Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

And it's been that way for years…which brings us back to the question no one wants to answer.

---

Which is?

---

Why now?

---

For the oldest reason of all - to grow your economy by seizing someone else's - before you become too weak (or your opponent too strong) to succeed.

---

Also known as greed.

---

Or survival, depending on one's perspective.

---

Which again begs the same question. If we've accepted Russian hegemony in Ukraine for as long as the United States has existed, why is it suddenly a matter of life and death?

---

It's not .

Never has been……never will be .

Ukrainians starved to death by the thousands prior to WW2 while part of the Soviet Union . Americans barely even noticed .
Post WW2 Stalin executed thousands of Ukrainians and sent thousands more to the gulags for ' collaborating ' with the Germans . Americans barely even noticed .

But now there are billions of US dollars invested in a country where high stakes money laundering is a routine part of business.

Follow the money .

Shatter zones are like two-way streets, they go both ways. Russia has chosen to put troops in the shatter zone while the West responded with weapons.

For Sam and Canada, what would you prefer the response to be from the west?

Canada2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

And it's been that way for years…which brings us back to the question no one wants to answer.

---

Which is?

---

Why now?

---

For the oldest reason of all - to grow your economy by seizing someone else's - before you become too weak (or your opponent too strong) to succeed.

---

Also known as greed.

---

Or survival, depending on one's perspective.

---

Which again begs the same question. If we've accepted Russian hegemony in Ukraine for as long as the United States has existed, why is it suddenly a matter of life and death?

---

It's not .

Never has been……never will be .

Ukrainians starved to death by the thousands prior to WW2 while part of the Soviet Union . Americans barely even noticed .
Post WW2 Stalin executed thousands of Ukrainians and sent thousands more to the gulags for ' collaborating ' with the Germans . Americans barely even noticed .

But now there are billions of US dollars invested in a country where high stakes money laundering is a routine part of business.

Follow the money .

---

We are involved in this war because it is in our strategist interest not to let Russia takeover territory on the western side. Bonus that the public largely supports it. I imagine this is going to go on for a decade or so and end with eastern Ukraine being a buffer zone.

ron.reagan said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

And it's been that way for years…which brings us back to the question no one wants to answer.

---

Which is?

---

Why now?

---

For the oldest reason of all - to grow your economy by seizing someone else's - before you become too weak (or your opponent too strong) to succeed.

---

Also known as greed.

---

Or survival, depending on one's perspective.

---

Which again begs the same question. If we've accepted Russian hegemony in Ukraine for as long as the United States has existed, why is it suddenly a matter of life and death?

---

It's not .

Never has been……never will be .

Ukrainians starved to death by the thousands prior to WW2 while part of the Soviet Union . Americans barely even noticed .
Post WW2 Stalin executed thousands of Ukrainians and sent thousands more to the gulags for ' collaborating ' with the Germans . Americans barely even noticed .

But now there are billions of US dollars invested in a country where high stakes money laundering is a routine part of business.

Follow the money .

---

We are involved in this war because it is in our strategist interest not to let Russia takeover territory on the western side. Bonus that the public largely supports it. I imagine this is going to go on for a decade or so and end with eastern Ukraine being a buffer zone.

---

A. Ukraine has NEVER been a strategic interest of the United States . Period .

B. Most Americans can't find Ukraine on a map even now . But they do know inflation , crime , and the influx of millions of illegals is adversely affecting them . They see the deteriorating cities , the fentanyl deaths , the bizarre cultural changes due to misguided woke programs . Americans want THEIR lives to come FIRST.

C. War will be concluded when Putin is either deposed or dead.

ron.reagan said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

ron.reagan said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

And it's been that way for years…which brings us back to the question no one wants to answer.

---

Which is?

---

Why now?

---

For the oldest reason of all - to grow your economy by seizing someone else's - before you become too weak (or your opponent too strong) to succeed.

---

Also known as greed.

---

Or survival, depending on one's perspective.

---

Which again begs the same question. If we've accepted Russian hegemony in Ukraine for as long as the United States has existed, why is it suddenly a matter of life and death?

---

It's not .

Never has been……never will be .

Ukrainians starved to death by the thousands prior to WW2 while part of the Soviet Union . Americans barely even noticed .
Post WW2 Stalin executed thousands of Ukrainians and sent thousands more to the gulags for ' collaborating ' with the Germans . Americans barely even noticed .

But now there are billions of US dollars invested in a country where high stakes money laundering is a routine part of business.

Follow the money .

---

We are involved in this war because it is in our strategist interest not to let Russia takeover territory on the western side. Bonus that the public largely supports it. I imagine this is going to go on for a decade or so and end with eastern Ukraine being a buffer zone.

---

A. Ukraine has NEVER been a strategic interest of the United States . Period .

B. Most Americans can't find Ukraine on a map even now . But they do know inflation , crime , and the influx of millions of illegals is adversely affecting them . They see the deteriorating cities , the fentanyl deaths , the bizarre cultural changes due to misguided woke programs . Americans want THEIR lives to come FIRST.

C. War will be concluded when Putin is either deposed or dead.

---

You sound like a liberal complaining about not having healthcare because we spend money on the military. This is an amazing opportunity to slow down Russian development. A strong US posture is more important now than ever.

---

Ridiculous

We are spending billions of dollars we simply don't possess on a country the vast majority of Americans barely knew existed prior to the war .

A country that has never been of the slightest interest to the United States for over a 150 years .

Canada2017 said:

---

ron.reagan said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

ron.reagan said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

And it's been that way for years…which brings us back to the question no one wants to answer.

---

Which is?

---

Why now?

---

For the oldest reason of all - to grow your economy by seizing someone else's - before you become too weak (or your opponent too strong) to succeed.

---

Also known as greed.

---

Or survival, depending on one's perspective.

---

Which again begs the same question. If we've accepted Russian hegemony in Ukraine for as long as the United States has existed, why is it suddenly a matter of life and death?

---

It's not .

Never has been……never will be .

Ukrainians starved to death by the thousands prior to WW2 while part of the Soviet Union . Americans barely even noticed .
Post WW2 Stalin executed thousands of Ukrainians and sent thousands more to the gulags for ' collaborating ' with the Germans . Americans barely even noticed .

But now there are billions of US dollars invested in a country where high stakes money laundering is a routine part of business.

Follow the money .

---

We are involved in this war because it is in our strategist interest not to let Russia takeover territory on the western side. Bonus that the public largely supports it. I imagine this is going to go on for a decade or so and end with eastern Ukraine being a buffer zone.

---

A. Ukraine has NEVER been a strategic interest of the United States . Period .

B. Most Americans can't find Ukraine on a map even now . But they do know inflation , crime , and the influx of millions of illegals is adversely affecting them . They see the deteriorating cities , the fentanyl deaths , the bizarre cultural changes due to misguided woke programs . Americans want THEIR lives to come FIRST.

C. War will be concluded when Putin is either deposed or dead.

---

You sound like a liberal complaining about not having healthcare because we spend money on the military. This is an amazing opportunity to slow down Russian development. A strong US posture is more important now than ever.

---

Ridiculous

We are spending billions of dollars we simply don't possess on a country the vast majority of Americans barely knew existed prior to the war .

A country that has never been of the slightest interest to the United States for over a 150 years .

---

I agree. The money flowing to Tanzania has to stop.

Canada2017 said:

---

ron.reagan said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

ron.reagan said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

And it's been that way for years…which brings us back to the question no one wants to answer.

---

Which is?

---

Why now?

---

For the oldest reason of all - to grow your economy by seizing someone else's - before you become too weak (or your opponent too strong) to succeed.

---

Also known as greed.

---

Or survival, depending on one's perspective.

---

Which again begs the same question. If we've accepted Russian hegemony in Ukraine for as long as the United States has existed, why is it suddenly a matter of life and death?

