Sam Lowry said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

MOSCOW (AP) Russian President Vladimir Putin announced plans on Saturday to station tactical nuclear weapons in neighboring Belarus, a warning to the West as it steps up military support for Ukraine.

Putin said the move was triggered by Britain's decision this past week to provide Ukraine with armor-piercing rounds containing depleted uranium.

Putin argued that by deploying its tactical nuclear weapons in Belarus, Russia was following the lead of the United States, noting that the U.S. has nuclear weapons based in Belgium, Germany, Italy, the Netherlands and Turkey.

"We are doing what they have been doing for decades, stationing them in certain allied countries, preparing the launch platforms and training their crews," Putin said, speaking in an interview on state television that aired Saturday night. "We are going to do the same thing."

https://apnews.com/article/russia-belarus-nuclear-weapons-2d9584534da25c00c56dbf7b14694e0e

---

Thank you for posting some corroboration of my assessments above.

if we do as the war critics demand, Ukraine falls into Russian orbit just like Belarus and we have even more tactical nuke sites to worry about.

How on earth are safer if we adopt policies that would allow Russia to position tactical nukes on the borders of Slovakia, Hungary, and Romania?

---

How on earth are we safer if we adopt policies that would allow us to position tactical nukes on the border of Russia?

---

WE would be safer.

Russia would not.

But it's all academic, as we were not contemplating policies which would do that.

---

I suppose you think withdrawing from the INF Treaty was a good idea too?

---

Why would we remain in a treaty the other party is not honoring?

---

The only thing Putin understands is force. You have to be able to knock him down or in Judo talk get him in a terminal hold. Otherwise, he believes he has the upper hand. The best defense against Russia is demonstrating strength and the will to use it. Period. Putin is not as deep as people make him out to be. Look at the pictures he puts out, all are heavy masculine, shirt off, and independent images. I can't find one at a cultural event or academic. He does not respect those things, if not backed by force and strength.

Xi, is a different animal all together. He is more intellectual, opportunistic and willing to win on multiple fronts. He does not need to be the "Alpha-Male" to win.

---

No offense, but this sounds more like dialogue from a GI Joe cartoon than a sober analysis of real world adversaries.

---

Female ruZZian combat medics serving in Ukraine are allegedly being pressed into becoming so-called “field wives” — or sex slaves.https://t.co/0esIIYZTDQ

— Mavka Slavka 🧜‍♀️🌻 (@MavkaSlavka) March 29, 2023

We are fueling a proxy war in Ukraine in order to defend freedom, such as the freedom to censor dissenting views on our proxy war in Ukraine. https://t.co/tqzqg8pVYX

— Aaron Maté (@aaronjmate) March 31, 2023

RMF5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

MOSCOW (AP) Russian President Vladimir Putin announced plans on Saturday to station tactical nuclear weapons in neighboring Belarus, a warning to the West as it steps up military support for Ukraine.

Putin said the move was triggered by Britain's decision this past week to provide Ukraine with armor-piercing rounds containing depleted uranium.

Putin argued that by deploying its tactical nuclear weapons in Belarus, Russia was following the lead of the United States, noting that the U.S. has nuclear weapons based in Belgium, Germany, Italy, the Netherlands and Turkey.

"We are doing what they have been doing for decades, stationing them in certain allied countries, preparing the launch platforms and training their crews," Putin said, speaking in an interview on state television that aired Saturday night. "We are going to do the same thing."

https://apnews.com/article/russia-belarus-nuclear-weapons-2d9584534da25c00c56dbf7b14694e0e

---

Thank you for posting some corroboration of my assessments above.

if we do as the war critics demand, Ukraine falls into Russian orbit just like Belarus and we have even more tactical nuke sites to worry about.

How on earth are safer if we adopt policies that would allow Russia to position tactical nukes on the borders of Slovakia, Hungary, and Romania?

---

How on earth are we safer if we adopt policies that would allow us to position tactical nukes on the border of Russia?

---

WE would be safer.

Russia would not.

But it's all academic, as we were not contemplating policies which would do that.

---

I suppose you think withdrawing from the INF Treaty was a good idea too?

---

Why would we remain in a treaty the other party is not honoring?

