They can see a breaking point, but not for Russia. That why they've reverted to their old tactics. It's now or never.FLBear5630 said:You act like this is a bad thing? Last Ukrainian? Everything written points to a Ukrainian breakthrough.Sam Lowry said:You're right about one thing--the Ukes know a breaking point is near. You wanted to see us fight to the last Ukrainian. Looks like you won't have to wait much longer.whiterock said:See Bear 8084's post. ISW is unable to visually confirm significant advances. As I noted, the advances claimed are not significant and Uke withdrawals to more easily defendable terrain are not necessarily a net-gain for Russia......Sam Lowry said:It's not yet clear that Ukraine controls Klishschiivka or Andriivka. They still have Yahidne and Opytne to deal with before surrounding Bakhmut. Ignoring it would be the smartest thing they've done in a long time, but the rhetoric from Kiev suggests they're about to repeat their mistake. Ukraine's best tank brigades (33rd and 47th) were slaughtered at Robotyne in the early days of the offensive. They adopted the attrition strategy out of necessity. They're now attacking that area with large numbers of tanks and again taking heavy losses. All of which suits the Russians just fine.whiterock said:The rate of advance has accelerate from meters per day, to a kilometer or two. That works out to 10-25km total for the past six weeks. It is tactically significant, as the advances around Donetsk and Bakhmut indeed are. It is not, however, anywhere near Russia.Sam Lowry said:You've been saying this for a couple of months. If the Ukrainians were advancing kilometers per day, they'd be in Russia by now.whiterock said:
Pravda today is confirming that Ukraine has now captured Avdiivka, on the northern outskirts of Donetsk City. It is of course symbolically significant that Ukrainian troops are on the outskirts of the capitol city of Donetsk province. But there is a far more important factor at play. Check the map.
The black lines are railways. When Ukraine seizes that rail yard in downtown Donetsk, or encircles and besieges Donetsk, all Russian units west of Donetsk are severed from rail communication directly to Russia. All supply shipments from Russia to units on the Kherson and Zapo fronts will have to be trucked over a single highway from Rostov to Melitopol, or on rail/truck lines via Crimea (which of course must traverse the Kerch Bridge AND the two Svash chokepoints, one of which was reduced to pontoon bridge a couple of weeks ago.
when Donetsk falls, Crimea is effectively under siege. Russia will, at some point, be forced by supply issue to withdraw their western armies to the Crimea.
None of that is imminent. But such things are subject to the "slowly, then suddenly" model of failure. Russia is losing ground by the kilometer every day. No single kilometer is terribly important. Until one is. Those rail yards in Donetsk are terribly important.
Ukraine COULD advance down from Donetsk and cross into Russian territory to cut the highway between Rostov and Melitopol. They have are no reserves to stop it, other than the grandpas and schoolboys that typically make up territorial guards units. Interestingly, there is an unverified report out today that Russia has rigged the bridges in/out of Melitopol with explosives. If true, that would suggest that Russia is starting to make contingency plans for the collapse of the center of their line in Donetsk, which happens to be a primary area of Ukrainian gains.
Imagine the spectacle of 200k troops or so on the Zapo front being supplied primarily across a pontoon bridge across the Svash, and there is no maintenance yard to supply broken down trucks with new batteries or tires because Ukraine blew it all up yesterday.
And the Uke heavy brigades have still not been engaged.......
More important is, it is amply clear from reports that the Ukes are doing exactly what I described several weeks ago - making cautious tactical movements to seize positions, then settling in and awaiting the inevitable human wave counter-attacks. Russians are obliging. The primary strategic objective of Uke attacks appear, however, not to be making the "big breakthrough" but rather attriting Russian artillery, which is being decimated. Russian communication and fire control procedures remain antiquated. They are emplaced and organized to do preparatory fires in support of Russian attacks, not respond to random fire missions, and of course the fuel and fleet to move tubes are in short supply.
Bakhmut has already been effectively encircled. Uke artillery already covers all lines of Russian communication. Klishchiivka is high ground which affords visual observation of all of those lines, so now any vehicle which attempts to enter/leave Bakhmut will be destroyed. I doubt Uke will make a serious attempt to take Bakhmut. They'll bypass it and let the Russians either surrender, or exhaust themselves in breakout attacks.
Same cannot be said for Donetsk. Uke will need it for symbolism, and for the rail yards.
If you want to see accelerated progress, keep your eye on the northeast. There's no mention of it in Western media, but the Russians are advancing at a half dozen or so points and have crossed the Zherebets River into Nadia and Serhiivka in the last couple of days. From there it's a straight shot to Borova and the chance to sever the Ukrainian line east of the Oskil.
as for your sources on the Uke offensive.... Here's what ISW has been able to confirm, usually with imagery.
Ukrainian forces launched a significant mechanized counteroffensive operation in western Zaporizhia Oblast on July 26 and appear to have broken through certain pre-prepared Russian defensive positions south of Orikhiv. Russian sources, including the Russian Ministry of Defense (MoD) and several prominent milbloggers, claimed that Ukrainian forces launched an intense frontal assault towards Robotyne (10km south of Orikhiv) and broke through Russian defensive positions northeast of the settlement.[1] Geolocated footage indicates that Ukrainian forces likely advanced to within 2.5km directly east of Robotyne during the attack before Russian forces employed standard doctrinal elastic defense tactics and pushed Ukrainian troops back somewhat, although not all the way back to their starting positions.[2]
Russian sources provided a wide range of diverging claims as to the scale of both the attack and resulting Ukrainian losses, indicating that the actual results and Ukrainian losses remain unclear. The Russian MoD claimed that up to three battalions engaged in a "massive assault" near Orikhiv, but ISW has not yet observed visual evidence to suggest that such a large number of personnel (a full brigade) were involved in the attack.[3] One prominent Russian milblogger claimed that Ukrainian forces used over 80 armored vehicles, and other milbloggers more conservatively claimed that the number was closer to between 30 and 40.[4] Various Russian milbloggers additionally made disparate claims about how many armored vehicles Russian forces destroyed.[5] ISW has also not yet observed a large number of heat anomalies from NASA's FIRMS / VIIRs sensors in this area of the frontline of the sort that have historically accompanied large, mechanized pushes.[6] The disagreement amongst several prominent Russian sources, who have generally tended to offer more mutually consistent claims about the size of and losses resulting from previous Ukrainian attacks, indicates that the situation remains less than clear and that Ukrainian forces may have been more successful than assessed by Russian commentators.
The battlefield geometry around Robotyne, as well as the force composition of the Russian elements defending there, offer important color to speculation surrounding the Ukrainian attack and gains. Geolocated footage from July 27 shows two Ukrainian Bradley infantry fighting vehicles and a T-72 tank either disabled or abandoned about 2.5km due east of Robotyne, which is a point that is about 2.5km south of the current frontline.[7] This geolocated point is beyond the forward-most pre-prepared Russian defensive fortifications in this area, indicating that Ukrainian forces managed to penetrate and drive through tactically challenging defensive positions. This kind of penetration battle will be one of the most difficult things for Ukrainian forces to accomplish in pursuit of deeper penetrations, as ISW has previously assessed. The defensive lines that run further south of Robotyne are likely less well-manned than these forward-most positions, considering that Russian forces have likely had to commit a significant portion of available forces to man the first line of defensive positions that are north and east of Robotyne.
https://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/russian-offensive-campaign-assessment-july-26-2023
In other words, Uke has penetrated the strongest point on the Russian line, at an apparent cost of a handful of tanks & armored vehicles, requiring a full-scale Russian counter-attack.
This comes after 7 weeks of constant probing and fixing attacks, each of which sparked immediate Russian counterattacks (pulling Russian troops out of defensive fortifications....). During this time, Russian forces have received no reinforcements, no rotations, and their ammunition supply lines have been constantly interdicted, severely restricting available food, water, ammo, meds, etc..... By contrast, the Ukes are receiving uninterrupted supplies, regular rotations and reinforcements, and have nearly western standards of field hospitals and medical evacuations.
You should pause at this point and consider how much longer the Russian lines can hold before they break. The commitment of the Uke heavy brigades means the Ukes assess the breaking point is near.
Russia mobilizes
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Thanks.Sam Lowry said:They can see a breaking point, but not for Russia. That why they've reverted to their old tactics. It's now or never.FLBear5630 said:You act like this is a bad thing? Last Ukrainian? Everything written points to a Ukrainian breakthrough.Sam Lowry said:You're right about one thing--the Ukes know a breaking point is near. You wanted to see us fight to the last Ukrainian. Looks like you won't have to wait much longer.whiterock said:See Bear 8084's post. ISW is unable to visually confirm significant advances. As I noted, the advances claimed are not significant and Uke withdrawals to more easily defendable terrain are not necessarily a net-gain for Russia......Sam Lowry said:It's not yet clear that Ukraine controls Klishschiivka or Andriivka. They still have Yahidne and Opytne to deal with before surrounding Bakhmut. Ignoring it would be the smartest thing they've done in a long time, but the rhetoric from Kiev suggests they're about to repeat their mistake. Ukraine's best tank brigades (33rd and 47th) were slaughtered at Robotyne in the early days of the offensive. They adopted the attrition strategy out of necessity. They're now attacking that area with large numbers of tanks and again taking heavy losses. All of which suits the Russians just fine.whiterock said:The rate of advance has accelerate from meters per day, to a kilometer or two. That works out to 10-25km total for the past six weeks. It is tactically significant, as the advances around Donetsk and Bakhmut indeed are. It is not, however, anywhere near Russia.Sam Lowry said:You've been saying this for a couple of months. If the Ukrainians were advancing kilometers per day, they'd be in Russia by now.whiterock said:
Pravda today is confirming that Ukraine has now captured Avdiivka, on the northern outskirts of Donetsk City. It is of course symbolically significant that Ukrainian troops are on the outskirts of the capitol city of Donetsk province. But there is a far more important factor at play. Check the map.
The black lines are railways. When Ukraine seizes that rail yard in downtown Donetsk, or encircles and besieges Donetsk, all Russian units west of Donetsk are severed from rail communication directly to Russia. All supply shipments from Russia to units on the Kherson and Zapo fronts will have to be trucked over a single highway from Rostov to Melitopol, or on rail/truck lines via Crimea (which of course must traverse the Kerch Bridge AND the two Svash chokepoints, one of which was reduced to pontoon bridge a couple of weeks ago.
when Donetsk falls, Crimea is effectively under siege. Russia will, at some point, be forced by supply issue to withdraw their western armies to the Crimea.
None of that is imminent. But such things are subject to the "slowly, then suddenly" model of failure. Russia is losing ground by the kilometer every day. No single kilometer is terribly important. Until one is. Those rail yards in Donetsk are terribly important.
Ukraine COULD advance down from Donetsk and cross into Russian territory to cut the highway between Rostov and Melitopol. They have are no reserves to stop it, other than the grandpas and schoolboys that typically make up territorial guards units. Interestingly, there is an unverified report out today that Russia has rigged the bridges in/out of Melitopol with explosives. If true, that would suggest that Russia is starting to make contingency plans for the collapse of the center of their line in Donetsk, which happens to be a primary area of Ukrainian gains.
Imagine the spectacle of 200k troops or so on the Zapo front being supplied primarily across a pontoon bridge across the Svash, and there is no maintenance yard to supply broken down trucks with new batteries or tires because Ukraine blew it all up yesterday.
And the Uke heavy brigades have still not been engaged.......
More important is, it is amply clear from reports that the Ukes are doing exactly what I described several weeks ago - making cautious tactical movements to seize positions, then settling in and awaiting the inevitable human wave counter-attacks. Russians are obliging. The primary strategic objective of Uke attacks appear, however, not to be making the "big breakthrough" but rather attriting Russian artillery, which is being decimated. Russian communication and fire control procedures remain antiquated. They are emplaced and organized to do preparatory fires in support of Russian attacks, not respond to random fire missions, and of course the fuel and fleet to move tubes are in short supply.
Bakhmut has already been effectively encircled. Uke artillery already covers all lines of Russian communication. Klishchiivka is high ground which affords visual observation of all of those lines, so now any vehicle which attempts to enter/leave Bakhmut will be destroyed. I doubt Uke will make a serious attempt to take Bakhmut. They'll bypass it and let the Russians either surrender, or exhaust themselves in breakout attacks.
Same cannot be said for Donetsk. Uke will need it for symbolism, and for the rail yards.
