain will support Ukraine defense. Sending advisors and troops to train the Ukrainians is consistent with that agreement. What did they expect them to do? Give back the Nukes and everyone stay away in perpetuity?

I will grant you the NATO memberships for the Baltics and Poland is problematic. I understand what the Russians said about not moving East. But, if those nations want in and not to simply exist as buffers so Russia and Putin feel comfortable? We are talking 44 million people who need to put their lives in limbo so Russia has a comfort zone???? IF we had a competent and functional UN, that would be a place for them to step in and create a compromise.

---

Yeah , if the Russians were training thousands of their troops in Mexico while pushing for the Mexicans to join the Warsaw Pact ……

The US would be totally fine with it .

Good grief , take a step back and look at this situation without the jingoistic blinders .

This US engineered process in Ukraine was needlessly provocative.

Ukraine is not vital to US security needs . Never has been .

---

If we were there when the agreement was signed? They agreed to the US and Britain supporting Ukraine to protect their sovereignty. Good Grief, you act like this all happened as some clandestine backroom that poor Russia didn't know what was going on. It went on before Putin was in power, this isn't some new situation that now needs Russia's attention.

As for Mexico, the US would not agree to the Russian's backstopping Mexican independence in writing. Russia is there now trying to sell Mexico military equipment. Don't see the US attacking. I don't remember M1's rolling into Nicaragua when Putin supplied Cuba? Ortega? Venezula? Peru? Brazil? I don't see us invading nations that accept China's Roads and Belts money. You are talking out your ass on this one. Russia and China have been very active in the Western Hemisphere. The US has not invaded any of them. I know Bay of Pigs in 1961, that was 60 years ago. Even Noriega was over 30 years ago.

Geez, you act like Russia is a child. They were part of the agreement and signed it. They agreed to it when the wall came down and they wanted their missiles back. They agreed to the US working with the biolabs, because the fear was they were not soundly run. You act like Russia is some type of victim. They are the aggressor here.

---

We invaded Cuba …but that's ok.
We invaded Panama …but that's ok.
We invaded Grenada …but that's ok .
We invaded Nicaragua , Haiti , MEXICO and the Dominican Republic .

But somehow that's different .

Amazing double standard you got there fella .

---

Geez. You are going back 30 years and more. I am talking right now. Russia invaded in February.

You are trying to compare different eras in history using your moral compass at 67 or whatever age you are. How about staying in the last decade, so we are all talking about the same thing. The morals of the Boer War, may not apply today...

Rome invaded Germania those *******s...

---

If so now we get to impose time restrictions.

Hilarious

Anything to avoid the obvious .

The US actively attempted to dramatically alter the geo political status of a region that had been part of Russia's sphere of influence for centuries AT THE BEHEST OF THE PEOPLE THAT LIVE IN THAT REGION AS THEY NO LONGER WANTED TO BE PART OF RUSSIA'S SPHERE OF INFLUENCE.

Even to the point of pushing for NATO membership .

A membership that in no way fundamentally added to US security interests .

So the Russians invaded . Exactly like the US has done REPEATEDLY in the Western Hemisphere.

Double standard fella…..own it .

---

The bold part is what you are continually ignoring.

---

Trying to keep the conversation apples to apples. The bold is a legitimate point. I have no problem discussing that and looking into it further. Just don't keep telling me how ****ty the US is and implying the rest of the world is some victim.

---

Hilarious

No one is saying the US is ****ty .

Merely pointing out both the US and Russia have always aggressively controlled their spheres of influence.

And it's the US that attempted to alter the balance of power in the Russian sphere .

And kept pushing ….even in the face of 200,000 Russian troops .

RMF5630 said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

For almost all of those 220 years, Ukraine has been under Russian rule in some form or another. Now suddenly it's a crisis.

---

And they've desired not be for pretty much all of it.

---

Exactly...nothing new.

---

So Sam. Does Ukraine's desire to be free of Russia count in this at all? Do they have any say? Or, because you and others believe they have been in the Russian "sphere of influence" for 220 years, their die is cast.

---

Most of Ukraine desires peace and would benefit from our cooperation in a negotiated settlement. They accept our weapons instead because that's all we're willing to give.

---

snd you know this how? We're you in the meetings?

---

I know it because Zelensky won a landslide on the promise to make a deal with Russia. He was unable because of right-wing extremists who threatened him and escalated the civil war with our support.

---

So now it's Zelensky's fault that Russia invaded? He forced them to?

---

I'm saying the extremists escalated the war, not Zelensky.

---

The extremist are in the South, pushing for Russia to annex them. You complain of the CIA and NATO training the Ukrainian military, that was common knowledge. We had National Guard & Active troops working with them for 30 years. Unlike Russia that has had Spetznaz instigating this war. How easy is it to find information about that? The US and NATO have been transparent since Ukraine became a sovereign nation, at least as much as you can expect in that area of defense.

This all goes back to the 90's. Russia and Yeltson agreed to Ukrainian sovereignty. He was there with Clinton when the Budapest Memorandum was signed. As non-binding as it is, it does say the US and Britain will support Ukraine defense. Sending advisors and troops to train the Ukrainians is consistent with that agreement. What did they expect them to do? Give back the Nukes and everyone stay away in perpetuity?

I will grant you the NATO memberships for the Baltics and Poland is problematic. I understand what the Russians said about not moving East. But, if those nations want in and not to simply exist as buffers so Russia and Putin feel comfortable? We are talking 44 million people who need to put their lives in limbo so Russia has a comfort zone???? IF we had a competent and functional UN, that would be a place for them to step in and create a compromise.

---

Yeah , if the Russians were training thousands of their troops in Mexico while pushing for the Mexicans to join the Warsaw Pact %85%85

The US would be totally fine with it .

Good grief , take a step back and look at this situation without the jingoistic blinders .

This US engineered process in Ukraine was needlessly provocative.