---

It's not .

Never has been……never will be .

Ukrainians starved to death by the thousands prior to WW2 while part of the Soviet Union . Americans barely even noticed .
Post WW2 Stalin executed thousands of Ukrainians and sent thousands more to the gulags for ' collaborating ' with the Germans . Americans barely even noticed .

But now there are billions of US dollars invested in a country where high stakes money laundering is a routine part of business.

Follow the money .

---

We are involved in this war because it is in our strategist interest not to let Russia takeover territory on the western side. Bonus that the public largely supports it. I imagine this is going to go on for a decade or so and end with eastern Ukraine being a buffer zone.

---

A. Ukraine has NEVER been a strategic interest of the United States . Period .

B. Most Americans can't find Ukraine on a map even now . But they do know inflation , crime , and the influx of millions of illegals is adversely affecting them . They see the deteriorating cities , the fentanyl deaths , the bizarre cultural changes due to misguided woke programs . Americans want THEIR lives to come FIRST.

C. War will be concluded when Putin is either deposed or dead.

---

You sound like a liberal complaining about not having healthcare because we spend money on the military. This is an amazing opportunity to slow down Russian development. A strong US posture is more important now than ever.

---

Ridiculous

We are spending billions of dollars we simply don't possess on a country the vast majority of Americans barely knew existed prior to the war .

A country that has never been of the slightest interest to the United States for over a 150 years .

---

We are spending billions of dollars we don't have on a lot of things that we don't need to be, including a lot of programs you support.

Can this war end already?!

I thought Russia was so weak that they're hanging by a thread. What's going on?

trey3216 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Can this war end already?!

I thought Russia was so weak that they're hanging by a thread. What's going on?

---

If you think having to buy equipment from Iran and North Korea means you're strong, then I don't know what to tell you.

---

I didn't say they were strong. Why are extremely weak forces hard to defeat?

Doc Holliday said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Can this war end already?!

I thought Russia was so weak that they're hanging by a thread. What's going on?

---

If you think having to buy equipment from Iran and North Korea means you're strong, then I don't know what to tell you.

---

I didn't say they were strong. Why are extremely weak forces hard to defeat?

---

Even with Ukraine's successes, Russia has had 9 months to reinforce areas. It's taking longer to drive them out, but they are still being driven back. Ukraine is having to advance, de-mine, and reinforce simultaneously. Takes time. Russia has been losing between 650-1000 soldiers per day for almost the past month. That's horrific.

trey3216 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Can this war end already?!

I thought Russia was so weak that they're hanging by a thread. What's going on?

---

If you think having to buy equipment from Iran and North Korea means you're strong, then I don't know what to tell you.

---

I didn't say they were strong. Why are extremely weak forces hard to defeat?

---

Even with Ukraine's successes, Russia has had 9 months to reinforce areas. It's taking longer to drive them out, but they are still being driven back. Ukraine is having to advance, de-mine, and reinforce simultaneously. Takes time. Russia has been losing between 650-1000 soldiers per day for almost the past month. That's horrific.

---

I'm gonna be pissed off if we're having the same conversation in 3 years along with $500 billion in assistance.

Raytheon and congress will be giddy.

Doc Holliday said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Can this war end already?!

I thought Russia was so weak that they're hanging by a thread. What's going on?

---

If you think having to buy equipment from Iran and North Korea means you're strong, then I don't know what to tell you.

---

I didn't say they were strong. Why are extremely weak forces hard to defeat?

---

Even with Ukraine's successes, Russia has had 9 months to reinforce areas. It's taking longer to drive them out, but they are still being driven back. Ukraine is having to advance, de-mine, and reinforce simultaneously. Takes time. Russia has been losing between 650-1000 soldiers per day for almost the past month. That's horrific.

---

I'm gonna be pissed off if we're having the same conversation in 3 years along with $500 billion in assistance.

Raytheon and congress will be giddy.

---

We won't be

trey3216 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Can this war end already?!

I thought Russia was so weak that they're hanging by a thread. What's going on?

---

If you think having to buy equipment from Iran and North Korea means you're strong, then I don't know what to tell you.

---

I didn't say they were strong. Why are extremely weak forces hard to defeat?

---

Even with Ukraine's successes, Russia has had 9 months to reinforce areas. It's taking longer to drive them out, but they are still being driven back. Ukraine is having to advance, de-mine, and reinforce simultaneously. Takes time. Russia has been losing between 650-1000 soldiers per day for almost the past month. That's horrific.

---

I'm gonna be pissed off if we're having the same conversation in 3 years along with $500 billion in assistance.

Raytheon and congress will be giddy.

---

We won't be

---

If we are, how would you feel about it?

Canada2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

And it's been that way for years…which brings us back to the question no one wants to answer.

---

Which is?

---

Why now?

---

For the oldest reason of all - to grow your economy by seizing someone else's - before you become too weak (or your opponent too strong) to succeed.

---

Also known as greed.

---

Or survival, depending on one's perspective.

---

Which again begs the same question. If we've accepted Russian hegemony in Ukraine for as long as the United States has existed, why is it suddenly a matter of life and death?

---

It's not .

Never has been……never will be .

Ukrainians starved to death by the thousands prior to WW2 while part of the Soviet Union . Americans barely even noticed .
Post WW2 Stalin executed thousands of Ukrainians and sent thousands more to the gulags for ' collaborating ' with the Germans . Americans barely even noticed .

But now there are billions of US dollars invested in a country where high stakes money laundering is a routine part of business.

Follow the money .

---

Not only that but the Western Media basically helped the Soviets cover up their mass murder in Ukraine...because they were lefties and always carried water for the Communists (at least up until after Stalin's death in the 1950s)

https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/arts-letters/articles/walter-duranty-ukraine-new-york-times-mr-jones-agnieszka-holland

[How 'The New York Times' Helped Hide Stalin's Mass Murders in Ukraine]

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Shatter zones are like two-way streets, they go both ways. Russia has chosen to put troops in the shatter zone while the West responded with weapons.

For Sam and Canada, what would you prefer the response to be from the west?

---

That part in bold is stated so simply, and in a nutshell.

Our strategic priority is not to dominate (Europe), but rather to make sure no on else does.

It's a very old concept that Britain has managed under leaders like Thatcher, Churchill, Palmerston, Wellington, Nelson, etc.....ally as needed to ensure that no one else establishes hegemony.

or, as Liddell Hart put it....one goes to war to secure a better peace. Supporting Ukraine its war against Russia will help the US secure a better peace.

ron.reagan said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

ron.reagan said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

And it's been that way for years…which brings us back to the question no one wants to answer.

---

Which is?

---

Why now?

---

For the oldest reason of all - to grow your economy by seizing someone else's - before you become too weak (or your opponent too strong) to succeed.

---

Also known as greed.

---

Or survival, depending on one's perspective.

---

Which again begs the same question. If we've accepted Russian hegemony in Ukraine for as long as the United States has existed, why is it suddenly a matter of life and death?

---

It's not .

Never has been……never will be .

Ukrainians starved to death by the thousands prior to WW2 while part of the Soviet Union . Americans barely even noticed .
Post WW2 Stalin executed thousands of Ukrainians and sent thousands more to the gulags for ' collaborating ' with the Germans . Americans barely even noticed .

But now there are billions of US dollars invested in a country where high stakes money laundering is a routine part of business.

Follow the money .

---

We are involved in this war because it is in our strategist interest not to let Russia takeover territory on the western side. Bonus that the public largely supports it. I imagine this is going to go on for a decade or so and end with eastern Ukraine being a buffer zone.

---

A. Ukraine has NEVER been a strategic interest of the United States . Period .

B. Most Americans can't find Ukraine on a map even now . But they do know inflation , crime , and the influx of millions of illegals is adversely affecting them . They see the deteriorating cities , the fentanyl deaths , the bizarre cultural changes due to misguided woke programs . Americans want THEIR lives to come FIRST.

