Doc Holliday said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

trey3216 said:

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Doc Holliday said:

---

There's been drone strikes in Moscow, the capitol of Russia has been hit by Ukraine,

I expect a response from Russia within the next 72 hours. I suspect it has something to do with the movement of nuclear platforms (mobile nuclear missiles into Belarus).

So the brinksmanship continues because the western world is incapable of conducting diplomacy. Ukrainian leadership is not taking this seriously at this point by commanding drone strikes or potentially through dissident forces in Russia within the capitol itself.

Its a dangerous game opening yourself up to Russia responding with nukes. I don't think that happens, but what if Russia comes out tomorrow stating "Dear Russian people, we've been attacked on our domestic soil by Ukrainian terrorists...we'll we're going to take care of that" and then they fire a nuke at Kiev? How does the west respond? Russia is already under sanctions, China won't abandon them, there's no military response we can launch because the west isn't going to drop nukes on Russia.

A nuclear threat realizes with impunity its capable of targeting third party nations without any meaningful retaliation because it's already been pariahed to the point where there's nothing further any nation can do. Are we gonna stop Russian planes from flying out of Russian territory by firing sorties? If you fire on them and they fire back, that's direct war. Are you gonna stop their ships? Well that's great for the black sea because the Bosphorus is controlled by Turkey which is under the leadership of someone who talks well of both Putin and the western world.

We've gotten rid of mutually assured destruction. Either a war breaks out directly, or one side feels it can act with impunity with nuclear weapons and war doesn't immediately break out so they use them MORE.

I don't like the fact that Ukraine has been invaded and I feel sorry for them, but we as non Ukrainians need to approach this from a measured manner and conduct diplomacy.

This situation is what happens when the entire globe is run by failed leaders across the board.

---

So allowing Russia the ability to act with impunity because they have nukes is the answer? It's a dangerous game when you invade another nation. Perhaps they should take their ball and go home

---

Without diplomacy we run the risk of them behaving without impunity. If they use nukes and we counter attack in response, it's WW3.

Are you in favor of direct war against Russia instead of a proxy war?

---

We are engaging in diplomacy. And also diplomacy by other means.

Russia is not going to nuke Ukraine for bombing Moscow, precisely because they know we will counter.

The hysteria over nuclear war here is quite a bit overblown.

---

Why is Russia moving nuclear weapons into Belarus?

---

So they can absorb Belarus officially as part of the Russian state rather than just being a vassal.

trey3216 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

There's been drone strikes in Moscow, the capitol of Russia has been hit by Ukraine,

I expect a response from Russia within the next 72 hours. I suspect it has something to do with the movement of nuclear platforms (mobile nuclear missiles into Belarus).

So the brinksmanship continues because the western world is incapable of conducting diplomacy. Ukrainian leadership is not taking this seriously at this point by commanding drone strikes or potentially through dissident forces in Russia within the capitol itself.

Its a dangerous game opening yourself up to Russia responding with nukes. I don't think that happens, but what if Russia comes out tomorrow stating "Dear Russian people, we've been attacked on our domestic soil by Ukrainian terrorists...we'll we're going to take care of that" and then they fire a nuke at Kiev? How does the west respond? Russia is already under sanctions, China won't abandon them, there's no military response we can launch because the west isn't going to drop nukes on Russia.

A nuclear threat realizes with impunity its capable of targeting third party nations without any meaningful retaliation because it's already been pariahed to the point where there's nothing further any nation can do. Are we gonna stop Russian planes from flying out of Russian territory by firing sorties? If you fire on them and they fire back, that's direct war. Are you gonna stop their ships? Well that's great for the black sea because the Bosphorus is controlled by Turkey which is under the leadership of someone who talks well of both Putin and the western world.

We've gotten rid of mutually assured destruction. Either a war breaks out directly, or one side feels it can act with impunity with nuclear weapons and war doesn't immediately break out so they use them MORE.

I don't like the fact that Ukraine has been invaded and I feel sorry for them, but we as non Ukrainians need to approach this from a measured manner and conduct diplomacy.

This situation is what happens when the entire globe is run by failed leaders across the board.

---

So allowing Russia the ability to act with impunity because they have nukes is the answer? It's a dangerous game when you invade another nation. Perhaps they should take their ball and go home

---

Without diplomacy we run the risk of them behaving without impunity. If they use nukes and we counter attack in response, it's WW3.

Are you in favor of direct war against Russia instead of a proxy war?

---

We are engaging in diplomacy. And also diplomacy by other means.

Russia is not going to nuke Ukraine for bombing Moscow, precisely because they know we will counter.

The hysteria over nuclear war here is quite a bit overblown.

---

Why is Russia moving nuclear weapons into Belarus?

---

So they can absorb Belarus officially as part of the Russian state rather than just being a vassal.

---

Essentially they already have

[The Union State is based on a previous international treaty between Russia and Belarus[9] made on 2 April 1997.[10] Although it consists of only Russia and Belarus, other countries are allowed to join.[7] The supranational union is ruled through the Supreme State Council[11] and other governing bodies.[12] As of 2023, the current president of the Supreme State Council of the Union is Alexander Lukashenko, who has held the position since 2000.[13] The present goal of the Union State mainly focuses on economic integration,[14] taxation,[15] and integration of defense and intelligence apparatus.]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_State

Redbrickbear said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

There's been drone strikes in Moscow, the capitol of Russia has been hit by Ukraine,

I expect a response from Russia within the next 72 hours. I suspect it has something to do with the movement of nuclear platforms (mobile nuclear missiles into Belarus).

So the brinksmanship continues because the western world is incapable of conducting diplomacy. Ukrainian leadership is not taking this seriously at this point by commanding drone strikes or potentially through dissident forces in Russia within the capitol itself.

Its a dangerous game opening yourself up to Russia responding with nukes. I don't think that happens, but what if Russia comes out tomorrow stating "Dear Russian people, we've been attacked on our domestic soil by Ukrainian terrorists...we'll we're going to take care of that" and then they fire a nuke at Kiev? How does the west respond? Russia is already under sanctions, China won't abandon them, there's no military response we can launch because the west isn't going to drop nukes on Russia.

A nuclear threat realizes with impunity its capable of targeting third party nations without any meaningful retaliation because it's already been pariahed to the point where there's nothing further any nation can do. Are we gonna stop Russian planes from flying out of Russian territory by firing sorties? If you fire on them and they fire back, that's direct war. Are you gonna stop their ships? Well that's great for the black sea because the Bosphorus is controlled by Turkey which is under the leadership of someone who talks well of both Putin and the western world.

We've gotten rid of mutually assured destruction. Either a war breaks out directly, or one side feels it can act with impunity with nuclear weapons and war doesn't immediately break out so they use them MORE.

I don't like the fact that Ukraine has been invaded and I feel sorry for them, but we as non Ukrainians need to approach this from a measured manner and conduct diplomacy.

This situation is what happens when the entire globe is run by failed leaders across the board.

---

So allowing Russia the ability to act with impunity because they have nukes is the answer? It's a dangerous game when you invade another nation. Perhaps they should take their ball and go home

---

Without diplomacy we run the risk of them behaving without impunity. If they use nukes and we counter attack in response, it's WW3.

Are you in favor of direct war against Russia instead of a proxy war?

---

We are engaging in diplomacy. And also diplomacy by other means.

Russia is not going to nuke Ukraine for bombing Moscow, precisely because they know we will counter.

The hysteria over nuclear war here is quite a bit overblown.

---

Why is Russia moving nuclear weapons into Belarus?

---

So they can absorb Belarus officially as part of the Russian state rather than just being a vassal.

---

Essentially they already have

[The Union State is based on a previous international treaty between Russia and Belarus[9] made on 2 April 1997.[10] Although it consists of only Russia and Belarus, other countries are allowed to join.[7] The supranational union is ruled through the Supreme State Council[11] and other governing bodies.[12] As of 2023, the current president of the Supreme State Council of the Union is Alexander Lukashenko, who has held the position since 2000.[13] The present goal of the Union State mainly focuses on economic integration,[14] taxation,[15] and integration of defense and intelligence apparatus.]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_State

---

no doubt. I'm just talking about officially rather than in presentation only. Same goal for Ukraine.

[The United States has committed itself to expanding NATO to Russia's borders. NATO, of course, stands for "North Atlantic Treaty Organization." A nave onlooker might ask why countries like Bulgaria, Finland, and Poland would be included in such a treaty. The answer is pretty simple: NATO has nothing to do with the North Atlantic. It is an anti-Russian military alliance.

Russia knew (or, rather, knows) that Ukraine has been courting both the European Union and NATO. Kiev wants to unite itself politically, economically, and militarily to the West. That would mean the United States has a right to place more troops and artillery on Russia's border. Russia didn't like that, and so it lashed out.
But the question is why does the United States want to put troops and artillery on Russia's border? Why has it maintained and, indeed, expanded this anti-Russian alliance, even though its original objective (i.e., the destruction of the Soviet Union) has been accomplished?

Our leaders have been clear on that point. To quote Richard Moore, the current chief of MI6: "With the tragedy and destruction unfolding so distressingly in Ukraine, we should remember the values and hard-won freedoms that distinguish us from Putin, none more than LGBT+ rights."
This isn't Kremlin disinformation. These are the words coming from the horse's mouth. We hate Russia because they are mean to the gays.
Deacon Nicholas Kotar, the great novelist and translator, gave a wider view:

Quote:

---

What the Russian government is doing is setting a red line to the spread of NGO-style liberal democracy. And Ukraine, unfortunately, has been a buffer zone, and a kind of test-case, for the spread, not of a political system, but of a system of values, that is espoused by the elites only....The problem is that with all these colored revolutions, no matter how you look at it, the thing that comes in together with the money is an insistence, unfortunately, on the adoption of the Western liberal cultural milieu. It happened in Georgia, it happened in Ukraine, it happened everywhere.

---

Ultimately, this isn't about Russia. It's not even about Ukraine. It's about us. Western elites want us to believe that the triumph of "NGO-style liberal democracy" is inevitable everywhere. But it's not. Russia is living proof of that.]

Redbrickbear said:

---

[The United States has committed itself to expanding NATO to Russia's borders. NATO, of course, stands for "North Atlantic Treaty Organization." A nave onlooker might ask why countries like Bulgaria, Finland, and Poland would be included in such a treaty. The answer is pretty simple: NATO has nothing to do with the North Atlantic. It is an anti-Russian military alliance.

