we could speed up the aid and finish it in a lot less time than that for a lot less money than that, and I suspect that's what will happen if we get a Republican president.Doc Holliday said:
How y'all gonna feel in 4 years when this is still ongoing because Joe Biden can get 80+ million votes for term 2 and the tab is a couple trillion dollars?
Russia mobilizes
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whiterock said:we could speed up the aid and finish it in a lot less time than that for a lot less money than that, and I suspect that's what will happen if we get a Republican president.Doc Holliday said:
How y'all gonna feel in 4 years when this is still ongoing because Joe Biden can get 80+ million votes for term 2 and the tab is a couple trillion dollars?
Lol, you're lying to yourself. A President Trump or DeSantis have made it pretty clear what their position is, and it doesn't favor Ukraine.
Now you're projecting onto others the positions you need them to have rather the ones they've stated. Saying you'd end the war in 30 days doesn't say HOW you would do that.HuMcK said:whiterock said:we could speed up the aid and finish it in a lot less time than that for a lot less money than that, and I suspect that's what will happen if we get a Republican president.Doc Holliday said:
How y'all gonna feel in 4 years when this is still ongoing because Joe Biden can get 80+ million votes for term 2 and the tab is a couple trillion dollars?
Lol, you're lying to yourself. A President Trump or DeSantis have made it pretty clear what their position is, and it doesn't favor Ukraine.
I'd do it the same way Reagan ended the Cold War - making it clear to Russia that we were prepared to engage in a mobilization which Russia had no hope of countering - opening up the floodgates of arms and money to Ukraine.....unless Vlad made an immediate and unconditional commitment to withdraw to 2014 boundaries.
They'll cave.
They can't win.
And they know it.
You act like the GOP does not regularly lie to its voters.HuMcK said:whiterock said:we could speed up the aid and finish it in a lot less time than that for a lot less money than that, and I suspect that's what will happen if we get a Republican president.Doc Holliday said:
How y'all gonna feel in 4 years when this is still ongoing because Joe Biden can get 80+ million votes for term 2 and the tab is a couple trillion dollars?
Lol, you're lying to yourself. A President Trump or DeSantis have made it pretty clear what their position is, and it doesn't favor Ukraine.
To win any nomination a Republican candidate is going to have to send up smoke signals to American conservatives about peace and not playing military adventurism in Eastern Europe.
Once elected they will do what the blob in DC wants.
Fat ass war mongering degenerate https://t.co/n9KO8n475J
— Barefoot Johnny Danielson (@realAppleJohn) May 25, 2023
This guy gets winded just speaking. How much longer can he have left?Redbrickbear said:Fat ass war mongering degenerate https://t.co/n9KO8n475J
— Barefoot Johnny Danielson (@realAppleJohn) May 25, 2023
He's headed for hell, so I imagine he will cling to this life with a lot of desperation.He Hate Me said:This guy gets winded just speaking. How much longer can he have left?Redbrickbear said:Fat ass war mongering degenerate https://t.co/n9KO8n475J
— Barefoot Johnny Danielson (@realAppleJohn) May 25, 2023
Redbrickbear said:Fat ass war mongering degenerate https://t.co/n9KO8n475J
— Barefoot Johnny Danielson (@realAppleJohn) May 25, 2023
Julian Assange speaking in 2011: "The goal is to use Afghanistan to wash money out of the tax bases of the US and Europe through Afghanistan and back into the hands of a transnational security elite. The goal is an endless war, not a successful war" #Afghanistan pic.twitter.com/Hg3qVzABBg
— WikiLeaks (@wikileaks) August 18, 2021
Actually, I would love to see Ukraine attack and seize Russian territory. There are no rules in love and war. Be in it to win it. Don't pull a Vietnam and retreat with your tail between your legs. GO FOR IT!! Maybe that would wake up the gullible Russian citizenry.Doc Holliday said:Redbrickbear said:Fat ass war mongering degenerate https://t.co/n9KO8n475J
— Barefoot Johnny Danielson (@realAppleJohn) May 25, 2023Julian Assange speaking in 2011: "The goal is to use Afghanistan to wash money out of the tax bases of the US and Europe through Afghanistan and back into the hands of a transnational security elite. The goal is an endless war, not a successful war" #Afghanistan pic.twitter.com/Hg3qVzABBg
— WikiLeaks (@wikileaks) August 18, 2021
"Never underestimate Joe's ability to **** things up!"
