ATL Bear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feint

If it had been Putin's intention to take Kiev, it would have happened.

Quote:

---

Ukraine was neutral as a deliberate policy before being invaded (twice), the US/Europe were even extremely reluctant to supply Ukraine with useful military aid packages out of deference for Russia. That's over now, because it is abundantly clear that Russia's word isn't worth the hot air they spent to give it.

---

Nonsense. We sponsored a coup there in Maidan. NATO membership for Ukraine has been a constant Democrat/Neocon talking point.

https://rumble.com/vwxxi8-ukraine-on-fire.html

Some people act like Vladimir Putin woke up one morning in 2022 and decided to invade Ukraine for no reason. Whatever you think about him, he isn't an irrational risk taker.

---

Oh boy…

---

Who can really know what Putin would or what not do (he is old, age 70, and some reports say he is already suffering from dementia)

But let's not pretend Victoria Nuland and the State Department (probably CIA as well) were not all over the 2014 Ukrainian coup/protests/revolution.

---

Putin and his cronies have been invading and plundering Ukraine since 2002. The focus on 2014 is America hating virtue signaling. Keep the excuses coming, and keep defending "Mr Rational".

---

Yes, who would have thought that after interfering in China, Italy, Greece, the Philippines, Korea, Albania, Germany, Iran, Guatemala, Costa Rica, Syria, Indonesia, Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, Haiti, Algeria, Ecuador, the Congo, Brazil, Peru, the Dominican Republic, Cuba, East Timor, Ghana, Uruguay, Chile, Bolivia, Iraq, Angola, Zaire, Jamaica, Grenada, Morocco, Libya, Nicaragua, Panama, Bulgaria, El Salvador, and Afghanistan, the CIA would...suddenly decide to interfere in Ukraine.

Can't be anything but anti-American virtue signaling.

---

The irony of this idiotic reply is a majority of that list was countering Russian interference including Ukraine. Keep waving those Russki pom poms!

---

Thanks for at least admitting the fact of our involvement. I'll leave you to wallow in your rationalizations.

ATL Bear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feint

If it had been Putin's intention to take Kiev, it would have happened.

Quote:

---

Ukraine was neutral as a deliberate policy before being invaded (twice), the US/Europe were even extremely reluctant to supply Ukraine with useful military aid packages out of deference for Russia. That's over now, because it is abundantly clear that Russia's word isn't worth the hot air they spent to give it.

---

Nonsense. We sponsored a coup there in Maidan. NATO membership for Ukraine has been a constant Democrat/Neocon talking point.

https://rumble.com/vwxxi8-ukraine-on-fire.html

Some people act like Vladimir Putin woke up one morning in 2022 and decided to invade Ukraine for no reason. Whatever you think about him, he isn't an irrational risk taker.

---

Oh boy…

---

Who can really know what Putin would or what not do (he is old, age 70, and some reports say he is already suffering from dementia)

But let's not pretend Victoria Nuland and the State Department (probably CIA as well) were not all over the 2014 Ukrainian coup/protests/revolution.

---

Putin and his cronies have been invading and plundering Ukraine since 2002. The focus on 2014 is America hating virtue signaling. Keep the excuses coming, and keep defending "Mr Rational".

---

Yes, who would have thought that after interfering in China, Italy, Greece, the Philippines, Korea, Albania, Germany, Iran, Guatemala, Costa Rica, Syria, Indonesia, Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, Haiti, Algeria, Ecuador, the Congo, Brazil, Peru, the Dominican Republic, Cuba, East Timor, Ghana, Uruguay, Chile, Bolivia, Iraq, Angola, Zaire, Jamaica, Grenada, Morocco, Libya, Nicaragua, Panama, Bulgaria, El Salvador, and Afghanistan, the CIA would...suddenly decide to interfere in Ukraine.

Can't be anything but anti-American virtue signaling.

---

The irony of this idiotic reply is a majority of that list was countering Russian interference including Ukraine.

---

1. The old USSR was not the modern Russian Federation.

The whole collapse of the USSR and end of the Soviet Communist party would be a major sign of that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Party_of_the_Soviet_Union

This whole idea that the Moscow ruling government in 1970 is the same as Moscow government in 2023....its a lot like saying Berlin ruling government in 1933 is the same as the Berlin government in 1993.

Different regimes, different ideology, completely different make up of the State and nation, etc.

2. As far as interference in Ukraine specifically (then and now)...well that is just something that is always going to happen when its on your borders.

Russia (as a State) has long term geo-political interests in Ukraine that are not ever going away....they have been involved in Ukraine since the 1600s under lots of different types of governments (Czarist, provisional Republican, Bolshevik/Communist, and now Russian nationalist)

The question is not "why is Moscow interfering in the internal politics of Ukraine" the real question is "why is Washington interfering in the internal politics of Ukraine"

Redbrickbear said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feint

If it had been Putin's intention to take Kiev, it would have happened.

Quote:

---

Ukraine was neutral as a deliberate policy before being invaded (twice), the US/Europe were even extremely reluctant to supply Ukraine with useful military aid packages out of deference for Russia. That's over now, because it is abundantly clear that Russia's word isn't worth the hot air they spent to give it.

---

Nonsense. We sponsored a coup there in Maidan. NATO membership for Ukraine has been a constant Democrat/Neocon talking point.

https://rumble.com/vwxxi8-ukraine-on-fire.html

Some people act like Vladimir Putin woke up one morning in 2022 and decided to invade Ukraine for no reason. Whatever you think about him, he isn't an irrational risk taker.

---

Oh boy…

---

Who can really know what Putin would or what not do (he is old, age 70, and some reports say he is already suffering from dementia)

But let's not pretend Victoria Nuland and the State Department (probably CIA as well) were not all over the 2014 Ukrainian coup/protests/revolution.

---

Putin and his cronies have been invading and plundering Ukraine since 2002. The focus on 2014 is America hating virtue signaling. Keep the excuses coming, and keep defending "Mr Rational".

---

Yes, who would have thought that after interfering in China, Italy, Greece, the Philippines, Korea, Albania, Germany, Iran, Guatemala, Costa Rica, Syria, Indonesia, Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, Haiti, Algeria, Ecuador, the Congo, Brazil, Peru, the Dominican Republic, Cuba, East Timor, Ghana, Uruguay, Chile, Bolivia, Iraq, Angola, Zaire, Jamaica, Grenada, Morocco, Libya, Nicaragua, Panama, Bulgaria, El Salvador, and Afghanistan, the CIA would...suddenly decide to interfere in Ukraine.

Can't be anything but anti-American virtue signaling.

---

The irony of this idiotic reply is a majority of that list was countering Russian interference including Ukraine.

---

1. The old USSR was not the modern Russian Federation.

The whole collapse of the USSR and end of the Soviet Communist party would be a major sign of that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Party_of_the_Soviet_Union
But with respect to geopolitics, everything is the same. the traditional routes to invade Russia remain the same. The parts of the map Russia wants to own/control to defend against that are the same. The parts of the map Russia wants to control to threaten Europe and generate leverage in future negotiations have not changed. Geopolitically speaking, NOTHING has changed, except that Russia lost a lot of geopolitical position and desperately wants it back.

This whole idea that the Moscow ruling government in 1970 is the same as Moscow government in 2023....its a lot like saying Berlin ruling government in 1933 is the same as the Berlin government in 1993.

Different regimes, different ideology, completely different make up of the State and nation, etc.
See above. Some things never change.