---

The only thing Putin understands is force. You have to be able to knock him down or in Judo talk get him in a terminal hold. Otherwise, he believes he has the upper hand. The best defense against Russia is demonstrating strength and the will to use it. Period. Putin is not as deep as people make him out to be. Look at the pictures he puts out, all are heavy masculine, shirt off, and independent images. I can't find one at a cultural event or academic. He does not respect those things, if not backed by force and strength.

Xi, is a different animal all together. He is more intellectual, opportunistic and willing to win on multiple fronts. He does not need to be the "Alpha-Male" to win.

---

No offense, but this sounds more like dialogue from a GI Joe cartoon than a sober analysis of real world adversaries.

---

None taken. Doesn't make it untrue...

---

It's the same thing they always say.

Sam Lowry said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

MOSCOW (AP) Russian President Vladimir Putin announced plans on Saturday to station tactical nuclear weapons in neighboring Belarus, a warning to the West as it steps up military support for Ukraine.

Putin said the move was triggered by Britain's decision this past week to provide Ukraine with armor-piercing rounds containing depleted uranium.

Putin argued that by deploying its tactical nuclear weapons in Belarus, Russia was following the lead of the United States, noting that the U.S. has nuclear weapons based in Belgium, Germany, Italy, the Netherlands and Turkey.

"We are doing what they have been doing for decades, stationing them in certain allied countries, preparing the launch platforms and training their crews," Putin said, speaking in an interview on state television that aired Saturday night. "We are going to do the same thing."

https://apnews.com/article/russia-belarus-nuclear-weapons-2d9584534da25c00c56dbf7b14694e0e

---

Thank you for posting some corroboration of my assessments above.

if we do as the war critics demand, Ukraine falls into Russian orbit just like Belarus and we have even more tactical nuke sites to worry about.

How on earth are safer if we adopt policies that would allow Russia to position tactical nukes on the borders of Slovakia, Hungary, and Romania?

---

How on earth are we safer if we adopt policies that would allow us to position tactical nukes on the border of Russia?

---

WE would be safer.

Russia would not.

But it's all academic, as we were not contemplating policies which would do that.

---

I suppose you think withdrawing from the INF Treaty was a good idea too?

---

Why would we remain in a treaty the other party is not honoring?

---

The only thing Putin understands is force. You have to be able to knock him down or in Judo talk get him in a terminal hold. Otherwise, he believes he has the upper hand. The best defense against Russia is demonstrating strength and the will to use it. Period. Putin is not as deep as people make him out to be. Look at the pictures he puts out, all are heavy masculine, shirt off, and independent images. I can't find one at a cultural event or academic. He does not respect those things, if not backed by force and strength.

Xi, is a different animal all together. He is more intellectual, opportunistic and willing to win on multiple fronts. He does not need to be the "Alpha-Male" to win.

---

No offense, but this sounds more like dialogue from a GI Joe cartoon than a sober analysis of real world adversaries.

---

None taken. Doesn't make it untrue...

---

It's the same thing they always say.

---

Give us an example of Putin not having his shirt off and showing restraint.

Redbrickbear said:

---

We are fueling a proxy war in Ukraine in order to defend freedom, such as the freedom to censor dissenting views on our proxy war in Ukraine. https://t.co/tqzqg8pVYX

— Aaron Maté (@aaronjmate) March 31, 2023

---

"War is peace and there will be penalties if you say otherwise".

They'd love to censor stuff like this which is full on video proof of shenanigans:

McCain and Miss Lindsey in Ukraine 2016 setting the stage for a war with Russia in 2017.

“Your fight is our fight. 2017 will be the year of offense. We'll go back to Washington and push the case against Russia." pic.twitter.com/83WMLm3kSU

— Nuno (@VonDerMina) March 20, 2023

Russia will end this war with Ukraine under terms acceptable to Putin within the next 18 months . Terms that will result in the loss in at least 20-25% of Ukrainian territory to Russia .

Only the direct involvement of US forces fighting on behalf of Ukraine can prevent Putin's victory .

And there is only a 40% chance of that occurring.

KaiBear said:

---

Russia will end this war with Ukraine under terms acceptable to Putin within the next 18 months . Terms that will result in the loss in at least 20-25% of Ukrainian territory to Russia .

Only the direct involvement of US forces fighting on behalf of Ukraine can prevent Putin's victory .

And that's only 40% chance of occurring.

---

Agreed, except that it won't take 18 months and there's not even a 40% chance we'll commit troops. We're doing this to hurt Russia, not to help Ukraine.