Ukraine is not vital to US security needs . Never has been .

---

If we were there when the agreement was signed? They agreed to the US and Britain supporting Ukraine to protect their sovereignty. Good Grief, you act like this all happened as some clandestine backroom that poor Russia didn't know what was going on. It went on before Putin was in power, this isn't some new situation that now needs Russia's attention.

As for Mexico, the US would not agree to the Russian's backstopping Mexican independence in writing. Russia is there now trying to sell Mexico military equipment. Don't see the US attacking. I don't remember M1's rolling into Nicaragua when Putin supplied Cuba? Ortega? Venezula? Peru? Brazil? I don't see us invading nations that accept China's Roads and Belts money. You are talking out your ass on this one. Russia and China have been very active in the Western Hemisphere. The US has not invaded any of them. I know Bay of Pigs in 1961, that was 60 years ago. Even Noriega was over 30 years ago.

Geez, you act like Russia is a child. They were part of the agreement and signed it. They agreed to it when the wall came down and they wanted their missiles back. They agreed to the US working with the biolabs, because the fear was they were not soundly run. You act like Russia is some type of victim. They are the aggressor here.

---

We invaded Cuba %85but that's ok.
We invaded Panama %85but that's ok.
We invaded Grenada %85but that's ok .
We invaded Nicaragua , Haiti , MEXICO and the Dominican Republic .

But somehow that's different .

Amazing double standard you got there fella .

---

Geez. You are going back 30 years and more. I am talking right now. Russia invaded in February.

You are trying to compare different eras in history using your moral compass at 67 or whatever age you are. How about staying in the last decade, so we are all talking about the same thing. The morals of the Boer War, may not apply today...

Rome invaded Germania those *******s...

---

It's utterly disgusting how Hannibal had the gall to cross them mountains with Elephants and fight the Romans. They should have stayed in their lane and kissed the ring.

---

In all fairness. If someone on this Board was Russian. Or had family there and had a real Russian point of view, I would love to hear it and discuss. If you do, I would love to know, that changes your standing in this conversation dramatically. I have heard the first hand Ukrainian view from Ukrainians. I have not heard from a Russian.

---

What about the American point of view? That's what always seems to get lost.

RMF5630 said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

For almost all of those 220 years, Ukraine has been under Russian rule in some form or another. Now suddenly it's a crisis.

---

And they've desired not be for pretty much all of it.

---

Exactly...nothing new.

---

So Sam. Does Ukraine's desire to be free of Russia count in this at all? Do they have any say? Or, because you and others believe they have been in the Russian "sphere of influence" for 220 years, their die is cast.

---

Most of Ukraine desires peace and would benefit from our cooperation in a negotiated settlement. They accept our weapons instead because that's all we're willing to give.

---

snd you know this how? We're you in the meetings?

---

I know it because Zelensky won a landslide on the promise to make a deal with Russia. He was unable because of right-wing extremists who threatened him and escalated the civil war with our support.

---

So now it's Zelensky's fault that Russia invaded? He forced them to?

---

I'm saying the extremists escalated the war, not Zelensky.

---

The extremist are in the South, pushing for Russia to annex them. You complain of the CIA and NATO training the Ukrainian military, that was common knowledge. We had National Guard & Active troops working with them for 30 years. Unlike Russia that has had Spetznaz instigating this war. How easy is it to find information about that? The US and NATO have been transparent since Ukraine became a sovereign nation, at least as much as you can expect in that area of defense.

This all goes back to the 90's. Russia and Yeltson agreed to Ukrainian sovereignty. He was there with Clinton when the Budapest Memorandum was signed. As non-binding as it is, it does say the US and Britain will support Ukraine defense. Sending advisors and troops to train the Ukrainians is consistent with that agreement. What did they expect them to do? Give back the Nukes and everyone stay away in perpetuity?

I will grant you the NATO memberships for the Baltics and Poland is problematic. I understand what the Russians said about not moving East. But, if those nations want in and not to simply exist as buffers so Russia and Putin feel comfortable? We are talking 44 million people who need to put their lives in limbo so Russia has a comfort zone???? IF we had a competent and functional UN, that would be a place for them to step in and create a compromise.

---

Yeah , if the Russians were training thousands of their troops in Mexico while pushing for the Mexicans to join the Warsaw Pact ……

The US would be totally fine with it .

Good grief , take a step back and look at this situation without the jingoistic blinders .

This US engineered process in Ukraine was needlessly provocative.

Ukraine is not vital to US security needs . Never has been .

---

If we were there when the agreement was signed? They agreed to the US and Britain supporting Ukraine to protect their sovereignty. Good Grief, you act like this all happened as some clandestine backroom that poor Russia didn't know what was going on. It went on before Putin was in power, this isn't some new situation that now needs Russia's attention.

As for Mexico, the US would not agree to the Russian's backstopping Mexican independence in writing. Russia is there now trying to sell Mexico military equipment. Don't see the US attacking. I don't remember M1's rolling into Nicaragua when Putin supplied Cuba? Ortega? Venezula? Peru? Brazil? I don't see us invading nations that accept China's Roads and Belts money. You are talking out your ass on this one. Russia and China have been very active in the Western Hemisphere. The US has not invaded any of them. I know Bay of Pigs in 1961, that was 60 years ago. Even Noriega was over 30 years ago.

Geez, you act like Russia is a child. They were part of the agreement and signed it. They agreed to it when the wall came down and they wanted their missiles back. They agreed to the US working with the biolabs, because the fear was they were not soundly run. You act like Russia is some type of victim. They are the aggressor here.

---

We invaded Cuba …but that's ok.
We invaded Panama …but that's ok.
We invaded Grenada …but that's ok .
We invaded Nicaragua , Haiti , MEXICO and the Dominican Republic .

But somehow that's different .

Amazing double standard you got there fella .

---

Geez. You are going back 30 years and more. I am talking right now. Russia invaded in February.