C. War will be concluded when Putin is either deposed or dead.

---

You sound like a liberal complaining about not having healthcare because we spend money on the military. This is an amazing opportunity to slow down Russian development. A strong US posture is more important now than ever.

---

What development?

Its literally not a 1st world nation and its got a negative demographic profile.

Its basically Mexico that is playing at being a major world power.

The average Russian makes less than $10,500 dollars a year....so on the level of Mexico, Argentina, Algeria, Poland, Romania and a host of other 2nd world nations.

For a country of its size its very poor. And with a population that is aging and declining like Japan.

East Asian and Western European countries have low birth rates, high income levels, and long life expectancy.

But Russia though has low birth rates, low income levels, and lower life expectancy (males die around age 64)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Developed_country

https://jamestown.org/program/russias-demographic-collapse-is-accelerating/

Even without wasting money on costly wars (and more importantly lives they can't spare) Russia is gonna have massive problems coming their way over just the next 25 years.

Redbrickbear said:

---

ron.reagan said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

ron.reagan said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

And it's been that way for years…which brings us back to the question no one wants to answer.

---

Which is?

---

Why now?

---

For the oldest reason of all - to grow your economy by seizing someone else's - before you become too weak (or your opponent too strong) to succeed.

---

Also known as greed.

---

Or survival, depending on one's perspective.

---

Which again begs the same question. If we've accepted Russian hegemony in Ukraine for as long as the United States has existed, why is it suddenly a matter of life and death?

---

It's not .

Never has been……never will be .

Ukrainians starved to death by the thousands prior to WW2 while part of the Soviet Union . Americans barely even noticed .
Post WW2 Stalin executed thousands of Ukrainians and sent thousands more to the gulags for ' collaborating ' with the Germans . Americans barely even noticed .

But now there are billions of US dollars invested in a country where high stakes money laundering is a routine part of business.

Follow the money .

---

We are involved in this war because it is in our strategist interest not to let Russia takeover territory on the western side. Bonus that the public largely supports it. I imagine this is going to go on for a decade or so and end with eastern Ukraine being a buffer zone.

---

A. Ukraine has NEVER been a strategic interest of the United States . Period .

B. Most Americans can't find Ukraine on a map even now . But they do know inflation , crime , and the influx of millions of illegals is adversely affecting them . They see the deteriorating cities , the fentanyl deaths , the bizarre cultural changes due to misguided woke programs . Americans want THEIR lives to come FIRST.

C. War will be concluded when Putin is either deposed or dead.

---

You sound like a liberal complaining about not having healthcare because we spend money on the military. This is an amazing opportunity to slow down Russian development. A strong US posture is more important now than ever.

---

What development?

Its literally not a 1st world nation and its got a negative demographic profile.

Its basically Mexico that is playing at being a major world power.

The average Russian makes less than $10,500 dollars a year....so on the level of Mexico, Argentina, Algeria, Poland, Romania and a host of other 2nd world nations.

For a country of its size its very poor. And with a population that is aging and declining like Japan.

East Asian and Western European countries have low birth rates, high income levels, and long life expectancy.

But Russia though has low birth rates, low income levels, and lower life expectancy (males die around age 64)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Developed_country

https://jamestown.org/program/russias-demographic-collapse-is-accelerating/

Even without wasting money on costly wars (and more importantly lives they can't spare) Russia is gonna have massive problems coming their way over just the next 25 years.

---

I'm not worried about the quality of life of Russians improving. What a weird list of cherry picked stats.

ron.reagan said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

ron.reagan said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

ron.reagan said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

And it's been that way for years…which brings us back to the question no one wants to answer.

---

Which is?

---

Why now?

---

For the oldest reason of all - to grow your economy by seizing someone else's - before you become too weak (or your opponent too strong) to succeed.

---

Also known as greed.

---

Or survival, depending on one's perspective.

---

Which again begs the same question. If we've accepted Russian hegemony in Ukraine for as long as the United States has existed, why is it suddenly a matter of life and death?

---

It's not .

Never has been……never will be .

Ukrainians starved to death by the thousands prior to WW2 while part of the Soviet Union . Americans barely even noticed .
Post WW2 Stalin executed thousands of Ukrainians and sent thousands more to the gulags for ' collaborating ' with the Germans . Americans barely even noticed .

But now there are billions of US dollars invested in a country where high stakes money laundering is a routine part of business.

Follow the money .

---

We are involved in this war because it is in our strategist interest not to let Russia takeover territory on the western side. Bonus that the public largely supports it. I imagine this is going to go on for a decade or so and end with eastern Ukraine being a buffer zone.

---

A. Ukraine has NEVER been a strategic interest of the United States . Period .

B. Most Americans can't find Ukraine on a map even now . But they do know inflation , crime , and the influx of millions of illegals is adversely affecting them . They see the deteriorating cities , the fentanyl deaths , the bizarre cultural changes due to misguided woke programs . Americans want THEIR lives to come FIRST.

C. War will be concluded when Putin is either deposed or dead.

---

You sound like a liberal complaining about not having healthcare because we spend money on the military. This is an amazing opportunity to slow down Russian development. A strong US posture is more important now than ever.

---

What development?

Its literally not a 1st world nation and its got a negative demographic profile.

Its basically Mexico that is playing at being a major world power.

The average Russian makes less than $10,500 dollars a year....so on the level of Mexico, Argentina, Algeria, Poland, Romania and a host of other 2nd world nations.

For a country of its size its very poor. And with a population that is aging and declining like Japan.

East Asian and Western European countries have low birth rates, high income levels, and long life expectancy.

But Russia though has low birth rates, low income levels, and lower life expectancy (males die around age 64)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Developed_country

https://jamestown.org/program/russias-demographic-collapse-is-accelerating/

Even without wasting money on costly wars (and more importantly lives they can't spare) Russia is gonna have massive problems coming their way over just the next 25 years.

---

I'm not worried about the quality of life of Russians improving. What a weird list of cherry picked stats.

---

"Cherry picked"...they are just plain stats that show Russia is not a world power.

Over the next 70 years they will have lost at least 25-30 million citizens...maybe far more.

Redbrickbear said:

---

ron.reagan said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

ron.reagan said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

ron.reagan said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

And it's been that way for years…which brings us back to the question no one wants to answer.

---

Which is?

---

Why now?

---

For the oldest reason of all - to grow your economy by seizing someone else's - before you become too weak (or your opponent too strong) to succeed.

---

Also known as greed.

---

Or survival, depending on one's perspective.

---

Which again begs the same question. If we've accepted Russian hegemony in Ukraine for as long as the United States has existed, why is it suddenly a matter of life and death?

---

It's not .

Never has been……never will be .

Ukrainians starved to death by the thousands prior to WW2 while part of the Soviet Union . Americans barely even noticed .
Post WW2 Stalin executed thousands of Ukrainians and sent thousands more to the gulags for ' collaborating ' with the Germans . Americans barely even noticed .

But now there are billions of US dollars invested in a country where high stakes money laundering is a routine part of business.

Follow the money .

---

We are involved in this war because it is in our strategist interest not to let Russia takeover territory on the western side. Bonus that the public largely supports it. I imagine this is going to go on for a decade or so and end with eastern Ukraine being a buffer zone.

---

A. Ukraine has NEVER been a strategic interest of the United States . Period .

B. Most Americans can't find Ukraine on a map even now . But they do know inflation , crime , and the influx of millions of illegals is adversely affecting them . They see the deteriorating cities , the fentanyl deaths , the bizarre cultural changes due to misguided woke programs . Americans want THEIR lives to come FIRST.

C. War will be concluded when Putin is either deposed or dead.

---

You sound like a liberal complaining about not having healthcare because we spend money on the military. This is an amazing opportunity to slow down Russian development. A strong US posture is more important now than ever.

