whiterock said:

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KaiBear said:

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US manipulated this war.

Thousands are now dead because of it.

Yet the clueless internet warriors who have never seen the corpses stack up still think of this horror as some kind of video game.

Yet not a single one of these heroes would ever enlist to fight. Might get their fingernails dirty ( or leg blown off )

And for all this mesage board chatter no one sincerely believes Ukraine can defeat Russia. There is zero chance Ukraine can invade and hold significant parts of Russian territory.

Past time to end this abomination and broker a cease fire.

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Nobody ""manipulates a major power into a 150k troop strong invasion.

---

FDR manipulated Japan into attacking Pearl Harbor by cutting off US oil shipments .

Forced Japan to invade the Dutch East Indies for their oil fields.

And the US Pacific fleet had to be neutralized to cover this invasion .

US forces crossed the 38th parallel into North lKorea while ignoring repeated warnings from communist China .

Until finally China responded by sending almost a million soldiers into North Korea where they annihilated two South Korean divisions and drove the US army back below the 38th parallel inflicting thousands of casualties in the process

ATL Bear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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ATL Bear said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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trey3216 said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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trey3216 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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Bear8084 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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Bear8084 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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sombear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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whiterock said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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sombear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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sombear said:

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KaiBear said:

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Wonder how many more Ukranians were killed last week in Biden's proxy war with Russia ? How many more crippled for life, how many more had their homes destroyed ?

All so Ukraine could accept US prodding to join NATO.

The same NATO that, just 2 months ago, turned down even the prospect of Ukranian membership into their organization.

Don't look too closely into US meddling all you internet soldiers.

Might force you to finally accept all the Ukranian blood on our hands.

---

95% of Ukrainians support the total war effort. Quite elitist of you to suggest we're making/forcing their decisions.

---

You can not possibly know that.....hell Ukraine is not even allowed to have elections right now by the Regime in Kyiv.

We have zero idea what average Ukrainians thinks about total war or about being bayonet marched into conscription.

Maybe vast majorities support the total war...maybe they don't

It benefits Washington to put out the narrative that average Ukrainians really want to fight this war...the same as how it benefits Moscow to put out the narrative that average Russians want to fight this war.

---

There is plenty of evidence on this, and both are true. A strong majority of Ukrainians and Russians support the war, though higher in Ukraine.

---

You named a number....95%

You can't know that and it would be better if you just acknowledged that it is a percentage you pulled out of your butt.

There are lots of young fighting age men trying to get out of both Ukraine and Russia (to avoid this fight) and flee to the other places.

I would be willing to bet my whole life savings that you can't get 95% of Ukrainians to say they support this long war

---

The stream of OSINT on this question is remarkably consistent across all sources - the Russian invasion galvanized Ukrainian nationalism, unified Ukrainian and Russian speaking Ukrainians virtually overnight. Consistent and very high support for territorial integrity, winning the war, expelling Russia, etc..... Over and over. Sustained over long periods of time. There seems to be no quit in the Ukrainians. The war has become a crucible that is transforming the soul of their nation in very positive ways, particularly on the question of unity.

https://news.gallup.com/opinion/gallup/471155/charts-russia-ukraine-war.aspx
https://news.gallup.com/poll/403133/ukrainians-support-fighting-until-victory.aspx
https://www.rferl.org/a/ukrainian-unity-identity-poll-russian-invasion/32001348.html
https://www.iri.org/news/iri-ukraine-poll-shows-strong-confidence-in-president-zelensky-a-surge-in-support-for-nato-membership-russia-should-pay-for-reconstruction/
https://news.gallup.com/topic/country-ukr.aspx (Gallup homepage on Ukraine polling).

You can ignore it if you wish, but incredibly high Ukrainian support for the war is a fact which starkly rebukes a key premise of your perspective the War.

---

[Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty (RFE/RL) is a United States government funded media organization that broadcasts…]

Is this the part where we just post articles uncritically from government funded propaganda outfits?

---

As usual, I suggest reading the article. It's not their poll. They were reporting on a poll conducted by a respected independent pollster that historically has released polls unfavorable to the Ukraine administration.

I think we all agree you take any poll with at least some grain of salt, but all the data is consistent and has been since late 2022.

---

That's far from clear. The oldest of those polls was more than a year ago, and the newest was months before the counter-offensive began. At least in America there's evidence that opinions are changing. In Ukraine it's obviously hard to tell since opposing government policy can get you kidnapped, tortured, or worse. They just recently murdered a Russian war blogger, who was on a hit list along with prominent Europeans, Americans, and thousands of journalists.

Just in case anyone forgot that we're supporting a right-wing terrorist regime.

---

Doubling down on the RU propaganda today I see. Must've been a riveting episode of Solovyov last night.

And trying to pass off RU war bloggers as some innocents when they command their own troops and help load heavy artillery is quite stupid. I would say even for you vatnik, but you continue to show your stupidity in this in every post. Almost to the point of comedy now.

---

So it's "propaganda," but you admit it happened and try to justify it.

---

Lol I'm not the one defending actual combatants passing off as "war bloggers". Maybe they shouldn't film themselves sighting and loading artillery and bragging about leading troops.

---

He was giving a talk at a cafe in St. Petersburg. Two dozen people were hospitalized from the explosion.

This is how your pals defend free speech and "democracy."

---

I hope the CIA is monitoring your shlt and you get caught monetarily supporting that criminal state and put away for it.

---

Trey needs some bumper stickers for his new car..."I ****ing love the CIA", "if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear", "Print the money baby and send it to Kyvi"

---

No love for it whatsoever. But Sam has gone from being a reasonable person to overtly and ostensibly in support of an autocratic/fascist regime. So much so that I wouldn't be surprised if he was actually monetarily supportive of their efforts.

---

We can stop supporting fascist regimes right now, starting with Ukraine.

---

Russia made them fascist...

---

The Russian slavs, who fought the fascist axis powers in World War II, while losing 27 million people during the war (including 8.7 million military and 19 million civilians) made the Ukrainians fascist?

God dang we have some big brain boys on this board.






*p.s.

Neither the modern Ukrainians nor Russians are actual fascists…get a dictionary and look up the term

---

What the hell does the Soviets fighting the Nazis 3 generations ago have to do with the Mussolini like regime that Putin runs in Russia? He's even co-opted the Russian orthodox church the same way Mussolini did with the Catholic Church. Nationalism, the state first….

---

Is this the part again where we have go down the rabbit hole of explaining how the current regime in Moscow is not in fact fascist?

In either it's classical Italian or Germanic/Nazi flavors…born of the veterans movements in chaos of post World War I Europe.

The current Putinist government is an oligarchy (that yes uses nationalism and a close relationship to the main Church of the Russian people) to establish its rule.

But for a long list of reasons it is not fascist.

[Kershaw argues that the difference between fascism and other forms of right-wing authoritarianism in the Interwar period is that the latter generally aimed "to conserve the existing social order", whereas fascism was "revolutionary" and "futuristic", seeking to change society completely and obtain "total commitment" from the population.]

[Historian Emilio Gentile has defined fascism as "a completely modern political phenomenon, revolutionary, anti-liberal and anti-Marxist, organized in a militia party with a totalitarian conception of politics and the State, an activist and anti-theoretical ideology, with a mythical, virilistic and anti-hedonistic foundation, sacralized as a secular religion, which affirms the absolute primacy of the nation…hierarchically organized in a corporate state…aimed at creating a new order and a new civilization".]

Putin is not trying to create a new civilization. He is not leading a revolutionary ideological party made up of war veterans, he is not trying to create a command economy, nor create a new secular religion for the masses.

His cabal around him is mostly concerned with using the existing State apparatus to make themselves wealthy (that is kleptocracy) and to the extent that the regime does believe in Russian great power nationalism…that does not make them fascist for sharing 1 similar political commitment.

After all Putin and Stalin share/shared similar ideas about Russia as great power spanning Eurasian….and neither of them are fascists.

Heck in modern North Korea, kim jong un and the communist Workers party of Korea leans heavily on Korean nationalism to legitimize its rule….yet it's of course not fascist…it's literally communist

ATL Bear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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ATL Bear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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ATL Bear said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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trey3216 said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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trey3216 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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Bear8084 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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Bear8084 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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sombear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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whiterock said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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sombear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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sombear said:

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KaiBear said:

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Wonder how many more Ukranians were killed last week in Biden's proxy war with Russia ? How many more crippled for life, how many more had their homes destroyed ?

All so Ukraine could accept US prodding to join NATO.

The same NATO that, just 2 months ago, turned down even the prospect of Ukranian membership into their organization.

Don't look too closely into US meddling all you internet soldiers.

Might force you to finally accept all the Ukranian blood on our hands.

---

95% of Ukrainians support the total war effort. Quite elitist of you to suggest we're making/forcing their decisions.

---

You can not possibly know that.....hell Ukraine is not even allowed to have elections right now by the Regime in Kyiv.

We have zero idea what average Ukrainians thinks about total war or about being bayonet marched into conscription.

Maybe vast majorities support the total war...maybe they don't

It benefits Washington to put out the narrative that average Ukrainians really want to fight this war...the same as how it benefits Moscow to put out the narrative that average Russians want to fight this war.

---

There is plenty of evidence on this, and both are true. A strong majority of Ukrainians and Russians support the war, though higher in Ukraine.

---

You named a number....95%

You can't know that and it would be better if you just acknowledged that it is a percentage you pulled out of your butt.

There are lots of young fighting age men trying to get out of both Ukraine and Russia (to avoid this fight) and flee to the other places.

I would be willing to bet my whole life savings that you can't get 95% of Ukrainians to say they support this long war

---

The stream of OSINT on this question is remarkably consistent across all sources - the Russian invasion galvanized Ukrainian nationalism, unified Ukrainian and Russian speaking Ukrainians virtually overnight. Consistent and very high support for territorial integrity, winning the war, expelling Russia, etc..... Over and over. Sustained over long periods of time. There seems to be no quit in the Ukrainians. The war has become a crucible that is transforming the soul of their nation in very positive ways, particularly on the question of unity.

https://news.gallup.com/opinion/gallup/471155/charts-russia-ukraine-war.aspx
https://news.gallup.com/poll/403133/ukrainians-support-fighting-until-victory.aspx
https://www.rferl.org/a/ukrainian-unity-identity-poll-russian-invasion/32001348.html
https://www.iri.org/news/iri-ukraine-poll-shows-strong-confidence-in-president-zelensky-a-surge-in-support-for-nato-membership-russia-should-pay-for-reconstruction/
https://news.gallup.com/topic/country-ukr.aspx (Gallup homepage on Ukraine polling).

You can ignore it if you wish, but incredibly high Ukrainian support for the war is a fact which starkly rebukes a key premise of your perspective the War.

---

[Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty (RFE/RL) is a United States government funded media organization that broadcasts…]

Is this the part where we just post articles uncritically from government funded propaganda outfits?

---

As usual, I suggest reading the article. It's not their poll. They were reporting on a poll conducted by a respected independent pollster that historically has released polls unfavorable to the Ukraine administration.

I think we all agree you take any poll with at least some grain of salt, but all the data is consistent and has been since late 2022.

---

That's far from clear. The oldest of those polls was more than a year ago, and the newest was months before the counter-offensive began. At least in America there's evidence that opinions are changing. In Ukraine it's obviously hard to tell since opposing government policy can get you kidnapped, tortured, or worse. They just recently murdered a Russian war blogger, who was on a hit list along with prominent Europeans, Americans, and thousands of journalists.

Just in case anyone forgot that we're supporting a right-wing terrorist regime.

---

Doubling down on the RU propaganda today I see. Must've been a riveting episode of Solovyov last night.

And trying to pass off RU war bloggers as some innocents when they command their own troops and help load heavy artillery is quite stupid. I would say even for you vatnik, but you continue to show your stupidity in this in every post. Almost to the point of comedy now.

---

So it's "propaganda," but you admit it happened and try to justify it.

---

Lol I'm not the one defending actual combatants passing off as "war bloggers". Maybe they shouldn't film themselves sighting and loading artillery and bragging about leading troops.

---

He was giving a talk at a cafe in St. Petersburg. Two dozen people were hospitalized from the explosion.

This is how your pals defend free speech and "democracy."

---

I hope the CIA is monitoring your shlt and you get caught monetarily supporting that criminal state and put away for it.

---

Trey needs some bumper stickers for his new car..."I ****ing love the CIA", "if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear", "Print the money baby and send it to Kyvi"

---

No love for it whatsoever. But Sam has gone from being a reasonable person to overtly and ostensibly in support of an autocratic/fascist regime. So much so that I wouldn't be surprised if he was actually monetarily supportive of their efforts.

---

We can stop supporting fascist regimes right now, starting with Ukraine.

---

Russia made them fascist...

---

The Russian slavs, who fought the fascist axis powers in World War II, while losing 27 million people during the war (including 8.7 million military and 19 million civilians) made the Ukrainians fascist?

God dang we have some big brain boys on this board.






*p.s.

Neither the modern Ukrainians nor Russians are actual fascists…get a dictionary and look up the term

---

What the hell does the Soviets fighting the Nazis 3 generations ago have to do with the Mussolini like regime that Putin runs in Russia? He's even co-opted the Russian orthodox church the same way Mussolini did with the Catholic Church. Nationalism, the state first….

---

Is this the part again where we have go down the rabbit hole of explaining how the current regime in Moscow is not in fact fascist?

In either it's classical Italian or Germanic/Nazi flavors…born of the veterans movements in chaos of post World War I Europe.

The current Putinist government is an oligarchy (that yes uses nationalism and a close relationship to the main Church of the Russian people) to establish its rule.

But for a long list of reasons it is not fascist.

[Kershaw argues that the difference between fascism and other forms of right-wing authoritarianism in the Interwar period is that the latter generally aimed "to conserve the existing social order", whereas fascism was "revolutionary" and "futuristic", seeking to change society completely and obtain "total commitment" from the population.]

[Historian Emilio Gentile has defined fascism as "a completely modern political phenomenon, revolutionary, anti-liberal and anti-Marxist, organized in a militia party with a totalitarian conception of politics and the State, an activist and anti-theoretical ideology, with a mythical, virilistic and anti-hedonistic foundation, sacralized as a secular religion, which affirms the absolute primacy of the nation…hierarchically organized in a corporate state…aimed at creating a new order and a new civilization".]

Putin is not trying to create a new civilization. He is not leading a revolutionary ideological party made up of war veterans, he is not trying to create a command economy, nor create a new secular religion for the masses.

His cabal around him is mostly concerned with using the existing State apparatus to make themselves wealthy (that is kleptocracy) and to the extent that the regime does believe in Russian great power nationalism…that does not make them fascist for sharing 1 similar political commitment.

After all Putin and Stalin share/shared similar ideas about Russia as great power spanning Eurasian….and neither of them are fascists.