2. As far as interference in Ukraine specifically (then and now)...well that is just something that is always going to happen when its on your borders.

Russia (as a State) has long term geo-political interests in Ukraine that are not ever going away....they have been involved in Ukraine since the 1600s under lots of different types of governments (Czarist, provisional Republican, Bolshevik/Communist, and now Russian nationalist)

The question is not "why is Moscow interfering in the internal politics of Ukraine" the real question is "why is Washington interfering in the internal politics of Ukraine"
Helping a sovereign nation deal with interference of a third party is not exactly "interfereing in the internal politics" of said country.

---

Russia is not entitled to own or control Ukraine. It certainly can try. And if it has the power to so, it will. But it does not. We are not obligated to stand by and let Russia do what it wants, particularly not when such threatens Nato members, which it does.

The argument you should be making is that we have no business in Nato. As long as we ARE in Nato, we have direct interest in how geopolitical events affect the national security of EVERY Nato member, because we have a treaty obligation to defend them. And a nuclear capable nation invading with 150k troops the largest country in Europe to subsume it into the Russian system is completely and utterly intolerable. It allows Russian forces and nuclear weapons to advance 900 miles closer to every Nato capitol. Cannot be allowed to happen. Nato response thus far has been almost irresponsibly modest, given the magnitude of the provocation.

It really is that simple. Russia is a declining power. We do not need to prop them up by letting the feed off of their neighbors.

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feint

If it had been Putin's intention to take Kiev, it would have happened.

Quote:

---

Ukraine was neutral as a deliberate policy before being invaded (twice), the US/Europe were even extremely reluctant to supply Ukraine with useful military aid packages out of deference for Russia. That's over now, because it is abundantly clear that Russia's word isn't worth the hot air they spent to give it.

---

Nonsense. We sponsored a coup there in Maidan. NATO membership for Ukraine has been a constant Democrat/Neocon talking point.

https://rumble.com/vwxxi8-ukraine-on-fire.html

Some people act like Vladimir Putin woke up one morning in 2022 and decided to invade Ukraine for no reason. Whatever you think about him, he isn't an irrational risk taker.

---

Oh boy…

---

Who can really know what Putin would or what not do (he is old, age 70, and some reports say he is already suffering from dementia)

But let's not pretend Victoria Nuland and the State Department (probably CIA as well) were not all over the 2014 Ukrainian coup/protests/revolution.

---

Putin and his cronies have been invading and plundering Ukraine since 2002. The focus on 2014 is America hating virtue signaling. Keep the excuses coming, and keep defending "Mr Rational".

---

Yes, who would have thought that after interfering in China, Italy, Greece, the Philippines, Korea, Albania, Germany, Iran, Guatemala, Costa Rica, Syria, Indonesia, Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, Haiti, Algeria, Ecuador, the Congo, Brazil, Peru, the Dominican Republic, Cuba, East Timor, Ghana, Uruguay, Chile, Bolivia, Iraq, Angola, Zaire, Jamaica, Grenada, Morocco, Libya, Nicaragua, Panama, Bulgaria, El Salvador, and Afghanistan, the CIA would...suddenly decide to interfere in Ukraine.

Can't be anything but anti-American virtue signaling.

---

The irony of this idiotic reply is a majority of that list was countering Russian interference including Ukraine.

---

1. The old USSR was not the modern Russian Federation.

The whole collapse of the USSR and end of the Soviet Communist party would be a major sign of that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Party_of_the_Soviet_Union
But with respect to geopolitics, everything is the same. the traditional routes to invade Russia remain the same. The parts of the map Russia wants to own/control to defend against that are the same. The parts of the map Russia wants to control to threaten Europe and generate leverage in future negotiations have not changed. Geopolitically speaking, NOTHING has changed, except that Russia lost a lot of geopolitical position and desperately wants it back.

This whole idea that the Moscow ruling government in 1970 is the same as Moscow government in 2023....its a lot like saying Berlin ruling government in 1933 is the same as the Berlin government in 1993.

Different regimes, different ideology, completely different make up of the State and nation, etc.
See above. Some things never change.

2. As far as interference in Ukraine specifically (then and now)...well that is just something that is always going to happen when its on your borders.

Russia (as a State) has long term geo-political interests in Ukraine that are not ever going away....they have been involved in Ukraine since the 1600s under lots of different types of governments (Czarist, provisional Republican, Bolshevik/Communist, and now Russian nationalist)

The question is not "why is Moscow interfering in the internal politics of Ukraine" the real question is "why is Washington interfering in the internal politics of Ukraine"
Helping a sovereign nation deal with interference of a third party is not exactly "interfereing in the internal politics" of said country.

---

Russia is not entitled to own or control Ukraine. It certainly can try. And if it has the power to so, it will. But it does not. We are not obligated to stand by and let Russia do what it wants,

---

Agree, but we are also not obligated to interfere and get involved.

But it does not matter in the end. At some point Washington will get bored with far away wars in Donbas and other places. There is money to be made here at home raping the American taxpayer and running political scams.

The Washington ruling class will becoming weary of this conflict and turn their eyes to other projects...even if its a decade into the future.

Moscow (whatever regime is in power) will never get tired or lose interest in Kyiv. Its a vital geo-political issue for them. As long as Russia exists as a state it will be right next door and involved.

Just like how no one can outlast Washington in being interested in Mexico or Canada. No one can out last Moscow.

ATL Bear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feint

If it had been Putin's intention to take Kiev, it would have happened.

Quote:

---

Ukraine was neutral as a deliberate policy before being invaded (twice), the US/Europe were even extremely reluctant to supply Ukraine with useful military aid packages out of deference for Russia. That's over now, because it is abundantly clear that Russia's word isn't worth the hot air they spent to give it.

---

Nonsense. We sponsored a coup there in Maidan. NATO membership for Ukraine has been a constant Democrat/Neocon talking point.

https://rumble.com/vwxxi8-ukraine-on-fire.html

Some people act like Vladimir Putin woke up one morning in 2022 and decided to invade Ukraine for no reason. Whatever you think about him, he isn't an irrational risk taker.

---

Oh boy…

---

Who can really know what Putin would or what not do (he is old, age 70, and some reports say he is already suffering from dementia)

But let's not pretend Victoria Nuland and the State Department (probably CIA as well) were not all over the 2014 Ukrainian coup/protests/revolution.

---

Putin and his cronies have been invading and plundering Ukraine since 2002. The focus on 2014 is America hating virtue signaling. Keep the excuses coming, and keep defending "Mr Rational".

---

Yes, who would have thought that after interfering in China, Italy, Greece, the Philippines, Korea, Albania, Germany, Iran, Guatemala, Costa Rica, Syria, Indonesia, Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, Haiti, Algeria, Ecuador, the Congo, Brazil, Peru, the Dominican Republic, Cuba, East Timor, Ghana, Uruguay, Chile, Bolivia, Iraq, Angola, Zaire, Jamaica, Grenada, Morocco, Libya, Nicaragua, Panama, Bulgaria, El Salvador, and Afghanistan, the CIA would...suddenly decide to interfere in Ukraine.

Can't be anything but anti-American virtue signaling.

---

The irony of this idiotic reply is a majority of that list was countering Russian interference including Ukraine.

---

1. The old USSR was not the modern Russian Federation.

The whole collapse of the USSR and end of the Soviet Communist party would be a major sign of that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Party_of_the_Soviet_Union

This whole idea that the Moscow ruling government in 1970 is the same as Moscow government in 2023....its a lot like saying Berlin ruling government in 1933 is the same as the Berlin government in 1993.