Russia knew (or, rather, knows) that Ukraine has been courting both the European Union and NATO. Kiev wants to unite itself politically, economically, and militarily to the West. That would mean the United States has a right to place more troops and artillery on Russia's border. Russia didn't like that, and so it lashed out.
But the question is why does the United States want to put troops and artillery on Russia's border? Why has it maintained and, indeed, expanded this anti-Russian alliance, even though its original objective (i.e., the destruction of the Soviet Union) has been accomplished?

Our leaders have been clear on that point. To quote Richard Moore, the current chief of MI6: "With the tragedy and destruction unfolding so distressingly in Ukraine, we should remember the values and hard-won freedoms that distinguish us from Putin, none more than LGBT+ rights."
This isn't Kremlin disinformation. These are the words coming from the horse's mouth. We hate Russia because they are mean to the gays.
Deacon Nicholas Kotar, the great novelist and translator, gave a wider view:

Quote:

---

What the Russian government is doing is setting a red line to the spread of NGO-style liberal democracy. And Ukraine, unfortunately, has been a buffer zone, and a kind of test-case, for the spread, not of a political system, but of a system of values, that is espoused by the elites only....The problem is that with all these colored revolutions, no matter how you look at it, the thing that comes in together with the money is an insistence, unfortunately, on the adoption of the Western liberal cultural milieu. It happened in Georgia, it happened in Ukraine, it happened everywhere.

---

Ultimately, this isn't about Russia. It's not even about Ukraine. It's about us. Western elites want us to believe that the triumph of "NGO-style liberal democracy" is inevitable everywhere. But it's not. Russia is living proof of that.]

---

It is all about Ukraine! They want to be part of the EU, NATO and the West to achieve a higher quality of life for their citizens.

The only living, and not so living, proof we have of anything is that the Russian system WILL NOT result in a higher quality of life for citizen! Nations that hitch its wagon to Russia end up with less freedom, worse economies and 2nd world level quality of lives. Why would ANY nation prefer Russia to the EU? How about this, let's look at those that do:

• Belarus
• Iran
• North Korea
• Cuba
• Syria
• Venezula
• Myanmar

You can say with a straight face that you would prefer that system and quality of life over the EU and NATO membership?

RMF5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

[The United States has committed itself to expanding NATO to Russia's borders. NATO, of course, stands for "North Atlantic Treaty Organization." A nave onlooker might ask why countries like Bulgaria, Finland, and Poland would be included in such a treaty. The answer is pretty simple: NATO has nothing to do with the North Atlantic. It is an anti-Russian military alliance.

Russia knew (or, rather, knows) that Ukraine has been courting both the European Union and NATO. Kiev wants to unite itself politically, economically, and militarily to the West. That would mean the United States has a right to place more troops and artillery on Russia's border. Russia didn't like that, and so it lashed out.
But the question is why does the United States want to put troops and artillery on Russia's border? Why has it maintained and, indeed, expanded this anti-Russian alliance, even though its original objective (i.e., the destruction of the Soviet Union) has been accomplished?

Our leaders have been clear on that point. To quote Richard Moore, the current chief of MI6: "With the tragedy and destruction unfolding so distressingly in Ukraine, we should remember the values and hard-won freedoms that distinguish us from Putin, none more than LGBT+ rights."
This isn't Kremlin disinformation. These are the words coming from the horse's mouth. We hate Russia because they are mean to the gays.
Deacon Nicholas Kotar, the great novelist and translator, gave a wider view:

Quote:

---

What the Russian government is doing is setting a red line to the spread of NGO-style liberal democracy. And Ukraine, unfortunately, has been a buffer zone, and a kind of test-case, for the spread, not of a political system, but of a system of values, that is espoused by the elites only....The problem is that with all these colored revolutions, no matter how you look at it, the thing that comes in together with the money is an insistence, unfortunately, on the adoption of the Western liberal cultural milieu. It happened in Georgia, it happened in Ukraine, it happened everywhere.

---

Ultimately, this isn't about Russia. It's not even about Ukraine. It's about us. Western elites want us to believe that the triumph of "NGO-style liberal democracy" is inevitable everywhere. But it's not. Russia is living proof of that.]

---

It is all about Ukraine! They want to be part of the EU, NATO and the West to achieve a higher quality of life for their citizens.

The only living, and not so living, proof we have of anything is that the Russian system WILL NOT result in a higher quality of life for citizen! Nations that hitch its wagon to Russia end up with less freedom, worse economies and 2nd world level quality of lives. Why would ANY nation prefer Russia to the EU? How about this, let's look at those that do:

• Belarus
• Iran
• North Korea
• Cuba
• Syria
• Venezula
• Myanmar

You can say with a straight face that you would prefer that system and quality of life over the EU and NATO membership?

---

Well after a USA backed coup in 2014 I supposed they do.

At least Western and Central Ukraine do.

Eastern Ukrainians have been fighting for a decade now against the government in Kyiv and against western integration.

Redbrickbear said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

[The United States has committed itself to expanding NATO to Russia's borders. NATO, of course, stands for "North Atlantic Treaty Organization." A nave onlooker might ask why countries like Bulgaria, Finland, and Poland would be included in such a treaty. The answer is pretty simple: NATO has nothing to do with the North Atlantic. It is an anti-Russian military alliance.

Russia knew (or, rather, knows) that Ukraine has been courting both the European Union and NATO. Kiev wants to unite itself politically, economically, and militarily to the West. That would mean the United States has a right to place more troops and artillery on Russia's border. Russia didn't like that, and so it lashed out.
But the question is why does the United States want to put troops and artillery on Russia's border? Why has it maintained and, indeed, expanded this anti-Russian alliance, even though its original objective (i.e., the destruction of the Soviet Union) has been accomplished?

Our leaders have been clear on that point. To quote Richard Moore, the current chief of MI6: "With the tragedy and destruction unfolding so distressingly in Ukraine, we should remember the values and hard-won freedoms that distinguish us from Putin, none more than LGBT+ rights."
This isn't Kremlin disinformation. These are the words coming from the horse's mouth. We hate Russia because they are mean to the gays.
Deacon Nicholas Kotar, the great novelist and translator, gave a wider view:

Quote:

---

What the Russian government is doing is setting a red line to the spread of NGO-style liberal democracy. And Ukraine, unfortunately, has been a buffer zone, and a kind of test-case, for the spread, not of a political system, but of a system of values, that is espoused by the elites only....The problem is that with all these colored revolutions, no matter how you look at it, the thing that comes in together with the money is an insistence, unfortunately, on the adoption of the Western liberal cultural milieu. It happened in Georgia, it happened in Ukraine, it happened everywhere.

---

Ultimately, this isn't about Russia. It's not even about Ukraine. It's about us. Western elites want us to believe that the triumph of "NGO-style liberal democracy" is inevitable everywhere. But it's not. Russia is living proof of that.]

---

It is all about Ukraine! They want to be part of the EU, NATO and the West to achieve a higher quality of life for their citizens.

The only living, and not so living, proof we have of anything is that the Russian system WILL NOT result in a higher quality of life for citizen! Nations that hitch its wagon to Russia end up with less freedom, worse economies and 2nd world level quality of lives. Why would ANY nation prefer Russia to the EU? How about this, let's look at those that do:

• Belarus
• Iran
• North Korea
• Cuba
• Syria
• Venezula
• Myanmar

You can say with a straight face that you would prefer that system and quality of life over the EU and NATO membership?

---

Well after a USA backed coup in 2014 I supposed they do.

At least Western and Central Ukraine do.

Eastern Ukrainians have been fighting for a decade now against the government in Kyiv and against western integration.

---

Who is the recognized President of Ukraine? I guess there are now three Ukraines? A suburb of Dallas wants to join Mexico, I guess their HOA President is who we should listen.

RMF5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

[The United States has committed itself to expanding NATO to Russia's borders. NATO, of course, stands for "North Atlantic Treaty Organization." A nave onlooker might ask why countries like Bulgaria, Finland, and Poland would be included in such a treaty. The answer is pretty simple: NATO has nothing to do with the North Atlantic. It is an anti-Russian military alliance.

Russia knew (or, rather, knows) that Ukraine has been courting both the European Union and NATO. Kiev wants to unite itself politically, economically, and militarily to the West. That would mean the United States has a right to place more troops and artillery on Russia's border. Russia didn't like that, and so it lashed out.
But the question is why does the United States want to put troops and artillery on Russia's border? Why has it maintained and, indeed, expanded this anti-Russian alliance, even though its original objective (i.e., the destruction of the Soviet Union) has been accomplished?

Our leaders have been clear on that point. To quote Richard Moore, the current chief of MI6: "With the tragedy and destruction unfolding so distressingly in Ukraine, we should remember the values and hard-won freedoms that distinguish us from Putin, none more than LGBT+ rights."
This isn't Kremlin disinformation. These are the words coming from the horse's mouth. We hate Russia because they are mean to the gays.
Deacon Nicholas Kotar, the great novelist and translator, gave a wider view:

Quote:

---

What the Russian government is doing is setting a red line to the spread of NGO-style liberal democracy. And Ukraine, unfortunately, has been a buffer zone, and a kind of test-case, for the spread, not of a political system, but of a system of values, that is espoused by the elites only....The problem is that with all these colored revolutions, no matter how you look at it, the thing that comes in together with the money is an insistence, unfortunately, on the adoption of the Western liberal cultural milieu. It happened in Georgia, it happened in Ukraine, it happened everywhere.

---

Ultimately, this isn't about Russia. It's not even about Ukraine. It's about us. Western elites want us to believe that the triumph of "NGO-style liberal democracy" is inevitable everywhere. But it's not. Russia is living proof of that.]

---

It is all about Ukraine! They want to be part of the EU, NATO and the West to achieve a higher quality of life for their citizens.

The only living, and not so living, proof we have of anything is that the Russian system WILL NOT result in a higher quality of life for citizen! Nations that hitch its wagon to Russia end up with less freedom, worse economies and 2nd world level quality of lives. Why would ANY nation prefer Russia to the EU? How about this, let's look at those that do:

• Belarus
• Iran
• North Korea
• Cuba
• Syria
• Venezula
• Myanmar

You can say with a straight face that you would prefer that system and quality of life over the EU and NATO membership?

---

Well after a USA backed coup in 2014 I supposed they do.

At least Western and Central Ukraine do.

Eastern Ukrainians have been fighting for a decade now against the government in Kyiv and against western integration.

---

Who is the recognized President of Ukraine? I guess there are now three Ukraines? A suburb of Dallas wants to join Mexico, I guess their HOA President is who we should listen.

---

The recognized President of Ukraine is a Jewish comedian from Kryvyi Rih who has been President since 2019.

After running on a peace platform he then re-committed Ukrainian forces to trying to smash the Donbas separatists and thus sparked off a larger Russian military invasion.