Heck in modern North Korea, kim jong un and the communist Workers party of Korea leans heavily on Korean nationalism to legitimize its rule….yet it's of course not fascist…it's literally communist

---

Read less dictionaries and Wikis and analyze reality. The parallels are profound….

---

The parallels are actually not profound.

And Hell no I will not stop reading dictionaries….you should try it some time.

You are equating Russian nationalism (and it seems ultra-nationalism in general) with fascism.

A stupid mistake.

A Regime can be communist, monarchist, republican, etc., and embrace a nationalistic and expansionist/aggressive foreign policy.

Other than that the Putinist regime is classically oligarchic and kleptocratic….not fascist

*p.s. Peter Hitchens (who has lived in Moscow before) explains how Putin and his regime are actually trying to create an apolitical populace. Of course fascism (like communism) was trying to create a hyper-political population.

The other aspect of fascism (and communism) that stands out is that it is completely totalitarian. It cares at the deepest level what you think and believe. And is determine to "re-educate" you.

Putin's regime could care less what you actually believe in private…as long as you don't stand up in public and make problems for them. That is classically dictatorial (not totalitarian)

💬 This war will last for a long time, because we still need to liberate Eastern Europe, says Russian general and war criminal Andrei Mordvichev.

The interview was recorded at the end of July this year and Mordvichev assumed that the Ukrainian counteroffensive would slow down by… pic.twitter.com/MB9m1YYcLV

— TheKremlinYap (@TheKremlinYap) September 9, 2023

ATL Bear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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ATL Bear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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ATL Bear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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ATL Bear said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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trey3216 said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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trey3216 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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Bear8084 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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Bear8084 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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sombear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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whiterock said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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sombear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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sombear said:

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KaiBear said:

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Wonder how many more Ukranians were killed last week in Biden's proxy war with Russia ? How many more crippled for life, how many more had their homes destroyed ?

All so Ukraine could accept US prodding to join NATO.

The same NATO that, just 2 months ago, turned down even the prospect of Ukranian membership into their organization.

Don't look too closely into US meddling all you internet soldiers.

Might force you to finally accept all the Ukranian blood on our hands.

---

95% of Ukrainians support the total war effort. Quite elitist of you to suggest we're making/forcing their decisions.

---

You can not possibly know that.....hell Ukraine is not even allowed to have elections right now by the Regime in Kyiv.

We have zero idea what average Ukrainians thinks about total war or about being bayonet marched into conscription.

Maybe vast majorities support the total war...maybe they don't

It benefits Washington to put out the narrative that average Ukrainians really want to fight this war...the same as how it benefits Moscow to put out the narrative that average Russians want to fight this war.

---

There is plenty of evidence on this, and both are true. A strong majority of Ukrainians and Russians support the war, though higher in Ukraine.

---

You named a number....95%

You can't know that and it would be better if you just acknowledged that it is a percentage you pulled out of your butt.

There are lots of young fighting age men trying to get out of both Ukraine and Russia (to avoid this fight) and flee to the other places.

I would be willing to bet my whole life savings that you can't get 95% of Ukrainians to say they support this long war

---

The stream of OSINT on this question is remarkably consistent across all sources - the Russian invasion galvanized Ukrainian nationalism, unified Ukrainian and Russian speaking Ukrainians virtually overnight. Consistent and very high support for territorial integrity, winning the war, expelling Russia, etc..... Over and over. Sustained over long periods of time. There seems to be no quit in the Ukrainians. The war has become a crucible that is transforming the soul of their nation in very positive ways, particularly on the question of unity.

https://news.gallup.com/opinion/gallup/471155/charts-russia-ukraine-war.aspx
https://news.gallup.com/poll/403133/ukrainians-support-fighting-until-victory.aspx
https://www.rferl.org/a/ukrainian-unity-identity-poll-russian-invasion/32001348.html
https://www.iri.org/news/iri-ukraine-poll-shows-strong-confidence-in-president-zelensky-a-surge-in-support-for-nato-membership-russia-should-pay-for-reconstruction/
https://news.gallup.com/topic/country-ukr.aspx (Gallup homepage on Ukraine polling).

You can ignore it if you wish, but incredibly high Ukrainian support for the war is a fact which starkly rebukes a key premise of your perspective the War.

---

[Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty (RFE/RL) is a United States government funded media organization that broadcasts…]

Is this the part where we just post articles uncritically from government funded propaganda outfits?

---

As usual, I suggest reading the article. It's not their poll. They were reporting on a poll conducted by a respected independent pollster that historically has released polls unfavorable to the Ukraine administration.

I think we all agree you take any poll with at least some grain of salt, but all the data is consistent and has been since late 2022.

---

That's far from clear. The oldest of those polls was more than a year ago, and the newest was months before the counter-offensive began. At least in America there's evidence that opinions are changing. In Ukraine it's obviously hard to tell since opposing government policy can get you kidnapped, tortured, or worse. They just recently murdered a Russian war blogger, who was on a hit list along with prominent Europeans, Americans, and thousands of journalists.

Just in case anyone forgot that we're supporting a right-wing terrorist regime.

---

Doubling down on the RU propaganda today I see. Must've been a riveting episode of Solovyov last night.

And trying to pass off RU war bloggers as some innocents when they command their own troops and help load heavy artillery is quite stupid. I would say even for you vatnik, but you continue to show your stupidity in this in every post. Almost to the point of comedy now.

---

So it's "propaganda," but you admit it happened and try to justify it.

---

Lol I'm not the one defending actual combatants passing off as "war bloggers". Maybe they shouldn't film themselves sighting and loading artillery and bragging about leading troops.

---

He was giving a talk at a cafe in St. Petersburg. Two dozen people were hospitalized from the explosion.

This is how your pals defend free speech and "democracy."

---

I hope the CIA is monitoring your shlt and you get caught monetarily supporting that criminal state and put away for it.

---

Trey needs some bumper stickers for his new car..."I ****ing love the CIA", "if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear", "Print the money baby and send it to Kyvi"

---

No love for it whatsoever. But Sam has gone from being a reasonable person to overtly and ostensibly in support of an autocratic/fascist regime. So much so that I wouldn't be surprised if he was actually monetarily supportive of their efforts.

---

We can stop supporting fascist regimes right now, starting with Ukraine.

---

Russia made them fascist...

---

The Russian slavs, who fought the fascist axis powers in World War II, while losing 27 million people during the war (including 8.7 million military and 19 million civilians) made the Ukrainians fascist?

God dang we have some big brain boys on this board.






*p.s.

Neither the modern Ukrainians nor Russians are actual fascists…get a dictionary and look up the term

---

What the hell does the Soviets fighting the Nazis 3 generations ago have to do with the Mussolini like regime that Putin runs in Russia? He's even co-opted the Russian orthodox church the same way Mussolini did with the Catholic Church. Nationalism, the state first….

---

Is this the part again where we have go down the rabbit hole of explaining how the current regime in Moscow is not in fact fascist?

In either it's classical Italian or Germanic/Nazi flavors…born of the veterans movements in chaos of post World War I Europe.

The current Putinist government is an oligarchy (that yes uses nationalism and a close relationship to the main Church of the Russian people) to establish its rule.

But for a long list of reasons it is not fascist.

[Kershaw argues that the difference between fascism and other forms of right-wing authoritarianism in the Interwar period is that the latter generally aimed "to conserve the existing social order", whereas fascism was "revolutionary" and "futuristic", seeking to change society completely and obtain "total commitment" from the population.]

[Historian Emilio Gentile has defined fascism as "a completely modern political phenomenon, revolutionary, anti-liberal and anti-Marxist, organized in a militia party with a totalitarian conception of politics and the State, an activist and anti-theoretical ideology, with a mythical, virilistic and anti-hedonistic foundation, sacralized as a secular religion, which affirms the absolute primacy of the nation…hierarchically organized in a corporate state…aimed at creating a new order and a new civilization".]

Putin is not trying to create a new civilization. He is not leading a revolutionary ideological party made up of war veterans, he is not trying to create a command economy, nor create a new secular religion for the masses.

His cabal around him is mostly concerned with using the existing State apparatus to make themselves wealthy (that is kleptocracy) and to the extent that the regime does believe in Russian great power nationalism…that does not make them fascist for sharing 1 similar political commitment.

After all Putin and Stalin share/shared similar ideas about Russia as great power spanning Eurasian….and neither of them are fascists.

Heck in modern North Korea, kim jong un and the communist Workers party of Korea leans heavily on Korean nationalism to legitimize its rule….yet it's of course not fascist…it's literally communist

---

Read less dictionaries and Wikis and analyze reality. The parallels are profound….

---

The parallels are actually not profound.

And Hell no I will not stop reading dictionaries….you should try it some time.

You are equating Russian nationalism (and it seems ultra-nationalism in general) with fascism.

A stupid mistake.

A Regime can be communist, monarchist, republican, etc., and embrace a nationalistic and expansionist/aggressive foreign policy.

Other than that the Putinist regime is classically oligarchic and kleptocratic….not fascist

*p.s. Peter Hitchens (who has lived in Moscow before) explains how Putin and his regime are actually trying to create an apolitical populace. Of course fascism (like communism) was trying to create a hyper-political population.

The other aspect of fascism (and communism) that stands out is that it is completely totalitarian. It cares at the deepest level what you think and believe. And is determine to "re-educate" you.

Putin's regime could care less what you actually believe in private…as long as you don't stand up in public and make problems for them. That is classically dictatorial (not totalitarian)

---

Russian ultra nationalism, combined with their totalitarian tendencies, political suppression, and corporatist economic structure align clearly with Fascism. Putin literally operates above party and political structure and is the centerpiece of power and authority in the country.

---

Take out Putin from your statement and insert President Xi jinping and it works almost word for word.

Yet Xi is of course not fascist but a committed Communist.

You are committed to associating Putinism with early 20th century fascism…yet they are quite obviously different political systems/ruling regimes

Redbrickbear said:

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I actually took the time to watch this, and it contained a lot of good info. I really don't disagree with much. But a few things:

- He exaggerates the predictions of Russian "financial Armageddon." I don't recall any mainstream predictions of financial ruin. The goal was to make Putin and the oligarchs feels some pain. And they have.
- Virtually everyone (heck, my employer was public about it) knew Russian allies and some neutrals would increase their purchase of Russian oil and gas. Nothing surprising about that, but this guy seems to suggest it caught the west by surprise.
- And, on that note, he minimizes the effects of the sanctions. He seems to suggest a 2.1% GDP drop is nothing. But that is a huge number, especially comparatively.
- Similarly, although he addresses this later in a different context, the non-military drop was far worse.
- Unless I missed it, he also failed to mention the drop of the Ruble.
- He mentioned this later in the video, but I think he should have mentioned earlier when comparing the dramatic damage to Ukraine's economy that the west's financial support mitigates it.
- He exaggerates the predictions of Putin's demise before his Ukraine invasion. Comically, he suggests, the west predicted the demise of Putin based on things like Chechnya, the 2014 Crimea annexation, etc. Fact is, experts knew those things would strengthen Putin at home.
- I don't know if it was intentional because overall this was solid analysis (and he noted Zelensky's sky high approvals). But there were a number of flawed premises.

Redbrickbear said:

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ATL Bear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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ATL Bear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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ATL Bear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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ATL Bear said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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trey3216 said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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trey3216 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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Bear8084 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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Bear8084 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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sombear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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whiterock said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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sombear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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sombear said:

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KaiBear said:

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Wonder how many more Ukranians were killed last week in Biden's proxy war with Russia ? How many more crippled for life, how many more had their homes destroyed ?

All so Ukraine could accept US prodding to join NATO.

The same NATO that, just 2 months ago, turned down even the prospect of Ukranian membership into their organization.

Don't look too closely into US meddling all you internet soldiers.

Might force you to finally accept all the Ukranian blood on our hands.

---

95% of Ukrainians support the total war effort. Quite elitist of you to suggest we're making/forcing their decisions.

---

You can not possibly know that.....hell Ukraine is not even allowed to have elections right now by the Regime in Kyiv.

We have zero idea what average Ukrainians thinks about total war or about being bayonet marched into conscription.

Maybe vast majorities support the total war...maybe they don't

It benefits Washington to put out the narrative that average Ukrainians really want to fight this war...the same as how it benefits Moscow to put out the narrative that average Russians want to fight this war.

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There is plenty of evidence on this, and both are true. A strong majority of Ukrainians and Russians support the war, though higher in Ukraine.

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You named a number....95%

You can't know that and it would be better if you just acknowledged that it is a percentage you pulled out of your butt.

There are lots of young fighting age men trying to get out of both Ukraine and Russia (to avoid this fight) and flee to the other places.

I would be willing to bet my whole life savings that you can't get 95% of Ukrainians to say they support this long war

---

The stream of OSINT on this question is remarkably consistent across all sources - the Russian invasion galvanized Ukrainian nationalism, unified Ukrainian and Russian speaking Ukrainians virtually overnight. Consistent and very high support for territorial integrity, winning the war, expelling Russia, etc..... Over and over. Sustained over long periods of time. There seems to be no quit in the Ukrainians. The war has become a crucible that is transforming the soul of their nation in very positive ways, particularly on the question of unity.

https://news.gallup.com/opinion/gallup/471155/charts-russia-ukraine-war.aspx
https://news.gallup.com/poll/403133/ukrainians-support-fighting-until-victory.aspx
https://www.rferl.org/a/ukrainian-unity-identity-poll-russian-invasion/32001348.html
https://www.iri.org/news/iri-ukraine-poll-shows-strong-confidence-in-president-zelensky-a-surge-in-support-for-nato-membership-russia-should-pay-for-reconstruction/
https://news.gallup.com/topic/country-ukr.aspx (Gallup homepage on Ukraine polling).

You can ignore it if you wish, but incredibly high Ukrainian support for the war is a fact which starkly rebukes a key premise of your perspective the War.

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[Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty (RFE/RL) is a United States government funded media organization that broadcasts…]

Is this the part where we just post articles uncritically from government funded propaganda outfits?

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As usual, I suggest reading the article. It's not their poll. They were reporting on a poll conducted by a respected independent pollster that historically has released polls unfavorable to the Ukraine administration.

I think we all agree you take any poll with at least some grain of salt, but all the data is consistent and has been since late 2022.

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That's far from clear. The oldest of those polls was more than a year ago, and the newest was months before the counter-offensive began. At least in America there's evidence that opinions are changing. In Ukraine it's obviously hard to tell since opposing government policy can get you kidnapped, tortured, or worse. They just recently murdered a Russian war blogger, who was on a hit list along with prominent Europeans, Americans, and thousands of journalists.

Just in case anyone forgot that we're supporting a right-wing terrorist regime.

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Doubling down on the RU propaganda today I see. Must've been a riveting episode of Solovyov last night.

And trying to pass off RU war bloggers as some innocents when they command their own troops and help load heavy artillery is quite stupid. I would say even for you vatnik, but you continue to show your stupidity in this in every post. Almost to the point of comedy now.