---

What development?

Its literally not a 1st world nation and its got a negative demographic profile.

Its basically Mexico that is playing at being a major world power.

The average Russian makes less than $10,500 dollars a year....so on the level of Mexico, Argentina, Algeria, Poland, Romania and a host of other 2nd world nations.

For a country of its size its very poor. And with a population that is aging and declining like Japan.

East Asian and Western European countries have low birth rates, high income levels, and long life expectancy.

But Russia though has low birth rates, low income levels, and lower life expectancy (males die around age 64)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Developed_country

https://jamestown.org/program/russias-demographic-collapse-is-accelerating/

Even without wasting money on costly wars (and more importantly lives they can't spare) Russia is gonna have massive problems coming their way over just the next 25 years.

---

I'm not worried about the quality of life of Russians improving. What a weird list of cherry picked stats.

---

"Cherry picked"...they are just plain stats that show Russia is not a world power.

Over the next 70 years they will have lost at least 25-30 million citizens...maybe far more.



https://f5s-img.s3.amazonaws.com/001/59/e7/59e73fa99d27ae6675814237735f972a56928e62_1325360_u16393.jpg

---

Call me old fashion but having the capability to destroy the entire planet should classify you as a world power. I'd agree that Russia is in a different tier than China or US. I'm not really sure what you are getting at. It sounds like you think Russia is not a geopolitical threat and shouldn't be taken seriously. If that is the case then I'd rather just not discuss this with you any longer.

Canada2017 said:

---

ron.reagan said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

And it's been that way for years…which brings us back to the question no one wants to answer.

---

Which is?

---

Why now?

---

For the oldest reason of all - to grow your economy by seizing someone else's - before you become too weak (or your opponent too strong) to succeed.

---

Also known as greed.

---

Or survival, depending on one's perspective.

---

Which again begs the same question. If we've accepted Russian hegemony in Ukraine for as long as the United States has existed, why is it suddenly a matter of life and death?

---

It's not .

Never has been……never will be .

Ukrainians starved to death by the thousands prior to WW2 while part of the Soviet Union . Americans barely even noticed .
Post WW2 Stalin executed thousands of Ukrainians and sent thousands more to the gulags for ' collaborating ' with the Germans . Americans barely even noticed .

But now there are billions of US dollars invested in a country where high stakes money laundering is a routine part of business.

Follow the money .

---

We are involved in this war because it is in our strategist interest not to let Russia takeover territory on the western side. Bonus that the public largely supports it. I imagine this is going to go on for a decade or so and end with eastern Ukraine being a buffer zone.

---

A. Ukraine has NEVER been a strategic interest of the United States . Period .

B. Most Americans can't find Ukraine on a map even now . But they do know inflation , crime , and the influx of millions of illegals is adversely affecting them . They see the deteriorating cities , the fentanyl deaths , the bizarre cultural changes due to misguided woke programs . Americans want THEIR lives to come FIRST.

C. War will be concluded when Putin is either deposed or dead.

---

I agree with C.

As for A & B.

A - It was never in play before the 1990's. In the 2000's Ukraine indicated they preferred aligning west.
1 - Since when are nations restricted what they did in the past? At some point, this will be the past.
2 - There is nothing wrong with taking advantage of an opportunity that presents itself. If the Ukrainian people were aligned with Russia our overtures would have fell on deaf ears. Obviously, a significant portion of Ukraine wants to be Western, not Russian.

B - When did the American people's knowledge of geography play into policy? Sort of a false rabbit hole argument.

RMF5630 said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

ron.reagan said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

And it's been that way for years…which brings us back to the question no one wants to answer.

---

Which is?

---

Why now?

---

For the oldest reason of all - to grow your economy by seizing someone else's - before you become too weak (or your opponent too strong) to succeed.

---

Also known as greed.

---

Or survival, depending on one's perspective.

---

Which again begs the same question. If we've accepted Russian hegemony in Ukraine for as long as the United States has existed, why is it suddenly a matter of life and death?

---

It's not .

Never has been……never will be .

Ukrainians starved to death by the thousands prior to WW2 while part of the Soviet Union . Americans barely even noticed .
Post WW2 Stalin executed thousands of Ukrainians and sent thousands more to the gulags for ' collaborating ' with the Germans . Americans barely even noticed .

But now there are billions of US dollars invested in a country where high stakes money laundering is a routine part of business.

Follow the money .

---

We are involved in this war because it is in our strategist interest not to let Russia takeover territory on the western side. Bonus that the public largely supports it. I imagine this is going to go on for a decade or so and end with eastern Ukraine being a buffer zone.

---

A. Ukraine has NEVER been a strategic interest of the United States . Period .

B. Most Americans can't find Ukraine on a map even now . But they do know inflation , crime , and the influx of millions of illegals is adversely affecting them . They see the deteriorating cities , the fentanyl deaths , the bizarre cultural changes due to misguided woke programs . Americans want THEIR lives to come FIRST.

C. War will be concluded when Putin is either deposed or dead.

---

I agree with C.

As for A & B.

A - It was never in play before the 1990's. In the 2000's Ukraine indicated they preferred aligning west.
1 - Since when are nations restricted what they did in the past? At some point, this will be the past.
2 - There is nothing wrong with taking advantage of an opportunity that presents itself. If the Ukrainian people were aligned with Russia our overtures would have fell on deaf ears. Obviously, a significant portion of Ukraine wants to be Western, not Russian.

B - When did the American people's knowledge of geography play into policy? Sort of a false rabbit hole argument.

---

Half of Ukraine never agreed with Western realignment.

That is like saying that since Biden and the Democrats won the last election that the people of America agree with historic statue destruction, transgenderism, open borders, and an end to fossil fuels.

Yanukovych (pro-Russia) won the 2010 runoff election with 48.95% of the vote compared with 45.47% for Tymoshenko (pro-EU). That probably gives a reasonable figure of the pro-EU and anti-EU factions in the country at the time.

Very much split.

Redbrickbear said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

ron.reagan said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

And it's been that way for years…which brings us back to the question no one wants to answer.

---

Which is?

---

Why now?

---

For the oldest reason of all - to grow your economy by seizing someone else's - before you become too weak (or your opponent too strong) to succeed.

---

Also known as greed.

---

Or survival, depending on one's perspective.

---

Which again begs the same question. If we've accepted Russian hegemony in Ukraine for as long as the United States has existed, why is it suddenly a matter of life and death?

---

It's not .

Never has been……never will be .

Ukrainians starved to death by the thousands prior to WW2 while part of the Soviet Union . Americans barely even noticed .
Post WW2 Stalin executed thousands of Ukrainians and sent thousands more to the gulags for ' collaborating ' with the Germans . Americans barely even noticed .

But now there are billions of US dollars invested in a country where high stakes money laundering is a routine part of business.

Follow the money .

---

We are involved in this war because it is in our strategist interest not to let Russia takeover territory on the western side. Bonus that the public largely supports it. I imagine this is going to go on for a decade or so and end with eastern Ukraine being a buffer zone.

---

A. Ukraine has NEVER been a strategic interest of the United States . Period .

B. Most Americans can't find Ukraine on a map even now . But they do know inflation , crime , and the influx of millions of illegals is adversely affecting them . They see the deteriorating cities , the fentanyl deaths , the bizarre cultural changes due to misguided woke programs . Americans want THEIR lives to come FIRST.

C. War will be concluded when Putin is either deposed or dead.

---

I agree with C.

As for A & B.

A - It was never in play before the 1990's. In the 2000's Ukraine indicated they preferred aligning west.
1 - Since when are nations restricted what they did in the past? At some point, this will be the past.
2 - There is nothing wrong with taking advantage of an opportunity that presents itself. If the Ukrainian people were aligned with Russia our overtures would have fell on deaf ears. Obviously, a significant portion of Ukraine wants to be Western, not Russian.