A war that has now killed hundreds of thousands of Ukrainian men.


p.s.

The Donbas is the size of Pennsylvania and Crimea is the size of Massachusetts. Are you under the impression these areas are the size of a US city suburb? They have millions of ethnic Russians living there.

Redbrickbear said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

[The United States has committed itself to expanding NATO to Russia's borders. NATO, of course, stands for "North Atlantic Treaty Organization." A nave onlooker might ask why countries like Bulgaria, Finland, and Poland would be included in such a treaty. The answer is pretty simple: NATO has nothing to do with the North Atlantic. It is an anti-Russian military alliance.

Russia knew (or, rather, knows) that Ukraine has been courting both the European Union and NATO. Kiev wants to unite itself politically, economically, and militarily to the West. That would mean the United States has a right to place more troops and artillery on Russia's border. Russia didn't like that, and so it lashed out.
But the question is why does the United States want to put troops and artillery on Russia's border? Why has it maintained and, indeed, expanded this anti-Russian alliance, even though its original objective (i.e., the destruction of the Soviet Union) has been accomplished?

Our leaders have been clear on that point. To quote Richard Moore, the current chief of MI6: "With the tragedy and destruction unfolding so distressingly in Ukraine, we should remember the values and hard-won freedoms that distinguish us from Putin, none more than LGBT+ rights."
This isn't Kremlin disinformation. These are the words coming from the horse's mouth. We hate Russia because they are mean to the gays.
Deacon Nicholas Kotar, the great novelist and translator, gave a wider view:

Quote:

---

What the Russian government is doing is setting a red line to the spread of NGO-style liberal democracy. And Ukraine, unfortunately, has been a buffer zone, and a kind of test-case, for the spread, not of a political system, but of a system of values, that is espoused by the elites only....The problem is that with all these colored revolutions, no matter how you look at it, the thing that comes in together with the money is an insistence, unfortunately, on the adoption of the Western liberal cultural milieu. It happened in Georgia, it happened in Ukraine, it happened everywhere.

---

Ultimately, this isn't about Russia. It's not even about Ukraine. It's about us. Western elites want us to believe that the triumph of "NGO-style liberal democracy" is inevitable everywhere. But it's not. Russia is living proof of that.]

---

It is all about Ukraine! They want to be part of the EU, NATO and the West to achieve a higher quality of life for their citizens.

The only living, and not so living, proof we have of anything is that the Russian system WILL NOT result in a higher quality of life for citizen! Nations that hitch its wagon to Russia end up with less freedom, worse economies and 2nd world level quality of lives. Why would ANY nation prefer Russia to the EU? How about this, let's look at those that do:

• Belarus
• Iran
• North Korea
• Cuba
• Syria
• Venezula
• Myanmar

You can say with a straight face that you would prefer that system and quality of life over the EU and NATO membership?

---

Well after a USA backed coup in 2014 I supposed they do.

At least Western and Central Ukraine do.

Eastern Ukrainians have been fighting for a decade now against the government in Kyiv and against western integration.

---

Eastern Ukrainians that were bought off and supplied by.....you guessed it...Russia

Redbrickbear said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

[The United States has committed itself to expanding NATO to Russia's borders. NATO, of course, stands for "North Atlantic Treaty Organization." A nave onlooker might ask why countries like Bulgaria, Finland, and Poland would be included in such a treaty. The answer is pretty simple: NATO has nothing to do with the North Atlantic. It is an anti-Russian military alliance.

Russia knew (or, rather, knows) that Ukraine has been courting both the European Union and NATO. Kiev wants to unite itself politically, economically, and militarily to the West. That would mean the United States has a right to place more troops and artillery on Russia's border. Russia didn't like that, and so it lashed out.
But the question is why does the United States want to put troops and artillery on Russia's border? Why has it maintained and, indeed, expanded this anti-Russian alliance, even though its original objective (i.e., the destruction of the Soviet Union) has been accomplished?

Our leaders have been clear on that point. To quote Richard Moore, the current chief of MI6: "With the tragedy and destruction unfolding so distressingly in Ukraine, we should remember the values and hard-won freedoms that distinguish us from Putin, none more than LGBT+ rights."
This isn't Kremlin disinformation. These are the words coming from the horse's mouth. We hate Russia because they are mean to the gays.
Deacon Nicholas Kotar, the great novelist and translator, gave a wider view:

Quote:

---

What the Russian government is doing is setting a red line to the spread of NGO-style liberal democracy. And Ukraine, unfortunately, has been a buffer zone, and a kind of test-case, for the spread, not of a political system, but of a system of values, that is espoused by the elites only....The problem is that with all these colored revolutions, no matter how you look at it, the thing that comes in together with the money is an insistence, unfortunately, on the adoption of the Western liberal cultural milieu. It happened in Georgia, it happened in Ukraine, it happened everywhere.

---

Ultimately, this isn't about Russia. It's not even about Ukraine. It's about us. Western elites want us to believe that the triumph of "NGO-style liberal democracy" is inevitable everywhere. But it's not. Russia is living proof of that.]

---

It is all about Ukraine! They want to be part of the EU, NATO and the West to achieve a higher quality of life for their citizens.

The only living, and not so living, proof we have of anything is that the Russian system WILL NOT result in a higher quality of life for citizen! Nations that hitch its wagon to Russia end up with less freedom, worse economies and 2nd world level quality of lives. Why would ANY nation prefer Russia to the EU? How about this, let's look at those that do:

• Belarus
• Iran
• North Korea
• Cuba
• Syria
• Venezula
• Myanmar

You can say with a straight face that you would prefer that system and quality of life over the EU and NATO membership?

---

Well after a USA backed coup in 2014 I supposed they do.

At least Western and Central Ukraine do.

Eastern Ukrainians have been fighting for a decade now against the government in Kyiv and against western integration.

---

Who is the recognized President of Ukraine? I guess there are now three Ukraines? A suburb of Dallas wants to join Mexico, I guess their HOA President is who we should listen.

---

The recognized President of Ukraine is a Jewish comedian from Kryvyi Rih who has been President since 2019.

After running on a peace platform he then re-committed Ukrainian forces to trying to smash the Donbas separatists and thus sparked off a larger Russian military invasion.

A war that has now killed hundreds of thousands of Ukrainian men.


p.s.

The Donbas is the size of Pennsylvania and Crimea is the size of Massachusetts. Are you under the impression these areas are the size of a US city suburb? They have millions of ethnic Russians living there.

---

Where are you seeing that hundreds of thousands of Ukrainian men have been killed? I'd surely like to see

trey3216 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

[The United States has committed itself to expanding NATO to Russia's borders. NATO, of course, stands for "North Atlantic Treaty Organization." A nave onlooker might ask why countries like Bulgaria, Finland, and Poland would be included in such a treaty. The answer is pretty simple: NATO has nothing to do with the North Atlantic. It is an anti-Russian military alliance.

Russia knew (or, rather, knows) that Ukraine has been courting both the European Union and NATO. Kiev wants to unite itself politically, economically, and militarily to the West. That would mean the United States has a right to place more troops and artillery on Russia's border. Russia didn't like that, and so it lashed out.
But the question is why does the United States want to put troops and artillery on Russia's border? Why has it maintained and, indeed, expanded this anti-Russian alliance, even though its original objective (i.e., the destruction of the Soviet Union) has been accomplished?

Our leaders have been clear on that point. To quote Richard Moore, the current chief of MI6: "With the tragedy and destruction unfolding so distressingly in Ukraine, we should remember the values and hard-won freedoms that distinguish us from Putin, none more than LGBT+ rights."
This isn't Kremlin disinformation. These are the words coming from the horse's mouth. We hate Russia because they are mean to the gays.
Deacon Nicholas Kotar, the great novelist and translator, gave a wider view:

Quote:

---

What the Russian government is doing is setting a red line to the spread of NGO-style liberal democracy. And Ukraine, unfortunately, has been a buffer zone, and a kind of test-case, for the spread, not of a political system, but of a system of values, that is espoused by the elites only....The problem is that with all these colored revolutions, no matter how you look at it, the thing that comes in together with the money is an insistence, unfortunately, on the adoption of the Western liberal cultural milieu. It happened in Georgia, it happened in Ukraine, it happened everywhere.

---

Ultimately, this isn't about Russia. It's not even about Ukraine. It's about us. Western elites want us to believe that the triumph of "NGO-style liberal democracy" is inevitable everywhere. But it's not. Russia is living proof of that.]

---

It is all about Ukraine! They want to be part of the EU, NATO and the West to achieve a higher quality of life for their citizens.

The only living, and not so living, proof we have of anything is that the Russian system WILL NOT result in a higher quality of life for citizen! Nations that hitch its wagon to Russia end up with less freedom, worse economies and 2nd world level quality of lives. Why would ANY nation prefer Russia to the EU? How about this, let's look at those that do:

• Belarus
• Iran
• North Korea
• Cuba
• Syria
• Venezula
• Myanmar

You can say with a straight face that you would prefer that system and quality of life over the EU and NATO membership?

---

Well after a USA backed coup in 2014 I supposed they do.

At least Western and Central Ukraine do.

Eastern Ukrainians have been fighting for a decade now against the government in Kyiv and against western integration.

---

Eastern Ukrainians that were bought off and supplied by.....you guessed it...Russia

---

And led by a rotating Russian officer corps.

Redbrickbear said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

[The United States has committed itself to expanding NATO to Russia's borders. NATO, of course, stands for "North Atlantic Treaty Organization." A nave onlooker might ask why countries like Bulgaria, Finland, and Poland would be included in such a treaty. The answer is pretty simple: NATO has nothing to do with the North Atlantic. It is an anti-Russian military alliance.

Russia knew (or, rather, knows) that Ukraine has been courting both the European Union and NATO. Kiev wants to unite itself politically, economically, and militarily to the West. That would mean the United States has a right to place more troops and artillery on Russia's border. Russia didn't like that, and so it lashed out.
But the question is why does the United States want to put troops and artillery on Russia's border? Why has it maintained and, indeed, expanded this anti-Russian alliance, even though its original objective (i.e., the destruction of the Soviet Union) has been accomplished?

Our leaders have been clear on that point. To quote Richard Moore, the current chief of MI6: "With the tragedy and destruction unfolding so distressingly in Ukraine, we should remember the values and hard-won freedoms that distinguish us from Putin, none more than LGBT+ rights."
This isn't Kremlin disinformation. These are the words coming from the horse's mouth. We hate Russia because they are mean to the gays.
Deacon Nicholas Kotar, the great novelist and translator, gave a wider view:

Quote:

---

What the Russian government is doing is setting a red line to the spread of NGO-style liberal democracy. And Ukraine, unfortunately, has been a buffer zone, and a kind of test-case, for the spread, not of a political system, but of a system of values, that is espoused by the elites only....The problem is that with all these colored revolutions, no matter how you look at it, the thing that comes in together with the money is an insistence, unfortunately, on the adoption of the Western liberal cultural milieu. It happened in Georgia, it happened in Ukraine, it happened everywhere.