Putin has already won of course and beaten Obama and Biden yet again

The west is already quietly winding down their financial support

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

MOSCOW (AP) Russian President Vladimir Putin announced plans on Saturday to station tactical nuclear weapons in neighboring Belarus, a warning to the West as it steps up military support for Ukraine.

Putin said the move was triggered by Britain's decision this past week to provide Ukraine with armor-piercing rounds containing depleted uranium.

Putin argued that by deploying its tactical nuclear weapons in Belarus, Russia was following the lead of the United States, noting that the U.S. has nuclear weapons based in Belgium, Germany, Italy, the Netherlands and Turkey.

"We are doing what they have been doing for decades, stationing them in certain allied countries, preparing the launch platforms and training their crews," Putin said, speaking in an interview on state television that aired Saturday night. "We are going to do the same thing."

https://apnews.com/article/russia-belarus-nuclear-weapons-2d9584534da25c00c56dbf7b14694e0e

---

Thank you for posting some corroboration of my assessments above.

if we do as the war critics demand, Ukraine falls into Russian orbit just like Belarus and we have even more tactical nuke sites to worry about.

How on earth are safer if we adopt policies that would allow Russia to position tactical nukes on the borders of Slovakia, Hungary, and Romania?

---

How on earth are we safer if we adopt policies that would allow us to position tactical nukes on the border of Russia?

---

WE would be safer.

Russia would not.

But it's all academic, as we were not contemplating policies which would do that.

---

I suppose you think withdrawing from the INF Treaty was a good idea too?

---

Why would we remain in a treaty the other party is not honoring?

---

Both sides have accused each other of violations. That has nothing to do with why the treaty collapsed.

---

so your argument is that both sides are violating it but it's still a very bad idea for the US to withdraw from it?

Sam Lowry said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

Russia will end this war with Ukraine under terms acceptable to Putin within the next 18 months . Terms that will result in the loss in at least 20-25% of Ukrainian territory to Russia .

Only the direct involvement of US forces fighting on behalf of Ukraine can prevent Putin's victory .

And that's only 40% chance of occurring.

---

Agreed, except that it won't take 18 months and there's not even a 40% chance we'll commit troops. We're doing this to hurt Russia, not to help Ukraine.

---

bookmark these two assessments. They will not age well.

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

Russia will end this war with Ukraine under terms acceptable to Putin within the next 18 months . Terms that will result in the loss in at least 20-25% of Ukrainian territory to Russia .

Only the direct involvement of US forces fighting on behalf of Ukraine can prevent Putin's victory .

And that's only 40% chance of occurring.

---

Agreed, except that it won't take 18 months and there's not even a 40% chance we'll commit troops. We're doing this to hurt Russia, not to help Ukraine.

---

bookmark these two assessments. They will not age well.

---

Interesting response. You've spent the last year fervently denying that anyone would even think of sending US troops.

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

Russia will end this war with Ukraine under terms acceptable to Putin within the next 18 months . Terms that will result in the loss in at least 20-25% of Ukrainian territory to Russia .

Only the direct involvement of US forces fighting on behalf of Ukraine can prevent Putin's victory .

And that's only 40% chance of occurring.

---

Agreed, except that it won't take 18 months and there's not even a 40% chance we'll commit troops. We're doing this to hurt Russia, not to help Ukraine.

---

bookmark these two assessments. They will not age well.

---

Interesting response. You've spent the last year fervently denying that anyone would even think of sending US troops.

---

I was talking about KaiBear's post.
Fact: the only people talking about use of US troops are the ones opposed to our support for Ukraine, desperately trying to insert the idea as a strawman to undermine support for the war.

If/when such is proposed, you can count on me to oppose it. Fortunately, that will not likely happen, as Ukraine still has a 7-digit number of citizens eligible for service. I.E. It'll be a long time before we run out of Ukrainians to do the fighting.

Bleak, they really are "fighting to the last Ukrainian" https://t.co/1jODgGmJWH

— Chairman (@LRH_Superfan) April 2, 2023

Redbrickbear said:

---

Bleak, they really are "fighting to the last Ukrainian" https://t.co/1jODgGmJWH

— Chairman (@LRH_Superfan) April 2, 2023

---

Article is, at best, a case of confirmation bias.