-- Barack Obama
-- Barack Obama
El payaso grande aqui https://t.co/EXJqzPvQxz
— Edward Badgette (@acrimonyand) May 26, 2023
not saying I fully endorse that view for the situation at hand, but must point out that the overriding lesson of Vietnam was to remind everyone of a very old principle of warfare - rarely can one win with a strategy of strategic defensive. At some point, one must strike at the war-making capability of the opponent and destroy it, or the war goes on for as long as the opponent wishes.RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:Actually, I would love to see Ukraine attack and seize Russian territory. There are no rules in love and war. Be in it to win it. Don't pull a Vietnam and retreat with your tail between your legs. GO FOR IT!! Maybe that would wake up the gullible Russian citizenry.Doc Holliday said:Redbrickbear said:Fat ass war mongering degenerate https://t.co/n9KO8n475J
— Barefoot Johnny Danielson (@realAppleJohn) May 25, 2023Julian Assange speaking in 2011: "The goal is to use Afghanistan to wash money out of the tax bases of the US and Europe through Afghanistan and back into the hands of a transnational security elite. The goal is an endless war, not a successful war" #Afghanistan pic.twitter.com/Hg3qVzABBg
— WikiLeaks (@wikileaks) August 18, 2021
a really good POTUS could use a statement like that to strengthen his/her negotiating position.Redbrickbear said:Fat ass war mongering degenerate https://t.co/n9KO8n475J
— Barefoot Johnny Danielson (@realAppleJohn) May 25, 2023
Never let your opponent presume you are unable/unwilling to escalate a conflict.
Explosions in Krasnodar, the Russian approach to the Kerch Bridge. As noted in some of the comments, Ukraine will not want to collapse the bridge immediately. It has psychological impact on Russian solders: as long as the bridge stands, Russian troops know retreat is at least theoretically an option, and that tends to sap morale. The moment the bridge falls, the "to the bitter end" psyche tends to sets in.
In a perfect world, Ukraine takes out the rail line portion of the bridge, and leaves the automotive lanes open. That's what they did last year with the sabotage attack. Russia has good logistics capacity via rail, but severe limitations via truck. So collapsing the rail line accomplishes most of the need for degradation of Russian resupply. Troops, however, can walk/run across whatever part of the bridge that stands......
In a perfect world, Ukraine takes out the rail line portion of the bridge, and leaves the automotive lanes open. That's what they did last year with the sabotage attack. Russia has good logistics capacity via rail, but severe limitations via truck. So collapsing the rail line accomplishes most of the need for degradation of Russian resupply. Troops, however, can walk/run across whatever part of the bridge that stands......
Russia: Explosion in downtown Krasnodar this morning. ~115 miles from the Kerch bridge. (185km) pic.twitter.com/WAVk4SVDOZ
— Igor Sushko (@igorsushko) May 26, 2023
Happening Now:
— 🇺🇸Travis🇺🇸 (@Travis_in_Flint) May 27, 2023
Yesterday US Senator Lindsay Graham flew to Ukraine to assure President Zelensky that the US is still committed to him during the debt ceiling crisis. After speaking to Zelensky he stated the US needs to send more weapons and there can be no backing off.
He… pic.twitter.com/OCH69yB9pg
Lindsey is correct. Russia must LOSE or we will be right back at war within months. Outstanding explanation below. Spot. On.
As preparations for the next phase of the Russo-Ukrainian war are underway, there is an ongoing discussion about the new shape of the security architecture in Europe. Inevitably, in addition to constructive ideas, threatening concepts are also emerging, which aim to hand Russia a… pic.twitter.com/ZaAQgE4opI
— Sławomir Dębski (@SlawomirDebski) May 27, 2023
For those wondering why Lindsey Graham is so invested in Ukraine winning and Russians dying:@LindseyGrahamSC was with Deep State McCain in Ukraine in 2016, telling the Ukrainians how they are going to get support from Washington so they can go on the “offensive” against Russia… pic.twitter.com/kqEXp8Fdik
— Clandestine (@WarClandestine) May 29, 2023
Going on the offensive against Russia? Indeed. if we had done more then, helping Ukraine push Russia out of Donbas and Crimea, we might have avoided the war we have now.Redbrickbear said:For those wondering why Lindsey Graham is so invested in Ukraine winning and Russians dying:@LindseyGrahamSC was with Deep State McCain in Ukraine in 2016, telling the Ukrainians how they are going to get support from Washington so they can go on the “offensive” against Russia… pic.twitter.com/kqEXp8Fdik
— Clandestine (@WarClandestine) May 29, 2023
"Nations do not wage war for war's sake, but in pursuance of policy. The military objective is only the means to a political end. Hence the military objective should be governed by the political objective … The objective in war is a better state of peace even if only from your own point of view. Hence it is essential to conduct war with constant regard to the peace you desire."