---

Ultimately, this isn't about Russia. It's not even about Ukraine. It's about us. Western elites want us to believe that the triumph of "NGO-style liberal democracy" is inevitable everywhere. But it's not. Russia is living proof of that.]

---

It is all about Ukraine! They want to be part of the EU, NATO and the West to achieve a higher quality of life for their citizens.

The only living, and not so living, proof we have of anything is that the Russian system WILL NOT result in a higher quality of life for citizen! Nations that hitch its wagon to Russia end up with less freedom, worse economies and 2nd world level quality of lives. Why would ANY nation prefer Russia to the EU? How about this, let's look at those that do:

• Belarus
• Iran
• North Korea
• Cuba
• Syria
• Venezula
• Myanmar

You can say with a straight face that you would prefer that system and quality of life over the EU and NATO membership?

---

Well after a USA backed coup in 2014 I supposed they do.

At least Western and Central Ukraine do.

Eastern Ukrainians have been fighting for a decade now against the government in Kyiv and against western integration.

---

Who is the recognized President of Ukraine? I guess there are now three Ukraines? A suburb of Dallas wants to join Mexico, I guess their HOA President is who we should listen.

---

The recognized President of Ukraine is a Jewish comedian from Kryvyi Rih who has been President since 2019.

After running on a peace platform he then re-committed Ukrainian forces to trying to smash the Donbas separatists and thus sparked off a larger Russian military invasion.

A war that has now killed hundreds of thousands of Ukrainian men.


p.s.

The Donbas is the size of Pennsylvania and Crimea is the size of Massachusetts. Are you under the impression these areas are the size of a US city suburb? They have millions of ethnic Russians living there.

---

PN and MA? You say that like it is a big part of the largest Nation in Europe. There are ethnic subgroups everywhere! 1 million out of a population of 43 million? So, the nation should turn over Crimea, Donbas and whatever other area Putin wants for less that 2% of the population???? It is more economical for them to leave and move to their beloved Russia.

You are a humanist and people defending their borders is an affront to you. We get it. It is not my or your choice on whether they defend their borders and whether they want to join NATO (as sinister an organization as it is)...

RMF5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

[The United States has committed itself to expanding NATO to Russia's borders. NATO, of course, stands for "North Atlantic Treaty Organization." A nave onlooker might ask why countries like Bulgaria, Finland, and Poland would be included in such a treaty. The answer is pretty simple: NATO has nothing to do with the North Atlantic. It is an anti-Russian military alliance.

Russia knew (or, rather, knows) that Ukraine has been courting both the European Union and NATO. Kiev wants to unite itself politically, economically, and militarily to the West. That would mean the United States has a right to place more troops and artillery on Russia's border. Russia didn't like that, and so it lashed out.
But the question is why does the United States want to put troops and artillery on Russia's border? Why has it maintained and, indeed, expanded this anti-Russian alliance, even though its original objective (i.e., the destruction of the Soviet Union) has been accomplished?

Our leaders have been clear on that point. To quote Richard Moore, the current chief of MI6: "With the tragedy and destruction unfolding so distressingly in Ukraine, we should remember the values and hard-won freedoms that distinguish us from Putin, none more than LGBT+ rights."
This isn't Kremlin disinformation. These are the words coming from the horse's mouth. We hate Russia because they are mean to the gays.
Deacon Nicholas Kotar, the great novelist and translator, gave a wider view:

Quote:

---

What the Russian government is doing is setting a red line to the spread of NGO-style liberal democracy. And Ukraine, unfortunately, has been a buffer zone, and a kind of test-case, for the spread, not of a political system, but of a system of values, that is espoused by the elites only....The problem is that with all these colored revolutions, no matter how you look at it, the thing that comes in together with the money is an insistence, unfortunately, on the adoption of the Western liberal cultural milieu. It happened in Georgia, it happened in Ukraine, it happened everywhere.

---

Ultimately, this isn't about Russia. It's not even about Ukraine. It's about us. Western elites want us to believe that the triumph of "NGO-style liberal democracy" is inevitable everywhere. But it's not. Russia is living proof of that.]

---

It is all about Ukraine! They want to be part of the EU, NATO and the West to achieve a higher quality of life for their citizens.

The only living, and not so living, proof we have of anything is that the Russian system WILL NOT result in a higher quality of life for citizen! Nations that hitch its wagon to Russia end up with less freedom, worse economies and 2nd world level quality of lives. Why would ANY nation prefer Russia to the EU? How about this, let's look at those that do:

• Belarus
• Iran
• North Korea
• Cuba
• Syria
• Venezula
• Myanmar

You can say with a straight face that you would prefer that system and quality of life over the EU and NATO membership?

---

Well after a USA backed coup in 2014 I supposed they do.

At least Western and Central Ukraine do.

Eastern Ukrainians have been fighting for a decade now against the government in Kyiv and against western integration.

---

Who is the recognized President of Ukraine? I guess there are now three Ukraines? A suburb of Dallas wants to join Mexico, I guess their HOA President is who we should listen.

---

The recognized President of Ukraine is a Jewish comedian from Kryvyi Rih who has been President since 2019.

After running on a peace platform he then re-committed Ukrainian forces to trying to smash the Donbas separatists and thus sparked off a larger Russian military invasion.

A war that has now killed hundreds of thousands of Ukrainian men.


p.s.

The Donbas is the size of Pennsylvania and Crimea is the size of Massachusetts. Are you under the impression these areas are the size of a US city suburb? They have millions of ethnic Russians living there.

---

PN and MA? You say that like it is a big part of the largest Nation in Europe. There are ethnic subgroups everywhere! 1 million out of a population of 43 million? So, the nation should turn over Crimea, Donbas and whatever other area Putin wants for less that 2% of the population???? It is more economical for them to leave and move to their beloved Russia.

You are a humanist and people defending their borders is an affront to you. We get it. It is not my or your choice on whether they defend their borders and whether they want to join NATO (as sinister an organization as it is)...

---

Are you willing to kill people to keep them inside of an artificial political union?

The USA has supported ethnic secession movements in Kosovo, South Sudan, East Timor and many other places.

Was that wrong? And speaking of size... Kosovo and East Timor are smaller in size than Brewster County Texas

The country you live in today (the United States of America) was a separatist entity that broke off from Britain.

I guess you would really love the Redcoats in 1776 murdering those insurgents known as the Founding Fathers.

trey3216 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

[The United States has committed itself to expanding NATO to Russia's borders. NATO, of course, stands for "North Atlantic Treaty Organization." A nave onlooker might ask why countries like Bulgaria, Finland, and Poland would be included in such a treaty. The answer is pretty simple: NATO has nothing to do with the North Atlantic. It is an anti-Russian military alliance.

Russia knew (or, rather, knows) that Ukraine has been courting both the European Union and NATO. Kiev wants to unite itself politically, economically, and militarily to the West. That would mean the United States has a right to place more troops and artillery on Russia's border. Russia didn't like that, and so it lashed out.
But the question is why does the United States want to put troops and artillery on Russia's border? Why has it maintained and, indeed, expanded this anti-Russian alliance, even though its original objective (i.e., the destruction of the Soviet Union) has been accomplished?

Our leaders have been clear on that point. To quote Richard Moore, the current chief of MI6: "With the tragedy and destruction unfolding so distressingly in Ukraine, we should remember the values and hard-won freedoms that distinguish us from Putin, none more than LGBT+ rights."
This isn't Kremlin disinformation. These are the words coming from the horse's mouth. We hate Russia because they are mean to the gays.
Deacon Nicholas Kotar, the great novelist and translator, gave a wider view:

Quote:

---

What the Russian government is doing is setting a red line to the spread of NGO-style liberal democracy. And Ukraine, unfortunately, has been a buffer zone, and a kind of test-case, for the spread, not of a political system, but of a system of values, that is espoused by the elites only....The problem is that with all these colored revolutions, no matter how you look at it, the thing that comes in together with the money is an insistence, unfortunately, on the adoption of the Western liberal cultural milieu. It happened in Georgia, it happened in Ukraine, it happened everywhere.

---

Ultimately, this isn't about Russia. It's not even about Ukraine. It's about us. Western elites want us to believe that the triumph of "NGO-style liberal democracy" is inevitable everywhere. But it's not. Russia is living proof of that.]

---

It is all about Ukraine! They want to be part of the EU, NATO and the West to achieve a higher quality of life for their citizens.

The only living, and not so living, proof we have of anything is that the Russian system WILL NOT result in a higher quality of life for citizen! Nations that hitch its wagon to Russia end up with less freedom, worse economies and 2nd world level quality of lives. Why would ANY nation prefer Russia to the EU? How about this, let's look at those that do:

• Belarus
• Iran
• North Korea
• Cuba
• Syria
• Venezula
• Myanmar

You can say with a straight face that you would prefer that system and quality of life over the EU and NATO membership?

---

Well after a USA backed coup in 2014 I supposed they do.

At least Western and Central Ukraine do.

Eastern Ukrainians have been fighting for a decade now against the government in Kyiv and against western integration.

---

Eastern Ukrainians that were bought off and supplied by.....you guessed it...Russia

---

Glad the US would never stoop to such tactics.

trey3216 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

[The United States has committed itself to expanding NATO to Russia's borders. NATO, of course, stands for "North Atlantic Treaty Organization." A nave onlooker might ask why countries like Bulgaria, Finland, and Poland would be included in such a treaty. The answer is pretty simple: NATO has nothing to do with the North Atlantic. It is an anti-Russian military alliance.

Russia knew (or, rather, knows) that Ukraine has been courting both the European Union and NATO. Kiev wants to unite itself politically, economically, and militarily to the West. That would mean the United States has a right to place more troops and artillery on Russia's border. Russia didn't like that, and so it lashed out.
But the question is why does the United States want to put troops and artillery on Russia's border? Why has it maintained and, indeed, expanded this anti-Russian alliance, even though its original objective (i.e., the destruction of the Soviet Union) has been accomplished?