Different regimes, different ideology, completely different make up of the State and nation, etc.

2. As far as interference in Ukraine specifically (then and now)...well that is just something that is always going to happen when its on your borders.

Russia (as a State) has long term geo-political interests in Ukraine that are not ever going away....they have been involved in Ukraine since the 1600s under lots of different types of governments (Czarist, provisional Republican, Bolshevik/Communist, and now Russian nationalist)

The question is not "why is Moscow interfering in the internal politics of Ukraine" the real question is "why is Washington interfering in the internal politics of Ukraine"

---

Those questions have been answered ad nauseum. You just refuse to acknowledge the geopolitical realities and instead focus on some Russian zeitgeist claim.

---

And yet the answers have never been compelling.

The USA has no major geo-strategic interests east of the Bug river.

Russia does.

The USA is not under military threat from a poor & incompetent Russian army....neither are our NATO allies....and the USA and its NATO allies would easily crush the Russian military if a conflict broke out.

Russia does feel threated...and is

None of the answers for why Victoria Nuland is allowed to run around Kyiv are very good ones.

Go read Peter Hitchens....he asks the same questions and is still waiting for a good response.

sombear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feint

If it had been Putin's intention to take Kiev, it would have happened.

Quote:

---

Ukraine was neutral as a deliberate policy before being invaded (twice), the US/Europe were even extremely reluctant to supply Ukraine with useful military aid packages out of deference for Russia. That's over now, because it is abundantly clear that Russia's word isn't worth the hot air they spent to give it.

---

Nonsense. We sponsored a coup there in Maidan. NATO membership for Ukraine has been a constant Democrat/Neocon talking point.

https://rumble.com/vwxxi8-ukraine-on-fire.html

Some people act like Vladimir Putin woke up one morning in 2022 and decided to invade Ukraine for no reason. Whatever you think about him, he isn't an irrational risk taker.

---

Oh boy…

---

Who can really know what Putin would or what not do (he is old, age 70, and some reports say he is already suffering from dementia)

But let's not pretend Victoria Nuland and the State Department (probably CIA as well) were not all over the 2014 Ukrainian coup/protests/revolution.

---

Putin and his cronies have been invading and plundering Ukraine since 2002. The focus on 2014 is America hating virtue signaling. Keep the excuses coming, and keep defending "Mr Rational".

---

Yes, who would have thought that after interfering in China, Italy, Greece, the Philippines, Korea, Albania, Germany, Iran, Guatemala, Costa Rica, Syria, Indonesia, Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, Haiti, Algeria, Ecuador, the Congo, Brazil, Peru, the Dominican Republic, Cuba, East Timor, Ghana, Uruguay, Chile, Bolivia, Iraq, Angola, Zaire, Jamaica, Grenada, Morocco, Libya, Nicaragua, Panama, Bulgaria, El Salvador, and Afghanistan, the CIA would...suddenly decide to interfere in Ukraine.

Can't be anything but anti-American virtue signaling.

---

The irony of this idiotic reply is a majority of that list was countering Russian interference including Ukraine.

---

1. The old USSR was not the modern Russian Federation.

The whole collapse of the USSR and end of the Soviet Communist party would be a major sign of that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Party_of_the_Soviet_Union

This whole idea that the Moscow ruling government in 1970 is the same as Moscow government in 2023....its a lot like saying Berlin ruling government in 1933 is the same as the Berlin government in 1993.

Different regimes, different ideology, completely different make up of the State and nation, etc.

2. As far as interference in Ukraine specifically (then and now)...well that is just something that is always going to happen when its on your borders.

Russia (as a State) has long term geo-political interests in Ukraine that are not ever going away....they have been involved in Ukraine since the 1600s under lots of different types of governments (Czarist, provisional Republican, Bolshevik/Communist, and now Russian nationalist)

The question is not "why is Moscow interfering in the internal politics of Ukraine" the real question is "why is Washington interfering in the internal politics of Ukraine"

---

Those questions have been answered ad nauseum. You just refuse to acknowledge the geopolitical realities and instead focus on some Russian zeitgeist claim.

---

And yet the answers have never been compelling.

The USA has no major geo-strategic interests east of the Bug river.

Russia does.

The USA is not under military threat from a poor & incompetent Russian army....neither are our NATO allies....and the USA and its NATO allies would easily crush the Russian military if a conflict broke out.

Russia does feel threated...and is

None of the answers for why Victoria Nuland is allowed to run around Kyiv are very good ones.

Go read Peter Hitchens....he asks the same questions and is still waiting for a good response.

---

Russia is a major adversary to us worldwide.

Limiting Russia's reach and strength is our direct interest as is helping democracies.

Correct, Russia is not going to attack us directly, and we know that. But the flip side is true also. Despite the protestations of the Putin apologists, Russia knows neither the U.S. nor NATO is going to directly attack it.

Putin and his cronies have been very clear about why it invaded Ukraine both recent times. If only we'd listen. It is trying as best it can to reconstitute the empire. It has never accepted Ukraine as a nation separate from Russia. It abhors Ukrainians. It wants Ukraine's resources.

Nuland has become the Haliburton of the gulf war. Reflexive retort . . . Nuland!

---

To that excellent response I woujd only add this: ending our involvement in Ukraine will have no impact on the fleecing of the taxpayer. "….the road goes on forever and the party never ends…"

we are getting more of our money's worth in Ukraine than in most other boondoggles ongoing at this moment. We are grinding into scrap metal the army of China's most powerful ally.

whiterock said:

---

sombear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feint

If it had been Putin's intention to take Kiev, it would have happened.

Quote:

---

Ukraine was neutral as a deliberate policy before being invaded (twice), the US/Europe were even extremely reluctant to supply Ukraine with useful military aid packages out of deference for Russia. That's over now, because it is abundantly clear that Russia's word isn't worth the hot air they spent to give it.

---

Nonsense. We sponsored a coup there in Maidan. NATO membership for Ukraine has been a constant Democrat/Neocon talking point.

https://rumble.com/vwxxi8-ukraine-on-fire.html

Some people act like Vladimir Putin woke up one morning in 2022 and decided to invade Ukraine for no reason. Whatever you think about him, he isn't an irrational risk taker.

---

Oh boy…

---

Who can really know what Putin would or what not do (he is old, age 70, and some reports say he is already suffering from dementia)

But let's not pretend Victoria Nuland and the State Department (probably CIA as well) were not all over the 2014 Ukrainian coup/protests/revolution.

---

Putin and his cronies have been invading and plundering Ukraine since 2002. The focus on 2014 is America hating virtue signaling. Keep the excuses coming, and keep defending "Mr Rational".

---

Yes, who would have thought that after interfering in China, Italy, Greece, the Philippines, Korea, Albania, Germany, Iran, Guatemala, Costa Rica, Syria, Indonesia, Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, Haiti, Algeria, Ecuador, the Congo, Brazil, Peru, the Dominican Republic, Cuba, East Timor, Ghana, Uruguay, Chile, Bolivia, Iraq, Angola, Zaire, Jamaica, Grenada, Morocco, Libya, Nicaragua, Panama, Bulgaria, El Salvador, and Afghanistan, the CIA would...suddenly decide to interfere in Ukraine.

Can't be anything but anti-American virtue signaling.

---

The irony of this idiotic reply is a majority of that list was countering Russian interference including Ukraine.