B - When did the American people's knowledge of geography play into policy? Sort of a false rabbit hole argument.

---

Half of Ukraine never agreed with Western realignment.

That is like saying that since Biden and the Democrats won the last election that the people of America agree with historic statue destruction, transgenderism, open borders, and an end to fossil fuels.

---

Yes, Biden won. Elections have consequences. Biden can do that some by Executive Order and some by Congress. Just because you disagree does not give you the right to split the Nation OR go and get a Nation you do like to invade. You can leave, that is your option.

Just like those people that do not agree with the Ukrainians can go to Russia. Have at it. What they can't do is what they are side with an invader. Using your logic a good portion of the SW USA should go to Mexico as they speck Spanish and Mexico used to have the territory. Sort of a silly argument.

RMF5630 said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

ron.reagan said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

And it's been that way for years…which brings us back to the question no one wants to answer.

---

Which is?

---

Why now?

---

For the oldest reason of all - to grow your economy by seizing someone else's - before you become too weak (or your opponent too strong) to succeed.

---

Also known as greed.

---

Or survival, depending on one's perspective.

---

Which again begs the same question. If we've accepted Russian hegemony in Ukraine for as long as the United States has existed, why is it suddenly a matter of life and death?

---

It's not .

Never has been……never will be .

Ukrainians starved to death by the thousands prior to WW2 while part of the Soviet Union . Americans barely even noticed .
Post WW2 Stalin executed thousands of Ukrainians and sent thousands more to the gulags for ' collaborating ' with the Germans . Americans barely even noticed .

But now there are billions of US dollars invested in a country where high stakes money laundering is a routine part of business.

Follow the money .

---

We are involved in this war because it is in our strategist interest not to let Russia takeover territory on the western side. Bonus that the public largely supports it. I imagine this is going to go on for a decade or so and end with eastern Ukraine being a buffer zone.

---

A. Ukraine has NEVER been a strategic interest of the United States . Period .

B. Most Americans can't find Ukraine on a map even now . But they do know inflation , crime , and the influx of millions of illegals is adversely affecting them . They see the deteriorating cities , the fentanyl deaths , the bizarre cultural changes due to misguided woke programs . Americans want THEIR lives to come FIRST.

C. War will be concluded when Putin is either deposed or dead.

---

I agree with C.

As for A & B.

A - It was never in play before the 1990's. In the 2000's Ukraine indicated they preferred aligning west.
1 - Since when are nations restricted what they did in the past? At some point, this will be the past.
2 - There is nothing wrong with taking advantage of an opportunity that presents itself. If the Ukrainian people were aligned with Russia our overtures would have fell on deaf ears. Obviously, a significant portion of Ukraine wants to be Western, not Russian.

B - When did the American people's knowledge of geography play into policy? Sort of a false rabbit hole argument.

---

Not going to waste time going over all this still again .

Hopefully US involvement in this war will end before flag draped coffins arriving at Dover resume .

RMF5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

ron.reagan said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

And it's been that way for years…which brings us back to the question no one wants to answer.

---

Which is?

---

Why now?

---

For the oldest reason of all - to grow your economy by seizing someone else's - before you become too weak (or your opponent too strong) to succeed.

---

Also known as greed.

---

Or survival, depending on one's perspective.

---

Which again begs the same question. If we've accepted Russian hegemony in Ukraine for as long as the United States has existed, why is it suddenly a matter of life and death?

---

It's not .

Never has been……never will be .

Ukrainians starved to death by the thousands prior to WW2 while part of the Soviet Union . Americans barely even noticed .
Post WW2 Stalin executed thousands of Ukrainians and sent thousands more to the gulags for ' collaborating ' with the Germans . Americans barely even noticed .

But now there are billions of US dollars invested in a country where high stakes money laundering is a routine part of business.

Follow the money .

---

We are involved in this war because it is in our strategist interest not to let Russia takeover territory on the western side. Bonus that the public largely supports it. I imagine this is going to go on for a decade or so and end with eastern Ukraine being a buffer zone.

---

A. Ukraine has NEVER been a strategic interest of the United States . Period .

B. Most Americans can't find Ukraine on a map even now . But they do know inflation , crime , and the influx of millions of illegals is adversely affecting them . They see the deteriorating cities , the fentanyl deaths , the bizarre cultural changes due to misguided woke programs . Americans want THEIR lives to come FIRST.

C. War will be concluded when Putin is either deposed or dead.

---

I agree with C.

As for A & B.

A - It was never in play before the 1990's. In the 2000's Ukraine indicated they preferred aligning west.
1 - Since when are nations restricted what they did in the past? At some point, this will be the past.
2 - There is nothing wrong with taking advantage of an opportunity that presents itself. If the Ukrainian people were aligned with Russia our overtures would have fell on deaf ears. Obviously, a significant portion of Ukraine wants to be Western, not Russian.

B - When did the American people's knowledge of geography play into policy? Sort of a false rabbit hole argument.

---

Half of Ukraine never agreed with Western realignment.

That is like saying that since Biden and the Democrats won the last election that the people of America agree with historic statue destruction, transgenderism, open borders, and an end to fossil fuels.

---

Yes, Biden won. Elections have consequences. Biden can do that some by Executive Order and some by Congress. Just because you disagree does not give you the right to split the Nation OR go and get a Nation you do like to invade. You can leave, that is your option.

Just like those people that do not agree with the Ukrainians can go to Russia. Have at it. What they can't do is what they are side with an invader. Using your logic a good portion of the SW USA should go to Mexico as they speck Spanish and Mexico used to have the territory. Sort of a silly argument.

---

The pro-Russian side actually won the 2010 election.....

And no one said the Russian military has a right to invade Ukraine.

You said Ukraine made a choice to join the EU bloc in the 2000s.... that is not true, it didn't.

That issue was very much up in the air all through the 2000s and 2010s

Whenever you're proven to be factual wrong about something you then move to some ridiculous made up hypothetical like "I'm supporting Russia invading Ukraine" or "I'm supporting the idea of Spanish speakers breaking off the Southwest and joining Mexico"

I've never supported those ideas and you only keep bringing them up because you think they help you in this thread.

Redbrickbear said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

ron.reagan said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

And it's been that way for years…which brings us back to the question no one wants to answer.

---

Which is?

---

Why now?

---

For the oldest reason of all - to grow your economy by seizing someone else's - before you become too weak (or your opponent too strong) to succeed.

---

Also known as greed.

---

Or survival, depending on one's perspective.

---

Which again begs the same question. If we've accepted Russian hegemony in Ukraine for as long as the United States has existed, why is it suddenly a matter of life and death?

---

It's not .

Never has been……never will be .

Ukrainians starved to death by the thousands prior to WW2 while part of the Soviet Union . Americans barely even noticed .
Post WW2 Stalin executed thousands of Ukrainians and sent thousands more to the gulags for ' collaborating ' with the Germans . Americans barely even noticed .

But now there are billions of US dollars invested in a country where high stakes money laundering is a routine part of business.

Follow the money .

---

We are involved in this war because it is in our strategist interest not to let Russia takeover territory on the western side. Bonus that the public largely supports it. I imagine this is going to go on for a decade or so and end with eastern Ukraine being a buffer zone.

---

A. Ukraine has NEVER been a strategic interest of the United States . Period .

B. Most Americans can't find Ukraine on a map even now . But they do know inflation , crime , and the influx of millions of illegals is adversely affecting them . They see the deteriorating cities , the fentanyl deaths , the bizarre cultural changes due to misguided woke programs . Americans want THEIR lives to come FIRST.

C. War will be concluded when Putin is either deposed or dead.

---

I agree with C.

As for A & B.

