Russia mobilizes

261,770 Views | 4259 Replies | Last: 1 yr ago by sombear
Redbrickbear
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HuMcK said:

I think you mistake cooperation for capitulation. We largely did try cooperation, we let them have the pieces of Ukraine they took in 2014 and left their energy industry alone. We flat out ignored Chechnya and Georgia getting swallowed up, not to mention brazen assassinations across western Europe. Three successive Presidents tried to reach out and work with Putin. Our next SecState after 2014 was an Exxon exec who had a Russian medal of friendship pinned on his chest by Putin himself. Of course Russia worked hard to help that SecState's boss get elected, so maybe that (and pretty much ignoring what they did in 2016) was just reciprocity.

What you want is for us (and Ukraine, then whoever else) to just lie down and take it, which frankly is incomprehensible to me. If their strategy works for them, why would they stop using it?


How could Russia "swallow up" Chechnya when it's always legally been apart of the Russian Federation.

Are you under the impression that Chechnya was an independent nation?
Redbrickbear
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whiterock
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Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Everyone else isn't responsible. It's the US that's responsible for actively goading them to fight.
It's almost like history of American inspired aggression started in 1776, before which time there was nothing but sweetness and lightness between Russians and Sami, Swedes, Finns, Balts, Poles, Slovaks, Hungarians, Romanians, Moldovans, Bulgarians, Ottomans, Georgians, Armenians, Kipchaks, Pechenegs, Cossacks, Tatars, Chechens Ukrainians, Belorussians, Khazars, Mongols, Iranians, Arabs, Khazaks, a half-dozen lesser Turkic tribes, %A0etc....... %A0(just going around the clock from memory....might have missed a few). %A0 %A0

Just curious. %A0 Did we "goad" the Earl of Cardigan to charge those guns at Balaclava? %A0Did we "goad" those Polish officers to their death in the Katyn Forest? %A0Did we.....(need I go on here?)



No, we didn't. And more importantly, we didn't have the arrogance to look at that history and think we could change it. Somehow we managed to build a great America anyway.
Aw, Sam. Our Founders did exactly that - they looked at history and changed it, offering an entirely new form of social contract that has inspired nations for centuries.

whiterock
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Redbrickbear said:

University of Chicago professor John Mearsheimer believes that Ukraine has no other choice but to become a neutral state.

"I believe that the only way out of this conflict and the only way to create any semblance of stability in Europe is to turn Ukraine into a neutral state, to abandon the desire to become a Western stronghold on Russia's borders. The Russians will not settle for less. Therefore, if we want to end this conflict, we must move towards a neutral Ukraine."
That is an entirely reasonable centrist position that would lead to a lasting peace.

All that is required to achieve such is to restore Ukrainian control over the entirety of internationally recognized Ukrainian borders, meaning Russian troops leave the Donbas and Crimea. That might be possible by the end of the year.

If Russia does not find that outcome acceptable - a fully intact neutral Ukrainian state - then they should sue for peace now.

Sam Lowry
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whiterock said:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Everyone else isn't responsible. It's the US that's responsible for actively goading them to fight.
It's almost like history of American inspired aggression started in 1776, before which time there was nothing but sweetness and lightness between Russians and Sami, Swedes, Finns, Balts, Poles, Slovaks, Hungarians, Romanians, Moldovans, Bulgarians, Ottomans, Georgians, Armenians, Kipchaks, Pechenegs, Cossacks, Tatars, Chechens Ukrainians, Belorussians, Khazars, Mongols, Iranians, Arabs, Khazaks, a half-dozen lesser Turkic tribes, %A0etc....... %A0(just going around the clock from memory....might have missed a few). %A0 %A0

Just curious. %A0 Did we "goad" the Earl of Cardigan to charge those guns at Balaclava? %A0Did we "goad" those Polish officers to their death in the Katyn Forest? %A0Did we.....(need I go on here?)



No, we didn't. And more importantly, we didn't have the arrogance to look at that history and think we could change it. Somehow we managed to build a great America anyway.
Aw, Sam. Our Founders did exactly that - they looked at history and changed it, offering an entirely new form of social contract that has inspired nations for centuries.


Observe good faith and justice toward all nations. Cultivate peace and harmony with all. Religion and morality enjoin this conduct. And can it be that good policy does not equally enjoin it? It will be worthy of a free, enlightened, and at no distant period a great nation to give to mankind the magnanimous and too novel example of a people always guided by an exalted justice and benevolence. Who can doubt that in the course of time and things the fruits of such a plan would richly repay any temporary advantages which might be lost by a steady adherence to it? Can it be that Providence has not connected the permanent felicity of a nation with its virtue? The experiment, at least, is recommended by every sentiment which ennobles human nature. Alas! is it rendered impossible by its vices?

In the execution of such a plan nothing is more essential than that permanent, inveterate antipathies against particular nations and passionate attachments for others should be excluded, and that in place of them just and amicable feelings toward all should be cultivated. The nation which indulges toward another an habitual hatred or an habitual fondness is in some degree a slave. It is a slave to its animosity or to its affection, either of which is sufficient to lead it astray from its duty and its interest. Antipathy in one nation against another disposes each more readily to offer insult and injury, to lay hold of slight causes of umbrage, and to be haughty and intractable when accidental or trifling occasions of dispute occur.

Hence frequent collisions, obstinate, envenomed, and bloody contests. The nation prompted by ill will and resentment sometimes impels to war the government contrary to the best calculations of policy. The government sometimes participates in the national propensity, and adopts through passion what reason would reject. At other times it makes the animosity of the nation subservient to projects of hostility, instigated by pride, ambition, and other sinister and pernicious motives. The peace often, sometimes perhaps the liberty, of nations has been the victim.

So, likewise, a passionate attachment of one nation for another produces a variety of evils. Sympathy for the favorite nation, facilitating the illusion of an imaginary common interest in cases where no real common interest exists, and infusing into one the enmities of the other, betrays the former into a participation in the quarrels and wars of the latter without adequate inducement or justification. It leads also to concessions to the favorite nation of privileges denied to others, which is apt doubly to injure the nation making the concessions by unnecessarily parting with what ought to have been retained, and by exciting jealousy, ill will, and a disposition to retaliate in the parties from whom equal privileges are withheld; and it gives to ambitious, corrupted, or deluded citizens (who devote themselves to the favorite nation) facility to betray or sacrifice the interests of their own country without odium, sometimes even with popularity, gilding with the appearances of a virtuous sense of obligation, a commendable deference for public opinion, or a laudable zeal for public good the base or foolish compliances of ambition, corruption, or infatuation.

As avenues to foreign influence in innumerable ways, such attachments are particularly alarming to the truly enlightened and independent patriot. How many opportunities do they afford to tamper with domestic factions, to practice the arts of seduction, to mislead public opinion, to influence or awe the public councils! Such an attachment of a small or weak toward a great and powerful nation dooms the former to be the satellite of the latter. Against the insidious wiles of foreign influence (I conjure you to believe me, fellow-citizens) the jealousy of a free people ought to be constantly awake, since history and experience prove that foreign influence is one of the most baneful foes of republican government. But that jealousy, to be useful, must be impartial, else it becomes the instrument of the very influence to be avoided, instead of a defense against it. Excessive partiality for one foreign nation and excessive dislike of another cause those whom they actuate to see danger only on one side, and serve to veil and even second the arts of influence on the other. Real patriots who may resist the intrigues of the favorite are liable to become suspected and odious, while its tools and dupes usurp the applause and confidence of the people to surrender their interests.

The great rule of conduct for us in regard to foreign nations is, in extending our commercial relations to have with them as little political connection as possible. So far as we have already formed engagements let them be fulfilled with perfect good faith. Here let us stop.

Europe has a set of primary interests which to us have none or a very remote relation. Hence she must be engaged in frequent controversies, the causes of which are essentially foreign to our concerns. Hence, therefore, it must be unwise in us to implicate ourselves by artificial ties in the ordinary vicissitudes of her politics or the ordinary combinations and collisions of her friendships or enmities.

Our detached and distant situation invites and enables us to pursue a different course. If we remain one people, under an efficient government, the period is not far off when we may defy material injury from external annoyance; when we may take such an attitude as will cause the neutrality we may at any time resolve upon to be scrupulously respected; when belligerent nations, under the impossibility of making acquisitions upon us, will not lightly hazard the giving us provocation; when we may choose peace or war, as our interest, guided by justice, shall counsel.

Why forego the advantages of so peculiar a situation? Why quit our own to stand upon foreign ground? Why, by interweaving our destiny with that of any part of Europe, entangle our peace and prosperity in the toils of European ambition, rivalship, interest, humor, or caprice?

It is our true policy to steer clear of permanent alliances with any portion of the foreign world, so far, I mean, as we are now at liberty to do it; for let me not be understood as capable of patronizing infidelity to existing engagements. I hold the maxim no less applicable to public than to private affairs that honesty is always the best policy. I repeat, therefore, let those engagements be observed in their genuine sense. But in my opinion it is unnecessary and would be unwise to extend them.

Taking care always to keep ourselves by suitable establishments on a respectable defensive posture, we may safely trust to temporary alliances for extraordinary emergencies.

Harmony, liberal intercourse with all nations are recommended by policy, humanity, and interest. But even our commercial policy should hold an equal and impartial hand, neither seeking nor granting exclusive favors or preferences; consulting the natural course of things; diffusing and diversifying by gentle means the streams of commerce, but forcing nothing; establishing with powers so disposed, in order to give trade a stable course, to define the rights of our merchants, and to enable the Government to support them, conventional rules of intercourse, the best that present circumstances and mutual opinion will permit, but temporary and liable to be from time to time abandoned or varied as experience and circumstances shall dictate; constantly keeping in view that it is folly in one nation to look for disinterested favors from another; that it must pay with a portion of its independence for whatever it may accept under that character; that by such acceptance it may place itself in the condition of having given equivalents for nominal favors, and yet of being reproached with ingratitude for not giving more. There can be no greater error than to expect or calculate upon real favors from nation to nation. It is an illusion which experience must cure, which a just pride ought to discard.

George Washington
Redbrickbear
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Redbrickbear
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FLBear5630
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Redbrickbear said:

HuMcK said:

I think you mistake cooperation for capitulation. We largely did try cooperation, we let them have the pieces of Ukraine they took in 2014 and left their energy industry alone. We flat out ignored Chechnya and Georgia getting swallowed up, not to mention brazen assassinations across western Europe. Three successive Presidents tried to reach out and work with Putin. Our next SecState after 2014 was an Exxon exec who had a Russian medal of friendship pinned on his chest by Putin himself. Of course Russia worked hard to help that SecState's boss get elected, so maybe that (and pretty much ignoring what they did in 2016) was just reciprocity.

What you want is for us (and Ukraine, then whoever else) to just lie down and take it, which frankly is incomprehensible to me. If their strategy works for them, why would they stop using it?


How could Russia "swallow up" Chechnya when it's always legally been apart of the Russian Federation.

Are you under the impression that Chechnya was an independent nation?


"n 9 April 1991, shortly before the collapse of the Soviet Union, the Supreme Council of Georgia declared independence after a referendum held on 31 March. Georgia was the first non-Baltic republic of the Soviet Union to officially declare independence."

You continually act like 1991 never happened, let alone1921 when the Soviets took over! The Putin apologist keep bringing up 1880's and earlier when in the 1990s Georgia was independent. Russia was wrong in Georgia and Chechnya just like in Ukraine now. Using you logic, we should be a British Colony!
whiterock
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Sam Lowry said:

whiterock said:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Everyone else isn't responsible. It's the US that's responsible for actively goading them to fight.
It's almost like history of American inspired aggression started in 1776, before which time there was nothing but sweetness and lightness between Russians and Sami, Swedes, Finns, Balts, Poles, Slovaks, Hungarians, Romanians, Moldovans, Bulgarians, Ottomans, Georgians, Armenians, Kipchaks, Pechenegs, Cossacks, Tatars, Chechens Ukrainians, Belorussians, Khazars, Mongols, Iranians, Arabs, Khazaks, a half-dozen lesser Turkic tribes, %A0etc....... %A0(just going around the clock from memory....might have missed a few). %A0 %A0

Just curious. %A0 Did we "goad" the Earl of Cardigan to charge those guns at Balaclava? %A0Did we "goad" those Polish officers to their death in the Katyn Forest? %A0Did we.....(need I go on here?)



No, we didn't. And more importantly, we didn't have the arrogance to look at that history and think we could change it. Somehow we managed to build a great America anyway.
Aw, Sam. Our Founders did exactly that - they looked at history and changed it, offering an entirely new form of social contract that has inspired nations for centuries.


Observe good faith and justice toward all nations. Cultivate peace and harmony with all. Religion and morality enjoin this conduct. And can it be that good policy does not equally enjoin it? It will be worthy of a free, enlightened, and at no distant period a great nation to give to mankind the magnanimous and too novel example of a people always guided by an exalted justice and benevolence. Who can doubt that in the course of time and things the fruits of such a plan would richly repay any temporary advantages which might be lost by a steady adherence to it? Can it be that Providence has not connected the permanent felicity of a nation with its virtue? The experiment, at least, is recommended by every sentiment which ennobles human nature. Alas! is it rendered impossible by its vices?

In the execution of such a plan nothing is more essential than that permanent, inveterate antipathies against particular nations and passionate attachments for others should be excluded, and that in place of them just and amicable feelings toward all should be cultivated. The nation which indulges toward another an habitual hatred or an habitual fondness is in some degree a slave. It is a slave to its animosity or to its affection, either of which is sufficient to lead it astray from its duty and its interest. Antipathy in one nation against another disposes each more readily to offer insult and injury, to lay hold of slight causes of umbrage, and to be haughty and intractable when accidental or trifling occasions of dispute occur.

Hence frequent collisions, obstinate, envenomed, and bloody contests. The nation prompted by ill will and resentment sometimes impels to war the government contrary to the best calculations of policy. The government sometimes participates in the national propensity, and adopts through passion what reason would reject. At other times it makes the animosity of the nation subservient to projects of hostility, instigated by pride, ambition, and other sinister and pernicious motives. The peace often, sometimes perhaps the liberty, of nations has been the victim.

So, likewise, a passionate attachment of one nation for another produces a variety of evils. Sympathy for the favorite nation, facilitating the illusion of an imaginary common interest in cases where no real common interest exists, and infusing into one the enmities of the other, betrays the former into a participation in the quarrels and wars of the latter without adequate inducement or justification. It leads also to concessions to the favorite nation of privileges denied to others, which is apt doubly to injure the nation making the concessions by unnecessarily parting with what ought to have been retained, and by exciting jealousy, ill will, and a disposition to retaliate in the parties from whom equal privileges are withheld; and it gives to ambitious, corrupted, or deluded citizens (who devote themselves to the favorite nation) facility to betray or sacrifice the interests of their own country without odium, sometimes even with popularity, gilding with the appearances of a virtuous sense of obligation, a commendable deference for public opinion, or a laudable zeal for public good the base or foolish compliances of ambition, corruption, or infatuation.

As avenues to foreign influence in innumerable ways, such attachments are particularly alarming to the truly enlightened and independent patriot. How many opportunities do they afford to tamper with domestic factions, to practice the arts of seduction, to mislead public opinion, to influence or awe the public councils! Such an attachment of a small or weak toward a great and powerful nation dooms the former to be the satellite of the latter. Against the insidious wiles of foreign influence (I conjure you to believe me, fellow-citizens) the jealousy of a free people ought to be constantly awake, since history and experience prove that foreign influence is one of the most baneful foes of republican government. But that jealousy, to be useful, must be impartial, else it becomes the instrument of the very influence to be avoided, instead of a defense against it. Excessive partiality for one foreign nation and excessive dislike of another cause those whom they actuate to see danger only on one side, and serve to veil and even second the arts of influence on the other. Real patriots who may resist the intrigues of the favorite are liable to become suspected and odious, while its tools and dupes usurp the applause and confidence of the people to surrender their interests.

The great rule of conduct for us in regard to foreign nations is, in extending our commercial relations to have with them as little political connection as possible. So far as we have already formed engagements let them be fulfilled with perfect good faith. Here let us stop.

Europe has a set of primary interests which to us have none or a very remote relation. Hence she must be engaged in frequent controversies, the causes of which are essentially foreign to our concerns. Hence, therefore, it must be unwise in us to implicate ourselves by artificial ties in the ordinary vicissitudes of her politics or the ordinary combinations and collisions of her friendships or enmities.

Our detached and distant situation invites and enables us to pursue a different course. If we remain one people, under an efficient government, the period is not far off when we may defy material injury from external annoyance; when we may take such an attitude as will cause the neutrality we may at any time resolve upon to be scrupulously respected; when belligerent nations, under the impossibility of making acquisitions upon us, will not lightly hazard the giving us provocation; when we may choose peace or war, as our interest, guided by justice, shall counsel.

Why forego the advantages of so peculiar a situation? Why quit our own to stand upon foreign ground? Why, by interweaving our destiny with that of any part of Europe, entangle our peace and prosperity in the toils of European ambition, rivalship, interest, humor, or caprice?

It is our true policy to steer clear of permanent alliances with any portion of the foreign world, so far, I mean, as we are now at liberty to do it; for let me not be understood as capable of patronizing infidelity to existing engagements. I hold the maxim no less applicable to public than to private affairs that honesty is always the best policy. I repeat, therefore, let those engagements be observed in their genuine sense. But in my opinion it is unnecessary and would be unwise to extend them.

Taking care always to keep ourselves by suitable establishments on a respectable defensive posture, we may safely trust to temporary alliances for extraordinary emergencies.

Harmony, liberal intercourse with all nations are recommended by policy, humanity, and interest. But even our commercial policy should hold an equal and impartial hand, neither seeking nor granting exclusive favors or preferences; consulting the natural course of things; diffusing and diversifying by gentle means the streams of commerce, but forcing nothing; establishing with powers so disposed, in order to give trade a stable course, to define the rights of our merchants, and to enable the Government to support them, conventional rules of intercourse, the best that present circumstances and mutual opinion will permit, but temporary and liable to be from time to time abandoned or varied as experience and circumstances shall dictate; constantly keeping in view that it is folly in one nation to look for disinterested favors from another; that it must pay with a portion of its independence for whatever it may accept under that character; that by such acceptance it may place itself in the condition of having given equivalents for nominal favors, and yet of being reproached with ingratitude for not giving more. There can be no greater error than to expect or calculate upon real favors from nation to nation. It is an illusion which experience must cure, which a just pride ought to discard.

George Washington
I found that part in bold to be particularly amusing, as you are indeed demanding the Ukrainians to surrender their interests so that you may....what?.....exactly what is the gain, other than to Russia, from the policy you propose?

Most pointedly, Washington's Warning simply does not fit the dynamic. This policy exists within the context of post-Cold War policy toward Russia, which has fit within Washington's recommendations on unstable alliances. On the particulars of Ukraine, we've had no formal alliance of any substance with them in our history. In the last 12 months, we have sold them a modest amount arms and ammunition for use not to invade others but to defend their Republic from an invasion by an autocratic power. So there is, quite patently, no evidence of either momentary infatuation or long-term attachment. Neither does supporting Ukraine risk dragging us into entanglements that threaten escalation. Our policy is by any measure squarely within the warnings issued by Washington, rooted in self-interest. On not a single plank of alleged benefit are the interests of the American people enhanced by appeasing Russian desires for hegemony over Central Europe. Quite the opposite. Helping like-minded peoples to defend their own self-governing Republic is a policy simultaneously principled and pragmatic, a rarer instance where the dynamics of morals and markets align.

I do have to hand it to you, though. Using Washington's Farewell Address to beg the question on Russian Appeasement is an irony not at all sublime, but rather amplified to garishness by the sheer audacity of the effort.
Sam Lowry
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whiterock said:

Sam Lowry said:

whiterock said:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Everyone else isn't responsible. It's the US that's responsible for actively goading them to fight.
It's almost like history of American inspired aggression started in 1776, before which time there was nothing but sweetness and lightness between Russians and Sami, Swedes, Finns, Balts, Poles, Slovaks, Hungarians, Romanians, Moldovans, Bulgarians, Ottomans, Georgians, Armenians, Kipchaks, Pechenegs, Cossacks, Tatars, Chechens Ukrainians, Belorussians, Khazars, Mongols, Iranians, Arabs, Khazaks, a half-dozen lesser Turkic tribes, %A0etc....... %A0(just going around the clock from memory....might have missed a few). %A0 %A0

Just curious. %A0 Did we "goad" the Earl of Cardigan to charge those guns at Balaclava? %A0Did we "goad" those Polish officers to their death in the Katyn Forest? %A0Did we.....(need I go on here?)



No, we didn't. And more importantly, we didn't have the arrogance to look at that history and think we could change it. Somehow we managed to build a great America anyway.
Aw, Sam. Our Founders did exactly that - they looked at history and changed it, offering an entirely new form of social contract that has inspired nations for centuries.


Observe good faith and justice toward all nations. Cultivate peace and harmony with all. Religion and morality enjoin this conduct. And can it be that good policy does not equally enjoin it? It will be worthy of a free, enlightened, and at no distant period a great nation to give to mankind the magnanimous and too novel example of a people always guided by an exalted justice and benevolence. Who can doubt that in the course of time and things the fruits of such a plan would richly repay any temporary advantages which might be lost by a steady adherence to it? Can it be that Providence has not connected the permanent felicity of a nation with its virtue? The experiment, at least, is recommended by every sentiment which ennobles human nature. Alas! is it rendered impossible by its vices?

In the execution of such a plan nothing is more essential than that permanent, inveterate antipathies against particular nations and passionate attachments for others should be excluded, and that in place of them just and amicable feelings toward all should be cultivated. The nation which indulges toward another an habitual hatred or an habitual fondness is in some degree a slave. It is a slave to its animosity or to its affection, either of which is sufficient to lead it astray from its duty and its interest. Antipathy in one nation against another disposes each more readily to offer insult and injury, to lay hold of slight causes of umbrage, and to be haughty and intractable when accidental or trifling occasions of dispute occur.

Hence frequent collisions, obstinate, envenomed, and bloody contests. The nation prompted by ill will and resentment sometimes impels to war the government contrary to the best calculations of policy. The government sometimes participates in the national propensity, and adopts through passion what reason would reject. At other times it makes the animosity of the nation subservient to projects of hostility, instigated by pride, ambition, and other sinister and pernicious motives. The peace often, sometimes perhaps the liberty, of nations has been the victim.

