Redbrickbear said:

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https://www.theamericanconservative.com/zelensky-vs-the-ukrainian-orthodox-church/
[The UOC has opposed the invasion and supported the Ukrainian cause. So why is the government calling them Russian agents?]

"On January 2, an Orthodox church in Vinnytsia, Ukraine, was covered in blood. In the morning, a man burst into the church and turned the crucifix over, broke several icons, threw banners on the floor, and finally cut the priest's throat with a razor. A few days earlier, in the city of Chornomorsk, parishioners of an Orthodox church only at the last moment disarmed a man who was about to stab the priest with a knife. In the village of Chechelnyk, a man in camouflage brutally beat a priest right on the street, breaking his nose and shouting curses.

There is a backstory to the above. Stand-up comedians at Kvartal 95, the film studio co-founded by now President Volodymyr Zelenskyy, recently released a video where they obscenely insulted Orthodox priests and publicly wished them death. The video is a news parody in the style of The Daily Show that mocks the church and refers to its clergy as "Russian agents." Many experts see a direct connection between the appeals of the actors and the recent violence..."


"If you think that the United States stood aside while this was unfolding, you are mistaken. The State Department and politicians of both parties carried out work to promote the new church. Two months before the creation of the OCU in 2018, Filaret and Epifaniy met in the United States with Joe Biden, who declared his gratitude for their work. State Department Ambassador for Religious Freedom Samuel Brownback, Secretary of State Mike Pompeo, and special representative for Ukraine Ambassador Kurt Volker declared their support for this project.

Immediately after its creation, the OCU received its first official congratulations from the State Department and the U.S. Embassy. At the same time, Ambassador Brownback and the U.S. ambassador to Greece, Geoffrey Pyattwho was also ambassador to Ukraine from 2013 to 2016visited church leaders and Mount Athos to urge them to recognize the OCU. Both Ambassador Volker and Secretary Pompeo met with Epifaniy many times. All facts indicate that the promotion of the OCU was part of U.S. policy in Ukraine."

"Zelenskyy's secret police have raided monasteries across Ukraine, and even a convent full of nuns, and arrested dozens of priests for no justifiable reasons whatsoever and in clear violation of the Ukrainian Constitution, which no longer matters. And in the face of this, the Biden's administration has said nothing. Not one word. Instead, they continue to push to send Zelenskyy more tax dollars."

---

This makes a lot of sense as maybe underneath the blind loyalty to Zelensky is his alignment with the global anti-Christianity of SPECTRE.

ATL Bear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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ATL Bear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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ATL Bear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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whiterock said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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Anyone pushing us toward nuclear war without seriously considering worst case scenarios is insane. And these people are ****ing insane.

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If you thought the Iraq war was a huge success, just keep trusting them. What could go wrong?

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1. There is no guarantee that supplying tanks to Ukraine from Poland, Germany, England, etc. will lead DIRECTLY to nuclear war.

2. Going from giving Ukraine weapons to go on the offensive to retake their own territory to them having the ability to invade Russia and drive to Moscow is a huge jump.

3. Ukraine seems to only want to drive Russia out of it's territory, not to invade Russia (other than to perhaps force Russia out of Ukraine)

4. There is no guarantee that the person that could replace Putin is worse (as this article suggests)

5. These same cries about pushing towards nuclear war were made with other weapons being supplied to Ukraine. (Go back to the start of this thread for some evidence)

6. No one mentioned Iraq.

7. What them are you referring to trust? This article is about English tanks/politicians. Not American

8. Again no one mentioned Iraq so not sure what that has to do with anything here.

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These are not the arguments of a person who takes the nuclear threat seriously. Are we really supposed to take comfort in the fact that Europe or the US could be destroyed as an INDIRECT and not a DIRECT result of our actions? Please.

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So you have no answer to anything I said so you ignore and go on about the nuclear threat.

We lived with a nuclear threat for 50+ years with it at times much, much closer than now.

Sending tanks to Ukraine from any country does NOT increase the risk of nuclear war anymore than sending any of the other weapons did. Just like many claimed earlier in this thread that it would.

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This is certainly the closest it's been in my lifetime. I wasn't around for the Cuban crisis and can't think of anything else similar.

We did live for a long time with Ukraine under Russian rule. No one I know seems to have been terribly harmed by it.

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Except that this is the closest it has been because of "journalists" saying it is close. Nothing from governments or leaders.

Heck in case you forgot just a few short years ago there were "journalists" here who kept thinking Trump was going to start a nuclear war or war with Iran.

And yet it NEVER happened.

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I would argue that it's somewhat more likely to happen with Russia, given that Russia has nukes.

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Again right now the only people claiming we are close to a nuclear war are the "journalists." Many of the same ones that made the above two claims.

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Well, that's certainly not true. I read an article a while back, and I can't remember the author's name, but he was a former military officer who had experience with computerized war simulations. In his opinion there is no known scenario in which the US drives Russia out of Ukraine without a nuclear exchange. The concern is real. The fact that some journalists may have overreacted on some other occasion really has nothing to do with it.

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OK, let's address that:

" I can't remember the author's name, but he was a former military officer who had experience with computerized war simulations

. In his opinion there is no known scenario in which the US drives Russia out of Ukraine without a nuclear exchange. The concern is real. The fact that some journalists may have overreacted on some other occasion really has nothing to do with it."

Without the name it's difficult to establish the credibility of your source. I happen to know a former Army officer who worked at the War College who also did scenario evaluations. I recall he was clear that most military simulations have very limited practical value, because A) they are teaching exercises for developing policy and practices not forecasts, and B) those exercises are limited in value to military planning, and apply to very specific conditions and situation. Further, whenever someone says 'there is no known scenario' all he is saying is that outcome was not part of the scope of the exercise.