You are trying to compare different eras in history using your moral compass at 67 or whatever age you are. How about staying in the last decade, so we are all talking about the same thing. The morals of the Boer War, may not apply today...

Rome invaded Germania those *******s...

---

It's utterly disgusting how Hannibal had the gall to cross them mountains with Elephants and fight the Romans. They should have stayed in their lane and kissed the ring.

---

In all fairness. If someone on this Board was Russian. Or had family there and had a real Russian point of view, I would love to hear it and discuss. If you do, I would love to know, that changes your standing in this conversation dramatically. I have heard the first hand Ukrainian view from Ukrainians. I have not heard from a Russian.

---

Good buddy of mine's wife, and the S-I-L of a former Baylor athlete is Russian. She is absolutely appalled by the whole situation and is beyond embarrassed to admit she's from there. She can't stand what they're doing, sad she can't go home to visit family, and hates what her country is doing.

Canada2017 said:

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RMF5630 said:

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trey3216 said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

For almost all of those 220 years, Ukraine has been under Russian rule in some form or another. Now suddenly it's a crisis.

---

And they've desired not be for pretty much all of it.

---

Exactly...nothing new.

---

So Sam. Does Ukraine's desire to be free of Russia count in this at all? Do they have any say? Or, because you and others believe they have been in the Russian "sphere of influence" for 220 years, their die is cast.

---

Most of Ukraine desires peace and would benefit from our cooperation in a negotiated settlement. They accept our weapons instead because that's all we're willing to give.

---

snd you know this how? We're you in the meetings?

---

I know it because Zelensky won a landslide on the promise to make a deal with Russia. He was unable because of right-wing extremists who threatened him and escalated the civil war with our support.

---

So now it's Zelensky's fault that Russia invaded? He forced them to?

---

I'm saying the extremists escalated the war, not Zelensky.

---

The extremist are in the South, pushing for Russia to annex them. You complain of the CIA and NATO training the Ukrainian military, that was common knowledge. We had National Guard & Active troops working with them for 30 years. Unlike Russia that has had Spetznaz instigating this war. How easy is it to find information about that? The US and NATO have been transparent since Ukraine became a sovereign nation, at least as much as you can expect in that area of defense.

This all goes back to the 90's. Russia and Yeltson agreed to Ukrainian sovereignty. He was there with Clinton when the Budapest Memorandum was signed. As non-binding as it is, it does say the US and Britain will support Ukraine defense. Sending advisors and troops to train the Ukrainians is consistent with that agreement. What did they expect them to do? Give back the Nukes and everyone stay away in perpetuity?

I will grant you the NATO memberships for the Baltics and Poland is problematic. I understand what the Russians said about not moving East. But, if those nations want in and not to simply exist as buffers so Russia and Putin feel comfortable? We are talking 44 million people who need to put their lives in limbo so Russia has a comfort zone???? IF we had a competent and functional UN, that would be a place for them to step in and create a compromise.

---

Yeah , if the Russians were training thousands of their troops in Mexico while pushing for the Mexicans to join the Warsaw Pact ……

The US would be totally fine with it .

Good grief , take a step back and look at this situation without the jingoistic blinders .

This US engineered process in Ukraine was needlessly provocative.

Ukraine is not vital to US security needs . Never has been .

---

If we were there when the agreement was signed? They agreed to the US and Britain supporting Ukraine to protect their sovereignty. Good Grief, you act like this all happened as some clandestine backroom that poor Russia didn't know what was going on. It went on before Putin was in power, this isn't some new situation that now needs Russia's attention.

As for Mexico, the US would not agree to the Russian's backstopping Mexican independence in writing. Russia is there now trying to sell Mexico military equipment. Don't see the US attacking. I don't remember M1's rolling into Nicaragua when Putin supplied Cuba? Ortega? Venezula? Peru? Brazil? I don't see us invading nations that accept China's Roads and Belts money. You are talking out your ass on this one. Russia and China have been very active in the Western Hemisphere. The US has not invaded any of them. I know Bay of Pigs in 1961, that was 60 years ago. Even Noriega was over 30 years ago.

Geez, you act like Russia is a child. They were part of the agreement and signed it. They agreed to it when the wall came down and they wanted their missiles back. They agreed to the US working with the biolabs, because the fear was they were not soundly run. You act like Russia is some type of victim. They are the aggressor here.

---

We invaded Cuba …but that's ok.
We invaded Panama …but that's ok.
We invaded Grenada …but that's ok .
We invaded Nicaragua , Haiti , MEXICO and the Dominican Republic .

But somehow that's different .

Amazing double standard you got there fella .

---

Geez. You are going back 30 years and more. I am talking right now. Russia invaded in February.

You are trying to compare different eras in history using your moral compass at 67 or whatever age you are. How about staying in the last decade, so we are all talking about the same thing. The morals of the Boer War, may not apply today...

Rome invaded Germania those *******s...

---

If so now we get to impose time restrictions.

Hilarious

Anything to avoid the obvious .

The US actively attempted to dramatically alter the geo political status of a region that had been part of Russia's sphere of influence for centuries AT THE BEHEST OF THE PEOPLE THAT LIVE IN THAT REGION AS THEY NO LONGER WANTED TO BE PART OF RUSSIA'S SPHERE OF INFLUENCE.

Even to the point of pushing for NATO membership .

A membership that in no way fundamentally added to US security interests .

So the Russians invaded . Exactly like the US has done REPEATEDLY in the Western Hemisphere.

Double standard fella…..own it .

---

The bold part is what you are continually ignoring.

---

Trying to keep the conversation apples to apples. The bold is a legitimate point. I have no problem discussing that and looking into it further. Just don't keep telling me how ****ty the US is and implying the rest of the world is some victim.

---

Hilarious

No one is saying the US is ****ty .

Merely pointing out both the US and Russia have always aggressively controlled their spheres of influence.