So, likewise, a passionate attachment of one nation for another produces a variety of evils. Sympathy for the favorite nation, facilitating the illusion of an imaginary common interest in cases where no real common interest exists, and infusing into one the enmities of the other, betrays the former into a participation in the quarrels and wars of the latter without adequate inducement or justification. It leads also to concessions to the favorite nation of privileges denied to others, which is apt doubly to injure the nation making the concessions by unnecessarily parting with what ought to have been retained, and by exciting jealousy, ill will, and a disposition to retaliate in the parties from whom equal privileges are withheld; and it gives to ambitious, corrupted, or deluded citizens (who devote themselves to the favorite nation) facility to betray or sacrifice the interests of their own country without odium, sometimes even with popularity, gilding with the appearances of a virtuous sense of obligation, a commendable deference for public opinion, or a laudable zeal for public good the base or foolish compliances of ambition, corruption, or infatuation.

As avenues to foreign influence in innumerable ways, such attachments are particularly alarming to the truly enlightened and independent patriot. How many opportunities do they afford to tamper with domestic factions, to practice the arts of seduction, to mislead public opinion, to influence or awe the public councils! Such an attachment of a small or weak toward a great and powerful nation dooms the former to be the satellite of the latter. Against the insidious wiles of foreign influence (I conjure you to believe me, fellow-citizens) the jealousy of a free people ought to be constantly awake, since history and experience prove that foreign influence is one of the most baneful foes of republican government. But that jealousy, to be useful, must be impartial, else it becomes the instrument of the very influence to be avoided, instead of a defense against it. Excessive partiality for one foreign nation and excessive dislike of another cause those whom they actuate to see danger only on one side, and serve to veil and even second the arts of influence on the other. Real patriots who may resist the intrigues of the favorite are liable to become suspected and odious, while its tools and dupes usurp the applause and confidence of the people to surrender their interests.

The great rule of conduct for us in regard to foreign nations is, in extending our commercial relations to have with them as little political connection as possible. So far as we have already formed engagements let them be fulfilled with perfect good faith. Here let us stop.

Europe has a set of primary interests which to us have none or a very remote relation. Hence she must be engaged in frequent controversies, the causes of which are essentially foreign to our concerns. Hence, therefore, it must be unwise in us to implicate ourselves by artificial ties in the ordinary vicissitudes of her politics or the ordinary combinations and collisions of her friendships or enmities.

Our detached and distant situation invites and enables us to pursue a different course. If we remain one people, under an efficient government, the period is not far off when we may defy material injury from external annoyance; when we may take such an attitude as will cause the neutrality we may at any time resolve upon to be scrupulously respected; when belligerent nations, under the impossibility of making acquisitions upon us, will not lightly hazard the giving us provocation; when we may choose peace or war, as our interest, guided by justice, shall counsel.

Why forego the advantages of so peculiar a situation? Why quit our own to stand upon foreign ground? Why, by interweaving our destiny with that of any part of Europe, entangle our peace and prosperity in the toils of European ambition, rivalship, interest, humor, or caprice?

It is our true policy to steer clear of permanent alliances with any portion of the foreign world, so far, I mean, as we are now at liberty to do it; for let me not be understood as capable of patronizing infidelity to existing engagements. I hold the maxim no less applicable to public than to private affairs that honesty is always the best policy. I repeat, therefore, let those engagements be observed in their genuine sense. But in my opinion it is unnecessary and would be unwise to extend them.

Taking care always to keep ourselves by suitable establishments on a respectable defensive posture, we may safely trust to temporary alliances for extraordinary emergencies.

Harmony, liberal intercourse with all nations are recommended by policy, humanity, and interest. But even our commercial policy should hold an equal and impartial hand, neither seeking nor granting exclusive favors or preferences; consulting the natural course of things; diffusing and diversifying by gentle means the streams of commerce, but forcing nothing; establishing with powers so disposed, in order to give trade a stable course, to define the rights of our merchants, and to enable the Government to support them, conventional rules of intercourse, the best that present circumstances and mutual opinion will permit, but temporary and liable to be from time to time abandoned or varied as experience and circumstances shall dictate; constantly keeping in view that it is folly in one nation to look for disinterested favors from another; that it must pay with a portion of its independence for whatever it may accept under that character; that by such acceptance it may place itself in the condition of having given equivalents for nominal favors, and yet of being reproached with ingratitude for not giving more. There can be no greater error than to expect or calculate upon real favors from nation to nation. It is an illusion which experience must cure, which a just pride ought to discard.

George Washington
I found that part in bold to be particularly amusing, as you are indeed demanding the Ukrainians to surrender their interests so that you may....what?.....exactly what is the gain, other than to Russia, from the policy you propose?

Most pointedly, Washington's Warning simply does not fit the dynamic. This policy exists within the context of post-Cold War policy toward Russia, which has fit within Washington's recommendations on unstable alliances. On the particulars of Ukraine, we've had no formal alliance of any substance with them in our history. In the last 12 months, we have sold them a modest amount arms and ammunition for use not to invade others but to defend their Republic from an invasion by an autocratic power. So there is, quite patently, no evidence of either momentary infatuation or long-term attachment. Neither does supporting Ukraine risk dragging us into entanglements that threaten escalation. Our policy is by any measure squarely within the warnings issued by Washington, rooted in self-interest. On not a single plank of alleged benefit are the interests of the American people enhanced by appeasing Russian desires for hegemony over Central Europe. Quite the opposite. Helping like-minded peoples to defend their own self-governing Republic is a policy simultaneously principled and pragmatic, a rarer instance where the dynamics of morals and markets align.

I do have to hand it to you, though. Using Washington's Farewell Address to beg the question on Russian Appeasement is an irony not at all sublime, but rather amplified to garishness by the sheer audacity of the effort.

I'm not demanding anything of Ukraine. But if you honestly believe our post-Cold War policy has followed Washington's recommendation of good faith, justice, peace, and harmony, you've perverted the meaning of those words beyond all recognition. In truth this is a textbook case of inveterate antipathy that's long outlived its usefulness to anyone except the most corrupt elements of our ruling class (and our client's).
whiterock
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Sam Lowry said:

whiterock said:

Sam Lowry said:

whiterock said:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Everyone else isn't responsible. It's the US that's responsible for actively goading them to fight.
It's almost like history of American inspired aggression started in 1776, before which time there was nothing but sweetness and lightness between Russians and Sami, Swedes, Finns, Balts, Poles, Slovaks, Hungarians, Romanians, Moldovans, Bulgarians, Ottomans, Georgians, Armenians, Kipchaks, Pechenegs, Cossacks, Tatars, Chechens Ukrainians, Belorussians, Khazars, Mongols, Iranians, Arabs, Khazaks, a half-dozen lesser Turkic tribes, %A0etc....... %A0(just going around the clock from memory....might have missed a few). %A0 %A0

Just curious. %A0 Did we "goad" the Earl of Cardigan to charge those guns at Balaclava? %A0Did we "goad" those Polish officers to their death in the Katyn Forest? %A0Did we.....(need I go on here?)



No, we didn't. And more importantly, we didn't have the arrogance to look at that history and think we could change it. Somehow we managed to build a great America anyway.
Aw, Sam. Our Founders did exactly that - they looked at history and changed it, offering an entirely new form of social contract that has inspired nations for centuries.


Observe good faith and justice toward all nations. Cultivate peace and harmony with all. Religion and morality enjoin this conduct. And can it be that good policy does not equally enjoin it? It will be worthy of a free, enlightened, and at no distant period a great nation to give to mankind the magnanimous and too novel example of a people always guided by an exalted justice and benevolence. Who can doubt that in the course of time and things the fruits of such a plan would richly repay any temporary advantages which might be lost by a steady adherence to it? Can it be that Providence has not connected the permanent felicity of a nation with its virtue? The experiment, at least, is recommended by every sentiment which ennobles human nature. Alas! is it rendered impossible by its vices?

In the execution of such a plan nothing is more essential than that permanent, inveterate antipathies against particular nations and passionate attachments for others should be excluded, and that in place of them just and amicable feelings toward all should be cultivated. The nation which indulges toward another an habitual hatred or an habitual fondness is in some degree a slave. It is a slave to its animosity or to its affection, either of which is sufficient to lead it astray from its duty and its interest. Antipathy in one nation against another disposes each more readily to offer insult and injury, to lay hold of slight causes of umbrage, and to be haughty and intractable when accidental or trifling occasions of dispute occur.

Hence frequent collisions, obstinate, envenomed, and bloody contests. The nation prompted by ill will and resentment sometimes impels to war the government contrary to the best calculations of policy. The government sometimes participates in the national propensity, and adopts through passion what reason would reject. At other times it makes the animosity of the nation subservient to projects of hostility, instigated by pride, ambition, and other sinister and pernicious motives. The peace often, sometimes perhaps the liberty, of nations has been the victim.

So, likewise, a passionate attachment of one nation for another produces a variety of evils. Sympathy for the favorite nation, facilitating the illusion of an imaginary common interest in cases where no real common interest exists, and infusing into one the enmities of the other, betrays the former into a participation in the quarrels and wars of the latter without adequate inducement or justification. It leads also to concessions to the favorite nation of privileges denied to others, which is apt doubly to injure the nation making the concessions by unnecessarily parting with what ought to have been retained, and by exciting jealousy, ill will, and a disposition to retaliate in the parties from whom equal privileges are withheld; and it gives to ambitious, corrupted, or deluded citizens (who devote themselves to the favorite nation) facility to betray or sacrifice the interests of their own country without odium, sometimes even with popularity, gilding with the appearances of a virtuous sense of obligation, a commendable deference for public opinion, or a laudable zeal for public good the base or foolish compliances of ambition, corruption, or infatuation.

As avenues to foreign influence in innumerable ways, such attachments are particularly alarming to the truly enlightened and independent patriot. How many opportunities do they afford to tamper with domestic factions, to practice the arts of seduction, to mislead public opinion, to influence or awe the public councils! Such an attachment of a small or weak toward a great and powerful nation dooms the former to be the satellite of the latter. Against the insidious wiles of foreign influence (I conjure you to believe me, fellow-citizens) the jealousy of a free people ought to be constantly awake, since history and experience prove that foreign influence is one of the most baneful foes of republican government. But that jealousy, to be useful, must be impartial, else it becomes the instrument of the very influence to be avoided, instead of a defense against it. Excessive partiality for one foreign nation and excessive dislike of another cause those whom they actuate to see danger only on one side, and serve to veil and even second the arts of influence on the other. Real patriots who may resist the intrigues of the favorite are liable to become suspected and odious, while its tools and dupes usurp the applause and confidence of the people to surrender their interests.

The great rule of conduct for us in regard to foreign nations is, in extending our commercial relations to have with them as little political connection as possible. So far as we have already formed engagements let them be fulfilled with perfect good faith. Here let us stop.

Europe has a set of primary interests which to us have none or a very remote relation. Hence she must be engaged in frequent controversies, the causes of which are essentially foreign to our concerns. Hence, therefore, it must be unwise in us to implicate ourselves by artificial ties in the ordinary vicissitudes of her politics or the ordinary combinations and collisions of her friendships or enmities.

Our detached and distant situation invites and enables us to pursue a different course. If we remain one people, under an efficient government, the period is not far off when we may defy material injury from external annoyance; when we may take such an attitude as will cause the neutrality we may at any time resolve upon to be scrupulously respected; when belligerent nations, under the impossibility of making acquisitions upon us, will not lightly hazard the giving us provocation; when we may choose peace or war, as our interest, guided by justice, shall counsel.

Why forego the advantages of so peculiar a situation? Why quit our own to stand upon foreign ground? Why, by interweaving our destiny with that of any part of Europe, entangle our peace and prosperity in the toils of European ambition, rivalship, interest, humor, or caprice?

It is our true policy to steer clear of permanent alliances with any portion of the foreign world, so far, I mean, as we are now at liberty to do it; for let me not be understood as capable of patronizing infidelity to existing engagements. I hold the maxim no less applicable to public than to private affairs that honesty is always the best policy. I repeat, therefore, let those engagements be observed in their genuine sense. But in my opinion it is unnecessary and would be unwise to extend them.

Taking care always to keep ourselves by suitable establishments on a respectable defensive posture, we may safely trust to temporary alliances for extraordinary emergencies.

Harmony, liberal intercourse with all nations are recommended by policy, humanity, and interest. But even our commercial policy should hold an equal and impartial hand, neither seeking nor granting exclusive favors or preferences; consulting the natural course of things; diffusing and diversifying by gentle means the streams of commerce, but forcing nothing; establishing with powers so disposed, in order to give trade a stable course, to define the rights of our merchants, and to enable the Government to support them, conventional rules of intercourse, the best that present circumstances and mutual opinion will permit, but temporary and liable to be from time to time abandoned or varied as experience and circumstances shall dictate; constantly keeping in view that it is folly in one nation to look for disinterested favors from another; that it must pay with a portion of its independence for whatever it may accept under that character; that by such acceptance it may place itself in the condition of having given equivalents for nominal favors, and yet of being reproached with ingratitude for not giving more. There can be no greater error than to expect or calculate upon real favors from nation to nation. It is an illusion which experience must cure, which a just pride ought to discard.

George Washington
I found that part in bold to be particularly amusing, as you are indeed demanding the Ukrainians to surrender their interests so that you may....what?.....exactly what is the gain, other than to Russia, from the policy you propose?

Most pointedly, Washington's Warning simply does not fit the dynamic. This policy exists within the context of post-Cold War policy toward Russia, which has fit within Washington's recommendations on unstable alliances. On the particulars of Ukraine, we've had no formal alliance of any substance with them in our history. In the last 12 months, we have sold them a modest amount arms and ammunition for use not to invade others but to defend their Republic from an invasion by an autocratic power. So there is, quite patently, no evidence of either momentary infatuation or long-term attachment. Neither does supporting Ukraine risk dragging us into entanglements that threaten escalation. Our policy is by any measure squarely within the warnings issued by Washington, rooted in self-interest. On not a single plank of alleged benefit are the interests of the American people enhanced by appeasing Russian desires for hegemony over Central Europe. Quite the opposite. Helping like-minded peoples to defend their own self-governing Republic is a policy simultaneously principled and pragmatic, a rarer instance where the dynamics of morals and markets align.

I do have to hand it to you, though. Using Washington's Farewell Address to beg the question on Russian Appeasement is an irony not at all sublime, but rather amplified to garishness by the sheer audacity of the effort.

I'm not demanding anything of Ukraine. But if you honestly believe our post-Cold War policy has followed Washington's recommendation of good faith, justice, peace, and harmony, you've perverted the meaning of those words beyond all recognition. In truth this is a textbook case of inveterate antipathy that's long outlived its usefulness to anyone except the most corrupt elements of our ruling class (and our client's).
into what post-cold war alliance have we entered?
have there not been sea changes in some of our historic alliances over the last 20 years?
can you not see at least one ischemic "180 degrees" foreign policy change?
can you not see another gradual evolution in a strategic relationship spanning several decades to nearly the same degree?

evidence of your refutation is everywhere, man.
Redbrickbear
How long do you want to ignore this user?
whiterock said:

Sam Lowry said:

whiterock said:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Everyone else isn't responsible. It's the US that's responsible for actively goading them to fight.
It's almost like history of American inspired aggression started in 1776, before which time there was nothing but sweetness and lightness between Russians and Sami, Swedes, Finns, Balts, Poles, Slovaks, Hungarians, Romanians, Moldovans, Bulgarians, Ottomans, Georgians, Armenians, Kipchaks, Pechenegs, Cossacks, Tatars, Chechens Ukrainians, Belorussians, Khazars, Mongols, Iranians, Arabs, Khazaks, a half-dozen lesser Turkic tribes, %A0etc....... %A0(just going around the clock from memory....might have missed a few). %A0 %A0

Just curious. %A0 Did we "goad" the Earl of Cardigan to charge those guns at Balaclava? %A0Did we "goad" those Polish officers to their death in the Katyn Forest? %A0Did we.....(need I go on here?)



No, we didn't. And more importantly, we didn't have the arrogance to look at that history and think we could change it. Somehow we managed to build a great America anyway.
Aw, Sam. Our Founders did exactly that - they looked at history and changed it, offering an entirely new form of social contract that has inspired nations for centuries.


Observe good faith and justice toward all nations. Cultivate peace and harmony with all. Religion and morality enjoin this conduct. And can it be that good policy does not equally enjoin it? It will be worthy of a free, enlightened, and at no distant period a great nation to give to mankind the magnanimous and too novel example of a people always guided by an exalted justice and benevolence. Who can doubt that in the course of time and things the fruits of such a plan would richly repay any temporary advantages which might be lost by a steady adherence to it? Can it be that Providence has not connected the permanent felicity of a nation with its virtue? The experiment, at least, is recommended by every sentiment which ennobles human nature. Alas! is it rendered impossible by its vices?

In the execution of such a plan nothing is more essential than that permanent, inveterate antipathies against particular nations and passionate attachments for others should be excluded, and that in place of them just and amicable feelings toward all should be cultivated. The nation which indulges toward another an habitual hatred or an habitual fondness is in some degree a slave. It is a slave to its animosity or to its affection, either of which is sufficient to lead it astray from its duty and its interest. Antipathy in one nation against another disposes each more readily to offer insult and injury, to lay hold of slight causes of umbrage, and to be haughty and intractable when accidental or trifling occasions of dispute occur.

Hence frequent collisions, obstinate, envenomed, and bloody contests. The nation prompted by ill will and resentment sometimes impels to war the government contrary to the best calculations of policy. The government sometimes participates in the national propensity, and adopts through passion what reason would reject. At other times it makes the animosity of the nation subservient to projects of hostility, instigated by pride, ambition, and other sinister and pernicious motives. The peace often, sometimes perhaps the liberty, of nations has been the victim.

So, likewise, a passionate attachment of one nation for another produces a variety of evils. Sympathy for the favorite nation, facilitating the illusion of an imaginary common interest in cases where no real common interest exists, and infusing into one the enmities of the other, betrays the former into a participation in the quarrels and wars of the latter without adequate inducement or justification. It leads also to concessions to the favorite nation of privileges denied to others, which is apt doubly to injure the nation making the concessions by unnecessarily parting with what ought to have been retained, and by exciting jealousy, ill will, and a disposition to retaliate in the parties from whom equal privileges are withheld; and it gives to ambitious, corrupted, or deluded citizens (who devote themselves to the favorite nation) facility to betray or sacrifice the interests of their own country without odium, sometimes even with popularity, gilding with the appearances of a virtuous sense of obligation, a commendable deference for public opinion, or a laudable zeal for public good the base or foolish compliances of ambition, corruption, or infatuation.

As avenues to foreign influence in innumerable ways, such attachments are particularly alarming to the truly enlightened and independent patriot. How many opportunities do they afford to tamper with domestic factions, to practice the arts of seduction, to mislead public opinion, to influence or awe the public councils! Such an attachment of a small or weak toward a great and powerful nation dooms the former to be the satellite of the latter. Against the insidious wiles of foreign influence (I conjure you to believe me, fellow-citizens) the jealousy of a free people ought to be constantly awake, since history and experience prove that foreign influence is one of the most baneful foes of republican government. But that jealousy, to be useful, must be impartial, else it becomes the instrument of the very influence to be avoided, instead of a defense against it. Excessive partiality for one foreign nation and excessive dislike of another cause those whom they actuate to see danger only on one side, and serve to veil and even second the arts of influence on the other. Real patriots who may resist the intrigues of the favorite are liable to become suspected and odious, while its tools and dupes usurp the applause and confidence of the people to surrender their interests.

The great rule of conduct for us in regard to foreign nations is, in extending our commercial relations to have with them as little political connection as possible. So far as we have already formed engagements let them be fulfilled with perfect good faith. Here let us stop.

Europe has a set of primary interests which to us have none or a very remote relation. Hence she must be engaged in frequent controversies, the causes of which are essentially foreign to our concerns. Hence, therefore, it must be unwise in us to implicate ourselves by artificial ties in the ordinary vicissitudes of her politics or the ordinary combinations and collisions of her friendships or enmities.

Our detached and distant situation invites and enables us to pursue a different course. If we remain one people, under an efficient government, the period is not far off when we may defy material injury from external annoyance; when we may take such an attitude as will cause the neutrality we may at any time resolve upon to be scrupulously respected; when belligerent nations, under the impossibility of making acquisitions upon us, will not lightly hazard the giving us provocation; when we may choose peace or war, as our interest, guided by justice, shall counsel.

Why forego the advantages of so peculiar a situation? Why quit our own to stand upon foreign ground? Why, by interweaving our destiny with that of any part of Europe, entangle our peace and prosperity in the toils of European ambition, rivalship, interest, humor, or caprice?

It is our true policy to steer clear of permanent alliances with any portion of the foreign world, so far, I mean, as we are now at liberty to do it; for let me not be understood as capable of patronizing infidelity to existing engagements. I hold the maxim no less applicable to public than to private affairs that honesty is always the best policy. I repeat, therefore, let those engagements be observed in their genuine sense. But in my opinion it is unnecessary and would be unwise to extend them.

Taking care always to keep ourselves by suitable establishments on a respectable defensive posture, we may safely trust to temporary alliances for extraordinary emergencies.

Harmony, liberal intercourse with all nations are recommended by policy, humanity, and interest. But even our commercial policy should hold an equal and impartial hand, neither seeking nor granting exclusive favors or preferences; consulting the natural course of things; diffusing and diversifying by gentle means the streams of commerce, but forcing nothing; establishing with powers so disposed, in order to give trade a stable course, to define the rights of our merchants, and to enable the Government to support them, conventional rules of intercourse, the best that present circumstances and mutual opinion will permit, but temporary and liable to be from time to time abandoned or varied as experience and circumstances shall dictate; constantly keeping in view that it is folly in one nation to look for disinterested favors from another; that it must pay with a portion of its independence for whatever it may accept under that character; that by such acceptance it may place itself in the condition of having given equivalents for nominal favors, and yet of being reproached with ingratitude for not giving more. There can be no greater error than to expect or calculate upon real favors from nation to nation. It is an illusion which experience must cure, which a just pride ought to discard.

George Washington
I found that part in bold to be particularly amusing, as you are indeed demanding the Ukrainians to surrender their interests so that you may....what?.....exactly what is the gain, other than to Russia, from the policy you propose?


It does Ukraine no good to continue to fight a bloody and costly war trying to get back two areas (Donbas and Crimea) that are filled with ethnic Russians and who Ukraine can not reconquer.

The long term interest of Ukrainians is to rebuild their economy and country...and become a part of the rich trading bloc know as the EU.

And one day NATO.