In English, no one who really works with military exercises makes such broad statements.

Basically Sam, your author was basically LARPing in print because he is scared of nukes and wants to sell that fear as rational rather than the paranoia it more likely is.

By the way, let's not pretend that the Russian nuclear forces are exactly in war-ready condition. We already know that Russian officers have sold off tank fuel and parts from their weapons. What are the odds that they have kept the nuclear weapons, which they never planned to use, in sufficient supply and maintenance, to be used against NATO forces known to have their own nukes in better supply and readiness?

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Here's another key factor everyone overlooks = NO ONE ELSE DOES THIS. Not one other nation in the world wargames 24/7-365, with a 3 digit number of people who proudly call themselves nerds spending an entire career doing nothing but gaming in a cubical farm in a geometrically shaped building. We alone have this capability. That is enormously important. It allows us to play a bad hand, a theoretically unwinnable hand very very VERY well, while our adversaries typically make multiple fatal mistakes at multiple levels, from the policy decision, to the strategy, to the tactics, all the way down to having the right tires on the fuel trucks. It's Eisenhower's old dictum to the effect "the plan is nothing; PLANNING is everything."

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You act as if we have not lost 3 major foreign military conflicts in just the past 60 years.

How did that war planning do in those conflicts?

Including two defeats in the last 20 years.

1. The total collapse of our ally S. Vietnam and the reunification of the whole country under a brutal communist regime in N. Vietnam (with massive cultural blowback in the United States home front...beginning of the endless culture wars at home)

2. Failure of the Iraq war. Only some initial goals were ever met (overthrow of the Saddam Baathist regime)...but strategic failure over all.

3. Complete failure of the Afghanistan war. Taliban back in charge...$2.3 trillion wasted...nearly 3,000 dead Americans and possibly 70,000 dead Afghans & Pakistanis.

https://www.brown.edu/news/2021-09-01/costsofwar

https://watson.brown.edu/costsofwar/costs/human/civilians/afghan#:~:text=As%20of%20September%202021%2C%20more,direct%20result%20of%20the%20war.

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We lost the peace in Iraq and Afghanistan, not the war. We could waltz back in either nation and curb stomp them into submission. But we didn't come as conquerors. That's a big problem with modern warfare built around nation building.

The real lesson on Iraq and Afghanistan is Islamic countries don't really value democracy and freedom, and their societies are not developed to function as such. Need to learn to be satisfied with friendly despots.

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That is the kind of excuse making that the D.C. ruling establishment is happy to see you use.

Its a distinction without a difference.

The United States was forced by long term insurgencies to tuck tail and withdraw from both theatres. Iraq went from a Sunni dominated Baathist dictatorship (with almost no allies in the region)...to a Shiite dominated pseudo-democracy allied and under the influence of the Ayatollahs of Iran. Wonderful...great.

Afghanistan was a complete disaster...the Taliban regime we removed from power won the war and forced us into a humiliating withdraw...they are now firmly back in control of the country.

If you want to be more accurate you could say it was closer to Vietnam..."We won all the battles and lost the War"

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Who's making excuses? We actually conquered all nations, unlike ever conquering North Vietnam for example. That's a simple fact. The success of insurgencies in Afghanistan was a direct result of the failure of Afghan desire for our manufactured democracy, and US temperament toward brutal suppression. We should have eliminated the immediate threats, and then let the chaos sort itself out. Instead we had delusions of democracy in the ME only to end up having to let the chaos sort itself out in the end.

Same in Iraq, especially since it was a historically suppressed Shia majority. No shock they aligned with Iran. The blunder in Iraq was ever going in. The strongman was contained, and was containing the crazies.

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I have no idea why you are trying to so hard make excuses for a our political and military leadership.

Yes yes yes...we could have liquidated every Iraqi and Afghan and resettled the countries if we wanted.

But we didn't...and we wouldn't.

But what we did do was fail completely to achieve the objectives our elite ruling class set out with these wars.

These military adventures end in huge numbers of deaths and trillions of dollars spent.

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Read and understand better. Or do I have to take a pot shot at "ruling elites" in order for my criticism to be considered criticism? I literally said the Iraq blunder was "ever going in". We had to militarily act on Afghanistan. We did not have to try to nation build there. The latter is what cost us the most money and lives.

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Harrison Bergeron said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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https://www.theamericanconservative.com/zelensky-vs-the-ukrainian-orthodox-church/
[The UOC has opposed the invasion and supported the Ukrainian cause. So why is the government calling them Russian agents?]

"On January 2, an Orthodox church in Vinnytsia, Ukraine, was covered in blood. In the morning, a man burst into the church and turned the crucifix over, broke several icons, threw banners on the floor, and finally cut the priest's throat with a razor. A few days earlier, in the city of Chornomorsk, parishioners of an Orthodox church only at the last moment disarmed a man who was about to stab the priest with a knife. In the village of Chechelnyk, a man in camouflage brutally beat a priest right on the street, breaking his nose and shouting curses.

There is a backstory to the above. Stand-up comedians at Kvartal 95, the film studio co-founded by now President Volodymyr Zelenskyy, recently released a video where they obscenely insulted Orthodox priests and publicly wished them death. The video is a news parody in the style of The Daily Show that mocks the church and refers to its clergy as "Russian agents." Many experts see a direct connection between the appeals of the actors and the recent violence..."


"If you think that the United States stood aside while this was unfolding, you are mistaken. The State Department and politicians of both parties carried out work to promote the new church. Two months before the creation of the OCU in 2018, Filaret and Epifaniy met in the United States with Joe Biden, who declared his gratitude for their work. State Department Ambassador for Religious Freedom Samuel Brownback, Secretary of State Mike Pompeo, and special representative for Ukraine Ambassador Kurt Volker declared their support for this project.