If you want to see accelerated progress, keep your eye on the northeast. There's no mention of it in Western media, but the Russians are advancing at a half dozen or so points and have crossed the Zherebets River into Nadia and Serhiivka in the last couple of days. From there it's a straight shot to Borova and the chance to sever the Ukrainian line east of the Oskil.
as for your sources on the Uke offensive.... Here's what ISW has been able to confirm, usually with imagery.
Ukrainian forces launched a significant mechanized counteroffensive operation in western Zaporizhia Oblast on July 26 and appear to have broken through certain pre-prepared Russian defensive positions south of Orikhiv. Russian sources, including the Russian Ministry of Defense (MoD) and several prominent milbloggers, claimed that Ukrainian forces launched an intense frontal assault towards Robotyne (10km south of Orikhiv) and broke through Russian defensive positions northeast of the settlement.[1] Geolocated footage indicates that Ukrainian forces likely advanced to within 2.5km directly east of Robotyne during the attack before Russian forces employed standard doctrinal elastic defense tactics and pushed Ukrainian troops back somewhat, although not all the way back to their starting positions.[2]
Russian sources provided a wide range of diverging claims as to the scale of both the attack and resulting Ukrainian losses, indicating that the actual results and Ukrainian losses remain unclear. The Russian MoD claimed that up to three battalions engaged in a "massive assault" near Orikhiv, but ISW has not yet observed visual evidence to suggest that such a large number of personnel (a full brigade) were involved in the attack.[3] One prominent Russian milblogger claimed that Ukrainian forces used over 80 armored vehicles, and other milbloggers more conservatively claimed that the number was closer to between 30 and 40.[4] Various Russian milbloggers additionally made disparate claims about how many armored vehicles Russian forces destroyed.[5] ISW has also not yet observed a large number of heat anomalies from NASA's FIRMS / VIIRs sensors in this area of the frontline of the sort that have historically accompanied large, mechanized pushes.[6] The disagreement amongst several prominent Russian sources, who have generally tended to offer more mutually consistent claims about the size of and losses resulting from previous Ukrainian attacks, indicates that the situation remains less than clear and that Ukrainian forces may have been more successful than assessed by Russian commentators.
The battlefield geometry around Robotyne, as well as the force composition of the Russian elements defending there, offer important color to speculation surrounding the Ukrainian attack and gains. Geolocated footage from July 27 shows two Ukrainian Bradley infantry fighting vehicles and a T-72 tank either disabled or abandoned about 2.5km due east of Robotyne, which is a point that is about 2.5km south of the current frontline.[7] This geolocated point is beyond the forward-most pre-prepared Russian defensive fortifications in this area, indicating that Ukrainian forces managed to penetrate and drive through tactically challenging defensive positions. This kind of penetration battle will be one of the most difficult things for Ukrainian forces to accomplish in pursuit of deeper penetrations, as ISW has previously assessed. The defensive lines that run further south of Robotyne are likely less well-manned than these forward-most positions, considering that Russian forces have likely had to commit a significant portion of available forces to man the first line of defensive positions that are north and east of Robotyne.
https://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/russian-offensive-campaign-assessment-july-26-2023
In other words, Uke has penetrated the strongest point on the Russian line, at an apparent cost of a handful of tanks & armored vehicles, requiring a full-scale Russian counter-attack.
This comes after 7 weeks of constant probing and fixing attacks, each of which sparked immediate Russian counterattacks (pulling Russian troops out of defensive fortifications....). During this time, Russian forces have received no reinforcements, no rotations, and their ammunition supply lines have been constantly interdicted, severely restricting available food, water, ammo, meds, etc..... By contrast, the Ukes are receiving uninterrupted supplies, regular rotations and reinforcements, and have nearly western standards of field hospitals and medical evacuations.
You should pause at this point and consider how much longer the Russian lines can hold before they break. The commitment of the Uke heavy brigades means the Ukes assess the breaking point is near.
The fresh Uke units appear to be the most experienced.
Also appears like the probing and fixing attacks with smaller units were indeed intended to provoke Russian counter-attacksdrawing them out of fortified positions and into open terrain covered by Uke arty. That inverted the kill ratios, inflicting worse casualties on the nominal defender (by forcing them to become the attacker). Also simply wore down the whole Russian machine.
I have not seen ISW comment on the chatter from retired DOD types about the "genocide" inflicted on the Russian arty corps by Uke counter battery fire. If true, Russia has lost a critical advantage that will limit their ability to interdict any breakouts.
Also appears like the probing and fixing attacks with smaller units were indeed intended to provoke Russian counter-attacksdrawing them out of fortified positions and into open terrain covered by Uke arty. That inverted the kill ratios, inflicting worse casualties on the nominal defender (by forcing them to become the attacker). Also simply wore down the whole Russian machine.
I have not seen ISW comment on the chatter from retired DOD types about the "genocide" inflicted on the Russian arty corps by Uke counter battery fire. If true, Russia has lost a critical advantage that will limit their ability to interdict any breakouts.
#Ukraine appears to have rotated fresh forces into this area for the operation whereas Russian forces remain pinned to the line apparently without rotation, relief, or significant reinforcement in this sector.https://t.co/LBQc1biLAz https://t.co/RfLpkSHLYz
— ISW (@TheStudyofWar) July 27, 2023
Robotyne is Ukraine's main point of attack in Zaporizhzhia, where they've been hoping to push south and sever the route to Crimea.
Quote:
Multiple sources reported renewed attacks by the Armed Forces of Ukraine (AFU) in two separate sectors, one in Ukraine's Donetsk region, south of Velyka Novosilka, near Staromaiorske; and one in Ukraine's Zaporizhzhia region, south of Orikhiv, near Robotyne.
Russian official and unofficial sources claimed they defeated AFU forces with heavy losses near Robotyne. Ukrainian official and unofficial sources said little about the Robotyne battle, but both sides reported AFU progress around Staromaiorske.
AFU units kicked off attacks in both sectors in early June and have made slow progress since then in continuing, small-scale assaults day after day, typically with 2 to 6 armored vehicles and 10 to 20 soldiers tasked to capture a section of wood line or a series of Russian fortifications.
Russia-affiliated information platforms claimed Kremlin forces around Robotyne on Wednesday demolished a tank-infantry attack dramatically larger than anything attempted by Kyiv in weeks anywhere on the front. The pro-Russia blogger Vladimir Rogov in a Thursday morning report said the AFU "threw into battle at least two assault detachments from the 116 and 118 (Mechanized Brigades), reinforced by 47 (Mechanized Brigade)… and two tank companies… were involved."
Both the 116th and 118th are, according to open source reports, AFU reserve formations previously untested in combat. There was no outside confirmation of the Russian claim, effectively, that AFU high command had just thrown two more of its precious, NATO-equipped reserve brigades into the fighting.
Other Russian media platforms, including state media, reported a Ukrainian assault in the Robotyne sector of substantially larger scale than in recent weeks. Estimates of total numbers of Ukrainian vehicles participating in the attacks ranged from 80 to 100 armored vehicles of all types.
All claimed Russian victory, with Rogov reporting that Russian defenses destroyed 21 tanks along with 14 armored infantry carriers and killed or wounded 220 AFU soldiers. Fighting was continuing on Thursday, the pro-Russia information platform Rybar-Z said.
Independent platforms on Thursday published drone and ground video geolinked to the Robotyne sector showing Ukrainian infantry fighting vehicles and tanks apparently damaged or destroyed in recent fighting. Independent estimates of Ukrainian losses, based on those images, placed Ukrainian losses at two Leopard tanks, 6 T-64 tanks, four T-72 tanks, three Bradley infantry fighting vehicles, four M-113 armored personnel carriers, and six BMP infantry fighting vehicles.
Ground video showed advancing AFU units passing stationary vehicles, some with limited damage. Russian drone video showed a Ukrainian M-113 exploding and burning. It was not clear how many knocked-out fighting vehicles might be recovered and repaired by the AFU.
The Ukrainian military was tight-lipped about battles in the Robotyne-Orikhiv sector. In its daily situation report published Thursday morning no mention was made of Russian reports of heavy AFU losses in the area. It merely stated that fighting was in progress.
https://www.kyivpost.com/post/19904
I love how "all claimed Russian victory" with the caveat that "ground video showed advancing AFU units passing stationary vehicles, some with limited damage".Sam Lowry said:
Robotyne is Ukraine's main point of attack in Zaporizhzhia, where they've been hoping to push south and sever the route to Crimea.Quote:
Multiple sources reported renewed attacks by the Armed Forces of Ukraine (AFU) in two separate sectors, one in Ukraine's Donetsk region, south of Velyka Novosilka, near Staromaiorske; and one in Ukraine's Zaporizhzhia region, south of Orikhiv, near Robotyne.
Russian official and unofficial sources claimed they defeated AFU forces with heavy losses near Robotyne. Ukrainian official and unofficial sources said little about the Robotyne battle, but both sides reported AFU progress around Staromaiorske.
AFU units kicked off attacks in both sectors in early June and have made slow progress since then in continuing, small-scale assaults day after day, typically with 2 to 6 armored vehicles and 10 to 20 soldiers tasked to capture a section of wood line or a series of Russian fortifications.
Russia-affiliated information platforms claimed Kremlin forces around Robotyne on Wednesday demolished a tank-infantry attack dramatically larger than anything attempted by Kyiv in weeks anywhere on the front. The pro-Russia blogger Vladimir Rogov in a Thursday morning report said the AFU "threw into battle at least two assault detachments from the 116 and 118 (Mechanized Brigades), reinforced by 47 (Mechanized Brigade)… and two tank companies… were involved."
Both the 116th and 118th are, according to open source reports, AFU reserve formations previously untested in combat. There was no outside confirmation of the Russian claim, effectively, that AFU high command had just thrown two more of its precious, NATO-equipped reserve brigades into the fighting.
Other Russian media platforms, including state media, reported a Ukrainian assault in the Robotyne sector of substantially larger scale than in recent weeks. Estimates of total numbers of Ukrainian vehicles participating in the attacks ranged from 80 to 100 armored vehicles of all types.
All claimed Russian victory, with Rogov reporting that Russian defenses destroyed 21 tanks along with 14 armored infantry carriers and killed or wounded 220 AFU soldiers. Fighting was continuing on Thursday, the pro-Russia information platform Rybar-Z said.
Independent platforms on Thursday published drone and ground video geolinked to the Robotyne sector showing Ukrainian infantry fighting vehicles and tanks apparently damaged or destroyed in recent fighting. Independent estimates of Ukrainian losses, based on those images, placed Ukrainian losses at two Leopard tanks, 6 T-64 tanks, four T-72 tanks, three Bradley infantry fighting vehicles, four M-113 armored personnel carriers, and six BMP infantry fighting vehicles.
Ground video showed advancing AFU units passing stationary vehicles, some with limited damage. Russian drone video showed a Ukrainian M-113 exploding and burning. It was not clear how many knocked-out fighting vehicles might be recovered and repaired by the AFU.
The Ukrainian military was tight-lipped about battles in the Robotyne-Orikhiv sector. In its daily situation report published Thursday morning no mention was made of Russian reports of heavy AFU losses in the area. It merely stated that fighting was in progress.
https://www.kyivpost.com/post/19904
Means that even though vehicles were damaged, the AFU was still advancing.
Mr. Treehorn treats objects like women, man.
If Ukraine is 'winning' how is it Russian troops still occupy wide areas of eastern Ukraine and Russian missiles attack Ukrainian civilian targets with impunity?
KaiBear said:
If Ukraine is 'winning' how is it Russian troops still occupy wide areas of eastern Ukraine and Russian missiles attack Ukrainian civilian targets with impunity?
Well, Russia has largely occupied those lands with special forces and $$ for more than a decade, and Russia is a piece of shlt country that intentionally destroys civilian targets with no care because all they know is strong arm/fear tactics. They are a nation of suffering that knows nothing more than to try to make others suffer if they can't have their way. Ukraine has suffered from it, but it's only hardened their resolve.
Mr. Treehorn treats objects like women, man.
trey3216 said:KaiBear said:
If Ukraine is 'winning' how is it Russian troops still occupy wide areas of eastern Ukraine and Russian missiles attack Ukrainian civilian targets with impunity?
Well, Russia has largely occupied those lands with special forces and $$ for more than a decade, and Russia is a piece of shlt country that intentionally destroys civilian targets with no care because all they know is strong arm/fear tactics. They are a nation of suffering that knows nothing more than to try to make others suffer if they can't have their way. Ukraine has suffered from it, but it's only hardened their resolve.