None of that is going to happen while they are in an active war.
Redbrickbear
How long do you want to ignore this user?
RMF5630 said:

Redbrickbear said:

HuMcK said:

I think you mistake cooperation for capitulation. We largely did try cooperation, we let them have the pieces of Ukraine they took in 2014 and left their energy industry alone. We flat out ignored Chechnya and Georgia getting swallowed up, not to mention brazen assassinations across western Europe. Three successive Presidents tried to reach out and work with Putin. Our next SecState after 2014 was an Exxon exec who had a Russian medal of friendship pinned on his chest by Putin himself. Of course Russia worked hard to help that SecState's boss get elected, so maybe that (and pretty much ignoring what they did in 2016) was just reciprocity.

What you want is for us (and Ukraine, then whoever else) to just lie down and take it, which frankly is incomprehensible to me. If their strategy works for them, why would they stop using it?


How could Russia "swallow up" Chechnya when it's always legally been apart of the Russian Federation.

Are you under the impression that Chechnya was an independent nation?


"n 9 April 1991, shortly before the collapse of the Soviet Union, the Supreme Council of Georgia declared independence after a referendum held on 31 March. Georgia was the first non-Baltic republic of the Soviet Union to officially declare independence."

You continually act like 1991 never happened, let alone1921 when the Soviets took over! The Putin apologist keep bringing up 1880's and earlier when in the 1990s Georgia was independent. Russia was wrong in Georgia and Chechnya just like in Ukraine now. Using you logic, we should be a British Colony!
Georgia and Chechnya are two completely different places.

So not sure why are seeming to conflate them.

Georgia was an independent Kingdom all the way back in the year 1008 AD

And had the status of a full Soviet Republic during the USSR.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgian_Soviet_Socialist_Republic

It declared its independence in 1991 and Russia did not try to stop it.

Chechnya was never a full kingdom and has been apart of Russia proper since the 1800s after the Russians conquered the Islamic mountain tribes of that area.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_conquest_of_Chechnya_and_Dagestan

These two places have very different histories.
whiterock
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Redbrickbear said:

whiterock said:

Sam Lowry said:

whiterock said:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Everyone else isn't responsible. It's the US that's responsible for actively goading them to fight.
It's almost like history of American inspired aggression started in 1776, before which time there was nothing but sweetness and lightness between Russians and Sami, Swedes, Finns, Balts, Poles, Slovaks, Hungarians, Romanians, Moldovans, Bulgarians, Ottomans, Georgians, Armenians, Kipchaks, Pechenegs, Cossacks, Tatars, Chechens Ukrainians, Belorussians, Khazars, Mongols, Iranians, Arabs, Khazaks, a half-dozen lesser Turkic tribes, %A0etc....... %A0(just going around the clock from memory....might have missed a few). %A0 %A0

Just curious. %A0 Did we "goad" the Earl of Cardigan to charge those guns at Balaclava? %A0Did we "goad" those Polish officers to their death in the Katyn Forest? %A0Did we.....(need I go on here?)



No, we didn't. And more importantly, we didn't have the arrogance to look at that history and think we could change it. Somehow we managed to build a great America anyway.
Aw, Sam. Our Founders did exactly that - they looked at history and changed it, offering an entirely new form of social contract that has inspired nations for centuries.


Observe good faith and justice toward all nations. Cultivate peace and harmony with all. Religion and morality enjoin this conduct. And can it be that good policy does not equally enjoin it? It will be worthy of a free, enlightened, and at no distant period a great nation to give to mankind the magnanimous and too novel example of a people always guided by an exalted justice and benevolence. Who can doubt that in the course of time and things the fruits of such a plan would richly repay any temporary advantages which might be lost by a steady adherence to it? Can it be that Providence has not connected the permanent felicity of a nation with its virtue? The experiment, at least, is recommended by every sentiment which ennobles human nature. Alas! is it rendered impossible by its vices?

In the execution of such a plan nothing is more essential than that permanent, inveterate antipathies against particular nations and passionate attachments for others should be excluded, and that in place of them just and amicable feelings toward all should be cultivated. The nation which indulges toward another an habitual hatred or an habitual fondness is in some degree a slave. It is a slave to its animosity or to its affection, either of which is sufficient to lead it astray from its duty and its interest. Antipathy in one nation against another disposes each more readily to offer insult and injury, to lay hold of slight causes of umbrage, and to be haughty and intractable when accidental or trifling occasions of dispute occur.

Hence frequent collisions, obstinate, envenomed, and bloody contests. The nation prompted by ill will and resentment sometimes impels to war the government contrary to the best calculations of policy. The government sometimes participates in the national propensity, and adopts through passion what reason would reject. At other times it makes the animosity of the nation subservient to projects of hostility, instigated by pride, ambition, and other sinister and pernicious motives. The peace often, sometimes perhaps the liberty, of nations has been the victim.

So, likewise, a passionate attachment of one nation for another produces a variety of evils. Sympathy for the favorite nation, facilitating the illusion of an imaginary common interest in cases where no real common interest exists, and infusing into one the enmities of the other, betrays the former into a participation in the quarrels and wars of the latter without adequate inducement or justification. It leads also to concessions to the favorite nation of privileges denied to others, which is apt doubly to injure the nation making the concessions by unnecessarily parting with what ought to have been retained, and by exciting jealousy, ill will, and a disposition to retaliate in the parties from whom equal privileges are withheld; and it gives to ambitious, corrupted, or deluded citizens (who devote themselves to the favorite nation) facility to betray or sacrifice the interests of their own country without odium, sometimes even with popularity, gilding with the appearances of a virtuous sense of obligation, a commendable deference for public opinion, or a laudable zeal for public good the base or foolish compliances of ambition, corruption, or infatuation.

As avenues to foreign influence in innumerable ways, such attachments are particularly alarming to the truly enlightened and independent patriot. How many opportunities do they afford to tamper with domestic factions, to practice the arts of seduction, to mislead public opinion, to influence or awe the public councils! Such an attachment of a small or weak toward a great and powerful nation dooms the former to be the satellite of the latter. Against the insidious wiles of foreign influence (I conjure you to believe me, fellow-citizens) the jealousy of a free people ought to be constantly awake, since history and experience prove that foreign influence is one of the most baneful foes of republican government. But that jealousy, to be useful, must be impartial, else it becomes the instrument of the very influence to be avoided, instead of a defense against it. Excessive partiality for one foreign nation and excessive dislike of another cause those whom they actuate to see danger only on one side, and serve to veil and even second the arts of influence on the other. Real patriots who may resist the intrigues of the favorite are liable to become suspected and odious, while its tools and dupes usurp the applause and confidence of the people to surrender their interests.

The great rule of conduct for us in regard to foreign nations is, in extending our commercial relations to have with them as little political connection as possible. So far as we have already formed engagements let them be fulfilled with perfect good faith. Here let us stop.

Europe has a set of primary interests which to us have none or a very remote relation. Hence she must be engaged in frequent controversies, the causes of which are essentially foreign to our concerns. Hence, therefore, it must be unwise in us to implicate ourselves by artificial ties in the ordinary vicissitudes of her politics or the ordinary combinations and collisions of her friendships or enmities.

Our detached and distant situation invites and enables us to pursue a different course. If we remain one people, under an efficient government, the period is not far off when we may defy material injury from external annoyance; when we may take such an attitude as will cause the neutrality we may at any time resolve upon to be scrupulously respected; when belligerent nations, under the impossibility of making acquisitions upon us, will not lightly hazard the giving us provocation; when we may choose peace or war, as our interest, guided by justice, shall counsel.

Why forego the advantages of so peculiar a situation? Why quit our own to stand upon foreign ground? Why, by interweaving our destiny with that of any part of Europe, entangle our peace and prosperity in the toils of European ambition, rivalship, interest, humor, or caprice?

It is our true policy to steer clear of permanent alliances with any portion of the foreign world, so far, I mean, as we are now at liberty to do it; for let me not be understood as capable of patronizing infidelity to existing engagements. I hold the maxim no less applicable to public than to private affairs that honesty is always the best policy. I repeat, therefore, let those engagements be observed in their genuine sense. But in my opinion it is unnecessary and would be unwise to extend them.

Taking care always to keep ourselves by suitable establishments on a respectable defensive posture, we may safely trust to temporary alliances for extraordinary emergencies.

Harmony, liberal intercourse with all nations are recommended by policy, humanity, and interest. But even our commercial policy should hold an equal and impartial hand, neither seeking nor granting exclusive favors or preferences; consulting the natural course of things; diffusing and diversifying by gentle means the streams of commerce, but forcing nothing; establishing with powers so disposed, in order to give trade a stable course, to define the rights of our merchants, and to enable the Government to support them, conventional rules of intercourse, the best that present circumstances and mutual opinion will permit, but temporary and liable to be from time to time abandoned or varied as experience and circumstances shall dictate; constantly keeping in view that it is folly in one nation to look for disinterested favors from another; that it must pay with a portion of its independence for whatever it may accept under that character; that by such acceptance it may place itself in the condition of having given equivalents for nominal favors, and yet of being reproached with ingratitude for not giving more. There can be no greater error than to expect or calculate upon real favors from nation to nation. It is an illusion which experience must cure, which a just pride ought to discard.

George Washington
I found that part in bold to be particularly amusing, as you are indeed demanding the Ukrainians to surrender their interests so that you may....what?.....exactly what is the gain, other than to Russia, from the policy you propose?


It does Ukraine no good to continue to fight a bloody and costly war trying to get back two areas (Donbas and Crimea) that are filled with ethnic Russians and who Ukraine can not reconquer.

The long term interest of Ukrainians is to rebuild their economy and country...and become a part of the rich trading bloc know as the EU.

And one day NATO.

None of that is going to happen while they are in an active war.
Well, you are incorrect that Ukraine cannot recover the Donbas and Crimea. Such is indeed possible, and we will have a better sense of that this summer. Both areas are at this point mostly filled with soldiers, so the outcome of battle will drive the demographics in favor of the victor.

Mostly, though, the determination of what is good or not is not for you or me or anyone else but the Ukrainian people. They WANT to fight. Now, we've previously abandoned on the battlefield people who still wanted to fight...notably the Kurds....because there were larger issues at play. We did have a benefit to derive from pulling our support. But what benefit do we derive from letting Russia carve off pieces of internationally recognized Ukrainian territory?

The critics of US support for Ukraine never, ever address that question. How are American interests enhanced by letting Russia nibble off pieces of whatever sovereign nations it decides is "in their sphere of interests?"

I'll cede that you have a point on budgetary questions.
But what else?
Redbrickbear
How long do you want to ignore this user?
whiterock said:

Redbrickbear said:

whiterock said:

Sam Lowry said:

whiterock said:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Everyone else isn't responsible. It's the US that's responsible for actively goading them to fight.
It's almost like history of American inspired aggression started in 1776, before which time there was nothing but sweetness and lightness between Russians and Sami, Swedes, Finns, Balts, Poles, Slovaks, Hungarians, Romanians, Moldovans, Bulgarians, Ottomans, Georgians, Armenians, Kipchaks, Pechenegs, Cossacks, Tatars, Chechens Ukrainians, Belorussians, Khazars, Mongols, Iranians, Arabs, Khazaks, a half-dozen lesser Turkic tribes, %A0etc....... %A0(just going around the clock from memory....might have missed a few). %A0 %A0

Just curious. %A0 Did we "goad" the Earl of Cardigan to charge those guns at Balaclava? %A0Did we "goad" those Polish officers to their death in the Katyn Forest? %A0Did we.....(need I go on here?)



No, we didn't. And more importantly, we didn't have the arrogance to look at that history and think we could change it. Somehow we managed to build a great America anyway.
Aw, Sam. Our Founders did exactly that - they looked at history and changed it, offering an entirely new form of social contract that has inspired nations for centuries.


Observe good faith and justice toward all nations. Cultivate peace and harmony with all. Religion and morality enjoin this conduct. And can it be that good policy does not equally enjoin it? It will be worthy of a free, enlightened, and at no distant period a great nation to give to mankind the magnanimous and too novel example of a people always guided by an exalted justice and benevolence. Who can doubt that in the course of time and things the fruits of such a plan would richly repay any temporary advantages which might be lost by a steady adherence to it? Can it be that Providence has not connected the permanent felicity of a nation with its virtue? The experiment, at least, is recommended by every sentiment which ennobles human nature. Alas! is it rendered impossible by its vices?

In the execution of such a plan nothing is more essential than that permanent, inveterate antipathies against particular nations and passionate attachments for others should be excluded, and that in place of them just and amicable feelings toward all should be cultivated. The nation which indulges toward another an habitual hatred or an habitual fondness is in some degree a slave. It is a slave to its animosity or to its affection, either of which is sufficient to lead it astray from its duty and its interest. Antipathy in one nation against another disposes each more readily to offer insult and injury, to lay hold of slight causes of umbrage, and to be haughty and intractable when accidental or trifling occasions of dispute occur.

Hence frequent collisions, obstinate, envenomed, and bloody contests. The nation prompted by ill will and resentment sometimes impels to war the government contrary to the best calculations of policy. The government sometimes participates in the national propensity, and adopts through passion what reason would reject. At other times it makes the animosity of the nation subservient to projects of hostility, instigated by pride, ambition, and other sinister and pernicious motives. The peace often, sometimes perhaps the liberty, of nations has been the victim.

So, likewise, a passionate attachment of one nation for another produces a variety of evils. Sympathy for the favorite nation, facilitating the illusion of an imaginary common interest in cases where no real common interest exists, and infusing into one the enmities of the other, betrays the former into a participation in the quarrels and wars of the latter without adequate inducement or justification. It leads also to concessions to the favorite nation of privileges denied to others, which is apt doubly to injure the nation making the concessions by unnecessarily parting with what ought to have been retained, and by exciting jealousy, ill will, and a disposition to retaliate in the parties from whom equal privileges are withheld; and it gives to ambitious, corrupted, or deluded citizens (who devote themselves to the favorite nation) facility to betray or sacrifice the interests of their own country without odium, sometimes even with popularity, gilding with the appearances of a virtuous sense of obligation, a commendable deference for public opinion, or a laudable zeal for public good the base or foolish compliances of ambition, corruption, or infatuation.

As avenues to foreign influence in innumerable ways, such attachments are particularly alarming to the truly enlightened and independent patriot. How many opportunities do they afford to tamper with domestic factions, to practice the arts of seduction, to mislead public opinion, to influence or awe the public councils! Such an attachment of a small or weak toward a great and powerful nation dooms the former to be the satellite of the latter. Against the insidious wiles of foreign influence (I conjure you to believe me, fellow-citizens) the jealousy of a free people ought to be constantly awake, since history and experience prove that foreign influence is one of the most baneful foes of republican government. But that jealousy, to be useful, must be impartial, else it becomes the instrument of the very influence to be avoided, instead of a defense against it. Excessive partiality for one foreign nation and excessive dislike of another cause those whom they actuate to see danger only on one side, and serve to veil and even second the arts of influence on the other. Real patriots who may resist the intrigues of the favorite are liable to become suspected and odious, while its tools and dupes usurp the applause and confidence of the people to surrender their interests.

The great rule of conduct for us in regard to foreign nations is, in extending our commercial relations to have with them as little political connection as possible. So far as we have already formed engagements let them be fulfilled with perfect good faith. Here let us stop.

Europe has a set of primary interests which to us have none or a very remote relation. Hence she must be engaged in frequent controversies, the causes of which are essentially foreign to our concerns. Hence, therefore, it must be unwise in us to implicate ourselves by artificial ties in the ordinary vicissitudes of her politics or the ordinary combinations and collisions of her friendships or enmities.

Our detached and distant situation invites and enables us to pursue a different course. If we remain one people, under an efficient government, the period is not far off when we may defy material injury from external annoyance; when we may take such an attitude as will cause the neutrality we may at any time resolve upon to be scrupulously respected; when belligerent nations, under the impossibility of making acquisitions upon us, will not lightly hazard the giving us provocation; when we may choose peace or war, as our interest, guided by justice, shall counsel.

Why forego the advantages of so peculiar a situation? Why quit our own to stand upon foreign ground? Why, by interweaving our destiny with that of any part of Europe, entangle our peace and prosperity in the toils of European ambition, rivalship, interest, humor, or caprice?

It is our true policy to steer clear of permanent alliances with any portion of the foreign world, so far, I mean, as we are now at liberty to do it; for let me not be understood as capable of patronizing infidelity to existing engagements. I hold the maxim no less applicable to public than to private affairs that honesty is always the best policy. I repeat, therefore, let those engagements be observed in their genuine sense. But in my opinion it is unnecessary and would be unwise to extend them.

Taking care always to keep ourselves by suitable establishments on a respectable defensive posture, we may safely trust to temporary alliances for extraordinary emergencies.

Harmony, liberal intercourse with all nations are recommended by policy, humanity, and interest. But even our commercial policy should hold an equal and impartial hand, neither seeking nor granting exclusive favors or preferences; consulting the natural course of things; diffusing and diversifying by gentle means the streams of commerce, but forcing nothing; establishing with powers so disposed, in order to give trade a stable course, to define the rights of our merchants, and to enable the Government to support them, conventional rules of intercourse, the best that present circumstances and mutual opinion will permit, but temporary and liable to be from time to time abandoned or varied as experience and circumstances shall dictate; constantly keeping in view that it is folly in one nation to look for disinterested favors from another; that it must pay with a portion of its independence for whatever it may accept under that character; that by such acceptance it may place itself in the condition of having given equivalents for nominal favors, and yet of being reproached with ingratitude for not giving more. There can be no greater error than to expect or calculate upon real favors from nation to nation. It is an illusion which experience must cure, which a just pride ought to discard.

George Washington
I found that part in bold to be particularly amusing, as you are indeed demanding the Ukrainians to surrender their interests so that you may....what?.....exactly what is the gain, other than to Russia, from the policy you propose?


It does Ukraine no good to continue to fight a bloody and costly war trying to get back two areas (Donbas and Crimea) that are filled with ethnic Russians and who Ukraine can not reconquer.

The long term interest of Ukrainians is to rebuild their economy and country...and become a part of the rich trading bloc know as the EU.

And one day NATO.

None of that is going to happen while they are in an active war.
Well, you are incorrect that Ukraine cannot recover the Donbas and Crimea. Such is indeed possible, and we will have a better sense of that this summer. Both areas are at this point mostly filled with soldiers, so the outcome of battle will drive the demographics in favor of the victor.

Mostly, though, the determination of what is good or not is not for you or me or anyone else but the Ukrainian people. They WANT to fight. Now, we've previously abandoned on the battlefield people who still wanted to fight...notably the Kurds....because there were larger issues at play. We did have a benefit to derive from pulling our support. But what benefit do we derive from letting Russia carve off pieces of internationally recognized Ukrainian territory?

The critics of US support for Ukraine never, ever address that question. How are American interests enhanced by letting Russia nibble off pieces of whatever sovereign nations it decides is "in their sphere of interests?"

I'll cede that you have a point on budgetary questions.
But what else?

How are American interests enhanced by getting Ukrainians to die in mass in a most likely futile war to retake territory? Territory filled with people who don't consider themselves ethnic Ukrainians.

How are American interests enhanced by spending billions on a bloody stalemate?

The American intelligence community in the 1990s asserted that the USA had no strategic interests in Europe east of the Bug river.

Why has that changed? And if it is has then certainly we have no strategic interests east of the Dnieper river.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dnieper

[In contrast, the United States has never operated east of the Oder River; nor has it ever been engaged in Europe in non-linear, limited warfare (often under the threshold of kinetic war) against a major power that thrives off this type of conflict.]

https://jamestown.org/program/belarus-as-a-pivot-of-polands-grand-strategy/
FLBear5630
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Redbrickbear said:

RMF5630 said:

Redbrickbear said:

HuMcK said:

I think you mistake cooperation for capitulation. We largely did try cooperation, we let them have the pieces of Ukraine they took in 2014 and left their energy industry alone. We flat out ignored Chechnya and Georgia getting swallowed up, not to mention brazen assassinations across western Europe. Three successive Presidents tried to reach out and work with Putin. Our next SecState after 2014 was an Exxon exec who had a Russian medal of friendship pinned on his chest by Putin himself. Of course Russia worked hard to help that SecState's boss get elected, so maybe that (and pretty much ignoring what they did in 2016) was just reciprocity.

What you want is for us (and Ukraine, then whoever else) to just lie down and take it, which frankly is incomprehensible to me. If their strategy works for them, why would they stop using it?


How could Russia "swallow up" Chechnya when it's always legally been apart of the Russian Federation.

Are you under the impression that Chechnya was an independent nation?


"n 9 April 1991, shortly before the collapse of the Soviet Union, the Supreme Council of Georgia declared independence after a referendum held on 31 March. Georgia was the first non-Baltic republic of the Soviet Union to officially declare independence."

You continually act like 1991 never happened, let alone1921 when the Soviets took over! The Putin apologist keep bringing up 1880's and earlier when in the 1990s Georgia was independent. Russia was wrong in Georgia and Chechnya just like in Ukraine now. Using you logic, we should be a British Colony!
Georgia and Chechnya are two completely different places.

So not sure why are seeming to conflate them.

Georgia was an independent Kingdom all the way back in the year 1008 AD

And had the status of a full Soviet Republic during the USSR.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgian_Soviet_Socialist_Republic

It declared its independence in 1991 and Russia did not try to stop it.

Chechnya was never a full kingdom and has been apart of Russia proper since the 1800s after the Russians conquered the Islamic mountain tribes of that area.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_conquest_of_Chechnya_and_Dagestan

These two places have very different histories.

"On November 1, 1991, Head of the All-National Congress of the Chechen People, Dzokhar Dudayev issued a Decree of Sovereignty of the Chechen Republic[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_of_Sovereignty_of_the_Chechen_Republic#cite_note-Galina_M.-1][1][/url] (Russian: o ).[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_of_Sovereignty_of_the_Chechen_Republic#cite_note-Stanford_Libraries-2][2][/url] Between 1991 and 2000 Chechnya was de facto an independent state."

I don't post stuff I don't research first. They declared sovereignty in 1991, when the other Soviet Block nations declared Sovereignty. Just because you don't recognize it doesn't mean it didn't happen. So, you are wrong they did become independent until the Russian boot was put back on their throat.

The two areas have VERY different histories, just like ALL the Soviet/Russian satellites do. BUT, they all have one thing in common, RUSSIAN AGGRESSION, INVASION AND SUBJEGATION. You seem to be good with that...