What is the number of Ukrainian war dead? (a 6-digits number).
What is the number of Ukrainian refugees abroad? (a 7-digit number)

95% of that red part of the demographic chart is easily recoverable.

Prominent Pro-Kremlin Blogger Killed In St. Petersburg Cafe Bombing, 15 Injured https://t.co/y0KQxUZ78Q

— zerohedge (@zerohedge) April 2, 2023

Remember this the next time anemic German defense spending is discussed. It’s not that they can’t properly contribute their fair share to NATO, the German elite doesn’t want to https://t.co/sK9h5hCQTB

— mark safranski (@zenpundit) April 2, 2023

RMF5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

MOSCOW (AP) Russian President Vladimir Putin announced plans on Saturday to station tactical nuclear weapons in neighboring Belarus, a warning to the West as it steps up military support for Ukraine.

Putin said the move was triggered by Britain's decision this past week to provide Ukraine with armor-piercing rounds containing depleted uranium.

Putin argued that by deploying its tactical nuclear weapons in Belarus, Russia was following the lead of the United States, noting that the U.S. has nuclear weapons based in Belgium, Germany, Italy, the Netherlands and Turkey.

"We are doing what they have been doing for decades, stationing them in certain allied countries, preparing the launch platforms and training their crews," Putin said, speaking in an interview on state television that aired Saturday night. "We are going to do the same thing."

https://apnews.com/article/russia-belarus-nuclear-weapons-2d9584534da25c00c56dbf7b14694e0e

---

Thank you for posting some corroboration of my assessments above.

if we do as the war critics demand, Ukraine falls into Russian orbit just like Belarus and we have even more tactical nuke sites to worry about.

How on earth are safer if we adopt policies that would allow Russia to position tactical nukes on the borders of Slovakia, Hungary, and Romania?

---

How on earth are we safer if we adopt policies that would allow us to position tactical nukes on the border of Russia?

---

WE would be safer.

Russia would not.

But it's all academic, as we were not contemplating policies which would do that.

---

I suppose you think withdrawing from the INF Treaty was a good idea too?

---

Why would we remain in a treaty the other party is not honoring?

---

The only thing Putin understands is force. You have to be able to knock him down or in Judo talk get him in a terminal hold. Otherwise, he believes he has the upper hand. The best defense against Russia is demonstrating strength and the will to use it. Period. Putin is not as deep as people make him out to be. Look at the pictures he puts out, all are heavy masculine, shirt off, and independent images. I can't find one at a cultural event or academic. He does not respect those things, if not backed by force and strength.

Xi, is a different animal all together. He is more intellectual, opportunistic and willing to win on multiple fronts. He does not need to be the "Alpha-Male" to win.

---

No offense, but this sounds more like dialogue from a GI Joe cartoon than a sober analysis of real world adversaries.

---

None taken. Doesn't make it untrue...

---

It's the same thing they always say.

---

Give us an example of Putin not having his shirt off and showing restraint.

---

Sure.

Quote:

---

Putin Says 'Why Not?' to Russia Joining NATO
By David Hoffman
March 6, 2000

Acting Russian President Vladimir Putin, in an unexpected gesture to the West, suggested in a television interview today that Russia would consider joining NATO if the Western alliance agreed to treat Russia as an equal partner.

"Why not? Why not?" Putin said when asked by BBC interviewer David Frost about Russian membership. "I do not rule out such a possibility . . . in the case that Russia's interests will be reckoned with, if it will be an equal partner."

"Russia is a part of European culture, and I do not consider my own country in isolation from Europe and from . . . what we often talk about as the civilized world," Putin said. "Therefore, it is with difficulty that I imagine NATO as an enemy."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/2000/03/06/putin-says-why-not-to-russia-joining-nato/c1973032-c10f-4bff-9174-8cae673790cd/

---

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Bleak, they really are "fighting to the last Ukrainian" https://t.co/1jODgGmJWH

— Chairman (@LRH_Superfan) April 2, 2023

---

95% of that red part of the demographic chart is easily recoverable.

---

Not during the war, if ever.

"It is not in America’s, Europe’s or Ukraine’s interest for the us to send over $115 Billion in aid, much of it lethal arms, without taking care to ensure it doesn’t get redirected to corrupt bureaucrats or worse" — @ssharmaUShttps://t.co/GK3LFVkB6z

— Responsible Statecraft (@RStatecraft) April 2, 2023

Supposedly someone gave him a miniature bust of his own head at a speaking event, and the bust was actually an explosive, there is even a video of him receiving the bust. Very devious and clever.