Immediately after its creation, the OCU received its first official congratulations from the State Department and the U.S. Embassy. At the same time, Ambassador Brownback and the U.S. ambassador to Greece, Geoffrey Pyattwho was also ambassador to Ukraine from 2013 to 2016visited church leaders and Mount Athos to urge them to recognize the OCU. Both Ambassador Volker and Secretary Pompeo met with Epifaniy many times. All facts indicate that the promotion of the OCU was part of U.S. policy in Ukraine."

"Zelenskyy's secret police have raided monasteries across Ukraine, and even a convent full of nuns, and arrested dozens of priests for no justifiable reasons whatsoever and in clear violation of the Ukrainian Constitution, which no longer matters. And in the face of this, the Biden's administration has said nothing. Not one word. Instead, they continue to push to send Zelenskyy more tax dollars."

---

---

So, the whole world, besides Russia and Putin's followers, turn a blind eye to this. The guy comes to Congress and not one major news outlet has pictures, a story, an interview question? Or, are they part of SPECTRE too? Is Robert Shaw training somewhere to steal the Lektor?

BornAgain said:

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why dont we get rid of him instead? that ruthless killer cant even take care of ukraine

is this Biden or Soros plan? to bankrupt our country over period of time by funding Ukraine? let prices go up while supplies go down so lower and middle class US citizens cant afford to live

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Broadly yes - SPECTRE wants global control - contr of limited resources and put the rest under dependency.

RMF5630 said:

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Harrison Bergeron said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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https://www.theamericanconservative.com/zelensky-vs-the-ukrainian-orthodox-church/
[The UOC has opposed the invasion and supported the Ukrainian cause. So why is the government calling them Russian agents?]

"On January 2, an Orthodox church in Vinnytsia, Ukraine, was covered in blood. In the morning, a man burst into the church and turned the crucifix over, broke several icons, threw banners on the floor, and finally cut the priest's throat with a razor. A few days earlier, in the city of Chornomorsk, parishioners of an Orthodox church only at the last moment disarmed a man who was about to stab the priest with a knife. In the village of Chechelnyk, a man in camouflage brutally beat a priest right on the street, breaking his nose and shouting curses.

There is a backstory to the above. Stand-up comedians at Kvartal 95, the film studio co-founded by now President Volodymyr Zelenskyy, recently released a video where they obscenely insulted Orthodox priests and publicly wished them death. The video is a news parody in the style of The Daily Show that mocks the church and refers to its clergy as "Russian agents." Many experts see a direct connection between the appeals of the actors and the recent violence..."


"If you think that the United States stood aside while this was unfolding, you are mistaken. The State Department and politicians of both parties carried out work to promote the new church. Two months before the creation of the OCU in 2018, Filaret and Epifaniy met in the United States with Joe Biden, who declared his gratitude for their work. State Department Ambassador for Religious Freedom Samuel Brownback, Secretary of State Mike Pompeo, and special representative for Ukraine Ambassador Kurt Volker declared their support for this project.

Immediately after its creation, the OCU received its first official congratulations from the State Department and the U.S. Embassy. At the same time, Ambassador Brownback and the U.S. ambassador to Greece, Geoffrey Pyattwho was also ambassador to Ukraine from 2013 to 2016visited church leaders and Mount Athos to urge them to recognize the OCU. Both Ambassador Volker and Secretary Pompeo met with Epifaniy many times. All facts indicate that the promotion of the OCU was part of U.S. policy in Ukraine."

"Zelenskyy's secret police have raided monasteries across Ukraine, and even a convent full of nuns, and arrested dozens of priests for no justifiable reasons whatsoever and in clear violation of the Ukrainian Constitution, which no longer matters. And in the face of this, the Biden's administration has said nothing. Not one word. Instead, they continue to push to send Zelenskyy more tax dollars."

---

---

So, the whole world, besides Russia and Putin's followers, turn a blind eye to this. The guy comes to Congress and not one major news outlet has pictures, a story, an interview question? Or, are they part of SPECTRE too? Is Robert Shaw training somewhere to steal the Lektor?

---

It's the RUSSIAN Orthodox Church. Which has been a vocal supporter of Putin and the Russian cause in the war. And it's not some contrived threat to national security we're talking about. It's a hot war for survival.

Have to cut Zelensky some slack here.......

muddybrazos said:

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Macgregor makes good points every time he speaks. But worth noting, every time he speaks he predicts Russian victory. Consistently. There are others, including higher ranked former officers, who predict otherwise.

whiterock said:

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RMF5630 said:

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Harrison Bergeron said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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https://www.theamericanconservative.com/zelensky-vs-the-ukrainian-orthodox-church/
[The UOC has opposed the invasion and supported the Ukrainian cause. So why is the government calling them Russian agents?]

"On January 2, an Orthodox church in Vinnytsia, Ukraine, was covered in blood. In the morning, a man burst into the church and turned the crucifix over, broke several icons, threw banners on the floor, and finally cut the priest's throat with a razor. A few days earlier, in the city of Chornomorsk, parishioners of an Orthodox church only at the last moment disarmed a man who was about to stab the priest with a knife. In the village of Chechelnyk, a man in camouflage brutally beat a priest right on the street, breaking his nose and shouting curses.

There is a backstory to the above. Stand-up comedians at Kvartal 95, the film studio co-founded by now President Volodymyr Zelenskyy, recently released a video where they obscenely insulted Orthodox priests and publicly wished them death. The video is a news parody in the style of The Daily Show that mocks the church and refers to its clergy as "Russian agents." Many experts see a direct connection between the appeals of the actors and the recent violence..."