Our leaders have been clear on that point. To quote Richard Moore, the current chief of MI6: "With the tragedy and destruction unfolding so distressingly in Ukraine, we should remember the values and hard-won freedoms that distinguish us from Putin, none more than LGBT+ rights."
This isn't Kremlin disinformation. These are the words coming from the horse's mouth. We hate Russia because they are mean to the gays.
Deacon Nicholas Kotar, the great novelist and translator, gave a wider view:

Quote:

---

What the Russian government is doing is setting a red line to the spread of NGO-style liberal democracy. And Ukraine, unfortunately, has been a buffer zone, and a kind of test-case, for the spread, not of a political system, but of a system of values, that is espoused by the elites only....The problem is that with all these colored revolutions, no matter how you look at it, the thing that comes in together with the money is an insistence, unfortunately, on the adoption of the Western liberal cultural milieu. It happened in Georgia, it happened in Ukraine, it happened everywhere.

---

Ultimately, this isn't about Russia. It's not even about Ukraine. It's about us. Western elites want us to believe that the triumph of "NGO-style liberal democracy" is inevitable everywhere. But it's not. Russia is living proof of that.]

---

It is all about Ukraine! They want to be part of the EU, NATO and the West to achieve a higher quality of life for their citizens.

The only living, and not so living, proof we have of anything is that the Russian system WILL NOT result in a higher quality of life for citizen! Nations that hitch its wagon to Russia end up with less freedom, worse economies and 2nd world level quality of lives. Why would ANY nation prefer Russia to the EU? How about this, let's look at those that do:

• Belarus
• Iran
• North Korea
• Cuba
• Syria
• Venezula
• Myanmar

You can say with a straight face that you would prefer that system and quality of life over the EU and NATO membership?

---

Well after a USA backed coup in 2014 I supposed they do.

At least Western and Central Ukraine do.

Eastern Ukrainians have been fighting for a decade now against the government in Kyiv and against western integration.

---

Who is the recognized President of Ukraine? I guess there are now three Ukraines? A suburb of Dallas wants to join Mexico, I guess their HOA President is who we should listen.

---

The recognized President of Ukraine is a Jewish comedian from Kryvyi Rih who has been President since 2019.

After running on a peace platform he then re-committed Ukrainian forces to trying to smash the Donbas separatists and thus sparked off a larger Russian military invasion.

A war that has now killed hundreds of thousands of Ukrainian men.


p.s.

The Donbas is the size of Pennsylvania and Crimea is the size of Massachusetts. Are you under the impression these areas are the size of a US city suburb? They have millions of ethnic Russians living there.

---

Where are you seeing that hundreds of thousands of Ukrainian men have been killed? I'd surely like to see

---

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ukraine-war-already-with-up-354000-casualties-likely-drag-us-documents-2023-04-12/

[According to an assessment collated by the U.S. Defense Intelligence Agency, Russia has suffered 189,500-223,000 total casualties...Ukraine has suffered 124,500-131,000 total casualties]


https://www.lemonde.fr/en/international/article/2023/02/22/war-in-ukraine-hundreds-of-thousands-killed-and-wounded-on-both-sides_6016847_4.html

[How long can they last? As Moscow and Kyiv troops have been fighting each other for a year in Ukraine, with thousands of shells fired every day and hand-to-hand combat in the trenches of the Donbas, the sustainability of their losses remains one of the main unknowns of the war.

"The exact number of victims of the conflict in Ukraine, on both sides, is extremely difficult to assess but I think that when we know them, we will be stunned," said general Vincent Breton, head of the Centre interarmes de concepts, de doctrines et d'exprimentations (the French Army's Joint Center for Concepts, Doctrines and Experiments, CICDE), during a hearing at the Assemble Nationale on November 30 last year.]

Redbrickbear said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

[The United States has committed itself to expanding NATO to Russia's borders. NATO, of course, stands for "North Atlantic Treaty Organization." A nave onlooker might ask why countries like Bulgaria, Finland, and Poland would be included in such a treaty. The answer is pretty simple: NATO has nothing to do with the North Atlantic. It is an anti-Russian military alliance.

Russia knew (or, rather, knows) that Ukraine has been courting both the European Union and NATO. Kiev wants to unite itself politically, economically, and militarily to the West. That would mean the United States has a right to place more troops and artillery on Russia's border. Russia didn't like that, and so it lashed out.
But the question is why does the United States want to put troops and artillery on Russia's border? Why has it maintained and, indeed, expanded this anti-Russian alliance, even though its original objective (i.e., the destruction of the Soviet Union) has been accomplished?

Our leaders have been clear on that point. To quote Richard Moore, the current chief of MI6: "With the tragedy and destruction unfolding so distressingly in Ukraine, we should remember the values and hard-won freedoms that distinguish us from Putin, none more than LGBT+ rights."
This isn't Kremlin disinformation. These are the words coming from the horse's mouth. We hate Russia because they are mean to the gays.
Deacon Nicholas Kotar, the great novelist and translator, gave a wider view:

Quote:

---

What the Russian government is doing is setting a red line to the spread of NGO-style liberal democracy. And Ukraine, unfortunately, has been a buffer zone, and a kind of test-case, for the spread, not of a political system, but of a system of values, that is espoused by the elites only....The problem is that with all these colored revolutions, no matter how you look at it, the thing that comes in together with the money is an insistence, unfortunately, on the adoption of the Western liberal cultural milieu. It happened in Georgia, it happened in Ukraine, it happened everywhere.

---

Ultimately, this isn't about Russia. It's not even about Ukraine. It's about us. Western elites want us to believe that the triumph of "NGO-style liberal democracy" is inevitable everywhere. But it's not. Russia is living proof of that.]

---

It is all about Ukraine! They want to be part of the EU, NATO and the West to achieve a higher quality of life for their citizens.

The only living, and not so living, proof we have of anything is that the Russian system WILL NOT result in a higher quality of life for citizen! Nations that hitch its wagon to Russia end up with less freedom, worse economies and 2nd world level quality of lives. Why would ANY nation prefer Russia to the EU? How about this, let's look at those that do:

• Belarus
• Iran
• North Korea
• Cuba
• Syria
• Venezula
• Myanmar

You can say with a straight face that you would prefer that system and quality of life over the EU and NATO membership?

---

Well after a USA backed coup in 2014 I supposed they do.

At least Western and Central Ukraine do.

Eastern Ukrainians have been fighting for a decade now against the government in Kyiv and against western integration.

---

Who is the recognized President of Ukraine? I guess there are now three Ukraines? A suburb of Dallas wants to join Mexico, I guess their HOA President is who we should listen.

---

The recognized President of Ukraine is a Jewish comedian from Kryvyi Rih who has been President since 2019.

After running on a peace platform he then re-committed Ukrainian forces to trying to smash the Donbas separatists and thus sparked off a larger Russian military invasion.

A war that has now killed hundreds of thousands of Ukrainian men.


p.s.

The Donbas is the size of Pennsylvania and Crimea is the size of Massachusetts. Are you under the impression these areas are the size of a US city suburb? They have millions of ethnic Russians living there.

---

PN and MA? You say that like it is a big part of the largest Nation in Europe. There are ethnic subgroups everywhere! 1 million out of a population of 43 million? So, the nation should turn over Crimea, Donbas and whatever other area Putin wants for less that 2% of the population???? It is more economical for them to leave and move to their beloved Russia.

You are a humanist and people defending their borders is an affront to you. We get it. It is not my or your choice on whether they defend their borders and whether they want to join NATO (as sinister an organization as it is)...

---

Are you willing to kill people to keep them inside of an artificial political union?

The USA has supported ethnic secession movements in Kosovo, South Sudan, East Timor and many other places.

Was that wrong? And speaking of size... Kosovo and East Timor are smaller in size than Brewster County Texas

The country you live in today (the United States of America) was a separatist entity that broke off from Britain.

I guess you would really love the Redcoats in 1776 murdering those insurgents known as the Founding Fathers.

---

Who is the US killing? We have launched no missiles, bombed no one nor fired a shot.

As for the rest, this is not an insurgency this is an outright invasion by Russia on a sovereign nation. This is not Ukraine shedding the yoke. That was done over 30 years ago! How can you defend an outright invasion?

*taps sign*

"whataboutism is an extremely easy debate tactic."

Redbrickbear said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

[The United States has committed itself to expanding NATO to Russia's borders. NATO, of course, stands for "North Atlantic Treaty Organization." A nave onlooker might ask why countries like Bulgaria, Finland, and Poland would be included in such a treaty. The answer is pretty simple: NATO has nothing to do with the North Atlantic. It is an anti-Russian military alliance.

Russia knew (or, rather, knows) that Ukraine has been courting both the European Union and NATO. Kiev wants to unite itself politically, economically, and militarily to the West. That would mean the United States has a right to place more troops and artillery on Russia's border. Russia didn't like that, and so it lashed out.
But the question is why does the United States want to put troops and artillery on Russia's border? Why has it maintained and, indeed, expanded this anti-Russian alliance, even though its original objective (i.e., the destruction of the Soviet Union) has been accomplished?

Our leaders have been clear on that point. To quote Richard Moore, the current chief of MI6: "With the tragedy and destruction unfolding so distressingly in Ukraine, we should remember the values and hard-won freedoms that distinguish us from Putin, none more than LGBT+ rights."
This isn't Kremlin disinformation. These are the words coming from the horse's mouth. We hate Russia because they are mean to the gays.
Deacon Nicholas Kotar, the great novelist and translator, gave a wider view:

Quote:

---

What the Russian government is doing is setting a red line to the spread of NGO-style liberal democracy. And Ukraine, unfortunately, has been a buffer zone, and a kind of test-case, for the spread, not of a political system, but of a system of values, that is espoused by the elites only....The problem is that with all these colored revolutions, no matter how you look at it, the thing that comes in together with the money is an insistence, unfortunately, on the adoption of the Western liberal cultural milieu. It happened in Georgia, it happened in Ukraine, it happened everywhere.

---

Ultimately, this isn't about Russia. It's not even about Ukraine. It's about us. Western elites want us to believe that the triumph of "NGO-style liberal democracy" is inevitable everywhere. But it's not. Russia is living proof of that.]

---

It is all about Ukraine! They want to be part of the EU, NATO and the West to achieve a higher quality of life for their citizens.

The only living, and not so living, proof we have of anything is that the Russian system WILL NOT result in a higher quality of life for citizen! Nations that hitch its wagon to Russia end up with less freedom, worse economies and 2nd world level quality of lives. Why would ANY nation prefer Russia to the EU? How about this, let's look at those that do:

• Belarus
• Iran
• North Korea
• Cuba
• Syria
• Venezula
• Myanmar

You can say with a straight face that you would prefer that system and quality of life over the EU and NATO membership?

---

Well after a USA backed coup in 2014 I supposed they do.

At least Western and Central Ukraine do.

Eastern Ukrainians have been fighting for a decade now against the government in Kyiv and against western integration.