If Russia wants to bomb civilians and critical infrastructure, then this kind of stuff is fair game imo.

If y'all like killing bloggers, you're going to love attacking churches.

Quote:

---

Showdown at the Lavra

Zelensky has given the monks of Kiev's most sacred Orthodox monastery until next week to evacuate. They say they're not leaving.

Tim Andrews
Mar 22, 2023

Tens of thousands of Kiev residents took to the streets earlier this week in protest and prayer. The reason was an announcement on March 10 by the Zelensky government that the Ukrainian Orthodox Church (UOC) would have to relinquish control of the Kiev-Pechersk Lavra, a large monastery complex that includes the Holy Dormition cathedral and monastery, the church's headquarters. The monks have been given until March 29 to leave.

The lavra was founded in 1051 and is the spiritual home of Orthodoxy in Ukraine. It fell into disrepair during the Soviet era. The Holy Dormition cathedral was turned into an anti-religious museum, and many structures in the complex were destroyed. In 1988, the millennium of Slavic Christianity, Mikhail Gorbachev allowed monks to return. Over the following years, the UOC slowly repaired the damaged buildings and rebuilt the lavra into a thriving religious site. It is that church that the government is now evicting.

This eviction is an escalation of the wave of persecution that began late last year, on the pretext that the church is under Russian control. The UOC is in fact independent and not subordinate to the Moscow patriarchate. Its leader, Metropolitan Onufriy, has unequivocally condemned the Russian invasion from the very beginning, saying it has "no justification either with God or men" and has "brought death and destruction to the Ukrainian land."

https://www.theamericanconservative.com/showdown-at-the-lavra/

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

If y'all like killing bloggers, you're going to love attacking churches.

Quote:

---

Showdown at the Lavra

Zelensky has given the monks of Kiev's most sacred Orthodox monastery until next week to evacuate. They say they're not leaving.

Tim Andrews
Mar 22, 2023

Tens of thousands of Kiev residents took to the streets earlier this week in protest and prayer. The reason was an announcement on March 10 by the Zelensky government that the Ukrainian Orthodox Church (UOC) would have to relinquish control of the Kiev-Pechersk Lavra, a large monastery complex that includes the Holy Dormition cathedral and monastery, the church's headquarters. The monks have been given until March 29 to leave.

The lavra was founded in 1051 and is the spiritual home of Orthodoxy in Ukraine. It fell into disrepair during the Soviet era. The Holy Dormition cathedral was turned into an anti-religious museum, and many structures in the complex were destroyed. In 1988, the millennium of Slavic Christianity, Mikhail Gorbachev allowed monks to return. Over the following years, the UOC slowly repaired the damaged buildings and rebuilt the lavra into a thriving religious site. It is that church that the government is now evicting.

This eviction is an escalation of the wave of persecution that began late last year, on the pretext that the church is under Russian control. The UOC is in fact independent and not subordinate to the Moscow patriarchate. Its leader, Metropolitan Onufriy, has unequivocally condemned the Russian invasion from the very beginning, saying it has "no justification either with God or men" and has "brought death and destruction to the Ukrainian land."

https://www.theamericanconservative.com/showdown-at-the-lavra/

---

---

This was a Zelensky mistake. This move is a clear, understandable and symbolic place that will allow his opponents to crystalize their point. This move gives Putin's claims credence and will bring question to Zelensky's credibility in the West.

Russian channels are saying there was an explosion in a cafe in St. Petersburg where well-known Russian mil blogger/combatant Vladlen Tatarsky was holding an event. There are reports that he was killed. https://t.co/6JT1OGfeojhttps://t.co/fEZiP8JN7Uhttps://t.co/8GVP3RJQ6A pic.twitter.com/wIjuju9J4L

— Rob Lee (@RALee85) April 2, 2023

Blogged, held a high rank in Wagner, led troops in battle, and procured money and military equipment for Wagner. Yeah, typical blogger stuff.

And thinking this could be a 100% Ukrainian op just means you haven't been paying attention. The in-fighting between different RU groups is well documented in this conflict.

When is this damn war going to be over with?!