--Captain Sir Basil Liddell-Hart
Russia must end this war in substantially worse position than it began, or it will simply keep coming back for another bite. ALL of the gains from the 2022 invasion must be reversed and, ideally, one or both of Donbas and Crimea must be returned to Ukrainian control. If you don't punish the small infractions, bigger ones will happen.
This war is about political order, a defense of modernity itself. Do larger nations get to nibble off pieces of what they want in the shatter zone? They did pre-WWI. And it led directly to TWO world wars. The post WWII international order holds that the borders are the borders. If you don't maintain that principle, then it's back to pre-colonial scrambles for geography.
America has already rejected the international order. The only way to restore balance is to accept Russian control of Crimea and the Donbas. Otherwise the Lindsey Grahams and Hillary Clintons of the world will keep pushing Russia until we find ourselves in direct conflict.whiterock said:Going on the offensive against Russia? Indeed. if we had done more then, helping Ukraine push Russia out of Donbas and Crimea, we might have avoided the war we have now.Redbrickbear said:For those wondering why Lindsey Graham is so invested in Ukraine winning and Russians dying:@LindseyGrahamSC was with Deep State McCain in Ukraine in 2016, telling the Ukrainians how they are going to get support from Washington so they can go on the “offensive” against Russia… pic.twitter.com/kqEXp8Fdik
— Clandestine (@WarClandestine) May 29, 2023
"Nations do not wage war for war's sake, but in pursuance of policy. The military objective is only the means to a political end. Hence the military objective should be governed by the political objective … The objective in war is a better state of peace even if only from your own point of view. Hence it is essential to conduct war with constant regard to the peace you desire."
--Captain Sir Basil Liddell-Hart
Russia must end this war in substantially worse position than it began, or it will simply keep coming back for another bite. ALL of the gains from the 2022 invasion must be reversed and, ideally, one or both of Donbas and Crimea must be returned to Ukrainian control. If you don't punish the small infractions, bigger ones will happen.
This war is about political order, a defense of modernity itself. Do larger nations get to nibble off pieces of what they want in the shatter zone? They did pre-WWI. And it led directly to TWO world wars. The post WWII international order holds that the borders are the borders. If you don't maintain that principle, then it's back to pre-colonial scrambles for geography.
whiterock said:Going on the offensive against Russia? Indeed. if we had done more then, helping Ukraine push Russia out of Donbas and Crimea, we might have avoided the war we have now.Redbrickbear said:For those wondering why Lindsey Graham is so invested in Ukraine winning and Russians dying:@LindseyGrahamSC was with Deep State McCain in Ukraine in 2016, telling the Ukrainians how they are going to get support from Washington so they can go on the “offensive” against Russia… pic.twitter.com/kqEXp8Fdik
— Clandestine (@WarClandestine) May 29, 2023
"Nations do not wage war for war's sake, but in pursuance of policy. The military objective is only the means to a political end. Hence the military objective should be governed by the political objective … The objective in war is a better state of peace even if only from your own point of view. Hence it is essential to conduct war with constant regard to the peace you desire."
--Captain Sir Basil Liddell-Hart
Russia must end this war in substantially worse position than it began, or it will simply keep coming back for another bite. ALL of the gains from the 2022 invasion must be reversed and, ideally, one or both of Donbas and Crimea must be returned to Ukrainian control. If you don't punish the small infractions, bigger ones will happen.
This war is about political order, a defense of modernity itself. Do larger nations get to nibble off pieces of what they want in the shatter zone? They did pre-WWI. And it led directly to TWO world wars. The post WWII international order holds that the borders are the borders. If you don't maintain that principle, then it's back to pre-colonial scrambles for geography.
Absolutely correct.
Reagan would never have put us in this situation. Our foreign policy today lacks any vestige of his realism or strategic empathy. It's what Boomer narcissism looks like with a trillion dollar budget and all restraint cast aside.whiterock said:Now you're projecting onto others the positions you need them to have rather the ones they've stated. Saying you'd end the war in 30 days doesn't say HOW you would do that.HuMcK said:whiterock said:we could speed up the aid and finish it in a lot less time than that for a lot less money than that, and I suspect that's what will happen if we get a Republican president.Doc Holliday said:
How y'all gonna feel in 4 years when this is still ongoing because Joe Biden can get 80+ million votes for term 2 and the tab is a couple trillion dollars?
Lol, you're lying to yourself. A President Trump or DeSantis have made it pretty clear what their position is, and it doesn't favor Ukraine.