A - It was never in play before the 1990's. In the 2000's Ukraine indicated they preferred aligning west.
1 - Since when are nations restricted what they did in the past? At some point, this will be the past.
2 - There is nothing wrong with taking advantage of an opportunity that presents itself. If the Ukrainian people were aligned with Russia our overtures would have fell on deaf ears. Obviously, a significant portion of Ukraine wants to be Western, not Russian.

B - When did the American people's knowledge of geography play into policy? Sort of a false rabbit hole argument.

---

Half of Ukraine never agreed with Western realignment.

That is like saying that since Biden and the Democrats won the last election that the people of America agree with historic statue destruction, transgenderism, open borders, and an end to fossil fuels.

---

Yes, Biden won. Elections have consequences. Biden can do that some by Executive Order and some by Congress. Just because you disagree does not give you the right to split the Nation OR go and get a Nation you do like to invade. You can leave, that is your option.

Just like those people that do not agree with the Ukrainians can go to Russia. Have at it. What they can't do is what they are side with an invader. Using your logic a good portion of the SW USA should go to Mexico as they speck Spanish and Mexico used to have the territory. Sort of a silly argument.

---

The pro-Russian side actually won the 2010 election.....

And no one said the Russian military has a right to invade Ukraine.

You said Ukraine made a choice to join the EU bloc in the 2000s.... that is not true, it didn't.

That issue was very much up in the air all through the 2000s and 2010s

Whenever you're proven to be factual wrong about something you then move to some ridiculous made up hypothetical like "I'm supporting Russia invading Ukraine" or "I'm supporting the idea of Spanish speakers breaking off the Southwest and joining Mexico"

I've never supported those ideas and you only keep bringing them up because you think they help you in this thread.

---

Did I say that the Pro-Russia side was wrong or that the US should invade?

We are talking about the current situation, since 1990's Ukraine has been a sovereign nation. I don't remember saying we should have done anything in 2010. I said that Ukraine asked for NATO help and asked to join the EU now, we should help. The opportunity did not exist earlier. That is what I said. You said because half the Ukraine didn't agree, implying the move west is not valid.

Your view that all of the nation has to support a government move is ridiculous.

RMF5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

ron.reagan said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

And it's been that way for years…which brings us back to the question no one wants to answer.

---

Which is?

---

Why now?

---

For the oldest reason of all - to grow your economy by seizing someone else's - before you become too weak (or your opponent too strong) to succeed.

---

Also known as greed.

---

Or survival, depending on one's perspective.

---

Which again begs the same question. If we've accepted Russian hegemony in Ukraine for as long as the United States has existed, why is it suddenly a matter of life and death?

---

It's not .

Never has been……never will be .

Ukrainians starved to death by the thousands prior to WW2 while part of the Soviet Union . Americans barely even noticed .
Post WW2 Stalin executed thousands of Ukrainians and sent thousands more to the gulags for ' collaborating ' with the Germans . Americans barely even noticed .

But now there are billions of US dollars invested in a country where high stakes money laundering is a routine part of business.

Follow the money .

---

We are involved in this war because it is in our strategist interest not to let Russia takeover territory on the western side. Bonus that the public largely supports it. I imagine this is going to go on for a decade or so and end with eastern Ukraine being a buffer zone.

---

A. Ukraine has NEVER been a strategic interest of the United States . Period .

B. Most Americans can't find Ukraine on a map even now . But they do know inflation , crime , and the influx of millions of illegals is adversely affecting them . They see the deteriorating cities , the fentanyl deaths , the bizarre cultural changes due to misguided woke programs . Americans want THEIR lives to come FIRST.

C. War will be concluded when Putin is either deposed or dead.

---

I agree with C.

As for A & B.

A - It was never in play before the 1990's. In the 2000's Ukraine indicated they preferred aligning west.
1 - Since when are nations restricted what they did in the past? At some point, this will be the past.
2 - There is nothing wrong with taking advantage of an opportunity that presents itself. If the Ukrainian people were aligned with Russia our overtures would have fell on deaf ears. Obviously, a significant portion of Ukraine wants to be Western, not Russian.

B - When did the American people's knowledge of geography play into policy? Sort of a false rabbit hole argument.

---

Half of Ukraine never agreed with Western realignment.

That is like saying that since Biden and the Democrats won the last election that the people of America agree with historic statue destruction, transgenderism, open borders, and an end to fossil fuels.

---

Yes, Biden won. Elections have consequences. Biden can do that some by Executive Order and some by Congress. Just because you disagree does not give you the right to split the Nation OR go and get a Nation you do like to invade. You can leave, that is your option.

Just like those people that do not agree with the Ukrainians can go to Russia. Have at it. What they can't do is what they are side with an invader. Using your logic a good portion of the SW USA should go to Mexico as they speck Spanish and Mexico used to have the territory. Sort of a silly argument.

---

The pro-Russian side actually won the 2010 election.....

And no one said the Russian military has a right to invade Ukraine.

You said Ukraine made a choice to join the EU bloc in the 2000s.... that is not true, it didn't.

That issue was very much up in the air all through the 2000s and 2010s

Whenever you're proven to be factual wrong about something you then move to some ridiculous made up hypothetical like "I'm supporting Russia invading Ukraine" or "I'm supporting the idea of Spanish speakers breaking off the Southwest and joining Mexico"

I've never supported those ideas and you only keep bringing them up because you think they help you in this thread.

---

Did I say that the Pro-Russia side was wrong or that the US should invade?

We are talking about the current situation, since 1990's Ukraine has been a sovereign nation. I don't remember saying we should have done anything in 2010. I said that Ukraine asked for NATO help and asked to join the EU now, we should help. The opportunity did not exist earlier. That is what I said. You said because half the Ukraine didn't agree, implying the move west is not valid.

Your view that all of the nation has to support a government move is ridiculous.

---

If we are talking about the current situation in the year 2022 then way did you say this?

[RMF5630 said:
I agree with C.

As for A & B.

A - In the 2000's Ukraine indicated they preferred aligning west.]

Ukraine of course did not decide that it had made a overwhelming decision to align with the Western bloc in the 2000s.

Half the country was still voting for pro-Russian politicians and Presidential candidates at the time.

Redbrickbear said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

ron.reagan said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

And it's been that way for years…which brings us back to the question no one wants to answer.

---

Which is?

---

Why now?

---

For the oldest reason of all - to grow your economy by seizing someone else's - before you become too weak (or your opponent too strong) to succeed.

---

Also known as greed.

---

Or survival, depending on one's perspective.

---

Which again begs the same question. If we've accepted Russian hegemony in Ukraine for as long as the United States has existed, why is it suddenly a matter of life and death?

---

It's not .

Never has been……never will be .

Ukrainians starved to death by the thousands prior to WW2 while part of the Soviet Union . Americans barely even noticed .
Post WW2 Stalin executed thousands of Ukrainians and sent thousands more to the gulags for ' collaborating ' with the Germans . Americans barely even noticed .

But now there are billions of US dollars invested in a country where high stakes money laundering is a routine part of business.

Follow the money .

---

We are involved in this war because it is in our strategist interest not to let Russia takeover territory on the western side. Bonus that the public largely supports it. I imagine this is going to go on for a decade or so and end with eastern Ukraine being a buffer zone.

---

A. Ukraine has NEVER been a strategic interest of the United States . Period .

B. Most Americans can't find Ukraine on a map even now . But they do know inflation , crime , and the influx of millions of illegals is adversely affecting them . They see the deteriorating cities , the fentanyl deaths , the bizarre cultural changes due to misguided woke programs . Americans want THEIR lives to come FIRST.

C. War will be concluded when Putin is either deposed or dead.

---

I agree with C.

As for A & B.