And it's the US that attempted to alter the balance of power in the Russian sphere .

And kept pushing ….even in the face of 200,000 Russian troops .

---

the US was warning for months prior to the invasion that Russia was actually going to invade. Ukraine didn't believe it at first. US intel picked up on it pretty early. I made statements on the main board thread late Dec last year and early Jan this year that Russia basically had to invade, because they didn't have the $$ to continue the "exercise" for any longer. Simple math goes a long way sometimes.

RMF5630 said:

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trey3216 said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

For almost all of those 220 years, Ukraine has been under Russian rule in some form or another. Now suddenly it's a crisis.

---

And they've desired not be for pretty much all of it.

---

Exactly...nothing new.

---

So Sam. Does Ukraine's desire to be free of Russia count in this at all? Do they have any say? Or, because you and others believe they have been in the Russian "sphere of influence" for 220 years, their die is cast.

---

Most of Ukraine desires peace and would benefit from our cooperation in a negotiated settlement. They accept our weapons instead because that's all we're willing to give.

---

snd you know this how? We're you in the meetings?

---

I know it because Zelensky won a landslide on the promise to make a deal with Russia. He was unable because of right-wing extremists who threatened him and escalated the civil war with our support.

---

So now it's Zelensky's fault that Russia invaded? He forced them to?

---

I'm saying the extremists escalated the war, not Zelensky.

---

The extremist are in the South, pushing for Russia to annex them. You complain of the CIA and NATO training the Ukrainian military, that was common knowledge. We had National Guard & Active troops working with them for 30 years. Unlike Russia that has had Spetznaz instigating this war. How easy is it to find information about that? The US and NATO have been transparent since Ukraine became a sovereign nation, at least as much as you can expect in that area of defense.

This all goes back to the 90's. Russia and Yeltson agreed to Ukrainian sovereignty. He was there with Clinton when the Budapest Memorandum was signed. As non-binding as it is, it does say the US and Britain will support Ukraine defense. Sending advisors and troops to train the Ukrainians is consistent with that agreement. What did they expect them to do? Give back the Nukes and everyone stay away in perpetuity?

I will grant you the NATO memberships for the Baltics and Poland is problematic. I understand what the Russians said about not moving East. But, if those nations want in and not to simply exist as buffers so Russia and Putin feel comfortable? We are talking 44 million people who need to put their lives in limbo so Russia has a comfort zone???? IF we had a competent and functional UN, that would be a place for them to step in and create a compromise.

---

Yeah , if the Russians were training thousands of their troops in Mexico while pushing for the Mexicans to join the Warsaw Pact ……

The US would be totally fine with it .

Good grief , take a step back and look at this situation without the jingoistic blinders .

This US engineered process in Ukraine was needlessly provocative.

Ukraine is not vital to US security needs . Never has been .

---

If we were there when the agreement was signed? They agreed to the US and Britain supporting Ukraine to protect their sovereignty. Good Grief, you act like this all happened as some clandestine backroom that poor Russia didn't know what was going on. It went on before Putin was in power, this isn't some new situation that now needs Russia's attention.

As for Mexico, the US would not agree to the Russian's backstopping Mexican independence in writing. Russia is there now trying to sell Mexico military equipment. Don't see the US attacking. I don't remember M1's rolling into Nicaragua when Putin supplied Cuba? Ortega? Venezula? Peru? Brazil? I don't see us invading nations that accept China's Roads and Belts money. You are talking out your ass on this one. Russia and China have been very active in the Western Hemisphere. The US has not invaded any of them. I know Bay of Pigs in 1961, that was 60 years ago. Even Noriega was over 30 years ago.

Geez, you act like Russia is a child. They were part of the agreement and signed it. They agreed to it when the wall came down and they wanted their missiles back. They agreed to the US working with the biolabs, because the fear was they were not soundly run. You act like Russia is some type of victim. They are the aggressor here.

---

We invaded Cuba …but that's ok.
We invaded Panama …but that's ok.
We invaded Grenada …but that's ok .
We invaded Nicaragua , Haiti , MEXICO and the Dominican Republic .

But somehow that's different .

Amazing double standard you got there fella .

---

Geez. You are going back 30 years and more. I am talking right now. Russia invaded in February.

You are trying to compare different eras in history using your moral compass at 67 or whatever age you are. How about staying in the last decade, so we are all talking about the same thing. The morals of the Boer War, may not apply today...

Rome invaded Germania those *******s...

---

It's utterly disgusting how Hannibal had the gall to cross them mountains with Elephants and fight the Romans. They should have stayed in their lane and kissed the ring.

---

In all fairness. If someone on this Board was Russian. Or had family there and had a real Russian point of view, I would love to hear it and discuss. If you do, I would love to know, that changes your standing in this conversation dramatically. I have heard the first hand Ukrainian view from Ukrainians. I have not heard from a Russian.

---

https://twitter.com/wartranslated

A good follow. He translates intercepted calls between Russian soldiers and their families and friends back home.

Canada2017 said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

For almost all of those 220 years, Ukraine has been under Russian rule in some form or another. Now suddenly it's a crisis.

---

And they've desired not be for pretty much all of it.

---

Exactly...nothing new.

---

So Sam. Does Ukraine's desire to be free of Russia count in this at all? Do they have any say? Or, because you and others believe they have been in the Russian "sphere of influence" for 220 years, their die is cast.

---

Most of Ukraine desires peace and would benefit from our cooperation in a negotiated settlement. They accept our weapons instead because that's all we're willing to give.

---

snd you know this how? We're you in the meetings?

---

I know it because Zelensky won a landslide on the promise to make a deal with Russia. He was unable because of right-wing extremists who threatened him and escalated the civil war with our support.

---

So now it's Zelensky's fault that Russia invaded? He forced them to?

---

I'm saying the extremists escalated the war, not Zelensky.