---

1. The old USSR was not the modern Russian Federation.

The whole collapse of the USSR and end of the Soviet Communist party would be a major sign of that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Party_of_the_Soviet_Union

This whole idea that the Moscow ruling government in 1970 is the same as Moscow government in 2023....its a lot like saying Berlin ruling government in 1933 is the same as the Berlin government in 1993.

Different regimes, different ideology, completely different make up of the State and nation, etc.

2. As far as interference in Ukraine specifically (then and now)...well that is just something that is always going to happen when its on your borders.

Russia (as a State) has long term geo-political interests in Ukraine that are not ever going away....they have been involved in Ukraine since the 1600s under lots of different types of governments (Czarist, provisional Republican, Bolshevik/Communist, and now Russian nationalist)

The question is not "why is Moscow interfering in the internal politics of Ukraine" the real question is "why is Washington interfering in the internal politics of Ukraine"

---

Those questions have been answered ad nauseum. You just refuse to acknowledge the geopolitical realities and instead focus on some Russian zeitgeist claim.

---

And yet the answers have never been compelling.

The USA has no major geo-strategic interests east of the Bug river.

Russia does.

The USA is not under military threat from a poor & incompetent Russian army....neither are our NATO allies....and the USA and its NATO allies would easily crush the Russian military if a conflict broke out.

Russia does feel threated...and is

None of the answers for why Victoria Nuland is allowed to run around Kyiv are very good ones.

Go read Peter Hitchens....he asks the same questions and is still waiting for a good response.

---

Russia is a major adversary to us worldwide.

Limiting Russia's reach and strength is our direct interest as is helping democracies.

Correct, Russia is not going to attack us directly, and we know that. But the flip side is true also. Despite the protestations of the Putin apologists, Russia knows neither the U.S. nor NATO is going to directly attack it.

Putin and his cronies have been very clear about why it invaded Ukraine both recent times. If only we'd listen. It is trying as best it can to reconstitute the empire. It has never accepted Ukraine as a nation separate from Russia. It abhors Ukrainians. It wants Ukraine's resources.

Nuland has become the Haliburton of the gulf war. Reflexive retort . . . Nuland!

---

To that excellent response I woujd only add this: ending our involvement in Ukraine will have no impact on the fleecing of the taxpayer. "….the road goes on forever and the party never ends…"

we are getting more of our money's worth in Ukraine than in most other boondoggles ongoing at this moment. We are grinding into scrap metal the army of China's most powerful ally.

---

Ukraine is not a powerful ally of China or anyone else.

Wonder how many more Ukranians were killed last week in Biden's proxy war with Russia ? How many more crippled for life, how many more had their homes destroyed ?

All so Ukraine could accept US prodding to join NATO.

The same NATO that, just 2 months ago, turned down even the prospect of Ukranian membership into their organization.

Don't look too closely into US meddling all you internet soldiers.

Might force you to finally accept all the Ukranian blood on our hands.

KaiBear said:

---

Wonder how many more Ukranians were killed last week in Biden's proxy war with Russia ? How many more crippled for life, how many more had their homes destroyed ?

All so Ukraine could accept US prodding to join NATO.

The same NATO that, just 2 months ago, turned down even the prospect of Ukranian membership into their organization.

Don't look too closely into US meddling all you internet soldiers.

Might force you to finally accept all the Ukranian blood on our hands.

---

A lot of deeply "special" takes in this post. You're something else.

KaiBear said:

---

Wonder how many more Ukranians were killed last week in Biden's proxy war with Russia ? How many more crippled for life, how many more had their homes destroyed ?

All so Ukraine could accept US prodding to join NATO.

The same NATO that, just 2 months ago, turned down even the prospect of Ukranian membership into their organization.

Don't look too closely into US meddling all you internet soldiers.

Might force you to finally accept all the Ukranian blood on our hands.

---

95% of Ukrainians support the total war effort. Quite elitist of you to suggest we're making/forcing their decisions.

KaiBear said:

---

Wonder how many more Ukranians were killed last week in Biden's proxy war with Russia ? How many more crippled for life, how many more had their homes destroyed ?

All so Ukraine could accept US prodding to join NATO.

The same NATO that, just 2 months ago, turned down even the prospect of Ukranian membership into their organization.

Don't look too closely into US meddling all you internet soldiers.

Might force you to finally accept all the Ukranian blood on our hands.

---

I know you are a moron but didn't realize you actually don't realize Russian sends Ukrainians off to death regardless of what side they are on...and always has

sombear said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

Wonder how many more Ukranians were killed last week in Biden's proxy war with Russia ? How many more crippled for life, how many more had their homes destroyed ?

All so Ukraine could accept US prodding to join NATO.

The same NATO that, just 2 months ago, turned down even the prospect of Ukranian membership into their organization.

Don't look too closely into US meddling all you internet soldiers.

Might force you to finally accept all the Ukranian blood on our hands.

---

95% of Ukrainians support the total war effort. Quite elitist of you to suggest we're making/forcing their decisions.

---

You can not possibly know that.....hell Ukraine is not even allowed to have elections right now by the Regime in Kyiv.

We have zero idea what average Ukrainians thinks about total war or about being bayonet marched into conscription.

Maybe vast majorities support the total war...maybe they don't

It benefits Washington to put out the narrative that average Ukrainians really want to fight this war...the same as how it benefits Moscow to put out the narrative that average Russians want to fight this war.

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

Wonder how many more Ukranians were killed last week in Biden's proxy war with Russia ? How many more crippled for life, how many more had their homes destroyed ?

All so Ukraine could accept US prodding to join NATO.

The same NATO that, just 2 months ago, turned down even the prospect of Ukranian membership into their organization.

Don't look too closely into US meddling all you internet soldiers.

Might force you to finally accept all the Ukranian blood on our hands.

---

95% of Ukrainians support the total war effort. Quite elitist of you to suggest we're making/forcing their decisions.

---

You can not possibly know that.....hell Ukraine is not even allowed to have elections right now by the Regime in Kyiv.

We have zero idea what average Ukrainians thinks about total war or about being bayonet marched into conscription.

Maybe vast majorities support the total war...maybe they don't

It benefits Washington to put out the narrative that average Ukrainians really want to fight this war...the same as how it benefits Moscow to put out the narrative that average Russians want to fight this war.

---

There is plenty of evidence on this, and both are true. A strong majority of Ukrainians and Russians support the war, though higher in Ukraine.

sombear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

Wonder how many more Ukranians were killed last week in Biden's proxy war with Russia ? How many more crippled for life, how many more had their homes destroyed ?

All so Ukraine could accept US prodding to join NATO.

The same NATO that, just 2 months ago, turned down even the prospect of Ukranian membership into their organization.

Don't look too closely into US meddling all you internet soldiers.

Might force you to finally accept all the Ukranian blood on our hands.

---

95% of Ukrainians support the total war effort. Quite elitist of you to suggest we're making/forcing their decisions.

---

You can not possibly know that.....hell Ukraine is not even allowed to have elections right now by the Regime in Kyiv.

We have zero idea what average Ukrainians thinks about total war or about being bayonet marched into conscription.

Maybe vast majorities support the total war...maybe they don't

It benefits Washington to put out the narrative that average Ukrainians really want to fight this war...the same as how it benefits Moscow to put out the narrative that average Russians want to fight this war.

---

There is plenty of evidence on this, and both are true. A strong majority of Ukrainians and Russians support the war, though higher in Ukraine.

---

You named a number....95%

You can't know that and it would be better if you just acknowledged that it is a percentage you pulled out of your butt.

