Interesting … our Corp intel reported 2 weeks ago and now ISW and others reporting that Putin will not entertain any kind of settlement discussions. His goal remains to take over all of Ukraine. Neutral parties have approached Putin and he has dismissed them out of hand and made intentions crystal clear.

sombear said:

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Interesting … our Corp intel reported 2 weeks ago and now ISW and others reporting that Putin will not entertain any kind of settlement discussions. His goal remains to take over all of Ukraine. Neutral parties have approached Putin and he has dismissed them out of hand and made intentions crystal clear.

---

Reading that his goal is to literally destroy Ukrainian society and assimilate into Russia for resettlement.

FLBear5630 said:

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sombear said:

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Interesting … our Corp intel reported 2 weeks ago and now ISW and others reporting that Putin will not entertain any kind of settlement discussions. His goal remains to take over all of Ukraine. Neutral parties have approached Putin and he has dismissed them out of hand and made intentions crystal clear.

---

Reading that his goal is to literally destroy Ukrainian society and assimilate into Russia for resettlement.

---

1. Almost certainly not true.

2. Where are they gonna get these large numbers of Russian settlers to re-settle Ukraine? Clone them? They are in the middle of a demographic implosion in Russia with the death rate out stripping the birth rate.

Hell its now pretty common knowledge that even the Nazi's knew they were gonna have a serious problem resettling Ukraine (that was their plan if they won the war) because there were not enough ethnic Germans to do it even back in the 1940s.

3. Putin's plan almost certainly was to get to Kyiv and overthrow the government and install a puppet pro-Russian government like in Belarus. He failed to do that. No destroy Ukraine....just run its government out of the Kremlin

Now its most likely that he is trying to get the best deal he can....keep the lands he has taken in eastern Ukraine...maybe get a guarantee of no NATO membership for the rest of Ukraine.

But its hard to see how he will even get a "no NATO membership" agreement. Kyiv won't go for it (for understandable reasons) and neither will the rest of the Western bloc.

Redbrickbear said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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sombear said:

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Interesting … our Corp intel reported 2 weeks ago and now ISW and others reporting that Putin will not entertain any kind of settlement discussions. His goal remains to take over all of Ukraine. Neutral parties have approached Putin and he has dismissed them out of hand and made intentions crystal clear.

---

Reading that his goal is to literally destroy Ukrainian society and assimilate into Russia for resettlement.

---

1. Almost certainly not true.

2. Where are they gonna get these large numbers of Russian settlers to re-settle Ukraine? Clone them? They are in the middle of a demographic implosion in Russia with the death rate out stripping the birth rate.

Hell its now pretty common knowledge that even the Nazi's knew they were gonna have a serious problem resettling Ukraine (that was their plan if they won the war) because there were not enough ethnic Germans to do it even back in the 1940s.

3. Putin's plan almost certainly was to get to Kyiv and overthrow the government and install a puppet pro-Russian government like in Belarus. He failed to do that. No destroy Ukraine....just run its government out of the Kremlin

Now its most likely that he is trying to get the best deal he can....keep the lands he has taken in eastern Ukraine...maybe get a guarantee of no NATO membership for the rest of Ukraine.

But its hard to see how he will even get a "no NATO membership" agreement. Kyiv won't go for it (for understandable reasons) and neither will the rest of the Western bloc.

---

Futile to try and get into Putin's head from a distance, but, if these reports are accurate, the highlighted portion above is not accurate. The reporting is that multiple "neutrals" and perhaps even Putin allies have approached him about such potential compromises, but he completely shut the door.

sombear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

sombear said:

---

Interesting … our Corp intel reported 2 weeks ago and now ISW and others reporting that Putin will not entertain any kind of settlement discussions. His goal remains to take over all of Ukraine. Neutral parties have approached Putin and he has dismissed them out of hand and made intentions crystal clear.

---

Reading that his goal is to literally destroy Ukrainian society and assimilate into Russia for resettlement.

---

1. Almost certainly not true.

2. Where are they gonna get these large numbers of Russian settlers to re-settle Ukraine? Clone them? They are in the middle of a demographic implosion in Russia with the death rate out stripping the birth rate.