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So it's "propaganda," but you admit it happened and try to justify it.

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Lol I'm not the one defending actual combatants passing off as "war bloggers". Maybe they shouldn't film themselves sighting and loading artillery and bragging about leading troops.

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He was giving a talk at a cafe in St. Petersburg. Two dozen people were hospitalized from the explosion.

This is how your pals defend free speech and "democracy."

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I hope the CIA is monitoring your shlt and you get caught monetarily supporting that criminal state and put away for it.

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Trey needs some bumper stickers for his new car..."I ****ing love the CIA", "if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear", "Print the money baby and send it to Kyvi"

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No love for it whatsoever. But Sam has gone from being a reasonable person to overtly and ostensibly in support of an autocratic/fascist regime. So much so that I wouldn't be surprised if he was actually monetarily supportive of their efforts.

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We can stop supporting fascist regimes right now, starting with Ukraine.

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Russia made them fascist...

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The Russian slavs, who fought the fascist axis powers in World War II, while losing 27 million people during the war (including 8.7 million military and 19 million civilians) made the Ukrainians fascist?

God dang we have some big brain boys on this board.






*p.s.

Neither the modern Ukrainians nor Russians are actual fascists…get a dictionary and look up the term

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What the hell does the Soviets fighting the Nazis 3 generations ago have to do with the Mussolini like regime that Putin runs in Russia? He's even co-opted the Russian orthodox church the same way Mussolini did with the Catholic Church. Nationalism, the state first….

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Is this the part again where we have go down the rabbit hole of explaining how the current regime in Moscow is not in fact fascist?

In either it's classical Italian or Germanic/Nazi flavors…born of the veterans movements in chaos of post World War I Europe.

The current Putinist government is an oligarchy (that yes uses nationalism and a close relationship to the main Church of the Russian people) to establish its rule.

But for a long list of reasons it is not fascist.

[Kershaw argues that the difference between fascism and other forms of right-wing authoritarianism in the Interwar period is that the latter generally aimed "to conserve the existing social order", whereas fascism was "revolutionary" and "futuristic", seeking to change society completely and obtain "total commitment" from the population.]

[Historian Emilio Gentile has defined fascism as "a completely modern political phenomenon, revolutionary, anti-liberal and anti-Marxist, organized in a militia party with a totalitarian conception of politics and the State, an activist and anti-theoretical ideology, with a mythical, virilistic and anti-hedonistic foundation, sacralized as a secular religion, which affirms the absolute primacy of the nation…hierarchically organized in a corporate state…aimed at creating a new order and a new civilization".]

Putin is not trying to create a new civilization. He is not leading a revolutionary ideological party made up of war veterans, he is not trying to create a command economy, nor create a new secular religion for the masses.

His cabal around him is mostly concerned with using the existing State apparatus to make themselves wealthy (that is kleptocracy) and to the extent that the regime does believe in Russian great power nationalism…that does not make them fascist for sharing 1 similar political commitment.

After all Putin and Stalin share/shared similar ideas about Russia as great power spanning Eurasian….and neither of them are fascists.

Heck in modern North Korea, kim jong un and the communist Workers party of Korea leans heavily on Korean nationalism to legitimize its rule….yet it's of course not fascist…it's literally communist

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Read less dictionaries and Wikis and analyze reality. The parallels are profound….

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The parallels are actually not profound.

And Hell no I will not stop reading dictionaries….you should try it some time.

You are equating Russian nationalism (and it seems ultra-nationalism in general) with fascism.

A stupid mistake.

A Regime can be communist, monarchist, republican, etc., and embrace a nationalistic and expansionist/aggressive foreign policy.

Other than that the Putinist regime is classically oligarchic and kleptocratic….not fascist

*p.s. Peter Hitchens (who has lived in Moscow before) explains how Putin and his regime are actually trying to create an apolitical populace. Of course fascism (like communism) was trying to create a hyper-political population.

The other aspect of fascism (and communism) that stands out is that it is completely totalitarian. It cares at the deepest level what you think and believe. And is determine to "re-educate" you.

Putin's regime could care less what you actually believe in private…as long as you don't stand up in public and make problems for them. That is classically dictatorial (not totalitarian)

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Russian ultra nationalism, combined with their totalitarian tendencies, political suppression, and corporatist economic structure align clearly with Fascism. Putin literally operates above party and political structure and is the centerpiece of power and authority in the country.

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Take out Putin from your statement and insert President Xi jinping and it works almost word for word.

Yet Xi is of course not fascist but a committed Communist.

You are committed to associating Putinism with early 20th century fascism…yet they are quite obviously different political systems/ruling regimes

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China has a very different economic structure, and at least Xi answers to the Communist party. In fact he's fighting for his political survival behind the scenes right now. They are not comparable.

whiterock said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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Quote:

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Quote:

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Quote:

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DIA apparently thinks it'll take 6wks or so longer than I assessed a few posts back

US Defense Intelligence Agency Director of Analysis Trent Maul stated that there is a “realistic possibility” that Ukrainian forces will break through the entire Russian defense in southern #Ukraine by the end of 2023, while a Ukrainian source suggested that upcoming Russian… https://t.co/LKERHGUdfi

— ISW (@TheStudyofWar) September 8, 2023

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I'll bet they do. Get used to back-pedaling now...it'll come in real handy these next few months.

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Russia has clearly decided that the Orkhiv salient is at the breaking point, a strategic threat, and has pulled all available units (all badly depleted far below western standards of combat ineffectiveness) from elsewhere in the line and thrown them into the breach, where they will get mauled by Uke arty. It is a bad choice. But it is less bad than the others before them, like leaving a paper-thin line everywhere else.

denouement approaches.

russia is moving everything they can to try and just hold ground.. but this is going to just bring more troops into the range of ukraine artillery. pic.twitter.com/KKmV99QSAn

— david D. (@secretsqrl123) September 8, 2023

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Well, it's clearly been the Ukes' main focus on the southern front for a while. Whether that was by design or because of their abject failure at Piatykhatky, who can say? I still don't know why you think the Russians are struggling to man their defenses when there's no real sign of it and they probably have four times as many troops in the theater at this point.

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The Urozhaine axis and Bakhmut were equally intense for most of June-August. Uke did not throw a heavy brigade at Orkhiv until a couple of weeks ago.

It doesn't matter how many troops Russia has IN THEATER. It matters how many they have where they need them. Confirming what I've stated several times, Russia has no reserves in theater. It's having to go pull units off the line elsewhere to throw into the breach at Verbove. They have thrown several badly depleted units into the battle for Verbove, where they are going to get chewed up further. And of course, that will make Russia more vulnerable where the units were withdrawn.

Ukraine is using small unit tactics to take the trenches, then roll them up laterally, then bring forward heavy equipment. They've occupied the 2nd & 3rd layers at Verbove and have widened the area of control sufficiently to bring up heavy equipment. Once they take Verbove, Russians will likely have to withdraw from trenches to the north of town, which should widen the eastern flank of the salient enough for Ukraine to advance artillery and begin barrage of Tokmak. That will restrict Russian supply lines to the coastal road, which will make it easier to target effectively with ATACMS which are about to be released to Ukraine, per reporting this week.

Yes, Biden is slow-walking the aid. We will not even get everything approved for 2023 delivered.

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There's just no evidence for what you're saying. Both sides move units around all the time, as you should expect. Russia maintains a troop advantage ranging from about 1.5/1 to better than 3/1 at every significant point. You are right about one thing -- Ukes are still wasting lives and ammo in their symbolic battle for Bakhmut, to the growing frustration of their Western advisers.

Redbrickbear said:

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ATL Bear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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ATL Bear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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ATL Bear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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ATL Bear said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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trey3216 said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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trey3216 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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Bear8084 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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Bear8084 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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sombear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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whiterock said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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sombear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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sombear said:

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KaiBear said:

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Wonder how many more Ukranians were killed last week in Biden's proxy war with Russia ? How many more crippled for life, how many more had their homes destroyed ?

All so Ukraine could accept US prodding to join NATO.

The same NATO that, just 2 months ago, turned down even the prospect of Ukranian membership into their organization.

Don't look too closely into US meddling all you internet soldiers.

Might force you to finally accept all the Ukranian blood on our hands.

---

95% of Ukrainians support the total war effort. Quite elitist of you to suggest we're making/forcing their decisions.

---

You can not possibly know that.....hell Ukraine is not even allowed to have elections right now by the Regime in Kyiv.

We have zero idea what average Ukrainians thinks about total war or about being bayonet marched into conscription.

Maybe vast majorities support the total war...maybe they don't

It benefits Washington to put out the narrative that average Ukrainians really want to fight this war...the same as how it benefits Moscow to put out the narrative that average Russians want to fight this war.

---

There is plenty of evidence on this, and both are true. A strong majority of Ukrainians and Russians support the war, though higher in Ukraine.

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You named a number....95%

You can't know that and it would be better if you just acknowledged that it is a percentage you pulled out of your butt.

There are lots of young fighting age men trying to get out of both Ukraine and Russia (to avoid this fight) and flee to the other places.

I would be willing to bet my whole life savings that you can't get 95% of Ukrainians to say they support this long war

---

The stream of OSINT on this question is remarkably consistent across all sources - the Russian invasion galvanized Ukrainian nationalism, unified Ukrainian and Russian speaking Ukrainians virtually overnight. Consistent and very high support for territorial integrity, winning the war, expelling Russia, etc..... Over and over. Sustained over long periods of time. There seems to be no quit in the Ukrainians. The war has become a crucible that is transforming the soul of their nation in very positive ways, particularly on the question of unity.

https://news.gallup.com/opinion/gallup/471155/charts-russia-ukraine-war.aspx
https://news.gallup.com/poll/403133/ukrainians-support-fighting-until-victory.aspx
https://www.rferl.org/a/ukrainian-unity-identity-poll-russian-invasion/32001348.html
https://www.iri.org/news/iri-ukraine-poll-shows-strong-confidence-in-president-zelensky-a-surge-in-support-for-nato-membership-russia-should-pay-for-reconstruction/
https://news.gallup.com/topic/country-ukr.aspx (Gallup homepage on Ukraine polling).

You can ignore it if you wish, but incredibly high Ukrainian support for the war is a fact which starkly rebukes a key premise of your perspective the War.

---

[Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty (RFE/RL) is a United States government funded media organization that broadcasts%85]

Is this the part where we just post articles uncritically from government funded propaganda outfits?

---

As usual, I suggest reading the article. It's not their poll. They were reporting on a poll conducted by a respected independent pollster that historically has released polls unfavorable to the Ukraine administration.

I think we all agree you take any poll with at least some grain of salt, but all the data is consistent and has been since late 2022.

---

That's far from clear. The oldest of those polls was more than a year ago, and the newest was months before the counter-offensive began. At least in America there's evidence that opinions are changing. In Ukraine it's obviously hard to tell since opposing government policy can get you kidnapped, tortured, or worse. They just recently murdered a Russian war blogger, who was on a hit list along with prominent Europeans, Americans, and thousands of journalists.

Just in case anyone forgot that we're supporting a right-wing terrorist regime.

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Doubling down on the RU propaganda today I see. Must've been a riveting episode of Solovyov last night.

And trying to pass off RU war bloggers as some innocents when they command their own troops and help load heavy artillery is quite stupid. I would say even for you vatnik, but you continue to show your stupidity in this in every post. Almost to the point of comedy now.

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So it's "propaganda," but you admit it happened and try to justify it.

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Lol I'm not the one defending actual combatants passing off as "war bloggers". Maybe they shouldn't film themselves sighting and loading artillery and bragging about leading troops.

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He was giving a talk at a cafe in St. Petersburg. Two dozen people were hospitalized from the explosion.

This is how your pals defend free speech and "democracy."

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I hope the CIA is monitoring your shlt and you get caught monetarily supporting that criminal state and put away for it.

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Trey needs some bumper stickers for his new car..."I ****ing love the CIA", "if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear", "Print the money baby and send it to Kyvi"

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No love for it whatsoever. But Sam has gone from being a reasonable person to overtly and ostensibly in support of an autocratic/fascist regime. So much so that I wouldn't be surprised if he was actually monetarily supportive of their efforts.

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We can stop supporting fascist regimes right now, starting with Ukraine.

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Russia made them fascist...

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The Russian slavs, who fought the fascist axis powers in World War II, while losing 27 million people during the war (including 8.7 million military and 19 million civilians) made the Ukrainians fascist?

God dang we have some big brain boys on this board.






*p.s.

Neither the modern Ukrainians nor Russians are actual fascists%85get a dictionary and look up the term

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What the hell does the Soviets fighting the Nazis 3 generations ago have to do with the Mussolini like regime that Putin runs in Russia? He's even co-opted the Russian orthodox church the same way Mussolini did with the Catholic Church. Nationalism, the state first%85.

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Is this the part again where we have go down the rabbit hole of explaining how the current regime in Moscow is not in fact fascist?

In either it's classical Italian or Germanic/Nazi flavors%85born of the veterans movements in chaos of post World War I Europe.

The current Putinist government is an oligarchy (that yes uses nationalism and a close relationship to the main Church of the Russian people) to establish its rule.

But for a long list of reasons it is not fascist.

[Kershaw argues that the difference between fascism and other forms of right-wing authoritarianism in the Interwar period is that the latter generally aimed "to conserve the existing social order", whereas fascism was "revolutionary" and "futuristic", seeking to change society completely and obtain "total commitment" from the population.]

[Historian Emilio Gentile has defined fascism as "a completely modern political phenomenon, revolutionary, anti-liberal and anti-Marxist, organized in a militia party with a totalitarian conception of politics and the State, an activist and anti-theoretical ideology, with a mythical, virilistic and anti-hedonistic foundation, sacralized as a secular religion, which affirms the absolute primacy of the nation%85hierarchically organized in a corporate state%85aimed at creating a new order and a new civilization".]

Putin is not trying to create a new civilization. He is not leading a revolutionary ideological party made up of war veterans, he is not trying to create a command economy, nor create a new secular religion for the masses.

His cabal around him is mostly concerned with using the existing State apparatus to make themselves wealthy (that is kleptocracy) and to the extent that the regime does believe in Russian great power nationalism%85that does not make them fascist for sharing 1 similar political commitment.

After all Putin and Stalin share/shared similar ideas about Russia as great power spanning Eurasian%85.and neither of them are fascists.

Heck in modern North Korea, kim jong un and the communist Workers party of Korea leans heavily on Korean nationalism to legitimize its rule%85.yet it's of course not fascist%85it's literally communist

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Read less dictionaries and Wikis and analyze reality. The parallels are profound%85.

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The parallels are actually not profound.

And Hell no I will not stop reading dictionaries%85.you should try it some time.

You are equating Russian nationalism (and it seems ultra-nationalism in general) with fascism.

A stupid mistake.

