Bear8084 said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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Bear8084 said:

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whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

RMF5630 said:

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Harrison Bergeron said:

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Redbrickbear said:

---

https://www.theamericanconservative.com/zelensky-vs-the-ukrainian-orthodox-church/
[The UOC has opposed the invasion and supported the Ukrainian cause. So why is the government calling them Russian agents?]

"On January 2, an Orthodox church in Vinnytsia, Ukraine, was covered in blood. In the morning, a man burst into the church and turned the crucifix over, broke several icons, threw banners on the floor, and finally cut the priest's throat with a razor. A few days earlier, in the city of Chornomorsk, parishioners of an Orthodox church only at the last moment disarmed a man who was about to stab the priest with a knife. In the village of Chechelnyk, a man in camouflage brutally beat a priest right on the street, breaking his nose and shouting curses.

There is a backstory to the above. Stand-up comedians at Kvartal 95, the film studio co-founded by now President Volodymyr Zelenskyy, recently released a video where they obscenely insulted Orthodox priests and publicly wished them death. The video is a news parody in the style of The Daily Show that mocks the church and refers to its clergy as "Russian agents." Many experts see a direct connection between the appeals of the actors and the recent violence..."


"If you think that the United States stood aside while this was unfolding, you are mistaken. The State Department and politicians of both parties carried out work to promote the new church. Two months before the creation of the OCU in 2018, Filaret and Epifaniy met in the United States with Joe Biden, who declared his gratitude for their work. State Department Ambassador for Religious Freedom Samuel Brownback, Secretary of State Mike Pompeo, and special representative for Ukraine Ambassador Kurt Volker declared their support for this project.

Immediately after its creation, the OCU received its first official congratulations from the State Department and the U.S. Embassy. At the same time, Ambassador Brownback and the U.S. ambassador to Greece, Geoffrey Pyattwho was also ambassador to Ukraine from 2013 to 2016visited church leaders and Mount Athos to urge them to recognize the OCU. Both Ambassador Volker and Secretary Pompeo met with Epifaniy many times. All facts indicate that the promotion of the OCU was part of U.S. policy in Ukraine."

"Zelenskyy's secret police have raided monasteries across Ukraine, and even a convent full of nuns, and arrested dozens of priests for no justifiable reasons whatsoever and in clear violation of the Ukrainian Constitution, which no longer matters. And in the face of this, the Biden's administration has said nothing. Not one word. Instead, they continue to push to send Zelenskyy more tax dollars."

---

---

So, the whole world, besides Russia and Putin's followers, turn a blind eye to this. The guy comes to Congress and not one major news outlet has pictures, a story, an interview question? Or, are they part of SPECTRE too? Is Robert Shaw training somewhere to steal the Lektor?

---

It's the UKRAINIAN Orthodox Church. Which has been a vocal opponent of Russia's war.

---

FIFY

---

Now, Manichean Sam offers up outright propaganda. The Zelensky govt did not crack-down on the Ukrainian Orthodox Church. It cracked down on the parts of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church allied to the Moscow Patriarchate (Russian Orthodox Church), which are openly and secretly supportive of Russia war efforts.

No nation at war, with foreign troops encamped on their territory lobbing artillery at Ukrainian cities, could be expected to tolerate such.

https://news.yahoo.com/ukraines-authorities-explain-why-ukrainian-122510297.html

---

You're in fine form this morning. At 6:30 you admit it's a pogrom (a.k.a. "deracination"), and ten minutes later you're telling us it isn't. By noon I imagine Zelensky will have sent candy and flowers to the metropolitan.

---

It is not a deracination of religion.
It is deracination of Russian nationalism.

When Russian Nationalism invades your country and bombs your cities, it is perfectly acceptable to deracinate Russian Nationalism.

---

Especially ones that call for the end of your country and peoples in their sermons along with actively invading.

---

Can you show a single sermon where any cleric of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church-MP has ever called for the end of Ukraine or supported war?

It has consistently condemned the invasion and called for peace negotiations and an end to violence.

---

You know exactly what whiterock and I are talking about.

---

I literally have no idea what you are talking about...and I am getting the feeling you don't as well.

If you are trying to say that the actions of the Russian Orthodox Church leadership (in Russia) are the same as the the actions of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church-PM in Kyiv then you are mistaken.

They are two completely different organizations with two very different leaderships. The UOC has not done anything to encourage this war. It's only connection to Moscow is canonical.

It would be like persecuting the Catholic Church in the USA when we were at war with Italy in WWII or persecuting the Lutherans in America for the actions of the Nazi affiliated Lutheran Churches in Germany.

Redbrickbear said:

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Bear8084 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Bear8084 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

https://www.theamericanconservative.com/zelensky-vs-the-ukrainian-orthodox-church/
[The UOC has opposed the invasion and supported the Ukrainian cause. So why is the government calling them Russian agents?]