Sam Lowry said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

MOSCOW (AP) Russian President Vladimir Putin announced plans on Saturday to station tactical nuclear weapons in neighboring Belarus, a warning to the West as it steps up military support for Ukraine.

Putin said the move was triggered by Britain's decision this past week to provide Ukraine with armor-piercing rounds containing depleted uranium.

Putin argued that by deploying its tactical nuclear weapons in Belarus, Russia was following the lead of the United States, noting that the U.S. has nuclear weapons based in Belgium, Germany, Italy, the Netherlands and Turkey.

"We are doing what they have been doing for decades, stationing them in certain allied countries, preparing the launch platforms and training their crews," Putin said, speaking in an interview on state television that aired Saturday night. "We are going to do the same thing."

https://apnews.com/article/russia-belarus-nuclear-weapons-2d9584534da25c00c56dbf7b14694e0e

---

Thank you for posting some corroboration of my assessments above.

if we do as the war critics demand, Ukraine falls into Russian orbit just like Belarus and we have even more tactical nuke sites to worry about.

How on earth are safer if we adopt policies that would allow Russia to position tactical nukes on the borders of Slovakia, Hungary, and Romania?

---

How on earth are we safer if we adopt policies that would allow us to position tactical nukes on the border of Russia?

---

WE would be safer.

Russia would not.

But it's all academic, as we were not contemplating policies which would do that.

---

I suppose you think withdrawing from the INF Treaty was a good idea too?

---

Why would we remain in a treaty the other party is not honoring?

---

The only thing Putin understands is force. You have to be able to knock him down or in Judo talk get him in a terminal hold. Otherwise, he believes he has the upper hand. The best defense against Russia is demonstrating strength and the will to use it. Period. Putin is not as deep as people make him out to be. Look at the pictures he puts out, all are heavy masculine, shirt off, and independent images. I can't find one at a cultural event or academic. He does not respect those things, if not backed by force and strength.

Xi, is a different animal all together. He is more intellectual, opportunistic and willing to win on multiple fronts. He does not need to be the "Alpha-Male" to win.

---

No offense, but this sounds more like dialogue from a GI Joe cartoon than a sober analysis of real world adversaries.

---

None taken. Doesn't make it untrue...

---

It's the same thing they always say.

---

Give us an example of Putin not having his shirt off and showing restraint.

---

Sure.

Quote:

---

Putin Says 'Why Not?' to Russia Joining NATO
By David Hoffman
March 6, 2000

Acting Russian President Vladimir Putin, in an unexpected gesture to the West, suggested in a television interview today that Russia would consider joining NATO if the Western alliance agreed to treat Russia as an equal partner.

"Why not? Why not?" Putin said when asked by BBC interviewer David Frost about Russian membership. "I do not rule out such a possibility . . . in the case that Russia's interests will be reckoned with, if it will be an equal partner."

"Russia is a part of European culture, and I do not consider my own country in isolation from Europe and from . . . what we often talk about as the civilized world," Putin said. "Therefore, it is with difficulty that I imagine NATO as an enemy."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/2000/03/06/putin-says-why-not-to-russia-joining-nato/c1973032-c10f-4bff-9174-8cae673790cd/

---

---

We had a short window to have a different relationship with Russia. We (both) missed it. The evolution of the dynamic since then has been backwards and nefarious. And it isn't big bad USA at the head of that process. When the oligarchs and oil money got lucrative, Russian power, politics, and foreign policy changed dramatically.

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Bleak, they really are "fighting to the last Ukrainian" https://t.co/1jODgGmJWH

— Chairman (@LRH_Superfan) April 2, 2023

---

95% of that red part of the demographic chart is easily recoverable.

---

Not during the war, if ever.

---

The war will not last for ever.

Most in NATO countries will return.

Whether the millions Russia has deported to remote locations within the Russian Federation will be returned or not will depend up on the terms of the peace settlement.

RMF5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

If y'all like killing bloggers, you're going to love attacking churches.

Quote:

---

Showdown at the Lavra

Zelensky has given the monks of Kiev's most sacred Orthodox monastery until next week to evacuate. They say they're not leaving.