A Regime can be communist, monarchist, republican, etc., and embrace a nationalistic and expansionist/aggressive foreign policy.

Other than that the Putinist regime is classically oligarchic and kleptocratic%85.not fascist

*p.s. Peter Hitchens (who has lived in Moscow before) explains how Putin and his regime are actually trying to create an apolitical populace. Of course fascism (like communism) was trying to create a hyper-political population.

The other aspect of fascism (and communism) that stands out is that it is completely totalitarian. It cares at the deepest level what you think and believe. And is determine to "re-educate" you.

Putin's regime could care less what you actually believe in private%85as long as you don't stand up in public and make problems for them. That is classically dictatorial (not totalitarian)

---

Russian ultra nationalism, combined with their totalitarian tendencies, political suppression, and corporatist economic structure align clearly with Fascism. Putin literally operates above party and political structure and is the centerpiece of power and authority in the country.

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Take out Putin from your statement and insert President Xi jinping and it works almost word for word.

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Or any Russian czar from the last 500 years. Too many Americans just can't process the idea that anyone would want a government different from ours.

sombear said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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sombear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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whiterock said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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sombear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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sombear said:

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KaiBear said:

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Wonder how many more Ukranians were killed last week in Biden's proxy war with Russia ? How many more crippled for life, how many more had their homes destroyed ?

All so Ukraine could accept US prodding to join NATO.

The same NATO that, just 2 months ago, turned down even the prospect of Ukranian membership into their organization.

Don't look too closely into US meddling all you internet soldiers.

Might force you to finally accept all the Ukranian blood on our hands.

---

95% of Ukrainians support the total war effort. Quite elitist of you to suggest we're making/forcing their decisions.

---

You can not possibly know that.....hell Ukraine is not even allowed to have elections right now by the Regime in Kyiv.

We have zero idea what average Ukrainians thinks about total war or about being bayonet marched into conscription.

Maybe vast majorities support the total war...maybe they don't

It benefits Washington to put out the narrative that average Ukrainians really want to fight this war...the same as how it benefits Moscow to put out the narrative that average Russians want to fight this war.

---

There is plenty of evidence on this, and both are true. A strong majority of Ukrainians and Russians support the war, though higher in Ukraine.

---

You named a number....95%

You can't know that and it would be better if you just acknowledged that it is a percentage you pulled out of your butt.

There are lots of young fighting age men trying to get out of both Ukraine and Russia (to avoid this fight) and flee to the other places.

I would be willing to bet my whole life savings that you can't get 95% of Ukrainians to say they support this long war

---

The stream of OSINT on this question is remarkably consistent across all sources - the Russian invasion galvanized Ukrainian nationalism, unified Ukrainian and Russian speaking Ukrainians virtually overnight. Consistent and very high support for territorial integrity, winning the war, expelling Russia, etc..... Over and over. Sustained over long periods of time. There seems to be no quit in the Ukrainians. The war has become a crucible that is transforming the soul of their nation in very positive ways, particularly on the question of unity.

https://news.gallup.com/opinion/gallup/471155/charts-russia-ukraine-war.aspx
https://news.gallup.com/poll/403133/ukrainians-support-fighting-until-victory.aspx
https://www.rferl.org/a/ukrainian-unity-identity-poll-russian-invasion/32001348.html
https://www.iri.org/news/iri-ukraine-poll-shows-strong-confidence-in-president-zelensky-a-surge-in-support-for-nato-membership-russia-should-pay-for-reconstruction/
https://news.gallup.com/topic/country-ukr.aspx (Gallup homepage on Ukraine polling).

You can ignore it if you wish, but incredibly high Ukrainian support for the war is a fact which starkly rebukes a key premise of your perspective the War.

---

[Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty (RFE/RL) is a United States government funded media organization that broadcasts…]

Is this the part where we just post articles uncritically from government funded propaganda outfits?

---

As usual, I suggest reading the article. It's not their poll. They were reporting on a poll conducted by a respected independent pollster that historically has released polls unfavorable to the Ukraine administration.

I think we all agree you take any poll with at least some grain of salt, but all the data is consistent and has been since late 2022.

---

That's far from clear. The oldest of those polls was more than a year ago, and the newest was months before the counter-offensive began. At least in America there's evidence that opinions are changing. In Ukraine it's obviously hard to tell since opposing government policy can get you kidnapped, tortured, or worse. They just recently murdered a Russian war blogger who was on a hit list along with prominent Europeans, Americans, and thousands of journalists.

Just in case anyone forgot that we're supporting a right-wing terrorist regime.

---

Do you actually believe Ukraine public sentiment has moved the other way as Ukraine gains ground, U.S. and Europe increase funding, and Putin escalates his terror campaign against innocents? Seriously do you really believe that or are you just playing devil's advocate?

If you believe that, do you have any evidence whatsoever? Heck, I'd take even a Kremlin poll!

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I disagree with your premises. Ukraine is losing the war, and Western aid is tapering off. As for civilian casualties, that's probably a wash. Zelensky was killing Ukrainians long before Putin invaded, and he shows no sign of letting up. Ukrainian forces have been shelling civilian targets in Donetsk throughout the war, for example.

Sam Lowry said:

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sombear said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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sombear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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whiterock said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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sombear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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sombear said:

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KaiBear said:

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Wonder how many more Ukranians were killed last week in Biden's proxy war with Russia ? How many more crippled for life, how many more had their homes destroyed ?

All so Ukraine could accept US prodding to join NATO.

The same NATO that, just 2 months ago, turned down even the prospect of Ukranian membership into their organization.

Don't look too closely into US meddling all you internet soldiers.

Might force you to finally accept all the Ukranian blood on our hands.

---

95% of Ukrainians support the total war effort. Quite elitist of you to suggest we're making/forcing their decisions.

---

You can not possibly know that.....hell Ukraine is not even allowed to have elections right now by the Regime in Kyiv.

We have zero idea what average Ukrainians thinks about total war or about being bayonet marched into conscription.

Maybe vast majorities support the total war...maybe they don't

It benefits Washington to put out the narrative that average Ukrainians really want to fight this war...the same as how it benefits Moscow to put out the narrative that average Russians want to fight this war.

---

There is plenty of evidence on this, and both are true. A strong majority of Ukrainians and Russians support the war, though higher in Ukraine.

---

You named a number....95%

You can't know that and it would be better if you just acknowledged that it is a percentage you pulled out of your butt.

There are lots of young fighting age men trying to get out of both Ukraine and Russia (to avoid this fight) and flee to the other places.

I would be willing to bet my whole life savings that you can't get 95% of Ukrainians to say they support this long war

---

The stream of OSINT on this question is remarkably consistent across all sources - the Russian invasion galvanized Ukrainian nationalism, unified Ukrainian and Russian speaking Ukrainians virtually overnight. Consistent and very high support for territorial integrity, winning the war, expelling Russia, etc..... Over and over. Sustained over long periods of time. There seems to be no quit in the Ukrainians. The war has become a crucible that is transforming the soul of their nation in very positive ways, particularly on the question of unity.

https://news.gallup.com/opinion/gallup/471155/charts-russia-ukraine-war.aspx
https://news.gallup.com/poll/403133/ukrainians-support-fighting-until-victory.aspx
https://www.rferl.org/a/ukrainian-unity-identity-poll-russian-invasion/32001348.html
https://www.iri.org/news/iri-ukraine-poll-shows-strong-confidence-in-president-zelensky-a-surge-in-support-for-nato-membership-russia-should-pay-for-reconstruction/
https://news.gallup.com/topic/country-ukr.aspx (Gallup homepage on Ukraine polling).

You can ignore it if you wish, but incredibly high Ukrainian support for the war is a fact which starkly rebukes a key premise of your perspective the War.

---

[Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty (RFE/RL) is a United States government funded media organization that broadcasts…]

Is this the part where we just post articles uncritically from government funded propaganda outfits?

---

As usual, I suggest reading the article. It's not their poll. They were reporting on a poll conducted by a respected independent pollster that historically has released polls unfavorable to the Ukraine administration.

I think we all agree you take any poll with at least some grain of salt, but all the data is consistent and has been since late 2022.

---

That's far from clear. The oldest of those polls was more than a year ago, and the newest was months before the counter-offensive began. At least in America there's evidence that opinions are changing. In Ukraine it's obviously hard to tell since opposing government policy can get you kidnapped, tortured, or worse. They just recently murdered a Russian war blogger who was on a hit list along with prominent Europeans, Americans, and thousands of journalists.

Just in case anyone forgot that we're supporting a right-wing terrorist regime.

---

Do you actually believe Ukraine public sentiment has moved the other way as Ukraine gains ground, U.S. and Europe increase funding, and Putin escalates his terror campaign against innocents? Seriously do you really believe that or are you just playing devil's advocate?

If you believe that, do you have any evidence whatsoever? Heck, I'd take even a Kremlin poll!

---

I disagree with your premises. Ukraine is losing the war, and Western aid is tapering off. As for civilian casualties, that's probably a wash. Zelensky was killing Ukrainians long before Putin invaded, and he shows no sign of letting up. Ukrainian forces have been shelling civilian targets in Donetsk throughout the war, for example.

---

If Vatnik Sam is saying it, the opposite is reality.

Sam Lowry said:

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sombear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

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sombear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

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whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

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sombear said:

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KaiBear said:

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Wonder how many more Ukranians were killed last week in Biden's proxy war with Russia ? How many more crippled for life, how many more had their homes destroyed ?

All so Ukraine could accept US prodding to join NATO.

The same NATO that, just 2 months ago, turned down even the prospect of Ukranian membership into their organization.

Don't look too closely into US meddling all you internet soldiers.

Might force you to finally accept all the Ukranian blood on our hands.

---

95% of Ukrainians support the total war effort. Quite elitist of you to suggest we're making/forcing their decisions.

---

You can not possibly know that.....hell Ukraine is not even allowed to have elections right now by the Regime in Kyiv.

We have zero idea what average Ukrainians thinks about total war or about being bayonet marched into conscription.

Maybe vast majorities support the total war...maybe they don't

It benefits Washington to put out the narrative that average Ukrainians really want to fight this war...the same as how it benefits Moscow to put out the narrative that average Russians want to fight this war.

---

There is plenty of evidence on this, and both are true. A strong majority of Ukrainians and Russians support the war, though higher in Ukraine.

---

You named a number....95%

You can't know that and it would be better if you just acknowledged that it is a percentage you pulled out of your butt.

There are lots of young fighting age men trying to get out of both Ukraine and Russia (to avoid this fight) and flee to the other places.

I would be willing to bet my whole life savings that you can't get 95% of Ukrainians to say they support this long war

---

The stream of OSINT on this question is remarkably consistent across all sources - the Russian invasion galvanized Ukrainian nationalism, unified Ukrainian and Russian speaking Ukrainians virtually overnight. Consistent and very high support for territorial integrity, winning the war, expelling Russia, etc..... Over and over. Sustained over long periods of time. There seems to be no quit in the Ukrainians. The war has become a crucible that is transforming the soul of their nation in very positive ways, particularly on the question of unity.

https://news.gallup.com/opinion/gallup/471155/charts-russia-ukraine-war.aspx
https://news.gallup.com/poll/403133/ukrainians-support-fighting-until-victory.aspx
https://www.rferl.org/a/ukrainian-unity-identity-poll-russian-invasion/32001348.html
https://www.iri.org/news/iri-ukraine-poll-shows-strong-confidence-in-president-zelensky-a-surge-in-support-for-nato-membership-russia-should-pay-for-reconstruction/
https://news.gallup.com/topic/country-ukr.aspx (Gallup homepage on Ukraine polling).

You can ignore it if you wish, but incredibly high Ukrainian support for the war is a fact which starkly rebukes a key premise of your perspective the War.

---

[Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty (RFE/RL) is a United States government funded media organization that broadcasts…]

Is this the part where we just post articles uncritically from government funded propaganda outfits?

---

As usual, I suggest reading the article. It's not their poll. They were reporting on a poll conducted by a respected independent pollster that historically has released polls unfavorable to the Ukraine administration.

I think we all agree you take any poll with at least some grain of salt, but all the data is consistent and has been since late 2022.

---

That's far from clear. The oldest of those polls was more than a year ago, and the newest was months before the counter-offensive began. At least in America there's evidence that opinions are changing. In Ukraine it's obviously hard to tell since opposing government policy can get you kidnapped, tortured, or worse. They just recently murdered a Russian war blogger who was on a hit list along with prominent Europeans, Americans, and thousands of journalists.

Just in case anyone forgot that we're supporting a right-wing terrorist regime.

---

Do you actually believe Ukraine public sentiment has moved the other way as Ukraine gains ground, U.S. and Europe increase funding, and Putin escalates his terror campaign against innocents? Seriously do you really believe that or are you just playing devil's advocate?

If you believe that, do you have any evidence whatsoever? Heck, I'd take even a Kremlin poll!

---

I disagree with your premises. Ukraine is losing the war, and Western aid is tapering off. As for civilian casualties, that's probably a wash. Zelensky was killing Ukrainians long before Putin invaded, and he shows no sign of letting up. Ukrainian forces have been shelling civilian targets in Donetsk throughout the war, for example.

---

Fine, but do you believe Ukrainian sentiment has changed? And, if so, do you have any supporting evidence?

Sam Lowry said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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ATL Bear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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ATL Bear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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ATL Bear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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ATL Bear said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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trey3216 said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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trey3216 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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Bear8084 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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Bear8084 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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sombear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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whiterock said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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sombear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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sombear said:

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KaiBear said:

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Wonder how many more Ukranians were killed last week in Biden's proxy war with Russia ? How many more crippled for life, how many more had their homes destroyed ?

All so Ukraine could accept US prodding to join NATO.

The same NATO that, just 2 months ago, turned down even the prospect of Ukranian membership into their organization.

Don't look too closely into US meddling all you internet soldiers.

Might force you to finally accept all the Ukranian blood on our hands.

---

95% of Ukrainians support the total war effort. Quite elitist of you to suggest we're making/forcing their decisions.

---

You can not possibly know that.....hell Ukraine is not even allowed to have elections right now by the Regime in Kyiv.

We have zero idea what average Ukrainians thinks about total war or about being bayonet marched into conscription.

Maybe vast majorities support the total war...maybe they don't

It benefits Washington to put out the narrative that average Ukrainians really want to fight this war...the same as how it benefits Moscow to put out the narrative that average Russians want to fight this war.

---

There is plenty of evidence on this, and both are true. A strong majority of Ukrainians and Russians support the war, though higher in Ukraine.

---

You named a number....95%

You can't know that and it would be better if you just acknowledged that it is a percentage you pulled out of your butt.

There are lots of young fighting age men trying to get out of both Ukraine and Russia (to avoid this fight) and flee to the other places.