Hell its now pretty common knowledge that even the Nazi's knew they were gonna have a serious problem resettling Ukraine (that was their plan if they won the war) because there were not enough ethnic Germans to do it even back in the 1940s.

3. Putin's plan almost certainly was to get to Kyiv and overthrow the government and install a puppet pro-Russian government like in Belarus. He failed to do that. No destroy Ukraine....just run its government out of the Kremlin

Now its most likely that he is trying to get the best deal he can....keep the lands he has taken in eastern Ukraine...maybe get a guarantee of no NATO membership for the rest of Ukraine.

But it's hard to see how he will even get a "no NATO membership" agreement. Kyiv won't go for it (for understandable reasons) and neither will the rest of the Western bloc.

---

Futile to try and get into Putin's head from a distance, but, if these reports are accurate, the highlighted portion above is not accurate. The reporting is that multiple "neutrals" and perhaps even Putin allies have approached him about such potential compromises, but he completely shut the door.

---

That might be true.

It's not even clear if he could get these compromise positions (some land in east Ukraine, promise of no NATO membership) even if he wanted them.

If he really thinks he can take over all of ukriane or even incorporate the whole country into the Russian Federation with Russian settlers….then maybe the reports of him having dementia are true.

Redbrickbear said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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sombear said:

---

Interesting … our Corp intel reported 2 weeks ago and now ISW and others reporting that Putin will not entertain any kind of settlement discussions. His goal remains to take over all of Ukraine. Neutral parties have approached Putin and he has dismissed them out of hand and made intentions crystal clear.

---

Reading that his goal is to literally destroy Ukrainian society and assimilate into Russia for resettlement.

---

1. Almost certainly not true.

2. Where are they gonna get these large numbers of Russian settlers to re-settle Ukraine? Clone them? They are in the middle of a demographic implosion in Russia with the death rate out stripping the birth rate.

Hell its now pretty common knowledge that even the Nazi's knew they were gonna have a serious problem resettling Ukraine (that was their plan if they won the war) because there were not enough ethnic Germans to do it even back in the 1940s.

3. Putin's plan almost certainly was to get to Kyiv and overthrow the government and install a puppet pro-Russian government like in Belarus. He failed to do that. No destroy Ukraine....just run its government out of the Kremlin

Now its most likely that he is trying to get the best deal he can....keep the lands he has taken in eastern Ukraine...maybe get a guarantee of no NATO membership for the rest of Ukraine.

But its hard to see how he will even get a "no NATO membership" agreement. Kyiv won't go for it (for understandable reasons) and neither will the rest of the Western bloc.

---

I said last spring that the time to negotiate was before the Ukrainian offensive. I'm not surprised that Putin isn't interested now. The only question is how much more Russia takes and how soon.

Not sure if China is one of the "neutrals", but reports are saying they will be pressing for negotiations soon.

Sam Lowry said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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sombear said:

---

Interesting … our Corp intel reported 2 weeks ago and now ISW and others reporting that Putin will not entertain any kind of settlement discussions. His goal remains to take over all of Ukraine. Neutral parties have approached Putin and he has dismissed them out of hand and made intentions crystal clear.

---

Reading that his goal is to literally destroy Ukrainian society and assimilate into Russia for resettlement.

---

1. Almost certainly not true.

2. Where are they gonna get these large numbers of Russian settlers to re-settle Ukraine? Clone them? They are in the middle of a demographic implosion in Russia with the death rate out stripping the birth rate.

Hell its now pretty common knowledge that even the Nazi's knew they were gonna have a serious problem resettling Ukraine (that was their plan if they won the war) because there were not enough ethnic Germans to do it even back in the 1940s.

3. Putin's plan almost certainly was to get to Kyiv and overthrow the government and install a puppet pro-Russian government like in Belarus. He failed to do that. No destroy Ukraine....just run its government out of the Kremlin

Now its most likely that he is trying to get the best deal he can....keep the lands he has taken in eastern Ukraine...maybe get a guarantee of no NATO membership for the rest of Ukraine.