"If you think that the United States stood aside while this was unfolding, you are mistaken. The State Department and politicians of both parties carried out work to promote the new church. Two months before the creation of the OCU in 2018, Filaret and Epifaniy met in the United States with Joe Biden, who declared his gratitude for their work. State Department Ambassador for Religious Freedom Samuel Brownback, Secretary of State Mike Pompeo, and special representative for Ukraine Ambassador Kurt Volker declared their support for this project.

Immediately after its creation, the OCU received its first official congratulations from the State Department and the U.S. Embassy. At the same time, Ambassador Brownback and the U.S. ambassador to Greece, Geoffrey Pyattwho was also ambassador to Ukraine from 2013 to 2016visited church leaders and Mount Athos to urge them to recognize the OCU. Both Ambassador Volker and Secretary Pompeo met with Epifaniy many times. All facts indicate that the promotion of the OCU was part of U.S. policy in Ukraine."

"Zelenskyy's secret police have raided monasteries across Ukraine, and even a convent full of nuns, and arrested dozens of priests for no justifiable reasons whatsoever and in clear violation of the Ukrainian Constitution, which no longer matters. And in the face of this, the Biden's administration has said nothing. Not one word. Instead, they continue to push to send Zelenskyy more tax dollars."

---

---

So, the whole world, besides Russia and Putin's followers, turn a blind eye to this. The guy comes to Congress and not one major news outlet has pictures, a story, an interview question? Or, are they part of SPECTRE too? Is Robert Shaw training somewhere to steal the Lektor?

---

It's the RUSSIAN Orthodox Church. Which has been a vocal supporter of Putin and the Russian cause in the war. And it's not some contrived threat to national security we're talking about. It's a hot war for survival.

Have to cut Zelensky some slack here.......

---

He has banned opposition political parties, now harassing/attacking religious denominations, his security forces are arresting and holding without trial people they dislike...some times disappearing them for good.

How much slack does Zelensky get when his side is supposedly the one "fighting for democracy"?

whiterock said:

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muddybrazos said:

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---

Macgregor makes good points every time he speaks. But worth noting, every time he speaks he predicts Russian victory. Consistently. There are others, including higher ranked former officers, who predict otherwise.

---

And the Western media and Military industiral complex's bought and paid for retired US officers are always predicting imminent Ukrainian victory.

So far neither side has been able to win this war.

Both sides are literally turning to trench warfare (World War I style) and digging in.

For instance the Syrian civil war has dragged on for bloody 11 years....what is to stop this conflict from doing the same?

Germany's leaders are so amateurish. Foreign minister Baerbock let's slip, "We are fighting a war against Russia." On the one hand I'm glad she said it out loud. On the other hand such stupidity has brought the world to the brink. pic.twitter.com/OLsjKBiFZp

— Margaret Kimberley (@freedomrideblog) January 26, 2023

whiterock said:

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RMF5630 said:

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Harrison Bergeron said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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https://www.theamericanconservative.com/zelensky-vs-the-ukrainian-orthodox-church/
[The UOC has opposed the invasion and supported the Ukrainian cause. So why is the government calling them Russian agents?]

"On January 2, an Orthodox church in Vinnytsia, Ukraine, was covered in blood. In the morning, a man burst into the church and turned the crucifix over, broke several icons, threw banners on the floor, and finally cut the priest's throat with a razor. A few days earlier, in the city of Chornomorsk, parishioners of an Orthodox church only at the last moment disarmed a man who was about to stab the priest with a knife. In the village of Chechelnyk, a man in camouflage brutally beat a priest right on the street, breaking his nose and shouting curses.

There is a backstory to the above. Stand-up comedians at Kvartal 95, the film studio co-founded by now President Volodymyr Zelenskyy, recently released a video where they obscenely insulted Orthodox priests and publicly wished them death. The video is a news parody in the style of The Daily Show that mocks the church and refers to its clergy as "Russian agents." Many experts see a direct connection between the appeals of the actors and the recent violence..."


"If you think that the United States stood aside while this was unfolding, you are mistaken. The State Department and politicians of both parties carried out work to promote the new church. Two months before the creation of the OCU in 2018, Filaret and Epifaniy met in the United States with Joe Biden, who declared his gratitude for their work. State Department Ambassador for Religious Freedom Samuel Brownback, Secretary of State Mike Pompeo, and special representative for Ukraine Ambassador Kurt Volker declared their support for this project.

Immediately after its creation, the OCU received its first official congratulations from the State Department and the U.S. Embassy. At the same time, Ambassador Brownback and the U.S. ambassador to Greece, Geoffrey Pyattwho was also ambassador to Ukraine from 2013 to 2016visited church leaders and Mount Athos to urge them to recognize the OCU. Both Ambassador Volker and Secretary Pompeo met with Epifaniy many times. All facts indicate that the promotion of the OCU was part of U.S. policy in Ukraine."

"Zelenskyy's secret police have raided monasteries across Ukraine, and even a convent full of nuns, and arrested dozens of priests for no justifiable reasons whatsoever and in clear violation of the Ukrainian Constitution, which no longer matters. And in the face of this, the Biden's administration has said nothing. Not one word. Instead, they continue to push to send Zelenskyy more tax dollars."

---

---

So, the whole world, besides Russia and Putin's followers, turn a blind eye to this. The guy comes to Congress and not one major news outlet has pictures, a story, an interview question? Or, are they part of SPECTRE too? Is Robert Shaw training somewhere to steal the Lektor?

---

It's the UKRAINIAN Orthodox Church. Which has been a vocal opponent of Russia's war.

---

FIFY

https://www.theamericanconservative.com/this-time-its-different/

[Until it decided to confront Moscow with an existential military threat in Ukraine, Washington confined the use of American military power to conflicts that Americans could afford to lose, wars with weak opponents in the developing world from Saigon to Baghdad that did not present an existential threat to U.S. forces or American territory. This timea proxy war with Russiais different.