I would be willing to bet my whole life savings that you can't get 95% of Ukrainians to say they support this long war

---

The stream of OSINT on this question is remarkably consistent across all sources - the Russian invasion galvanized Ukrainian nationalism, unified Ukrainian and Russian speaking Ukrainians virtually overnight. Consistent and very high support for territorial integrity, winning the war, expelling Russia, etc..... Over and over. Sustained over long periods of time. There seems to be no quit in the Ukrainians. The war has become a crucible that is transforming the soul of their nation in very positive ways, particularly on the question of unity.

https://news.gallup.com/opinion/gallup/471155/charts-russia-ukraine-war.aspx
https://news.gallup.com/poll/403133/ukrainians-support-fighting-until-victory.aspx
https://www.rferl.org/a/ukrainian-unity-identity-poll-russian-invasion/32001348.html
https://www.iri.org/news/iri-ukraine-poll-shows-strong-confidence-in-president-zelensky-a-surge-in-support-for-nato-membership-russia-should-pay-for-reconstruction/
https://news.gallup.com/topic/country-ukr.aspx (Gallup homepage on Ukraine polling).

You can ignore it if you wish, but incredibly high Ukrainian support for the war is a fact which starkly rebukes a key premise of your perspective the War.

---

[Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty (RFE/RL) is a United States government funded media organization that broadcasts%85]

Is this the part where we just post articles uncritically from government funded propaganda outfits?

---

As usual, I suggest reading the article. It's not their poll. They were reporting on a poll conducted by a respected independent pollster that historically has released polls unfavorable to the Ukraine administration.

I think we all agree you take any poll with at least some grain of salt, but all the data is consistent and has been since late 2022.

---

That's far from clear. The oldest of those polls was more than a year ago, and the newest was months before the counter-offensive began. At least in America there's evidence that opinions are changing. In Ukraine it's obviously hard to tell since opposing government policy can get you kidnapped, tortured, or worse. They just recently murdered a Russian war blogger, who was on a hit list along with prominent Europeans, Americans, and thousands of journalists.

Just in case anyone forgot that we're supporting a right-wing terrorist regime.

---

Doubling down on the RU propaganda today I see. Must've been a riveting episode of Solovyov last night.

And trying to pass off RU war bloggers as some innocents when they command their own troops and help load heavy artillery is quite stupid. I would say even for you vatnik, but you continue to show your stupidity in this in every post. Almost to the point of comedy now.

---

So it's "propaganda," but you admit it happened and try to justify it.

---

Lol I'm not the one defending actual combatants passing off as "war bloggers". Maybe they shouldn't film themselves sighting and loading artillery and bragging about leading troops.

---

He was giving a talk at a cafe in St. Petersburg. Two dozen people were hospitalized from the explosion.

This is how your pals defend free speech and "democracy."

---

I hope the CIA is monitoring your shlt and you get caught monetarily supporting that criminal state and put away for it.

---

Trey needs some bumper stickers for his new car..."I ****ing love the CIA", "if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear", "Print the money baby and send it to Kyvi"

---

No love for it whatsoever. But Sam has gone from being a reasonable person to overtly and ostensibly in support of an autocratic/fascist regime. So much so that I wouldn't be surprised if he was actually monetarily supportive of their efforts.

---

We can stop supporting fascist regimes right now, starting with Ukraine.

---

Russia made them fascist...

---

The Russian slavs, who fought the fascist axis powers in World War II, while losing 27 million people during the war (including 8.7 million military and 19 million civilians) made the Ukrainians fascist?

God dang we have some big brain boys on this board.






*p.s.

Neither the modern Ukrainians nor Russians are actual fascists%85get a dictionary and look up the term

---

What the hell does the Soviets fighting the Nazis 3 generations ago have to do with the Mussolini like regime that Putin runs in Russia? He's even co-opted the Russian orthodox church the same way Mussolini did with the Catholic Church. Nationalism, the state first%85.

---

Is this the part again where we have go down the rabbit hole of explaining how the current regime in Moscow is not in fact fascist?

In either it's classical Italian or Germanic/Nazi flavors%85born of the veterans movements in chaos of post World War I Europe.

The current Putinist government is an oligarchy (that yes uses nationalism and a close relationship to the main Church of the Russian people) to establish its rule.

But for a long list of reasons it is not fascist.

[Kershaw argues that the difference between fascism and other forms of right-wing authoritarianism in the Interwar period is that the latter generally aimed "to conserve the existing social order", whereas fascism was "revolutionary" and "futuristic", seeking to change society completely and obtain "total commitment" from the population.]

[Historian Emilio Gentile has defined fascism as "a completely modern political phenomenon, revolutionary, anti-liberal and anti-Marxist, organized in a militia party with a totalitarian conception of politics and the State, an activist and anti-theoretical ideology, with a mythical, virilistic and anti-hedonistic foundation, sacralized as a secular religion, which affirms the absolute primacy of the nation%85hierarchically organized in a corporate state%85aimed at creating a new order and a new civilization".]

Putin is not trying to create a new civilization. He is not leading a revolutionary ideological party made up of war veterans, he is not trying to create a command economy, nor create a new secular religion for the masses.

His cabal around him is mostly concerned with using the existing State apparatus to make themselves wealthy (that is kleptocracy) and to the extent that the regime does believe in Russian great power nationalism%85that does not make them fascist for sharing 1 similar political commitment.

After all Putin and Stalin share/shared similar ideas about Russia as great power spanning Eurasian%85.and neither of them are fascists.

Heck in modern North Korea, kim jong un and the communist Workers party of Korea leans heavily on Korean nationalism to legitimize its rule%85.yet it's of course not fascist%85it's literally communist

---

Read less dictionaries and Wikis and analyze reality. The parallels are profound%85.

---

The parallels are actually not profound.

And Hell no I will not stop reading dictionaries%85.you should try it some time.

You are equating Russian nationalism (and it seems ultra-nationalism in general) with fascism.

A stupid mistake.

A Regime can be communist, monarchist, republican, etc., and embrace a nationalistic and expansionist/aggressive foreign policy.

Other than that the Putinist regime is classically oligarchic and kleptocratic%85.not fascist

*p.s. Peter Hitchens (who has lived in Moscow before) explains how Putin and his regime are actually trying to create an apolitical populace. Of course fascism (like communism) was trying to create a hyper-political population.

The other aspect of fascism (and communism) that stands out is that it is completely totalitarian. It cares at the deepest level what you think and believe. And is determine to "re-educate" you.

Putin's regime could care less what you actually believe in private%85as long as you don't stand up in public and make problems for them. That is classically dictatorial (not totalitarian)

---

Russian ultra nationalism, combined with their totalitarian tendencies, political suppression, and corporatist economic structure align clearly with Fascism. Putin literally operates above party and political structure and is the centerpiece of power and authority in the country.

---

Take out Putin from your statement and insert President Xi jinping and it works almost word for word.

---

Or any Russian czar from the last 500 years. Too many Americans just can't process the idea that anyone would want a government different from ours.

---

I need someone to edit this meme to say "traditional Russian czarist autocracy & despotism" from conservative on the butterfly to make it fit the situation.

ATL Bear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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ATL Bear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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ATL Bear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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ATL Bear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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ATL Bear said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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trey3216 said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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trey3216 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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Bear8084 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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Bear8084 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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sombear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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whiterock said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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sombear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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sombear said:

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KaiBear said:

---

Wonder how many more Ukranians were killed last week in Biden's proxy war with Russia ? How many more crippled for life, how many more had their homes destroyed ?

All so Ukraine could accept US prodding to join NATO.

The same NATO that, just 2 months ago, turned down even the prospect of Ukranian membership into their organization.

Don't look too closely into US meddling all you internet soldiers.

Might force you to finally accept all the Ukranian blood on our hands.

---

95% of Ukrainians support the total war effort. Quite elitist of you to suggest we're making/forcing their decisions.

---

You can not possibly know that.....hell Ukraine is not even allowed to have elections right now by the Regime in Kyiv.

We have zero idea what average Ukrainians thinks about total war or about being bayonet marched into conscription.

Maybe vast majorities support the total war...maybe they don't

It benefits Washington to put out the narrative that average Ukrainians really want to fight this war...the same as how it benefits Moscow to put out the narrative that average Russians want to fight this war.

---

There is plenty of evidence on this, and both are true. A strong majority of Ukrainians and Russians support the war, though higher in Ukraine.

---

You named a number....95%

You can't know that and it would be better if you just acknowledged that it is a percentage you pulled out of your butt.

There are lots of young fighting age men trying to get out of both Ukraine and Russia (to avoid this fight) and flee to the other places.

I would be willing to bet my whole life savings that you can't get 95% of Ukrainians to say they support this long war

---

The stream of OSINT on this question is remarkably consistent across all sources - the Russian invasion galvanized Ukrainian nationalism, unified Ukrainian and Russian speaking Ukrainians virtually overnight. Consistent and very high support for territorial integrity, winning the war, expelling Russia, etc..... Over and over. Sustained over long periods of time. There seems to be no quit in the Ukrainians. The war has become a crucible that is transforming the soul of their nation in very positive ways, particularly on the question of unity.

https://news.gallup.com/opinion/gallup/471155/charts-russia-ukraine-war.aspx
https://news.gallup.com/poll/403133/ukrainians-support-fighting-until-victory.aspx
https://www.rferl.org/a/ukrainian-unity-identity-poll-russian-invasion/32001348.html
https://www.iri.org/news/iri-ukraine-poll-shows-strong-confidence-in-president-zelensky-a-surge-in-support-for-nato-membership-russia-should-pay-for-reconstruction/
https://news.gallup.com/topic/country-ukr.aspx (Gallup homepage on Ukraine polling).

You can ignore it if you wish, but incredibly high Ukrainian support for the war is a fact which starkly rebukes a key premise of your perspective the War.

---

[Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty (RFE/RL) is a United States government funded media organization that broadcasts…]

Is this the part where we just post articles uncritically from government funded propaganda outfits?

---

As usual, I suggest reading the article. It's not their poll. They were reporting on a poll conducted by a respected independent pollster that historically has released polls unfavorable to the Ukraine administration.

I think we all agree you take any poll with at least some grain of salt, but all the data is consistent and has been since late 2022.

---

That's far from clear. The oldest of those polls was more than a year ago, and the newest was months before the counter-offensive began. At least in America there's evidence that opinions are changing. In Ukraine it's obviously hard to tell since opposing government policy can get you kidnapped, tortured, or worse. They just recently murdered a Russian war blogger, who was on a hit list along with prominent Europeans, Americans, and thousands of journalists.

Just in case anyone forgot that we're supporting a right-wing terrorist regime.

---

Doubling down on the RU propaganda today I see. Must've been a riveting episode of Solovyov last night.

And trying to pass off RU war bloggers as some innocents when they command their own troops and help load heavy artillery is quite stupid. I would say even for you vatnik, but you continue to show your stupidity in this in every post. Almost to the point of comedy now.

---

So it's "propaganda," but you admit it happened and try to justify it.

---

Lol I'm not the one defending actual combatants passing off as "war bloggers". Maybe they shouldn't film themselves sighting and loading artillery and bragging about leading troops.

---

He was giving a talk at a cafe in St. Petersburg. Two dozen people were hospitalized from the explosion.

This is how your pals defend free speech and "democracy."

---

I hope the CIA is monitoring your shlt and you get caught monetarily supporting that criminal state and put away for it.

---

Trey needs some bumper stickers for his new car..."I ****ing love the CIA", "if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear", "Print the money baby and send it to Kyvi"

---

No love for it whatsoever. But Sam has gone from being a reasonable person to overtly and ostensibly in support of an autocratic/fascist regime. So much so that I wouldn't be surprised if he was actually monetarily supportive of their efforts.

---

We can stop supporting fascist regimes right now, starting with Ukraine.

---

Russia made them fascist...

---

The Russian slavs, who fought the fascist axis powers in World War II, while losing 27 million people during the war (including 8.7 million military and 19 million civilians) made the Ukrainians fascist?

God dang we have some big brain boys on this board.






*p.s.

Neither the modern Ukrainians nor Russians are actual fascists…get a dictionary and look up the term

---

What the hell does the Soviets fighting the Nazis 3 generations ago have to do with the Mussolini like regime that Putin runs in Russia? He's even co-opted the Russian orthodox church the same way Mussolini did with the Catholic Church. Nationalism, the state first….

---

Is this the part again where we have go down the rabbit hole of explaining how the current regime in Moscow is not in fact fascist?

In either it's classical Italian or Germanic/Nazi flavors…born of the veterans movements in chaos of post World War I Europe.

The current Putinist government is an oligarchy (that yes uses nationalism and a close relationship to the main Church of the Russian people) to establish its rule.

But for a long list of reasons it is not fascist.

[Kershaw argues that the difference between fascism and other forms of right-wing authoritarianism in the Interwar period is that the latter generally aimed "to conserve the existing social order", whereas fascism was "revolutionary" and "futuristic", seeking to change society completely and obtain "total commitment" from the population.]

[Historian Emilio Gentile has defined fascism as "a completely modern political phenomenon, revolutionary, anti-liberal and anti-Marxist, organized in a militia party with a totalitarian conception of politics and the State, an activist and anti-theoretical ideology, with a mythical, virilistic and anti-hedonistic foundation, sacralized as a secular religion, which affirms the absolute primacy of the nation…hierarchically organized in a corporate state…aimed at creating a new order and a new civilization".]

Putin is not trying to create a new civilization. He is not leading a revolutionary ideological party made up of war veterans, he is not trying to create a command economy, nor create a new secular religion for the masses.

His cabal around him is mostly concerned with using the existing State apparatus to make themselves wealthy (that is kleptocracy) and to the extent that the regime does believe in Russian great power nationalism…that does not make them fascist for sharing 1 similar political commitment.

After all Putin and Stalin share/shared similar ideas about Russia as great power spanning Eurasian….and neither of them are fascists.

Heck in modern North Korea, kim jong un and the communist Workers party of Korea leans heavily on Korean nationalism to legitimize its rule….yet it's of course not fascist…it's literally communist

---

Read less dictionaries and Wikis and analyze reality. The parallels are profound….

---

The parallels are actually not profound.

And Hell no I will not stop reading dictionaries….you should try it some time.

You are equating Russian nationalism (and it seems ultra-nationalism in general) with fascism.

A stupid mistake.

A Regime can be communist, monarchist, republican, etc., and embrace a nationalistic and expansionist/aggressive foreign policy.

Other than that the Putinist regime is classically oligarchic and kleptocratic….not fascist

*p.s. Peter Hitchens (who has lived in Moscow before) explains how Putin and his regime are actually trying to create an apolitical populace. Of course fascism (like communism) was trying to create a hyper-political population.

The other aspect of fascism (and communism) that stands out is that it is completely totalitarian. It cares at the deepest level what you think and believe. And is determine to "re-educate" you.