But its hard to see how he will even get a "no NATO membership" agreement. Kyiv won't go for it (for understandable reasons) and neither will the rest of the Western bloc.

---

I said last spring that the time to negotiate was before the Ukrainian offensive. I'm not surprised that Putin isn't interested now. The only question is how much more Russia takes and how soon.

---

Wrong vatnik.

ATL Bear said:

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Not sure if China is one of the "neutrals", but reports are saying they will be pressing for negotiations soon.

---

Strange.

They are probably making the most money off this war.

Getting Russian natural resources for dirt cheap prices

You would think they would want this situation to go on forever.

Redbrickbear said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Not sure if China is one of the "neutrals", but reports are saying they will be pressing for negotiations soon.

---

Strange.

They are probably making the most money off this war.

Getting Russian natural resources for dirty cheap prices

You would think they would want this situation to go on forever.

---

China is watching their Taiwan invasion as a very open and public abortion, and they're going to keep their people fed and in line with the Party by producing rubber dog **** and trading it for US treasuries.

Redbrickbear said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Not sure if China is one of the "neutrals", but reports are saying they will be pressing for negotiations soon.

---

Strange.

They are probably making the most money off this war.

Getting Russian natural resources for dirty cheap prices

You would think they would want this situation to go on forever.

---

They've lost Billions in foreign investment which has compounded their real estate and asset bubble combined with massive youth unemployment. They're having to face deflation realities as well.

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

sombear said:

---

Interesting … our Corp intel reported 2 weeks ago and now ISW and others reporting that Putin will not entertain any kind of settlement discussions. His goal remains to take over all of Ukraine. Neutral parties have approached Putin and he has dismissed them out of hand and made intentions crystal clear.

---

Reading that his goal is to literally destroy Ukrainian society and assimilate into Russia for resettlement.

---

1. Almost certainly not true.

2. Where are they gonna get these large numbers of Russian settlers to re-settle Ukraine? Clone them? They are in the middle of a demographic implosion in Russia with the death rate out stripping the birth rate.

Hell its now pretty common knowledge that even the Nazi's knew they were gonna have a serious problem resettling Ukraine (that was their plan if they won the war) because there were not enough ethnic Germans to do it even back in the 1940s.

3. Putin's plan almost certainly was to get to Kyiv and overthrow the government and install a puppet pro-Russian government like in Belarus. He failed to do that. No destroy Ukraine....just run its government out of the Kremlin

Now its most likely that he is trying to get the best deal he can....keep the lands he has taken in eastern Ukraine...maybe get a guarantee of no NATO membership for the rest of Ukraine.

But it's hard to see how he will even get a "no NATO membership" agreement. Kyiv won't go for it (for understandable reasons) and neither will the rest of the Western bloc.

---

Futile to try and get into Putin's head from a distance, but, if these reports are accurate, the highlighted portion above is not accurate. The reporting is that multiple "neutrals" and perhaps even Putin allies have approached him about such potential compromises, but he completely shut the door.

---

That might be true.

It's not even clear if he could get these compromise positions (some land in east Ukraine, promise of no NATO membership) even if he wanted them.

If he really thinks he can take over all of ukriane or even incorporate the whole country into the Russian Federation with Russian settlers….then maybe the reports of him having dementia are true.

---

Fair point

sombear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

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sombear said:

---

Interesting … our Corp intel reported 2 weeks ago and now ISW and others reporting that Putin will not entertain any kind of settlement discussions. His goal remains to take over all of Ukraine. Neutral parties have approached Putin and he has dismissed them out of hand and made intentions crystal clear.

---

Reading that his goal is to literally destroy Ukrainian society and assimilate into Russia for resettlement.

---

1. Almost certainly not true.

2. Where are they gonna get these large numbers of Russian settlers to re-settle Ukraine? Clone them? They are in the middle of a demographic implosion in Russia with the death rate out stripping the birth rate.

Hell its now pretty common knowledge that even the Nazi's knew they were gonna have a serious problem resettling Ukraine (that was their plan if they won the war) because there were not enough ethnic Germans to do it even back in the 1940s.