If Ukraine was 'winning' they would have pushed Russian forces out of eastern Ukraine by now .
If Ukraine was 'winning' Russian missiles would not be raining down on Ukrainian civilians and infrastructure on a daily basis .
KaiBear said:trey3216 said:KaiBear said:
If Ukraine is 'winning' how is it Russian troops still occupy wide areas of eastern Ukraine and Russian missiles attack Ukrainian civilian targets with impunity?
Well, Russia has largely occupied those lands with special forces and $$ for more than a decade, and Russia is a piece of shlt country that intentionally destroys civilian targets with no care because all they know is strong arm/fear tactics. They are a nation of suffering that knows nothing more than to try to make others suffer if they can't have their way. Ukraine has suffered from it, but it's only hardened their resolve.
If Ukraine was 'winning' they would have pushed Russian forces out of eastern Ukraine by now .
If Ukraine was 'winning' Russian missiles would not be raining down on Ukrainian civilians and infrastructure on a daily basis .
If Russia was "winning" they wouldn't have lost 3-5x what Ukraine has lost in this "special operation" and they wouldn't have nearly had a coup, and they wouldn't be resorting to launching missiles at civilians without remorse. They have no momentum, have exhausted much of their "hinterland" troops and are about to have to start scooping up Moscow/St Pete kids for the meat grinder, and don't have the capability to produce enough weaponry to keep up going forward. They are a pariah nation that has literally chosen to risk their entire standing in the world for the Imperial whims of yesteryear of a diminutive tyrant. Well done VVP.
Mr. Treehorn treats objects like women, man.
trey3216 said:KaiBear said:trey3216 said:KaiBear said:
If Ukraine is 'winning' how is it Russian troops still occupy wide areas of eastern Ukraine and Russian missiles attack Ukrainian civilian targets with impunity?
Well, Russia has largely occupied those lands with special forces and $$ for more than a decade, and Russia is a piece of shlt country that intentionally destroys civilian targets with no care because all they know is strong arm/fear tactics. They are a nation of suffering that knows nothing more than to try to make others suffer if they can't have their way. Ukraine has suffered from it, but it's only hardened their resolve.
If Ukraine was 'winning' they would have pushed Russian forces out of eastern Ukraine by now .
If Ukraine was 'winning' Russian missiles would not be raining down on Ukrainian civilians and infrastructure on a daily basis .
If Russia was "winning" they wouldn't have lost 3-5x what Ukraine has lost in this "special operation" and they wouldn't have nearly had a coup, and they wouldn't be resorting to launching missiles at civilians without remorse. They have no momentum, have exhausted much of their "hinterland" troops and are about to have to start scooping up Moscow/St Pete kids for the meat grinder, and don't have the capability to produce enough weaponry to keep up going forward. They are a pariah nation that has literally chosen to risk their entire standing in the world for the Imperial whims of yesteryear of a diminutive tyrant. Well done VVP.
None of this subjective narrative explains how a country getting hammered by missiles everyday is 'winning' a war when millions of its citizens have found it necessary to flee into neighboring countries .
Ukraine simply cannot continue to exist with its infrastructure indefinitely pounded from the air .
Simply can't continue to have millions of its citizens fleeing abroad.
Russia can play this game for years , Ukraine can't .
You are dated or incorrect on every point.KaiBear said:trey3216 said:KaiBear said:trey3216 said:KaiBear said:
If Ukraine is 'winning' how is it Russian troops still occupy wide areas of eastern Ukraine and Russian missiles attack Ukrainian civilian targets with impunity?
Well, Russia has largely occupied those lands with special forces and $$ for more than a decade, and Russia is a piece of shlt country that intentionally destroys civilian targets with no care because all they know is strong arm/fear tactics. They are a nation of suffering that knows nothing more than to try to make others suffer if they can't have their way. Ukraine has suffered from it, but it's only hardened their resolve.
If Ukraine was 'winning' they would have pushed Russian forces out of eastern Ukraine by now .
If Ukraine was 'winning' Russian missiles would not be raining down on Ukrainian civilians and infrastructure on a daily basis .
If Russia was "winning" they wouldn't have lost 3-5x what Ukraine has lost in this "special operation" and they wouldn't have nearly had a coup, and they wouldn't be resorting to launching missiles at civilians without remorse. They have no momentum, have exhausted much of their "hinterland" troops and are about to have to start scooping up Moscow/St Pete kids for the meat grinder, and don't have the capability to produce enough weaponry to keep up going forward. They are a pariah nation that has literally chosen to risk their entire standing in the world for the Imperial whims of yesteryear of a diminutive tyrant. Well done VVP.
None of this subjective narrative explains how a country getting hammered by missiles everyday is 'winning' a war when millions of its citizens have found it necessary to flee into neighboring countries .
Ukraine simply cannot continue to exist with its infrastructure indefinitely pounded from the air .
Simply can't continue to have millions of its citizens fleeing abroad.
Russia can play this game for years , Ukraine can't .
Disagree that Russia can play this game for years. Ukraine is not happening in a vacuum. Since this has begun:KaiBear said:trey3216 said:KaiBear said:trey3216 said:KaiBear said:
If Ukraine is 'winning' how is it Russian troops still occupy wide areas of eastern Ukraine and Russian missiles attack Ukrainian civilian targets with impunity?
Well, Russia has largely occupied those lands with special forces and $$ for more than a decade, and Russia is a piece of shlt country that intentionally destroys civilian targets with no care because all they know is strong arm/fear tactics. They are a nation of suffering that knows nothing more than to try to make others suffer if they can't have their way. Ukraine has suffered from it, but it's only hardened their resolve.
If Ukraine was 'winning' they would have pushed Russian forces out of eastern Ukraine by now .
If Ukraine was 'winning' Russian missiles would not be raining down on Ukrainian civilians and infrastructure on a daily basis .
If Russia was "winning" they wouldn't have lost 3-5x what Ukraine has lost in this "special operation" and they wouldn't have nearly had a coup, and they wouldn't be resorting to launching missiles at civilians without remorse. They have no momentum, have exhausted much of their "hinterland" troops and are about to have to start scooping up Moscow/St Pete kids for the meat grinder, and don't have the capability to produce enough weaponry to keep up going forward. They are a pariah nation that has literally chosen to risk their entire standing in the world for the Imperial whims of yesteryear of a diminutive tyrant. Well done VVP.
None of this subjective narrative explains how a country getting hammered by missiles everyday is 'winning' a war when millions of its citizens have found it necessary to flee into neighboring countries .
Ukraine simply cannot continue to exist with its infrastructure indefinitely pounded from the air .
Simply can't continue to have millions of its citizens fleeing abroad.
Russia can play this game for years , Ukraine can't .
- Russia has lost the pipeline, sales to Europe down 90%
- Been forced to subjugate itself to China,
- Fought off a Coup,
- Economy is in a shambles
- Finland & Sweden has joined NATO, expanding NATO's profile
- Switzerland, Finland && Sweded are joining the National Guard program
No, Russia needs to end this quickly, which is why you are now seeing more missles, Black Sea operations and more of their better commanders. Russia as an independent State is in peril.
Ukraine may be getting pummeled, but they have an avenue out after this is over. Ukraine will be in NATO. Ukraine will join the EU. Even if they lose territory, they will come out better.
Russia will be China's ***** with only Iran and N Korea as allies.
Do you really not understand the difference between "winning" and "won?"KaiBear said:trey3216 said:KaiBear said:
If Ukraine is 'winning' how is it Russian troops still occupy wide areas of eastern Ukraine and Russian missiles attack Ukrainian civilian targets with impunity?
Well, Russia has largely occupied those lands with special forces and $$ for more than a decade, and Russia is a piece of shlt country that intentionally destroys civilian targets with no care because all they know is strong arm/fear tactics. They are a nation of suffering that knows nothing more than to try to make others suffer if they can't have their way. Ukraine has suffered from it, but it's only hardened their resolve.
If Ukraine was 'winning' they would have pushed Russian forces out of eastern Ukraine by now .
If Ukraine was 'winning' Russian missiles would not be raining down on Ukrainian civilians and infrastructure on a daily basis .
KaiBear said:trey3216 said:KaiBear said:trey3216 said:KaiBear said:
If Ukraine is 'winning' how is it Russian troops still occupy wide areas of eastern Ukraine and Russian missiles attack Ukrainian civilian targets with impunity?
Well, Russia has largely occupied those lands with special forces and $$ for more than a decade, and Russia is a piece of shlt country that intentionally destroys civilian targets with no care because all they know is strong arm/fear tactics. They are a nation of suffering that knows nothing more than to try to make others suffer if they can't have their way. Ukraine has suffered from it, but it's only hardened their resolve.
If Ukraine was 'winning' they would have pushed Russian forces out of eastern Ukraine by now .
If Ukraine was 'winning' Russian missiles would not be raining down on Ukrainian civilians and infrastructure on a daily basis .
If Russia was "winning" they wouldn't have lost 3-5x what Ukraine has lost in this "special operation" and they wouldn't have nearly had a coup, and they wouldn't be resorting to launching missiles at civilians without remorse. They have no momentum, have exhausted much of their "hinterland" troops and are about to have to start scooping up Moscow/St Pete kids for the meat grinder, and don't have the capability to produce enough weaponry to keep up going forward. They are a pariah nation that has literally chosen to risk their entire standing in the world for the Imperial whims of yesteryear of a diminutive tyrant. Well done VVP.
None of this subjective narrative explains how a country getting hammered by missiles everyday is 'winning' a war when millions of its citizens have found it necessary to flee into neighboring countries .
Ukraine simply cannot continue to exist with its infrastructure indefinitely pounded from the air .
Simply can't continue to have millions of its citizens fleeing abroad.
Russia can play this game for years , Ukraine can't .
Israel gets hit by Rockets all the time…
Mr. Treehorn treats objects like women, man.
trey3216 said:KaiBear said:trey3216 said:KaiBear said:trey3216 said:KaiBear said:
If Ukraine is 'winning' how is it Russian troops still occupy wide areas of eastern Ukraine and Russian missiles attack Ukrainian civilian targets with impunity?
Well, Russia has largely occupied those lands with special forces and $$ for more than a decade, and Russia is a piece of shlt country that intentionally destroys civilian targets with no care because all they know is strong arm/fear tactics. They are a nation of suffering that knows nothing more than to try to make others suffer if they can't have their way. Ukraine has suffered from it, but it's only hardened their resolve.
If Ukraine was 'winning' they would have pushed Russian forces out of eastern Ukraine by now .
If Ukraine was 'winning' Russian missiles would not be raining down on Ukrainian civilians and infrastructure on a daily basis .
If Russia was "winning" they wouldn't have lost 3-5x what Ukraine has lost in this "special operation" and they wouldn't have nearly had a coup, and they wouldn't be resorting to launching missiles at civilians without remorse. They have no momentum, have exhausted much of their "hinterland" troops and are about to have to start scooping up Moscow/St Pete kids for the meat grinder, and don't have the capability to produce enough weaponry to keep up going forward. They are a pariah nation that has literally chosen to risk their entire standing in the world for the Imperial whims of yesteryear of a diminutive tyrant. Well done VVP.
None of this subjective narrative explains how a country getting hammered by missiles everyday is 'winning' a war when millions of its citizens have found it necessary to flee into neighboring countries .
Ukraine simply cannot continue to exist with its infrastructure indefinitely pounded from the air .
Simply can't continue to have millions of its citizens fleeing abroad.
Russia can play this game for years , Ukraine can't .
Israel gets hit by Rockets all the time…
Not sure comparing the little damage done to Israel vs the large damage done to Ukraine infrastructure is a good comparison.
Lets also not forget that Israel has a USA made Iron Dome system at takes down almost all those rockets.
Israel's 1st world military then rains hell down on the militants in Palestine....most armed with just mortars, some short range & home made rockets, and AK-47 riffles...oh and on any civilians that are to close.
"The Iron Dome missile defense system has achieved a 97 percent success rate intercepting incoming rockets"
https://www.timesofisrael.com/580-rockets-fired-from-gaza-since-friday-iron-dome-at-97-success-rate/
The Qassam rockets they fire are also relatively small dumb bombs at that....and in 2017 there were less than 38 rocket attacks...none left any fatalities in Israel.