---

The extremist are in the South, pushing for Russia to annex them. You complain of the CIA and NATO training the Ukrainian military, that was common knowledge. We had National Guard & Active troops working with them for 30 years. Unlike Russia that has had Spetznaz instigating this war. How easy is it to find information about that? The US and NATO have been transparent since Ukraine became a sovereign nation, at least as much as you can expect in that area of defense.

This all goes back to the 90's. Russia and Yeltson agreed to Ukrainian sovereignty. He was there with Clinton when the Budapest Memorandum was signed. As non-binding as it is, it does say the US and Britain will support Ukraine defense. Sending advisors and troops to train the Ukrainians is consistent with that agreement. What did they expect them to do? Give back the Nukes and everyone stay away in perpetuity?

I will grant you the NATO memberships for the Baltics and Poland is problematic. I understand what the Russians said about not moving East. But, if those nations want in and not to simply exist as buffers so Russia and Putin feel comfortable? We are talking 44 million people who need to put their lives in limbo so Russia has a comfort zone???? IF we had a competent and functional UN, that would be a place for them to step in and create a compromise.

---

Yeah , if the Russians were training thousands of their troops in Mexico while pushing for the Mexicans to join the Warsaw Pact ……

The US would be totally fine with it .

Good grief , take a step back and look at this situation without the jingoistic blinders .

This US engineered process in Ukraine was needlessly provocative.

Ukraine is not vital to US security needs . Never has been .

---

If we were there when the agreement was signed? They agreed to the US and Britain supporting Ukraine to protect their sovereignty. Good Grief, you act like this all happened as some clandestine backroom that poor Russia didn't know what was going on. It went on before Putin was in power, this isn't some new situation that now needs Russia's attention.

As for Mexico, the US would not agree to the Russian's backstopping Mexican independence in writing. Russia is there now trying to sell Mexico military equipment. Don't see the US attacking. I don't remember M1's rolling into Nicaragua when Putin supplied Cuba? Ortega? Venezula? Peru? Brazil? I don't see us invading nations that accept China's Roads and Belts money. You are talking out your ass on this one. Russia and China have been very active in the Western Hemisphere. The US has not invaded any of them. I know Bay of Pigs in 1961, that was 60 years ago. Even Noriega was over 30 years ago.

Geez, you act like Russia is a child. They were part of the agreement and signed it. They agreed to it when the wall came down and they wanted their missiles back. They agreed to the US working with the biolabs, because the fear was they were not soundly run. You act like Russia is some type of victim. They are the aggressor here.

---

We invaded Cuba …but that's ok.
We invaded Panama …but that's ok.
We invaded Grenada …but that's ok .
We invaded Nicaragua , Haiti , MEXICO and the Dominican Republic .

But somehow that's different .

Amazing double standard you got there fella .

---

Geez. You are going back 30 years and more. I am talking right now. Russia invaded in February.

You are trying to compare different eras in history using your moral compass at 67 or whatever age you are. How about staying in the last decade, so we are all talking about the same thing. The morals of the Boer War, may not apply today...

Rome invaded Germania those *******s...

---

If so now we get to impose time restrictions.

Hilarious

Anything to avoid the obvious .

The US actively attempted to dramatically alter the geo political status of a region that had been part of Russia's sphere of influence for centuries AT THE BEHEST OF THE PEOPLE THAT LIVE IN THAT REGION AS THEY NO LONGER WANTED TO BE PART OF RUSSIA'S SPHERE OF INFLUENCE.

Even to the point of pushing for NATO membership .

A membership that in no way fundamentally added to US security interests .

So the Russians invaded . Exactly like the US has done REPEATEDLY in the Western Hemisphere.

Double standard fella…..own it .

---

The bold part is what you are continually ignoring.

---

Guess what ?

In almost every invasion in the last century ….regardless which country was the aggressor….

That aggressor produced an 'invitation' from some segment of the victim's population.

But we only notice such ' invitations ' ….consider such 'invitations' legitimate…..when it suits us .

---

Such invitations are only valid from the sitting Government. Using that logic, illegals can cross the border and then ask the Nation they just left to invade. If the Nation is strong enough, that is legit? Heck, half of Hawaii wants to go back to its own nation. Should we just leave?


You are defending Viktor Yanukovych, the guy was found guilty of Treason and ran to Russia. He turned down inclusion in the EU for Russian loan bail outs??? Yeah, that is above board...

Oldbear83 said:

---

Referring to both the US and Russia having 'spheres of influence' seems to imply both moral and geographic equivalency.

That is certainly not the case.

---

I agree. For the most part, I understand there are some outliers, the US has consistently sided on the side of freedom of opportunity, open markets, and democracy. I realize Saudi and some of the Middle East nations are different, there are some realities everyone has to face.

But I have rarely, if ever, heard of someone from a Nation the US has worked with believe they are worse off because of the US influence.

Oldbear83 said:

---

Referring to both the US and Russia having 'spheres of influence' seems to imply both moral and geographic equivalency.

That is certainly not the case.

---

Some of our rep in reference to ' morality ' has been earned.....but, oh brother, much has also been self anointed .

There are many Mexicans and Central Americans who still hate the 'gringo' for our arrogance in US dealings with their countries throughout the years . Got more than one lecture about US imperialism every trip to Buenos Aires .

There are many people throughout the Middle East who somehow don't appreciate our drone strikes . Yeah, I know its hard to believe but there are a lot of misguided people who don't appreciate having their relatives blown to bits ......mere collateral damage don't you know.

Wonder how many Serbs lost relatives from Bill Clinton's air campaign. Think they love US morality ?

Are we better than the Russians in terms of brutality and incidences of rape....absolutely .

Are we generally the ' good guys' in comparison to the most of the rest of the world ......absolutely .

But don't try to sell that approach to anyone who lost relatives in the Tokyo fire bombings . 100,000 people burned alive in a single night . Few of them wearing a military uniform .