Redbrickbear
How long do you want to ignore this user?
RMF5630 said:

Redbrickbear said:

RMF5630 said:

Redbrickbear said:

HuMcK said:

I think you mistake cooperation for capitulation. We largely did try cooperation, we let them have the pieces of Ukraine they took in 2014 and left their energy industry alone. We flat out ignored Chechnya and Georgia getting swallowed up, not to mention brazen assassinations across western Europe. Three successive Presidents tried to reach out and work with Putin. Our next SecState after 2014 was an Exxon exec who had a Russian medal of friendship pinned on his chest by Putin himself. Of course Russia worked hard to help that SecState's boss get elected, so maybe that (and pretty much ignoring what they did in 2016) was just reciprocity.

What you want is for us (and Ukraine, then whoever else) to just lie down and take it, which frankly is incomprehensible to me. If their strategy works for them, why would they stop using it?


How could Russia "swallow up" Chechnya when it's always legally been apart of the Russian Federation.

Are you under the impression that Chechnya was an independent nation?


"n 9 April 1991, shortly before the collapse of the Soviet Union, the Supreme Council of Georgia declared independence after a referendum held on 31 March. Georgia was the first non-Baltic republic of the Soviet Union to officially declare independence."

You continually act like 1991 never happened, let alone1921 when the Soviets took over! The Putin apologist keep bringing up 1880's and earlier when in the 1990s Georgia was independent. Russia was wrong in Georgia and Chechnya just like in Ukraine now. Using you logic, we should be a British Colony!
Georgia and Chechnya are two completely different places.

So not sure why are seeming to conflate them.

Georgia was an independent Kingdom all the way back in the year 1008 AD

And had the status of a full Soviet Republic during the USSR.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgian_Soviet_Socialist_Republic

It declared its independence in 1991 and Russia did not try to stop it.

Chechnya was never a full kingdom and has been apart of Russia proper since the 1800s after the Russians conquered the Islamic mountain tribes of that area.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_conquest_of_Chechnya_and_Dagestan

These two places have very different histories.

"On November 1, 1991, Head of the All-National Congress of the Chechen People, Dzokhar Dudayev issued a Decree of Sovereignty of the Chechen Republic[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_of_Sovereignty_of_the_Chechen_Republic#cite_note-Galina_M.-1][1][/url] (Russian: o ).[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_of_Sovereignty_of_the_Chechen_Republic#cite_note-Stanford_Libraries-2][2][/url] Between 1991 and 2000 Chechnya was de facto an independent state."

I don't post stuff I don't research first. They declared sovereignty in 1991, when the other Soviet Block nations declared Sovereignty. Just because you don't recognize it doesn't mean it didn't happen. So, you are wrong they did become independent until the Russian boot was put back on their throat.

The two areas have VERY different histories, just like ALL the Soviet/Russian satellites do. BUT, they all have one thing in common, RUSSIAN AGGRESSION, INVASION AND SUBJEGATION. You seem to be good with that...


If you want to defend the right of Chechnya to break off from the Russian Federation and to create an Islamic emirate...then fine go ahead.

I have no stake in the question itself.

But as a historic reality the region of Chechnya was never a sovereign Kingdom like Georgia and never was a full Soviet Republic within the USSR.

It was always part of Russia. (in whatever form.. Imperial Russia, Soviet Russia, modern Russian Federation)

All the countries that got their independence in 1991 had been full Soviet Republics.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republics_of_the_Soviet_Union
Sam Lowry
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whiterock said:

Sam Lowry said:

whiterock said:

Sam Lowry said:

whiterock said:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Everyone else isn't responsible. It's the US that's responsible for actively goading them to fight.
It's almost like history of American inspired aggression started in 1776, before which time there was nothing but sweetness and lightness between Russians and Sami, Swedes, Finns, Balts, Poles, Slovaks, Hungarians, Romanians, Moldovans, Bulgarians, Ottomans, Georgians, Armenians, Kipchaks, Pechenegs, Cossacks, Tatars, Chechens Ukrainians, Belorussians, Khazars, Mongols, Iranians, Arabs, Khazaks, a half-dozen lesser Turkic tribes, %A0etc....... %A0(just going around the clock from memory....might have missed a few). %A0 %A0

Just curious. %A0 Did we "goad" the Earl of Cardigan to charge those guns at Balaclava? %A0Did we "goad" those Polish officers to their death in the Katyn Forest? %A0Did we.....(need I go on here?)



No, we didn't. And more importantly, we didn't have the arrogance to look at that history and think we could change it. Somehow we managed to build a great America anyway.
Aw, Sam. Our Founders did exactly that - they looked at history and changed it, offering an entirely new form of social contract that has inspired nations for centuries.


Observe good faith and justice toward all nations. Cultivate peace and harmony with all. Religion and morality enjoin this conduct. And can it be that good policy does not equally enjoin it? It will be worthy of a free, enlightened, and at no distant period a great nation to give to mankind the magnanimous and too novel example of a people always guided by an exalted justice and benevolence. Who can doubt that in the course of time and things the fruits of such a plan would richly repay any temporary advantages which might be lost by a steady adherence to it? Can it be that Providence has not connected the permanent felicity of a nation with its virtue? The experiment, at least, is recommended by every sentiment which ennobles human nature. Alas! is it rendered impossible by its vices?

In the execution of such a plan nothing is more essential than that permanent, inveterate antipathies against particular nations and passionate attachments for others should be excluded, and that in place of them just and amicable feelings toward all should be cultivated. The nation which indulges toward another an habitual hatred or an habitual fondness is in some degree a slave. It is a slave to its animosity or to its affection, either of which is sufficient to lead it astray from its duty and its interest. Antipathy in one nation against another disposes each more readily to offer insult and injury, to lay hold of slight causes of umbrage, and to be haughty and intractable when accidental or trifling occasions of dispute occur.

Hence frequent collisions, obstinate, envenomed, and bloody contests. The nation prompted by ill will and resentment sometimes impels to war the government contrary to the best calculations of policy. The government sometimes participates in the national propensity, and adopts through passion what reason would reject. At other times it makes the animosity of the nation subservient to projects of hostility, instigated by pride, ambition, and other sinister and pernicious motives. The peace often, sometimes perhaps the liberty, of nations has been the victim.

So, likewise, a passionate attachment of one nation for another produces a variety of evils. Sympathy for the favorite nation, facilitating the illusion of an imaginary common interest in cases where no real common interest exists, and infusing into one the enmities of the other, betrays the former into a participation in the quarrels and wars of the latter without adequate inducement or justification. It leads also to concessions to the favorite nation of privileges denied to others, which is apt doubly to injure the nation making the concessions by unnecessarily parting with what ought to have been retained, and by exciting jealousy, ill will, and a disposition to retaliate in the parties from whom equal privileges are withheld; and it gives to ambitious, corrupted, or deluded citizens (who devote themselves to the favorite nation) facility to betray or sacrifice the interests of their own country without odium, sometimes even with popularity, gilding with the appearances of a virtuous sense of obligation, a commendable deference for public opinion, or a laudable zeal for public good the base or foolish compliances of ambition, corruption, or infatuation.

As avenues to foreign influence in innumerable ways, such attachments are particularly alarming to the truly enlightened and independent patriot. How many opportunities do they afford to tamper with domestic factions, to practice the arts of seduction, to mislead public opinion, to influence or awe the public councils! Such an attachment of a small or weak toward a great and powerful nation dooms the former to be the satellite of the latter. Against the insidious wiles of foreign influence (I conjure you to believe me, fellow-citizens) the jealousy of a free people ought to be constantly awake, since history and experience prove that foreign influence is one of the most baneful foes of republican government. But that jealousy, to be useful, must be impartial, else it becomes the instrument of the very influence to be avoided, instead of a defense against it. Excessive partiality for one foreign nation and excessive dislike of another cause those whom they actuate to see danger only on one side, and serve to veil and even second the arts of influence on the other. Real patriots who may resist the intrigues of the favorite are liable to become suspected and odious, while its tools and dupes usurp the applause and confidence of the people to surrender their interests.

The great rule of conduct for us in regard to foreign nations is, in extending our commercial relations to have with them as little political connection as possible. So far as we have already formed engagements let them be fulfilled with perfect good faith. Here let us stop.

Europe has a set of primary interests which to us have none or a very remote relation. Hence she must be engaged in frequent controversies, the causes of which are essentially foreign to our concerns. Hence, therefore, it must be unwise in us to implicate ourselves by artificial ties in the ordinary vicissitudes of her politics or the ordinary combinations and collisions of her friendships or enmities.

Our detached and distant situation invites and enables us to pursue a different course. If we remain one people, under an efficient government, the period is not far off when we may defy material injury from external annoyance; when we may take such an attitude as will cause the neutrality we may at any time resolve upon to be scrupulously respected; when belligerent nations, under the impossibility of making acquisitions upon us, will not lightly hazard the giving us provocation; when we may choose peace or war, as our interest, guided by justice, shall counsel.

Why forego the advantages of so peculiar a situation? Why quit our own to stand upon foreign ground? Why, by interweaving our destiny with that of any part of Europe, entangle our peace and prosperity in the toils of European ambition, rivalship, interest, humor, or caprice?

It is our true policy to steer clear of permanent alliances with any portion of the foreign world, so far, I mean, as we are now at liberty to do it; for let me not be understood as capable of patronizing infidelity to existing engagements. I hold the maxim no less applicable to public than to private affairs that honesty is always the best policy. I repeat, therefore, let those engagements be observed in their genuine sense. But in my opinion it is unnecessary and would be unwise to extend them.

Taking care always to keep ourselves by suitable establishments on a respectable defensive posture, we may safely trust to temporary alliances for extraordinary emergencies.

Harmony, liberal intercourse with all nations are recommended by policy, humanity, and interest. But even our commercial policy should hold an equal and impartial hand, neither seeking nor granting exclusive favors or preferences; consulting the natural course of things; diffusing and diversifying by gentle means the streams of commerce, but forcing nothing; establishing with powers so disposed, in order to give trade a stable course, to define the rights of our merchants, and to enable the Government to support them, conventional rules of intercourse, the best that present circumstances and mutual opinion will permit, but temporary and liable to be from time to time abandoned or varied as experience and circumstances shall dictate; constantly keeping in view that it is folly in one nation to look for disinterested favors from another; that it must pay with a portion of its independence for whatever it may accept under that character; that by such acceptance it may place itself in the condition of having given equivalents for nominal favors, and yet of being reproached with ingratitude for not giving more. There can be no greater error than to expect or calculate upon real favors from nation to nation. It is an illusion which experience must cure, which a just pride ought to discard.

George Washington
I found that part in bold to be particularly amusing, as you are indeed demanding the Ukrainians to surrender their interests so that you may....what?.....exactly what is the gain, other than to Russia, from the policy you propose?

Most pointedly, Washington's Warning simply does not fit the dynamic. This policy exists within the context of post-Cold War policy toward Russia, which has fit within Washington's recommendations on unstable alliances. On the particulars of Ukraine, we've had no formal alliance of any substance with them in our history. In the last 12 months, we have sold them a modest amount arms and ammunition for use not to invade others but to defend their Republic from an invasion by an autocratic power. So there is, quite patently, no evidence of either momentary infatuation or long-term attachment. Neither does supporting Ukraine risk dragging us into entanglements that threaten escalation. Our policy is by any measure squarely within the warnings issued by Washington, rooted in self-interest. On not a single plank of alleged benefit are the interests of the American people enhanced by appeasing Russian desires for hegemony over Central Europe. Quite the opposite. Helping like-minded peoples to defend their own self-governing Republic is a policy simultaneously principled and pragmatic, a rarer instance where the dynamics of morals and markets align.

I do have to hand it to you, though. Using Washington's Farewell Address to beg the question on Russian Appeasement is an irony not at all sublime, but rather amplified to garishness by the sheer audacity of the effort.

I'm not demanding anything of Ukraine. But if you honestly believe our post-Cold War policy has followed Washington's recommendation of good faith, justice, peace, and harmony, you've perverted the meaning of those words beyond all recognition. In truth this is a textbook case of inveterate antipathy that's long outlived its usefulness to anyone except the most corrupt elements of our ruling class (and our client's).
into what post-cold war alliance have we entered?
have there not been sea changes in some of our historic alliances over the last 20 years?
can you not see at least one ischemic "180 degrees" foreign policy change?
can you not see another gradual evolution in a strategic relationship spanning several decades to nearly the same degree?

evidence of your refutation is everywhere, man.
Don't try to avoid Washington's argument by narrowing it unduly. As this war demonstrates, it is quite easy for foreign entanglements to influence policy without formal alliances.
Sam Lowry
How long do you want to ignore this user?
whiterock said:

Redbrickbear said:

whiterock said:

Sam Lowry said:

whiterock said:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Everyone else isn't responsible. It's the US that's responsible for actively goading them to fight.
It's almost like history of American inspired aggression started in 1776, before which time there was nothing but sweetness and lightness between Russians and Sami, Swedes, Finns, Balts, Poles, Slovaks, Hungarians, Romanians, Moldovans, Bulgarians, Ottomans, Georgians, Armenians, Kipchaks, Pechenegs, Cossacks, Tatars, Chechens Ukrainians, Belorussians, Khazars, Mongols, Iranians, Arabs, Khazaks, a half-dozen lesser Turkic tribes, %A0etc....... %A0(just going around the clock from memory....might have missed a few). %A0 %A0

Just curious. %A0 Did we "goad" the Earl of Cardigan to charge those guns at Balaclava? %A0Did we "goad" those Polish officers to their death in the Katyn Forest? %A0Did we.....(need I go on here?)



No, we didn't. And more importantly, we didn't have the arrogance to look at that history and think we could change it. Somehow we managed to build a great America anyway.
Aw, Sam. Our Founders did exactly that - they looked at history and changed it, offering an entirely new form of social contract that has inspired nations for centuries.


Observe good faith and justice toward all nations. Cultivate peace and harmony with all. Religion and morality enjoin this conduct. And can it be that good policy does not equally enjoin it? It will be worthy of a free, enlightened, and at no distant period a great nation to give to mankind the magnanimous and too novel example of a people always guided by an exalted justice and benevolence. Who can doubt that in the course of time and things the fruits of such a plan would richly repay any temporary advantages which might be lost by a steady adherence to it? Can it be that Providence has not connected the permanent felicity of a nation with its virtue? The experiment, at least, is recommended by every sentiment which ennobles human nature. Alas! is it rendered impossible by its vices?

In the execution of such a plan nothing is more essential than that permanent, inveterate antipathies against particular nations and passionate attachments for others should be excluded, and that in place of them just and amicable feelings toward all should be cultivated. The nation which indulges toward another an habitual hatred or an habitual fondness is in some degree a slave. It is a slave to its animosity or to its affection, either of which is sufficient to lead it astray from its duty and its interest. Antipathy in one nation against another disposes each more readily to offer insult and injury, to lay hold of slight causes of umbrage, and to be haughty and intractable when accidental or trifling occasions of dispute occur.

Hence frequent collisions, obstinate, envenomed, and bloody contests. The nation prompted by ill will and resentment sometimes impels to war the government contrary to the best calculations of policy. The government sometimes participates in the national propensity, and adopts through passion what reason would reject. At other times it makes the animosity of the nation subservient to projects of hostility, instigated by pride, ambition, and other sinister and pernicious motives. The peace often, sometimes perhaps the liberty, of nations has been the victim.

So, likewise, a passionate attachment of one nation for another produces a variety of evils. Sympathy for the favorite nation, facilitating the illusion of an imaginary common interest in cases where no real common interest exists, and infusing into one the enmities of the other, betrays the former into a participation in the quarrels and wars of the latter without adequate inducement or justification. It leads also to concessions to the favorite nation of privileges denied to others, which is apt doubly to injure the nation making the concessions by unnecessarily parting with what ought to have been retained, and by exciting jealousy, ill will, and a disposition to retaliate in the parties from whom equal privileges are withheld; and it gives to ambitious, corrupted, or deluded citizens (who devote themselves to the favorite nation) facility to betray or sacrifice the interests of their own country without odium, sometimes even with popularity, gilding with the appearances of a virtuous sense of obligation, a commendable deference for public opinion, or a laudable zeal for public good the base or foolish compliances of ambition, corruption, or infatuation.

As avenues to foreign influence in innumerable ways, such attachments are particularly alarming to the truly enlightened and independent patriot. How many opportunities do they afford to tamper with domestic factions, to practice the arts of seduction, to mislead public opinion, to influence or awe the public councils! Such an attachment of a small or weak toward a great and powerful nation dooms the former to be the satellite of the latter. Against the insidious wiles of foreign influence (I conjure you to believe me, fellow-citizens) the jealousy of a free people ought to be constantly awake, since history and experience prove that foreign influence is one of the most baneful foes of republican government. But that jealousy, to be useful, must be impartial, else it becomes the instrument of the very influence to be avoided, instead of a defense against it. Excessive partiality for one foreign nation and excessive dislike of another cause those whom they actuate to see danger only on one side, and serve to veil and even second the arts of influence on the other. Real patriots who may resist the intrigues of the favorite are liable to become suspected and odious, while its tools and dupes usurp the applause and confidence of the people to surrender their interests.

The great rule of conduct for us in regard to foreign nations is, in extending our commercial relations to have with them as little political connection as possible. So far as we have already formed engagements let them be fulfilled with perfect good faith. Here let us stop.

Europe has a set of primary interests which to us have none or a very remote relation. Hence she must be engaged in frequent controversies, the causes of which are essentially foreign to our concerns. Hence, therefore, it must be unwise in us to implicate ourselves by artificial ties in the ordinary vicissitudes of her politics or the ordinary combinations and collisions of her friendships or enmities.

Our detached and distant situation invites and enables us to pursue a different course. If we remain one people, under an efficient government, the period is not far off when we may defy material injury from external annoyance; when we may take such an attitude as will cause the neutrality we may at any time resolve upon to be scrupulously respected; when belligerent nations, under the impossibility of making acquisitions upon us, will not lightly hazard the giving us provocation; when we may choose peace or war, as our interest, guided by justice, shall counsel.

Why forego the advantages of so peculiar a situation? Why quit our own to stand upon foreign ground? Why, by interweaving our destiny with that of any part of Europe, entangle our peace and prosperity in the toils of European ambition, rivalship, interest, humor, or caprice?

It is our true policy to steer clear of permanent alliances with any portion of the foreign world, so far, I mean, as we are now at liberty to do it; for let me not be understood as capable of patronizing infidelity to existing engagements. I hold the maxim no less applicable to public than to private affairs that honesty is always the best policy. I repeat, therefore, let those engagements be observed in their genuine sense. But in my opinion it is unnecessary and would be unwise to extend them.

Taking care always to keep ourselves by suitable establishments on a respectable defensive posture, we may safely trust to temporary alliances for extraordinary emergencies.

Harmony, liberal intercourse with all nations are recommended by policy, humanity, and interest. But even our commercial policy should hold an equal and impartial hand, neither seeking nor granting exclusive favors or preferences; consulting the natural course of things; diffusing and diversifying by gentle means the streams of commerce, but forcing nothing; establishing with powers so disposed, in order to give trade a stable course, to define the rights of our merchants, and to enable the Government to support them, conventional rules of intercourse, the best that present circumstances and mutual opinion will permit, but temporary and liable to be from time to time abandoned or varied as experience and circumstances shall dictate; constantly keeping in view that it is folly in one nation to look for disinterested favors from another; that it must pay with a portion of its independence for whatever it may accept under that character; that by such acceptance it may place itself in the condition of having given equivalents for nominal favors, and yet of being reproached with ingratitude for not giving more. There can be no greater error than to expect or calculate upon real favors from nation to nation. It is an illusion which experience must cure, which a just pride ought to discard.

George Washington
I found that part in bold to be particularly amusing, as you are indeed demanding the Ukrainians to surrender their interests so that you may....what?.....exactly what is the gain, other than to Russia, from the policy you propose?


It does Ukraine no good to continue to fight a bloody and costly war trying to get back two areas (Donbas and Crimea) that are filled with ethnic Russians and who Ukraine can not reconquer.

The long term interest of Ukrainians is to rebuild their economy and country...and become a part of the rich trading bloc know as the EU.

And one day NATO.

None of that is going to happen while they are in an active war.
The critics of US support for Ukraine never, ever address that question. How are American interests enhanced by letting Russia nibble off pieces of whatever sovereign nations it decides is "in their sphere of interests?"
We serve our interests first of all by not lying to ourselves and each other about Russian intentions. We're told daily that Putin has declared his enmity to the West and his intention to conquer Europe. Yet any reading of his actual words shows the opposite. There's no end of ways in which we benefit from peace. We avoid the cost of the immediate conflict and the risks of a wider one. We avoid humiliating ourselves when our grandiose designs fail, as they consistently do. We avoid alienating our allies and provoking our enemies. Europe is enriched with energy and other benefits of trade with its neighbor. We're free to attend to our own problems, like debt, immigration, health care, infrastructure…the list goes on.
FLBear5630
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Redbrickbear said:

RMF5630 said:

Redbrickbear said:

RMF5630 said:

Redbrickbear said:

HuMcK said:

I think you mistake cooperation for capitulation. We largely did try cooperation, we let them have the pieces of Ukraine they took in 2014 and left their energy industry alone. We flat out ignored Chechnya and Georgia getting swallowed up, not to mention brazen assassinations across western Europe. Three successive Presidents tried to reach out and work with Putin. Our next SecState after 2014 was an Exxon exec who had a Russian medal of friendship pinned on his chest by Putin himself. Of course Russia worked hard to help that SecState's boss get elected, so maybe that (and pretty much ignoring what they did in 2016) was just reciprocity.

What you want is for us (and Ukraine, then whoever else) to just lie down and take it, which frankly is incomprehensible to me. If their strategy works for them, why would they stop using it?


How could Russia "swallow up" Chechnya when it's always legally been apart of the Russian Federation.

Are you under the impression that Chechnya was an independent nation?


"n 9 April 1991, shortly before the collapse of the Soviet Union, the Supreme Council of Georgia declared independence after a referendum held on 31 March. Georgia was the first non-Baltic republic of the Soviet Union to officially declare independence."

You continually act like 1991 never happened, let alone1921 when the Soviets took over! The Putin apologist keep bringing up 1880's and earlier when in the 1990s Georgia was independent. Russia was wrong in Georgia and Chechnya just like in Ukraine now. Using you logic, we should be a British Colony!
Georgia and Chechnya are two completely different places.

So not sure why are seeming to conflate them.

Georgia was an independent Kingdom all the way back in the year 1008 AD

And had the status of a full Soviet Republic during the USSR.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgian_Soviet_Socialist_Republic

It declared its independence in 1991 and Russia did not try to stop it.