A - It was never in play before the 1990's. In the 2000's Ukraine indicated they preferred aligning west.
1 - Since when are nations restricted what they did in the past? At some point, this will be the past.
2 - There is nothing wrong with taking advantage of an opportunity that presents itself. If the Ukrainian people were aligned with Russia our overtures would have fell on deaf ears. Obviously, a significant portion of Ukraine wants to be Western, not Russian.

B - When did the American people's knowledge of geography play into policy? Sort of a false rabbit hole argument.

---

Half of Ukraine never agreed with Western realignment.

That is like saying that since Biden and the Democrats won the last election that the people of America agree with historic statue destruction, transgenderism, open borders, and an end to fossil fuels.

Yanukovych (pro-Russia) won the 2010 runoff election with 48.95% of the vote compared with 45.47% for Tymoshenko (pro-EU). That probably gives a reasonable figure of the pro-EU and anti-EU factions in the country.

Very much split.

---

Very much outdated.

Bear8084 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

ron.reagan said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

And it's been that way for years…which brings us back to the question no one wants to answer.

---

Which is?

---

Why now?

---

For the oldest reason of all - to grow your economy by seizing someone else's - before you become too weak (or your opponent too strong) to succeed.

---

Also known as greed.

---

Or survival, depending on one's perspective.

---

Which again begs the same question. If we've accepted Russian hegemony in Ukraine for as long as the United States has existed, why is it suddenly a matter of life and death?

---

It's not .

Never has been……never will be .

Ukrainians starved to death by the thousands prior to WW2 while part of the Soviet Union . Americans barely even noticed .
Post WW2 Stalin executed thousands of Ukrainians and sent thousands more to the gulags for ' collaborating ' with the Germans . Americans barely even noticed .

But now there are billions of US dollars invested in a country where high stakes money laundering is a routine part of business.

Follow the money .

---

We are involved in this war because it is in our strategist interest not to let Russia takeover territory on the western side. Bonus that the public largely supports it. I imagine this is going to go on for a decade or so and end with eastern Ukraine being a buffer zone.

---

A. Ukraine has NEVER been a strategic interest of the United States . Period .

B. Most Americans can't find Ukraine on a map even now . But they do know inflation , crime , and the influx of millions of illegals is adversely affecting them . They see the deteriorating cities , the fentanyl deaths , the bizarre cultural changes due to misguided woke programs . Americans want THEIR lives to come FIRST.

C. War will be concluded when Putin is either deposed or dead.

---

I agree with C.

As for A & B.

A - It was never in play before the 1990's. In the 2000's Ukraine indicated they preferred aligning west.
1 - Since when are nations restricted what they did in the past? At some point, this will be the past.
2 - There is nothing wrong with taking advantage of an opportunity that presents itself. If the Ukrainian people were aligned with Russia our overtures would have fell on deaf ears. Obviously, a significant portion of Ukraine wants to be Western, not Russian.

B - When did the American people's knowledge of geography play into policy? Sort of a false rabbit hole argument.

---

Half of Ukraine never agreed with Western realignment.

That is like saying that since Biden and the Democrats won the last election that the people of America agree with historic statue destruction, transgenderism, open borders, and an end to fossil fuels.

Yanukovych (pro-Russia) won the 2010 runoff election with 48.95% of the vote compared with 45.47% for Tymoshenko (pro-EU). That probably gives a reasonable figure of the pro-EU and anti-EU factions in the country.

Very much split.

---

Very much outdated.

---

But very much relevant when discussing the political climate of the country in the 2000s and early 2010s

Redbrickbear said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

ron.reagan said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

And it's been that way for years…which brings us back to the question no one wants to answer.

---

Which is?

---

Why now?

---

For the oldest reason of all - to grow your economy by seizing someone else's - before you become too weak (or your opponent too strong) to succeed.

---

Also known as greed.

---

Or survival, depending on one's perspective.

---

Which again begs the same question. If we've accepted Russian hegemony in Ukraine for as long as the United States has existed, why is it suddenly a matter of life and death?

---

It's not .

Never has been……never will be .

Ukrainians starved to death by the thousands prior to WW2 while part of the Soviet Union . Americans barely even noticed .
Post WW2 Stalin executed thousands of Ukrainians and sent thousands more to the gulags for ' collaborating ' with the Germans . Americans barely even noticed .

But now there are billions of US dollars invested in a country where high stakes money laundering is a routine part of business.

Follow the money .

---

We are involved in this war because it is in our strategist interest not to let Russia takeover territory on the western side. Bonus that the public largely supports it. I imagine this is going to go on for a decade or so and end with eastern Ukraine being a buffer zone.

---

A. Ukraine has NEVER been a strategic interest of the United States . Period .

B. Most Americans can't find Ukraine on a map even now . But they do know inflation , crime , and the influx of millions of illegals is adversely affecting them . They see the deteriorating cities , the fentanyl deaths , the bizarre cultural changes due to misguided woke programs . Americans want THEIR lives to come FIRST.

C. War will be concluded when Putin is either deposed or dead.

---

I agree with C.

As for A & B.

A - It was never in play before the 1990's. In the 2000's Ukraine indicated they preferred aligning west.
1 - Since when are nations restricted what they did in the past? At some point, this will be the past.
2 - There is nothing wrong with taking advantage of an opportunity that presents itself. If the Ukrainian people were aligned with Russia our overtures would have fell on deaf ears. Obviously, a significant portion of Ukraine wants to be Western, not Russian.

B - When did the American people's knowledge of geography play into policy? Sort of a false rabbit hole argument.

---

Half of Ukraine never agreed with Western realignment.

That is like saying that since Biden and the Democrats won the last election that the people of America agree with historic statue destruction, transgenderism, open borders, and an end to fossil fuels.

---

Yes, Biden won. Elections have consequences. Biden can do that some by Executive Order and some by Congress. Just because you disagree does not give you the right to split the Nation OR go and get a Nation you do like to invade. You can leave, that is your option.

Just like those people that do not agree with the Ukrainians can go to Russia. Have at it. What they can't do is what they are side with an invader. Using your logic a good portion of the SW USA should go to Mexico as they speck Spanish and Mexico used to have the territory. Sort of a silly argument.

---

The pro-Russian side actually won the 2010 election.....

And no one said the Russian military has a right to invade Ukraine.

You said Ukraine made a choice to join the EU bloc in the 2000s.... that is not true, it didn't.

That issue was very much up in the air all through the 2000s and 2010s

Whenever you're proven to be factual wrong about something you then move to some ridiculous made up hypothetical like "I'm supporting Russia invading Ukraine" or "I'm supporting the idea of Spanish speakers breaking off the Southwest and joining Mexico"

I've never supported those ideas and you only keep bringing them up because you think they help you in this thread.

---

Did I say that the Pro-Russia side was wrong or that the US should invade?

We are talking about the current situation, since 1990's Ukraine has been a sovereign nation. I don't remember saying we should have done anything in 2010. I said that Ukraine asked for NATO help and asked to join the EU now, we should help. The opportunity did not exist earlier. That is what I said. You said because half the Ukraine didn't agree, implying the move west is not valid.

Your view that all of the nation has to support a government move is ridiculous.

---

If we are talking about the current situation in the year 2022 then way did you say this?

[RMF5630 said:
I agree with C.

As for A & B.

A - In the 2000's Ukraine indicated they preferred aligning west.]

Ukraine of course did not decided or even indicate that it had made a decision to align with the Western bloc in the 2000s.

Half the country was still voting for pro-Russian politicians and Presidential candidates at the time.

---

It is still the 2000's... This is a friggin message board, not a dissertation defense. 2000's as opposed to the 1900's or 1800's... Recently, since they became a sovereign nation. I didn't put an exact year.

2000 wasn't even this century much less this decade

ron.reagan said:

---

2000 wasn't even this century much less this decade

---

Ok, 2020. Better?