I'd do it the same way Reagan ended the Cold War - making it clear to Russia that we were prepared to engage in a mobilization which Russia had no hope of countering - opening up the floodgates of arms and money to Ukraine.....unless Vlad made an immediate and unconditional commitment to withdraw to 2014 boundaries.
They'll cave.
They can't win.
And they know it.
Sam, Reagan took on the Soviets in West Germany, "Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall"? Supplying the Afghans with weapons to take on the Soviets for an invasion. Maybe this will remind you "Operation Cyclone"...Sam Lowry said:Reagan would never have put us in this situation. Our foreign policy today lacks any vestige of his realism or strategic empathy. It's what Boomer narcissism looks like with a trillion dollar budget and all restraints cast aside.whiterock said:Now you're projecting onto others the positions you need them to have rather the ones they've stated. Saying you'd end the war in 30 days doesn't say HOW you would do that.HuMcK said:whiterock said:we could speed up the aid and finish it in a lot less time than that for a lot less money than that, and I suspect that's what will happen if we get a Republican president.Doc Holliday said:
How y'all gonna feel in 4 years when this is still ongoing because Joe Biden can get 80+ million votes for term 2 and the tab is a couple trillion dollars?
Lol, you're lying to yourself. A President Trump or DeSantis have made it pretty clear what their position is, and it doesn't favor Ukraine.
I'd do it the same way Reagan ended the Cold War - making it clear to Russia that we were prepared to engage in a mobilization which Russia had no hope of countering - opening up the floodgates of arms and money to Ukraine.....unless Vlad made an immediate and unconditional commitment to withdraw to 2014 boundaries.
They'll cave.
They can't win.
And they know it.
Taking on the Soviets when they invade Nations is a National Past time. The reason it has such a long history is the Soviets keep invading neighbors. The boundaries of Ukraine were set by the Soviets and Internationally accepted. Russia is wrong here and the US being in direct conflict is nothing new. Russia's history of invasion going back until 1900 (I will start there...)
Manchuria
Estonia, twice
Latvia
Armenia
Georgia, twice
Finland, twice
Iran
Afghanistan
Chechnya, twice
Ukraine
Strategic empathy?Sam Lowry said:Reagan would never have put us in this situation. Our foreign policy today lacks any vestige of his realism or strategic empathy. It's what Boomer narcissism looks like with a trillion dollar budget and all restraint cast aside.whiterock said:Now you're projecting onto others the positions you need them to have rather the ones they've stated. Saying you'd end the war in 30 days doesn't say HOW you would do that.HuMcK said:whiterock said:we could speed up the aid and finish it in a lot less time than that for a lot less money than that, and I suspect that's what will happen if we get a Republican president.Doc Holliday said:
How y'all gonna feel in 4 years when this is still ongoing because Joe Biden can get 80+ million votes for term 2 and the tab is a couple trillion dollars?
Lol, you're lying to yourself. A President Trump or DeSantis have made it pretty clear what their position is, and it doesn't favor Ukraine.
I'd do it the same way Reagan ended the Cold War - making it clear to Russia that we were prepared to engage in a mobilization which Russia had no hope of countering - opening up the floodgates of arms and money to Ukraine.....unless Vlad made an immediate and unconditional commitment to withdraw to 2014 boundaries.
They'll cave.
They can't win.
And they know it.
RMF5630 said:Sam, Reagan took on the Soviets in West Germany, "Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall"? Supplying the Afghans with weapons to take on the Soviets for an invasion. Maybe this will remind you "Operation Cyclone"...Sam Lowry said:Reagan would never have put us in this situation. Our foreign policy today lacks any vestige of his realism or strategic empathy. It's what Boomer narcissism looks like with a trillion dollar budget and all restraints cast aside.whiterock said:Now you're projecting onto others the positions you need them to have rather the ones they've stated. Saying you'd end the war in 30 days doesn't say HOW you would do that.HuMcK said:whiterock said:we could speed up the aid and finish it in a lot less time than that for a lot less money than that, and I suspect that's what will happen if we get a Republican president.Doc Holliday said:
How y'all gonna feel in 4 years when this is still ongoing because Joe Biden can get 80+ million votes for term 2 and the tab is a couple trillion dollars?
Lol, you're lying to yourself. A President Trump or DeSantis have made it pretty clear what their position is, and it doesn't favor Ukraine.
I'd do it the same way Reagan ended the Cold War - making it clear to Russia that we were prepared to engage in a mobilization which Russia had no hope of countering - opening up the floodgates of arms and money to Ukraine.....unless Vlad made an immediate and unconditional commitment to withdraw to 2014 boundaries.