"On January 2, an Orthodox church in Vinnytsia, Ukraine, was covered in blood. In the morning, a man burst into the church and turned the crucifix over, broke several icons, threw banners on the floor, and finally cut the priest's throat with a razor. A few days earlier, in the city of Chornomorsk, parishioners of an Orthodox church only at the last moment disarmed a man who was about to stab the priest with a knife. In the village of Chechelnyk, a man in camouflage brutally beat a priest right on the street, breaking his nose and shouting curses.

There is a backstory to the above. Stand-up comedians at Kvartal 95, the film studio co-founded by now President Volodymyr Zelenskyy, recently released a video where they obscenely insulted Orthodox priests and publicly wished them death. The video is a news parody in the style of The Daily Show that mocks the church and refers to its clergy as "Russian agents." Many experts see a direct connection between the appeals of the actors and the recent violence..."


"If you think that the United States stood aside while this was unfolding, you are mistaken. The State Department and politicians of both parties carried out work to promote the new church. Two months before the creation of the OCU in 2018, Filaret and Epifaniy met in the United States with Joe Biden, who declared his gratitude for their work. State Department Ambassador for Religious Freedom Samuel Brownback, Secretary of State Mike Pompeo, and special representative for Ukraine Ambassador Kurt Volker declared their support for this project.

Immediately after its creation, the OCU received its first official congratulations from the State Department and the U.S. Embassy. At the same time, Ambassador Brownback and the U.S. ambassador to Greece, Geoffrey Pyattwho was also ambassador to Ukraine from 2013 to 2016visited church leaders and Mount Athos to urge them to recognize the OCU. Both Ambassador Volker and Secretary Pompeo met with Epifaniy many times. All facts indicate that the promotion of the OCU was part of U.S. policy in Ukraine."

"Zelenskyy's secret police have raided monasteries across Ukraine, and even a convent full of nuns, and arrested dozens of priests for no justifiable reasons whatsoever and in clear violation of the Ukrainian Constitution, which no longer matters. And in the face of this, the Biden's administration has said nothing. Not one word. Instead, they continue to push to send Zelenskyy more tax dollars."

---

---

So, the whole world, besides Russia and Putin's followers, turn a blind eye to this. The guy comes to Congress and not one major news outlet has pictures, a story, an interview question? Or, are they part of SPECTRE too? Is Robert Shaw training somewhere to steal the Lektor?

---

It's the UKRAINIAN Orthodox Church. Which has been a vocal opponent of Russia's war.

---

FIFY

---

Now, Manichean Sam offers up outright propaganda. The Zelensky govt did not crack-down on the Ukrainian Orthodox Church. It cracked down on the parts of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church allied to the Moscow Patriarchate (Russian Orthodox Church), which are openly and secretly supportive of Russia war efforts.

No nation at war, with foreign troops encamped on their territory lobbing artillery at Ukrainian cities, could be expected to tolerate such.

https://news.yahoo.com/ukraines-authorities-explain-why-ukrainian-122510297.html

---

You're in fine form this morning. At 6:30 you admit it's a pogrom (a.k.a. "deracination"), and ten minutes later you're telling us it isn't. By noon I imagine Zelensky will have sent candy and flowers to the metropolitan.

---

It is not a deracination of religion.
It is deracination of Russian nationalism.

When Russian Nationalism invades your country and bombs your cities, it is perfectly acceptable to deracinate Russian Nationalism.

---

Especially ones that call for the end of your country and peoples in their sermons along with actively invading.

---

Can you show a single sermon where any cleric of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church-MP has ever called for the end of Ukraine or supported war?

It has consistently condemned the invasion and called for peace negotiations and an end to violence.

---

You know exactly what whiterock and I are talking about.

---

I literally have no idea what you are talking about...and I am getting the feeling you don't as well.

If you are trying to say that the actions of the Russian Orthodox Church leadership (in Russia) are the same as the the actions of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church-PM in Kyiv then you are mistaken.

They are two completely different organizations with two very different leaderships. The UOC has not done anything to encourage this war. It's only connection to Moscow is canonical.

It would be like persecuting the Catholic Church in the USA when we were at war with Italy in WWII or persecuting the Lutherans in America for the actions of the Nazi affiliated Lutheran Churches in Germany.

---

He has already explained it, can't understand it for you.

Your analogies also are inaccurate.

Bear8084 said:

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Redbrickbear said:

---

Bear8084 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Bear8084 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

https://www.theamericanconservative.com/zelensky-vs-the-ukrainian-orthodox-church/
[The UOC has opposed the invasion and supported the Ukrainian cause. So why is the government calling them Russian agents?]

"On January 2, an Orthodox church in Vinnytsia, Ukraine, was covered in blood. In the morning, a man burst into the church and turned the crucifix over, broke several icons, threw banners on the floor, and finally cut the priest's throat with a razor. A few days earlier, in the city of Chornomorsk, parishioners of an Orthodox church only at the last moment disarmed a man who was about to stab the priest with a knife. In the village of Chechelnyk, a man in camouflage brutally beat a priest right on the street, breaking his nose and shouting curses.