Chechnya was never a full kingdom and has been apart of Russia proper since the 1800s after the Russians conquered the Islamic mountain tribes of that area.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_conquest_of_Chechnya_and_Dagestan

These two places have very different histories.

"On November 1, 1991, Head of the All-National Congress of the Chechen People, Dzokhar Dudayev issued a Decree of Sovereignty of the Chechen Republic[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_of_Sovereignty_of_the_Chechen_Republic#cite_note-Galina_M.-1][1][/url] (Russian: o ).[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_of_Sovereignty_of_the_Chechen_Republic#cite_note-Stanford_Libraries-2][2][/url] Between 1991 and 2000 Chechnya was de facto an independent state."

I don't post stuff I don't research first. They declared sovereignty in 1991, when the other Soviet Block nations declared Sovereignty. Just because you don't recognize it doesn't mean it didn't happen. So, you are wrong they did become independent until the Russian boot was put back on their throat.

The two areas have VERY different histories, just like ALL the Soviet/Russian satellites do. BUT, they all have one thing in common, RUSSIAN AGGRESSION, INVASION AND SUBJEGATION. You seem to be good with that...


If you want to defend the right of Chechnya to break off from the Russian Federation and to create an Islamic emirate...then fine go ahead.

I have no stake in the question itself.

But as a historic reality the region of Chechnya was never a sovereign Kingdom like Georgia and never was a full Soviet Republic within the USSR.

It was always part of Russia. (in whatever form.. Imperial Russia, Soviet Russia, modern Russian Federation)

All the countries that got their independence in 1991 had been full Soviet Republics.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republics_of_the_Soviet_Union
It was a republic and declared independence in 91. Russia brutally put down that independence in 94/95 before recognized by the World. Chechnya was invaded by Russia in 1921 and forced into Russia, again. This has happened multiple times in history. Sure doesn't look like Chechnya considers itself Russian. But, you are technically correct, in 1991 they declared independence but it was not recognized before Russia invaded again.

Ok, is this better:

The two areas have VERY different histories, just like ALL the Soviet/Russian satellites or republics do. BUT, they all have one thing in common, RUSSIAN AGGRESSION, INVASION AND SUBJEGATION.





Redbrickbear
How long do you want to ignore this user?
RMF5630 said:

Redbrickbear said:

RMF5630 said:

Redbrickbear said:

RMF5630 said:

Redbrickbear said:

HuMcK said:

I think you mistake cooperation for capitulation. We largely did try cooperation, we let them have the pieces of Ukraine they took in 2014 and left their energy industry alone. We flat out ignored Chechnya and Georgia getting swallowed up, not to mention brazen assassinations across western Europe. Three successive Presidents tried to reach out and work with Putin. Our next SecState after 2014 was an Exxon exec who had a Russian medal of friendship pinned on his chest by Putin himself. Of course Russia worked hard to help that SecState's boss get elected, so maybe that (and pretty much ignoring what they did in 2016) was just reciprocity.

What you want is for us (and Ukraine, then whoever else) to just lie down and take it, which frankly is incomprehensible to me. If their strategy works for them, why would they stop using it?


How could Russia "swallow up" Chechnya when it's always legally been apart of the Russian Federation.

Are you under the impression that Chechnya was an independent nation?


"n 9 April 1991, shortly before the collapse of the Soviet Union, the Supreme Council of Georgia declared independence after a referendum held on 31 March. Georgia was the first non-Baltic republic of the Soviet Union to officially declare independence."

You continually act like 1991 never happened, let alone1921 when the Soviets took over! The Putin apologist keep bringing up 1880's and earlier when in the 1990s Georgia was independent. Russia was wrong in Georgia and Chechnya just like in Ukraine now. Using you logic, we should be a British Colony!
Georgia and Chechnya are two completely different places.

So not sure why are seeming to conflate them.

Georgia was an independent Kingdom all the way back in the year 1008 AD

And had the status of a full Soviet Republic during the USSR.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgian_Soviet_Socialist_Republic

It declared its independence in 1991 and Russia did not try to stop it.

Chechnya was never a full kingdom and has been apart of Russia proper since the 1800s after the Russians conquered the Islamic mountain tribes of that area.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_conquest_of_Chechnya_and_Dagestan

These two places have very different histories.

"On November 1, 1991, Head of the All-National Congress of the Chechen People, Dzokhar Dudayev issued a Decree of Sovereignty of the Chechen Republic[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_of_Sovereignty_of_the_Chechen_Republic#cite_note-Galina_M.-1][1][/url] (Russian: o ).[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_of_Sovereignty_of_the_Chechen_Republic#cite_note-Stanford_Libraries-2][2][/url] Between 1991 and 2000 Chechnya was de facto an independent state."

I don't post stuff I don't research first. They declared sovereignty in 1991, when the other Soviet Block nations declared Sovereignty. Just because you don't recognize it doesn't mean it didn't happen. So, you are wrong they did become independent until the Russian boot was put back on their throat.

The two areas have VERY different histories, just like ALL the Soviet/Russian satellites do. BUT, they all have one thing in common, RUSSIAN AGGRESSION, INVASION AND SUBJEGATION. You seem to be good with that...


If you want to defend the right of Chechnya to break off from the Russian Federation and to create an Islamic emirate...then fine go ahead.

I have no stake in the question itself.

But as a historic reality the region of Chechnya was never a sovereign Kingdom like Georgia and never was a full Soviet Republic within the USSR.

It was always part of Russia. (in whatever form.. Imperial Russia, Soviet Russia, modern Russian Federation)

All the countries that got their independence in 1991 had been full Soviet Republics.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republics_of_the_Soviet_Union
It was a republic and declared independence in 91. Russia brutally put down that independence in 94/95 before recognized by the World. Chechnya was invaded by Russia in 1921 and forced into Russia, again. This has happened multiple times in history. Sure doesn't look like Chechnya considers itself Russian. But, you are technically correct, in 1991 they declared independence but it was not recognized before Russia invaded again.

Ok, is this better:

The two areas have VERY different histories, just like ALL the Soviet/Russian satellites or republics do. BUT, they all have one thing in common, RUSSIAN AGGRESSION, INVASION AND SUBJEGATION.






The Bolsheviks of the Soviet Union invaded in 1921.

Russia did not invade anything. So lets get that straight.

And again...Chechnya has never been an independent country...not in 1921 or at any other time.

It had been part of the Russian empire and then after that the USSR remained in control.

And before Russia took the area it was under the overlordship of Persia.

A short lived (non-internationally recognized state) does not make Chechnya anymore real than any other break away region that calls itself a country.

If Chechnya was a independent country in 1921 then Luhansk is an independent country today.
Redbrickbear
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Quote:

President Volodymyr Zelensky, a former television comedian. But he has turned out to be a Churchillian figure worthy of the United States' unstinting support. In truth, even if Ukraine weren't a liberal democracy, it would still make sense for Washington to back it in order to uphold the principle that international borders cannot be changed by force. (That was why Washington was right to defend Kuwait in the Gulf War and South Korea in the Korean War.) But that Ukraine is a liberal democracy makes it easier to rally to its side.
[I don't know if he is trolling or being obtuse. The claim that Ukraine -a country that forcibly eradicated a whole second language among a section of the population; where Dostoyevsky and Tolstoy are "decolonized" because they are Russian; where a paramilitary affiliated with the government wears a Schutzstaffel armband; where the government lies about a stray missile strike from its forces to a NATO country for over 48 hours, in order to drag NATO to a war with Russia; and where defectors and "traitors" are tied up to poles in ritualistic humiliation is a "liberal democracy" will give a historian a serious bout of involuntary emesis. The idea that we fight to uphold the norms where the principles of non-violation of international borders are sacrosanct will be a dark joke to Libyans and Syrians. ]


https://www.theamericanconservative.com/das-boot/
Sam Lowry
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Redbrickbear said:

RMF5630 said:

Redbrickbear said:

RMF5630 said:

Redbrickbear said:

RMF5630 said:

Redbrickbear said:

HuMcK said:

I think you mistake cooperation for capitulation. We largely did try cooperation, we let them have the pieces of Ukraine they took in 2014 and left their energy industry alone. We flat out ignored Chechnya and Georgia getting swallowed up, not to mention brazen assassinations across western Europe. Three successive Presidents tried to reach out and work with Putin. Our next SecState after 2014 was an Exxon exec who had a Russian medal of friendship pinned on his chest by Putin himself. Of course Russia worked hard to help that SecState's boss get elected, so maybe that (and pretty much ignoring what they did in 2016) was just reciprocity.

What you want is for us (and Ukraine, then whoever else) to just lie down and take it, which frankly is incomprehensible to me. If their strategy works for them, why would they stop using it?


How could Russia "swallow up" Chechnya when it's always legally been apart of the Russian Federation.

Are you under the impression that Chechnya was an independent nation?


"n 9 April 1991, shortly before the collapse of the Soviet Union, the Supreme Council of Georgia declared independence after a referendum held on 31 March. Georgia was the first non-Baltic republic of the Soviet Union to officially declare independence."

You continually act like 1991 never happened, let alone1921 when the Soviets took over! The Putin apologist keep bringing up 1880's and earlier when in the 1990s Georgia was independent. Russia was wrong in Georgia and Chechnya just like in Ukraine now. Using you logic, we should be a British Colony!
Georgia and Chechnya are two completely different places.

So not sure why are seeming to conflate them.

Georgia was an independent Kingdom all the way back in the year 1008 AD

And had the status of a full Soviet Republic during the USSR.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgian_Soviet_Socialist_Republic

It declared its independence in 1991 and Russia did not try to stop it.

Chechnya was never a full kingdom and has been apart of Russia proper since the 1800s after the Russians conquered the Islamic mountain tribes of that area.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_conquest_of_Chechnya_and_Dagestan

These two places have very different histories.

"On November 1, 1991, Head of the All-National Congress of the Chechen People, Dzokhar Dudayev issued a Decree of Sovereignty of the Chechen Republic[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_of_Sovereignty_of_the_Chechen_Republic#cite_note-Galina_M.-1][1][/url] (Russian: o ).[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_of_Sovereignty_of_the_Chechen_Republic#cite_note-Stanford_Libraries-2][2][/url] Between 1991 and 2000 Chechnya was de facto an independent state."

I don't post stuff I don't research first. They declared sovereignty in 1991, when the other Soviet Block nations declared Sovereignty. Just because you don't recognize it doesn't mean it didn't happen. So, you are wrong they did become independent until the Russian boot was put back on their throat.

The two areas have VERY different histories, just like ALL the Soviet/Russian satellites do. BUT, they all have one thing in common, RUSSIAN AGGRESSION, INVASION AND SUBJEGATION. You seem to be good with that...


If you want to defend the right of Chechnya to break off from the Russian Federation and to create an Islamic emirate...then fine go ahead.

I have no stake in the question itself.

But as a historic reality the region of Chechnya was never a sovereign Kingdom like Georgia and never was a full Soviet Republic within the USSR.

It was always part of Russia. (in whatever form.. Imperial Russia, Soviet Russia, modern Russian Federation)

All the countries that got their independence in 1991 had been full Soviet Republics.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republics_of_the_Soviet_Union
It was a republic and declared independence in 91. Russia brutally put down that independence in 94/95 before recognized by the World. Chechnya was invaded by Russia in 1921 and forced into Russia, again. This has happened multiple times in history. Sure doesn't look like Chechnya considers itself Russian. But, you are technically correct, in 1991 they declared independence but it was not recognized before Russia invaded again.

Ok, is this better:

The two areas have VERY different histories, just like ALL the Soviet/Russian satellites or republics do. BUT, they all have one thing in common, RUSSIAN AGGRESSION, INVASION AND SUBJEGATION.






The Bolsheviks of the Soviet Union invaded in 1921.

Russia did not invade anything. So lets get that straight.

And again...Chechnya has never been an independent country...not in 1921 or at any other time.

It had been part of the Russian empire and then after that the USSR remained in control.

And before Russia took the area it was under the overlordship of Persia.

A short lived (non-internationally recognized state) does not make Chechnya anymore real than any other break away region that calls itself a country.

If Chechnya was an independent country in 1921 then Luhansk is an independent country today.
No no no no no no no…only Russian territories are independent! Not Ukrainian ones.
Redbrickbear
How long do you want to ignore this user?
FLBear5630
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Redbrickbear said:

RMF5630 said:

Redbrickbear said:

RMF5630 said:

Redbrickbear said:

RMF5630 said:

Redbrickbear said:

HuMcK said:

I think you mistake cooperation for capitulation. We largely did try cooperation, we let them have the pieces of Ukraine they took in 2014 and left their energy industry alone. We flat out ignored Chechnya and Georgia getting swallowed up, not to mention brazen assassinations across western Europe. Three successive Presidents tried to reach out and work with Putin. Our next SecState after 2014 was an Exxon exec who had a Russian medal of friendship pinned on his chest by Putin himself. Of course Russia worked hard to help that SecState's boss get elected, so maybe that (and pretty much ignoring what they did in 2016) was just reciprocity.

What you want is for us (and Ukraine, then whoever else) to just lie down and take it, which frankly is incomprehensible to me. If their strategy works for them, why would they stop using it?


How could Russia "swallow up" Chechnya when it's always legally been apart of the Russian Federation.

Are you under the impression that Chechnya was an independent nation?


"n 9 April 1991, shortly before the collapse of the Soviet Union, the Supreme Council of Georgia declared independence after a referendum held on 31 March. Georgia was the first non-Baltic republic of the Soviet Union to officially declare independence."

You continually act like 1991 never happened, let alone1921 when the Soviets took over! The Putin apologist keep bringing up 1880's and earlier when in the 1990s Georgia was independent. Russia was wrong in Georgia and Chechnya just like in Ukraine now. Using you logic, we should be a British Colony!
Georgia and Chechnya are two completely different places.

So not sure why are seeming to conflate them.

Georgia was an independent Kingdom all the way back in the year 1008 AD

And had the status of a full Soviet Republic during the USSR.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgian_Soviet_Socialist_Republic

It declared its independence in 1991 and Russia did not try to stop it.

Chechnya was never a full kingdom and has been apart of Russia proper since the 1800s after the Russians conquered the Islamic mountain tribes of that area.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_conquest_of_Chechnya_and_Dagestan

These two places have very different histories.

"On November 1, 1991, Head of the All-National Congress of the Chechen People, Dzokhar Dudayev issued a Decree of Sovereignty of the Chechen Republic[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_of_Sovereignty_of_the_Chechen_Republic#cite_note-Galina_M.-1][1][/url] (Russian: o ).[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_of_Sovereignty_of_the_Chechen_Republic#cite_note-Stanford_Libraries-2][2][/url] Between 1991 and 2000 Chechnya was de facto an independent state."

I don't post stuff I don't research first. They declared sovereignty in 1991, when the other Soviet Block nations declared Sovereignty. Just because you don't recognize it doesn't mean it didn't happen. So, you are wrong they did become independent until the Russian boot was put back on their throat.

The two areas have VERY different histories, just like ALL the Soviet/Russian satellites do. BUT, they all have one thing in common, RUSSIAN AGGRESSION, INVASION AND SUBJEGATION. You seem to be good with that...


If you want to defend the right of Chechnya to break off from the Russian Federation and to create an Islamic emirate...then fine go ahead.

I have no stake in the question itself.

But as a historic reality the region of Chechnya was never a sovereign Kingdom like Georgia and never was a full Soviet Republic within the USSR.

It was always part of Russia. (in whatever form.. Imperial Russia, Soviet Russia, modern Russian Federation)

All the countries that got their independence in 1991 had been full Soviet Republics.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republics_of_the_Soviet_Union
It was a republic and declared independence in 91. Russia brutally put down that independence in 94/95 before recognized by the World. Chechnya was invaded by Russia in 1921 and forced into Russia, again. This has happened multiple times in history. Sure doesn't look like Chechnya considers itself Russian. But, you are technically correct, in 1991 they declared independence but it was not recognized before Russia invaded again.

Ok, is this better:

The two areas have VERY different histories, just like ALL the Soviet/Russian satellites or republics do. BUT, they all have one thing in common, RUSSIAN AGGRESSION, INVASION AND SUBJEGATION.






The Bolsheviks of the Soviet Union invaded in 1921.

Russia did not invade anything. So lets get that straight.

And again...Chechnya has never been an independent country...not in 1921 or at any other time.

It had been part of the Russian empire and then after that the USSR remained in control.

And before Russia took the area it was under the overlordship of Persia.

A short lived (non-internationally recognized state) does not make Chechnya anymore real than any other break away region that calls itself a country.

If Chechnya was a independent country in 1921 then Luhansk is an independent country today.
The history books and people living there disagree with you.

First off, the Caucaus didn't have the same definition of nation even up to the 1850's. Chechnya/Caucauses have never considered themselves Russian and have been fighting for over a millennia to get free. Anytime it has broken away, as usual, the big country to the north, call it Rus, Russia, Soviet Union, Russian Federation has one response, throw Cossacks, cavalry, infantry or political troops at it. You can play all the semantics and word-play you want, the bottomline is that the Land Mass now run by Putin took this land as far back as the 15th and 16th Century and has had the same response to individual freedom and independence: force. Chechnya has declared independence at least twice since the 1920's. As soon as Putin is gone, Chechnya will go for independence again...
Redbrickbear
How long do you want to ignore this user?
RMF5630 said:

Redbrickbear said:

RMF5630 said:

Redbrickbear said:

RMF5630 said:

Redbrickbear said:

RMF5630 said:

Redbrickbear said:

HuMcK said:

I think you mistake cooperation for capitulation. We largely did try cooperation, we let them have the pieces of Ukraine they took in 2014 and left their energy industry alone. We flat out ignored Chechnya and Georgia getting swallowed up, not to mention brazen assassinations across western Europe. Three successive Presidents tried to reach out and work with Putin. Our next SecState after 2014 was an Exxon exec who had a Russian medal of friendship pinned on his chest by Putin himself. Of course Russia worked hard to help that SecState's boss get elected, so maybe that (and pretty much ignoring what they did in 2016) was just reciprocity.

What you want is for us (and Ukraine, then whoever else) to just lie down and take it, which frankly is incomprehensible to me. If their strategy works for them, why would they stop using it?


How could Russia "swallow up" Chechnya when it's always legally been apart of the Russian Federation.

Are you under the impression that Chechnya was an independent nation?


"n 9 April 1991, shortly before the collapse of the Soviet Union, the Supreme Council of Georgia declared independence after a referendum held on 31 March. Georgia was the first non-Baltic republic of the Soviet Union to officially declare independence."

You continually act like 1991 never happened, let alone1921 when the Soviets took over! The Putin apologist keep bringing up 1880's and earlier when in the 1990s Georgia was independent. Russia was wrong in Georgia and Chechnya just like in Ukraine now. Using you logic, we should be a British Colony!
Georgia and Chechnya are two completely different places.

So not sure why are seeming to conflate them.

Georgia was an independent Kingdom all the way back in the year 1008 AD

And had the status of a full Soviet Republic during the USSR.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgian_Soviet_Socialist_Republic

It declared its independence in 1991 and Russia did not try to stop it.

Chechnya was never a full kingdom and has been apart of Russia proper since the 1800s after the Russians conquered the Islamic mountain tribes of that area.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_conquest_of_Chechnya_and_Dagestan

These two places have very different histories.

"On November 1, 1991, Head of the All-National Congress of the Chechen People, Dzokhar Dudayev issued a Decree of Sovereignty of the Chechen Republic[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_of_Sovereignty_of_the_Chechen_Republic#cite_note-Galina_M.-1][1][/url] (Russian: o ).[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_of_Sovereignty_of_the_Chechen_Republic#cite_note-Stanford_Libraries-2][2][/url] Between 1991 and 2000 Chechnya was de facto an independent state."

I don't post stuff I don't research first. They declared sovereignty in 1991, when the other Soviet Block nations declared Sovereignty. Just because you don't recognize it doesn't mean it didn't happen. So, you are wrong they did become independent until the Russian boot was put back on their throat.

The two areas have VERY different histories, just like ALL the Soviet/Russian satellites do. BUT, they all have one thing in common, RUSSIAN AGGRESSION, INVASION AND SUBJEGATION. You seem to be good with that...


If you want to defend the right of Chechnya to break off from the Russian Federation and to create an Islamic emirate...then fine go ahead.

I have no stake in the question itself.

But as a historic reality the region of Chechnya was never a sovereign Kingdom like Georgia and never was a full Soviet Republic within the USSR.

It was always part of Russia. (in whatever form.. Imperial Russia, Soviet Russia, modern Russian Federation)

All the countries that got their independence in 1991 had been full Soviet Republics.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republics_of_the_Soviet_Union
It was a republic and declared independence in 91. Russia brutally put down that independence in 94/95 before recognized by the World. Chechnya was invaded by Russia in 1921 and forced into Russia, again. This has happened multiple times in history. Sure doesn't look like Chechnya considers itself Russian. But, you are technically correct, in 1991 they declared independence but it was not recognized before Russia invaded again.

Ok, is this better:

The two areas have VERY different histories, just like ALL the Soviet/Russian satellites or republics do. BUT, they all have one thing in common, RUSSIAN AGGRESSION, INVASION AND SUBJEGATION.






The Bolsheviks of the Soviet Union invaded in 1921.

Russia did not invade anything. So lets get that straight.

And again...Chechnya has never been an independent country...not in 1921 or at any other time.

It had been part of the Russian empire and then after that the USSR remained in control.

And before Russia took the area it was under the overlordship of Persia.

A short lived (non-internationally recognized state) does not make Chechnya anymore real than any other break away region that calls itself a country.

If Chechnya was a independent country in 1921 then Luhansk is an independent country today.
The history books and people living there disagree with you.

First off, the Caucaus didn't have the same definition of nation even up to the 1850's. Chechnya/Caucauses have never considered themselves Russian and have been fighting for over a millennia to get free. Anytime it has broken away, as usual, the big country to the north, call it Rus, Russia, Soviet Union, Russian Federation has one response, throw Cossacks, cavalry, infantry or political troops at it. You can play all the semantics and word-play you want, the bottomline is that the Land Mass now run by Putin took this land as far back as the 15th and 16th Century and has had the same response to individual freedom and independence: force. Chechnya has declared independence at least twice since the 1920's. As soon as Putin is gone, Chechnya will go for independence again...
If you are trying to make an argument for Chechnya to be independent...fine.

I have no fundamental problem with Chechnya breaking off from the Russian Federation.