Putin's regime could care less what you actually believe in private…as long as you don't stand up in public and make problems for them. That is classically dictatorial (not totalitarian)

---

Russian ultra nationalism, combined with their totalitarian tendencies, political suppression, and corporatist economic structure align clearly with Fascism. Putin literally operates above party and political structure and is the centerpiece of power and authority in the country.

---

Take out Putin from your statement and insert President Xi jinping and it works almost word for word.

Yet Xi is of course not fascist but a committed Communist.

You are committed to associating Putinism with early 20th century fascism…yet they are quite obviously different political systems/ruling regimes

---

China has a very different economic structure, and at least Xi answers to the Communist party….

---

Incorrect again.

Xi has sidelined the party apparatus and leadership and now rules alone at the top.

Similar to how the Kim family rules their communist hermit kingdom in N. Korea.


He is also attempting to create a cult of personality like Stalin and Mao did.

sombear said:

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Sam Lowry said:

---

sombear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

sombear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

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KaiBear said:

---

Wonder how many more Ukranians were killed last week in Biden's proxy war with Russia ? How many more crippled for life, how many more had their homes destroyed ?

All so Ukraine could accept US prodding to join NATO.

The same NATO that, just 2 months ago, turned down even the prospect of Ukranian membership into their organization.

Don't look too closely into US meddling all you internet soldiers.

Might force you to finally accept all the Ukranian blood on our hands.

---

95% of Ukrainians support the total war effort. Quite elitist of you to suggest we're making/forcing their decisions.

---

You can not possibly know that.....hell Ukraine is not even allowed to have elections right now by the Regime in Kyiv.

We have zero idea what average Ukrainians thinks about total war or about being bayonet marched into conscription.

Maybe vast majorities support the total war...maybe they don't

It benefits Washington to put out the narrative that average Ukrainians really want to fight this war...the same as how it benefits Moscow to put out the narrative that average Russians want to fight this war.

---

There is plenty of evidence on this, and both are true. A strong majority of Ukrainians and Russians support the war, though higher in Ukraine.

---

You named a number....95%

You can't know that and it would be better if you just acknowledged that it is a percentage you pulled out of your butt.

There are lots of young fighting age men trying to get out of both Ukraine and Russia (to avoid this fight) and flee to the other places.

I would be willing to bet my whole life savings that you can't get 95% of Ukrainians to say they support this long war

---

The stream of OSINT on this question is remarkably consistent across all sources - the Russian invasion galvanized Ukrainian nationalism, unified Ukrainian and Russian speaking Ukrainians virtually overnight. Consistent and very high support for territorial integrity, winning the war, expelling Russia, etc..... Over and over. Sustained over long periods of time. There seems to be no quit in the Ukrainians. The war has become a crucible that is transforming the soul of their nation in very positive ways, particularly on the question of unity.

https://news.gallup.com/opinion/gallup/471155/charts-russia-ukraine-war.aspx
https://news.gallup.com/poll/403133/ukrainians-support-fighting-until-victory.aspx
https://www.rferl.org/a/ukrainian-unity-identity-poll-russian-invasion/32001348.html
https://www.iri.org/news/iri-ukraine-poll-shows-strong-confidence-in-president-zelensky-a-surge-in-support-for-nato-membership-russia-should-pay-for-reconstruction/
https://news.gallup.com/topic/country-ukr.aspx (Gallup homepage on Ukraine polling).

You can ignore it if you wish, but incredibly high Ukrainian support for the war is a fact which starkly rebukes a key premise of your perspective the War.

---

[Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty (RFE/RL) is a United States government funded media organization that broadcasts…]

Is this the part where we just post articles uncritically from government funded propaganda outfits?

---

As usual, I suggest reading the article. It's not their poll. They were reporting on a poll conducted by a respected independent pollster that historically has released polls unfavorable to the Ukraine administration.

I think we all agree you take any poll with at least some grain of salt, but all the data is consistent and has been since late 2022.

---

That's far from clear. The oldest of those polls was more than a year ago, and the newest was months before the counter-offensive began. At least in America there's evidence that opinions are changing. In Ukraine it's obviously hard to tell since opposing government policy can get you kidnapped, tortured, or worse. They just recently murdered a Russian war blogger who was on a hit list along with prominent Europeans, Americans, and thousands of journalists.

Just in case anyone forgot that we're supporting a right-wing terrorist regime.

---

Do you actually believe Ukraine public sentiment has moved the other way as Ukraine gains ground, U.S. and Europe increase funding, and Putin escalates his terror campaign against innocents? Seriously do you really believe that or are you just playing devil's advocate?

If you believe that, do you have any evidence whatsoever? Heck, I'd take even a Kremlin poll!

---

I disagree with your premises. Ukraine is losing the war, and Western aid is tapering off. As for civilian casualties, that's probably a wash. Zelensky was killing Ukrainians long before Putin invaded, and he shows no sign of letting up. Ukrainian forces have been shelling civilian targets in Donetsk throughout the war, for example.

---

Fine, but do you believe Ukrainian sentiment has changed? And, if so, do you have any supporting evidence?

---

I don't think there's enough evidence to say one way or another. It's practically impossible to get good data from eastern Ukraine, which is historically more pro-Russian. One thing we do know is that the country was united behind the Minsk Agreement when they elected Zelensky. The deal that was being negotiated early in the war would have had a similar result, so there's no reason to think the people wouldn't have accepted it.

This Elon hate going on from the left is ridiculous. The guy is building a satellite network for our military and people are complaining he didn't want to risk his own life to bomb Russia.

I think there is less than 10% chance the US government didn't make this decision for him anyways.

Redbrickbear said:

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ATL Bear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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ATL Bear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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ATL Bear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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ATL Bear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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ATL Bear said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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trey3216 said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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trey3216 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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Bear8084 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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Bear8084 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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sombear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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whiterock said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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sombear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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sombear said:

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KaiBear said:

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Wonder how many more Ukranians were killed last week in Biden's proxy war with Russia ? How many more crippled for life, how many more had their homes destroyed ?

All so Ukraine could accept US prodding to join NATO.

The same NATO that, just 2 months ago, turned down even the prospect of Ukranian membership into their organization.

Don't look too closely into US meddling all you internet soldiers.

Might force you to finally accept all the Ukranian blood on our hands.

---

95% of Ukrainians support the total war effort. Quite elitist of you to suggest we're making/forcing their decisions.

---

You can not possibly know that.....hell Ukraine is not even allowed to have elections right now by the Regime in Kyiv.

We have zero idea what average Ukrainians thinks about total war or about being bayonet marched into conscription.

Maybe vast majorities support the total war...maybe they don't

It benefits Washington to put out the narrative that average Ukrainians really want to fight this war...the same as how it benefits Moscow to put out the narrative that average Russians want to fight this war.

---

There is plenty of evidence on this, and both are true. A strong majority of Ukrainians and Russians support the war, though higher in Ukraine.

---

You named a number....95%

You can't know that and it would be better if you just acknowledged that it is a percentage you pulled out of your butt.

There are lots of young fighting age men trying to get out of both Ukraine and Russia (to avoid this fight) and flee to the other places.

I would be willing to bet my whole life savings that you can't get 95% of Ukrainians to say they support this long war

---

The stream of OSINT on this question is remarkably consistent across all sources - the Russian invasion galvanized Ukrainian nationalism, unified Ukrainian and Russian speaking Ukrainians virtually overnight. Consistent and very high support for territorial integrity, winning the war, expelling Russia, etc..... Over and over. Sustained over long periods of time. There seems to be no quit in the Ukrainians. The war has become a crucible that is transforming the soul of their nation in very positive ways, particularly on the question of unity.

https://news.gallup.com/opinion/gallup/471155/charts-russia-ukraine-war.aspx
https://news.gallup.com/poll/403133/ukrainians-support-fighting-until-victory.aspx
https://www.rferl.org/a/ukrainian-unity-identity-poll-russian-invasion/32001348.html
https://www.iri.org/news/iri-ukraine-poll-shows-strong-confidence-in-president-zelensky-a-surge-in-support-for-nato-membership-russia-should-pay-for-reconstruction/
https://news.gallup.com/topic/country-ukr.aspx (Gallup homepage on Ukraine polling).

You can ignore it if you wish, but incredibly high Ukrainian support for the war is a fact which starkly rebukes a key premise of your perspective the War.

---

[Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty (RFE/RL) is a United States government funded media organization that broadcasts…]

Is this the part where we just post articles uncritically from government funded propaganda outfits?

---

As usual, I suggest reading the article. It's not their poll. They were reporting on a poll conducted by a respected independent pollster that historically has released polls unfavorable to the Ukraine administration.

I think we all agree you take any poll with at least some grain of salt, but all the data is consistent and has been since late 2022.

---

That's far from clear. The oldest of those polls was more than a year ago, and the newest was months before the counter-offensive began. At least in America there's evidence that opinions are changing. In Ukraine it's obviously hard to tell since opposing government policy can get you kidnapped, tortured, or worse. They just recently murdered a Russian war blogger, who was on a hit list along with prominent Europeans, Americans, and thousands of journalists.

Just in case anyone forgot that we're supporting a right-wing terrorist regime.

---

Doubling down on the RU propaganda today I see. Must've been a riveting episode of Solovyov last night.

And trying to pass off RU war bloggers as some innocents when they command their own troops and help load heavy artillery is quite stupid. I would say even for you vatnik, but you continue to show your stupidity in this in every post. Almost to the point of comedy now.

---

So it's "propaganda," but you admit it happened and try to justify it.

---

Lol I'm not the one defending actual combatants passing off as "war bloggers". Maybe they shouldn't film themselves sighting and loading artillery and bragging about leading troops.

---

He was giving a talk at a cafe in St. Petersburg. Two dozen people were hospitalized from the explosion.

This is how your pals defend free speech and "democracy."

---

I hope the CIA is monitoring your shlt and you get caught monetarily supporting that criminal state and put away for it.

---

Trey needs some bumper stickers for his new car..."I ****ing love the CIA", "if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear", "Print the money baby and send it to Kyvi"

---

No love for it whatsoever. But Sam has gone from being a reasonable person to overtly and ostensibly in support of an autocratic/fascist regime. So much so that I wouldn't be surprised if he was actually monetarily supportive of their efforts.

---

We can stop supporting fascist regimes right now, starting with Ukraine.

---

Russia made them fascist...

---

The Russian slavs, who fought the fascist axis powers in World War II, while losing 27 million people during the war (including 8.7 million military and 19 million civilians) made the Ukrainians fascist?

God dang we have some big brain boys on this board.






*p.s.

Neither the modern Ukrainians nor Russians are actual fascists…get a dictionary and look up the term

---

What the hell does the Soviets fighting the Nazis 3 generations ago have to do with the Mussolini like regime that Putin runs in Russia? He's even co-opted the Russian orthodox church the same way Mussolini did with the Catholic Church. Nationalism, the state first….

---

Is this the part again where we have go down the rabbit hole of explaining how the current regime in Moscow is not in fact fascist?

In either it's classical Italian or Germanic/Nazi flavors…born of the veterans movements in chaos of post World War I Europe.

The current Putinist government is an oligarchy (that yes uses nationalism and a close relationship to the main Church of the Russian people) to establish its rule.

But for a long list of reasons it is not fascist.

[Kershaw argues that the difference between fascism and other forms of right-wing authoritarianism in the Interwar period is that the latter generally aimed "to conserve the existing social order", whereas fascism was "revolutionary" and "futuristic", seeking to change society completely and obtain "total commitment" from the population.]

[Historian Emilio Gentile has defined fascism as "a completely modern political phenomenon, revolutionary, anti-liberal and anti-Marxist, organized in a militia party with a totalitarian conception of politics and the State, an activist and anti-theoretical ideology, with a mythical, virilistic and anti-hedonistic foundation, sacralized as a secular religion, which affirms the absolute primacy of the nation…hierarchically organized in a corporate state…aimed at creating a new order and a new civilization".]

Putin is not trying to create a new civilization. He is not leading a revolutionary ideological party made up of war veterans, he is not trying to create a command economy, nor create a new secular religion for the masses.

His cabal around him is mostly concerned with using the existing State apparatus to make themselves wealthy (that is kleptocracy) and to the extent that the regime does believe in Russian great power nationalism…that does not make them fascist for sharing 1 similar political commitment.

After all Putin and Stalin share/shared similar ideas about Russia as great power spanning Eurasian….and neither of them are fascists.

Heck in modern North Korea, kim jong un and the communist Workers party of Korea leans heavily on Korean nationalism to legitimize its rule….yet it's of course not fascist…it's literally communist

---

Read less dictionaries and Wikis and analyze reality. The parallels are profound….

---

The parallels are actually not profound.

And Hell no I will not stop reading dictionaries….you should try it some time.

You are equating Russian nationalism (and it seems ultra-nationalism in general) with fascism.

A stupid mistake.

A Regime can be communist, monarchist, republican, etc., and embrace a nationalistic and expansionist/aggressive foreign policy.

Other than that the Putinist regime is classically oligarchic and kleptocratic….not fascist

*p.s. Peter Hitchens (who has lived in Moscow before) explains how Putin and his regime are actually trying to create an apolitical populace. Of course fascism (like communism) was trying to create a hyper-political population.

The other aspect of fascism (and communism) that stands out is that it is completely totalitarian. It cares at the deepest level what you think and believe. And is determine to "re-educate" you.

Putin's regime could care less what you actually believe in private…as long as you don't stand up in public and make problems for them. That is classically dictatorial (not totalitarian)

---

Russian ultra nationalism, combined with their totalitarian tendencies, political suppression, and corporatist economic structure align clearly with Fascism. Putin literally operates above party and political structure and is the centerpiece of power and authority in the country.

---

Take out Putin from your statement and insert President Xi jinping and it works almost word for word.

Yet Xi is of course not fascist but a committed Communist.

You are committed to associating Putinism with early 20th century fascism…yet they are quite obviously different political systems/ruling regimes

---

China has a very different economic structure, and at least Xi answers to the Communist party….

---

Incorrect again.

Xi has sidelined the party apparatus and leadership and now rules alone at the top.

Similar to how the Kim family rules their communist hermit kingdom in N. Korea.


He is also attempting to create a cult of personality like Stalin and Mao did.

---

You need more updated information. And leave it to people who have vested interests in what's going on there and not Internet/Twitter banter.

Sam Lowry said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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ATL Bear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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ATL Bear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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ATL Bear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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ATL Bear said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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trey3216 said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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trey3216 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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Bear8084 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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Bear8084 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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sombear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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whiterock said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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sombear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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sombear said:

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KaiBear said:

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Wonder how many more Ukranians were killed last week in Biden's proxy war with Russia ? How many more crippled for life, how many more had their homes destroyed ?

All so Ukraine could accept US prodding to join NATO.

The same NATO that, just 2 months ago, turned down even the prospect of Ukranian membership into their organization.

Don't look too closely into US meddling all you internet soldiers.

Might force you to finally accept all the Ukranian blood on our hands.