There is a backstory to the above. Stand-up comedians at Kvartal 95, the film studio co-founded by now President Volodymyr Zelenskyy, recently released a video where they obscenely insulted Orthodox priests and publicly wished them death. The video is a news parody in the style of The Daily Show that mocks the church and refers to its clergy as "Russian agents." Many experts see a direct connection between the appeals of the actors and the recent violence..."


"If you think that the United States stood aside while this was unfolding, you are mistaken. The State Department and politicians of both parties carried out work to promote the new church. Two months before the creation of the OCU in 2018, Filaret and Epifaniy met in the United States with Joe Biden, who declared his gratitude for their work. State Department Ambassador for Religious Freedom Samuel Brownback, Secretary of State Mike Pompeo, and special representative for Ukraine Ambassador Kurt Volker declared their support for this project.

Immediately after its creation, the OCU received its first official congratulations from the State Department and the U.S. Embassy. At the same time, Ambassador Brownback and the U.S. ambassador to Greece, Geoffrey Pyattwho was also ambassador to Ukraine from 2013 to 2016visited church leaders and Mount Athos to urge them to recognize the OCU. Both Ambassador Volker and Secretary Pompeo met with Epifaniy many times. All facts indicate that the promotion of the OCU was part of U.S. policy in Ukraine."

"Zelenskyy's secret police have raided monasteries across Ukraine, and even a convent full of nuns, and arrested dozens of priests for no justifiable reasons whatsoever and in clear violation of the Ukrainian Constitution, which no longer matters. And in the face of this, the Biden's administration has said nothing. Not one word. Instead, they continue to push to send Zelenskyy more tax dollars."

---

---

So, the whole world, besides Russia and Putin's followers, turn a blind eye to this. The guy comes to Congress and not one major news outlet has pictures, a story, an interview question? Or, are they part of SPECTRE too? Is Robert Shaw training somewhere to steal the Lektor?

---

It's the UKRAINIAN Orthodox Church. Which has been a vocal opponent of Russia's war.

---

FIFY

---

Now, Manichean Sam offers up outright propaganda. The Zelensky govt did not crack-down on the Ukrainian Orthodox Church. It cracked down on the parts of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church allied to the Moscow Patriarchate (Russian Orthodox Church), which are openly and secretly supportive of Russia war efforts.

No nation at war, with foreign troops encamped on their territory lobbing artillery at Ukrainian cities, could be expected to tolerate such.

https://news.yahoo.com/ukraines-authorities-explain-why-ukrainian-122510297.html

---

You're in fine form this morning. At 6:30 you admit it's a pogrom (a.k.a. "deracination"), and ten minutes later you're telling us it isn't. By noon I imagine Zelensky will have sent candy and flowers to the metropolitan.

---

It is not a deracination of religion.
It is deracination of Russian nationalism.

When Russian Nationalism invades your country and bombs your cities, it is perfectly acceptable to deracinate Russian Nationalism.

---

Especially ones that call for the end of your country and peoples in their sermons along with actively invading.

---

Can you show a single sermon where any cleric of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church-MP has ever called for the end of Ukraine or supported war?

It has consistently condemned the invasion and called for peace negotiations and an end to violence.

---

You know exactly what whiterock and I are talking about.

---

I literally have no idea what you are talking about...and I am getting the feeling you don't as well.

If you are trying to say that the actions of the Russian Orthodox Church leadership (in Russia) are the same as the the actions of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church-PM in Kyiv then you are mistaken.

They are two completely different organizations with two very different leaderships. The UOC has not done anything to encourage this war. It's only connection to Moscow is canonical.

It would be like persecuting the Catholic Church in the USA when we were at war with Italy in WWII or persecuting the Lutherans in America for the actions of the Nazi affiliated Lutheran Churches in Germany.

---

He has already explained it, can't understand it for you.

Your analogies also are inaccurate.

---

And your continued insistence that the UOC somehow deserves to be oppressed is down right puzzling.

You either don't have any idea what going on...or you just don't care to educated yourself.

[In May, Metropolitan Onufriy, head of the UOC, declared its parishes were no longer subordinate to the ROC, though he maintained Eucharistic communion with Moscow...

Onufriy has consistently spoken out against the war, and last month he deposed three top bishops, two of whom fled to Russia. And following the raids he declared support to UOC chaplains in the Ukrainian army, while the Holy Synodspeaking from the Lavrareiterated that the church "consistently stands for the preservation of the sovereignty, independence, and territorial integrity of Ukraine."]


https://www.christianitytoday.com/news/2022/december/lavra-ukraine-orthodox-church-russia-religious-freedom-uoc.html


The Zelensky regime has no legitimate reason to persecute this group of religious believers other than spite.


"After the draft law's disclosure this month, Ukraine dismissed Elena Bogdan, state official for ethnopolitics and freedom of conscience, reportedly for her opposition to banning the UOC. She had previously confirmed Onufriy's statement that the church was no longer governed by the ROC."

A pretty obvious and gross RU troll posts random video, then blames Ukraine. News at 11.