(well except for the fact that Chechnya will probably end up being a violent Islamic theocracy, but still)

After all that is consistent with the actions of the West who helped Kosovo break off from Serbia.

But then you have to grant the same to the people of the Donbas to break off from Ukraine.
trey3216
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Sam Lowry said:

whiterock said:

Redbrickbear said:

whiterock said:

Sam Lowry said:

whiterock said:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Everyone else isn't responsible. It's the US that's responsible for actively goading them to fight.
It's almost like history of American inspired aggression started in 1776, before which time there was nothing but sweetness and lightness between Russians and Sami, Swedes, Finns, Balts, Poles, Slovaks, Hungarians, Romanians, Moldovans, Bulgarians, Ottomans, Georgians, Armenians, Kipchaks, Pechenegs, Cossacks, Tatars, Chechens Ukrainians, Belorussians, Khazars, Mongols, Iranians, Arabs, Khazaks, a half-dozen lesser Turkic tribes, %A0etc....... %A0(just going around the clock from memory....might have missed a few). %A0 %A0

Just curious. %A0 Did we "goad" the Earl of Cardigan to charge those guns at Balaclava? %A0Did we "goad" those Polish officers to their death in the Katyn Forest? %A0Did we.....(need I go on here?)



No, we didn't. And more importantly, we didn't have the arrogance to look at that history and think we could change it. Somehow we managed to build a great America anyway.
Aw, Sam. Our Founders did exactly that - they looked at history and changed it, offering an entirely new form of social contract that has inspired nations for centuries.


Observe good faith and justice toward all nations. Cultivate peace and harmony with all. Religion and morality enjoin this conduct. And can it be that good policy does not equally enjoin it? It will be worthy of a free, enlightened, and at no distant period a great nation to give to mankind the magnanimous and too novel example of a people always guided by an exalted justice and benevolence. Who can doubt that in the course of time and things the fruits of such a plan would richly repay any temporary advantages which might be lost by a steady adherence to it? Can it be that Providence has not connected the permanent felicity of a nation with its virtue? The experiment, at least, is recommended by every sentiment which ennobles human nature. Alas! is it rendered impossible by its vices?

In the execution of such a plan nothing is more essential than that permanent, inveterate antipathies against particular nations and passionate attachments for others should be excluded, and that in place of them just and amicable feelings toward all should be cultivated. The nation which indulges toward another an habitual hatred or an habitual fondness is in some degree a slave. It is a slave to its animosity or to its affection, either of which is sufficient to lead it astray from its duty and its interest. Antipathy in one nation against another disposes each more readily to offer insult and injury, to lay hold of slight causes of umbrage, and to be haughty and intractable when accidental or trifling occasions of dispute occur.

Hence frequent collisions, obstinate, envenomed, and bloody contests. The nation prompted by ill will and resentment sometimes impels to war the government contrary to the best calculations of policy. The government sometimes participates in the national propensity, and adopts through passion what reason would reject. At other times it makes the animosity of the nation subservient to projects of hostility, instigated by pride, ambition, and other sinister and pernicious motives. The peace often, sometimes perhaps the liberty, of nations has been the victim.

So, likewise, a passionate attachment of one nation for another produces a variety of evils. Sympathy for the favorite nation, facilitating the illusion of an imaginary common interest in cases where no real common interest exists, and infusing into one the enmities of the other, betrays the former into a participation in the quarrels and wars of the latter without adequate inducement or justification. It leads also to concessions to the favorite nation of privileges denied to others, which is apt doubly to injure the nation making the concessions by unnecessarily parting with what ought to have been retained, and by exciting jealousy, ill will, and a disposition to retaliate in the parties from whom equal privileges are withheld; and it gives to ambitious, corrupted, or deluded citizens (who devote themselves to the favorite nation) facility to betray or sacrifice the interests of their own country without odium, sometimes even with popularity, gilding with the appearances of a virtuous sense of obligation, a commendable deference for public opinion, or a laudable zeal for public good the base or foolish compliances of ambition, corruption, or infatuation.

As avenues to foreign influence in innumerable ways, such attachments are particularly alarming to the truly enlightened and independent patriot. How many opportunities do they afford to tamper with domestic factions, to practice the arts of seduction, to mislead public opinion, to influence or awe the public councils! Such an attachment of a small or weak toward a great and powerful nation dooms the former to be the satellite of the latter. Against the insidious wiles of foreign influence (I conjure you to believe me, fellow-citizens) the jealousy of a free people ought to be constantly awake, since history and experience prove that foreign influence is one of the most baneful foes of republican government. But that jealousy, to be useful, must be impartial, else it becomes the instrument of the very influence to be avoided, instead of a defense against it. Excessive partiality for one foreign nation and excessive dislike of another cause those whom they actuate to see danger only on one side, and serve to veil and even second the arts of influence on the other. Real patriots who may resist the intrigues of the favorite are liable to become suspected and odious, while its tools and dupes usurp the applause and confidence of the people to surrender their interests.

The great rule of conduct for us in regard to foreign nations is, in extending our commercial relations to have with them as little political connection as possible. So far as we have already formed engagements let them be fulfilled with perfect good faith. Here let us stop.

Europe has a set of primary interests which to us have none or a very remote relation. Hence she must be engaged in frequent controversies, the causes of which are essentially foreign to our concerns. Hence, therefore, it must be unwise in us to implicate ourselves by artificial ties in the ordinary vicissitudes of her politics or the ordinary combinations and collisions of her friendships or enmities.

Our detached and distant situation invites and enables us to pursue a different course. If we remain one people, under an efficient government, the period is not far off when we may defy material injury from external annoyance; when we may take such an attitude as will cause the neutrality we may at any time resolve upon to be scrupulously respected; when belligerent nations, under the impossibility of making acquisitions upon us, will not lightly hazard the giving us provocation; when we may choose peace or war, as our interest, guided by justice, shall counsel.

Why forego the advantages of so peculiar a situation? Why quit our own to stand upon foreign ground? Why, by interweaving our destiny with that of any part of Europe, entangle our peace and prosperity in the toils of European ambition, rivalship, interest, humor, or caprice?

It is our true policy to steer clear of permanent alliances with any portion of the foreign world, so far, I mean, as we are now at liberty to do it; for let me not be understood as capable of patronizing infidelity to existing engagements. I hold the maxim no less applicable to public than to private affairs that honesty is always the best policy. I repeat, therefore, let those engagements be observed in their genuine sense. But in my opinion it is unnecessary and would be unwise to extend them.

Taking care always to keep ourselves by suitable establishments on a respectable defensive posture, we may safely trust to temporary alliances for extraordinary emergencies.

Harmony, liberal intercourse with all nations are recommended by policy, humanity, and interest. But even our commercial policy should hold an equal and impartial hand, neither seeking nor granting exclusive favors or preferences; consulting the natural course of things; diffusing and diversifying by gentle means the streams of commerce, but forcing nothing; establishing with powers so disposed, in order to give trade a stable course, to define the rights of our merchants, and to enable the Government to support them, conventional rules of intercourse, the best that present circumstances and mutual opinion will permit, but temporary and liable to be from time to time abandoned or varied as experience and circumstances shall dictate; constantly keeping in view that it is folly in one nation to look for disinterested favors from another; that it must pay with a portion of its independence for whatever it may accept under that character; that by such acceptance it may place itself in the condition of having given equivalents for nominal favors, and yet of being reproached with ingratitude for not giving more. There can be no greater error than to expect or calculate upon real favors from nation to nation. It is an illusion which experience must cure, which a just pride ought to discard.

George Washington
I found that part in bold to be particularly amusing, as you are indeed demanding the Ukrainians to surrender their interests so that you may....what?.....exactly what is the gain, other than to Russia, from the policy you propose?


It does Ukraine no good to continue to fight a bloody and costly war trying to get back two areas (Donbas and Crimea) that are filled with ethnic Russians and who Ukraine can not reconquer.

The long term interest of Ukrainians is to rebuild their economy and country...and become a part of the rich trading bloc know as the EU.

And one day NATO.

None of that is going to happen while they are in an active war.
The critics of US support for Ukraine never, ever address that question. How are American interests enhanced by letting Russia nibble off pieces of whatever sovereign nations it decides is "in their sphere of interests?"
We serve our interests first of all by not lying to ourselves and each other about Russian intentions. We're told daily that Putin has declared his enmity to the West and his intention to conquer Europe. Yet any reading of his actual words shows the opposite. There's no end of ways in which we benefit from peace. We avoid the cost of the immediate conflict and the risks of a wider one. We avoid humiliating ourselves when our grandiose designs fail, as they consistently do. We avoid alienating our allies and provoking our enemies. Europe is enriched with energy and other benefits of trade with its neighbor. We're free to attend to our own problems, like debt, immigration, health care, infrastructure…the list goes on.
Russia is the neighbor that wants you to pay him for borrowing a cup of sugar and doesn't return your allen wrench set when he borrows it from you.
Mr. Treehorn treats objects like women, man.
FLBear5630
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Redbrickbear said:

RMF5630 said:

Redbrickbear said:

RMF5630 said:

Redbrickbear said:

RMF5630 said:

Redbrickbear said:

RMF5630 said:

Redbrickbear said:

HuMcK said:

I think you mistake cooperation for capitulation. We largely did try cooperation, we let them have the pieces of Ukraine they took in 2014 and left their energy industry alone. We flat out ignored Chechnya and Georgia getting swallowed up, not to mention brazen assassinations across western Europe. Three successive Presidents tried to reach out and work with Putin. Our next SecState after 2014 was an Exxon exec who had a Russian medal of friendship pinned on his chest by Putin himself. Of course Russia worked hard to help that SecState's boss get elected, so maybe that (and pretty much ignoring what they did in 2016) was just reciprocity.

What you want is for us (and Ukraine, then whoever else) to just lie down and take it, which frankly is incomprehensible to me. If their strategy works for them, why would they stop using it?


How could Russia "swallow up" Chechnya when it's always legally been apart of the Russian Federation.

Are you under the impression that Chechnya was an independent nation?


"n 9 April 1991, shortly before the collapse of the Soviet Union, the Supreme Council of Georgia declared independence after a referendum held on 31 March. Georgia was the first non-Baltic republic of the Soviet Union to officially declare independence."

You continually act like 1991 never happened, let alone1921 when the Soviets took over! The Putin apologist keep bringing up 1880's and earlier when in the 1990s Georgia was independent. Russia was wrong in Georgia and Chechnya just like in Ukraine now. Using you logic, we should be a British Colony!
Georgia and Chechnya are two completely different places.

So not sure why are seeming to conflate them.

Georgia was an independent Kingdom all the way back in the year 1008 AD

And had the status of a full Soviet Republic during the USSR.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgian_Soviet_Socialist_Republic

It declared its independence in 1991 and Russia did not try to stop it.

Chechnya was never a full kingdom and has been apart of Russia proper since the 1800s after the Russians conquered the Islamic mountain tribes of that area.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_conquest_of_Chechnya_and_Dagestan

These two places have very different histories.

"On November 1, 1991, Head of the All-National Congress of the Chechen People, Dzokhar Dudayev issued a Decree of Sovereignty of the Chechen Republic[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_of_Sovereignty_of_the_Chechen_Republic#cite_note-Galina_M.-1][1][/url] (Russian: o ).[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_of_Sovereignty_of_the_Chechen_Republic#cite_note-Stanford_Libraries-2][2][/url] Between 1991 and 2000 Chechnya was de facto an independent state."

I don't post stuff I don't research first. They declared sovereignty in 1991, when the other Soviet Block nations declared Sovereignty. Just because you don't recognize it doesn't mean it didn't happen. So, you are wrong they did become independent until the Russian boot was put back on their throat.

The two areas have VERY different histories, just like ALL the Soviet/Russian satellites do. BUT, they all have one thing in common, RUSSIAN AGGRESSION, INVASION AND SUBJEGATION. You seem to be good with that...


If you want to defend the right of Chechnya to break off from the Russian Federation and to create an Islamic emirate...then fine go ahead.

I have no stake in the question itself.

But as a historic reality the region of Chechnya was never a sovereign Kingdom like Georgia and never was a full Soviet Republic within the USSR.

It was always part of Russia. (in whatever form.. Imperial Russia, Soviet Russia, modern Russian Federation)

All the countries that got their independence in 1991 had been full Soviet Republics.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republics_of_the_Soviet_Union
It was a republic and declared independence in 91. Russia brutally put down that independence in 94/95 before recognized by the World. Chechnya was invaded by Russia in 1921 and forced into Russia, again. This has happened multiple times in history. Sure doesn't look like Chechnya considers itself Russian. But, you are technically correct, in 1991 they declared independence but it was not recognized before Russia invaded again.

Ok, is this better:

The two areas have VERY different histories, just like ALL the Soviet/Russian satellites or republics do. BUT, they all have one thing in common, RUSSIAN AGGRESSION, INVASION AND SUBJEGATION.






The Bolsheviks of the Soviet Union invaded in 1921.

Russia did not invade anything. So lets get that straight.

And again...Chechnya has never been an independent country...not in 1921 or at any other time.

It had been part of the Russian empire and then after that the USSR remained in control.

And before Russia took the area it was under the overlordship of Persia.

A short lived (non-internationally recognized state) does not make Chechnya anymore real than any other break away region that calls itself a country.

If Chechnya was a independent country in 1921 then Luhansk is an independent country today.
The history books and people living there disagree with you.

First off, the Caucaus didn't have the same definition of nation even up to the 1850's. Chechnya/Caucauses have never considered themselves Russian and have been fighting for over a millennia to get free. Anytime it has broken away, as usual, the big country to the north, call it Rus, Russia, Soviet Union, Russian Federation has one response, throw Cossacks, cavalry, infantry or political troops at it. You can play all the semantics and word-play you want, the bottomline is that the Land Mass now run by Putin took this land as far back as the 15th and 16th Century and has had the same response to individual freedom and independence: force. Chechnya has declared independence at least twice since the 1920's. As soon as Putin is gone, Chechnya will go for independence again...
If you are trying to make an argument for Chechnya to be independent...fine.

I have no fundamental problem with Chechnya breaking off from the Russian Federation.

(well except for the fact that Chechnya will probably end up being a violent Islamic theocracy, but still)

After all that is consistent with the actions of the West who helped Kosovo break off from Serbia.

But then you have to grant the same to the people of the Donbas to break off from Ukraine.
I have no problem with Donbas or Crimea breaking off. To be honest, I think Crimea has all the makings of a City-State similar to Singapore or back in the day Hong Kong. They could do fine based on their location and if they were allowed free trade.

My problem is with the tanks and Russia's strong arm tactics.
Redbrickbear
How long do you want to ignore this user?
RMF5630 said:

Redbrickbear said:

RMF5630 said:

Redbrickbear said:

RMF5630 said:

Redbrickbear said:

RMF5630 said:

Redbrickbear said:

RMF5630 said:

Redbrickbear said:

HuMcK said:

I think you mistake cooperation for capitulation. We largely did try cooperation, we let them have the pieces of Ukraine they took in 2014 and left their energy industry alone. We flat out ignored Chechnya and Georgia getting swallowed up, not to mention brazen assassinations across western Europe. Three successive Presidents tried to reach out and work with Putin. Our next SecState after 2014 was an Exxon exec who had a Russian medal of friendship pinned on his chest by Putin himself. Of course Russia worked hard to help that SecState's boss get elected, so maybe that (and pretty much ignoring what they did in 2016) was just reciprocity.

What you want is for us (and Ukraine, then whoever else) to just lie down and take it, which frankly is incomprehensible to me. If their strategy works for them, why would they stop using it?


How could Russia "swallow up" Chechnya when it's always legally been apart of the Russian Federation.

Are you under the impression that Chechnya was an independent nation?


"n 9 April 1991, shortly before the collapse of the Soviet Union, the Supreme Council of Georgia declared independence after a referendum held on 31 March. Georgia was the first non-Baltic republic of the Soviet Union to officially declare independence."

You continually act like 1991 never happened, let alone1921 when the Soviets took over! The Putin apologist keep bringing up 1880's and earlier when in the 1990s Georgia was independent. Russia was wrong in Georgia and Chechnya just like in Ukraine now. Using you logic, we should be a British Colony!
Georgia and Chechnya are two completely different places.

So not sure why are seeming to conflate them.

Georgia was an independent Kingdom all the way back in the year 1008 AD

And had the status of a full Soviet Republic during the USSR.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgian_Soviet_Socialist_Republic

It declared its independence in 1991 and Russia did not try to stop it.

Chechnya was never a full kingdom and has been apart of Russia proper since the 1800s after the Russians conquered the Islamic mountain tribes of that area.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_conquest_of_Chechnya_and_Dagestan

These two places have very different histories.

"On November 1, 1991, Head of the All-National Congress of the Chechen People, Dzokhar Dudayev issued a Decree of Sovereignty of the Chechen Republic[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_of_Sovereignty_of_the_Chechen_Republic#cite_note-Galina_M.-1][1][/url] (Russian: o ).[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_of_Sovereignty_of_the_Chechen_Republic#cite_note-Stanford_Libraries-2][2][/url] Between 1991 and 2000 Chechnya was de facto an independent state."

I don't post stuff I don't research first. They declared sovereignty in 1991, when the other Soviet Block nations declared Sovereignty. Just because you don't recognize it doesn't mean it didn't happen. So, you are wrong they did become independent until the Russian boot was put back on their throat.

The two areas have VERY different histories, just like ALL the Soviet/Russian satellites do. BUT, they all have one thing in common, RUSSIAN AGGRESSION, INVASION AND SUBJEGATION. You seem to be good with that...


If you want to defend the right of Chechnya to break off from the Russian Federation and to create an Islamic emirate...then fine go ahead.

I have no stake in the question itself.

But as a historic reality the region of Chechnya was never a sovereign Kingdom like Georgia and never was a full Soviet Republic within the USSR.

It was always part of Russia. (in whatever form.. Imperial Russia, Soviet Russia, modern Russian Federation)

All the countries that got their independence in 1991 had been full Soviet Republics.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republics_of_the_Soviet_Union
It was a republic and declared independence in 91. Russia brutally put down that independence in 94/95 before recognized by the World. Chechnya was invaded by Russia in 1921 and forced into Russia, again. This has happened multiple times in history. Sure doesn't look like Chechnya considers itself Russian. But, you are technically correct, in 1991 they declared independence but it was not recognized before Russia invaded again.

Ok, is this better:

The two areas have VERY different histories, just like ALL the Soviet/Russian satellites or republics do. BUT, they all have one thing in common, RUSSIAN AGGRESSION, INVASION AND SUBJEGATION.






The Bolsheviks of the Soviet Union invaded in 1921.

Russia did not invade anything. So lets get that straight.

And again...Chechnya has never been an independent country...not in 1921 or at any other time.

It had been part of the Russian empire and then after that the USSR remained in control.

And before Russia took the area it was under the overlordship of Persia.

A short lived (non-internationally recognized state) does not make Chechnya anymore real than any other break away region that calls itself a country.

If Chechnya was a independent country in 1921 then Luhansk is an independent country today.
The history books and people living there disagree with you.

First off, the Caucaus didn't have the same definition of nation even up to the 1850's. Chechnya/Caucauses have never considered themselves Russian and have been fighting for over a millennia to get free. Anytime it has broken away, as usual, the big country to the north, call it Rus, Russia, Soviet Union, Russian Federation has one response, throw Cossacks, cavalry, infantry or political troops at it. You can play all the semantics and word-play you want, the bottomline is that the Land Mass now run by Putin took this land as far back as the 15th and 16th Century and has had the same response to individual freedom and independence: force. Chechnya has declared independence at least twice since the 1920's. As soon as Putin is gone, Chechnya will go for independence again...
If you are trying to make an argument for Chechnya to be independent...fine.

I have no fundamental problem with Chechnya breaking off from the Russian Federation.

(well except for the fact that Chechnya will probably end up being a violent Islamic theocracy, but still)

After all that is consistent with the actions of the West who helped Kosovo break off from Serbia.

But then you have to grant the same to the people of the Donbas to break off from Ukraine.
I have no problem with Donbas or Crimea breaking off. To be honest, I think Crimea has all the makings of a City-State similar to Singapore or back in the day Hong Kong. They could do fine based on their location and if they were allowed free trade.

My problem is with the tanks and Russia's strong arm tactics.
Since 2014 the government in Kyiv has been using tanks and artillery to attack the people in Donbas.

Lets not pretend that Russia's invasion took place in a vacuum.

Indeed a strong case can be made that Kyiv should have just ignored the independence of Donbas in 2014 and focused on getting the rest of Ukraine into the EU and NATO instead of wasting time, money, and men with an 8 year war against the people in eastern Ukraine.
whiterock
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Redbrickbear said:

whiterock said:

Redbrickbear said:

whiterock said:

Sam Lowry said:

whiterock said:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Everyone else isn't responsible. It's the US that's responsible for actively goading them to fight.
It's almost like history of American inspired aggression started in 1776, before which time there was nothing but sweetness and lightness between Russians and Sami, Swedes, Finns, Balts, Poles, Slovaks, Hungarians, Romanians, Moldovans, Bulgarians, Ottomans, Georgians, Armenians, Kipchaks, Pechenegs, Cossacks, Tatars, Chechens Ukrainians, Belorussians, Khazars, Mongols, Iranians, Arabs, Khazaks, a half-dozen lesser Turkic tribes, %A0etc....... %A0(just going around the clock from memory....might have missed a few). %A0 %A0

Just curious. %A0 Did we "goad" the Earl of Cardigan to charge those guns at Balaclava? %A0Did we "goad" those Polish officers to their death in the Katyn Forest? %A0Did we.....(need I go on here?)



No, we didn't. And more importantly, we didn't have the arrogance to look at that history and think we could change it. Somehow we managed to build a great America anyway.
Aw, Sam. Our Founders did exactly that - they looked at history and changed it, offering an entirely new form of social contract that has inspired nations for centuries.


Observe good faith and justice toward all nations. Cultivate peace and harmony with all. Religion and morality enjoin this conduct. And can it be that good policy does not equally enjoin it? It will be worthy of a free, enlightened, and at no distant period a great nation to give to mankind the magnanimous and too novel example of a people always guided by an exalted justice and benevolence. Who can doubt that in the course of time and things the fruits of such a plan would richly repay any temporary advantages which might be lost by a steady adherence to it? Can it be that Providence has not connected the permanent felicity of a nation with its virtue? The experiment, at least, is recommended by every sentiment which ennobles human nature. Alas! is it rendered impossible by its vices?