3. Putin's plan almost certainly was to get to Kyiv and overthrow the government and install a puppet pro-Russian government like in Belarus. He failed to do that. No destroy Ukraine....just run its government out of the Kremlin

Now its most likely that he is trying to get the best deal he can....keep the lands he has taken in eastern Ukraine...maybe get a guarantee of no NATO membership for the rest of Ukraine.

But it's hard to see how he will even get a "no NATO membership" agreement. Kyiv won't go for it (for understandable reasons) and neither will the rest of the Western bloc.

---

Futile to try and get into Putin's head from a distance, but, if these reports are accurate, the highlighted portion above is not accurate. The reporting is that multiple "neutrals" and perhaps even Putin allies have approached him about such potential compromises, but he completely shut the door.

---

That might be true.

It's not even clear if he could get these compromise positions (some land in east Ukraine, promise of no NATO membership) even if he wanted them.

If he really thinks he can take over all of ukriane or even incorporate the whole country into the Russian Federation with Russian settlers….then maybe the reports of him having dementia are true.

---

Fair point

---

But not the most germane.

Putin clearly did think he could take Ukraine. Quickly. Easily. And failed due to extreme miscalculation of himself and his enemy (queue Sun Tsu here…)

Thanks to the blunder, Putin is now is a war he cannot afford
win and cannot afford to lose. So he has to play for time, hoping a miscalculation by his adversaries or some serendipitous event will allow him to escape.

Overarching lesson is not that he's no threat to NATO. He is. An a mortal threat at that. Not because he is remotely capable of winning any kind of war with NATO, but because he has demonstrated that cannot be trusted to understand that he cannot.

A nuclear capable adversary who does not know when to stand down is more dangerous than the one who does.

Good explanation of the thorough destruction of the Russian arty corps. Their shrinking inventory of available pieces is wearing out barrels they cannot replace.

A century of accumulated hardware and ammo….gone. This one factor alone could derive NATO decades of peace.

Russia's Problems with Artillery Support Are Growing
There are major problems now with Russian artillery in Ukraine. "Every day Ukrainian forces are degrading Russian arty which throughout the war has been a strong suit for Moscow. They have leveled out parity and seem to…

— Randy Mott (@randymot4) September 15, 2023

Interesting from the Russian general and MP Gurulev who took it to Telegram to say that Ukrainians have changed tactics, that they effectively combat minefields, that their drones are endless, and that the Russian counter-battery fire is still ineffective.

We've actually heard… pic.twitter.com/IUbznLS91x

— Dmitri (@wartranslated) September 15, 2023

"So he has to play for time, hoping a miscalculation by his adversaries or some serendipitous event will allow him to escape"

You don't want to hear this, and I'm sure you will dispute it, but what Putin is waiting for is the next round of US elections, that might see a more favorable (to him) Republican win the White House. The three leading candidates on that side (according to polling) are all making support for Ukraine a partisan issue, and are openly in favor of letting Russia keep what they have taken so far, in the name of "peace". Putin will likely play the same cards in other western countries too, trying to help people like Le Pen and Salvini win high office and taper down aid to Ukraine.

HuMcK said:

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"So he has to play for time, hoping a miscalculation by his adversaries or some serendipitous event will allow him to escape"

You don't want to hear this, and I'm sure you will dispute it, but what Putin is waiting for is the next round of US elections, that might see a more favorable (to him) Republican win the White House. The three leading candidates on that side (according to polling) are all making support for Ukraine a partisan issue, and are openly in favor of letting Russia keep what they have taken so far, in the name of "peace". Putin will likely play the same cards in other western countries too, trying to help people like Le Pen and Salvini win high office and taper down aid to Ukraine.

---

You are correct, sir. Putin is waiting for Trump or a MAGA type to win and pull US support. For him, it is a waiting game and will play defense. Ukraine should start preparing for it and if they are smart start treat the Dnieper River as a secondary boundary. Once a pro-Trump President is in place, Putin will get what he has and eye more...