Redbrickbear said:

---

Bear8084 said:

---

A pretty obvious and gross RU troll posts random video, then blames Ukraine. News at 11.

---

lol I hope you are getting paid by the US State Department for all your good works on this forum.

Everything that even smacks of factual reasonable debate about the war...and anything that is not 100% supportive of the Zelensky regime is declared by you to be the work of Russian trolls.

---

Maybe try reading the Tweets and reTweets....

Titus and Titus said:

---

Bear8084 said:

---

A pretty obvious and gross RU troll posts random video, then blames Ukraine. News at 11.

---

What they're doing to the church is gross.

---

Lol Ok. Might want to keep scrolling on that.

Same Tweet complaining about dancing in a random church with no context also Tweets about and celebrates Wagner PMC. I don't think they really care about what is happening to a random church.

Croatian President Zoran Milanovic stated that the United States is currently at war with Russia.

He also criticized German Foreign Minister Annalena Baerbock and the Green Party, stating that they are the most bellicose party. pic.twitter.com/Ye2BPFpaGY

— Dan Reznik (@DanReznikWSWS) January 26, 2023

Redbrickbear said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

RMF5630 said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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There’s also a real possibility that things will spiral out of control. In fact, all this pressure will likely lead to some very negative unpredictable consequences. When those emerge as an emergency, those who pushed & pushed will act surprised & pretend they’re blameless. pic.twitter.com/L4MS2D7jwk

— Max Abrahms (@MaxAbrahms) January 26, 2023

---

So, what does Max suggest?

---

Negotiations

---

Which rewards Putin for invading another Nation and disregarding past agreements. (Obama already did that once, shrugging off Russia's actions as not a core US concern. So I guess Putin is not to blame to think he could do whatever he wanted with no concern.)

---

Oh the "we never negotiate" position.

Great.

So this ends how? Nuclear war in Eastern Europe?

---

So, how do you negotiate with a person like Putin that rolls tanks first and negotiates second? Let's hear it, what leverage are you going to bring? Negotiations are basically:

Putin wants to keep Crimea (2014), plus add Donbas for now or we continue to destroy Ukraine and if I feel threatened enough I toss a nuke.

What is your great "negotiation" response? Sanctions? What do you say? Let's hear how this gets negotiated out to just Ukraine losing Crimea! Or, do we through in the Baltics to show good faith? I really want to hear your secret negotiating position that is going to get Putin to roll his tanks back into Russia.

Titus and Titus said:

---

Putin and Russia have been trying to negotiate since 2014. Have you ever heard of the Minsk agreements after the maiden? Is all you know about The Ukraine from the last year?

---

Lol The Minsk agreements. Nato is corrupt.

https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2022/12/22/ffci-d22.html

Redbrickbear said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

There’s also a real possibility that things will spiral out of control. In fact, all this pressure will likely lead to some very negative unpredictable consequences. When those emerge as an emergency, those who pushed & pushed will act surprised & pretend they’re blameless. pic.twitter.com/L4MS2D7jwk

— Max Abrahms (@MaxAbrahms) January 26, 2023

---

So, what does Max suggest?

---

Negotiations

---

Which rewards Putin for invading another Nation and disregarding past agreements. (Obama already did that once, shrugging off Russia's actions as not a core US concern. So I guess Putin is not to blame to think he could do whatever he wanted with no concern.)

---

Oh the "we never negotiate" position.

Great.

So this ends how? Nuclear war in Eastern Europe?

---

Not what he said, actually.

RMF is right that if Zelensky enters negotiations in apparent response to Russian aggression, then the oligarchs will conclude that Putin's aggression is the correct policy, and we will see this kind of thing again on another front.

The key comes back to what reasonable goal can we hope to accomplish, and then work for that.

I'd like Russia to pull back to pre-2014 borders, pay for the damages and deaths and replace Putin with a Russian version of Fred Rogers, but I know that ain't happening.

So I would settle for a Russian pullback to some extent, negotiations that recognize Ukraine while allowing Putin some token victory, with the violence abated first by ceasefire then by armistice.

But there are many who would oppose that outcome, too.

MoonshineJones17 said:

---

Titus and Titus said:

---

Putin and Russia have been trying to negotiate since 2014. Have you ever heard of the Minsk agreements after the maiden? Is all you know about The Ukraine from the last year?

---

Lol The Minsk agreements. Nato is so corrupt it's ridiculous it's still around.

https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2022/12/22/ffci-d22.html

---

Well if the Trotskyists no longer support Ukraine, then there is no hope I guess.

Titus and Titus said:

---

Putin and Russia have been trying to negotiate since 2014. Have you ever heard of the Minsk agreements after the maiden? Is all you know about The Ukraine from the last year?

---

Those agreements were as effective as the Budapest Memorandum. They were fighting within 2 weeks. Also, didn't the President from Ukraine that took part charged with treason and set up some company in the Caribbean while negotiating them? I don't know alot about him.

So the answer is going back to a failed agreement? Basically, Putin gets Crimea and now Donbas like he wants. There were reasons that agreement didn't work, but I guess now it is ok and will stand?