In the execution of such a plan nothing is more essential than that permanent, inveterate antipathies against particular nations and passionate attachments for others should be excluded, and that in place of them just and amicable feelings toward all should be cultivated. The nation which indulges toward another an habitual hatred or an habitual fondness is in some degree a slave. It is a slave to its animosity or to its affection, either of which is sufficient to lead it astray from its duty and its interest. Antipathy in one nation against another disposes each more readily to offer insult and injury, to lay hold of slight causes of umbrage, and to be haughty and intractable when accidental or trifling occasions of dispute occur.

Hence frequent collisions, obstinate, envenomed, and bloody contests. The nation prompted by ill will and resentment sometimes impels to war the government contrary to the best calculations of policy. The government sometimes participates in the national propensity, and adopts through passion what reason would reject. At other times it makes the animosity of the nation subservient to projects of hostility, instigated by pride, ambition, and other sinister and pernicious motives. The peace often, sometimes perhaps the liberty, of nations has been the victim.

So, likewise, a passionate attachment of one nation for another produces a variety of evils. Sympathy for the favorite nation, facilitating the illusion of an imaginary common interest in cases where no real common interest exists, and infusing into one the enmities of the other, betrays the former into a participation in the quarrels and wars of the latter without adequate inducement or justification. It leads also to concessions to the favorite nation of privileges denied to others, which is apt doubly to injure the nation making the concessions by unnecessarily parting with what ought to have been retained, and by exciting jealousy, ill will, and a disposition to retaliate in the parties from whom equal privileges are withheld; and it gives to ambitious, corrupted, or deluded citizens (who devote themselves to the favorite nation) facility to betray or sacrifice the interests of their own country without odium, sometimes even with popularity, gilding with the appearances of a virtuous sense of obligation, a commendable deference for public opinion, or a laudable zeal for public good the base or foolish compliances of ambition, corruption, or infatuation.

As avenues to foreign influence in innumerable ways, such attachments are particularly alarming to the truly enlightened and independent patriot. How many opportunities do they afford to tamper with domestic factions, to practice the arts of seduction, to mislead public opinion, to influence or awe the public councils! Such an attachment of a small or weak toward a great and powerful nation dooms the former to be the satellite of the latter. Against the insidious wiles of foreign influence (I conjure you to believe me, fellow-citizens) the jealousy of a free people ought to be constantly awake, since history and experience prove that foreign influence is one of the most baneful foes of republican government. But that jealousy, to be useful, must be impartial, else it becomes the instrument of the very influence to be avoided, instead of a defense against it. Excessive partiality for one foreign nation and excessive dislike of another cause those whom they actuate to see danger only on one side, and serve to veil and even second the arts of influence on the other. Real patriots who may resist the intrigues of the favorite are liable to become suspected and odious, while its tools and dupes usurp the applause and confidence of the people to surrender their interests.

The great rule of conduct for us in regard to foreign nations is, in extending our commercial relations to have with them as little political connection as possible. So far as we have already formed engagements let them be fulfilled with perfect good faith. Here let us stop.

Europe has a set of primary interests which to us have none or a very remote relation. Hence she must be engaged in frequent controversies, the causes of which are essentially foreign to our concerns. Hence, therefore, it must be unwise in us to implicate ourselves by artificial ties in the ordinary vicissitudes of her politics or the ordinary combinations and collisions of her friendships or enmities.

Our detached and distant situation invites and enables us to pursue a different course. If we remain one people, under an efficient government, the period is not far off when we may defy material injury from external annoyance; when we may take such an attitude as will cause the neutrality we may at any time resolve upon to be scrupulously respected; when belligerent nations, under the impossibility of making acquisitions upon us, will not lightly hazard the giving us provocation; when we may choose peace or war, as our interest, guided by justice, shall counsel.

Why forego the advantages of so peculiar a situation? Why quit our own to stand upon foreign ground? Why, by interweaving our destiny with that of any part of Europe, entangle our peace and prosperity in the toils of European ambition, rivalship, interest, humor, or caprice?

It is our true policy to steer clear of permanent alliances with any portion of the foreign world, so far, I mean, as we are now at liberty to do it; for let me not be understood as capable of patronizing infidelity to existing engagements. I hold the maxim no less applicable to public than to private affairs that honesty is always the best policy. I repeat, therefore, let those engagements be observed in their genuine sense. But in my opinion it is unnecessary and would be unwise to extend them.

Taking care always to keep ourselves by suitable establishments on a respectable defensive posture, we may safely trust to temporary alliances for extraordinary emergencies.

Harmony, liberal intercourse with all nations are recommended by policy, humanity, and interest. But even our commercial policy should hold an equal and impartial hand, neither seeking nor granting exclusive favors or preferences; consulting the natural course of things; diffusing and diversifying by gentle means the streams of commerce, but forcing nothing; establishing with powers so disposed, in order to give trade a stable course, to define the rights of our merchants, and to enable the Government to support them, conventional rules of intercourse, the best that present circumstances and mutual opinion will permit, but temporary and liable to be from time to time abandoned or varied as experience and circumstances shall dictate; constantly keeping in view that it is folly in one nation to look for disinterested favors from another; that it must pay with a portion of its independence for whatever it may accept under that character; that by such acceptance it may place itself in the condition of having given equivalents for nominal favors, and yet of being reproached with ingratitude for not giving more. There can be no greater error than to expect or calculate upon real favors from nation to nation. It is an illusion which experience must cure, which a just pride ought to discard.

George Washington
I found that part in bold to be particularly amusing, as you are indeed demanding the Ukrainians to surrender their interests so that you may....what?.....exactly what is the gain, other than to Russia, from the policy you propose?


It does Ukraine no good to continue to fight a bloody and costly war trying to get back two areas (Donbas and Crimea) that are filled with ethnic Russians and who Ukraine can not reconquer.

The long term interest of Ukrainians is to rebuild their economy and country...and become a part of the rich trading bloc know as the EU.

And one day NATO.

None of that is going to happen while they are in an active war.
Well, you are incorrect that Ukraine cannot recover the Donbas and Crimea. Such is indeed possible, and we will have a better sense of that this summer. Both areas are at this point mostly filled with soldiers, so the outcome of battle will drive the demographics in favor of the victor.

Mostly, though, the determination of what is good or not is not for you or me or anyone else but the Ukrainian people. They WANT to fight. Now, we've previously abandoned on the battlefield people who still wanted to fight...notably the Kurds....because there were larger issues at play. We did have a benefit to derive from pulling our support. But what benefit do we derive from letting Russia carve off pieces of internationally recognized Ukrainian territory?

The critics of US support for Ukraine never, ever address that question. How are American interests enhanced by letting Russia nibble off pieces of whatever sovereign nations it decides is "in their sphere of interests?"

I'll cede that you have a point on budgetary questions.
But what else?

How are American interests enhanced by getting Ukrainians to die in mass in a most likely futile war to retake territory? Territory filled with people who don't consider themselves ethnic Ukrainians.

How are American interests enhanced by spending billions on a bloody stalemate?

The American intelligence community in the 1990s asserted that the USA had no strategic interests in Europe east of the Bug river.

Why has that changed? And if it is has then certainly we have no strategic interests east of the Dnieper river.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dnieper

[In contrast, the United States has never operated east of the Oder River; nor has it ever been engaged in Europe in non-linear, limited warfare (often under the threshold of kinetic war) against a major power that thrives off this type of conflict.]

https://jamestown.org/program/belarus-as-a-pivot-of-polands-grand-strategy/
That link has some excellent geo-political analysis on the importance of Belarus. A neutral Belarus is key to stability in the region. Unfortunately, Belarus has fallen under Russian influence, a factor which is not irrelevant to the ongoing conflict in Ukraine. Such sharply increases the necessity of denying Russian ambitions for Ukraine. Russian hegemony over the entirety of Belarus and Ukraine would represent loss of the entire shatterzone between Russia and NATO, a drastic destabilization in favor of Russia. Opponents of current US policy toward the Russo-Ukraine War pointedly ignore that. They refuse to elucidate clearly how loss of that shatterzone is immaterial to our security interests.

To your questions: American interests are most assuredly not harmed by Ukrainians dying in a futile war. But the war is not futile, because you have assumed an outcome not likely to occur - Ukraine will in fact survive the war mostly, if not fully intact. The retention of an independent Ukraine substantially increases the security of NATO (by retaining balance in the shatterzone). The destruction of the Russian Army in a stalemated war substantially increases the securty of NATO.
We want Russia to fire every artillery shell they own into Ukrainain mud.
We want Russia to leave its inventory of T-series tanks as rusting lawn ornaments in Ukrainian wheat fields.
etc......
Because every round fired, every tank destroyed in the Ukraine War is one less round/tank that can be aimed at Nato troops and Nato territory.
Bleed the Russian war machine white.

Spending a few billions to ensure a stalemated outcome, as opposed to the loss of the entirety of Ukraine to the Russian orbit, if not Russian annexation? That's a win, my friend. A huge win. Historic win. A win which will likely ensure peace lasts for a period of decades rather than years.

No strategic interests does not mean "no interests." "No strategic interests" means, we are not going to commit our troops to defend Ukraine. In fact, we do have strategic interests in supporting others who have strategic interests in the area (like Nato allies in Central Europe). We do have strategic interests in ensuring "balance" or "stability" etc......

Opponents of our Russo-Ukraine War policy have yet to elucidate a single benefit to US national security by just letting Russia have its way with Ukraine.






whiterock
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RMF5630 said:

Redbrickbear said:

RMF5630 said:

Redbrickbear said:

HuMcK said:

I think you mistake cooperation for capitulation. We largely did try cooperation, we let them have the pieces of Ukraine they took in 2014 and left their energy industry alone. We flat out ignored Chechnya and Georgia getting swallowed up, not to mention brazen assassinations across western Europe. Three successive Presidents tried to reach out and work with Putin. Our next SecState after 2014 was an Exxon exec who had a Russian medal of friendship pinned on his chest by Putin himself. Of course Russia worked hard to help that SecState's boss get elected, so maybe that (and pretty much ignoring what they did in 2016) was just reciprocity.

What you want is for us (and Ukraine, then whoever else) to just lie down and take it, which frankly is incomprehensible to me. If their strategy works for them, why would they stop using it?


How could Russia "swallow up" Chechnya when it's always legally been apart of the Russian Federation.

Are you under the impression that Chechnya was an independent nation?


"n 9 April 1991, shortly before the collapse of the Soviet Union, the Supreme Council of Georgia declared independence after a referendum held on 31 March. Georgia was the first non-Baltic republic of the Soviet Union to officially declare independence."

You continually act like 1991 never happened, let alone1921 when the Soviets took over! The Putin apologist keep bringing up 1880's and earlier when in the 1990s Georgia was independent. Russia was wrong in Georgia and Chechnya just like in Ukraine now. Using you logic, we should be a British Colony!
Georgia and Chechnya are two completely different places.

So not sure why are seeming to conflate them.

Georgia was an independent Kingdom all the way back in the year 1008 AD

And had the status of a full Soviet Republic during the USSR.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgian_Soviet_Socialist_Republic

It declared its independence in 1991 and Russia did not try to stop it.

Chechnya was never a full kingdom and has been apart of Russia proper since the 1800s after the Russians conquered the Islamic mountain tribes of that area.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_conquest_of_Chechnya_and_Dagestan

These two places have very different histories.

"On November 1, 1991, Head of the All-National Congress of the Chechen People, Dzokhar Dudayev issued a Decree of Sovereignty of the Chechen Republic[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_of_Sovereignty_of_the_Chechen_Republic#cite_note-Galina_M.-1][1][/url] (Russian: o ).[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_of_Sovereignty_of_the_Chechen_Republic#cite_note-Stanford_Libraries-2][2][/url] Between 1991 and 2000 Chechnya was de facto an independent state."

I don't post stuff I don't research first. They declared sovereignty in 1991, when the other Soviet Block nations declared Sovereignty. Just because you don't recognize it doesn't mean it didn't happen. So, you are wrong they did become independent until the Russian boot was put back on their throat.

The two areas have VERY different histories, just like ALL the Soviet/Russian satellites do. BUT, they all have one thing in common, RUSSIAN AGGRESSION, INVASION AND SUBJEGATION. You seem to be good with that...


I think Redbrick has the honors on this point.

the key differentiation is this: Georgia was an SSR. Chechnya was not. Chechnya was a region within the Russian SSR. So it did not have the same status other SSR had to simply leave the a union they had previously formed.

The analogy would be.......the 50 American States decided to separate, each state legislature making declarations of independence, amending constitutions & laws as necessary to take over former federal responsibilities, creating armies, establishing relationships with foreign powers, etc...... and then in the middle of all that mess, a group of elected leaders in Waco meet at Ferrell Center to announce that they are creating their own Republic of Baylor.

The state of Texas could be expected to move forthwith to shut that down...... Yes, initiative & referendum is a right of free peoples. Yes, self-determination is a primary purpose of self-government. But McLennan Co, no matter how much more Baptist it might be than the rest of the state, is an administrative creation of the State of Texas, not a recognized state in its own right. That fundamentally changes things.,,,,
whiterock
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Sam Lowry said:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:



Observe good faith and justice toward all nations. Cultivate peace and harmony with all. Religion and morality enjoin this conduct. And can it be that good policy does not equally enjoin it? It will be worthy of a free, enlightened, and at no distant period a great nation to give to mankind the magnanimous and too novel example of a people always guided by an exalted justice and benevolence. Who can doubt that in the course of time and things the fruits of such a plan would richly repay any temporary advantages which might be lost by a steady adherence to it? Can it be that Providence has not connected the permanent felicity of a nation with its virtue? The experiment, at least, is recommended by every sentiment which ennobles human nature. Alas! is it rendered impossible by its vices?

In the execution of such a plan nothing is more essential than that permanent, inveterate antipathies against particular nations and passionate attachments for others should be excluded, and that in place of them just and amicable feelings toward all should be cultivated. The nation which indulges toward another an habitual hatred or an habitual fondness is in some degree a slave. It is a slave to its animosity or to its affection, either of which is sufficient to lead it astray from its duty and its interest. Antipathy in one nation against another disposes each more readily to offer insult and injury, to lay hold of slight causes of umbrage, and to be haughty and intractable when accidental or trifling occasions of dispute occur.

Hence frequent collisions, obstinate, envenomed, and bloody contests. The nation prompted by ill will and resentment sometimes impels to war the government contrary to the best calculations of policy. The government sometimes participates in the national propensity, and adopts through passion what reason would reject. At other times it makes the animosity of the nation subservient to projects of hostility, instigated by pride, ambition, and other sinister and pernicious motives. The peace often, sometimes perhaps the liberty, of nations has been the victim.

So, likewise, a passionate attachment of one nation for another produces a variety of evils. Sympathy for the favorite nation, facilitating the illusion of an imaginary common interest in cases where no real common interest exists, and infusing into one the enmities of the other, betrays the former into a participation in the quarrels and wars of the latter without adequate inducement or justification. It leads also to concessions to the favorite nation of privileges denied to others, which is apt doubly to injure the nation making the concessions by unnecessarily parting with what ought to have been retained, and by exciting jealousy, ill will, and a disposition to retaliate in the parties from whom equal privileges are withheld; and it gives to ambitious, corrupted, or deluded citizens (who devote themselves to the favorite nation) facility to betray or sacrifice the interests of their own country without odium, sometimes even with popularity, gilding with the appearances of a virtuous sense of obligation, a commendable deference for public opinion, or a laudable zeal for public good the base or foolish compliances of ambition, corruption, or infatuation.

As avenues to foreign influence in innumerable ways, such attachments are particularly alarming to the truly enlightened and independent patriot. How many opportunities do they afford to tamper with domestic factions, to practice the arts of seduction, to mislead public opinion, to influence or awe the public councils! Such an attachment of a small or weak toward a great and powerful nation dooms the former to be the satellite of the latter. Against the insidious wiles of foreign influence (I conjure you to believe me, fellow-citizens) the jealousy of a free people ought to be constantly awake, since history and experience prove that foreign influence is one of the most baneful foes of republican government. But that jealousy, to be useful, must be impartial, else it becomes the instrument of the very influence to be avoided, instead of a defense against it. Excessive partiality for one foreign nation and excessive dislike of another cause those whom they actuate to see danger only on one side, and serve to veil and even second the arts of influence on the other. Real patriots who may resist the intrigues of the favorite are liable to become suspected and odious, while its tools and dupes usurp the applause and confidence of the people to surrender their interests.

The great rule of conduct for us in regard to foreign nations is, in extending our commercial relations to have with them as little political connection as possible. So far as we have already formed engagements let them be fulfilled with perfect good faith. Here let us stop.

Europe has a set of primary interests which to us have none or a very remote relation. Hence she must be engaged in frequent controversies, the causes of which are essentially foreign to our concerns. Hence, therefore, it must be unwise in us to implicate ourselves by artificial ties in the ordinary vicissitudes of her politics or the ordinary combinations and collisions of her friendships or enmities.

Our detached and distant situation invites and enables us to pursue a different course. If we remain one people, under an efficient government, the period is not far off when we may defy material injury from external annoyance; when we may take such an attitude as will cause the neutrality we may at any time resolve upon to be scrupulously respected; when belligerent nations, under the impossibility of making acquisitions upon us, will not lightly hazard the giving us provocation; when we may choose peace or war, as our interest, guided by justice, shall counsel.

Why forego the advantages of so peculiar a situation? Why quit our own to stand upon foreign ground? Why, by interweaving our destiny with that of any part of Europe, entangle our peace and prosperity in the toils of European ambition, rivalship, interest, humor, or caprice?

It is our true policy to steer clear of permanent alliances with any portion of the foreign world, so far, I mean, as we are now at liberty to do it; for let me not be understood as capable of patronizing infidelity to existing engagements. I hold the maxim no less applicable to public than to private affairs that honesty is always the best policy. I repeat, therefore, let those engagements be observed in their genuine sense. But in my opinion it is unnecessary and would be unwise to extend them.

Taking care always to keep ourselves by suitable establishments on a respectable defensive posture, we may safely trust to temporary alliances for extraordinary emergencies.

Harmony, liberal intercourse with all nations are recommended by policy, humanity, and interest. But even our commercial policy should hold an equal and impartial hand, neither seeking nor granting exclusive favors or preferences; consulting the natural course of things; diffusing and diversifying by gentle means the streams of commerce, but forcing nothing; establishing with powers so disposed, in order to give trade a stable course, to define the rights of our merchants, and to enable the Government to support them, conventional rules of intercourse, the best that present circumstances and mutual opinion will permit, but temporary and liable to be from time to time abandoned or varied as experience and circumstances shall dictate; constantly keeping in view that it is folly in one nation to look for disinterested favors from another; that it must pay with a portion of its independence for whatever it may accept under that character; that by such acceptance it may place itself in the condition of having given equivalents for nominal favors, and yet of being reproached with ingratitude for not giving more. There can be no greater error than to expect or calculate upon real favors from nation to nation. It is an illusion which experience must cure, which a just pride ought to discard.

George Washington
I found that part in bold to be particularly amusing, as you are indeed demanding the Ukrainians to surrender their interests so that you may....what?.....exactly what is the gain, other than to Russia, from the policy you propose?

Most pointedly, Washington's Warning simply does not fit the dynamic. This policy exists within the context of post-Cold War policy toward Russia, which has fit within Washington's recommendations on unstable alliances. On the particulars of Ukraine, we've had no formal alliance of any substance with them in our history. In the last 12 months, we have sold them a modest amount arms and ammunition for use not to invade others but to defend their Republic from an invasion by an autocratic power. So there is, quite patently, no evidence of either momentary infatuation or long-term attachment. Neither does supporting Ukraine risk dragging us into entanglements that threaten escalation. Our policy is by any measure squarely within the warnings issued by Washington, rooted in self-interest. On not a single plank of alleged benefit are the interests of the American people enhanced by appeasing Russian desires for hegemony over Central Europe. Quite the opposite. Helping like-minded peoples to defend their own self-governing Republic is a policy simultaneously principled and pragmatic, a rarer instance where the dynamics of morals and markets align.

I do have to hand it to you, though. Using Washington's Farewell Address to beg the question on Russian Appeasement is an irony not at all sublime, but rather amplified to garishness by the sheer audacity of the effort.

I'm not demanding anything of Ukraine. But if you honestly believe our post-Cold War policy has followed Washington's recommendation of good faith, justice, peace, and harmony, you've perverted the meaning of those words beyond all recognition. In truth this is a textbook case of inveterate antipathy that's long outlived its usefulness to anyone except the most corrupt elements of our ruling class (and our client's).
into what post-cold war alliance have we entered?
have there not been sea changes in some of our historic alliances over the last 20 years?
can you not see at least one ischemic "180 degrees" foreign policy change?
can you not see another gradual evolution in a strategic relationship spanning several decades to nearly the same degree?

evidence of your refutation is everywhere, man.
Don't try to avoid Washington's argument by narrowing it unduly. As this war demonstrates, it is quite easy for foreign entanglements to influence policy without formal alliances.
how are we entangled in Ukraine?
Is it not a fairly simple case of "a Ukraine win is better for us than a Ukraine loss?"

Does Russian hegemony over Ukraine not negatively affect a wide range of US commercial interests?
(of course)

Our support for Ukraine is manifestly in our self-interest.
Why would policy be based on anything other than self-interest?
whiterock
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Sam Lowry said:

whiterock said:

Redbrickbear said:

whiterock said:

Sam Lowry said:

whiterock said:

Quote:

Quote:

It's almost like history of American inspired aggression started in 1776, before which time there was nothing but sweetness and lightness between Russians and Sami, Swedes, Finns, Balts, Poles, Slovaks, Hungarians, Romanians, Moldovans, Bulgarians, Ottomans, Georgians, Armenians, Kipchaks, Pechenegs, Cossacks, Tatars, Chechens Ukrainians, Belorussians, Khazars, Mongols, Iranians, Arabs, Khazaks, a half-dozen lesser Turkic tribes, %A0etc....... %A0(just going around the clock from memory....might have missed a few). %A0 %A0

Just curious. %A0 Did we "goad" the Earl of Cardigan to charge those guns at Balaclava? %A0Did we "goad" those Polish officers to their death in the Katyn Forest? %A0Did we.....(need I go on here?)




No, we didn't. And more importantly, we didn't have the arrogance to look at that history and think we could change it. Somehow we managed to build a great America anyway.
Aw, Sam. Our Founders did exactly that - they looked at history and changed it, offering an entirely new form of social contract that has inspired nations for centuries.