Russian authorities will now be able to send deaf, oligophrenic and schizophrenic people to the front line

Yesterday, Russian Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu approved a list of diseases with which citizens will not be able to serve under contract during mobilization, martial law… pic.twitter.com/SwmRLNybgq

— NEXTA (@nexta_tv) September 14, 2023

FLBear5630 said:

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HuMcK said:

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"So he has to play for time, hoping a miscalculation by his adversaries or some serendipitous event will allow him to escape"

You don't want to hear this, and I'm sure you will dispute it, but what Putin is waiting for is the next round of US elections, that might see a more favorable (to him) Republican win the White House. The three leading candidates on that side (according to polling) are all making support for Ukraine a partisan issue, and are openly in favor of letting Russia keep what they have taken so far, in the name of "peace". Putin will likely play the same cards in other western countries too, trying to help people like Le Pen and Salvini win high office and taper down aid to Ukraine.

---

You are correct, sir. Putin is waiting for Trump or a MAGA type to win and pull US support. For him, it is a waiting game and will play defense. Ukraine should start preparing for it and if they are smart start treat the Dnieper River as a secondary boundary. Once a pro-Trump President is in place, Putin will get what he has and eye more...

---

lol

Even when Trump was in the actual office he did nothing to stop the Washington war machine.

You remember that he sent weapons to Ukraine right? In fact part of the reason he got impeached was because he did not send them fast enough....holding back for a time so he could try and get the authorities in Kyiv to investigate Hunter Biden and Big Pappa's money schemes over there.

In the end he sent the weapons.

He tried to pull troops out of Afghanistan and the Senate squashed his efforts.

Not only did Trump not care that much about trying to reign in our out of control Pentagon/national security State apparatus.....but he was a coalition of 1 up there in Washington....at no point then or now did he have the support of powerful Democratic and Republican Senators (who are all in on a more belligerent foreign policy).

Trump in office again would just be this same dynamic playing out again.

And lets not pretend there is some other mythical "MAGA Republican" out there waiting in the wings to take up the Trumpian standard....get elected...then actually try to fight the Washington Blob to get some restraint back into our foreign policy.

Don't worry your head little one....no matter who is in office...the weapons to Ukraine will flow

Redbrickbear said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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HuMcK said:

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"So he has to play for time, hoping a miscalculation by his adversaries or some serendipitous event will allow him to escape"

You don't want to hear this, and I'm sure you will dispute it, but what Putin is waiting for is the next round of US elections, that might see a more favorable (to him) Republican win the White House. The three leading candidates on that side (according to polling) are all making support for Ukraine a partisan issue, and are openly in favor of letting Russia keep what they have taken so far, in the name of "peace". Putin will likely play the same cards in other western countries too, trying to help people like Le Pen and Salvini win high office and taper down aid to Ukraine.

---

You are correct, sir. Putin is waiting for Trump or a MAGA type to win and pull US support. For him, it is a waiting game and will play defense. Ukraine should start preparing for it and if they are smart start treat the Dnieper River as a secondary boundary. Once a pro-Trump President is in place, Putin will get what he has and eye more...

---

lol

Even when Trump was in the actual office he did nothing to stop the Washington war machine.

You remember that he sent weapons to Ukraine right? In fact part of the reason he got impeached was because he did not send them fast enough....holding back for a time so he could try and get the authorities in Kyiv to investigate Hunter Biden and Big Pappa's money schemes over there.

In the end he sent the weapons.

He tried to pull troops out of Afghanistan and the Senate squashed his efforts.

Not only did Trump not care that much about trying to reign in our out of control Pentagon/national security State apparatus.....but he was a coalition of 1 up there in Washington....at no point then or now did he have the support of powerful Democratic and Republican Senators (who are all in on a more belligerent foreign policy).

Trump in office again would just be this same dynamic playing out again.

And lets not pretend there is some other mythical "MAGA Republican" out there waiting in the wings to take up the Trumpian standard....get elected...then actually try to fight the Washington Blob to get some restraint back into our foreign policy.

Don't worry your head little one....no matter who is in office...the weapons to Ukraine will flow

---

You might have a point there. But, this impacts Putin whom he respects. It would be interesting to see.