"This is a detailed list of Palestinian rocket and mortar attacks on Israel in 2017. The Israeli military reported that 35 rockets and mortars were launched from the Gaza Strip in 2017, the vast majority of them in December"
The Massive Goliath style Israeli military vs the tiny David style Palestinian insurgency is not really comparable.
*Palestinian boy carries fired Qassam rocket
Absurd response.trey3216 said:KaiBear said:trey3216 said:KaiBear said:trey3216 said:KaiBear said:
If Ukraine is 'winning' how is it Russian troops still occupy wide areas of eastern Ukraine and Russian missiles attack Ukrainian civilian targets with impunity?
Well, Russia has largely occupied those lands with special forces and $$ for more than a decade, and Russia is a piece of shlt country that intentionally destroys civilian targets with no care because all they know is strong arm/fear tactics. They are a nation of suffering that knows nothing more than to try to make others suffer if they can't have their way. Ukraine has suffered from it, but it's only hardened their resolve.
If Ukraine was 'winning' they would have pushed Russian forces out of eastern Ukraine by now .
If Ukraine was 'winning' Russian missiles would not be raining down on Ukrainian civilians and infrastructure on a daily basis .
If Russia was "winning" they wouldn't have lost 3-5x what Ukraine has lost in this "special operation" and they wouldn't have nearly had a coup, and they wouldn't be resorting to launching missiles at civilians without remorse. They have no momentum, have exhausted much of their "hinterland" troops and are about to have to start scooping up Moscow/St Pete kids for the meat grinder, and don't have the capability to produce enough weaponry to keep up going forward. They are a pariah nation that has literally chosen to risk their entire standing in the world for the Imperial whims of yesteryear of a diminutive tyrant. Well done VVP.
None of this subjective narrative explains how a country getting hammered by missiles everyday is 'winning' a war when millions of its citizens have found it necessary to flee into neighboring countries .
Ukraine simply cannot continue to exist with its infrastructure indefinitely pounded from the air .
Simply can't continue to have millions of its citizens fleeing abroad.
Russia can play this game for years , Ukraine can't .
Israel gets hit by Rockets all the time…
About .1% as absurd as your claiming "the wrong side won the American Revolution" and "the Revolution needed to happen 100 years later". You're a pathetic thinker, and a sad American, if you are one.KaiBear said:Absurd response.trey3216 said:KaiBear said:trey3216 said:KaiBear said:trey3216 said:KaiBear said:
If Ukraine is 'winning' how is it Russian troops still occupy wide areas of eastern Ukraine and Russian missiles attack Ukrainian civilian targets with impunity?
Well, Russia has largely occupied those lands with special forces and $$ for more than a decade, and Russia is a piece of shlt country that intentionally destroys civilian targets with no care because all they know is strong arm/fear tactics. They are a nation of suffering that knows nothing more than to try to make others suffer if they can't have their way. Ukraine has suffered from it, but it's only hardened their resolve.
If Ukraine was 'winning' they would have pushed Russian forces out of eastern Ukraine by now .
If Ukraine was 'winning' Russian missiles would not be raining down on Ukrainian civilians and infrastructure on a daily basis .
If Russia was "winning" they wouldn't have lost 3-5x what Ukraine has lost in this "special operation" and they wouldn't have nearly had a coup, and they wouldn't be resorting to launching missiles at civilians without remorse. They have no momentum, have exhausted much of their "hinterland" troops and are about to have to start scooping up Moscow/St Pete kids for the meat grinder, and don't have the capability to produce enough weaponry to keep up going forward. They are a pariah nation that has literally chosen to risk their entire standing in the world for the Imperial whims of yesteryear of a diminutive tyrant. Well done VVP.
None of this subjective narrative explains how a country getting hammered by missiles everyday is 'winning' a war when millions of its citizens have found it necessary to flee into neighboring countries .
Ukraine simply cannot continue to exist with its infrastructure indefinitely pounded from the air .
Simply can't continue to have millions of its citizens fleeing abroad.
Russia can play this game for years , Ukraine can't .
Israel gets hit by Rockets all the time…
Mr. Treehorn treats objects like women, man.
Almost 600,00 Americans died in the Civil War . Hundreds of thousands more were permanently disabled.trey3216 said:About .1% as absurd as your claiming "the wrong side won the American Revolution" and "the Revolution needed to happen 100 years later". You're a pathetic thinker, and a sad American, if you are one.KaiBear said:Absurd response.trey3216 said:KaiBear said:trey3216 said:KaiBear said:trey3216 said:KaiBear said:
If Ukraine is 'winning' how is it Russian troops still occupy wide areas of eastern Ukraine and Russian missiles attack Ukrainian civilian targets with impunity?
Well, Russia has largely occupied those lands with special forces and $$ for more than a decade, and Russia is a piece of shlt country that intentionally destroys civilian targets with no care because all they know is strong arm/fear tactics. They are a nation of suffering that knows nothing more than to try to make others suffer if they can't have their way. Ukraine has suffered from it, but it's only hardened their resolve.
If Ukraine was 'winning' they would have pushed Russian forces out of eastern Ukraine by now .
If Ukraine was 'winning' Russian missiles would not be raining down on Ukrainian civilians and infrastructure on a daily basis .
If Russia was "winning" they wouldn't have lost 3-5x what Ukraine has lost in this "special operation" and they wouldn't have nearly had a coup, and they wouldn't be resorting to launching missiles at civilians without remorse. They have no momentum, have exhausted much of their "hinterland" troops and are about to have to start scooping up Moscow/St Pete kids for the meat grinder, and don't have the capability to produce enough weaponry to keep up going forward. They are a pariah nation that has literally chosen to risk their entire standing in the world for the Imperial whims of yesteryear of a diminutive tyrant. Well done VVP.
None of this subjective narrative explains how a country getting hammered by missiles everyday is 'winning' a war when millions of its citizens have found it necessary to flee into neighboring countries .
Ukraine simply cannot continue to exist with its infrastructure indefinitely pounded from the air .
Simply can't continue to have millions of its citizens fleeing abroad.
Russia can play this game for years , Ukraine can't .
Israel gets hit by Rockets all the time…
Out of a total population of less than 32 million. Do the bloody math kiddo.
In addition the south was economically annihilated. Took almost a century for the region to recover.
All over the issue of slavery and the economic value they respresented .
Anything else put forward as a 'reason' for the war is mere window dressing .
The British Empire abolished slavery long before 1860.
With COMPENSATION for all the slave owners.
Under another century of British guidance the civil war is avoided.
The Spanish American War is avoided.
We don't invade the Philippines, Puerto Rico, a host of central American countries.
The tragic slaughter of Native Americans and American settlers is greatly reduced.
Howver extremely limited individuals like your self have no capacity to think outside the box.
Which is way you don't have the best of lifestyles.
Kaibear, you had a good, solid post going. Then you posted this at the end:
"Howver extremely limitted individuals like your self have no capacity to think outside the box.
Which is way you don't have the best of lifestyles."
Aside from the spelling mistakes, you forgot that we are talking about alternative history. If the Brits had won the American Revolutionary War, the extant conditions in Europe alter as do causalities.
That is, your stated set of conditions assume nothing would have changed in baseline events, which almost certainly would not be true, especially as time projections extend.
Ergo, you show the very lack of imagination and reason that you claim is missing from your opponents.
And that last line is not only a cheap shot, but may well be wrong. Over my life, I have seen smart, hard-working people succeed, but also lazy morons who simply got lucky. And I have also known smart, hard-working people who just caught a lot of bad breaks.
Maybe next time step back and just post your opinion without trying to demean someone else.
"Howver extremely limitted individuals like your self have no capacity to think outside the box.
Which is way you don't have the best of lifestyles."
Aside from the spelling mistakes, you forgot that we are talking about alternative history. If the Brits had won the American Revolutionary War, the extant conditions in Europe alter as do causalities.
That is, your stated set of conditions assume nothing would have changed in baseline events, which almost certainly would not be true, especially as time projections extend.
Ergo, you show the very lack of imagination and reason that you claim is missing from your opponents.
And that last line is not only a cheap shot, but may well be wrong. Over my life, I have seen smart, hard-working people succeed, but also lazy morons who simply got lucky. And I have also known smart, hard-working people who just caught a lot of bad breaks.
Maybe next time step back and just post your opinion without trying to demean someone else.
That which does not kill me, will try again and get nastier
Extremely limited individuals, eh?KaiBear said:Almost 600,00 Americans died in the Civil War . Hundreds of thousands more were permanently disabled.trey3216 said:About .1% as absurd as your claiming "the wrong side won the American Revolution" and "the Revolution needed to happen 100 years later". You're a pathetic thinker, and a sad American, if you are one.KaiBear said:Absurd response.trey3216 said:KaiBear said:trey3216 said:KaiBear said:trey3216 said:KaiBear said:
If Ukraine is 'winning' how is it Russian troops still occupy wide areas of eastern Ukraine and Russian missiles attack Ukrainian civilian targets with impunity?
Well, Russia has largely occupied those lands with special forces and $$ for more than a decade, and Russia is a piece of shlt country that intentionally destroys civilian targets with no care because all they know is strong arm/fear tactics. They are a nation of suffering that knows nothing more than to try to make others suffer if they can't have their way. Ukraine has suffered from it, but it's only hardened their resolve.
If Ukraine was 'winning' they would have pushed Russian forces out of eastern Ukraine by now .
If Ukraine was 'winning' Russian missiles would not be raining down on Ukrainian civilians and infrastructure on a daily basis .
If Russia was "winning" they wouldn't have lost 3-5x what Ukraine has lost in this "special operation" and they wouldn't have nearly had a coup, and they wouldn't be resorting to launching missiles at civilians without remorse. They have no momentum, have exhausted much of their "hinterland" troops and are about to have to start scooping up Moscow/St Pete kids for the meat grinder, and don't have the capability to produce enough weaponry to keep up going forward. They are a pariah nation that has literally chosen to risk their entire standing in the world for the Imperial whims of yesteryear of a diminutive tyrant. Well done VVP.
None of this subjective narrative explains how a country getting hammered by missiles everyday is 'winning' a war when millions of its citizens have found it necessary to flee into neighboring countries .
Ukraine simply cannot continue to exist with its infrastructure indefinitely pounded from the air .
Simply can't continue to have millions of its citizens fleeing abroad.
Russia can play this game for years , Ukraine can't .
Israel gets hit by Rockets all the time…
Out of a total population of less than 32 million. Do the bloody math kiddo.
In addition the south was economically annihilated. Took almost a century for the region to recover.
All over the issue of slavery and the economic value they respresented .
Anything else put forward as a 'reason' for the war is mere window dressing .
The British Empire abolished slavery long before 1860.
With COMPENSATION for all the slave owners.
Under another century of British guidance the civil war is avoided.
The Spanish American War is avoided.
We don't invade the Philippines, Puerto Rico, a host of central American countries.
The tragic slaughter of Native Americans and American settlers is greatly reduced.
Howver extremely limitted individuals like your self have no capacity to think outside the box.
Which is way you don't have the best of lifestyles.
Lifestyles?? Bend over and get railed by your dog you ignorant sack of shlt.
There was always going to be a civil war in the US. The Declaration and Constitution were both written in a manner that foretold the inevitable.
British fealty would have done little to prevent a much worse outcome.
The Declaration more or less abolished slavery, but not by outright decree, in 1776. The issue was already there, and the Forefathers knew it. They allowed the states to figure it out and FAFO at their own behest, in an attempt to build a "more perfect Union".
Circle jerks like yourself don't even realize the lack of their own foresight, let alone the ability to analyze a situation as big as having the Empire win the Revolution. Some nice simpletonian thoughts compiled into a post does not make a good argument.
Mr. Treehorn treats objects like women, man.
Georgia (relatively well off post war Southern State) did not see its tax rolls even return to their pre-War level until the 1960s.KaiBear said:Almost 600,00 Americans died in the Civil War . Hundreds of thousands more were permanently disabled.trey3216 said:About .1% as absurd as your claiming "the wrong side won the American Revolution" and "the Revolution needed to happen 100 years later". You're a pathetic thinker, and a sad American, if you are one.KaiBear said:Absurd response.trey3216 said:KaiBear said:trey3216 said:KaiBear said:trey3216 said:KaiBear said:
If Ukraine is 'winning' how is it Russian troops still occupy wide areas of eastern Ukraine and Russian missiles attack Ukrainian civilian targets with impunity?