---

Who is the recognized President of Ukraine? I guess there are now three Ukraines? A suburb of Dallas wants to join Mexico, I guess their HOA President is who we should listen.

---

The recognized President of Ukraine is a Jewish comedian from Kryvyi Rih who has been President since 2019.

After running on a peace platform he then re-committed Ukrainian forces to trying to smash the Donbas separatists and thus sparked off a larger Russian military invasion.

A war that has now killed hundreds of thousands of Ukrainian men.


p.s.

The Donbas is the size of Pennsylvania and Crimea is the size of Massachusetts. Are you under the impression these areas are the size of a US city suburb? They have millions of ethnic Russians living there.

---

Where are you seeing that hundreds of thousands of Ukrainian men have been killed? I'd surely like to see

---

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ukraine-war-already-with-up-354000-casualties-likely-drag-us-documents-2023-04-12/

[According to an assessment collated by the U.S. Defense Intelligence Agency, Russia has suffered 189,500-223,000 total casualties...Ukraine has suffered 124,500-131,000 total casualties]


https://www.lemonde.fr/en/international/article/2023/02/22/war-in-ukraine-hundreds-of-thousands-killed-and-wounded-on-both-sides_6016847_4.html

[How long can they last? As Moscow and Kyiv troops have been fighting each other for a year in Ukraine, with thousands of shells fired every day and hand-to-hand combat in the trenches of the Donbas, the sustainability of their losses remains one of the main unknowns of the war.

"The exact number of victims of the conflict in Ukraine, on both sides, is extremely difficult to assess but I think that when we know them, we will be stunned," said general Vincent Breton, head of the Centre interarmes de concepts, de doctrines et d'exprimentations (the French Army's Joint Center for Concepts, Doctrines and Experiments, CICDE), during a hearing at the Assemble Nationale on November 30 last year.]

---

Casualties includes injured and killed. It's also well documented that the injured to killed ratio favors Ukraine by a wide margin...because they actually care to make sure their injured don't die of treatable wounds. The Russians have been scrounging for food since about 2 weeks into this deal.

trey3216 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

[The United States has committed itself to expanding NATO to Russia's borders. NATO, of course, stands for "North Atlantic Treaty Organization." A nave onlooker might ask why countries like Bulgaria, Finland, and Poland would be included in such a treaty. The answer is pretty simple: NATO has nothing to do with the North Atlantic. It is an anti-Russian military alliance.

Russia knew (or, rather, knows) that Ukraine has been courting both the European Union and NATO. Kiev wants to unite itself politically, economically, and militarily to the West. That would mean the United States has a right to place more troops and artillery on Russia's border. Russia didn't like that, and so it lashed out.
But the question is why does the United States want to put troops and artillery on Russia's border? Why has it maintained and, indeed, expanded this anti-Russian alliance, even though its original objective (i.e., the destruction of the Soviet Union) has been accomplished?

Our leaders have been clear on that point. To quote Richard Moore, the current chief of MI6: "With the tragedy and destruction unfolding so distressingly in Ukraine, we should remember the values and hard-won freedoms that distinguish us from Putin, none more than LGBT+ rights."
This isn't Kremlin disinformation. These are the words coming from the horse's mouth. We hate Russia because they are mean to the gays.
Deacon Nicholas Kotar, the great novelist and translator, gave a wider view:

Quote:

---

What the Russian government is doing is setting a red line to the spread of NGO-style liberal democracy. And Ukraine, unfortunately, has been a buffer zone, and a kind of test-case, for the spread, not of a political system, but of a system of values, that is espoused by the elites only....The problem is that with all these colored revolutions, no matter how you look at it, the thing that comes in together with the money is an insistence, unfortunately, on the adoption of the Western liberal cultural milieu. It happened in Georgia, it happened in Ukraine, it happened everywhere.

---

Ultimately, this isn't about Russia. It's not even about Ukraine. It's about us. Western elites want us to believe that the triumph of "NGO-style liberal democracy" is inevitable everywhere. But it's not. Russia is living proof of that.]

---

It is all about Ukraine! They want to be part of the EU, NATO and the West to achieve a higher quality of life for their citizens.

The only living, and not so living, proof we have of anything is that the Russian system WILL NOT result in a higher quality of life for citizen! Nations that hitch its wagon to Russia end up with less freedom, worse economies and 2nd world level quality of lives. Why would ANY nation prefer Russia to the EU? How about this, let's look at those that do:

• Belarus
• Iran
• North Korea
• Cuba
• Syria
• Venezula
• Myanmar

You can say with a straight face that you would prefer that system and quality of life over the EU and NATO membership?

---

Well after a USA backed coup in 2014 I supposed they do.

At least Western and Central Ukraine do.

Eastern Ukrainians have been fighting for a decade now against the government in Kyiv and against western integration.

---

Eastern Ukrainians that were bought off and supplied by.....you guessed it...Russia

---

And who do you think bought off and supplied the Taliban fighters in Afghanistan in the 1980s?

Come on....lets not even go down this road.

You could even make a strong argument that the French were responsible for the success the America war of independence. They certain paid for it and supplied it with the weapons and cash need for success.

"Ukraine has suffered 124,500-131,000 total casualties, including 15,500-17,500 killed in action"

Casualties do not always equal deaths.

trey3216 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

[The United States has committed itself to expanding NATO to Russia's borders. NATO, of course, stands for "North Atlantic Treaty Organization." A nave onlooker might ask why countries like Bulgaria, Finland, and Poland would be included in such a treaty. The answer is pretty simple: NATO has nothing to do with the North Atlantic. It is an anti-Russian military alliance.

Russia knew (or, rather, knows) that Ukraine has been courting both the European Union and NATO. Kiev wants to unite itself politically, economically, and militarily to the West. That would mean the United States has a right to place more troops and artillery on Russia's border. Russia didn't like that, and so it lashed out.
But the question is why does the United States want to put troops and artillery on Russia's border? Why has it maintained and, indeed, expanded this anti-Russian alliance, even though its original objective (i.e., the destruction of the Soviet Union) has been accomplished?

Our leaders have been clear on that point. To quote Richard Moore, the current chief of MI6: "With the tragedy and destruction unfolding so distressingly in Ukraine, we should remember the values and hard-won freedoms that distinguish us from Putin, none more than LGBT+ rights."
This isn't Kremlin disinformation. These are the words coming from the horse's mouth. We hate Russia because they are mean to the gays.
Deacon Nicholas Kotar, the great novelist and translator, gave a wider view:

Quote:

---

What the Russian government is doing is setting a red line to the spread of NGO-style liberal democracy. And Ukraine, unfortunately, has been a buffer zone, and a kind of test-case, for the spread, not of a political system, but of a system of values, that is espoused by the elites only....The problem is that with all these colored revolutions, no matter how you look at it, the thing that comes in together with the money is an insistence, unfortunately, on the adoption of the Western liberal cultural milieu. It happened in Georgia, it happened in Ukraine, it happened everywhere.

---

Ultimately, this isn't about Russia. It's not even about Ukraine. It's about us. Western elites want us to believe that the triumph of "NGO-style liberal democracy" is inevitable everywhere. But it's not. Russia is living proof of that.]

---

It is all about Ukraine! They want to be part of the EU, NATO and the West to achieve a higher quality of life for their citizens.

The only living, and not so living, proof we have of anything is that the Russian system WILL NOT result in a higher quality of life for citizen! Nations that hitch its wagon to Russia end up with less freedom, worse economies and 2nd world level quality of lives. Why would ANY nation prefer Russia to the EU? How about this, let's look at those that do:

• Belarus
• Iran
• North Korea
• Cuba
• Syria
• Venezula
• Myanmar

You can say with a straight face that you would prefer that system and quality of life over the EU and NATO membership?

---

Well after a USA backed coup in 2014 I supposed they do.

At least Western and Central Ukraine do.

Eastern Ukrainians have been fighting for a decade now against the government in Kyiv and against western integration.

---

Who is the recognized President of Ukraine? I guess there are now three Ukraines? A suburb of Dallas wants to join Mexico, I guess their HOA President is who we should listen.

---

The recognized President of Ukraine is a Jewish comedian from Kryvyi Rih who has been President since 2019.

After running on a peace platform he then re-committed Ukrainian forces to trying to smash the Donbas separatists and thus sparked off a larger Russian military invasion.

A war that has now killed hundreds of thousands of Ukrainian men.


p.s.

The Donbas is the size of Pennsylvania and Crimea is the size of Massachusetts. Are you under the impression these areas are the size of a US city suburb? They have millions of ethnic Russians living there.

---

Where are you seeing that hundreds of thousands of Ukrainian men have been killed? I'd surely like to see

---

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ukraine-war-already-with-up-354000-casualties-likely-drag-us-documents-2023-04-12/

[According to an assessment collated by the U.S. Defense Intelligence Agency, Russia has suffered 189,500-223,000 total casualties...Ukraine has suffered 124,500-131,000 total casualties]


https://www.lemonde.fr/en/international/article/2023/02/22/war-in-ukraine-hundreds-of-thousands-killed-and-wounded-on-both-sides_6016847_4.html

[How long can they last? As Moscow and Kyiv troops have been fighting each other for a year in Ukraine, with thousands of shells fired every day and hand-to-hand combat in the trenches of the Donbas, the sustainability of their losses remains one of the main unknowns of the war.

"The exact number of victims of the conflict in Ukraine, on both sides, is extremely difficult to assess but I think that when we know them, we will be stunned," said general Vincent Breton, head of the Centre interarmes de concepts, de doctrines et d'exprimentations (the French Army's Joint Center for Concepts, Doctrines and Experiments, CICDE), during a hearing at the Assemble Nationale on November 30 last year.]

---

Casualties includes injured and killed. It's also well documented that the injured to killed ratio favors Ukraine by a wide margin...because they actually care to make sure their injured don't die of treatable wounds. The Russians have been scrounging for food since about 2 weeks into this deal.

---

Beat me to it.

trey3216 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

[The United States has committed itself to expanding NATO to Russia's borders. NATO, of course, stands for "North Atlantic Treaty Organization." A nave onlooker might ask why countries like Bulgaria, Finland, and Poland would be included in such a treaty. The answer is pretty simple: NATO has nothing to do with the North Atlantic. It is an anti-Russian military alliance.

Russia knew (or, rather, knows) that Ukraine has been courting both the European Union and NATO. Kiev wants to unite itself politically, economically, and militarily to the West. That would mean the United States has a right to place more troops and artillery on Russia's border. Russia didn't like that, and so it lashed out.
But the question is why does the United States want to put troops and artillery on Russia's border? Why has it maintained and, indeed, expanded this anti-Russian alliance, even though its original objective (i.e., the destruction of the Soviet Union) has been accomplished?