There are lots of young fighting age men trying to get out of both Ukraine and Russia (to avoid this fight) and flee to the other places.

I would be willing to bet my whole life savings that you can't get 95% of Ukrainians to say they support this long war

sombear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Realitybites said:

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feint

If it had been Putin's intention to take Kiev, it would have happened.

Quote:

---

Ukraine was neutral as a deliberate policy before being invaded (twice), the US/Europe were even extremely reluctant to supply Ukraine with useful military aid packages out of deference for Russia. That's over now, because it is abundantly clear that Russia's word isn't worth the hot air they spent to give it.

---

Nonsense. We sponsored a coup there in Maidan. NATO membership for Ukraine has been a constant Democrat/Neocon talking point.

https://rumble.com/vwxxi8-ukraine-on-fire.html

Some people act like Vladimir Putin woke up one morning in 2022 and decided to invade Ukraine for no reason. Whatever you think about him, he isn't an irrational risk taker.

---

Oh boy…

---

Who can really know what Putin would or what not do (he is old, age 70, and some reports say he is already suffering from dementia)

But let's not pretend Victoria Nuland and the State Department (probably CIA as well) were not all over the 2014 Ukrainian coup/protests/revolution.

---

Putin and his cronies have been invading and plundering Ukraine since 2002. The focus on 2014 is America hating virtue signaling. Keep the excuses coming, and keep defending "Mr Rational".

---

Yes, who would have thought that after interfering in China, Italy, Greece, the Philippines, Korea, Albania, Germany, Iran, Guatemala, Costa Rica, Syria, Indonesia, Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, Haiti, Algeria, Ecuador, the Congo, Brazil, Peru, the Dominican Republic, Cuba, East Timor, Ghana, Uruguay, Chile, Bolivia, Iraq, Angola, Zaire, Jamaica, Grenada, Morocco, Libya, Nicaragua, Panama, Bulgaria, El Salvador, and Afghanistan, the CIA would...suddenly decide to interfere in Ukraine.

Can't be anything but anti-American virtue signaling.

---

The irony of this idiotic reply is a majority of that list was countering Russian interference including Ukraine.

---

1. The old USSR was not the modern Russian Federation.

The whole collapse of the USSR and end of the Soviet Communist party would be a major sign of that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Party_of_the_Soviet_Union

This whole idea that the Moscow ruling government in 1970 is the same as Moscow government in 2023....its a lot like saying Berlin ruling government in 1933 is the same as the Berlin government in 1993.

Different regimes, different ideology, completely different make up of the State and nation, etc.

2. As far as interference in Ukraine specifically (then and now)...well that is just something that is always going to happen when its on your borders.

Russia (as a State) has long term geo-political interests in Ukraine that are not ever going away....they have been involved in Ukraine since the 1600s under lots of different types of governments (Czarist, provisional Republican, Bolshevik/Communist, and now Russian nationalist)

The question is not "why is Moscow interfering in the internal politics of Ukraine" the real question is "why is Washington interfering in the internal politics of Ukraine"

---

Those questions have been answered ad nauseum. You just refuse to acknowledge the geopolitical realities and instead focus on some Russian zeitgeist claim.

---

And yet the answers have never been compelling.

The USA has no major geo-strategic interests east of the Bug river.

Russia does.

The USA is not under military threat from a poor & incompetent Russian army....neither are our NATO allies....and the USA and its NATO allies would easily crush the Russian military if a conflict broke out.

Russia does feel threated...and is

None of the answers for why Victoria Nuland is allowed to run around Kyiv are very good ones.

Go read Peter Hitchens....he asks the same questions and is still waiting for a good response.

---

Russia is a major adversary to us worldwide.

Limiting Russia's reach and strength is our direct interest as is helping democracies.

Correct, Russia is not going to attack us directly, and we know that. But the flip side is true also. Despite the protestations of the Putin apologists, Russia knows neither the U.S. nor NATO is going to directly attack it.

Putin and his cronies have been very clear about why it invaded Ukraine both recent times. If only we'd listen. It is trying as best it can to reconstitute the empire. It has never accepted Ukraine as a nation separate from Russia. It abhors Ukrainians. It wants Ukraine's resources.

Nuland has become the Haliburton of the gulf war. Reflexive retort . . . Nuland!

---

Well said.

https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/ukrainealert/beyond-the-counteroffensive-84-of-ukrainians-are-ready-for-a-long-war/

From June. Judging from what actual ones are saying, it hasn't changed much.

(I know, I know, not 95%, so life savings are safe I guess.)

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

Wonder how many more Ukranians were killed last week in Biden's proxy war with Russia ? How many more crippled for life, how many more had their homes destroyed ?

All so Ukraine could accept US prodding to join NATO.

The same NATO that, just 2 months ago, turned down even the prospect of Ukranian membership into their organization.

Don't look too closely into US meddling all you internet soldiers.

Might force you to finally accept all the Ukranian blood on our hands.

---

95% of Ukrainians support the total war effort. Quite elitist of you to suggest we're making/forcing their decisions.

---

You can not possibly know that.....hell Ukraine is not even allowed to have elections right now by the Regime in Kyiv.

We have zero idea what average Ukrainians thinks about total war or about being bayonet marched into conscription.

Maybe vast majorities support the total war...maybe they don't

It benefits Washington to put out the narrative that average Ukrainians really want to fight this war...the same as how it benefits Moscow to put out the narrative that average Russians want to fight this war.

---

There is plenty of evidence on this, and both are true. A strong majority of Ukrainians and Russians support the war, though higher in Ukraine.

---

You named a number....95%

You can't know that and it would be better if you just acknowledged that it is a percentage you pulled out of your butt.

There are lots of young fighting age men trying to get out of both Ukraine and Russia (to avoid this fight) and flee to the other places.

I would be willing to bet my whole life savings that you can't get 95% of Ukrainians to say they support this long war

---

I'm traveling but will try and dig up the info. I thought I posted it recently, two polls showing 90% + support.

sombear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

Wonder how many more Ukranians were killed last week in Biden's proxy war with Russia ? How many more crippled for life, how many more had their homes destroyed ?

All so Ukraine could accept US prodding to join NATO.

The same NATO that, just 2 months ago, turned down even the prospect of Ukranian membership into their organization.

Don't look too closely into US meddling all you internet soldiers.

Might force you to finally accept all the Ukranian blood on our hands.

---

95% of Ukrainians support the total war effort. Quite elitist of you to suggest we're making/forcing their decisions.

---

You can not possibly know that.....hell Ukraine is not even allowed to have elections right now by the Regime in Kyiv.

We have zero idea what average Ukrainians thinks about total war or about being bayonet marched into conscription.

Maybe vast majorities support the total war...maybe they don't

It benefits Washington to put out the narrative that average Ukrainians really want to fight this war...the same as how it benefits Moscow to put out the narrative that average Russians want to fight this war.

---

There is plenty of evidence on this, and both are true. A strong majority of Ukrainians and Russians support the war, though higher in Ukraine.

---

You named a number....95%

You can't know that and it would be better if you just acknowledged that it is a percentage you pulled out of your butt.

There are lots of young fighting age men trying to get out of both Ukraine and Russia (to avoid this fight) and flee to the other places.

I would be willing to bet my whole life savings that you can't get 95% of Ukrainians to say they support this long war

---

I'm traveling but will try and dig up the info. I thought I posted it recently, two polls showing 90% + support.

---

And if they existed…they are full of crap.

Kyiv will not even risk allowing Ukrainians to have a free and fair election.