Well, Russia has largely occupied those lands with special forces and $$ for more than a decade, and Russia is a piece of shlt country that intentionally destroys civilian targets with no care because all they know is strong arm/fear tactics. They are a nation of suffering that knows nothing more than to try to make others suffer if they can't have their way. Ukraine has suffered from it, but it's only hardened their resolve.
If Ukraine was 'winning' they would have pushed Russian forces out of eastern Ukraine by now .
If Ukraine was 'winning' Russian missiles would not be raining down on Ukrainian civilians and infrastructure on a daily basis .
If Russia was "winning" they wouldn't have lost 3-5x what Ukraine has lost in this "special operation" and they wouldn't have nearly had a coup, and they wouldn't be resorting to launching missiles at civilians without remorse. They have no momentum, have exhausted much of their "hinterland" troops and are about to have to start scooping up Moscow/St Pete kids for the meat grinder, and don't have the capability to produce enough weaponry to keep up going forward. They are a pariah nation that has literally chosen to risk their entire standing in the world for the Imperial whims of yesteryear of a diminutive tyrant. Well done VVP.
None of this subjective narrative explains how a country getting hammered by missiles everyday is 'winning' a war when millions of its citizens have found it necessary to flee into neighboring countries .
Ukraine simply cannot continue to exist with its infrastructure indefinitely pounded from the air .
Simply can't continue to have millions of its citizens fleeing abroad.
Russia can play this game for years , Ukraine can't .
Israel gets hit by Rockets all the time…
Out of a total population of less than 32 million. Do the bloody math kiddo.
In addition the south was economically annihilated. Took almost a century for the region to recover.
A strong argument can be made that many parts of the South and many Southern States simply never recovered at all.
Areas like the Mississippi Delta went from being one of the richest regions of the Country to one of the poorest today.
Also began a out migration from the South (to the North and West) that would end up accounting for millions of people (White and Black) and go on almost without stopping for 120 years.
This also not the Middle Ages with a relatively stagnant economic development. If a region or country falls behind in economic world growth through say a massive destructive war...it becomes very hard to every catch up.
Depending on how bad a war is.... it can have long long term effects on the economics and civil society of a country or region.
Ukraine may or might not ever recover.
Its even hard to imagine what Texas would be like if it had not lost several decades of population growth and economic development to war. It could easily be more populous than California and as rich or richer today.
It all depends on the post-war. If Ukraine embraces the EU and is allowed into NATO they will recover beyond where they were.Redbrickbear said:Georgia (relatively well off post war Southern State) did not see its tax rolls even return to their pre-War level until the 1960s.KaiBear said:Almost 600,00 Americans died in the Civil War . Hundreds of thousands more were permanently disabled.trey3216 said:About .1% as absurd as your claiming "the wrong side won the American Revolution" and "the Revolution needed to happen 100 years later". You're a pathetic thinker, and a sad American, if you are one.KaiBear said:Absurd response.trey3216 said:KaiBear said:trey3216 said:KaiBear said:trey3216 said:KaiBear said:
If Ukraine is 'winning' how is it Russian troops still occupy wide areas of eastern Ukraine and Russian missiles attack Ukrainian civilian targets with impunity?
Well, Russia has largely occupied those lands with special forces and $$ for more than a decade, and Russia is a piece of shlt country that intentionally destroys civilian targets with no care because all they know is strong arm/fear tactics. They are a nation of suffering that knows nothing more than to try to make others suffer if they can't have their way. Ukraine has suffered from it, but it's only hardened their resolve.
If Ukraine was 'winning' they would have pushed Russian forces out of eastern Ukraine by now .
If Ukraine was 'winning' Russian missiles would not be raining down on Ukrainian civilians and infrastructure on a daily basis .
If Russia was "winning" they wouldn't have lost 3-5x what Ukraine has lost in this "special operation" and they wouldn't have nearly had a coup, and they wouldn't be resorting to launching missiles at civilians without remorse. They have no momentum, have exhausted much of their "hinterland" troops and are about to have to start scooping up Moscow/St Pete kids for the meat grinder, and don't have the capability to produce enough weaponry to keep up going forward. They are a pariah nation that has literally chosen to risk their entire standing in the world for the Imperial whims of yesteryear of a diminutive tyrant. Well done VVP.
None of this subjective narrative explains how a country getting hammered by missiles everyday is 'winning' a war when millions of its citizens have found it necessary to flee into neighboring countries .
Ukraine simply cannot continue to exist with its infrastructure indefinitely pounded from the air .
Simply can't continue to have millions of its citizens fleeing abroad.
Russia can play this game for years , Ukraine can't .
Israel gets hit by Rockets all the time…
Out of a total population of less than 32 million. Do the bloody math kiddo.
In addition the south was economically annihilated. Took almost a century for the region to recover.
A strong argument can be made that many parts of the South and many Southern States simply never recovered at all.
Areas like the Mississippi Delta went from being one of the richest regions of the Country to one of the poorest today.
Also began a out migration from the South (to the North and West) that would end up accounting for millions of people (White and Black) and go on almost without stopping for 120 years.
This also not the Middle Ages with a relatively stagnant economic development. If a region or country falls behind in economic world growth through say a massive destructive war...it becomes very hard to every catch up.
Depending on how bad a war is.... it can have long long term effects on the economics and civil society of a country or region.
Ukraine may or might not ever recover.
Its even hard to imagine what Texas would be like if it had not lost several decades of population growth and economic development to war. It could easily be more populous than California and as rich or richer today.
If the South would have not tried to fight against the emancipation for close to 100 years after they would have recovered quicker and better.
FLBear5630 said:It all depends on the post-war. If Ukraine embraces the EU and is allowed into NATO they will recover beyond where they were.Redbrickbear said:Georgia (relatively well off post war Southern State) did not see its tax rolls even return to their pre-War level until the 1960s.KaiBear said:Almost 600,00 Americans died in the Civil War . Hundreds of thousands more were permanently disabled.trey3216 said:About .1% as absurd as your claiming "the wrong side won the American Revolution" and "the Revolution needed to happen 100 years later". You're a pathetic thinker, and a sad American, if you are one.KaiBear said:Absurd response.trey3216 said:KaiBear said:trey3216 said:KaiBear said:trey3216 said:KaiBear said:
If Ukraine is 'winning' how is it Russian troops still occupy wide areas of eastern Ukraine and Russian missiles attack Ukrainian civilian targets with impunity?
Well, Russia has largely occupied those lands with special forces and $$ for more than a decade, and Russia is a piece of shlt country that intentionally destroys civilian targets with no care because all they know is strong arm/fear tactics. They are a nation of suffering that knows nothing more than to try to make others suffer if they can't have their way. Ukraine has suffered from it, but it's only hardened their resolve.
If Ukraine was 'winning' they would have pushed Russian forces out of eastern Ukraine by now .
If Ukraine was 'winning' Russian missiles would not be raining down on Ukrainian civilians and infrastructure on a daily basis .
If Russia was "winning" they wouldn't have lost 3-5x what Ukraine has lost in this "special operation" and they wouldn't have nearly had a coup, and they wouldn't be resorting to launching missiles at civilians without remorse. They have no momentum, have exhausted much of their "hinterland" troops and are about to have to start scooping up Moscow/St Pete kids for the meat grinder, and don't have the capability to produce enough weaponry to keep up going forward. They are a pariah nation that has literally chosen to risk their entire standing in the world for the Imperial whims of yesteryear of a diminutive tyrant. Well done VVP.
None of this subjective narrative explains how a country getting hammered by missiles everyday is 'winning' a war when millions of its citizens have found it necessary to flee into neighboring countries .
Ukraine simply cannot continue to exist with its infrastructure indefinitely pounded from the air .
Simply can't continue to have millions of its citizens fleeing abroad.
Russia can play this game for years , Ukraine can't .
Israel gets hit by Rockets all the time…
Out of a total population of less than 32 million. Do the bloody math kiddo.
In addition the south was economically annihilated. Took almost a century for the region to recover.
A strong argument can be made that many parts of the South and many Southern States simply never recovered at all.
Areas like the Mississippi Delta went from being one of the richest regions of the Country to one of the poorest today.
Also began a out migration from the South (to the North and West) that would end up accounting for millions of people (White and Black) and go on almost without stopping for 120 years.
This also not the Middle Ages with a relatively stagnant economic development. If a region or country falls behind in economic world growth through say a massive destructive war...it becomes very hard to every catch up.
Depending on how bad a war is.... it can have long long term effects on the economics and civil society of a country or region.
Ukraine may or might not ever recover.
Its even hard to imagine what Texas would be like if it had not lost several decades of population growth and economic development to war. It could easily be more populous than California and as rich or richer today.
Now that is a good point.
Also another reason they should give up on the poor, rusting out, filled with ethnic russian Donbas.
A lead weight holding them down from integration with the EU.
Ukraine with their current Central and Western regions (and sans anti-EU eastern population) would recover faster than if they continue to try and hold on to a poor breakaway region that is going to be hard for them to ever integrate into the State.
Redbrickbear said:FLBear5630 said:It all depends on the post-war. If Ukraine embraces the EU and is allowed into NATO they will recover beyond where they were.Redbrickbear said:Georgia (relatively well off post war Southern State) did not see its tax rolls even return to their pre-War level until the 1960s.KaiBear said:Almost 600,00 Americans died in the Civil War . Hundreds of thousands more were permanently disabled.trey3216 said:About .1% as absurd as your claiming "the wrong side won the American Revolution" and "the Revolution needed to happen 100 years later". You're a pathetic thinker, and a sad American, if you are one.KaiBear said:Absurd response.trey3216 said:KaiBear said:trey3216 said:KaiBear said:trey3216 said:KaiBear said:
If Ukraine is 'winning' how is it Russian troops still occupy wide areas of eastern Ukraine and Russian missiles attack Ukrainian civilian targets with impunity?
Well, Russia has largely occupied those lands with special forces and $$ for more than a decade, and Russia is a piece of shlt country that intentionally destroys civilian targets with no care because all they know is strong arm/fear tactics. They are a nation of suffering that knows nothing more than to try to make others suffer if they can't have their way. Ukraine has suffered from it, but it's only hardened their resolve.
If Ukraine was 'winning' they would have pushed Russian forces out of eastern Ukraine by now .
If Ukraine was 'winning' Russian missiles would not be raining down on Ukrainian civilians and infrastructure on a daily basis .
If Russia was "winning" they wouldn't have lost 3-5x what Ukraine has lost in this "special operation" and they wouldn't have nearly had a coup, and they wouldn't be resorting to launching missiles at civilians without remorse. They have no momentum, have exhausted much of their "hinterland" troops and are about to have to start scooping up Moscow/St Pete kids for the meat grinder, and don't have the capability to produce enough weaponry to keep up going forward. They are a pariah nation that has literally chosen to risk their entire standing in the world for the Imperial whims of yesteryear of a diminutive tyrant. Well done VVP.
None of this subjective narrative explains how a country getting hammered by missiles everyday is 'winning' a war when millions of its citizens have found it necessary to flee into neighboring countries .
Ukraine simply cannot continue to exist with its infrastructure indefinitely pounded from the air .
Simply can't continue to have millions of its citizens fleeing abroad.
Russia can play this game for years , Ukraine can't .
Israel gets hit by Rockets all the time…
Out of a total population of less than 32 million. Do the bloody math kiddo.
In addition the south was economically annihilated. Took almost a century for the region to recover.
A strong argument can be made that many parts of the South and many Southern States simply never recovered at all.
Areas like the Mississippi Delta went from being one of the richest regions of the Country to one of the poorest today.
Also began a out migration from the South (to the North and West) that would end up accounting for millions of people (White and Black) and go on almost without stopping for 120 years.
This also not the Middle Ages with a relatively stagnant economic development. If a region or country falls behind in economic world growth through say a massive destructive war...it becomes very hard to every catch up.
Depending on how bad a war is.... it can have long long term effects on the economics and civil society of a country or region.
Ukraine may or might not ever recover.
Its even hard to imagine what Texas would be like if it had not lost several decades of population growth and economic development to war. It could easily be more populous than California and as rich or richer today.
Now that is a good point.
Also another reason they should give up on the poor, rusting out, filled with ethnic russian Donbas.
A lead weight holding them down from integration with the EU.
Ukraine with their current Central and Western regions (and sans anti-EU eastern population) would recover faster than if they continue to try and hold on to a poor breakaway region that is going to be hard for them to ever integrate into the State.