If you really want to be EXACT -

"September 2008: Talks Open on New EU Relationship

The EU and Ukraine begin talks on a new "association agreement" and issue a communiqu that "Ukraine's future is in Europe." The EU considers such agreements to be legally binding contracts that commit countries to developing closer political, legal, and trading ties with the EU and sometimes lead to accession to the bloc. Implementation of the association agreement could mean major changes in Ukraine that would bring it closer to EU standards."

If we really want to play the exact game, 2008 is closer to 2000 that it is 2020...

RMF5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

ron.reagan said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

And it's been that way for years…which brings us back to the question no one wants to answer.

---

Which is?

---

Why now?

---

For the oldest reason of all - to grow your economy by seizing someone else's - before you become too weak (or your opponent too strong) to succeed.

---

Also known as greed.

---

Or survival, depending on one's perspective.

---

Which again begs the same question. If we've accepted Russian hegemony in Ukraine for as long as the United States has existed, why is it suddenly a matter of life and death?

---

It's not .

Never has been……never will be .

Ukrainians starved to death by the thousands prior to WW2 while part of the Soviet Union . Americans barely even noticed .
Post WW2 Stalin executed thousands of Ukrainians and sent thousands more to the gulags for ' collaborating ' with the Germans . Americans barely even noticed .

But now there are billions of US dollars invested in a country where high stakes money laundering is a routine part of business.

Follow the money .

---

We are involved in this war because it is in our strategist interest not to let Russia takeover territory on the western side. Bonus that the public largely supports it. I imagine this is going to go on for a decade or so and end with eastern Ukraine being a buffer zone.

---

A. Ukraine has NEVER been a strategic interest of the United States . Period .

B. Most Americans can't find Ukraine on a map even now . But they do know inflation , crime , and the influx of millions of illegals is adversely affecting them . They see the deteriorating cities , the fentanyl deaths , the bizarre cultural changes due to misguided woke programs . Americans want THEIR lives to come FIRST.

C. War will be concluded when Putin is either deposed or dead.

---

I agree with C.

As for A & B.

A - It was never in play before the 1990's. In the 2000's Ukraine indicated they preferred aligning west.
1 - Since when are nations restricted what they did in the past? At some point, this will be the past.
2 - There is nothing wrong with taking advantage of an opportunity that presents itself. If the Ukrainian people were aligned with Russia our overtures would have fell on deaf ears. Obviously, a significant portion of Ukraine wants to be Western, not Russian.

B - When did the American people's knowledge of geography play into policy? Sort of a false rabbit hole argument.

---

Half of Ukraine never agreed with Western realignment.

That is like saying that since Biden and the Democrats won the last election that the people of America agree with historic statue destruction, transgenderism, open borders, and an end to fossil fuels.

---

Yes, Biden won. Elections have consequences. Biden can do that some by Executive Order and some by Congress. Just because you disagree does not give you the right to split the Nation OR go and get a Nation you do like to invade. You can leave, that is your option.

Just like those people that do not agree with the Ukrainians can go to Russia. Have at it. What they can't do is what they are side with an invader. Using your logic a good portion of the SW USA should go to Mexico as they speck Spanish and Mexico used to have the territory. Sort of a silly argument.

---

The pro-Russian side actually won the 2010 election.....

And no one said the Russian military has a right to invade Ukraine.

You said Ukraine made a choice to join the EU bloc in the 2000s.... that is not true, it didn't.

That issue was very much up in the air all through the 2000s and 2010s

Whenever you're proven to be factual wrong about something you then move to some ridiculous made up hypothetical like "I'm supporting Russia invading Ukraine" or "I'm supporting the idea of Spanish speakers breaking off the Southwest and joining Mexico"

I've never supported those ideas and you only keep bringing them up because you think they help you in this thread.

---

Did I say that the Pro-Russia side was wrong or that the US should invade?

We are talking about the current situation, since 1990's Ukraine has been a sovereign nation. I don't remember saying we should have done anything in 2010. I said that Ukraine asked for NATO help and asked to join the EU now, we should help. The opportunity did not exist earlier. That is what I said. You said because half the Ukraine didn't agree, implying the move west is not valid.

Your view that all of the nation has to support a government move is ridiculous.

---

If we are talking about the current situation in the year 2022 then way did you say this?

[RMF5630 said:
I agree with C.

As for A & B.

A - In the 2000's Ukraine indicated they preferred aligning west.]

Ukraine of course did not decided or even indicate that it had made a decision to align with the Western bloc in the 2000s.

Half the country was still voting for pro-Russian politicians and Presidential candidates at the time.

---

It is still the 2000's... This is a friggin message board, not a dissertation defense. 2000's as opposed to the 1900's or 1800's... Recently, since they became a sovereign nation. I didn't put an exact year.

---

Again if you think Ukraine since independence has been of one mind about Western alignment that is just not accurate.

The political fight between pro-Russian and anti-Russian political parties was very much a major thing from the time Ukraine became independent until the Russian invasion.

It was probably the most contested/controversial part of the their national political issues.

The entire Euromaidan revolution was basically a bloody insurrection in the capital to take out the pro-Russian President and install a pro-EU one. And it was as polarizing and liked/disliked event as the insurrection at our own capital on Jan. 6th

Ukraine might be united in anti-Russian feeling today, after being invaded, but that was very much not true in the early 2000s and early 2010s

Redbrickbear said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

ron.reagan said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

And it's been that way for years…which brings us back to the question no one wants to answer.

---

Which is?

---

Why now?

---

For the oldest reason of all - to grow your economy by seizing someone else's - before you become too weak (or your opponent too strong) to succeed.

---

Also known as greed.

---

Or survival, depending on one's perspective.

---

Which again begs the same question. If we've accepted Russian hegemony in Ukraine for as long as the United States has existed, why is it suddenly a matter of life and death?

---

It's not .

Never has been……never will be .

Ukrainians starved to death by the thousands prior to WW2 while part of the Soviet Union . Americans barely even noticed .
Post WW2 Stalin executed thousands of Ukrainians and sent thousands more to the gulags for ' collaborating ' with the Germans . Americans barely even noticed .

But now there are billions of US dollars invested in a country where high stakes money laundering is a routine part of business.

Follow the money .

---

We are involved in this war because it is in our strategist interest not to let Russia takeover territory on the western side. Bonus that the public largely supports it. I imagine this is going to go on for a decade or so and end with eastern Ukraine being a buffer zone.

---

A. Ukraine has NEVER been a strategic interest of the United States . Period .

B. Most Americans can't find Ukraine on a map even now . But they do know inflation , crime , and the influx of millions of illegals is adversely affecting them . They see the deteriorating cities , the fentanyl deaths , the bizarre cultural changes due to misguided woke programs . Americans want THEIR lives to come FIRST.

C. War will be concluded when Putin is either deposed or dead.

---

I agree with C.

As for A & B.

A - It was never in play before the 1990's. In the 2000's Ukraine indicated they preferred aligning west.
1 - Since when are nations restricted what they did in the past? At some point, this will be the past.
2 - There is nothing wrong with taking advantage of an opportunity that presents itself. If the Ukrainian people were aligned with Russia our overtures would have fell on deaf ears. Obviously, a significant portion of Ukraine wants to be Western, not Russian.

B - When did the American people's knowledge of geography play into policy? Sort of a false rabbit hole argument.

---

Half of Ukraine never agreed with Western realignment.

That is like saying that since Biden and the Democrats won the last election that the people of America agree with historic statue destruction, transgenderism, open borders, and an end to fossil fuels.

Yanukovych (pro-Russia) won the 2010 runoff election with 48.95% of the vote compared with 45.47% for Tymoshenko (pro-EU). That probably gives a reasonable figure of the pro-EU and anti-EU factions in the country at the time.

Very much split.

---

The platforms weren't Russia vs EU. In fact Yanukovych was pro EU in that election. This issue was and still is corruption. Yanukovych turned more "pro Russian" due to other circumstances.