Contrary to early Beltway hopes and expectations, Russia neither collapsed internally nor capitulated to the collective West's demands for regime change in Moscow. Washington underestimated Russia's societal cohesion, its latent military potential, and its relative immunity to Western economic sanctions.

As a result, Washington's proxy war against Russia is failing. U.S. Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin was unusually candid about the situation in Ukraine when he told the allies in Germany at Ramstein Air Base on January 20, "We have a window of opportunity here, between now and the spring," admitting, "That's not a long time."

Alexei Arestovich, President Zelensky's recently fired advisor and unofficial "Spinmeister," was more direct. He expressed his own doubts that Ukraine can win its war with Russia and he now questions whether Ukraine will even survive the war. Ukrainian lossesat least 150,000 dead including 35,000 missing in action and presumed deadhave fatally weakened Ukrainian forces resulting in a fragile Ukrainian defensive posture that will likely shatter under the crushing weight of attacking Russian forces in the next few weeks.
Ukraine's materiel losses are equally severe.
These include thousands of tanks and armored infantry fighting vehicles, artillery systems, air defense platforms, and weapons of all calibers. These totals include the equivalent of seven years of Javelin missile production. In a setting where Russian artillery systems can fire nearly 60,000 rounds of all typesrockets, missiles, drones, and hard-shell ammunitiona day, Ukrainian forces are hard-pressed to answer these Russian salvos with 6,000 rounds daily. New platform and ammunition packages for Ukraine may enrich the Washington community, but they cannot change these conditions.

Predictably, Washington's frustration with the collective West's failure to stem the tide of Ukrainian defeat is growing. In fact, the frustration is rapidly giving way to desperation.]

https://understandingwar.org/backgrounder/russian-offensive-campaign-assessment-january-25-2023

Sam Lowry said:

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As predicted, Russia took the gloves off late last year and is now methodically destroying Ukraine. It's only a matter of time. The bad news for the ghouls in Washington, DC is that the bloodshed will eventually end.

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Not really....

Sam Lowry said:

---

As predicted, Russia took the gloves off late last year and is now methodically destroying Ukraine. It's only a matter of time. The bad news for the ghouls in Washington, DC is that the bloodshed will eventually end.

---

You really think it is a surprise if Russia ultimately beats the Ukrainians? They should have been able to end this with several Divisions months ago. The fact that we are here and Russia is trying things like Wagner, Iranian technology, and nuclear threats to subdue a much smaller, force with less advanced weapon systems is the surprise. That you have to say that Russia is taking the gloves off, they should not have to in order to get what they want. Russia has serious problems and is not the force people thought.

I find it your opinion interesting that unless you can win a surgical war with limited damage against an invader, don't try. Ukraine should just give them what they want? At what point do they try? At what point do you defend your borders?

Sam Lowry said:

---

As predicted, Russia took the gloves off late last year and is now methodically destroying Ukraine. It's only a matter of time. The bad news for the ghouls in Washington, DC is that the bloodshed will eventually end.

---

Reading the differences between the AC puff piece and the ISW assessment is, well, interesting.

Bear8084 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

---

As predicted, Russia took the gloves off late last year and is now methodically destroying Ukraine. It's only a matter of time. The bad news for the ghouls in Washington, DC is that the bloodshed will eventually end.

---

Not really....

---

They are certainly thinking about "taking off the gloves" and doing the traditional Russian scorched earth (Gen. Sherman) style of war that the Russians have always engaged in.

They attempted a quick strike at the capital at Kyiv and regime change....that failed...now they might revert to their usually style of war.

Whether this works or not it will have profound effects on the people of Ukraine.

Whatever happens Ukraine is going to be in a seriously bad position long term. Its lost at least 8 million people already who have fled outside the country...many will not ever return.

The country has a below replacement fertility rate (1.16) on par with Japan or China.

Was already poor before the war and will now only get poorer.

If the war stopped today it would still take at least $750 billion to rebuild.

The entire Ukrainian economy has contracted by 1/3rd since the war began.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022%E2%80%932023_Ukrainian_refugee_crisis

https://www.dw.com/en/how-much-could-it-cost-to-rebuild-ukraine/a-63533638

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Ukraine

RMF5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

As predicted, Russia took the gloves off late last year and is now methodically destroying Ukraine. It's only a matter of time. The bad news for the ghouls in Washington, DC is that the bloodshed will eventually end.

---

You really think it is a surprise if Russia ultimately beats the Ukrainians? They should have been able to end this with several Divisions months ago. The fact that we are here and Russia is trying things like Wagner, Iranian technology, and nuclear threats to subdue a much smaller, force with less advanced weapon systems is the surprise. That you have to say that Russia is taking the gloves off, they should not have to in order to get what they want. Russia has serious problems and is not the force people thought.

I find it your opinion interesting that unless you can win a surgical war with limited damage against an invader, don't try. Ukraine should just give them what they want? At what point do they try? At what point do you defend your borders?

---

"Taking the gloves off..." has been a RU propaganda talking piece since Feb. 24th 2022, when they actually took them off and got their best units decimated.

One of the best ways to defeat an adversary is to target their #strategy. To do that, we must understand it. Therefore, in my latest article, I explore Russian strategy, and its various components, for its continuing #Ukraine invasion in 2023. 1/25 🧵🇺🇦 https://t.co/M3x0YmtTs9

— Mick Ryan, AM (@WarintheFuture) January 25, 2023

They have already changed strategy, multiple times, even switching to heavy fires at one point.

RMF5630 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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As predicted, Russia took the gloves off late last year and is now methodically destroying Ukraine. It's only a matter of time. The bad news for the ghouls in Washington, DC is that the bloodshed will eventually end.