Tim Andrews
Mar 22, 2023

Tens of thousands of Kiev residents took to the streets earlier this week in protest and prayer. The reason was an announcement on March 10 by the Zelensky government that the Ukrainian Orthodox Church (UOC) would have to relinquish control of the Kiev-Pechersk Lavra, a large monastery complex that includes the Holy Dormition cathedral and monastery, the church's headquarters. The monks have been given until March 29 to leave.

The lavra was founded in 1051 and is the spiritual home of Orthodoxy in Ukraine. It fell into disrepair during the Soviet era. The Holy Dormition cathedral was turned into an anti-religious museum, and many structures in the complex were destroyed. In 1988, the millennium of Slavic Christianity, Mikhail Gorbachev allowed monks to return. Over the following years, the UOC slowly repaired the damaged buildings and rebuilt the lavra into a thriving religious site. It is that church that the government is now evicting.

This eviction is an escalation of the wave of persecution that began late last year, on the pretext that the church is under Russian control. The UOC is in fact independent and not subordinate to the Moscow patriarchate. Its leader, Metropolitan Onufriy, has unequivocally condemned the Russian invasion from the very beginning, saying it has "no justification either with God or men" and has "brought death and destruction to the Ukrainian land."

https://www.theamericanconservative.com/showdown-at-the-lavra/

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This was a Zelensky mistake. This move is a clear, understandable and symbolic place that will allow his opponents to crystalize their point. This move gives Putin's claims credence and will bring question to Zelensky's credibility in the West.

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Disagree.

The Ukrainian church has effectively split into pro-Ukrainian and pro-Russian camps. Metropolitan Pavlo (aka Pavlo Lebed) is head of the "Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the Moscow Patriarchate (UOC-MP)." This facility is dominated by the pro-Russian faction. The UOC-MP did not break ties with the Russian Orthodox Church until May last year, long after the war started.


Zelensky is not cracking down on religion. he is cracking down on Russian sympathizers in control of a large faction of a major societal institution. He has shown considerable restraint. He has escalated pressure appropriately. And his action is proportionate to circumstances. He's taking control of a building being used to promote Russian interests. and. The Ukrainian government OWNS the building in question. So it's an eviction, not a seizing pursuant to forfeiture.


https://www.upi.com/Top_News/World-News/2023/04/01/Ukraine-Russia-orthodox-church-Pavel-Lebed/4151680377371/

whiterock said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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whiterock said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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Bleak, they really are "fighting to the last Ukrainian" https://t.co/1jODgGmJWH

— Chairman (@LRH_Superfan) April 2, 2023

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95% of that red part of the demographic chart is easily recoverable.

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Not during the war, if ever.

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The war will not last for ever.

Most in NATO countries will return.

Whether the millions Russia has deported to remote locations within the Russian Federation will be returned or not will depend up on the terms of the peace settlement.

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You sure about that.

Why would millions of Ukrainians return to a country that is war torn, poor, and corrupt...when by the time the war ends they will have jobs, homes, and a future in Central and Western European countries?

At the very least no one can claim its a 100% certain these millions of Ukrainians will ever move home.

https://qz.com/ukraine-russia-war-enters-second-year-ukrainians-return-1850154535

5.6 million have already returned to their original home.

Bear8084 said:

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https://qz.com/ukraine-russia-war-enters-second-year-ukrainians-return-1850154535

5.6 million have already returned to their original home.

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"The biggest contingent, UNHCR notes, is older people who may have struggled to integrate abroad."

So 75% of those returning home are the pensioner age cohort...not the young workers needed to revive the economy.

https://www.newsweek.com/2023/03/10/one-year-war-millions-ukrainians-may-never-return-home-1782832.html#:~:text=One%20Year%20into%20War%2C%20Millions%20of%20Ukrainians%20May%20Never%20Return%20Home,-By%20Michael%20Wasiura&text=One%20year%20since%20the%20start,crisis%20of%20the%2021st%20century.

whiterock said:

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RMF5630 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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If y'all like killing bloggers, you're going to love attacking churches.

Quote:

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Showdown at the Lavra

Zelensky has given the monks of Kiev's most sacred Orthodox monastery until next week to evacuate. They say they're not leaving.

Tim Andrews
Mar 22, 2023

Tens of thousands of Kiev residents took to the streets earlier this week in protest and prayer. The reason was an announcement on March 10 by the Zelensky government that the Ukrainian Orthodox Church (UOC) would have to relinquish control of the Kiev-Pechersk Lavra, a large monastery complex that includes the Holy Dormition cathedral and monastery, the church's headquarters. The monks have been given until March 29 to leave.