Having a manufacturing base and keeping their Oil/Natty reserves is a huge part of the equation, and the biggest reason why Russia wanted Donbas and Crimea to begin with.
Mr. Treehorn treats objects like women, man.
I don't disagree with this analysis, if they cannot take back Crimea. If they can't, invest in Odessa and cede Donba in exchange for EU and NATO full membership. That is where I would be going.Redbrickbear said:FLBear5630 said:It all depends on the post-war. If Ukraine embraces the EU and is allowed into NATO they will recover beyond where they were.Redbrickbear said:Georgia (relatively well off post war Southern State) did not see its tax rolls even return to their pre-War level until the 1960s.KaiBear said:Almost 600,00 Americans died in the Civil War . Hundreds of thousands more were permanently disabled.trey3216 said:About .1% as absurd as your claiming "the wrong side won the American Revolution" and "the Revolution needed to happen 100 years later". You're a pathetic thinker, and a sad American, if you are one.KaiBear said:Absurd response.trey3216 said:KaiBear said:trey3216 said:KaiBear said:trey3216 said:KaiBear said:
If Ukraine is 'winning' how is it Russian troops still occupy wide areas of eastern Ukraine and Russian missiles attack Ukrainian civilian targets with impunity?
Well, Russia has largely occupied those lands with special forces and $$ for more than a decade, and Russia is a piece of shlt country that intentionally destroys civilian targets with no care because all they know is strong arm/fear tactics. They are a nation of suffering that knows nothing more than to try to make others suffer if they can't have their way. Ukraine has suffered from it, but it's only hardened their resolve.
If Ukraine was 'winning' they would have pushed Russian forces out of eastern Ukraine by now .
If Ukraine was 'winning' Russian missiles would not be raining down on Ukrainian civilians and infrastructure on a daily basis .
If Russia was "winning" they wouldn't have lost 3-5x what Ukraine has lost in this "special operation" and they wouldn't have nearly had a coup, and they wouldn't be resorting to launching missiles at civilians without remorse. They have no momentum, have exhausted much of their "hinterland" troops and are about to have to start scooping up Moscow/St Pete kids for the meat grinder, and don't have the capability to produce enough weaponry to keep up going forward. They are a pariah nation that has literally chosen to risk their entire standing in the world for the Imperial whims of yesteryear of a diminutive tyrant. Well done VVP.
None of this subjective narrative explains how a country getting hammered by missiles everyday is 'winning' a war when millions of its citizens have found it necessary to flee into neighboring countries .
Ukraine simply cannot continue to exist with its infrastructure indefinitely pounded from the air .
Simply can't continue to have millions of its citizens fleeing abroad.
Russia can play this game for years , Ukraine can't .
Israel gets hit by Rockets all the time…
Out of a total population of less than 32 million. Do the bloody math kiddo.
In addition the south was economically annihilated. Took almost a century for the region to recover.
A strong argument can be made that many parts of the South and many Southern States simply never recovered at all.
Areas like the Mississippi Delta went from being one of the richest regions of the Country to one of the poorest today.
Also began a out migration from the South (to the North and West) that would end up accounting for millions of people (White and Black) and go on almost without stopping for 120 years.
This also not the Middle Ages with a relatively stagnant economic development. If a region or country falls behind in economic world growth through say a massive destructive war...it becomes very hard to every catch up.
Depending on how bad a war is.... it can have long long term effects on the economics and civil society of a country or region.
Ukraine may or might not ever recover.
Its even hard to imagine what Texas would be like if it had not lost several decades of population growth and economic development to war. It could easily be more populous than California and as rich or richer today.
Now that is a good point.
Also another reason they should give up on the poor, rusting out, filled with ethnic russian Donbas.
A lead weight holding them down from integration with the EU.
Ukraine with their current Central and Western regions (and sans anti-EU eastern population) would recover faster than if they continue to try and hold on to a poor breakaway region that is going to be hard for them to ever integrate into the State.
Well for the 10th time ( at least ) you certainly showed your lack of maturity, intelligence and common sense.trey3216 said:Extremely limited individuals, eh?KaiBear said:Almost 600,00 Americans died in the Civil War . Hundreds of thousands more were permanently disabled.trey3216 said:About .1% as absurd as your claiming "the wrong side won the American Revolution" and "the Revolution needed to happen 100 years later". You're a pathetic thinker, and a sad American, if you are one.KaiBear said:Absurd response.trey3216 said:KaiBear said:trey3216 said:KaiBear said:trey3216 said:KaiBear said:
If Ukraine is 'winning' how is it Russian troops still occupy wide areas of eastern Ukraine and Russian missiles attack Ukrainian civilian targets with impunity?
Well, Russia has largely occupied those lands with special forces and $$ for more than a decade, and Russia is a piece of shlt country that intentionally destroys civilian targets with no care because all they know is strong arm/fear tactics. They are a nation of suffering that knows nothing more than to try to make others suffer if they can't have their way. Ukraine has suffered from it, but it's only hardened their resolve.
If Ukraine was 'winning' they would have pushed Russian forces out of eastern Ukraine by now .
If Ukraine was 'winning' Russian missiles would not be raining down on Ukrainian civilians and infrastructure on a daily basis .
If Russia was "winning" they wouldn't have lost 3-5x what Ukraine has lost in this "special operation" and they wouldn't have nearly had a coup, and they wouldn't be resorting to launching missiles at civilians without remorse. They have no momentum, have exhausted much of their "hinterland" troops and are about to have to start scooping up Moscow/St Pete kids for the meat grinder, and don't have the capability to produce enough weaponry to keep up going forward. They are a pariah nation that has literally chosen to risk their entire standing in the world for the Imperial whims of yesteryear of a diminutive tyrant. Well done VVP.
None of this subjective narrative explains how a country getting hammered by missiles everyday is 'winning' a war when millions of its citizens have found it necessary to flee into neighboring countries .
Ukraine simply cannot continue to exist with its infrastructure indefinitely pounded from the air .
Simply can't continue to have millions of its citizens fleeing abroad.
Russia can play this game for years , Ukraine can't .
Israel gets hit by Rockets all the time…
Out of a total population of less than 32 million. Do the bloody math kiddo.
In addition the south was economically annihilated. Took almost a century for the region to recover.
All over the issue of slavery and the economic value they respresented .
Anything else put forward as a 'reason' for the war is mere window dressing .
The British Empire abolished slavery long before 1860.
With COMPENSATION for all the slave owners.
Under another century of British guidance the civil war is avoided.
The Spanish American War is avoided.
We don't invade the Philippines, Puerto Rico, a host of central American countries.
The tragic slaughter of Native Americans and American settlers is greatly reduced.
Howver extremely limitted individuals like your self have no capacity to think outside the box.
Which is way you don't have the best of lifestyles.
Lifestyles?? Bend over and get railed by your dog you ignorant sack of shlt.
LOL, I realized long ago you don't have the confidence or experience for rational exchanges.
However it amusus me to occaisionally waste a few minutes attempting to educate the terminally stupid.
Last 'pearl' for you:
Compare the histories of the United States and Canada since 1783.
Compare the respective wars, political strife, RACIAL strife, international 'police actions'.
Compare the quality of life of the two countries.
There is a clear winner.
There is going to come a point where Ukraine can get a sweetheart deal by settling. Once that point is past, then it turns into a death spiral.trey3216 said:Redbrickbear said:FLBear5630 said:It all depends on the post-war. If Ukraine embraces the EU and is allowed into NATO they will recover beyond where they were.Redbrickbear said:Georgia (relatively well off post war Southern State) did not see its tax rolls even return to their pre-War level until the 1960s.KaiBear said:Almost 600,00 Americans died in the Civil War . Hundreds of thousands more were permanently disabled.trey3216 said:About .1% as absurd as your claiming "the wrong side won the American Revolution" and "the Revolution needed to happen 100 years later". You're a pathetic thinker, and a sad American, if you are one.KaiBear said:Absurd response.trey3216 said:KaiBear said:trey3216 said:KaiBear said:trey3216 said:KaiBear said:
If Ukraine is 'winning' how is it Russian troops still occupy wide areas of eastern Ukraine and Russian missiles attack Ukrainian civilian targets with impunity?
Well, Russia has largely occupied those lands with special forces and $$ for more than a decade, and Russia is a piece of shlt country that intentionally destroys civilian targets with no care because all they know is strong arm/fear tactics. They are a nation of suffering that knows nothing more than to try to make others suffer if they can't have their way. Ukraine has suffered from it, but it's only hardened their resolve.
If Ukraine was 'winning' they would have pushed Russian forces out of eastern Ukraine by now .
If Ukraine was 'winning' Russian missiles would not be raining down on Ukrainian civilians and infrastructure on a daily basis .
If Russia was "winning" they wouldn't have lost 3-5x what Ukraine has lost in this "special operation" and they wouldn't have nearly had a coup, and they wouldn't be resorting to launching missiles at civilians without remorse. They have no momentum, have exhausted much of their "hinterland" troops and are about to have to start scooping up Moscow/St Pete kids for the meat grinder, and don't have the capability to produce enough weaponry to keep up going forward. They are a pariah nation that has literally chosen to risk their entire standing in the world for the Imperial whims of yesteryear of a diminutive tyrant. Well done VVP.
None of this subjective narrative explains how a country getting hammered by missiles everyday is 'winning' a war when millions of its citizens have found it necessary to flee into neighboring countries .
Ukraine simply cannot continue to exist with its infrastructure indefinitely pounded from the air .
Simply can't continue to have millions of its citizens fleeing abroad.
Russia can play this game for years , Ukraine can't .
Israel gets hit by Rockets all the time…
Out of a total population of less than 32 million. Do the bloody math kiddo.
In addition the south was economically annihilated. Took almost a century for the region to recover.
A strong argument can be made that many parts of the South and many Southern States simply never recovered at all.
Areas like the Mississippi Delta went from being one of the richest regions of the Country to one of the poorest today.
Also began a out migration from the South (to the North and West) that would end up accounting for millions of people (White and Black) and go on almost without stopping for 120 years.
This also not the Middle Ages with a relatively stagnant economic development. If a region or country falls behind in economic world growth through say a massive destructive war...it becomes very hard to every catch up.
Depending on how bad a war is.... it can have long long term effects on the economics and civil society of a country or region.
Ukraine may or might not ever recover.
Its even hard to imagine what Texas would be like if it had not lost several decades of population growth and economic development to war. It could easily be more populous than California and as rich or richer today.
Now that is a good point.
Also another reason they should give up on the poor, rusting out, filled with ethnic russian Donbas.
A lead weight holding them down from integration with the EU.
Ukraine with their current Central and Western regions (and sans anti-EU eastern population) would recover faster than if they continue to try and hold on to a poor breakaway region that is going to be hard for them to ever integrate into the State.
Having a manufacturing base and keeping their Oil/Natty reserves is a huge part of the equation, and the biggest reason why Russia wanted Donbas and Crimea to begin with.
Are they there? I don't know. But, Ukraine needs to do some objective analysis and keep the emotions out of it. They have to leverage what they can out of this.
KaiBear said:Well for the 10th time ( at least ) you certainly showed your lack of maturity, intelligence and common sense.trey3216 said:Extremely limited individuals, eh?KaiBear said:Almost 600,00 Americans died in the Civil War . Hundreds of thousands more were permanently disabled.trey3216 said:About .1% as absurd as your claiming "the wrong side won the American Revolution" and "the Revolution needed to happen 100 years later". You're a pathetic thinker, and a sad American, if you are one.KaiBear said:Absurd response.trey3216 said:KaiBear said:trey3216 said:KaiBear said:trey3216 said:KaiBear said:
If Ukraine is 'winning' how is it Russian troops still occupy wide areas of eastern Ukraine and Russian missiles attack Ukrainian civilian targets with impunity?
Well, Russia has largely occupied those lands with special forces and $$ for more than a decade, and Russia is a piece of shlt country that intentionally destroys civilian targets with no care because all they know is strong arm/fear tactics. They are a nation of suffering that knows nothing more than to try to make others suffer if they can't have their way. Ukraine has suffered from it, but it's only hardened their resolve.
If Ukraine was 'winning' they would have pushed Russian forces out of eastern Ukraine by now .
If Ukraine was 'winning' Russian missiles would not be raining down on Ukrainian civilians and infrastructure on a daily basis .