The Ukrainians I know support Zelensky. One just got her Grandmother out 4 months ago. They had to tell the 75 years old not to get on the Russian buses at one point. So, my perspective is not favorable to Putin.

RMF5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

There’s also a real possibility that things will spiral out of control. In fact, all this pressure will likely lead to some very negative unpredictable consequences. When those emerge as an emergency, those who pushed & pushed will act surprised & pretend they’re blameless. pic.twitter.com/L4MS2D7jwk

— Max Abrahms (@MaxAbrahms) January 26, 2023

---

So, what does Max suggest?

---

Negotiations

---

Which rewards Putin for invading another Nation and disregarding past agreements. (Obama already did that once, shrugging off Russia's actions as not a core US concern. So I guess Putin is not to blame to think he could do whatever he wanted with no concern.)

---

Oh the "we never negotiate" position.

Great.

So this ends how? Nuclear war in Eastern Europe?

---

So, how do you negotiate with a person like Putin that rolls tanks first and negotiates second? Let's hear it, what leverage are you going to bring? Negotiations are basically:

Putin wants to keep Crimea (2014), plus add Donbas for now or we continue to destroy Ukraine and if I feel threatened enough I toss a nuke.

What is your great "negotiation" response? Sanctions? What do you say? Let's hear how this gets negotiated out to just Ukraine losing Crimea! Or, do we through in the Baltics to show good faith? I really want to hear your secret negotiating position that is going to get Putin to roll his tanks back into Russia.

---

1. General ceasefire across all the front lines. General agreement for both parties to freeze in position. No more killing.

2. Areas currently under Russian control can join the Russian Federation...So most of Donbass, some of Kherson, and Crimea. About 16% of the area of Ukraine. And mostly overwhelmingly ethnic Russian areas.

3. Russia pays Ukraine war repatriations.

4. Russia agrees to give up any objections, now or in the future, to Ukraine joining the EU and later at some point joining NATO.


So Ukraine gets money, security assurances, and the path to European economic integration and Western (NATO) security membership.

And Russia gets Crimea and some ethnic russian inhabited lands in the east it can claim as a great prize.

Its a decent agreement.

If not the West threatens to increase military assistance exponentially to Ukraine... all the way to ground troops doing actual front line fighting. (Which is were we are headed anyway)

That is reasonable and a lot more threat there than just economic sanctions.

Titus and Titus said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Titus and Titus said:

---

Putin and Russia have been trying to negotiate since 2014. Have you ever heard of the Minsk agreements after the maiden? Is all you know about The Ukraine from the last year?

---

Those agreements were as effective as the Budapest Memorandum. They were fighting within 2 weeks. Also, didn't the President from Ukraine that took part charged with treason and set up some company in the Caribbean while negotiating them? I don't know alot about him.

So the answer is going back to a failed agreement? Basically, Putin gets Crimea and now Donbas like he wants. There were reasons that agreement didn't work, but I guess now it is ok and will stand?

The Ukrainians I know support Zelensky. One just got her Grandmother out 4 months ago. They had to tell the 75 years old not to get on the Russian buses at one point. So, my perspective is not favorable to Putin.

---

Crimea, Luhansk, and Donetsk have all voted to join Russia.
We must protect Democracy.

---

Too many election deniers and conspiracy theorists in the west.

Titus and Titus said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Titus and Titus said:

---

Putin and Russia have been trying to negotiate since 2014. Have you ever heard of the Minsk agreements after the maiden? Is all you know about The Ukraine from the last year?

---

Those agreements were as effective as the Budapest Memorandum. They were fighting within 2 weeks. Also, didn't the President from Ukraine that took part charged with treason and set up some company in the Caribbean while negotiating them? I don't know alot about him.

So the answer is going back to a failed agreement? Basically, Putin gets Crimea and now Donbas like he wants. There were reasons that agreement didn't work, but I guess now it is ok and will stand?

The Ukrainians I know support Zelensky. One just got her Grandmother out 4 months ago. They had to tell the 75 years old not to get on the Russian buses at one point. So, my perspective is not favorable to Putin.

---

Crimea, Luhansk, and Donetsk have all voted to join Russia.
We must protect Democracy.

---

That is the problem. Putin has played too many election games in the past, it is part of Russian dogma, that no one believes him when it goes in his favor. Ask Whiterock. They send Sperznaz in early to create these situations. Real hard to give Putin benefit of doubt. Good article, but it is American written not sure you will believe. This distrust is the issue Putin has too many strikes.

https://www.csis.org/blogs/strategic-technologies-blog/russia-ramps-global-elections-interference-lessons-united-states

Redbrickbear said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

There’s also a real possibility that things will spiral out of control. In fact, all this pressure will likely lead to some very negative unpredictable consequences. When those emerge as an emergency, those who pushed & pushed will act surprised & pretend they’re blameless. pic.twitter.com/L4MS2D7jwk

— Max Abrahms (@MaxAbrahms) January 26, 2023

---

So, what does Max suggest?