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

Wonder how many more Ukranians were killed last week in Biden's proxy war with Russia ? How many more crippled for life, how many more had their homes destroyed ?

All so Ukraine could accept US prodding to join NATO.

The same NATO that, just 2 months ago, turned down even the prospect of Ukranian membership into their organization.

Don't look too closely into US meddling all you internet soldiers.

Might force you to finally accept all the Ukranian blood on our hands.

---

95% of Ukrainians support the total war effort. Quite elitist of you to suggest we're making/forcing their decisions.

---

You can not possibly know that.....hell Ukraine is not even allowed to have elections right now by the Regime in Kyiv.

We have zero idea what average Ukrainians thinks about total war or about being bayonet marched into conscription.

Maybe vast majorities support the total war...maybe they don't

It benefits Washington to put out the narrative that average Ukrainians really want to fight this war...the same as how it benefits Moscow to put out the narrative that average Russians want to fight this war.

---

There is plenty of evidence on this, and both are true. A strong majority of Ukrainians and Russians support the war, though higher in Ukraine.

---

You named a number....95%

You can't know that and it would be better if you just acknowledged that it is a percentage you pulled out of your butt.

There are lots of young fighting age men trying to get out of both Ukraine and Russia (to avoid this fight) and flee to the other places.

I would be willing to bet my whole life savings that you can't get 95% of Ukrainians to say they support this long war

---

I'm traveling but will try and dig up the info. I thought I posted it recently, two polls showing 90% + support.

---

And if they existed…they are full of crap.

Kyiv will not even risk allowing Ukrainians to have a free and fair election.

---

My 95% figure was off, which I'll detail later, but I was also wrong about Russia:

July 2023 Russian Field Moscow independent pollster 45% support continuing war
December 2022 Kremlin Internal poll obtained by Meduza, independent news outlet 28% support continuing war
December 2022 Gallup only 44% optimistic about war's effect on economy
October 2022 Levada Center Independent Moscow Researcher 34% support continuing war
November 22 Moscow Higher School of Economics - 45% say war not going according to plan, up from 25% a year earlier. 60% think war was right decision initially, down from 75% a year earlier.

Sam Lowry said:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

1. The old USSR was not the modern Russian Federation.

The whole collapse of the USSR and end of the Soviet Communist party would be a major sign of that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Party_of_the_Soviet_Union

This whole idea that the Moscow ruling government in 1970 is the same as Moscow government in 2023....its a lot like saying Berlin ruling government in 1933 is the same as the Berlin government in 1993.

Different regimes, different ideology, completely different make up of the State and nation, etc.

2. As far as interference in Ukraine specifically (then and now)...well that is just something that is always going to happen when its on your borders.

Russia (as a State) has long term geo-political interests in Ukraine that are not ever going away....they have been involved in Ukraine since the 1600s under lots of different types of governments (Czarist, provisional Republican, Bolshevik/Communist, and now Russian nationalist)

The question is not "why is Moscow interfering in the internal politics of Ukraine" the real question is "why is Washington interfering in the internal politics of Ukraine"

---

Those questions have been answered ad nauseum. You just refuse to acknowledge the geopolitical realities and instead focus on some Russian zeitgeist claim.

---

And yet the answers have never been compelling.

The USA has no major geo-strategic interests east of the Bug river.

Russia does.

The USA is not under military threat from a poor & incompetent Russian army....neither are our NATO allies....and the USA and its NATO allies would easily crush the Russian military if a conflict broke out.

Russia does feel threated...and is

None of the answers for why Victoria Nuland is allowed to run around Kyiv are very good ones.

Go read Peter Hitchens....he asks the same questions and is still waiting for a good response.

---

Russia is a major adversary to us worldwide.

Limiting Russia's reach and strength is our direct interest as is helping democracies.

Correct, Russia is not going to attack us directly, and we know that. But the flip side is true also. Despite the protestations of the Putin apologists, Russia knows neither the U.S. nor NATO is going to directly attack it.

Putin and his cronies have been very clear about why it invaded Ukraine both recent times. If only we'd listen. It is trying as best it can to reconstitute the empire. It has never accepted Ukraine as a nation separate from Russia. It abhors Ukrainians. It wants Ukraine's resources.

Nuland has become the Haliburton of the gulf war. Reflexive retort . . . Nuland!

---

To that excellent response I woujd only add this: ending our involvement in Ukraine will have no impact on the fleecing of the taxpayer. "….the road goes on forever and the party never ends…"

we are getting more of our money's worth in Ukraine than in most other boondoggles ongoing at this moment. We are grinding into scrap metal the army of China's most powerful ally.

---

Ukraine is not a powerful ally of China or anyone else.

---

DIA apparently thinks it'll take 6wks or so longer than I assessed a few posts back

US Defense Intelligence Agency Director of Analysis Trent Maul stated that there is a “realistic possibility” that Ukrainian forces will break through the entire Russian defense in southern #Ukraine by the end of 2023, while a Ukrainian source suggested that upcoming Russian… https://t.co/LKERHGUdfi

— ISW (@TheStudyofWar) September 8, 2023

KaiBear said:

---

Wonder how many more Ukranians were killed last week in Biden's proxy war with Russia ? How many more crippled for life, how many more had their homes destroyed ?
If the Ukrainians are willing to spill their own blood for freedom, why would we propose to overrule them?

All so Ukraine could accept US prodding to join NATO.
USA is hardly the only country entertaining Ukrainian membership in NATO. It's a consensus within NATO- SecyGen has talked about it openly. Poland and others are pressing hard (as it would benefit them most).

The same NATO that, just 2 months ago, turned down even the prospect of Ukranian membership into their organization.
Nato has put them on the pathway to partner status, which is the stepping stone to membership.

Don't look too closely into US meddling all you internet soldiers.
Helping someone who wants desperately to remain free of foreign interference is "meddling" in their affairs?

Might force you to finally accept all the Ukranian blood on our hands.
No, it's on Russian hands.

---

So many layers of blame America for Russia's transgressions.

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

Wonder how many more Ukranians were killed last week in Biden's proxy war with Russia ? How many more crippled for life, how many more had their homes destroyed ?

All so Ukraine could accept US prodding to join NATO.

The same NATO that, just 2 months ago, turned down even the prospect of Ukranian membership into their organization.

Don't look too closely into US meddling all you internet soldiers.

Might force you to finally accept all the Ukranian blood on our hands.

---

95% of Ukrainians support the total war effort. Quite elitist of you to suggest we're making/forcing their decisions.

---

You can not possibly know that.....hell Ukraine is not even allowed to have elections right now by the Regime in Kyiv.

We have zero idea what average Ukrainians thinks about total war or about being bayonet marched into conscription.

Maybe vast majorities support the total war...maybe they don't

It benefits Washington to put out the narrative that average Ukrainians really want to fight this war...the same as how it benefits Moscow to put out the narrative that average Russians want to fight this war.

---

There is plenty of evidence on this, and both are true. A strong majority of Ukrainians and Russians support the war, though higher in Ukraine.

---

You named a number....95%

You can't know that and it would be better if you just acknowledged that it is a percentage you pulled out of your butt.

There are lots of young fighting age men trying to get out of both Ukraine and Russia (to avoid this fight) and flee to the other places.