They'll cave.
They can't win.
And they know it.
Taking on the Soviets when they invade Nations is a National Past time. The reason it has such a long history is the Soviets keep invading neighbors. The boundaries of Ukraine were set by the Soviets and Internationally accepted. Russia is wrong here and the US being in direct conflict is nothing new. Russia's history of invasion going back until 1900 (I will start there...)
Manchuria
Estonia, twice
Latvia
Armenia
Georgia, twice
Finland, twice
Iran
Afghanistan
Chechnya, twice
Ukraine
You can say Ukraine "twice" 2014 and 2022, and the entire "Donbas breakaway region" is and has been fully armed and funded by Russia
Mr. Treehorn treats objects like women, man.
Every word is true. Honor our dead by stopping endless & pointless wars.
— Joe Kent for WA-3 (@joekent16jan19) May 29, 2023
Only deploy American troops into harms way as a last resort & for our vital national security interests. https://t.co/0fBeB2XaZ2
agree.Redbrickbear said:Every word is true. Honor our dead by stopping endless & pointless wars.
— Joe Kent for WA-3 (@joekent16jan19) May 29, 2023
Only deploy American troops into harms way as a last resort & for our vital national security interests. https://t.co/0fBeB2XaZ2
fortunately, we are not deploying armed forces to participate in the Ukraine War.
You know, you really should think thru your posts before hitting enter. The international order recognizes Donbas and Crimea as sovereign Ukrainian territory.Sam Lowry said:America has already rejected the international order. The only way to restore balance is to accept Russian control of Crimea and the Donbas. Otherwise the Lindsey Grahams and Hillary Clintons of the world will keep pushing Russia until we find ourselves in direct conflict.whiterock said:Going on the offensive against Russia? Indeed. if we had done more then, helping Ukraine push Russia out of Donbas and Crimea, we might have avoided the war we have now.Redbrickbear said:For those wondering why Lindsey Graham is so invested in Ukraine winning and Russians dying:@LindseyGrahamSC was with Deep State McCain in Ukraine in 2016, telling the Ukrainians how they are going to get support from Washington so they can go on the “offensive” against Russia… pic.twitter.com/kqEXp8Fdik
— Clandestine (@WarClandestine) May 29, 2023
"Nations do not wage war for war's sake, but in pursuance of policy. The military objective is only the means to a political end. Hence the military objective should be governed by the political objective … The objective in war is a better state of peace even if only from your own point of view. Hence it is essential to conduct war with constant regard to the peace you desire."
--Captain Sir Basil Liddell-Hart
Russia must end this war in substantially worse position than it began, or it will simply keep coming back for another bite. ALL of the gains from the 2022 invasion must be reversed and, ideally, one or both of Donbas and Crimea must be returned to Ukrainian control. If you don't punish the small infractions, bigger ones will happen.
This war is about political order, a defense of modernity itself. Do larger nations get to nibble off pieces of what they want in the shatter zone? They did pre-WWI. And it led directly to TWO world wars. The post WWII international order holds that the borders are the borders. If you don't maintain that principle, then it's back to pre-colonial scrambles for geography.
The international order recognized Iraq as sovereign territory too. You really should think through your hypocrisy before lecturing Russia.whiterock said:You know, you really should think thru your posts before hitting enter. The international order recognizes Donbas and Crimea as sovereign Ukrainian territory.Sam Lowry said:America has already rejected the international order. The only way to restore balance is to accept Russian control of Crimea and the Donbas. Otherwise the Lindsey Grahams and Hillary Clintons of the world will keep pushing Russia until we find ourselves in direct conflict.whiterock said:Going on the offensive against Russia? Indeed. if we had done more then, helping Ukraine push Russia out of Donbas and Crimea, we might have avoided the war we have now.Redbrickbear said:For those wondering why Lindsey Graham is so invested in Ukraine winning and Russians dying:@LindseyGrahamSC was with Deep State McCain in Ukraine in 2016, telling the Ukrainians how they are going to get support from Washington so they can go on the “offensive” against Russia… pic.twitter.com/kqEXp8Fdik
— Clandestine (@WarClandestine) May 29, 2023
"Nations do not wage war for war's sake, but in pursuance of policy. The military objective is only the means to a political end. Hence the military objective should be governed by the political objective … The objective in war is a better state of peace even if only from your own point of view. Hence it is essential to conduct war with constant regard to the peace you desire."