---

You really think it is a surprise if Russia ultimately beats the Ukrainians? They should have been able to end this with several Divisions months ago. The fact that we are here and Russia is trying things like Wagner, Iranian technology, and nuclear threats to subdue a much smaller, force with less advanced weapon systems is the surprise. That you have to say that Russia is taking the gloves off, they should not have to in order to get what they want. Russia has serious problems and is not the force people thought.

I find it your opinion interesting that unless you can win a surgical war with limited damage against an invader, don't try. Ukraine should just give them what they want? At what point do they try? At what point do you defend your borders?

---

No one denies that Russia has serious problems. Poverty, corruption, authoritarian rule.

It is of course embarrassing that they could not take Kyiv in the first few weeks/months. That would be like the US army failing to take Ottawa.

That all being said.

How much damage and suffering does the West expect Ukraine to endure? How much bloodshed, death, poverty, and long term State level damage before they agree to let Donbass and Crimea go?

Is all this damage worth it to keep some territories in Ukraine that are already populated by ethnic Russians and want out?

Bear8084 said:

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RMF5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

As predicted, Russia took the gloves off late last year and is now methodically destroying Ukraine. It's only a matter of time. The bad news for the ghouls in Washington, DC is that the bloodshed will eventually end.

---

You really think it is a surprise if Russia ultimately beats the Ukrainians? They should have been able to end this with several Divisions months ago. The fact that we are here and Russia is trying things like Wagner, Iranian technology, and nuclear threats to subdue a much smaller, force with less advanced weapon systems is the surprise. That you have to say that Russia is taking the gloves off, they should not have to in order to get what they want. Russia has serious problems and is not the force people thought.

I find it your opinion interesting that unless you can win a surgical war with limited damage against an invader, don't try. Ukraine should just give them what they want? At what point do they try? At what point do you defend your borders?

---

"Taking the gloves off..." has been a RU propaganda talking piece since Feb. 24th 2022, when they actually took them off and got their best units decimated.

---

They certainly may not be able to carry out their plans...but that does not mean their plans will not change from just "lets get to Kyiv and regime change" to "let try and just wipe out every Ukrainian village we can"

Redbrickbear said:

---

Bear8084 said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

As predicted, Russia took the gloves off late last year and is now methodically destroying Ukraine. It's only a matter of time. The bad news for the ghouls in Washington, DC is that the bloodshed will eventually end.

---

You really think it is a surprise if Russia ultimately beats the Ukrainians? They should have been able to end this with several Divisions months ago. The fact that we are here and Russia is trying things like Wagner, Iranian technology, and nuclear threats to subdue a much smaller, force with less advanced weapon systems is the surprise. That you have to say that Russia is taking the gloves off, they should not have to in order to get what they want. Russia has serious problems and is not the force people thought.

I find it your opinion interesting that unless you can win a surgical war with limited damage against an invader, don't try. Ukraine should just give them what they want? At what point do they try? At what point do you defend your borders?

---

"Taking the gloves off..." has been a RU propaganda talking piece since Feb. 24th 2022, when they actually took them off and got their best units decimated.

---

They certainly may not be able to carry out their plans...but that does not mean their plans will not change from just "lets get to Kyiv and regime change" to "let try and just wipe out every Ukrainian village we can"

---

I agree. Though that heavy fires strategy is alive and well in the east.

Bear8084 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Bear8084 said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

As predicted, Russia took the gloves off late last year and is now methodically destroying Ukraine. It's only a matter of time. The bad news for the ghouls in Washington, DC is that the bloodshed will eventually end.

---

You really think it is a surprise if Russia ultimately beats the Ukrainians? They should have been able to end this with several Divisions months ago. The fact that we are here and Russia is trying things like Wagner, Iranian technology, and nuclear threats to subdue a much smaller, force with less advanced weapon systems is the surprise. That you have to say that Russia is taking the gloves off, they should not have to in order to get what they want. Russia has serious problems and is not the force people thought.

I find it your opinion interesting that unless you can win a surgical war with limited damage against an invader, don't try. Ukraine should just give them what they want? At what point do they try? At what point do you defend your borders?

---

"Taking the gloves off..." has been a RU propaganda talking piece since Feb. 24th 2022, when they actually took them off and got their best units decimated.

---

They certainly may not be able to carry out their plans...but that does not mean their plans will not change from just "lets get to Kyiv and regime change" to "let try and just wipe out every Ukrainian village we can"

---

I agree. Though that heavy fires strategy is alive and well in the east.

---

Time for Sweden/Finland to start the NATO process again and I would not be surprised to see something blow up in the "Stans". Russia is starting to get too focused, time for a little threat from other areas to distract.

RMF5630 said:

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Bear8084 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Bear8084 said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

As predicted, Russia took the gloves off late last year and is now methodically destroying Ukraine. It's only a matter of time. The bad news for the ghouls in Washington, DC is that the bloodshed will eventually end.

---

You really think it is a surprise if Russia ultimately beats the Ukrainians? They should have been able to end this with several Divisions months ago. The fact that we are here and Russia is trying things like Wagner, Iranian technology, and nuclear threats to subdue a much smaller, force with less advanced weapon systems is the surprise. That you have to say that Russia is taking the gloves off, they should not have to in order to get what they want. Russia has serious problems and is not the force people thought.

I find it your opinion interesting that unless you can win a surgical war with limited damage against an invader, don't try. Ukraine should just give them what they want? At what point do they try? At what point do you defend your borders?

---

"Taking the gloves off..." has been a RU propaganda talking piece since Feb. 24th 2022, when they actually took them off and got their best units decimated.

---

They certainly may not be able to carry out their plans...but that does not mean their plans will not change from just "lets get to Kyiv and regime change" to "let try and just wipe out every Ukrainian village we can"

---

I agree. Though that heavy fires strategy is alive and well in the east.