Our leaders have been clear on that point. To quote Richard Moore, the current chief of MI6: "With the tragedy and destruction unfolding so distressingly in Ukraine, we should remember the values and hard-won freedoms that distinguish us from Putin, none more than LGBT+ rights."
This isn't Kremlin disinformation. These are the words coming from the horse's mouth. We hate Russia because they are mean to the gays.
Deacon Nicholas Kotar, the great novelist and translator, gave a wider view:

Quote:

---

What the Russian government is doing is setting a red line to the spread of NGO-style liberal democracy. And Ukraine, unfortunately, has been a buffer zone, and a kind of test-case, for the spread, not of a political system, but of a system of values, that is espoused by the elites only....The problem is that with all these colored revolutions, no matter how you look at it, the thing that comes in together with the money is an insistence, unfortunately, on the adoption of the Western liberal cultural milieu. It happened in Georgia, it happened in Ukraine, it happened everywhere.

---

Ultimately, this isn't about Russia. It's not even about Ukraine. It's about us. Western elites want us to believe that the triumph of "NGO-style liberal democracy" is inevitable everywhere. But it's not. Russia is living proof of that.]

---

It is all about Ukraine! They want to be part of the EU, NATO and the West to achieve a higher quality of life for their citizens.

The only living, and not so living, proof we have of anything is that the Russian system WILL NOT result in a higher quality of life for citizen! Nations that hitch its wagon to Russia end up with less freedom, worse economies and 2nd world level quality of lives. Why would ANY nation prefer Russia to the EU? How about this, let's look at those that do:

• Belarus
• Iran
• North Korea
• Cuba
• Syria
• Venezula
• Myanmar

You can say with a straight face that you would prefer that system and quality of life over the EU and NATO membership?

---

Well after a USA backed coup in 2014 I supposed they do.

At least Western and Central Ukraine do.

Eastern Ukrainians have been fighting for a decade now against the government in Kyiv and against western integration.

---

Who is the recognized President of Ukraine? I guess there are now three Ukraines? A suburb of Dallas wants to join Mexico, I guess their HOA President is who we should listen.

---

The recognized President of Ukraine is a Jewish comedian from Kryvyi Rih who has been President since 2019.

After running on a peace platform he then re-committed Ukrainian forces to trying to smash the Donbas separatists and thus sparked off a larger Russian military invasion.

A war that has now killed hundreds of thousands of Ukrainian men.


p.s.

The Donbas is the size of Pennsylvania and Crimea is the size of Massachusetts. Are you under the impression these areas are the size of a US city suburb? They have millions of ethnic Russians living there.

---

Where are you seeing that hundreds of thousands of Ukrainian men have been killed? I'd surely like to see

---

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ukraine-war-already-with-up-354000-casualties-likely-drag-us-documents-2023-04-12/

[According to an assessment collated by the U.S. Defense Intelligence Agency, Russia has suffered 189,500-223,000 total casualties...Ukraine has suffered 124,500-131,000 total casualties]


https://www.lemonde.fr/en/international/article/2023/02/22/war-in-ukraine-hundreds-of-thousands-killed-and-wounded-on-both-sides_6016847_4.html

[How long can they last? As Moscow and Kyiv troops have been fighting each other for a year in Ukraine, with thousands of shells fired every day and hand-to-hand combat in the trenches of the Donbas, the sustainability of their losses remains one of the main unknowns of the war.

"The exact number of victims of the conflict in Ukraine, on both sides, is extremely difficult to assess but I think that when we know them, we will be stunned," said general Vincent Breton, head of the Centre interarmes de concepts, de doctrines et d'exprimentations (the French Army's Joint Center for Concepts, Doctrines and Experiments, CICDE), during a hearing at the Assemble Nationale on November 30 last year.]

---

Casualties includes injured and killed. It's also well documented that the injured to killed ratio favors Ukraine by a wide margin...because they actually care to make sure their injured don't die of treatable wounds. The Russians have been scrounging for food since about 2 weeks into this deal.

---

Then lets be clear....hundreds of thousands of killed and wounded.

Some dead...some who lived but with their arms and legs blown off or with other horrific wounds.

At what point is all this human suffering (and the physical destruction of Ukraine) worth it?

All while Ukraine disappears demographically before our very eyes.

Bear8084 said:

---

*taps sign*

"whataboutism is an extremely easy debate tactic."

---

My point isn't about Russian support per se, but what it implies (or doesn't imply) about Ukraine. Some of you would have us believe that anti-Russian sentiment is the only "real" feeling among Ukrainians while anything pro-Russian is necessarily fake. That is far from the truth.

Sam Lowry said:

---

Bear8084 said:

---

*taps sign*

"whataboutism is an extremely easy debate tactic."

---

My point isn't about Russian support per se, but what it implies (or doesn't imply) about Ukraine. Some of you would have us believe that anti-Russian sentiment is the only "real" feeling among Ukrainians while anything pro-Russian is necessarily fake. That is far from the truth.

---

Not really. Especially after 2022.

Redbrickbear said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

[The United States has committed itself to expanding NATO to Russia's borders. NATO, of course, stands for "North Atlantic Treaty Organization." A nave onlooker might ask why countries like Bulgaria, Finland, and Poland would be included in such a treaty. The answer is pretty simple: NATO has nothing to do with the North Atlantic. It is an anti-Russian military alliance.

Russia knew (or, rather, knows) that Ukraine has been courting both the European Union and NATO. Kiev wants to unite itself politically, economically, and militarily to the West. That would mean the United States has a right to place more troops and artillery on Russia's border. Russia didn't like that, and so it lashed out.
But the question is why does the United States want to put troops and artillery on Russia's border? Why has it maintained and, indeed, expanded this anti-Russian alliance, even though its original objective (i.e., the destruction of the Soviet Union) has been accomplished?

Our leaders have been clear on that point. To quote Richard Moore, the current chief of MI6: "With the tragedy and destruction unfolding so distressingly in Ukraine, we should remember the values and hard-won freedoms that distinguish us from Putin, none more than LGBT+ rights."
This isn't Kremlin disinformation. These are the words coming from the horse's mouth. We hate Russia because they are mean to the gays.
Deacon Nicholas Kotar, the great novelist and translator, gave a wider view:

Quote:

---

What the Russian government is doing is setting a red line to the spread of NGO-style liberal democracy. And Ukraine, unfortunately, has been a buffer zone, and a kind of test-case, for the spread, not of a political system, but of a system of values, that is espoused by the elites only....The problem is that with all these colored revolutions, no matter how you look at it, the thing that comes in together with the money is an insistence, unfortunately, on the adoption of the Western liberal cultural milieu. It happened in Georgia, it happened in Ukraine, it happened everywhere.

---

Ultimately, this isn't about Russia. It's not even about Ukraine. It's about us. Western elites want us to believe that the triumph of "NGO-style liberal democracy" is inevitable everywhere. But it's not. Russia is living proof of that.]

---

It is all about Ukraine! They want to be part of the EU, NATO and the West to achieve a higher quality of life for their citizens.

The only living, and not so living, proof we have of anything is that the Russian system WILL NOT result in a higher quality of life for citizen! Nations that hitch its wagon to Russia end up with less freedom, worse economies and 2nd world level quality of lives. Why would ANY nation prefer Russia to the EU? How about this, let's look at those that do:

• Belarus
• Iran
• North Korea
• Cuba
• Syria
• Venezula
• Myanmar

You can say with a straight face that you would prefer that system and quality of life over the EU and NATO membership?

---

Well after a USA backed coup in 2014 I supposed they do.

At least Western and Central Ukraine do.

Eastern Ukrainians have been fighting for a decade now against the government in Kyiv and against western integration.

---

Eastern Ukrainians that were bought off and supplied by.....you guessed it...Russia

---

And who do you think bought off and supplied the Taliban fighters in Afghanistan in the 1980s?

Come on....lets not even go down this road.

You could even make a strong argument that the French were responsible for the success the America war of independence. They certain paid for it and supplied it with the weapons and cash need for success.

---

Which is why it's so damn funny you get angry about America now, but we know why it frustrates you.

Hell, Trump is finally getting his goal/wish of everyone in NATO pulling their weight. lol

Bear8084 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Bear8084 said:

---

*taps sign*

"whataboutism is an extremely easy debate tactic."

---

My point isn't about Russian support per se, but what it implies (or doesn't imply) about Ukraine. Some of you would have us believe that anti-Russian sentiment is the only "real" feeling among Ukrainians while anything pro-Russian is necessarily fake. That is far from the truth.

---

Not really. Especially after 2022.

---

That is a talking point that is very very hard to prove.

How much anti-Russian sentiment do you think increased in Crimea or Donbass post 2022? How can it be measured or proven? What statistical measurement should we use to determine that?

Or how can we prove that pro-Russian sentiment in those areas has actual increased?

If I was a resident of Kyiv and saw Russian tanks attacking my city I would be far less friendly to Russia...but I was probably not very pro-Russian to begin with.

If I was a resident of Donbas and saw my town being attacked for 10 years by Ukrainian government forces and my buddies killed I would probably be much more pro-Russian.

trey3216 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

[The United States has committed itself to expanding NATO to Russia's borders. NATO, of course, stands for "North Atlantic Treaty Organization." A nave onlooker might ask why countries like Bulgaria, Finland, and Poland would be included in such a treaty. The answer is pretty simple: NATO has nothing to do with the North Atlantic. It is an anti-Russian military alliance.

Russia knew (or, rather, knows) that Ukraine has been courting both the European Union and NATO. Kiev wants to unite itself politically, economically, and militarily to the West. That would mean the United States has a right to place more troops and artillery on Russia's border. Russia didn't like that, and so it lashed out.
But the question is why does the United States want to put troops and artillery on Russia's border? Why has it maintained and, indeed, expanded this anti-Russian alliance, even though its original objective (i.e., the destruction of the Soviet Union) has been accomplished?

Our leaders have been clear on that point. To quote Richard Moore, the current chief of MI6: "With the tragedy and destruction unfolding so distressingly in Ukraine, we should remember the values and hard-won freedoms that distinguish us from Putin, none more than LGBT+ rights."
This isn't Kremlin disinformation. These are the words coming from the horse's mouth. We hate Russia because they are mean to the gays.
Deacon Nicholas Kotar, the great novelist and translator, gave a wider view:

Quote:

---

What the Russian government is doing is setting a red line to the spread of NGO-style liberal democracy. And Ukraine, unfortunately, has been a buffer zone, and a kind of test-case, for the spread, not of a political system, but of a system of values, that is espoused by the elites only....The problem is that with all these colored revolutions, no matter how you look at it, the thing that comes in together with the money is an insistence, unfortunately, on the adoption of the Western liberal cultural milieu. It happened in Georgia, it happened in Ukraine, it happened everywhere.