⚡ Kadyrov is in a coma: the Main Intelligence Directorate confirmed information about the critical condition of the head of Chechnya, - Obozrevatel

GUR representative Yusov told reporters that Kadyrov’s illnesses worsened, which led to a serious condition. pic.twitter.com/NS1Kk2canw

— MAKS 23 👀🇺🇦 (@Maks_NAFO_FELLA) September 15, 2023

FLBear5630 said:

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HuMcK said:

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"So he has to play for time, hoping a miscalculation by his adversaries or some serendipitous event will allow him to escape"

You don't want to hear this, and I'm sure you will dispute it, but what Putin is waiting for is the next round of US elections, that might see a more favorable (to him) Republican win the White House. The three leading candidates on that side (according to polling) are all making support for Ukraine a partisan issue, and are openly in favor of letting Russia keep what they have taken so far, in the name of "peace". Putin will likely play the same cards in other western countries too, trying to help people like Le Pen and Salvini win high office and taper down aid to Ukraine.

---

You are correct, sir. Putin is waiting for Trump or a MAGA type to win and pull US support. For him, it is a waiting game and will play defense. Ukraine should start preparing for it and if they are smart start treat the Dnieper River as a secondary boundary. Once a pro-Trump President is in place, Putin will get what he has and eye more...

---

LOL the irony of you two making the issue political to support your own positions. The candidates are merely pandering to existing sentiment.....sentiment which would not have much purchase if everything else on the political landscape were not a disaster while Biden is to slow-walking the aid. The border is particularly unhelpful. Pitting border policy against Ukraine policy is of course a false dilemma, but the optics are terrible and offer up particularly poignant memes = "why would we care more about Ukraine's border than our own?" etc.....

Trump is going to do exactly what I'd do - bring the war to an end by ramping up the pace of delivery to bring about a quick Ukraine victory, unless Putin wants to withdraw, which we would help him do.

And if he doesn't, and if public opinion forces our POTUS to end the aid......well, we are still a republic which operates on democratic processes, so the people do have choices to make and, frankly, we do indeed have more worse problems than the Russian Arm in Ukraine, so we can kick the can down the road and deal with Putin later. I'd rather not, but the anti-Ukraine caucus is noisy and, most of all. wildly unreasonable. Better to have them beating up on Democrats. They are a far worse problem, you know...

ATL Bear said:

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So it's "propaganda," but you admit it happened and try to justify it.

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Lol I'm not the one defending actual combatants passing off as "war bloggers". Maybe they shouldn't film themselves sighting and loading artillery and bragging about leading troops.

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He was giving a talk at a cafe in St. Petersburg. Two dozen people were hospitalized from the explosion.

This is how your pals defend free speech and "democracy."

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I hope the CIA is monitoring your shlt and you get caught monetarily supporting that criminal state and put away for it.

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Trey needs some bumper stickers for his new car..."I ****ing love the CIA", "if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear", "Print the money baby and send it to Kyvi"

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No love for it whatsoever. But Sam has gone from being a reasonable person to overtly and ostensibly in support of an autocratic/fascist regime. So much so that I wouldn't be surprised if he was actually monetarily supportive of their efforts.

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We can stop supporting fascist regimes right now, starting with Ukraine.

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Russia made them fascist...

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The Russian slavs, who fought the fascist axis powers in World War II, while losing 27 million people during the war (including 8.7 million military and 19 million civilians) made the Ukrainians fascist?

God dang we have some big brain boys on this board.






*p.s.

Neither the modern Ukrainians nor Russians are actual fascists…get a dictionary and look up the term

---

What the hell does the Soviets fighting the Nazis 3 generations ago have to do with the Mussolini like regime that Putin runs in Russia? He's even co-opted the Russian orthodox church the same way Mussolini did with the Catholic Church. Nationalism, the state first….

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Is this the part again where we have go down the rabbit hole of explaining how the current regime in Moscow is not in fact fascist?

In either it's classical Italian or Germanic/Nazi flavors…born of the veterans movements in chaos of post World War I Europe.