--Captain Sir Basil Liddell-Hart
Russia must end this war in substantially worse position than it began, or it will simply keep coming back for another bite. ALL of the gains from the 2022 invasion must be reversed and, ideally, one or both of Donbas and Crimea must be returned to Ukrainian control. If you don't punish the small infractions, bigger ones will happen.
This war is about political order, a defense of modernity itself. Do larger nations get to nibble off pieces of what they want in the shatter zone? They did pre-WWI. And it led directly to TWO world wars. The post WWII international order holds that the borders are the borders. If you don't maintain that principle, then it's back to pre-colonial scrambles for geography.
Seems like the UN at least went through the motions on Desert Storm II.Sam Lowry said:The international order recognized Iraq as sovereign territory too. You really should think through your hypocrisy before lecturing Russia.whiterock said:You know, you really should think thru your posts before hitting enter. The international order recognizes Donbas and Crimea as sovereign Ukrainian territory.Sam Lowry said:America has already rejected the international order. The only way to restore balance is to accept Russian control of Crimea and the Donbas. Otherwise the Lindsey Grahams and Hillary Clintons of the world will keep pushing Russia until we find ourselves in direct conflict.whiterock said:Going on the offensive against Russia? Indeed. if we had done more then, helping Ukraine push Russia out of Donbas and Crimea, we might have avoided the war we have now.Redbrickbear said:For those wondering why Lindsey Graham is so invested in Ukraine winning and Russians dying:@LindseyGrahamSC was with Deep State McCain in Ukraine in 2016, telling the Ukrainians how they are going to get support from Washington so they can go on the “offensive” against Russia… pic.twitter.com/kqEXp8Fdik
— Clandestine (@WarClandestine) May 29, 2023
"Nations do not wage war for war's sake, but in pursuance of policy. The military objective is only the means to a political end. Hence the military objective should be governed by the political objective … The objective in war is a better state of peace even if only from your own point of view. Hence it is essential to conduct war with constant regard to the peace you desire."
--Captain Sir Basil Liddell-Hart
Russia must end this war in substantially worse position than it began, or it will simply keep coming back for another bite. ALL of the gains from the 2022 invasion must be reversed and, ideally, one or both of Donbas and Crimea must be returned to Ukrainian control. If you don't punish the small infractions, bigger ones will happen.
This war is about political order, a defense of modernity itself. Do larger nations get to nibble off pieces of what they want in the shatter zone? They did pre-WWI. And it led directly to TWO world wars. The post WWII international order holds that the borders are the borders. If you don't maintain that principle, then it's back to pre-colonial scrambles for geography.
The ability to see from your opponent's point of view. Very important.He Hate Me said:Strategic empathy?Sam Lowry said:Reagan would never have put us in this situation. Our foreign policy today lacks any vestige of his realism or strategic empathy. It's what Boomer narcissism looks like with a trillion dollar budget and all restraint cast aside.whiterock said:Now you're projecting onto others the positions you need them to have rather the ones they've stated. Saying you'd end the war in 30 days doesn't say HOW you would do that.HuMcK said:whiterock said:we could speed up the aid and finish it in a lot less time than that for a lot less money than that, and I suspect that's what will happen if we get a Republican president.Doc Holliday said:
How y'all gonna feel in 4 years when this is still ongoing because Joe Biden can get 80+ million votes for term 2 and the tab is a couple trillion dollars?
Lol, you're lying to yourself. A President Trump or DeSantis have made it pretty clear what their position is, and it doesn't favor Ukraine.
I'd do it the same way Reagan ended the Cold War - making it clear to Russia that we were prepared to engage in a mobilization which Russia had no hope of countering - opening up the floodgates of arms and money to Ukraine.....unless Vlad made an immediate and unconditional commitment to withdraw to 2014 boundaries.
They'll cave.
They can't win.
And they know it.
It could seem that way, listening to Dubya talk. Looking at the resolutions, not so much.He Hate Me said:Seems like the UN at least went through the motions on Desert Storm II.Sam Lowry said:The international order recognized Iraq as sovereign territory too. You really should think through your hypocrisy before lecturing Russia.whiterock said:You know, you really should think thru your posts before hitting enter. The international order recognizes Donbas and Crimea as sovereign Ukrainian territory.Sam Lowry said:America has already rejected the international order. The only way to restore balance is to accept Russian control of Crimea and the Donbas. Otherwise the Lindsey Grahams and Hillary Clintons of the world will keep pushing Russia until we find ourselves in direct conflict.whiterock said:Going on the offensive against Russia? Indeed. if we had done more then, helping Ukraine push Russia out of Donbas and Crimea, we might have avoided the war we have now.Redbrickbear said:For those wondering why Lindsey Graham is so invested in Ukraine winning and Russians dying:@LindseyGrahamSC was with Deep State McCain in Ukraine in 2016, telling the Ukrainians how they are going to get support from Washington so they can go on the “offensive” against Russia… pic.twitter.com/kqEXp8Fdik
— Clandestine (@WarClandestine) May 29, 2023
"Nations do not wage war for war's sake, but in pursuance of policy. The military objective is only the means to a political end. Hence the military objective should be governed by the political objective … The objective in war is a better state of peace even if only from your own point of view. Hence it is essential to conduct war with constant regard to the peace you desire."