The 'good guys ' grossly miscalculated in Ukraine . With a functional idiot like Biden as Commander in Chief that shouldn't be are hard fact to grasp. .

But here we are.

The only solution now is a negotiate peace.

And to obtain such a peace acceptable to the Ukrainians....mostly likely Putin will have to be 'removed' first.

In the most 'moral ' way available........ of course.

Canada2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Referring to both the US and Russia having 'spheres of influence' seems to imply both moral and geographic equivalency.

That is certainly not the case.

---

Some of our rep in reference to ' morality ' has been earned.....but, oh brother, much has also been self anointed .

There are many Mexicans and Central Americans who still hate the 'gringo' for our arrogance in US dealings with their countries throughout the years . Got more than one lecture about US imperialism every trip to Buenos Aires .

There are many people throughout the Middle East who somehow don't appreciate our drone strikes . Yeah, I know its hard to believe but there are a lot of misguided people who don't appreciate having their relatives blown to bits ......mere collateral damage don't you know.

Wonder how many Serbs lost relatives from Bill Clinton's air campaign. Think they love US morality ?

Are we better than the Russians in terms of brutality and incidences of rape....absolutely .

Are we generally the ' good guys' in comparison to the most of the rest of the world ......absolutely .

But don't try to sell that approach to anyone who lost relatives in the Tokyo fire bombings . 100,000 people burned alive in a single night . Hardly any of them wearing a military uniform .

The 'good guys ' grossly miscalculated in Ukraine . With a functional idiot like Biden as Commander in Chief that shouldn't be are hard fact to grasp. .

But here we are.

The only solution now is a negotiate peace.

And to obtain such a peace acceptable to the Ukrainians....mostly likely Putin will have to be 'removed' first.

In the most 'moral ' way available........ of course.

---

Of course, moral about all else.

By the way, I do agree with you on Iraq and Afghanistan. I was not in favor of either as long term wars or nation building

If you are going to nation build, you do it right like we did in Germany, Japan, and Taiwan (Yes, I consider that a success helping Chai Kan Shek.)

What we did in Iraq and Afghanistan were half assed efforts. We should not have gone into Iraq and gotten out of Afghanistan when the man hunt was over.

By the way, we do not have troops in Ukraine. We seem to lose track of that. We are supplying weapons and intel to a willing defender. Personally, I think Ukraine should have been admitted with the Baltics and they should have joined the EU. Just my opinion/

Canada2017 said:

---

Bear8084 said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

Bear8084 said:

---

The only one denying an exit is the aggressor country itself. No one else.

---

It's never that simple .

There are many ethnic Russians living in eastern Ukraine who want the Russian military to remain .

---

There are not.

---

So these ethnic Russians who had been fighting the Ukrainians for years for independence…..don't exist ?

---

oh, they exist. but a lot of them are Spetnatz, too.

In the Donbas conflict, there are Russian troops in civilian clothes. There are Russian expatriates living in Ukraine. There are Russian speaking Ukrainians. There are Ukrainian speaking Ukrainians.

Nothing furthers Russian imperialism more than conflating those first three categories.

Bear8084 said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

Bear8084 said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

Bear8084 said:

---

The only one denying an exit is the aggressor country itself. No one else.

---

It's never that simple .

There are many ethnic Russians living in eastern Ukraine who want the Russian military to remain .

---

There are not.

---

So these ethnic Russians who had been fighting the Ukrainians for years for independence…..don't exist ?

---

Mostly Russian Army units and Russian led DNR and LPR puppets. There was little to no popular support for any kind of "separatist" movement in that area until Russia started getting involved and propping up quislings with support, money and weapons.

They were on the run until Russia sent in units in 2014 to stop the rout and freeze the lines.

---

Aha. Now we have (in bold) a definition of "escalation." It means "we won the war so Russia had to intervene."

whiterock said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

Bear8084 said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

Bear8084 said:

---

The only one denying an exit is the aggressor country itself. No one else.

---

It's never that simple .

There are many ethnic Russians living in eastern Ukraine who want the Russian military to remain .

---

There are not.

---

So these ethnic Russians who had been fighting the Ukrainians for years for independence…..don't exist ?

---

oh, they exist. but a lot of them are Spetnatz, too.

In the Donbas conflict, there are Russian troops in civilian clothes. There are Russian expatriates living in Ukraine. There are Russian speaking Ukrainians. There are Ukrainian speaking Ukrainians.

Nothing furthers Russian imperialism more than conflating those first three categories.

---

But that's ok. It is in their sphere of historic influence. Like the South China Sea and Taiwan.

Canada2017 said:

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RMF5630 said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

trey3216 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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For almost all of those 220 years, Ukraine has been under Russian rule in some form or another. Now suddenly it's a crisis.

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And they've desired not be for pretty much all of it.

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Exactly...nothing new.

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So Sam. Does Ukraine's desire to be free of Russia count in this at all? Do they have any say? Or, because you and others believe they have been in the Russian "sphere of influence" for 220 years, their die is cast.

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Most of Ukraine desires peace and would benefit from our cooperation in a negotiated settlement. They accept our weapons instead because that's all we're willing to give.

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snd you know this how? We're you in the meetings?

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I know it because Zelensky won a landslide on the promise to make a deal with Russia. He was unable because of right-wing extremists who threatened him and escalated the civil war with our support.

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So now it's Zelensky's fault that Russia invaded? He forced them to?

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I'm saying the extremists escalated the war, not Zelensky.

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The extremist are in the South, pushing for Russia to annex them. You complain of the CIA and NATO training the Ukrainian military, that was common knowledge. We had National Guard & Active troops working with them for 30 years. Unlike Russia that has had Spetznaz instigating this war. How easy is it to find information about that? The US and NATO have been transparent since Ukraine became a sovereign nation, at least as much as you can expect in that area of defense.