If Russia was "winning" they wouldn't have lost 3-5x what Ukraine has lost in this "special operation" and they wouldn't have nearly had a coup, and they wouldn't be resorting to launching missiles at civilians without remorse. They have no momentum, have exhausted much of their "hinterland" troops and are about to have to start scooping up Moscow/St Pete kids for the meat grinder, and don't have the capability to produce enough weaponry to keep up going forward. They are a pariah nation that has literally chosen to risk their entire standing in the world for the Imperial whims of yesteryear of a diminutive tyrant. Well done VVP.
None of this subjective narrative explains how a country getting hammered by missiles everyday is 'winning' a war when millions of its citizens have found it necessary to flee into neighboring countries .
Ukraine simply cannot continue to exist with its infrastructure indefinitely pounded from the air .
Simply can't continue to have millions of its citizens fleeing abroad.
Russia can play this game for years , Ukraine can't .
Israel gets hit by Rockets all the time…
Out of a total population of less than 32 million. Do the bloody math kiddo.
In addition the south was economically annihilated. Took almost a century for the region to recover.
All over the issue of slavery and the economic value they respresented .
Anything else put forward as a 'reason' for the war is mere window dressing .
The British Empire abolished slavery long before 1860.
With COMPENSATION for all the slave owners.
Under another century of British guidance the civil war is avoided.
The Spanish American War is avoided.
We don't invade the Philippines, Puerto Rico, a host of central American countries.
The tragic slaughter of Native Americans and American settlers is greatly reduced.
Howver extremely limitted individuals like your self have no capacity to think outside the box.
Which is way you don't have the best of lifestyles.
Lifestyles?? Bend over and get railed by your dog you ignorant sack of shlt.
LOL, I realized long ago you don't have the confidence or experience for rational exchanges.
However it amusus me to occaisionally waste a few minutes attempting to educate the terminally stupid.
Last 'pearl' for you:
Compare the histories of the United States and Canada since 1783.
Compare the respective wars, political strife, RACIAL strife, international 'police actions'.
Compare the quality of life of the two countries.
There is a clear winner.
The US is the clear winner in every regard. Hands down. Unless you are a socialist wannabe fake acto on the world stage. How much time have you spent in Canada?
Confidence/experience??? Lol, ok.
Mr. Treehorn treats objects like women, man.
trey3216 said:KaiBear said:Well for the 10th time ( at least ) you certainly showed your lack of maturity, intelligence and common sense.trey3216 said:Extremely limited individuals, eh?KaiBear said:Almost 600,00 Americans died in the Civil War . Hundreds of thousands more were permanently disabled.trey3216 said:About .1% as absurd as your claiming "the wrong side won the American Revolution" and "the Revolution needed to happen 100 years later". You're a pathetic thinker, and a sad American, if you are one.KaiBear said:Absurd response.trey3216 said:KaiBear said:trey3216 said:KaiBear said:trey3216 said:KaiBear said:
If Ukraine is 'winning' how is it Russian troops still occupy wide areas of eastern Ukraine and Russian missiles attack Ukrainian civilian targets with impunity?
Well, Russia has largely occupied those lands with special forces and $$ for more than a decade, and Russia is a piece of shlt country that intentionally destroys civilian targets with no care because all they know is strong arm/fear tactics. They are a nation of suffering that knows nothing more than to try to make others suffer if they can't have their way. Ukraine has suffered from it, but it's only hardened their resolve.
If Ukraine was 'winning' they would have pushed Russian forces out of eastern Ukraine by now .
If Ukraine was 'winning' Russian missiles would not be raining down on Ukrainian civilians and infrastructure on a daily basis .
If Russia was "winning" they wouldn't have lost 3-5x what Ukraine has lost in this "special operation" and they wouldn't have nearly had a coup, and they wouldn't be resorting to launching missiles at civilians without remorse. They have no momentum, have exhausted much of their "hinterland" troops and are about to have to start scooping up Moscow/St Pete kids for the meat grinder, and don't have the capability to produce enough weaponry to keep up going forward. They are a pariah nation that has literally chosen to risk their entire standing in the world for the Imperial whims of yesteryear of a diminutive tyrant. Well done VVP.
None of this subjective narrative explains how a country getting hammered by missiles everyday is 'winning' a war when millions of its citizens have found it necessary to flee into neighboring countries .
Ukraine simply cannot continue to exist with its infrastructure indefinitely pounded from the air .
Simply can't continue to have millions of its citizens fleeing abroad.
Russia can play this game for years , Ukraine can't .
Israel gets hit by Rockets all the time…
Out of a total population of less than 32 million. Do the bloody math kiddo.
In addition the south was economically annihilated. Took almost a century for the region to recover.
All over the issue of slavery and the economic value they respresented .
Anything else put forward as a 'reason' for the war is mere window dressing .
The British Empire abolished slavery long before 1860.
With COMPENSATION for all the slave owners.
Under another century of British guidance the civil war is avoided.
The Spanish American War is avoided.
We don't invade the Philippines, Puerto Rico, a host of central American countries.
The tragic slaughter of Native Americans and American settlers is greatly reduced.
Howver extremely limitted individuals like your self have no capacity to think outside the box.
Which is way you don't have the best of lifestyles.
Lifestyles?? Bend over and get railed by your dog you ignorant sack of shlt.
LOL, I realized long ago you don't have the confidence or experience for rational exchanges.
However it amusus me to occaisionally waste a few minutes attempting to educate the terminally stupid.
Last 'pearl' for you:
Compare the histories of the United States and Canada since 1783.
Compare the respective wars, political strife, RACIAL strife, international 'police actions'.
Compare the quality of life of the two countries.
There is a clear winner.
The US is the clear winner in every regard. Hands down. Unless you are a socialist wannabe fake acto on the world stage. How much time have you spent in Canada?
Confidence/experience??? Lol, ok.
Could that poster be the missing Aggie Canada poster? Sure reads the same....
Well at least this time you aren't discussing getting 'railed by a dog'.trey3216 said:KaiBear said:Well for the 10th time ( at least ) you certainly showed your lack of maturity, intelligence and common sense.trey3216 said:Extremely limited individuals, eh?KaiBear said:Almost 600,00 Americans died in the Civil War . Hundreds of thousands more were permanently disabled.trey3216 said:About .1% as absurd as your claiming "the wrong side won the American Revolution" and "the Revolution needed to happen 100 years later". You're a pathetic thinker, and a sad American, if you are one.KaiBear said:Absurd response.trey3216 said:KaiBear said:trey3216 said:KaiBear said:trey3216 said:KaiBear said:
If Ukraine is 'winning' how is it Russian troops still occupy wide areas of eastern Ukraine and Russian missiles attack Ukrainian civilian targets with impunity?
Well, Russia has largely occupied those lands with special forces and $$ for more than a decade, and Russia is a piece of shlt country that intentionally destroys civilian targets with no care because all they know is strong arm/fear tactics. They are a nation of suffering that knows nothing more than to try to make others suffer if they can't have their way. Ukraine has suffered from it, but it's only hardened their resolve.
If Ukraine was 'winning' they would have pushed Russian forces out of eastern Ukraine by now .
If Ukraine was 'winning' Russian missiles would not be raining down on Ukrainian civilians and infrastructure on a daily basis .
If Russia was "winning" they wouldn't have lost 3-5x what Ukraine has lost in this "special operation" and they wouldn't have nearly had a coup, and they wouldn't be resorting to launching missiles at civilians without remorse. They have no momentum, have exhausted much of their "hinterland" troops and are about to have to start scooping up Moscow/St Pete kids for the meat grinder, and don't have the capability to produce enough weaponry to keep up going forward. They are a pariah nation that has literally chosen to risk their entire standing in the world for the Imperial whims of yesteryear of a diminutive tyrant. Well done VVP.
None of this subjective narrative explains how a country getting hammered by missiles everyday is 'winning' a war when millions of its citizens have found it necessary to flee into neighboring countries .
Ukraine simply cannot continue to exist with its infrastructure indefinitely pounded from the air .
Simply can't continue to have millions of its citizens fleeing abroad.
Russia can play this game for years , Ukraine can't .
Israel gets hit by Rockets all the time…
Out of a total population of less than 32 million. Do the bloody math kiddo.
In addition the south was economically annihilated. Took almost a century for the region to recover.
All over the issue of slavery and the economic value they respresented .
Anything else put forward as a 'reason' for the war is mere window dressing .
The British Empire abolished slavery long before 1860.
With COMPENSATION for all the slave owners.
Under another century of British guidance the civil war is avoided.
The Spanish American War is avoided.
We don't invade the Philippines, Puerto Rico, a host of central American countries.
The tragic slaughter of Native Americans and American settlers is greatly reduced.
Howver extremely limitted individuals like your self have no capacity to think outside the box.
Which is way you don't have the best of lifestyles.
Lifestyles?? Bend over and get railed by your dog you ignorant sack of shlt.
LOL, I realized long ago you don't have the confidence or experience for rational exchanges.
However it amusus me to occaisionally waste a few minutes attempting to educate the terminally stupid.
Last 'pearl' for you:
Compare the histories of the United States and Canada since 1783.
Compare the respective wars, political strife, RACIAL strife, international 'police actions'.
Compare the quality of life of the two countries.
There is a clear winner.
The US is the clear winner in every regard. Hands down. Unless you are a socialist wannabe fake acto on the world stage. How much time have you spent in Canada?
Confidence/experience??? Lol, ok.
Guess that is some small sign of hope for you .
The US is the winner ? LOL . In what body bags getting delivered from oversea 'police actions' ?
There are at least 12 major US cities that have degenerated into total hell holes. Mass murders are a monthly event, racial strife is commonplace. The US is hated by most of Asia, the Middle East, the Far East, central America, and much of South America.
Who hates Canadians ? No one.
How much time have I spent in Canada ? Years.
KaiBear said:Well at least this time you aren't discussing getting 'railed by a dog'.trey3216 said:KaiBear said:Well for the 10th time ( at least ) you certainly showed your lack of maturity, intelligence and common sense.trey3216 said:Extremely limited individuals, eh?KaiBear said:Almost 600,00 Americans died in the Civil War . Hundreds of thousands more were permanently disabled.trey3216 said:About .1% as absurd as your claiming "the wrong side won the American Revolution" and "the Revolution needed to happen 100 years later". You're a pathetic thinker, and a sad American, if you are one.KaiBear said:Absurd response.trey3216 said:KaiBear said:trey3216 said:KaiBear said:trey3216 said:KaiBear said:
If Ukraine is 'winning' how is it Russian troops still occupy wide areas of eastern Ukraine and Russian missiles attack Ukrainian civilian targets with impunity?
Well, Russia has largely occupied those lands with special forces and $$ for more than a decade, and Russia is a piece of shlt country that intentionally destroys civilian targets with no care because all they know is strong arm/fear tactics. They are a nation of suffering that knows nothing more than to try to make others suffer if they can't have their way. Ukraine has suffered from it, but it's only hardened their resolve.
If Ukraine was 'winning' they would have pushed Russian forces out of eastern Ukraine by now .
If Ukraine was 'winning' Russian missiles would not be raining down on Ukrainian civilians and infrastructure on a daily basis .
If Russia was "winning" they wouldn't have lost 3-5x what Ukraine has lost in this "special operation" and they wouldn't have nearly had a coup, and they wouldn't be resorting to launching missiles at civilians without remorse. They have no momentum, have exhausted much of their "hinterland" troops and are about to have to start scooping up Moscow/St Pete kids for the meat grinder, and don't have the capability to produce enough weaponry to keep up going forward. They are a pariah nation that has literally chosen to risk their entire standing in the world for the Imperial whims of yesteryear of a diminutive tyrant. Well done VVP.
None of this subjective narrative explains how a country getting hammered by missiles everyday is 'winning' a war when millions of its citizens have found it necessary to flee into neighboring countries .
Ukraine simply cannot continue to exist with its infrastructure indefinitely pounded from the air .
Simply can't continue to have millions of its citizens fleeing abroad.
Russia can play this game for years , Ukraine can't .
Israel gets hit by Rockets all the time…
Out of a total population of less than 32 million. Do the bloody math kiddo.
In addition the south was economically annihilated. Took almost a century for the region to recover.
All over the issue of slavery and the economic value they respresented .
Anything else put forward as a 'reason' for the war is mere window dressing .
The British Empire abolished slavery long before 1860.
With COMPENSATION for all the slave owners.
Under another century of British guidance the civil war is avoided.
The Spanish American War is avoided.
We don't invade the Philippines, Puerto Rico, a host of central American countries.