---

95% of Ukrainians support the total war effort. Quite elitist of you to suggest we're making/forcing their decisions.

---

You can not possibly know that.....hell Ukraine is not even allowed to have elections right now by the Regime in Kyiv.

We have zero idea what average Ukrainians thinks about total war or about being bayonet marched into conscription.

Maybe vast majorities support the total war...maybe they don't

It benefits Washington to put out the narrative that average Ukrainians really want to fight this war...the same as how it benefits Moscow to put out the narrative that average Russians want to fight this war.

---

There is plenty of evidence on this, and both are true. A strong majority of Ukrainians and Russians support the war, though higher in Ukraine.

---

You named a number....95%

You can't know that and it would be better if you just acknowledged that it is a percentage you pulled out of your butt.

There are lots of young fighting age men trying to get out of both Ukraine and Russia (to avoid this fight) and flee to the other places.

I would be willing to bet my whole life savings that you can't get 95% of Ukrainians to say they support this long war

---

The stream of OSINT on this question is remarkably consistent across all sources - the Russian invasion galvanized Ukrainian nationalism, unified Ukrainian and Russian speaking Ukrainians virtually overnight. Consistent and very high support for territorial integrity, winning the war, expelling Russia, etc..... Over and over. Sustained over long periods of time. There seems to be no quit in the Ukrainians. The war has become a crucible that is transforming the soul of their nation in very positive ways, particularly on the question of unity.

https://news.gallup.com/opinion/gallup/471155/charts-russia-ukraine-war.aspx
https://news.gallup.com/poll/403133/ukrainians-support-fighting-until-victory.aspx
https://www.rferl.org/a/ukrainian-unity-identity-poll-russian-invasion/32001348.html
https://www.iri.org/news/iri-ukraine-poll-shows-strong-confidence-in-president-zelensky-a-surge-in-support-for-nato-membership-russia-should-pay-for-reconstruction/
https://news.gallup.com/topic/country-ukr.aspx (Gallup homepage on Ukraine polling).

You can ignore it if you wish, but incredibly high Ukrainian support for the war is a fact which starkly rebukes a key premise of your perspective the War.

---

[Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty (RFE/RL) is a United States government funded media organization that broadcasts%85]

Is this the part where we just post articles uncritically from government funded propaganda outfits?

---

As usual, I suggest reading the article. It's not their poll. They were reporting on a poll conducted by a respected independent pollster that historically has released polls unfavorable to the Ukraine administration.

I think we all agree you take any poll with at least some grain of salt, but all the data is consistent and has been since late 2022.

---

That's far from clear. The oldest of those polls was more than a year ago, and the newest was months before the counter-offensive began. At least in America there's evidence that opinions are changing. In Ukraine it's obviously hard to tell since opposing government policy can get you kidnapped, tortured, or worse. They just recently murdered a Russian war blogger, who was on a hit list along with prominent Europeans, Americans, and thousands of journalists.

Just in case anyone forgot that we're supporting a right-wing terrorist regime.

---

Doubling down on the RU propaganda today I see. Must've been a riveting episode of Solovyov last night.

And trying to pass off RU war bloggers as some innocents when they command their own troops and help load heavy artillery is quite stupid. I would say even for you vatnik, but you continue to show your stupidity in this in every post. Almost to the point of comedy now.

---

So it's "propaganda," but you admit it happened and try to justify it.

---

Lol I'm not the one defending actual combatants passing off as "war bloggers". Maybe they shouldn't film themselves sighting and loading artillery and bragging about leading troops.

---

He was giving a talk at a cafe in St. Petersburg. Two dozen people were hospitalized from the explosion.

This is how your pals defend free speech and "democracy."

---

I hope the CIA is monitoring your shlt and you get caught monetarily supporting that criminal state and put away for it.

---

Trey needs some bumper stickers for his new car..."I ****ing love the CIA", "if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear", "Print the money baby and send it to Kyvi"

---

No love for it whatsoever. But Sam has gone from being a reasonable person to overtly and ostensibly in support of an autocratic/fascist regime. So much so that I wouldn't be surprised if he was actually monetarily supportive of their efforts.

---

We can stop supporting fascist regimes right now, starting with Ukraine.

---

Russia made them fascist...

---

The Russian slavs, who fought the fascist axis powers in World War II, while losing 27 million people during the war (including 8.7 million military and 19 million civilians) made the Ukrainians fascist?

God dang we have some big brain boys on this board.






*p.s.

Neither the modern Ukrainians nor Russians are actual fascists%85get a dictionary and look up the term

---

What the hell does the Soviets fighting the Nazis 3 generations ago have to do with the Mussolini like regime that Putin runs in Russia? He's even co-opted the Russian orthodox church the same way Mussolini did with the Catholic Church. Nationalism, the state first%85.

---

Is this the part again where we have go down the rabbit hole of explaining how the current regime in Moscow is not in fact fascist?

In either it's classical Italian or Germanic/Nazi flavors%85born of the veterans movements in chaos of post World War I Europe.

The current Putinist government is an oligarchy (that yes uses nationalism and a close relationship to the main Church of the Russian people) to establish its rule.

But for a long list of reasons it is not fascist.

[Kershaw argues that the difference between fascism and other forms of right-wing authoritarianism in the Interwar period is that the latter generally aimed "to conserve the existing social order", whereas fascism was "revolutionary" and "futuristic", seeking to change society completely and obtain "total commitment" from the population.]

[Historian Emilio Gentile has defined fascism as "a completely modern political phenomenon, revolutionary, anti-liberal and anti-Marxist, organized in a militia party with a totalitarian conception of politics and the State, an activist and anti-theoretical ideology, with a mythical, virilistic and anti-hedonistic foundation, sacralized as a secular religion, which affirms the absolute primacy of the nation%85hierarchically organized in a corporate state%85aimed at creating a new order and a new civilization".]

Putin is not trying to create a new civilization. He is not leading a revolutionary ideological party made up of war veterans, he is not trying to create a command economy, nor create a new secular religion for the masses.

His cabal around him is mostly concerned with using the existing State apparatus to make themselves wealthy (that is kleptocracy) and to the extent that the regime does believe in Russian great power nationalism%85that does not make them fascist for sharing 1 similar political commitment.

After all Putin and Stalin share/shared similar ideas about Russia as great power spanning Eurasian%85.and neither of them are fascists.

Heck in modern North Korea, kim jong un and the communist Workers party of Korea leans heavily on Korean nationalism to legitimize its rule%85.yet it's of course not fascist%85it's literally communist

---

Read less dictionaries and Wikis and analyze reality. The parallels are profound%85.

---

The parallels are actually not profound.

And Hell no I will not stop reading dictionaries%85.you should try it some time.

You are equating Russian nationalism (and it seems ultra-nationalism in general) with fascism.

A stupid mistake.

A Regime can be communist, monarchist, republican, etc., and embrace a nationalistic and expansionist/aggressive foreign policy.

Other than that the Putinist regime is classically oligarchic and kleptocratic%85.not fascist

*p.s. Peter Hitchens (who has lived in Moscow before) explains how Putin and his regime are actually trying to create an apolitical populace. Of course fascism (like communism) was trying to create a hyper-political population.

The other aspect of fascism (and communism) that stands out is that it is completely totalitarian. It cares at the deepest level what you think and believe. And is determine to "re-educate" you.

Putin's regime could care less what you actually believe in private%85as long as you don't stand up in public and make problems for them. That is classically dictatorial (not totalitarian)

---

Russian ultra nationalism, combined with their totalitarian tendencies, political suppression, and corporatist economic structure align clearly with Fascism. Putin literally operates above party and political structure and is the centerpiece of power and authority in the country.

---

Take out Putin from your statement and insert President Xi jinping and it works almost word for word.

---

Or any Russian czar from the last 500 years. Too many Americans just can't process the idea that anyone would want a government different from ours.

---

Our government has been irrevocably compromised by lobbyists and insider trading.

Not sure which 'democracies' have avoided such pitfalls.

KaiBear said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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ATL Bear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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ATL Bear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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ATL Bear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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ATL Bear said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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trey3216 said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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trey3216 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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Bear8084 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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Bear8084 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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sombear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

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sombear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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sombear said:

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KaiBear said:

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Wonder how many more Ukranians were killed last week in Biden's proxy war with Russia ? How many more crippled for life, how many more had their homes destroyed ?

All so Ukraine could accept US prodding to join NATO.

The same NATO that, just 2 months ago, turned down even the prospect of Ukranian membership into their organization.

Don't look too closely into US meddling all you internet soldiers.

Might force you to finally accept all the Ukranian blood on our hands.

---

95% of Ukrainians support the total war effort. Quite elitist of you to suggest we're making/forcing their decisions.

---

You can not possibly know that.....hell Ukraine is not even allowed to have elections right now by the Regime in Kyiv.

We have zero idea what average Ukrainians thinks about total war or about being bayonet marched into conscription.

Maybe vast majorities support the total war...maybe they don't

It benefits Washington to put out the narrative that average Ukrainians really want to fight this war...the same as how it benefits Moscow to put out the narrative that average Russians want to fight this war.

---

There is plenty of evidence on this, and both are true. A strong majority of Ukrainians and Russians support the war, though higher in Ukraine.

---

You named a number....95%

You can't know that and it would be better if you just acknowledged that it is a percentage you pulled out of your butt.

There are lots of young fighting age men trying to get out of both Ukraine and Russia (to avoid this fight) and flee to the other places.

I would be willing to bet my whole life savings that you can't get 95% of Ukrainians to say they support this long war

---

The stream of OSINT on this question is remarkably consistent across all sources - the Russian invasion galvanized Ukrainian nationalism, unified Ukrainian and Russian speaking Ukrainians virtually overnight. Consistent and very high support for territorial integrity, winning the war, expelling Russia, etc..... Over and over. Sustained over long periods of time. There seems to be no quit in the Ukrainians. The war has become a crucible that is transforming the soul of their nation in very positive ways, particularly on the question of unity.

https://news.gallup.com/opinion/gallup/471155/charts-russia-ukraine-war.aspx
https://news.gallup.com/poll/403133/ukrainians-support-fighting-until-victory.aspx
https://www.rferl.org/a/ukrainian-unity-identity-poll-russian-invasion/32001348.html
https://www.iri.org/news/iri-ukraine-poll-shows-strong-confidence-in-president-zelensky-a-surge-in-support-for-nato-membership-russia-should-pay-for-reconstruction/
https://news.gallup.com/topic/country-ukr.aspx (Gallup homepage on Ukraine polling).

You can ignore it if you wish, but incredibly high Ukrainian support for the war is a fact which starkly rebukes a key premise of your perspective the War.

---

[Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty (RFE/RL) is a United States government funded media organization that broadcasts%85]

Is this the part where we just post articles uncritically from government funded propaganda outfits?

---

As usual, I suggest reading the article. It's not their poll. They were reporting on a poll conducted by a respected independent pollster that historically has released polls unfavorable to the Ukraine administration.

I think we all agree you take any poll with at least some grain of salt, but all the data is consistent and has been since late 2022.

---

That's far from clear. The oldest of those polls was more than a year ago, and the newest was months before the counter-offensive began. At least in America there's evidence that opinions are changing. In Ukraine it's obviously hard to tell since opposing government policy can get you kidnapped, tortured, or worse. They just recently murdered a Russian war blogger, who was on a hit list along with prominent Europeans, Americans, and thousands of journalists.

Just in case anyone forgot that we're supporting a right-wing terrorist regime.

---

Doubling down on the RU propaganda today I see. Must've been a riveting episode of Solovyov last night.

And trying to pass off RU war bloggers as some innocents when they command their own troops and help load heavy artillery is quite stupid. I would say even for you vatnik, but you continue to show your stupidity in this in every post. Almost to the point of comedy now.

---

So it's "propaganda," but you admit it happened and try to justify it.

---

Lol I'm not the one defending actual combatants passing off as "war bloggers". Maybe they shouldn't film themselves sighting and loading artillery and bragging about leading troops.

---

He was giving a talk at a cafe in St. Petersburg. Two dozen people were hospitalized from the explosion.

This is how your pals defend free speech and "democracy."

---

I hope the CIA is monitoring your shlt and you get caught monetarily supporting that criminal state and put away for it.

---

Trey needs some bumper stickers for his new car..."I ****ing love the CIA", "if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear", "Print the money baby and send it to Kyvi"

---

No love for it whatsoever. But Sam has gone from being a reasonable person to overtly and ostensibly in support of an autocratic/fascist regime. So much so that I wouldn't be surprised if he was actually monetarily supportive of their efforts.

---

We can stop supporting fascist regimes right now, starting with Ukraine.

---

Russia made them fascist...

---

The Russian slavs, who fought the fascist axis powers in World War II, while losing 27 million people during the war (including 8.7 million military and 19 million civilians) made the Ukrainians fascist?

God dang we have some big brain boys on this board.






*p.s.

Neither the modern Ukrainians nor Russians are actual fascists%85get a dictionary and look up the term

---

What the hell does the Soviets fighting the Nazis 3 generations ago have to do with the Mussolini like regime that Putin runs in Russia? He's even co-opted the Russian orthodox church the same way Mussolini did with the Catholic Church. Nationalism, the state first%85.

---

Is this the part again where we have go down the rabbit hole of explaining how the current regime in Moscow is not in fact fascist?

In either it's classical Italian or Germanic/Nazi flavors%85born of the veterans movements in chaos of post World War I Europe.

The current Putinist government is an oligarchy (that yes uses nationalism and a close relationship to the main Church of the Russian people) to establish its rule.

But for a long list of reasons it is not fascist.

[Kershaw argues that the difference between fascism and other forms of right-wing authoritarianism in the Interwar period is that the latter generally aimed "to conserve the existing social order", whereas fascism was "revolutionary" and "futuristic", seeking to change society completely and obtain "total commitment" from the population.]

[Historian Emilio Gentile has defined fascism as "a completely modern political phenomenon, revolutionary, anti-liberal and anti-Marxist, organized in a militia party with a totalitarian conception of politics and the State, an activist and anti-theoretical ideology, with a mythical, virilistic and anti-hedonistic foundation, sacralized as a secular religion, which affirms the absolute primacy of the nation%85hierarchically organized in a corporate state%85aimed at creating a new order and a new civilization".]

Putin is not trying to create a new civilization. He is not leading a revolutionary ideological party made up of war veterans, he is not trying to create a command economy, nor create a new secular religion for the masses.

His cabal around him is mostly concerned with using the existing State apparatus to make themselves wealthy (that is kleptocracy) and to the extent that the regime does believe in Russian great power nationalism%85that does not make them fascist for sharing 1 similar political commitment.

After all Putin and Stalin share/shared similar ideas about Russia as great power spanning Eurasian%85.and neither of them are fascists.

Heck in modern North Korea, kim jong un and the communist Workers party of Korea leans heavily on Korean nationalism to legitimize its rule%85.yet it's of course not fascist%85it's literally communist

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Read less dictionaries and Wikis and analyze reality. The parallels are profound%85.