I would be willing to bet my whole life savings that you can't get 95% of Ukrainians to say they support this long war

---

The stream of OSINT on this question is remarkably consistent across all sources - the Russian invasion galvanized Ukrainian nationalism, unified Ukrainian and Russian speaking Ukrainians virtually overnight. Consistent and very high support for territorial integrity, winning the war, expelling Russia, etc..... Over and over. Sustained over long periods of time. There seems to be no quit in the Ukrainians. The war has become a crucible that is transforming the soul of their nation in very positive ways, particularly on the question of unity.

https://news.gallup.com/opinion/gallup/471155/charts-russia-ukraine-war.aspx
https://news.gallup.com/poll/403133/ukrainians-support-fighting-until-victory.aspx
https://www.rferl.org/a/ukrainian-unity-identity-poll-russian-invasion/32001348.html
https://www.iri.org/news/iri-ukraine-poll-shows-strong-confidence-in-president-zelensky-a-surge-in-support-for-nato-membership-russia-should-pay-for-reconstruction/
https://news.gallup.com/topic/country-ukr.aspx (Gallup homepage on Ukraine polling).

You can ignore it if you wish, but incredibly high Ukrainian support for the war is a fact which starkly rebukes a key premise of your perspective the War.

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

Wonder how many more Ukranians were killed last week in Biden's proxy war with Russia ? How many more crippled for life, how many more had their homes destroyed ?

All so Ukraine could accept US prodding to join NATO.

The same NATO that, just 2 months ago, turned down even the prospect of Ukranian membership into their organization.

Don't look too closely into US meddling all you internet soldiers.

Might force you to finally accept all the Ukranian blood on our hands.

---

95% of Ukrainians support the total war effort. Quite elitist of you to suggest we're making/forcing their decisions.

---

You can not possibly know that.....hell Ukraine is not even allowed to have elections right now by the Regime in Kyiv.

We have zero idea what average Ukrainians thinks about total war or about being bayonet marched into conscription.

Maybe vast majorities support the total war...maybe they don't

It benefits Washington to put out the narrative that average Ukrainians really want to fight this war...the same as how it benefits Moscow to put out the narrative that average Russians want to fight this war.

---

There is plenty of evidence on this, and both are true. A strong majority of Ukrainians and Russians support the war, though higher in Ukraine.

---

You named a number....95%

You can't know that and it would be better if you just acknowledged that it is a percentage you pulled out of your butt.

There are lots of young fighting age men trying to get out of both Ukraine and Russia (to avoid this fight) and flee to the other places.

I would be willing to bet my whole life savings that you can't get 95% of Ukrainians to say they support this long war

---

The stream of OSINT on this question is remarkably consistent across all sources - the Russian invasion galvanized Ukrainian nationalism, unified Ukrainian and Russian speaking Ukrainians virtually overnight. Consistent and very high support for territorial integrity, winning the war, expelling Russia, etc..... Over and over. Sustained over long periods of time. There seems to be no quit in the Ukrainians. The war has become a crucible that is transforming the soul of their nation in very positive ways, particularly on the question of unity.

https://news.gallup.com/opinion/gallup/471155/charts-russia-ukraine-war.aspx
https://news.gallup.com/poll/403133/ukrainians-support-fighting-until-victory.aspx
https://www.rferl.org/a/ukrainian-unity-identity-poll-russian-invasion/32001348.html
https://www.iri.org/news/iri-ukraine-poll-shows-strong-confidence-in-president-zelensky-a-surge-in-support-for-nato-membership-russia-should-pay-for-reconstruction/
https://news.gallup.com/topic/country-ukr.aspx (Gallup homepage on Ukraine polling).

You can ignore it if you wish, but incredibly high Ukrainian support for the war is a fact which starkly rebukes a key premise of your perspective the War.

---

Great info Whiterock, and you stole some of my thunder, which is great!

High level for those who won't or can't access the links, numerous polls consistently reflect:

- Pro-Russia sentiment in Ukraine is in the low single digits.
- Crazy low % of Ukrainians think NATO-related issues had anything to do with Russia's invasion
- Strong majority believe Putin's reason for invading was to destroy Ukrainian people.
- mid-90s support joining EU and NATO
- Zelensky approvals mid-80s to mid-90s.
- Approval for continued total war effort high 70s to low 90s
- Among those that approve of war effort, low to mid-90s say kick Russia completely out, including annexed portions.
- low 90s believe Ukraine will win
- mid-80s overall say no Russia concessions

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

Wonder how many more Ukranians were killed last week in Biden's proxy war with Russia ? How many more crippled for life, how many more had their homes destroyed ?

All so Ukraine could accept US prodding to join NATO.

The same NATO that, just 2 months ago, turned down even the prospect of Ukranian membership into their organization.

Don't look too closely into US meddling all you internet soldiers.

Might force you to finally accept all the Ukranian blood on our hands.

---

95% of Ukrainians support the total war effort. Quite elitist of you to suggest we're making/forcing their decisions.

---

You can not possibly know that.....hell Ukraine is not even allowed to have elections right now by the Regime in Kyiv.

We have zero idea what average Ukrainians thinks about total war or about being bayonet marched into conscription.

Maybe vast majorities support the total war...maybe they don't

It benefits Washington to put out the narrative that average Ukrainians really want to fight this war...the same as how it benefits Moscow to put out the narrative that average Russians want to fight this war.

---

There is plenty of evidence on this, and both are true. A strong majority of Ukrainians and Russians support the war, though higher in Ukraine.

---

You named a number....95%

You can't know that and it would be better if you just acknowledged that it is a percentage you pulled out of your butt.

There are lots of young fighting age men trying to get out of both Ukraine and Russia (to avoid this fight) and flee to the other places.

I would be willing to bet my whole life savings that you can't get 95% of Ukrainians to say they support this long war

---

The stream of OSINT on this question is remarkably consistent across all sources - the Russian invasion galvanized Ukrainian nationalism, unified Ukrainian and Russian speaking Ukrainians virtually overnight. Consistent and very high support for territorial integrity, winning the war, expelling Russia, etc..... Over and over. Sustained over long periods of time. There seems to be no quit in the Ukrainians. The war has become a crucible that is transforming the soul of their nation in very positive ways, particularly on the question of unity.

https://news.gallup.com/opinion/gallup/471155/charts-russia-ukraine-war.aspx
https://news.gallup.com/poll/403133/ukrainians-support-fighting-until-victory.aspx
https://www.rferl.org/a/ukrainian-unity-identity-poll-russian-invasion/32001348.html
https://www.iri.org/news/iri-ukraine-poll-shows-strong-confidence-in-president-zelensky-a-surge-in-support-for-nato-membership-russia-should-pay-for-reconstruction/
https://news.gallup.com/topic/country-ukr.aspx (Gallup homepage on Ukraine polling).

You can ignore it if you wish, but incredibly high Ukrainian support for the war is a fact which starkly rebukes a key premise of your perspective the War.

---

[Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty (RFE/RL) is a United States government funded media organization that broadcasts…]

Is this the part where we just post articles uncritically from government funded propaganda outfits?

US manipulated this war.

Thousands are now dead because of it.

Yet the clueless internet warriors who have never seen the corpses stack up still think of this horror as some kind of video game.

Yet not a single one of these heroes would ever enlist to fight. Might get their fingernails dirty ( or leg blown off )

And for all this mesage board chatter no one sincerely believes Ukraine can defeat Russia. There is zero chance Ukraine can invade and hold significant parts of Russian territory.

Past time to end this abomination and broker a cease fire.

KaiBear said:

---

US manipulated this war.

Thousands are now dead because of it.

Yet the clueless internet warriors who have never seen the corpses stack up still think of this horror as some kind of video game.