---

Ultimately, this isn't about Russia. It's not even about Ukraine. It's about us. Western elites want us to believe that the triumph of "NGO-style liberal democracy" is inevitable everywhere. But it's not. Russia is living proof of that.]

---

It is all about Ukraine! They want to be part of the EU, NATO and the West to achieve a higher quality of life for their citizens.

The only living, and not so living, proof we have of anything is that the Russian system WILL NOT result in a higher quality of life for citizen! Nations that hitch its wagon to Russia end up with less freedom, worse economies and 2nd world level quality of lives. Why would ANY nation prefer Russia to the EU? How about this, let's look at those that do:

• Belarus
• Iran
• North Korea
• Cuba
• Syria
• Venezula
• Myanmar

You can say with a straight face that you would prefer that system and quality of life over the EU and NATO membership?

---

Well after a USA backed coup in 2014 I supposed they do.

At least Western and Central Ukraine do.

Eastern Ukrainians have been fighting for a decade now against the government in Kyiv and against western integration.

---

Eastern Ukrainians that were bought off and supplied by.....you guessed it...Russia

---

And who do you think bought off and supplied the Taliban fighters in Afghanistan in the 1980s?

Come on....lets not even go down this road.

You could even make a strong argument that the French were responsible for the success the America war of independence. They certain paid for it and supplied it with the weapons and cash need for success.

---

Which is why it's so damn funny you get angry about America now, but we know why it frustrates you.

Hell, Trump is finally getting his goal/wish of everyone in NATO pulling their weight. lol

---

Why would I be angry about America now?

Are you implying that the D.C. ruling class and its goals are one in the same as America?

Are Nation and State mystically merged?

You seem to think whatever the power players in D.C. decide is what is best for America.

Bear8084 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Bear8084 said:

---

*taps sign*

"whataboutism is an extremely easy debate tactic."

---

My point isn't about Russian support per se, but what it implies (or doesn't imply) about Ukraine. Some of you would have us believe that anti-Russian sentiment is the only "real" feeling among Ukrainians while anything pro-Russian is necessarily fake. That is far from the truth.

---

Not really. Especially after 2022.

---

I've always been amused by claims that the resistance was nothing but a Russian operation in disguise. If that's true, why was the government arresting and "disappearing" ordinary Ukrainians who were accused of pro-Russian sympathies? What became of these innocent patriots who were so wrongly accused? Surely it's not your claim that Kyiv acted out of sheer cruelty or paranoia.

Sam Lowry said:

---

Bear8084 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Bear8084 said:

---

*taps sign*

"whataboutism is an extremely easy debate tactic."

---

My point isn't about Russian support per se, but what it implies (or doesn't imply) about Ukraine. Some of you would have us believe that anti-Russian sentiment is the only "real" feeling among Ukrainians while anything pro-Russian is necessarily fake. That is far from the truth.

---

Not really. Especially after 2022.

---

I've always been amused by claims that the resistance was nothing but a Russian operation in disguise. If that's true, why was the government arresting and "disappearing" ordinary Ukrainians who were accused of pro-Russian sympathies? What became of these innocent patriots who were so wrongly accused? Surely it's not your claim that Kyiv acted out of sheer cruelty or paranoia.

---

Because it was a Russian operation. There was no popular movement to begin with.

Bear8084 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Bear8084 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Bear8084 said:

---

*taps sign*

"whataboutism is an extremely easy debate tactic."

---

My point isn't about Russian support per se, but what it implies (or doesn't imply) about Ukraine. Some of you would have us believe that anti-Russian sentiment is the only "real" feeling among Ukrainians while anything pro-Russian is necessarily fake. That is far from the truth.

---

Not really. Especially after 2022.

---

I've always been amused by claims that the resistance was nothing but a Russian operation in disguise. If that's true, why was the government arresting and "disappearing" ordinary Ukrainians who were accused of pro-Russian sympathies? What became of these innocent patriots who were so wrongly accused? Surely it's not your claim that Kyiv acted out of sheer cruelty or paranoia.

---

Because it was a Russian operation. There was no popular movement to begin with.

---

Proof?

Redbrickbear said:

---

Bear8084 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Bear8084 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Bear8084 said:

---

*taps sign*

"whataboutism is an extremely easy debate tactic."

---

My point isn't about Russian support per se, but what it implies (or doesn't imply) about Ukraine. Some of you would have us believe that anti-Russian sentiment is the only "real" feeling among Ukrainians while anything pro-Russian is necessarily fake. That is far from the truth.

---

Not really. Especially after 2022.

---

I've always been amused by claims that the resistance was nothing but a Russian operation in disguise. If that's true, why was the government arresting and "disappearing" ordinary Ukrainians who were accused of pro-Russian sympathies? What became of these innocent patriots who were so wrongly accused? Surely it's not your claim that Kyiv acted out of sheer cruelty or paranoia.

---

Because it was a Russian operation. There was no popular movement to begin with.

---

Proof?

---

Yes small groups of pro-Russian people show a popular moment. It's why Igor and his merry band of criminals practically begged Russia to help because they were losing ground and almost Donetsk City itself.

At some point around 2013-2014 Pushilin was recruited by the Kremlin to instigate civil unrest in the Donbas region. This became evident from the 2016 leaked e-mails of Vladislav Surkov, the Putin aide who planned the whole annexation theater in East of Ukraine.

6/16 pic.twitter.com/noWoULPgWE

— Pekka Kallioniemi (@P_Kallioniemi) March 6, 2023

Redbrickbear said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

[The United States has committed itself to expanding NATO to Russia's borders. NATO, of course, stands for "North Atlantic Treaty Organization." A nave onlooker might ask why countries like Bulgaria, Finland, and Poland would be included in such a treaty. The answer is pretty simple: NATO has nothing to do with the North Atlantic. It is an anti-Russian military alliance.

Russia knew (or, rather, knows) that Ukraine has been courting both the European Union and NATO. Kiev wants to unite itself politically, economically, and militarily to the West. That would mean the United States has a right to place more troops and artillery on Russia's border. Russia didn't like that, and so it lashed out.
But the question is why does the United States want to put troops and artillery on Russia's border? Why has it maintained and, indeed, expanded this anti-Russian alliance, even though its original objective (i.e., the destruction of the Soviet Union) has been accomplished?

Our leaders have been clear on that point. To quote Richard Moore, the current chief of MI6: "With the tragedy and destruction unfolding so distressingly in Ukraine, we should remember the values and hard-won freedoms that distinguish us from Putin, none more than LGBT+ rights."
This isn't Kremlin disinformation. These are the words coming from the horse's mouth. We hate Russia because they are mean to the gays.
Deacon Nicholas Kotar, the great novelist and translator, gave a wider view:

Quote:

---

What the Russian government is doing is setting a red line to the spread of NGO-style liberal democracy. And Ukraine, unfortunately, has been a buffer zone, and a kind of test-case, for the spread, not of a political system, but of a system of values, that is espoused by the elites only....The problem is that with all these colored revolutions, no matter how you look at it, the thing that comes in together with the money is an insistence, unfortunately, on the adoption of the Western liberal cultural milieu. It happened in Georgia, it happened in Ukraine, it happened everywhere.

---

Ultimately, this isn't about Russia. It's not even about Ukraine. It's about us. Western elites want us to believe that the triumph of "NGO-style liberal democracy" is inevitable everywhere. But it's not. Russia is living proof of that.]

---

It is all about Ukraine! They want to be part of the EU, NATO and the West to achieve a higher quality of life for their citizens.

The only living, and not so living, proof we have of anything is that the Russian system WILL NOT result in a higher quality of life for citizen! Nations that hitch its wagon to Russia end up with less freedom, worse economies and 2nd world level quality of lives. Why would ANY nation prefer Russia to the EU? How about this, let's look at those that do:

• Belarus
• Iran
• North Korea
• Cuba
• Syria
• Venezula
• Myanmar

You can say with a straight face that you would prefer that system and quality of life over the EU and NATO membership?

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Well after a USA backed coup in 2014 I supposed they do.

At least Western and Central Ukraine do.

Eastern Ukrainians have been fighting for a decade now against the government in Kyiv and against western integration.

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Eastern Ukrainians that were bought off and supplied by.....you guessed it...Russia

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And who do you think bought off and supplied the Taliban fighters in Afghanistan in the 1980s?

Come on....lets not even go down this road.

You could even make a strong argument that the French were responsible for the success the America war of independence. They certain paid for it and supplied it with the weapons and cash need for success.

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Which is why it's so damn funny you get angry about America now, but we know why it frustrates you.

Hell, Trump is finally getting his goal/wish of everyone in NATO pulling their weight. lol

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Why would I be angry about America now?

Are you implying that the D.C. ruling class and its goals are one in the same as America?

Are Nation and State mystically merged?

You seem to think whatever the power players in D.C. decide is what is best for America.

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I'm sorry the CSA didn't fully pan out for you.

Bear8084 said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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Bear8084 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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Bear8084 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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Bear8084 said:

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*taps sign*

"whataboutism is an extremely easy debate tactic."

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My point isn't about Russian support per se, but what it implies (or doesn't imply) about Ukraine. Some of you would have us believe that anti-Russian sentiment is the only "real" feeling among Ukrainians while anything pro-Russian is necessarily fake. That is far from the truth.

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Not really. Especially after 2022.

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I've always been amused by claims that the resistance was nothing but a Russian operation in disguise. If that's true, why was the government arresting and "disappearing" ordinary Ukrainians who were accused of pro-Russian sympathies? What became of these innocent patriots who were so wrongly accused? Surely it's not your claim that Kyiv acted out of sheer cruelty or paranoia.

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Because it was a Russian operation. There was no popular movement to begin with.

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Proof?

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Yes small groups of pro-Russian people show a popular moment. It's why Igor and his merry band of criminals practically begged Russia to help because they were losing ground and almost Donetsk City itself.

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Somewhere close to 20,000 separatists have died fighting the government forces of Kyiv since 2014.

That is some "small" group.

If you want to make an argument that pro-Russian sentiment is over blow in Odessa or Kharkiv...fine.

But saying that it does not exist in large numbers in Crimea and Donbas is just idiotic.

Even Western news and intelligence organs like the BBC and NBC acknowledge broad support inside Crimea and Donbas.

lol hell in that NBC video a local tartar says his son is off fighting for the Russians. If there was one single group in Crimea you could expect to be against Russia it would be the muslim tartars...but apparently not.