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The parallels are actually not profound.

And Hell no I will not stop reading dictionaries%85.you should try it some time.

You are equating Russian nationalism (and it seems ultra-nationalism in general) with fascism.

A stupid mistake.

A Regime can be communist, monarchist, republican, etc., and embrace a nationalistic and expansionist/aggressive foreign policy.

Other than that the Putinist regime is classically oligarchic and kleptocratic%85.not fascist

*p.s. Peter Hitchens (who has lived in Moscow before) explains how Putin and his regime are actually trying to create an apolitical populace. Of course fascism (like communism) was trying to create a hyper-political population.

The other aspect of fascism (and communism) that stands out is that it is completely totalitarian. It cares at the deepest level what you think and believe. And is determine to "re-educate" you.

Putin's regime could care less what you actually believe in private%85as long as you don't stand up in public and make problems for them. That is classically dictatorial (not totalitarian)

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Russian ultra nationalism, combined with their totalitarian tendencies, political suppression, and corporatist economic structure align clearly with Fascism. Putin literally operates above party and political structure and is the centerpiece of power and authority in the country.

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Take out Putin from your statement and insert President Xi jinping and it works almost word for word.

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Or any Russian czar from the last 500 years. Too many Americans just can't process the idea that anyone would want a government different from ours.

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Our government has been irrevocably compromised by lobbyists and insider trading.

Not sure which 'democracies' have avoided such pitfalls.

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Bingo

We are in the late sage empire part of our life cycle.

Of course not one of our competitors is in any better position or can take advantage of the situation.

So this could go on for a long long time.

sombear said:

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95% of Ukrainians support the total war effort. Quite elitist of you to suggest we're making/forcing their decisions.

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43% of Ukrainians supported the total war effort so much that they left the country.

Now Zelenskyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy is asking NATO governments to round conscientious objectors up and deport them back to Ukraine so that they can be drafted.

But reading this thread has made it clear that there's a significant number of government-americans working for the deep state with Baylor degrees.

Sam Lowry said:

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whiterock said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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DIA apparently thinks it'll take 6wks or so longer than I assessed a few posts back

US Defense Intelligence Agency Director of Analysis Trent Maul stated that there is a “realistic possibility” that Ukrainian forces will break through the entire Russian defense in southern #Ukraine by the end of 2023, while a Ukrainian source suggested that upcoming Russian… https://t.co/LKERHGUdfi

— ISW (@TheStudyofWar) September 8, 2023

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I'll bet they do. Get used to back-pedaling now...it'll come in real handy these next few months.

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Russia has clearly decided that the Orkhiv salient is at the breaking point, a strategic threat, and has pulled all available units (all badly depleted far below western standards of combat ineffectiveness) from elsewhere in the line and thrown them into the breach, where they will get mauled by Uke arty. It is a bad choice. But it is less bad than the others before them, like leaving a paper-thin line everywhere else.

denouement approaches.

russia is moving everything they can to try and just hold ground.. but this is going to just bring more troops into the range of ukraine artillery. pic.twitter.com/KKmV99QSAn

— david D. (@secretsqrl123) September 8, 2023

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Well, it's clearly been the Ukes' main focus on the southern front for a while. Whether that was by design or because of their abject failure at Piatykhatky, who can say? I still don't know why you think the Russians are struggling to man their defenses when there's no real sign of it and they probably have four times as many troops in the theater at this point.

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The Urozhaine axis and Bakhmut were equally intense for most of June-August. Uke did not throw a heavy brigade at Orkhiv until a couple of weeks ago.

It doesn't matter how many troops Russia has IN THEATER. It matters how many they have where they need them. Confirming what I've stated several times, Russia has no reserves in theater. It's having to go pull units off the line elsewhere to throw into the breach at Verbove. They have thrown several badly depleted units into the battle for Verbove, where they are going to get chewed up further. And of course, that will make Russia more vulnerable where the units were withdrawn.

Ukraine is using small unit tactics to take the trenches, then roll them up laterally, then bring forward heavy equipment. They've occupied the 2nd & 3rd layers at Verbove and have widened the area of control sufficiently to bring up heavy equipment. Once they take Verbove, Russians will likely have to withdraw from trenches to the north of town, which should widen the eastern flank of the salient enough for Ukraine to advance artillery and begin barrage of Tokmak. That will restrict Russian supply lines to the coastal road, which will make it easier to target effectively with ATACMS which are about to be released to Ukraine, per reporting this week.

Yes, Biden is slow-walking the aid. We will not even get everything approved for 2023 delivered.

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There's just no evidence for what you're saying. Both sides move units around all the time, as you should expect. Russia maintains a troop advantage ranging from about 1.5/1 to better than 3/1 at every significant point. You are right about one thing -- Ukes are still wasting lives and ammo in their symbolic battle for Bakhmut, to the growing frustration of their Western advisers.

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LOL. You are making stuff up.

Widely reported this week that Russia created a new command. Here is the map of its AO. Aren't the implications obvious?

the russians are trying to rebuild the southern army..
new HQ, 18th army
new div 70th
all the units are made up of newer troops and have a lack of equipment and manpower... pic.twitter.com/jfEv9mw0p2

— david D. (@secretsqrl123) September 9, 2023

Realitybites said:

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sombear said:

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95% of Ukrainians support the total war effort. Quite elitist of you to suggest we're making/forcing their decisions.

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43% of Ukrainians supported the total war effort so much that they left the country.

Now Zelenskyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy is asking NATO governments to round conscientious objectors up and deport them back to Ukraine so that they can be drafted.

But reading this thread has made it clear that there's a significant number of government-americans working for the deep state with Baylor degrees.

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LOL the tinfoil hat is on a little tight.

Realitybites said:

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sombear said:

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95% of Ukrainians support the total war effort. Quite elitist of you to suggest we're making/forcing their decisions.

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43% of Ukrainians supported the total war effort so much that they left the country.

Now Zelenskyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy is asking NATO governments to round conscientious objectors up and deport them back to Ukraine so that they can be drafted.

But reading this thread has made it clear that there's a significant number of government-americans working for the deep state with Baylor degrees.

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It's about 10%, which is low for an invaded country during war in that country.

What is your source for Zelensky asking NATO to send folks back?

And why so many Ys?

whiterock said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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whiterock said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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Quote:

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Quote:

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DIA apparently thinks it'll take 6wks or so longer than I assessed a few posts back

US Defense Intelligence Agency Director of Analysis Trent Maul stated that there is a “realistic possibility” that Ukrainian forces will break through the entire Russian defense in southern #Ukraine by the end of 2023, while a Ukrainian source suggested that upcoming Russian… https://t.co/LKERHGUdfi

— ISW (@TheStudyofWar) September 8, 2023

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I'll bet they do. Get used to back-pedaling now...it'll come in real handy these next few months.

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Russia has clearly decided that the Orkhiv salient is at the breaking point, a strategic threat, and has pulled all available units (all badly depleted far below western standards of combat ineffectiveness) from elsewhere in the line and thrown them into the breach, where they will get mauled by Uke arty. It is a bad choice. But it is less bad than the others before them, like leaving a paper-thin line everywhere else.

denouement approaches.

russia is moving everything they can to try and just hold ground.. but this is going to just bring more troops into the range of ukraine artillery. pic.twitter.com/KKmV99QSAn

— david D. (@secretsqrl123) September 8, 2023

---

Well, it's clearly been the Ukes' main focus on the southern front for a while. Whether that was by design or because of their abject failure at Piatykhatky, who can say? I still don't know why you think the Russians are struggling to man their defenses when there's no real sign of it and they probably have four times as many troops in the theater at this point.

---

The Urozhaine axis and Bakhmut were equally intense for most of June-August. Uke did not throw a heavy brigade at Orkhiv until a couple of weeks ago.

It doesn't matter how many troops Russia has IN THEATER. It matters how many they have where they need them. Confirming what I've stated several times, Russia has no reserves in theater. It's having to go pull units off the line elsewhere to throw into the breach at Verbove. They have thrown several badly depleted units into the battle for Verbove, where they are going to get chewed up further. And of course, that will make Russia more vulnerable where the units were withdrawn.

Ukraine is using small unit tactics to take the trenches, then roll them up laterally, then bring forward heavy equipment. They've occupied the 2nd & 3rd layers at Verbove and have widened the area of control sufficiently to bring up heavy equipment. Once they take Verbove, Russians will likely have to withdraw from trenches to the north of town, which should widen the eastern flank of the salient enough for Ukraine to advance artillery and begin barrage of Tokmak. That will restrict Russian supply lines to the coastal road, which will make it easier to target effectively with ATACMS which are about to be released to Ukraine, per reporting this week.

Yes, Biden is slow-walking the aid. We will not even get everything approved for 2023 delivered.

---

There's just no evidence for what you're saying. Both sides move units around all the time, as you should expect. Russia maintains a troop advantage ranging from about 1.5/1 to better than 3/1 at every significant point. You are right about one thing -- Ukes are still wasting lives and ammo in their symbolic battle for Bakhmut, to the growing frustration of their Western advisers.

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LOL. You are making stuff up.

Widely reported this week that Russia created a new command. Here is the map of its AO. Aren't the implications obvious?

the russians are trying to rebuild the southern army..
new HQ, 18th army
new div 70th
all the units are made up of newer troops and have a lack of equipment and manpower... pic.twitter.com/jfEv9mw0p2

— david D. (@secretsqrl123) September 9, 2023

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You're cherry-picking info and wildly over-interpreting it, so I guess the obvious implication is...it's another day that ends in "y?"

This woman should be a waitress at Denny's instead she's running American foreign policy https://t.co/ywTUkJ2VXr

— Semmelweis (@Semmelweis7) September 10, 2023

Sam Lowry said:

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whiterock said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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whiterock said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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Quote:

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Quote:

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Quote:

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DIA apparently thinks it'll take 6wks or so longer than I assessed a few posts back

US Defense Intelligence Agency Director of Analysis Trent Maul stated that there is a “realistic possibility” that Ukrainian forces will break through the entire Russian defense in southern #Ukraine by the end of 2023, while a Ukrainian source suggested that upcoming Russian… https://t.co/LKERHGUdfi

— ISW (@TheStudyofWar) September 8, 2023

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I'll bet they do. Get used to back-pedaling now...it'll come in real handy these next few months.

---

Russia has clearly decided that the Orkhiv salient is at the breaking point, a strategic threat, and has pulled all available units (all badly depleted far below western standards of combat ineffectiveness) from elsewhere in the line and thrown them into the breach, where they will get mauled by Uke arty. It is a bad choice. But it is less bad than the others before them, like leaving a paper-thin line everywhere else.

denouement approaches.

russia is moving everything they can to try and just hold ground.. but this is going to just bring more troops into the range of ukraine artillery. pic.twitter.com/KKmV99QSAn

— david D. (@secretsqrl123) September 8, 2023

---

Well, it's clearly been the Ukes' main focus on the southern front for a while. Whether that was by design or because of their abject failure at Piatykhatky, who can say? I still don't know why you think the Russians are struggling to man their defenses when there's no real sign of it and they probably have four times as many troops in the theater at this point.

---

The Urozhaine axis and Bakhmut were equally intense for most of June-August. Uke did not throw a heavy brigade at Orkhiv until a couple of weeks ago.

It doesn't matter how many troops Russia has IN THEATER. It matters how many they have where they need them. Confirming what I've stated several times, Russia has no reserves in theater. It's having to go pull units off the line elsewhere to throw into the breach at Verbove. They have thrown several badly depleted units into the battle for Verbove, where they are going to get chewed up further. And of course, that will make Russia more vulnerable where the units were withdrawn.

Ukraine is using small unit tactics to take the trenches, then roll them up laterally, then bring forward heavy equipment. They've occupied the 2nd & 3rd layers at Verbove and have widened the area of control sufficiently to bring up heavy equipment. Once they take Verbove, Russians will likely have to withdraw from trenches to the north of town, which should widen the eastern flank of the salient enough for Ukraine to advance artillery and begin barrage of Tokmak. That will restrict Russian supply lines to the coastal road, which will make it easier to target effectively with ATACMS which are about to be released to Ukraine, per reporting this week.

Yes, Biden is slow-walking the aid. We will not even get everything approved for 2023 delivered.

---

There's just no evidence for what you're saying. Both sides move units around all the time, as you should expect. Russia maintains a troop advantage ranging from about 1.5/1 to better than 3/1 at every significant point. You are right about one thing -- Ukes are still wasting lives and ammo in their symbolic battle for Bakhmut, to the growing frustration of their Western advisers.

---

LOL. You are making stuff up.

Widely reported this week that Russia created a new command. Here is the map of its AO. Aren't the implications obvious?

the russians are trying to rebuild the southern army..
new HQ, 18th army
new div 70th
all the units are made up of newer troops and have a lack of equipment and manpower... pic.twitter.com/jfEv9mw0p2

— david D. (@secretsqrl123) September 9, 2023

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You're cherry-picking info and wildly over-interpreting it, so I guess the obvious implication is...it's another day that ends in "y?"

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I'll let the irony of the cherry picking comment stand on its own and just rephrase: Why would Russia need to create a new command for the Crimea and its approaches?

Think it thru......

This will likely get buried quickly, but this is a fascinating interview with a US trainer, who spent time in Unraine, about problems with the Russian military.

Things are going well yall!! We're not even hurt!!!!

-Sam

The Russian Central Bank said it will sell 150 billion roubles' worth of forex in total between Sept. 14 and Sept. 22 to prop up the Ruble artificially, equating to 21.4 billion roubles a day, up from 2.3 billion roubles previously.

It linked the move to the planned redemption… pic.twitter.com/9GdhimVSmq

— Beefeater (@Beefeater_Fella) September 12, 2023

Quote:

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bought into the very Fascist approach of corrupted corporatism with politically aligned oligarchs using state force to crush those in opposition to it

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And absolutely nothing about our economy resembles this? All those public private partnerships that DC keeps touting?

The reality is that Vladimir Putin didn't just wake up one morning and decide to invade Ukraine. Russia's actions are a logical respone to a post coup Ukrainian government that was violating the human rights of ethnic Russians in the eastern half of the country and the eastward expansion of a military alliance that has outlived its usefulness.

Realitybites said:

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Quote:

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bought into the very Fascist approach of corrupted corporatism with politically aligned oligarchs using state force to crush those in opposition to it

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And absolutely nothing about our economy resembles this? All those public private partnerships that DC keeps touting?

The reality is that Vladimir Putin didn't just wake up one morning and decide to invade Ukraine. Russia's actions are a logical respone to a post coup Ukrainian government that was violating the human rights of ethnic Russians in the eastern half of the country and the eastward expansion of a military alliance that has outlived its usefulness.

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Putin's been attacking Ukraine for 20 years, and he cares nothing about "ethnic Russians". But keep waving the pom poms.