Yet not a single one of these heroes would ever enlist to fight. Might get their fingernails dirty ( or leg blown off )

And for all this mesage board chatter no one sincerely believes Ukraine can defeat Russia. There is zero chance Ukraine can invade and hold significant parts of Russian territory.

Past time to end this abomination and broker a cease fire.

---

"There is zero chance Ukraine can invade and hold significant parts of Russian territory."

What conflict are you following?

sombear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

Wonder how many more Ukranians were killed last week in Biden's proxy war with Russia ? How many more crippled for life, how many more had their homes destroyed ?

All so Ukraine could accept US prodding to join NATO.

The same NATO that, just 2 months ago, turned down even the prospect of Ukranian membership into their organization.

Don't look too closely into US meddling all you internet soldiers.

Might force you to finally accept all the Ukranian blood on our hands.

---

95% of Ukrainians support the total war effort. Quite elitist of you to suggest we're making/forcing their decisions.

---

You can not possibly know that.....hell Ukraine is not even allowed to have elections right now by the Regime in Kyiv.

We have zero idea what average Ukrainians thinks about total war or about being bayonet marched into conscription.

Maybe vast majorities support the total war...maybe they don't

It benefits Washington to put out the narrative that average Ukrainians really want to fight this war...the same as how it benefits Moscow to put out the narrative that average Russians want to fight this war.

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There is plenty of evidence on this, and both are true. A strong majority of Ukrainians and Russians support the war, though higher in Ukraine.

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You named a number....95%

You can't know that and it would be better if you just acknowledged that it is a percentage you pulled out of your butt.

There are lots of young fighting age men trying to get out of both Ukraine and Russia (to avoid this fight) and flee to the other places.

I would be willing to bet my whole life savings that you can't get 95% of Ukrainians to say they support this long war

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The stream of OSINT on this question is remarkably consistent across all sources - the Russian invasion galvanized Ukrainian nationalism, unified Ukrainian and Russian speaking Ukrainians virtually overnight. Consistent and very high support for territorial integrity, winning the war, expelling Russia, etc..... Over and over. Sustained over long periods of time. There seems to be no quit in the Ukrainians. The war has become a crucible that is transforming the soul of their nation in very positive ways, particularly on the question of unity.

https://news.gallup.com/opinion/gallup/471155/charts-russia-ukraine-war.aspx
https://news.gallup.com/poll/403133/ukrainians-support-fighting-until-victory.aspx
https://www.rferl.org/a/ukrainian-unity-identity-poll-russian-invasion/32001348.html
https://www.iri.org/news/iri-ukraine-poll-shows-strong-confidence-in-president-zelensky-a-surge-in-support-for-nato-membership-russia-should-pay-for-reconstruction/
https://news.gallup.com/topic/country-ukr.aspx (Gallup homepage on Ukraine polling).

You can ignore it if you wish, but incredibly high Ukrainian support for the war is a fact which starkly rebukes a key premise of your perspective the War.

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[Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty (RFE/RL) is a United States government funded media organization that broadcasts…]

Is this the part where we just post articles uncritically from government funded propaganda outfits?

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As usual, I suggest reading the article. It's not their poll. They were reporting on a poll conducted by a respected independent pollster that historically has released polls unfavorable to the Ukraine administration.

I think we all agree you take any poll with at least some grain of salt, but all the data is consistent and has been since late 2022.

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That's far from clear. The oldest of those polls was more than a year ago, and the newest was months before the counter-offensive began. At least in America there's evidence that opinions are changing. In Ukraine it's obviously hard to tell since opposing government policy can get you kidnapped, tortured, or worse. They just recently murdered a Russian war blogger who was on a hit list along with prominent Europeans, Americans, and thousands of journalists.

Just in case anyone forgot that we're supporting a right-wing terrorist regime.

Sam Lowry said:

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sombear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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whiterock said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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sombear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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sombear said:

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KaiBear said:

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Wonder how many more Ukranians were killed last week in Biden's proxy war with Russia ? How many more crippled for life, how many more had their homes destroyed ?

All so Ukraine could accept US prodding to join NATO.

The same NATO that, just 2 months ago, turned down even the prospect of Ukranian membership into their organization.

Don't look too closely into US meddling all you internet soldiers.

Might force you to finally accept all the Ukranian blood on our hands.

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95% of Ukrainians support the total war effort. Quite elitist of you to suggest we're making/forcing their decisions.

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You can not possibly know that.....hell Ukraine is not even allowed to have elections right now by the Regime in Kyiv.

We have zero idea what average Ukrainians thinks about total war or about being bayonet marched into conscription.

Maybe vast majorities support the total war...maybe they don't

It benefits Washington to put out the narrative that average Ukrainians really want to fight this war...the same as how it benefits Moscow to put out the narrative that average Russians want to fight this war.

---

There is plenty of evidence on this, and both are true. A strong majority of Ukrainians and Russians support the war, though higher in Ukraine.

---

You named a number....95%

You can't know that and it would be better if you just acknowledged that it is a percentage you pulled out of your butt.

There are lots of young fighting age men trying to get out of both Ukraine and Russia (to avoid this fight) and flee to the other places.

I would be willing to bet my whole life savings that you can't get 95% of Ukrainians to say they support this long war

---

The stream of OSINT on this question is remarkably consistent across all sources - the Russian invasion galvanized Ukrainian nationalism, unified Ukrainian and Russian speaking Ukrainians virtually overnight. Consistent and very high support for territorial integrity, winning the war, expelling Russia, etc..... Over and over. Sustained over long periods of time. There seems to be no quit in the Ukrainians. The war has become a crucible that is transforming the soul of their nation in very positive ways, particularly on the question of unity.

https://news.gallup.com/opinion/gallup/471155/charts-russia-ukraine-war.aspx
https://news.gallup.com/poll/403133/ukrainians-support-fighting-until-victory.aspx
https://www.rferl.org/a/ukrainian-unity-identity-poll-russian-invasion/32001348.html
https://www.iri.org/news/iri-ukraine-poll-shows-strong-confidence-in-president-zelensky-a-surge-in-support-for-nato-membership-russia-should-pay-for-reconstruction/
https://news.gallup.com/topic/country-ukr.aspx (Gallup homepage on Ukraine polling).

You can ignore it if you wish, but incredibly high Ukrainian support for the war is a fact which starkly rebukes a key premise of your perspective the War.

---

[Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty (RFE/RL) is a United States government funded media organization that broadcasts…]

Is this the part where we just post articles uncritically from government funded propaganda outfits?

---

As usual, I suggest reading the article. It's not their poll. They were reporting on a poll conducted by a respected independent pollster that historically has released polls unfavorable to the Ukraine administration.

I think we all agree you take any poll with at least some grain of salt, but all the data is consistent and has been since late 2022.

---

That's far from clear. The oldest of those polls was more than a year ago, and the newest was months before the counter-offensive began. At least in America there's evidence that opinions are changing. In Ukraine it's obviously hard to tell since opposing government policy can get you kidnapped, tortured, or worse. They just recently murdered a Russian war blogger, who was on a hit list along with prominent Europeans, Americans, and thousands of journalists.

Just in case anyone forgot that we're supporting a right-wing terrorist regime.

---

Doubling down on the RU propaganda today I see. Must've been a riveting episode of Solovyov last night.

And trying to pass off RU war bloggers as some innocents when they command their own troops and help load heavy artillery is quite stupid. I would say even for you vatnik, but you continue to show your stupidity in this in every post. Almost to the point of comedy now.