--Captain Sir Basil Liddell-Hart
Russia must end this war in substantially worse position than it began, or it will simply keep coming back for another bite. ALL of the gains from the 2022 invasion must be reversed and, ideally, one or both of Donbas and Crimea must be returned to Ukrainian control. If you don't punish the small infractions, bigger ones will happen.
This war is about political order, a defense of modernity itself. Do larger nations get to nibble off pieces of what they want in the shatter zone? They did pre-WWI. And it led directly to TWO world wars. The post WWII international order holds that the borders are the borders. If you don't maintain that principle, then it's back to pre-colonial scrambles for geography.
I don't know that I would call that empathy. Empathy has to do with understanding another's feelings/emotions. Gaming out situations and understanding another's motivations may be good diplomacy, but there is a better word than empathy.Sam Lowry said:The ability to see from your opponent's point of view. Very important.He Hate Me said:Strategic empathy?Sam Lowry said:Reagan would never have put us in this situation. Our foreign policy today lacks any vestige of his realism or strategic empathy. It's what Boomer narcissism looks like with a trillion dollar budget and all restraint cast aside.whiterock said:Now you're projecting onto others the positions you need them to have rather the ones they've stated. Saying you'd end the war in 30 days doesn't say HOW you would do that.HuMcK said:whiterock said:we could speed up the aid and finish it in a lot less time than that for a lot less money than that, and I suspect that's what will happen if we get a Republican president.Doc Holliday said:
How y'all gonna feel in 4 years when this is still ongoing because Joe Biden can get 80+ million votes for term 2 and the tab is a couple trillion dollars?
Lol, you're lying to yourself. A President Trump or DeSantis have made it pretty clear what their position is, and it doesn't favor Ukraine.
I'd do it the same way Reagan ended the Cold War - making it clear to Russia that we were prepared to engage in a mobilization which Russia had no hope of countering - opening up the floodgates of arms and money to Ukraine.....unless Vlad made an immediate and unconditional commitment to withdraw to 2014 boundaries.
They'll cave.
They can't win.
And they know it.
We can't avoid attributing emotions to the other (e.g. "don't shop at Target, they hate you" or "Putin is crazed with hostility to the West"). Often it's little more than projection. The value of empathizing is that there's a chance you'll get it right.He Hate Me said:I don't know that I would call that empathy. Empathy has to do with understanding another's feelings/emotions. Gaming out situations and understanding another's motivations may be good diplomacy, but there is a better word than empathy.Sam Lowry said:The ability to see from your opponent's point of view. Very important.He Hate Me said:Strategic empathy?Sam Lowry said:Reagan would never have put us in this situation. Our foreign policy today lacks any vestige of his realism or strategic empathy. It's what Boomer narcissism looks like with a trillion dollar budget and all restraint cast aside.whiterock said:Now you're projecting onto others the positions you need them to have rather the ones they've stated. Saying you'd end the war in 30 days doesn't say HOW you would do that.HuMcK said:whiterock said:we could speed up the aid and finish it in a lot less time than that for a lot less money than that, and I suspect that's what will happen if we get a Republican president.Doc Holliday said:
How y'all gonna feel in 4 years when this is still ongoing because Joe Biden can get 80+ million votes for term 2 and the tab is a couple trillion dollars?
Lol, you're lying to yourself. A President Trump or DeSantis have made it pretty clear what their position is, and it doesn't favor Ukraine.
I'd do it the same way Reagan ended the Cold War - making it clear to Russia that we were prepared to engage in a mobilization which Russia had no hope of countering - opening up the floodgates of arms and money to Ukraine.....unless Vlad made an immediate and unconditional commitment to withdraw to 2014 boundaries.
They'll cave.
They can't win.
And they know it.