The lavra was founded in 1051 and is the spiritual home of Orthodoxy in Ukraine. It fell into disrepair during the Soviet era. The Holy Dormition cathedral was turned into an anti-religious museum, and many structures in the complex were destroyed. In 1988, the millennium of Slavic Christianity, Mikhail Gorbachev allowed monks to return. Over the following years, the UOC slowly repaired the damaged buildings and rebuilt the lavra into a thriving religious site. It is that church that the government is now evicting.

This eviction is an escalation of the wave of persecution that began late last year, on the pretext that the church is under Russian control. The UOC is in fact independent and not subordinate to the Moscow patriarchate. Its leader, Metropolitan Onufriy, has unequivocally condemned the Russian invasion from the very beginning, saying it has "no justification either with God or men" and has "brought death and destruction to the Ukrainian land."

https://www.theamericanconservative.com/showdown-at-the-lavra/

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This was a Zelensky mistake. This move is a clear, understandable and symbolic place that will allow his opponents to crystalize their point. This move gives Putin's claims credence and will bring question to Zelensky's credibility in the West.

---

Disagree.

The Ukrainian church has effectively split into pro-Ukrainian and pro-Russian camps. Metropolitan Pavlo (aka Pavlo Lebed) is head of the "Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the Moscow Patriarchate (UOC-MP)." This facility is dominated by the pro-Russian faction. The UOC-MP did not break ties with the Russian Orthodox Church until May last year, long after the war started.


Zelensky is not cracking down on religion. he is cracking down on Russian sympathizers in control of a large faction of a major societal institution. He has shown considerable restraint. He has escalated pressure appropriately. And his action is proportionate to circumstances. He's taking control of a building being used to promote Russian interests. and. The Ukrainian government OWNS the building in question. So it's an eviction, not a seizing pursuant to forfeiture.


https://www.upi.com/Top_News/World-News/2023/04/01/Ukraine-Russia-orthodox-church-Pavel-Lebed/4151680377371/

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Try selling that to the world as they take the Monks, whose Order has been there sine 1051, into custody or worse yet remove them by force. Zelensky is going to lose in the Courts of Public Opinion, which WILL influence support. Stupid move at this point in time, even if he is right. He can't win this battle over this site.

Redbrickbear said:

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whiterock said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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whiterock said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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Bleak, they really are "fighting to the last Ukrainian" https://t.co/1jODgGmJWH

— Chairman (@LRH_Superfan) April 2, 2023

---

95% of that red part of the demographic chart is easily recoverable.

---

Not during the war, if ever.

---

The war will not last for ever.

Most in NATO countries will return.

Whether the millions Russia has deported to remote locations within the Russian Federation will be returned or not will depend up on the terms of the peace settlement.

---

You sure about that.

Why would millions of Ukrainians return to a country that is war torn, poor, and corrupt...when by the time the war ends they will have jobs, homes, and a future in Central and Western European countries?

At the very least no one can claim its a 100% certain these millions of Ukrainians will ever move home.

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They'll return for the same reason millions have been willing to fight from the start despite what many predicted would result in swift defeat . . . they love their country.

sombear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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whiterock said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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whiterock said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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Bleak, they really are "fighting to the last Ukrainian" https://t.co/1jODgGmJWH

— Chairman (@LRH_Superfan) April 2, 2023

---

95% of that red part of the demographic chart is easily recoverable.

---

Not during the war, if ever.

---

The war will not last for ever.

Most in NATO countries will return.

Whether the millions Russia has deported to remote locations within the Russian Federation will be returned or not will depend up on the terms of the peace settlement.

---

You sure about that.

Why would millions of Ukrainians return to a country that is war torn, poor, and corrupt...when by the time the war ends they will have jobs, homes, and a future in Central and Western European countries?

At the very least no one can claim its a 100% certain these millions of Ukrainians will ever move home.

---

They'll return for the same reason millions have been willing to fight from the start despite what many predicted would result in swift defeat . . . they love their country.

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You don't think the Irish loved their country?

You don't think Italians loved their country?

Or that Syrians loved their country?

Be it war (or poor economic conditions) once mass migration/immigration takes place its very unlikely the young will return from a prosperous area/country/place to another that has less economic prospects or material conditions.