---

Time for Sweden/Finland to start the NATO process again and I would not be surprised to see something blow up in the "Stans". Russia is starting to get too focused, time for a little threat from other areas to distract.

---

Process has already started. Look to Summer due to Turkey's Erdogan playing politics before their elections in June.

Bear8084 said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Bear8084 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Bear8084 said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

As predicted, Russia took the gloves off late last year and is now methodically destroying Ukraine. It's only a matter of time. The bad news for the ghouls in Washington, DC is that the bloodshed will eventually end.

---

You really think it is a surprise if Russia ultimately beats the Ukrainians? They should have been able to end this with several Divisions months ago. The fact that we are here and Russia is trying things like Wagner, Iranian technology, and nuclear threats to subdue a much smaller, force with less advanced weapon systems is the surprise. That you have to say that Russia is taking the gloves off, they should not have to in order to get what they want. Russia has serious problems and is not the force people thought.

I find it your opinion interesting that unless you can win a surgical war with limited damage against an invader, don't try. Ukraine should just give them what they want? At what point do they try? At what point do you defend your borders?

---

"Taking the gloves off..." has been a RU propaganda talking piece since Feb. 24th 2022, when they actually took them off and got their best units decimated.

---

They certainly may not be able to carry out their plans...but that does not mean their plans will not change from just "lets get to Kyiv and regime change" to "let try and just wipe out every Ukrainian village we can"

---

I agree. Though that heavy fires strategy is alive and well in the east.

---

Time for Sweden/Finland to start the NATO process again and I would not be surprised to see something blow up in the "Stans". Russia is starting to get too focused, time for a little threat from other areas to distract.

---

Process has already started. Look to Summer due to Turkey's Erdogan playing politics before their elections in June.

---

I think he has already given up opposition to them joining...


https://www.npr.org/2022/06/28/1108387096/turkey-has-dropped-its-objections-to-finland-and-sweden-joining-nato

Redbrickbear said:

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Bear8084 said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Bear8084 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Bear8084 said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

As predicted, Russia took the gloves off late last year and is now methodically destroying Ukraine. It's only a matter of time. The bad news for the ghouls in Washington, DC is that the bloodshed will eventually end.

---

You really think it is a surprise if Russia ultimately beats the Ukrainians? They should have been able to end this with several Divisions months ago. The fact that we are here and Russia is trying things like Wagner, Iranian technology, and nuclear threats to subdue a much smaller, force with less advanced weapon systems is the surprise. That you have to say that Russia is taking the gloves off, they should not have to in order to get what they want. Russia has serious problems and is not the force people thought.

I find it your opinion interesting that unless you can win a surgical war with limited damage against an invader, don't try. Ukraine should just give them what they want? At what point do they try? At what point do you defend your borders?

---

"Taking the gloves off..." has been a RU propaganda talking piece since Feb. 24th 2022, when they actually took them off and got their best units decimated.

---

They certainly may not be able to carry out their plans...but that does not mean their plans will not change from just "lets get to Kyiv and regime change" to "let try and just wipe out every Ukrainian village we can"

---

I agree. Though that heavy fires strategy is alive and well in the east.

---

Time for Sweden/Finland to start the NATO process again and I would not be surprised to see something blow up in the "Stans". Russia is starting to get too focused, time for a little threat from other areas to distract.

---

Process has already started. Look to Summer due to Turkey's Erdogan playing politics before their elections in June.

---

I think he has already given up opposition to them joining...


https://www.npr.org/2022/06/28/1108387096/turkey-has-dropped-its-objections-to-finland-and-sweden-joining-nato

---

Yes, true, but there has been feet dragging when it comes to Sweden. Current thought is he is showing he is a strong leader when it comes to NATO decisions before elections.

The Ukrainian refugees--actual refugees--expected to live amongst the English, instead they got dumped in one of the foreign colonies on British soil. https://t.co/9HPYSc4uQ5

— Carl Benjamin (@Sargon_of_Akkad) January 26, 2023

"Isn't your fear offensive?"

"I saw the police statistics"

AHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHA pic.twitter.com/AngA2DDWim

— Callum (@AkkadSecretary) January 26, 2023

RMF5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

As predicted, Russia took the gloves off late last year and is now methodically destroying Ukraine. It's only a matter of time. The bad news for the ghouls in Washington, DC is that the bloodshed will eventually end.

---

You really think it is a surprise if Russia ultimately beats the Ukrainians? They should have been able to end this with several Divisions months ago. The fact that we are here and Russia is trying things like Wagner, Iranian technology, and nuclear threats to subdue a much smaller, force with less advanced weapon systems is the surprise. That you have to say that Russia is taking the gloves off, they should not have to in order to get what they want. Russia has serious problems and is not the force people thought.

I find it your opinion interesting that unless you can win a surgical war with limited damage against an invader, don't try. Ukraine should just give them what they want? At what point do they try? At what point do you defend your borders?

---

No, I don't think it's a surprise at all. Ukraine's best chance to negotiate was shortly after pushing back the first Russian wave. They probably would have made a deal then if the US and UK hadn't scuttled it.

Sam Lowry said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

As predicted, Russia took the gloves off late last year and is now methodically destroying Ukraine. It's only a matter of time. The bad news for the ghouls in Washington, DC is that the bloodshed will eventually end.

---

You really think it is a surprise if Russia ultimately beats the Ukrainians? They should have been able to end this with several Divisions months ago. The fact that we are here and Russia is trying things like Wagner, Iranian technology, and nuclear threats to subdue a much smaller, force with less advanced weapon systems is the surprise. That you have to say that Russia is taking the gloves off, they should not have to in order to get what they want. Russia has serious problems and is not the force people thought.

I find it your opinion interesting that unless you can win a surgical war with limited damage against an invader, don't try. Ukraine should just give them what they want? At what point do they try? At what point do you defend your borders?