The tragic slaughter of Native Americans and American settlers is greatly reduced.
Howver extremely limitted individuals like your self have no capacity to think outside the box.
Which is way you don't have the best of lifestyles.
Lifestyles?? Bend over and get railed by your dog you ignorant sack of shlt.
LOL, I realized long ago you don't have the confidence or experience for rational exchanges.
However it amusus me to occaisionally waste a few minutes attempting to educate the terminally stupid.
Last 'pearl' for you:
Compare the histories of the United States and Canada since 1783.
Compare the respective wars, political strife, RACIAL strife, international 'police actions'.
Compare the quality of life of the two countries.
There is a clear winner.
The US is the clear winner in every regard. Hands down. Unless you are a socialist wannabe fake acto on the world stage. How much time have you spent in Canada?
Confidence/experience??? Lol, ok.
Guess that is some small sign of hope for you .
The US is the winner ? LOL . In what body bags getting delivered from oversea 'police actions' ?
There are at least 12 major US cities that have degenerated into total hell holes. Mass murders are a monthly event, racial strife is commonplace. The US is hated by most of Asia, the Middle East, the Far East, central America, and much of South America.
Who hates Canadians ? No one.
How much time have I spent in Canada ? Years.
Who loves Canadians? Canadians and the Dutch?
Racial strife in everyday America is much less a daily thing than the media promotes. Good luck getting a surgery you need in Canada, unless you're willing to wait until you're damn near dead to do it.
Want to protest Covid in Canada???? Better be ready to have your bank account cancelled.
Yeah. Canada is a ****ing dreamland (it is for vacationing Americans).
Mr. Treehorn treats objects like women, man.
It also take months to get medical procedures, they come down here to Florida to get them and crossed into Wisconsin when we lived there.KaiBear said:Well at least this time you aren't discussing getting 'railed by a dog'.trey3216 said:KaiBear said:Well for the 10th time ( at least ) you certainly showed your lack of maturity, intelligence and common sense.trey3216 said:Extremely limited individuals, eh?KaiBear said:Almost 600,00 Americans died in the Civil War . Hundreds of thousands more were permanently disabled.trey3216 said:About .1% as absurd as your claiming "the wrong side won the American Revolution" and "the Revolution needed to happen 100 years later". You're a pathetic thinker, and a sad American, if you are one.KaiBear said:Absurd response.trey3216 said:KaiBear said:trey3216 said:KaiBear said:trey3216 said:KaiBear said:
If Ukraine is 'winning' how is it Russian troops still occupy wide areas of eastern Ukraine and Russian missiles attack Ukrainian civilian targets with impunity?
Well, Russia has largely occupied those lands with special forces and $$ for more than a decade, and Russia is a piece of shlt country that intentionally destroys civilian targets with no care because all they know is strong arm/fear tactics. They are a nation of suffering that knows nothing more than to try to make others suffer if they can't have their way. Ukraine has suffered from it, but it's only hardened their resolve.
If Ukraine was 'winning' they would have pushed Russian forces out of eastern Ukraine by now .
If Ukraine was 'winning' Russian missiles would not be raining down on Ukrainian civilians and infrastructure on a daily basis .
If Russia was "winning" they wouldn't have lost 3-5x what Ukraine has lost in this "special operation" and they wouldn't have nearly had a coup, and they wouldn't be resorting to launching missiles at civilians without remorse. They have no momentum, have exhausted much of their "hinterland" troops and are about to have to start scooping up Moscow/St Pete kids for the meat grinder, and don't have the capability to produce enough weaponry to keep up going forward. They are a pariah nation that has literally chosen to risk their entire standing in the world for the Imperial whims of yesteryear of a diminutive tyrant. Well done VVP.
None of this subjective narrative explains how a country getting hammered by missiles everyday is 'winning' a war when millions of its citizens have found it necessary to flee into neighboring countries .
Ukraine simply cannot continue to exist with its infrastructure indefinitely pounded from the air .
Simply can't continue to have millions of its citizens fleeing abroad.
Russia can play this game for years , Ukraine can't .
Israel gets hit by Rockets all the time…
Out of a total population of less than 32 million. Do the bloody math kiddo.
In addition the south was economically annihilated. Took almost a century for the region to recover.
All over the issue of slavery and the economic value they respresented .
Anything else put forward as a 'reason' for the war is mere window dressing .
The British Empire abolished slavery long before 1860.
With COMPENSATION for all the slave owners.
Under another century of British guidance the civil war is avoided.
The Spanish American War is avoided.
We don't invade the Philippines, Puerto Rico, a host of central American countries.
The tragic slaughter of Native Americans and American settlers is greatly reduced.
Howver extremely limitted individuals like your self have no capacity to think outside the box.
Which is way you don't have the best of lifestyles.
Lifestyles?? Bend over and get railed by your dog you ignorant sack of shlt.
LOL, I realized long ago you don't have the confidence or experience for rational exchanges.
However it amusus me to occaisionally waste a few minutes attempting to educate the terminally stupid.
Last 'pearl' for you:
Compare the histories of the United States and Canada since 1783.
Compare the respective wars, political strife, RACIAL strife, international 'police actions'.
Compare the quality of life of the two countries.
There is a clear winner.
The US is the clear winner in every regard. Hands down. Unless you are a socialist wannabe fake acto on the world stage. How much time have you spent in Canada?
Confidence/experience??? Lol, ok.
Guess that is some small sign of hope for you .
The US is the winner ? LOL . In what body bags getting delivered from oversea 'police actions' ?
There are at least 12 major US cities that have degenerated into total hell holes. Mass murders are a monthly event, racial strife is commonplace. The US is hated by most of Asia, the Middle East, the Far East, central America, and much of South America.
Who hates Canadians ? No one.
How much time have I spent in Canada ? Years.
As for the quality of life, Montreal, Toronto, Vancouver all have areas as scary as any US city. The only place I felt less safe than Montreal was Chicago around Midway Airport...
We have our share of Snow Birds here in Florida, Canada and the US are not that far off each other. Some places are great to visit Halifax, Old City Montreal, Calgary but there are just as many scary places.
As for racial strife, try not being French in Quebec and see how you get treated. Or American in Toronto!! : )
Neither the US nor Canada is Austria. Give me Vienna if we are picking nice places we have been...
"The US is hated by most of Asia, the Middle East, the Far East, central America, and much of South America."
80% of that statement is BS.
For one thing, all the people immigrating to the US from those places is fair proof you are wrong.
Also, a statement like that indicates you don't have friends in those parts of the world.
Sure, they hate our politicians, but our politicians are better than most of what you will find in the rest of the world. And American music, films and products are prized worldwide. Even our cars aren't crap anymore!
80% of that statement is BS.
For one thing, all the people immigrating to the US from those places is fair proof you are wrong.
Also, a statement like that indicates you don't have friends in those parts of the world.
Sure, they hate our politicians, but our politicians are better than most of what you will find in the rest of the world. And American music, films and products are prized worldwide. Even our cars aren't crap anymore!
That which does not kill me, will try again and get nastier
Back to f- bombs. Good grief someone deserves a refund on your private schoold education .trey3216 said:KaiBear said:Well at least this time you aren't discussing getting 'railed by a dog'.trey3216 said:KaiBear said:Well for the 10th time ( at least ) you certainly showed your lack of maturity, intelligence and common sense.trey3216 said:Extremely limited individuals, eh?KaiBear said:Almost 600,00 Americans died in the Civil War . Hundreds of thousands more were permanently disabled.trey3216 said:About .1% as absurd as your claiming "the wrong side won the American Revolution" and "the Revolution needed to happen 100 years later". You're a pathetic thinker, and a sad American, if you are one.KaiBear said:Absurd response.trey3216 said:KaiBear said:trey3216 said:KaiBear said:trey3216 said:KaiBear said:
If Ukraine is 'winning' how is it Russian troops still occupy wide areas of eastern Ukraine and Russian missiles attack Ukrainian civilian targets with impunity?
Well, Russia has largely occupied those lands with special forces and $$ for more than a decade, and Russia is a piece of shlt country that intentionally destroys civilian targets with no care because all they know is strong arm/fear tactics. They are a nation of suffering that knows nothing more than to try to make others suffer if they can't have their way. Ukraine has suffered from it, but it's only hardened their resolve.
If Ukraine was 'winning' they would have pushed Russian forces out of eastern Ukraine by now .
If Ukraine was 'winning' Russian missiles would not be raining down on Ukrainian civilians and infrastructure on a daily basis .
If Russia was "winning" they wouldn't have lost 3-5x what Ukraine has lost in this "special operation" and they wouldn't have nearly had a coup, and they wouldn't be resorting to launching missiles at civilians without remorse. They have no momentum, have exhausted much of their "hinterland" troops and are about to have to start scooping up Moscow/St Pete kids for the meat grinder, and don't have the capability to produce enough weaponry to keep up going forward. They are a pariah nation that has literally chosen to risk their entire standing in the world for the Imperial whims of yesteryear of a diminutive tyrant. Well done VVP.
None of this subjective narrative explains how a country getting hammered by missiles everyday is 'winning' a war when millions of its citizens have found it necessary to flee into neighboring countries .
Ukraine simply cannot continue to exist with its infrastructure indefinitely pounded from the air .
Simply can't continue to have millions of its citizens fleeing abroad.
Russia can play this game for years , Ukraine can't .
Israel gets hit by Rockets all the time…
Out of a total population of less than 32 million. Do the bloody math kiddo.
In addition the south was economically annihilated. Took almost a century for the region to recover.
All over the issue of slavery and the economic value they respresented .
Anything else put forward as a 'reason' for the war is mere window dressing .
The British Empire abolished slavery long before 1860.
With COMPENSATION for all the slave owners.
Under another century of British guidance the civil war is avoided.
The Spanish American War is avoided.
We don't invade the Philippines, Puerto Rico, a host of central American countries.
The tragic slaughter of Native Americans and American settlers is greatly reduced.
Howver extremely limitted individuals like your self have no capacity to think outside the box.
Which is way you don't have the best of lifestyles.
Lifestyles?? Bend over and get railed by your dog you ignorant sack of shlt.
LOL, I realized long ago you don't have the confidence or experience for rational exchanges.
However it amusus me to occaisionally waste a few minutes attempting to educate the terminally stupid.
Last 'pearl' for you:
Compare the histories of the United States and Canada since 1783.
Compare the respective wars, political strife, RACIAL strife, international 'police actions'.
Compare the quality of life of the two countries.
There is a clear winner.
The US is the clear winner in every regard. Hands down. Unless you are a socialist wannabe fake acto on the world stage. How much time have you spent in Canada?
Confidence/experience??? Lol, ok.
Guess that is some small sign of hope for you .
The US is the winner ? LOL . In what body bags getting delivered from oversea 'police actions' ?
There are at least 12 major US cities that have degenerated into total hell holes. Mass murders are a monthly event, racial strife is commonplace. The US is hated by most of Asia, the Middle East, the Far East, central America, and much of South America.
Who hates Canadians ? No one.
How much time have I spent in Canada ? Years.
Who loves Canadians? Canadians and the Dutch?
Racial strife in everyday America is much less a daily thing than the media promotes. Good luck getting a surgery you need in Canada, unless you're willing to wait until you're damn near dead to do it.
Want to protest Covid in Canada???? Better be ready to have your bank account cancelled.
Yeah. Canada is a ****ing dreamland (it is for vacationing Americans).
Incredibly weak response BTW. Even you must reaiize it at some level.
Keeping this short as your time limit is up.
Quality of life in Canada is consistently ranked far above that of the US.
Newsflash for you Einstein; there are reasons for it.
Mr Old Bear,Oldbear83 said:
"The US is hated by most of Asia, the Middle East, the Far East, central America, and much of South America."
80% of that statement is BS.
For one thing, all the people immigrating to the US from those places is fair proof you are wrong.
Also, a statement like that indicates you don't have friends in those parts of the world.
Sure, they hate our politicians, but our politicians are better than most of what you will find in the rest of the world. And American music, films and products are prized worldwide. Even our cars aren't crap anymore!
I have had the good fortune to travel throughout much of the world. I can assure you most places Americans are merely tolerated at best.
OK, I haven't spent much time in Asia or the Far East.
But do you really think the Chinese, North Koreans, Indians, Vietnamese, Russians
Laotians and Japanese have non existent memories ?
LOL Really believe the rest of the world appreciates US bombings thoughout the planet over the last 60 years ?