This all goes back to the 90's. Russia and Yeltson agreed to Ukrainian sovereignty. He was there with Clinton when the Budapest Memorandum was signed. As non-binding as it is, it does say the US and Britain will support Ukraine defense. Sending advisors and troops to train the Ukrainians is consistent with that agreement. What did they expect them to do? Give back the Nukes and everyone stay away in perpetuity?

I will grant you the NATO memberships for the Baltics and Poland is problematic. I understand what the Russians said about not moving East. But, if those nations want in and not to simply exist as buffers so Russia and Putin feel comfortable? We are talking 44 million people who need to put their lives in limbo so Russia has a comfort zone???? IF we had a competent and functional UN, that would be a place for them to step in and create a compromise.

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Yeah , if the Russians were training thousands of their troops in Mexico while pushing for the Mexicans to join the Warsaw Pact ……

The US would be totally fine with it .

Good grief , take a step back and look at this situation without the jingoistic blinders .

This US engineered process in Ukraine was needlessly provocative.

Ukraine is not vital to US security needs . Never has been .

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If we were there when the agreement was signed? They agreed to the US and Britain supporting Ukraine to protect their sovereignty. Good Grief, you act like this all happened as some clandestine backroom that poor Russia didn't know what was going on. It went on before Putin was in power, this isn't some new situation that now needs Russia's attention.

As for Mexico, the US would not agree to the Russian's backstopping Mexican independence in writing. Russia is there now trying to sell Mexico military equipment. Don't see the US attacking. I don't remember M1's rolling into Nicaragua when Putin supplied Cuba? Ortega? Venezula? Peru? Brazil? I don't see us invading nations that accept China's Roads and Belts money. You are talking out your ass on this one. Russia and China have been very active in the Western Hemisphere. The US has not invaded any of them. I know Bay of Pigs in 1961, that was 60 years ago. Even Noriega was over 30 years ago.

Geez, you act like Russia is a child. They were part of the agreement and signed it. They agreed to it when the wall came down and they wanted their missiles back. They agreed to the US working with the biolabs, because the fear was they were not soundly run. You act like Russia is some type of victim. They are the aggressor here.

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We invaded Cuba …but that's ok.
We invaded Panama …but that's ok.
We invaded Grenada …but that's ok .
We invaded Nicaragua , Haiti , MEXICO and the Dominican Republic .

But somehow that's different .

Amazing double standard you got there fella .

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It is very different. We left those countries without engaging in occupation, and those countries remain sovereign and intact.

whiterock said:

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Canada2017 said:

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RMF5630 said:

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Canada2017 said:

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RMF5630 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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whiterock said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

For almost all of those 220 years, Ukraine has been under Russian rule in some form or another. Now suddenly it's a crisis.

---

And they've desired not be for pretty much all of it.

---

Exactly...nothing new.

---

So Sam. Does Ukraine's desire to be free of Russia count in this at all? Do they have any say? Or, because you and others believe they have been in the Russian "sphere of influence" for 220 years, their die is cast.

---

Most of Ukraine desires peace and would benefit from our cooperation in a negotiated settlement. They accept our weapons instead because that's all we're willing to give.

---

snd you know this how? We're you in the meetings?

---

I know it because Zelensky won a landslide on the promise to make a deal with Russia. He was unable because of right-wing extremists who threatened him and escalated the civil war with our support.

---

So now it's Zelensky's fault that Russia invaded? He forced them to?

---

I'm saying the extremists escalated the war, not Zelensky.

---

The extremist are in the South, pushing for Russia to annex them. You complain of the CIA and NATO training the Ukrainian military, that was common knowledge. We had National Guard & Active troops working with them for 30 years. Unlike Russia that has had Spetznaz instigating this war. How easy is it to find information about that? The US and NATO have been transparent since Ukraine became a sovereign nation, at least as much as you can expect in that area of defense.

This all goes back to the 90's. Russia and Yeltson agreed to Ukrainian sovereignty. He was there with Clinton when the Budapest Memorandum was signed. As non-binding as it is, it does say the US and Britain will support Ukraine defense. Sending advisors and troops to train the Ukrainians is consistent with that agreement. What did they expect them to do? Give back the Nukes and everyone stay away in perpetuity?

I will grant you the NATO memberships for the Baltics and Poland is problematic. I understand what the Russians said about not moving East. But, if those nations want in and not to simply exist as buffers so Russia and Putin feel comfortable? We are talking 44 million people who need to put their lives in limbo so Russia has a comfort zone???? IF we had a competent and functional UN, that would be a place for them to step in and create a compromise.

---

Yeah , if the Russians were training thousands of their troops in Mexico while pushing for the Mexicans to join the Warsaw Pact ……

The US would be totally fine with it .

Good grief , take a step back and look at this situation without the jingoistic blinders .

This US engineered process in Ukraine was needlessly provocative.

Ukraine is not vital to US security needs . Never has been .

---

If we were there when the agreement was signed? They agreed to the US and Britain supporting Ukraine to protect their sovereignty. Good Grief, you act like this all happened as some clandestine backroom that poor Russia didn't know what was going on. It went on before Putin was in power, this isn't some new situation that now needs Russia's attention.

As for Mexico, the US would not agree to the Russian's backstopping Mexican independence in writing. Russia is there now trying to sell Mexico military equipment. Don't see the US attacking. I don't remember M1's rolling into Nicaragua when Putin supplied Cuba? Ortega? Venezula? Peru? Brazil? I don't see us invading nations that accept China's Roads and Belts money. You are talking out your ass on this one. Russia and China have been very active in the Western Hemisphere. The US has not invaded any of them. I know Bay of Pigs in 1961, that was 60 years ago. Even Noriega was over 30 years ago.

Geez, you act like Russia is a child. They were part of the agreement and signed it. They agreed to it when the wall came down and they wanted their missiles back. They agreed to the US working with the biolabs, because the fear was they were not soundly run. You act like Russia is some type of victim. They are the aggressor here.