---

Negotiations

---

Which rewards Putin for invading another Nation and disregarding past agreements. (Obama already did that once, shrugging off Russia's actions as not a core US concern. So I guess Putin is not to blame to think he could do whatever he wanted with no concern.)

---

Oh the "we never negotiate" position.

Great.

So this ends how? Nuclear war in Eastern Europe?

---

So, how do you negotiate with a person like Putin that rolls tanks first and negotiates second? Let's hear it, what leverage are you going to bring? Negotiations are basically:

Putin wants to keep Crimea (2014), plus add Donbas for now or we continue to destroy Ukraine and if I feel threatened enough I toss a nuke.

What is your great "negotiation" response? Sanctions? What do you say? Let's hear how this gets negotiated out to just Ukraine losing Crimea! Or, do we through in the Baltics to show good faith? I really want to hear your secret negotiating position that is going to get Putin to roll his tanks back into Russia.

---

1. General ceasefire across all the front lines. General agreement for both parties to freeze in position. No more killing.

2. Areas currently under Russian control can join the Russian Federation...So most of Donbass, some of Kherson, and Crimea. About 16% of the area of Ukraine. And mostly overwhelmingly ethnic Russian areas.

3. Russia pays Ukraine war repatriations.

4. Russia agrees to give up any objections, now or in the future, to Ukraine joining the EU and later at some point joining NATO.


So Ukraine gets money, security assurances, and the path to European economic integration and Western (NATO) security membership.

And Russia gets Crimea and some ethnic russian inhabited lands in the east it can claim as a great prize.

Its a decent agreement.

If not the West threatens to increase military assistance exponentially to Ukraine... all the way to ground troops doing actual front line fighting. (Which is were we are headed anyway)

That is reasonable and a lot more threat there than just economic sanctions.

---

How about Russia pulls back to 2012 lines and call the UN in to craft a solution.

RMF5630 said:

---

Titus and Titus said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Titus and Titus said:

---

Putin and Russia have been trying to negotiate since 2014. Have you ever heard of the Minsk agreements after the maiden? Is all you know about The Ukraine from the last year?

---

Those agreements were as effective as the Budapest Memorandum. They were fighting within 2 weeks. Also, didn't the President from Ukraine that took part charged with treason and set up some company in the Caribbean while negotiating them? I don't know alot about him.

So the answer is going back to a failed agreement? Basically, Putin gets Crimea and now Donbas like he wants. There were reasons that agreement didn't work, but I guess now it is ok and will stand?

The Ukrainians I know support Zelensky. One just got her Grandmother out 4 months ago. They had to tell the 75 years old not to get on the Russian buses at one point. So, my perspective is not favorable to Putin.

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Crimea, Luhansk, and Donetsk have all voted to join Russia.
We must protect Democracy.

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That is the problem. Putin has played too many election games in the past, it is part of Russian dogma, that no one believes him when it goes in his favor. Ask Whiterock. They send Sperznaz in early to create these situations. Real hard to give Putin benefit of doubt. Good article, but it is American written not sure you will believe. This distrust is the issue Putin has too many strikes.

https://www.csis.org/blogs/strategic-technologies-blog/russia-ramps-global-elections-interference-lessons-united-states

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https://www.cato.org/commentary/americas-ukraine-hypocrisy

RMF5630 said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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RMF5630 said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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RMF5630 said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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RMF5630 said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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There’s also a real possibility that things will spiral out of control. In fact, all this pressure will likely lead to some very negative unpredictable consequences. When those emerge as an emergency, those who pushed & pushed will act surprised & pretend they’re blameless. pic.twitter.com/L4MS2D7jwk

— Max Abrahms (@MaxAbrahms) January 26, 2023

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So, what does Max suggest?

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Negotiations

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Which rewards Putin for invading another Nation and disregarding past agreements. (Obama already did that once, shrugging off Russia's actions as not a core US concern. So I guess Putin is not to blame to think he could do whatever he wanted with no concern.)

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Oh the "we never negotiate" position.

Great.

So this ends how? Nuclear war in Eastern Europe?

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So, how do you negotiate with a person like Putin that rolls tanks first and negotiates second? Let's hear it, what leverage are you going to bring? Negotiations are basically:

Putin wants to keep Crimea (2014), plus add Donbas for now or we continue to destroy Ukraine and if I feel threatened enough I toss a nuke.

What is your great "negotiation" response? Sanctions? What do you say? Let's hear how this gets negotiated out to just Ukraine losing Crimea! Or, do we through in the Baltics to show good faith? I really want to hear your secret negotiating position that is going to get Putin to roll his tanks back into Russia.

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1. General ceasefire across all the front lines. General agreement for both parties to freeze in position. No more killing.

2. Areas currently under Russian control can join the Russian Federation...So most of Donbass, some of Kherson, and Crimea. About 16% of the area of Ukraine. And mostly overwhelmingly ethnic Russian areas.

3. Russia pays Ukraine war repatriations.

4. Russia agrees to give up any objections, now or in the future, to Ukraine joining the EU and later at some point joining NATO.