Observe good faith and justice toward all nations. Cultivate peace and harmony with all. Religion and morality enjoin this conduct. And can it be that good policy does not equally enjoin it? It will be worthy of a free, enlightened, and at no distant period a great nation to give to mankind the magnanimous and too novel example of a people always guided by an exalted justice and benevolence. Who can doubt that in the course of time and things the fruits of such a plan would richly repay any temporary advantages which might be lost by a steady adherence to it? Can it be that Providence has not connected the permanent felicity of a nation with its virtue? The experiment, at least, is recommended by every sentiment which ennobles human nature. Alas! is it rendered impossible by its vices?

In the execution of such a plan nothing is more essential than that permanent, inveterate antipathies against particular nations and passionate attachments for others should be excluded, and that in place of them just and amicable feelings toward all should be cultivated. The nation which indulges toward another an habitual hatred or an habitual fondness is in some degree a slave. It is a slave to its animosity or to its affection, either of which is sufficient to lead it astray from its duty and its interest. Antipathy in one nation against another disposes each more readily to offer insult and injury, to lay hold of slight causes of umbrage, and to be haughty and intractable when accidental or trifling occasions of dispute occur.

Hence frequent collisions, obstinate, envenomed, and bloody contests. The nation prompted by ill will and resentment sometimes impels to war the government contrary to the best calculations of policy. The government sometimes participates in the national propensity, and adopts through passion what reason would reject. At other times it makes the animosity of the nation subservient to projects of hostility, instigated by pride, ambition, and other sinister and pernicious motives. The peace often, sometimes perhaps the liberty, of nations has been the victim.

So, likewise, a passionate attachment of one nation for another produces a variety of evils. Sympathy for the favorite nation, facilitating the illusion of an imaginary common interest in cases where no real common interest exists, and infusing into one the enmities of the other, betrays the former into a participation in the quarrels and wars of the latter without adequate inducement or justification. It leads also to concessions to the favorite nation of privileges denied to others, which is apt doubly to injure the nation making the concessions by unnecessarily parting with what ought to have been retained, and by exciting jealousy, ill will, and a disposition to retaliate in the parties from whom equal privileges are withheld; and it gives to ambitious, corrupted, or deluded citizens (who devote themselves to the favorite nation) facility to betray or sacrifice the interests of their own country without odium, sometimes even with popularity, gilding with the appearances of a virtuous sense of obligation, a commendable deference for public opinion, or a laudable zeal for public good the base or foolish compliances of ambition, corruption, or infatuation.

As avenues to foreign influence in innumerable ways, such attachments are particularly alarming to the truly enlightened and independent patriot. How many opportunities do they afford to tamper with domestic factions, to practice the arts of seduction, to mislead public opinion, to influence or awe the public councils! Such an attachment of a small or weak toward a great and powerful nation dooms the former to be the satellite of the latter. Against the insidious wiles of foreign influence (I conjure you to believe me, fellow-citizens) the jealousy of a free people ought to be constantly awake, since history and experience prove that foreign influence is one of the most baneful foes of republican government. But that jealousy, to be useful, must be impartial, else it becomes the instrument of the very influence to be avoided, instead of a defense against it. Excessive partiality for one foreign nation and excessive dislike of another cause those whom they actuate to see danger only on one side, and serve to veil and even second the arts of influence on the other. Real patriots who may resist the intrigues of the favorite are liable to become suspected and odious, while its tools and dupes usurp the applause and confidence of the people to surrender their interests.

The great rule of conduct for us in regard to foreign nations is, in extending our commercial relations to have with them as little political connection as possible. So far as we have already formed engagements let them be fulfilled with perfect good faith. Here let us stop.

Europe has a set of primary interests which to us have none or a very remote relation. Hence she must be engaged in frequent controversies, the causes of which are essentially foreign to our concerns. Hence, therefore, it must be unwise in us to implicate ourselves by artificial ties in the ordinary vicissitudes of her politics or the ordinary combinations and collisions of her friendships or enmities.

Our detached and distant situation invites and enables us to pursue a different course. If we remain one people, under an efficient government, the period is not far off when we may defy material injury from external annoyance; when we may take such an attitude as will cause the neutrality we may at any time resolve upon to be scrupulously respected; when belligerent nations, under the impossibility of making acquisitions upon us, will not lightly hazard the giving us provocation; when we may choose peace or war, as our interest, guided by justice, shall counsel.

Why forego the advantages of so peculiar a situation? Why quit our own to stand upon foreign ground? Why, by interweaving our destiny with that of any part of Europe, entangle our peace and prosperity in the toils of European ambition, rivalship, interest, humor, or caprice?

It is our true policy to steer clear of permanent alliances with any portion of the foreign world, so far, I mean, as we are now at liberty to do it; for let me not be understood as capable of patronizing infidelity to existing engagements. I hold the maxim no less applicable to public than to private affairs that honesty is always the best policy. I repeat, therefore, let those engagements be observed in their genuine sense. But in my opinion it is unnecessary and would be unwise to extend them.

Taking care always to keep ourselves by suitable establishments on a respectable defensive posture, we may safely trust to temporary alliances for extraordinary emergencies.

Harmony, liberal intercourse with all nations are recommended by policy, humanity, and interest. But even our commercial policy should hold an equal and impartial hand, neither seeking nor granting exclusive favors or preferences; consulting the natural course of things; diffusing and diversifying by gentle means the streams of commerce, but forcing nothing; establishing with powers so disposed, in order to give trade a stable course, to define the rights of our merchants, and to enable the Government to support them, conventional rules of intercourse, the best that present circumstances and mutual opinion will permit, but temporary and liable to be from time to time abandoned or varied as experience and circumstances shall dictate; constantly keeping in view that it is folly in one nation to look for disinterested favors from another; that it must pay with a portion of its independence for whatever it may accept under that character; that by such acceptance it may place itself in the condition of having given equivalents for nominal favors, and yet of being reproached with ingratitude for not giving more. There can be no greater error than to expect or calculate upon real favors from nation to nation. It is an illusion which experience must cure, which a just pride ought to discard.

George Washington
I found that part in bold to be particularly amusing, as you are indeed demanding the Ukrainians to surrender their interests so that you may....what?.....exactly what is the gain, other than to Russia, from the policy you propose?


It does Ukraine no good to continue to fight a bloody and costly war trying to get back two areas (Donbas and Crimea) that are filled with ethnic Russians and who Ukraine can not reconquer.

The long term interest of Ukrainians is to rebuild their economy and country...and become a part of the rich trading bloc know as the EU.

And one day NATO.

None of that is going to happen while they are in an active war.
The critics of US support for Ukraine never, ever address that question. How are American interests enhanced by letting Russia nibble off pieces of whatever sovereign nations it decides is "in their sphere of interests?"
We serve our interests first of all by not lying to ourselves and each other about Russian intentions. We're told daily that Putin has declared his enmity to the West and his intention to conquer Europe. Yet any reading of his actual words shows the opposite. There's no end of ways in which we benefit from peace. We avoid the cost of the immediate conflict and the risks of a wider one. We avoid humiliating ourselves when our grandiose designs fail, as they consistently do. We avoid alienating our allies and provoking our enemies. Europe is enriched with energy and other benefits of trade with its neighbor. We're free to attend to our own problems, like debt, immigration, health care, infrastructure…the list goes on.
Putin's statements, subject-verb-object, consistently over decades, show enmity toward the liberal order in general and NATO in particular. He has issued long, sober, well structured policy speeches that the goal of Russian policy is to have several current Nato states leave the alliance and return to Russian orbit. More to the point, none of that is surprising. All of it is consistent with long-standing Russian interests. We should not cede a single inch of that agenda to Russia. If they want it, make them take it.

Peace for the sake of peace is always a fool's errand. Reality is, nations go to war to secure a better peace. that is exactly what Russia is doing now....going to war, to secure a peace which moves some/all of Ukraine into the Russian orbit. Ukraine is resisting to secure a better peace....to return the Donbas and Crimea to their rightful status as a part of Ukraine. We should not agree to any peace which rewards Russia for the war they started. Reasonable people could of course disagree on that, but they would have to provide reasons for why such would benefit US interests. As of this date, they have not.

whiterock
How long do you want to ignore this user?
RMF5630 said:

Redbrickbear said:

RMF5630 said:

Redbrickbear said:

RMF5630 said:

Redbrickbear said:

RMF5630 said:

Redbrickbear said:

RMF5630 said:

Redbrickbear said:

HuMcK said:

I think you mistake cooperation for capitulation. We largely did try cooperation, we let them have the pieces of Ukraine they took in 2014 and left their energy industry alone. We flat out ignored Chechnya and Georgia getting swallowed up, not to mention brazen assassinations across western Europe. Three successive Presidents tried to reach out and work with Putin. Our next SecState after 2014 was an Exxon exec who had a Russian medal of friendship pinned on his chest by Putin himself. Of course Russia worked hard to help that SecState's boss get elected, so maybe that (and pretty much ignoring what they did in 2016) was just reciprocity.

What you want is for us (and Ukraine, then whoever else) to just lie down and take it, which frankly is incomprehensible to me. If their strategy works for them, why would they stop using it?


How could Russia "swallow up" Chechnya when it's always legally been apart of the Russian Federation.

Are you under the impression that Chechnya was an independent nation?


"n 9 April 1991, shortly before the collapse of the Soviet Union, the Supreme Council of Georgia declared independence after a referendum held on 31 March. Georgia was the first non-Baltic republic of the Soviet Union to officially declare independence."

You continually act like 1991 never happened, let alone1921 when the Soviets took over! The Putin apologist keep bringing up 1880's and earlier when in the 1990s Georgia was independent. Russia was wrong in Georgia and Chechnya just like in Ukraine now. Using you logic, we should be a British Colony!
Georgia and Chechnya are two completely different places.

So not sure why are seeming to conflate them.

Georgia was an independent Kingdom all the way back in the year 1008 AD

And had the status of a full Soviet Republic during the USSR.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgian_Soviet_Socialist_Republic

It declared its independence in 1991 and Russia did not try to stop it.

Chechnya was never a full kingdom and has been apart of Russia proper since the 1800s after the Russians conquered the Islamic mountain tribes of that area.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_conquest_of_Chechnya_and_Dagestan

These two places have very different histories.

"On November 1, 1991, Head of the All-National Congress of the Chechen People, Dzokhar Dudayev issued a Decree of Sovereignty of the Chechen Republic[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_of_Sovereignty_of_the_Chechen_Republic#cite_note-Galina_M.-1][1][/url] (Russian: o ).[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_of_Sovereignty_of_the_Chechen_Republic#cite_note-Stanford_Libraries-2][2][/url] Between 1991 and 2000 Chechnya was de facto an independent state."

I don't post stuff I don't research first. They declared sovereignty in 1991, when the other Soviet Block nations declared Sovereignty. Just because you don't recognize it doesn't mean it didn't happen. So, you are wrong they did become independent until the Russian boot was put back on their throat.

The two areas have VERY different histories, just like ALL the Soviet/Russian satellites do. BUT, they all have one thing in common, RUSSIAN AGGRESSION, INVASION AND SUBJEGATION. You seem to be good with that...


If you want to defend the right of Chechnya to break off from the Russian Federation and to create an Islamic emirate...then fine go ahead.

I have no stake in the question itself.

But as a historic reality the region of Chechnya was never a sovereign Kingdom like Georgia and never was a full Soviet Republic within the USSR.

It was always part of Russia. (in whatever form.. Imperial Russia, Soviet Russia, modern Russian Federation)

All the countries that got their independence in 1991 had been full Soviet Republics.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republics_of_the_Soviet_Union
It was a republic and declared independence in 91. Russia brutally put down that independence in 94/95 before recognized by the World. Chechnya was invaded by Russia in 1921 and forced into Russia, again. This has happened multiple times in history. Sure doesn't look like Chechnya considers itself Russian. But, you are technically correct, in 1991 they declared independence but it was not recognized before Russia invaded again.

Ok, is this better:

The two areas have VERY different histories, just like ALL the Soviet/Russian satellites or republics do. BUT, they all have one thing in common, RUSSIAN AGGRESSION, INVASION AND SUBJEGATION.






The Bolsheviks of the Soviet Union invaded in 1921.

Russia did not invade anything. So lets get that straight.

And again...Chechnya has never been an independent country...not in 1921 or at any other time.

It had been part of the Russian empire and then after that the USSR remained in control.

And before Russia took the area it was under the overlordship of Persia.

A short lived (non-internationally recognized state) does not make Chechnya anymore real than any other break away region that calls itself a country.

If Chechnya was a independent country in 1921 then Luhansk is an independent country today.
The history books and people living there disagree with you.

First off, the Caucaus didn't have the same definition of nation even up to the 1850's. Chechnya/Caucauses have never considered themselves Russian and have been fighting for over a millennia to get free. Anytime it has broken away, as usual, the big country to the north, call it Rus, Russia, Soviet Union, Russian Federation has one response, throw Cossacks, cavalry, infantry or political troops at it. You can play all the semantics and word-play you want, the bottomline is that the Land Mass now run by Putin took this land as far back as the 15th and 16th Century and has had the same response to individual freedom and independence: force. Chechnya has declared independence at least twice since the 1920's. As soon as Putin is gone, Chechnya will go for independence again...
If you are trying to make an argument for Chechnya to be independent...fine.

I have no fundamental problem with Chechnya breaking off from the Russian Federation.

(well except for the fact that Chechnya will probably end up being a violent Islamic theocracy, but still)

After all that is consistent with the actions of the West who helped Kosovo break off from Serbia.

But then you have to grant the same to the people of the Donbas to break off from Ukraine.
I have no problem with Donbas or Crimea breaking off. To be honest, I think Crimea has all the makings of a City-State similar to Singapore or back in the day Hong Kong. They could do fine based on their location and if they were allowed free trade.

My problem is with the tanks and Russia's strong arm tactics.
Sebastopol as a city-state, and the rest of Crimea reverting to Ukraine would make a lot of sense as a compromise position for peace. Russia would never agree to it, though....
Sam Lowry
How long do you want to ignore this user?
whiterock said:

Sam Lowry said:

whiterock said:

Redbrickbear said:

whiterock said:

Sam Lowry said:

whiterock said:

Quote:

Quote:

It's almost like history of American inspired aggression started in 1776, before which time there was nothing but sweetness and lightness between Russians and Sami, Swedes, Finns, Balts, Poles, Slovaks, Hungarians, Romanians, Moldovans, Bulgarians, Ottomans, Georgians, Armenians, Kipchaks, Pechenegs, Cossacks, Tatars, Chechens Ukrainians, Belorussians, Khazars, Mongols, Iranians, Arabs, Khazaks, a half-dozen lesser Turkic tribes, %A0etc....... %A0(just going around the clock from memory....might have missed a few). %A0 %A0

Just curious. %A0 Did we "goad" the Earl of Cardigan to charge those guns at Balaclava? %A0Did we "goad" those Polish officers to their death in the Katyn Forest? %A0Did we.....(need I go on here?)




No, we didn't. And more importantly, we didn't have the arrogance to look at that history and think we could change it. Somehow we managed to build a great America anyway.
Aw, Sam. Our Founders did exactly that - they looked at history and changed it, offering an entirely new form of social contract that has inspired nations for centuries.


Observe good faith and justice toward all nations. Cultivate peace and harmony with all. Religion and morality enjoin this conduct. And can it be that good policy does not equally enjoin it? It will be worthy of a free, enlightened, and at no distant period a great nation to give to mankind the magnanimous and too novel example of a people always guided by an exalted justice and benevolence. Who can doubt that in the course of time and things the fruits of such a plan would richly repay any temporary advantages which might be lost by a steady adherence to it? Can it be that Providence has not connected the permanent felicity of a nation with its virtue? The experiment, at least, is recommended by every sentiment which ennobles human nature. Alas! is it rendered impossible by its vices?

In the execution of such a plan nothing is more essential than that permanent, inveterate antipathies against particular nations and passionate attachments for others should be excluded, and that in place of them just and amicable feelings toward all should be cultivated. The nation which indulges toward another an habitual hatred or an habitual fondness is in some degree a slave. It is a slave to its animosity or to its affection, either of which is sufficient to lead it astray from its duty and its interest. Antipathy in one nation against another disposes each more readily to offer insult and injury, to lay hold of slight causes of umbrage, and to be haughty and intractable when accidental or trifling occasions of dispute occur.

Hence frequent collisions, obstinate, envenomed, and bloody contests. The nation prompted by ill will and resentment sometimes impels to war the government contrary to the best calculations of policy. The government sometimes participates in the national propensity, and adopts through passion what reason would reject. At other times it makes the animosity of the nation subservient to projects of hostility, instigated by pride, ambition, and other sinister and pernicious motives. The peace often, sometimes perhaps the liberty, of nations has been the victim.

So, likewise, a passionate attachment of one nation for another produces a variety of evils. Sympathy for the favorite nation, facilitating the illusion of an imaginary common interest in cases where no real common interest exists, and infusing into one the enmities of the other, betrays the former into a participation in the quarrels and wars of the latter without adequate inducement or justification. It leads also to concessions to the favorite nation of privileges denied to others, which is apt doubly to injure the nation making the concessions by unnecessarily parting with what ought to have been retained, and by exciting jealousy, ill will, and a disposition to retaliate in the parties from whom equal privileges are withheld; and it gives to ambitious, corrupted, or deluded citizens (who devote themselves to the favorite nation) facility to betray or sacrifice the interests of their own country without odium, sometimes even with popularity, gilding with the appearances of a virtuous sense of obligation, a commendable deference for public opinion, or a laudable zeal for public good the base or foolish compliances of ambition, corruption, or infatuation.

As avenues to foreign influence in innumerable ways, such attachments are particularly alarming to the truly enlightened and independent patriot. How many opportunities do they afford to tamper with domestic factions, to practice the arts of seduction, to mislead public opinion, to influence or awe the public councils! Such an attachment of a small or weak toward a great and powerful nation dooms the former to be the satellite of the latter. Against the insidious wiles of foreign influence (I conjure you to believe me, fellow-citizens) the jealousy of a free people ought to be constantly awake, since history and experience prove that foreign influence is one of the most baneful foes of republican government. But that jealousy, to be useful, must be impartial, else it becomes the instrument of the very influence to be avoided, instead of a defense against it. Excessive partiality for one foreign nation and excessive dislike of another cause those whom they actuate to see danger only on one side, and serve to veil and even second the arts of influence on the other. Real patriots who may resist the intrigues of the favorite are liable to become suspected and odious, while its tools and dupes usurp the applause and confidence of the people to surrender their interests.

The great rule of conduct for us in regard to foreign nations is, in extending our commercial relations to have with them as little political connection as possible. So far as we have already formed engagements let them be fulfilled with perfect good faith. Here let us stop.

Europe has a set of primary interests which to us have none or a very remote relation. Hence she must be engaged in frequent controversies, the causes of which are essentially foreign to our concerns. Hence, therefore, it must be unwise in us to implicate ourselves by artificial ties in the ordinary vicissitudes of her politics or the ordinary combinations and collisions of her friendships or enmities.

Our detached and distant situation invites and enables us to pursue a different course. If we remain one people, under an efficient government, the period is not far off when we may defy material injury from external annoyance; when we may take such an attitude as will cause the neutrality we may at any time resolve upon to be scrupulously respected; when belligerent nations, under the impossibility of making acquisitions upon us, will not lightly hazard the giving us provocation; when we may choose peace or war, as our interest, guided by justice, shall counsel.

Why forego the advantages of so peculiar a situation? Why quit our own to stand upon foreign ground? Why, by interweaving our destiny with that of any part of Europe, entangle our peace and prosperity in the toils of European ambition, rivalship, interest, humor, or caprice?

It is our true policy to steer clear of permanent alliances with any portion of the foreign world, so far, I mean, as we are now at liberty to do it; for let me not be understood as capable of patronizing infidelity to existing engagements. I hold the maxim no less applicable to public than to private affairs that honesty is always the best policy. I repeat, therefore, let those engagements be observed in their genuine sense. But in my opinion it is unnecessary and would be unwise to extend them.

Taking care always to keep ourselves by suitable establishments on a respectable defensive posture, we may safely trust to temporary alliances for extraordinary emergencies.

Harmony, liberal intercourse with all nations are recommended by policy, humanity, and interest. But even our commercial policy should hold an equal and impartial hand, neither seeking nor granting exclusive favors or preferences; consulting the natural course of things; diffusing and diversifying by gentle means the streams of commerce, but forcing nothing; establishing with powers so disposed, in order to give trade a stable course, to define the rights of our merchants, and to enable the Government to support them, conventional rules of intercourse, the best that present circumstances and mutual opinion will permit, but temporary and liable to be from time to time abandoned or varied as experience and circumstances shall dictate; constantly keeping in view that it is folly in one nation to look for disinterested favors from another; that it must pay with a portion of its independence for whatever it may accept under that character; that by such acceptance it may place itself in the condition of having given equivalents for nominal favors, and yet of being reproached with ingratitude for not giving more. There can be no greater error than to expect or calculate upon real favors from nation to nation. It is an illusion which experience must cure, which a just pride ought to discard.

George Washington
I found that part in bold to be particularly amusing, as you are indeed demanding the Ukrainians to surrender their interests so that you may....what?.....exactly what is the gain, other than to Russia, from the policy you propose?


It does Ukraine no good to continue to fight a bloody and costly war trying to get back two areas (Donbas and Crimea) that are filled with ethnic Russians and who Ukraine can not reconquer.

The long term interest of Ukrainians is to rebuild their economy and country...and become a part of the rich trading bloc know as the EU.

And one day NATO.

None of that is going to happen while they are in an active war.
The critics of US support for Ukraine never, ever address that question. How are American interests enhanced by letting Russia nibble off pieces of whatever sovereign nations it decides is "in their sphere of interests?"
We serve our interests first of all by not lying to ourselves and each other about Russian intentions. We're told daily that Putin has declared his enmity to the West and his intention to conquer Europe. Yet any reading of his actual words shows the opposite. There's no end of ways in which we benefit from peace. We avoid the cost of the immediate conflict and the risks of a wider one. We avoid humiliating ourselves when our grandiose designs fail, as they consistently do. We avoid alienating our allies and provoking our enemies. Europe is enriched with energy and other benefits of trade with its neighbor. We're free to attend to our own problems, like debt, immigration, health care, infrastructure…the list goes on.
We should not agree to any peace which rewards Russia for the war they started. Reasonable people could of course disagree on that, but they would have to provide reasons for why such would benefit US interests. As of this date, they have not.
I just did. As of this date, you haven't provided any example of Putin threatening NATO.
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