Empathy is still not the right word.Sam Lowry said:We can't avoid attributing emotions to the other (e.g. "don't shop at Target, they hate you" or "Putin is crazed with hostility to the West"). Often it's little more than projection. The value of empathizing is that there's a chance you'll get it right.He Hate Me said:I don't know that I would call that empathy. Empathy has to do with understanding another's feelings/emotions. Gaming out situations and understanding another's motivations may be good diplomacy, but there is a better word than empathy.Sam Lowry said:The ability to see from your opponent's point of view. Very important.He Hate Me said:Strategic empathy?Sam Lowry said:Reagan would never have put us in this situation. Our foreign policy today lacks any vestige of his realism or strategic empathy. It's what Boomer narcissism looks like with a trillion dollar budget and all restraint cast aside.whiterock said:Now you're projecting onto others the positions you need them to have rather the ones they've stated. Saying you'd end the war in 30 days doesn't say HOW you would do that.HuMcK said:whiterock said:we could speed up the aid and finish it in a lot less time than that for a lot less money than that, and I suspect that's what will happen if we get a Republican president.Doc Holliday said:
How y'all gonna feel in 4 years when this is still ongoing because Joe Biden can get 80+ million votes for term 2 and the tab is a couple trillion dollars?
Lol, you're lying to yourself. A President Trump or DeSantis have made it pretty clear what their position is, and it doesn't favor Ukraine.
I'd do it the same way Reagan ended the Cold War - making it clear to Russia that we were prepared to engage in a mobilization which Russia had no hope of countering - opening up the floodgates of arms and money to Ukraine.....unless Vlad made an immediate and unconditional commitment to withdraw to 2014 boundaries.
They'll cave.
They can't win.
And they know it.
Good grief, counselor. A jr hi debate squad wouldn't make that kind of error. We entered Iraq to enforce UN sanctions against a rogue regime designated as a state sponsor on terror,* with an international coalition behind us. We did not annex a square inch. We de-Bathified the military, reorganized structures, and promptly facilitated a widely lauded free & fair election. We supported the newly elected government with substantial aid, and when that government asked us to go, we left. promptly.Sam Lowry said:The international order recognized Iraq as sovereign territory too. You really should think through your hypocrisy before lecturing Russia.whiterock said:You know, you really should think thru your posts before hitting enter. The international order recognizes Donbas and Crimea as sovereign Ukrainian territory.Sam Lowry said:America has already rejected the international order. The only way to restore balance is to accept Russian control of Crimea and the Donbas. Otherwise the Lindsey Grahams and Hillary Clintons of the world will keep pushing Russia until we find ourselves in direct conflict.whiterock said:Going on the offensive against Russia? Indeed. if we had done more then, helping Ukraine push Russia out of Donbas and Crimea, we might have avoided the war we have now.Redbrickbear said:For those wondering why Lindsey Graham is so invested in Ukraine winning and Russians dying:@LindseyGrahamSC was with Deep State McCain in Ukraine in 2016, telling the Ukrainians how they are going to get support from Washington so they can go on the “offensive” against Russia… pic.twitter.com/kqEXp8Fdik
— Clandestine (@WarClandestine) May 29, 2023
"Nations do not wage war for war's sake, but in pursuance of policy. The military objective is only the means to a political end. Hence the military objective should be governed by the political objective … The objective in war is a better state of peace even if only from your own point of view. Hence it is essential to conduct war with constant regard to the peace you desire."
--Captain Sir Basil Liddell-Hart
Russia must end this war in substantially worse position than it began, or it will simply keep coming back for another bite. ALL of the gains from the 2022 invasion must be reversed and, ideally, one or both of Donbas and Crimea must be returned to Ukrainian control. If you don't punish the small infractions, bigger ones will happen.
This war is about political order, a defense of modernity itself. Do larger nations get to nibble off pieces of what they want in the shatter zone? They did pre-WWI. And it led directly to TWO world wars. The post WWII international order holds that the borders are the borders. If you don't maintain that principle, then it's back to pre-colonial scrambles for geography.
*I was part of a Presidential Unit Citation for interdicting an Iraqi terrorist operation against the USG. Not Iraqi sponsored. IRAQI MILITARY OFFICERS engaged in a terrorist plot against multiple official American facilities, BEFORE the First Gulf War. It was a blatant act of war. SOME of the arrests made the newspapers, but all of those arrests were based off of tips from my unit. Not sure how much details have been published but so can't go further.
https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/iraq-iraqi-ties-terrorism
(see "Has Iraq used terrorism against the United States in the past?" section well down the page)
Repeat after me:
Ukraine is NOT Iraq.
USA is NOT Russia.
I mean, you could hardly have served up a better example of how a responsible power (USA) acts versus how an irresponsible power (Russia) acts.