So Ukraine gets money, security assurances, and the path to European economic integration and Western (NATO) security membership.

And Russia gets Crimea and some ethnic russian inhabited lands in the east it can claim as a great prize.

Its a decent agreement.

If not the West threatens to increase military assistance exponentially to Ukraine... all the way to ground troops doing actual front line fighting. (Which is were we are headed anyway)

That is reasonable and a lot more threat there than just economic sanctions.

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How about Russia pulls back to 2012 lines and call the UN in to craft a solution.

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I am fine with whatever path leads to de-escalation and peace.

Does a return to 2012 borders seam reasonable at this point?

Redbrickbear said:

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RMF5630 said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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RMF5630 said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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RMF5630 said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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RMF5630 said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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There’s also a real possibility that things will spiral out of control. In fact, all this pressure will likely lead to some very negative unpredictable consequences. When those emerge as an emergency, those who pushed & pushed will act surprised & pretend they’re blameless. pic.twitter.com/L4MS2D7jwk

— Max Abrahms (@MaxAbrahms) January 26, 2023

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So, what does Max suggest?

---

Negotiations

---

Which rewards Putin for invading another Nation and disregarding past agreements. (Obama already did that once, shrugging off Russia's actions as not a core US concern. So I guess Putin is not to blame to think he could do whatever he wanted with no concern.)

---

Oh the "we never negotiate" position.

Great.

So this ends how? Nuclear war in Eastern Europe?

---

So, how do you negotiate with a person like Putin that rolls tanks first and negotiates second? Let's hear it, what leverage are you going to bring? Negotiations are basically:

Putin wants to keep Crimea (2014), plus add Donbas for now or we continue to destroy Ukraine and if I feel threatened enough I toss a nuke.

What is your great "negotiation" response? Sanctions? What do you say? Let's hear how this gets negotiated out to just Ukraine losing Crimea! Or, do we through in the Baltics to show good faith? I really want to hear your secret negotiating position that is going to get Putin to roll his tanks back into Russia.

---

1. General ceasefire across all the front lines. General agreement for both parties to freeze in position. No more killing.

2. Areas currently under Russian control can join the Russian Federation...So most of Donbass, some of Kherson, and Crimea. About 16% of the area of Ukraine. And mostly overwhelmingly ethnic Russian areas.

3. Russia pays Ukraine war repatriations.

4. Russia agrees to give up any objections, now or in the future, to Ukraine joining the EU and later at some point joining NATO.


So Ukraine gets money, security assurances, and the path to European economic integration and Western (NATO) security membership.

And Russia gets Crimea and some ethnic russian inhabited lands in the east it can claim as a great prize.

Its a decent agreement.

If not the West threatens to increase military assistance exponentially to Ukraine... all the way to ground troops doing actual front line fighting. (Which is were we are headed anyway)

That is reasonable and a lot more threat there than just economic sanctions.

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How about Russia pulls back to 2012 lines and call the UN in to craft a solution.

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I am fine with whatever path leads to de-escalation and peace.

Does a return to 2012 borders seam reasonable at this point?

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Would be nice. Tell me how you get Putin to say 'da'.

Titus and Titus said:

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Putin and Russia have been trying to negotiate since 2014. Have you ever heard of the Minsk agreements after the maiden? Is all you know about The Ukraine from the last year?

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What about 2004?

Ukraine and Syria have been the 2 most aggressive Russian foreign operation targets since 2000.

ATL Bear said:

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Ukraine and Syria have been the 2 most aggressive Russian foreign operation targets since 2000.

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You could also rephrase that and say "Ukraine and Syria have been the most aggressive American foreign operation targets since 2010"

Redbrickbear said:

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ATL Bear said:

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Ukraine and Syria have been the 2 most aggressive Russian foreign operation targets since 2000.

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You could also rephrase that and say "Ukraine and Syria have been the most aggressive American foreign operation targets since 2010"

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No you really couldn't.

ATL Bear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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ATL Bear said:

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Ukraine and Syria have been the 2 most aggressive Russian foreign operation targets since 2000.

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You could also rephrase that and say "Ukraine and Syria have been the most aggressive American foreign operation targets since 2010"

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No you really couldn't.

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Oh because we were still focused on wars we started in Afghanistan and Iraq…yes true.

So what year exactly did the US ruling class turn its attention to fueling the Syrian civil war and Ukraine crisis?

Redbrickbear said:

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RMF5630 said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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RMF5630 said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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There’s also a real possibility that things will spiral out of control. In fact, all this pressure will likely lead to some very negative unpredictable consequences. When those emerge as an emergency, those who pushed & pushed will act surprised & pretend they’re blameless. pic.twitter.com/L4MS2D7jwk

— Max Abrahms (@MaxAbrahms) January 26, 2023

---

So, what does Max suggest?

---

Negotiations

---

Which rewards Putin for invading another Nation and disregarding past agreements. (Obama already did that once, shrugging off Russia's actions as not a core US concern. So I guess Putin is not to blame to think he could do whatever he wanted with no concern.)