---

We invaded Cuba …but that's ok.
We invaded Panama …but that's ok.
We invaded Grenada …but that's ok .
We invaded Nicaragua , Haiti , MEXICO and the Dominican Republic .

But somehow that's different .

Amazing double standard you got there fella .

---

It is very different. We left those countries without engaging in occupation, and those countries remain sovereign and intact.

---

That don't count. He didn't address that Russia was a signatory to the US and Britain committing to support protecting Ukraine's sovereignty, than Russia is shocked when we follow through.

whiterock said:

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Canada2017 said:

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RMF5630 said:

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Canada2017 said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

For almost all of those 220 years, Ukraine has been under Russian rule in some form or another. Now suddenly it's a crisis.

---

And they've desired not be for pretty much all of it.

---

Exactly...nothing new.

---

So Sam. Does Ukraine's desire to be free of Russia count in this at all? Do they have any say? Or, because you and others believe they have been in the Russian "sphere of influence" for 220 years, their die is cast.

---

Most of Ukraine desires peace and would benefit from our cooperation in a negotiated settlement. They accept our weapons instead because that's all we're willing to give.

---

snd you know this how? We're you in the meetings?

---

I know it because Zelensky won a landslide on the promise to make a deal with Russia. He was unable because of right-wing extremists who threatened him and escalated the civil war with our support.

---

So now it's Zelensky's fault that Russia invaded? He forced them to?

---

I'm saying the extremists escalated the war, not Zelensky.

---

The extremist are in the South, pushing for Russia to annex them. You complain of the CIA and NATO training the Ukrainian military, that was common knowledge. We had National Guard & Active troops working with them for 30 years. Unlike Russia that has had Spetznaz instigating this war. How easy is it to find information about that? The US and NATO have been transparent since Ukraine became a sovereign nation, at least as much as you can expect in that area of defense.

This all goes back to the 90's. Russia and Yeltson agreed to Ukrainian sovereignty. He was there with Clinton when the Budapest Memorandum was signed. As non-binding as it is, it does say the US and Britain will support Ukraine defense. Sending advisors and troops to train the Ukrainians is consistent with that agreement. What did they expect them to do? Give back the Nukes and everyone stay away in perpetuity?

I will grant you the NATO memberships for the Baltics and Poland is problematic. I understand what the Russians said about not moving East. But, if those nations want in and not to simply exist as buffers so Russia and Putin feel comfortable? We are talking 44 million people who need to put their lives in limbo so Russia has a comfort zone???? IF we had a competent and functional UN, that would be a place for them to step in and create a compromise.

---

Yeah , if the Russians were training thousands of their troops in Mexico while pushing for the Mexicans to join the Warsaw Pact ……

The US would be totally fine with it .

Good grief , take a step back and look at this situation without the jingoistic blinders .

This US engineered process in Ukraine was needlessly provocative.

Ukraine is not vital to US security needs . Never has been .

---

If we were there when the agreement was signed? They agreed to the US and Britain supporting Ukraine to protect their sovereignty. Good Grief, you act like this all happened as some clandestine backroom that poor Russia didn't know what was going on. It went on before Putin was in power, this isn't some new situation that now needs Russia's attention.

As for Mexico, the US would not agree to the Russian's backstopping Mexican independence in writing. Russia is there now trying to sell Mexico military equipment. Don't see the US attacking. I don't remember M1's rolling into Nicaragua when Putin supplied Cuba? Ortega? Venezula? Peru? Brazil? I don't see us invading nations that accept China's Roads and Belts money. You are talking out your ass on this one. Russia and China have been very active in the Western Hemisphere. The US has not invaded any of them. I know Bay of Pigs in 1961, that was 60 years ago. Even Noriega was over 30 years ago.

Geez, you act like Russia is a child. They were part of the agreement and signed it. They agreed to it when the wall came down and they wanted their missiles back. They agreed to the US working with the biolabs, because the fear was they were not soundly run. You act like Russia is some type of victim. They are the aggressor here.

---

We invaded Cuba …but that's ok.
We invaded Panama …but that's ok.
We invaded Grenada …but that's ok .
We invaded Nicaragua , Haiti , MEXICO and the Dominican Republic .

But somehow that's different .

Amazing double standard you got there fella .

---

It is very different. We left those countries without engaging in occupation, and those countries remain sovereign and intact.

---

Your comment requires a broad sense of humor.

US occupation of Nicaragua lasted for 20 years. Resulted in regime change friendly to the US .

US occupation of Haiti lasted for almost 19 years. Resulted in regime change friendly to the US.

US invasion of Panama resulted with Panama Defense Forces being dissolved, their president getting kidnapped and thrown into US federal prison. Where he remained for almost 15 years. The United Nations General Assembly and Organization of American States condemned the invasion as a violation of international law. Net result ....regime change friendly to the US.

Grenada invasion resulted in regime change friendly to the US.

Pershing 'Expedition' into Mexico lasted just under one year. Result....failure to capture Pancho Villa elevated him to everlasting hero status with many Mexicans . Also left decades of Mexican bitterness toward all 'gringos' .

US invaded Columbia ....aiding local rebels in their declaration of independence . Result...the United States acquired the 'Canal Zone' under far better terms than the Columbian government had been willing to offer. The US occupied the Panama Canal Zone for 76 years.

US occupied the Dominican Republic for 8 years. Result...establishment of a puppet government friendly to the US.

The US invaded Cuba in the CIA led Bay of Pigs operation . The plan was approved by Eisenhower and carried out by his successor JFK. Result...total failure with the capture of over 1200 'volunteers'. Many of whom were later executed by Castro . Castro's fear of still another US attempt to invade his island directly led to his request for military aid from the Soviet Union . Such aid included nuclear missiles leading to the Cuban Missile crisis .





There are other instances.

But the conclusions should be plainly obvious to anyone .