---

No, I don't think it's a surprise at all. Ukraine's best chance to negotiate was shortly after pushing back the first Russian wave. They probably would have made a deal then if the US and UK hadn't scuttled it.

---

That isn't based in reality and is actually RU supported propaganda. Bucha stopped the talks. The only ones blaming the West are statements released by TASS.

Bear8084 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

As predicted, Russia took the gloves off late last year and is now methodically destroying Ukraine. It's only a matter of time. The bad news for the ghouls in Washington, DC is that the bloodshed will eventually end.

---

You really think it is a surprise if Russia ultimately beats the Ukrainians? They should have been able to end this with several Divisions months ago. The fact that we are here and Russia is trying things like Wagner, Iranian technology, and nuclear threats to subdue a much smaller, force with less advanced weapon systems is the surprise. That you have to say that Russia is taking the gloves off, they should not have to in order to get what they want. Russia has serious problems and is not the force people thought.

I find it your opinion interesting that unless you can win a surgical war with limited damage against an invader, don't try. Ukraine should just give them what they want? At what point do they try? At what point do you defend your borders?

---

No, I don't think it's a surprise at all. Ukraine's best chance to negotiate was shortly after pushing back the first Russian wave. They probably would have made a deal then if the US and UK hadn't scuttled it.

---

That isn't based in reality and is actually RU supported propaganda. Bucha stopped the talks. The only ones blaming the West are statements released by TASS.

---

We have several people on here pushing Russian propaganda. There are sound arguments against escalation in Ukraine that don't require being a fomenter of Russian disinformation.

ATL Bear said:

---

Bear8084 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

As predicted, Russia took the gloves off late last year and is now methodically destroying Ukraine. It's only a matter of time. The bad news for the ghouls in Washington, DC is that the bloodshed will eventually end.

---

You really think it is a surprise if Russia ultimately beats the Ukrainians? They should have been able to end this with several Divisions months ago. The fact that we are here and Russia is trying things like Wagner, Iranian technology, and nuclear threats to subdue a much smaller, force with less advanced weapon systems is the surprise. That you have to say that Russia is taking the gloves off, they should not have to in order to get what they want. Russia has serious problems and is not the force people thought.

I find it your opinion interesting that unless you can win a surgical war with limited damage against an invader, don't try. Ukraine should just give them what they want? At what point do they try? At what point do you defend your borders?

---

No, I don't think it's a surprise at all. Ukraine's best chance to negotiate was shortly after pushing back the first Russian wave. They probably would have made a deal then if the US and UK hadn't scuttled it.

---

That isn't based in reality and is actually RU supported propaganda. Bucha stopped the talks. The only ones blaming the West are statements released by TASS.

---

We have several people on here pushing Russian propaganda. There are sound arguments against escalation in Ukraine that don't require being a fomenter of Russian disinformation.

---

Glad somebody else notices. If your arguments and points are being shared and reTweeted by RU state sponsered news and bot farms...

And I agree, there are very sound and realistic arguments being made about escalation and real red lines that don't end with "Just let Russia win!"

Bear8084 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

As predicted, Russia took the gloves off late last year and is now methodically destroying Ukraine. It's only a matter of time. The bad news for the ghouls in Washington, DC is that the bloodshed will eventually end.

---

You really think it is a surprise if Russia ultimately beats the Ukrainians? They should have been able to end this with several Divisions months ago. The fact that we are here and Russia is trying things like Wagner, Iranian technology, and nuclear threats to subdue a much smaller, force with less advanced weapon systems is the surprise. That you have to say that Russia is taking the gloves off, they should not have to in order to get what they want. Russia has serious problems and is not the force people thought.

I find it your opinion interesting that unless you can win a surgical war with limited damage against an invader, don't try. Ukraine should just give them what they want? At what point do they try? At what point do you defend your borders?

---

No, I don't think it's a surprise at all. Ukraine's best chance to negotiate was shortly after pushing back the first Russian wave. They probably would have made a deal then if the US and UK hadn't scuttled it.

---

That isn't based in reality and is actually RU supported propaganda. Bucha stopped the talks. The only ones blaming the West are statements released by TASS.

---

Actually the original source was Ukrainska Pravda. They didn't "blame" the West, but they did show that Boris Johnson had opposed negotiations and refused to sign security agreements with Russia, which were a key part of the deal. Bucha was a factor, but less directly. Zelensky's main concern with Russian atrocities was how they would affect public opinion.

ATL Bear said:

---

Bear8084 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

As predicted, Russia took the gloves off late last year and is now methodically destroying Ukraine. It's only a matter of time. The bad news for the ghouls in Washington, DC is that the bloodshed will eventually end.

---

You really think it is a surprise if Russia ultimately beats the Ukrainians? They should have been able to end this with several Divisions months ago. The fact that we are here and Russia is trying things like Wagner, Iranian technology, and nuclear threats to subdue a much smaller, force with less advanced weapon systems is the surprise. That you have to say that Russia is taking the gloves off, they should not have to in order to get what they want. Russia has serious problems and is not the force people thought.

I find it your opinion interesting that unless you can win a surgical war with limited damage against an invader, don't try. Ukraine should just give them what they want? At what point do they try? At what point do you defend your borders?

---

No, I don't think it's a surprise at all. Ukraine's best chance to negotiate was shortly after pushing back the first Russian wave. They probably would have made a deal then if the US and UK hadn't scuttled it.

---

That isn't based in reality and is actually RU supported propaganda. Bucha stopped the talks. The only ones blaming the West are statements released by TASS.

---

We have several people on here pushing Russian propaganda. There are sound arguments against escalation in Ukraine that don't require being a fomenter of Russian disinformation.

---

Anything that's not Ukrainian propaganda = Russian propaganda.