---

Oh the "we never negotiate" position.

Great.

So this ends how? Nuclear war in Eastern Europe?

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of course not. It'd make as much sense as the owner of a townhouse burning down the adjacent unit because he couldn't buy it. "We never negotiate" is what you say until you decide it's in your interest to negotiate. EVERYBODY negotiates when conditions dictate.

this one ends when Russia bleeds out the materiel needed to continue the offensive, or whenever Putin decides to cut his losses.

Frankly, we don't want it to end too soon. Russia will never give up the idea of reuniting the USSR. Russia has never been "safer" than during the USSR. It controlled directly or via vassals all 9 historic invasion routes. Russia has always wanted Ukraine, will always want Ukraine.... no matter what are the terms of the peace agreement that ends the current (and any future) war. So our job is to make sure the war ends with Russia so weak that it is logistically incapable of mounting a serious war effort for 20-30 years or more, depleted of materiel, without the industrial and technological capability of rebuilding a major army, so internally weak from dissent that it must focus all its energies on retaining the Russian Federation as it currently stands. And that will not be easy for Russia to accomplish. It is not a historically monolithic entity....

Russia has a say in this. Russia could fold its tent right now and preserve the remaining army it has. Live to fight again, to come back in 5 more years and try to carve off another piece of Ukraine. Transnistria is a potential flashpoint that could take down Moldavia. But Putin has his neck on the line, so his interests are not exactly the same as Russia's interests.

The great game in the shatterzones between German and Russia will never end. So when one side makes an enormous mistake, you make. them. pay. dearly. Russia has waded off into a sludge pit much deeper than it expected. We will poke him on the forehead with a pole to keep him floundering out in the middle until he gets tired of floundering. How tired he gets before it reaches that point is up to him.

whiterock said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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RMF5630 said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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RMF5630 said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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There’s also a real possibility that things will spiral out of control. In fact, all this pressure will likely lead to some very negative unpredictable consequences. When those emerge as an emergency, those who pushed & pushed will act surprised & pretend they’re blameless. pic.twitter.com/L4MS2D7jwk

— Max Abrahms (@MaxAbrahms) January 26, 2023

---

So, what does Max suggest?

---

Negotiations

---

Which rewards Putin for invading another Nation and disregarding past agreements. (Obama already did that once, shrugging off Russia's actions as not a core US concern. So I guess Putin is not to blame to think he could do whatever he wanted with no concern.)

---

Oh the "we never negotiate" position.

Great.

So this ends how? Nuclear war in Eastern Europe?

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Frankly, we don't want it to end too soon.

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This is evil.

Redbrickbear said:

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ATL Bear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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ATL Bear said:

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Ukraine and Syria have been the 2 most aggressive Russian foreign operation targets since 2000.

---

You could also rephrase that and say "Ukraine and Syria have been the most aggressive American foreign operation targets since 2010"

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No you really couldn't.

---

Oh because we were still focused on wars we started in Afghanistan and Iraq…yes true.

So what year exactly did the US ruling class turn its attention to fueling the Syrian civil war and Ukraine crisis?

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Everyone got enamored with the Arab Spring due to the false belief the Islamic world is interested in freedom and democracy. Trump pulled us out of Syria specifically, and it was a sound decision.

Putin pulled us into Ukraine by invading. Thought that was pretty obvious.

ATL Bear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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ATL Bear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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ATL Bear said:

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Ukraine and Syria have been the 2 most aggressive Russian foreign operation targets since 2000.

---

You could also rephrase that and say "Ukraine and Syria have been the most aggressive American foreign operation targets since 2010"

---

No you really couldn't.

---

Oh because we were still focused on wars we started in Afghanistan and Iraq…yes true.

So what year exactly did the US ruling class turn its attention to fueling the Syrian civil war and Ukraine crisis?

---

Everyone got enamored with the Arab Spring due to the false belief the Islamic world is interested in freedom and democracy. Trump pulled us out of Syria specifically, and it was a sound decision.

Putin pulled us into Ukraine by invading. Thought that was pretty obvious.

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We have been interfering in Ukraine since Obama took office.

Redbrickbear said:

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ATL Bear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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ATL Bear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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ATL Bear said:

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Ukraine and Syria have been the 2 most aggressive Russian foreign operation targets since 2000.

---

You could also rephrase that and say "Ukraine and Syria have been the most aggressive American foreign operation targets since 2010"

---

No you really couldn't.

---

Oh because we were still focused on wars we started in Afghanistan and Iraq…yes true.

So what year exactly did the US ruling class turn its attention to fueling the Syrian civil war and Ukraine crisis?

---

Everyone got enamored with the Arab Spring due to the false belief the Islamic world is interested in freedom and democracy. Trump pulled us out of Syria specifically, and it was a sound decision.

Putin pulled us into Ukraine by invading. Thought that was pretty obvious.

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We have been interfering in Ukraine since Obama took office.

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Russia has been interfering in Ukraine since Boris Yeltsin was their leader.