The current Putinist government is an oligarchy (that yes uses nationalism and a close relationship to the main Church of the Russian people) to establish its rule.

But for a long list of reasons it is not fascist.

[Kershaw argues that the difference between fascism and other forms of right-wing authoritarianism in the Interwar period is that the latter generally aimed "to conserve the existing social order", whereas fascism was "revolutionary" and "futuristic", seeking to change society completely and obtain "total commitment" from the population.]

[Historian Emilio Gentile has defined fascism as "a completely modern political phenomenon, revolutionary, anti-liberal and anti-Marxist, organized in a militia party with a totalitarian conception of politics and the State, an activist and anti-theoretical ideology, with a mythical, virilistic and anti-hedonistic foundation, sacralized as a secular religion, which affirms the absolute primacy of the nation…hierarchically organized in a corporate state…aimed at creating a new order and a new civilization".]

Putin is not trying to create a new civilization. He is not leading a revolutionary ideological party made up of war veterans, he is not trying to create a command economy, nor create a new secular religion for the masses.

His cabal around him is mostly concerned with using the existing State apparatus to make themselves wealthy (that is kleptocracy) and to the extent that the regime does believe in Russian great power nationalism…that does not make them fascist for sharing 1 similar political commitment.

After all Putin and Stalin share/shared similar ideas about Russia as great power spanning Eurasian….and neither of them are fascists.

Heck in modern North Korea, kim jong un and the communist Workers party of Korea leans heavily on Korean nationalism to legitimize its rule….yet it's of course not fascist…it's literally communist

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Read less dictionaries and Wikis and analyze reality. The parallels are profound….

---

The parallels are actually not profound.

And Hell no I will not stop reading dictionaries….you should try it some time.

You are equating Russian nationalism (and it seems ultra-nationalism in general) with fascism.

A stupid mistake.

A Regime can be communist, monarchist, republican, etc., and embrace a nationalistic and expansionist/aggressive foreign policy.

Other than that the Putinist regime is classically oligarchic and kleptocratic….not fascist

*p.s. Peter Hitchens (who has lived in Moscow before) explains how Putin and his regime are actually trying to create an apolitical populace. Of course fascism (like communism) was trying to create a hyper-political population.

The other aspect of fascism (and communism) that stands out is that it is completely totalitarian. It cares at the deepest level what you think and believe. And is determine to "re-educate" you.

Putin's regime could care less what you actually believe in private…as long as you don't stand up in public and make problems for them. That is classically dictatorial (not totalitarian)

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Russian ultra nationalism, combined with their totalitarian tendencies, political suppression, and corporatist economic structure align clearly with Fascism. Putin literally operates above party and political structure and is the centerpiece of power and authority in the country.

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Nationalism is a key foundation stone of fascism = collectivism to benefit a particular race. That is a critical motivation for post-modernist deconstruction of nationalism. So, yeah, the Russian state is technically fascist, but very softly at this point.

whiterock said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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HuMcK said:

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"So he has to play for time, hoping a miscalculation by his adversaries or some serendipitous event will allow him to escape"

You don't want to hear this, and I'm sure you will dispute it, but what Putin is waiting for is the next round of US elections, that might see a more favorable (to him) Republican win the White House. The three leading candidates on that side (according to polling) are all making support for Ukraine a partisan issue, and are openly in favor of letting Russia keep what they have taken so far, in the name of "peace". Putin will likely play the same cards in other western countries too, trying to help people like Le Pen and Salvini win high office and taper down aid to Ukraine.

---

You are correct, sir. Putin is waiting for Trump or a MAGA type to win and pull US support. For him, it is a waiting game and will play defense. Ukraine should start preparing for it and if they are smart start treat the Dnieper River as a secondary boundary. Once a pro-Trump President is in place, Putin will get what he has and eye more...

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LOL the irony of you two making the issue political to support your own positions. The candidates are merely pandering to existing sentiment.....sentiment which would not have much purchase if everything else on the political landscape were not a disaster while Biden is to slow-walking the aid. The border is particularly unhelpful. Pitting border policy against Ukraine policy is of course a false dilemma, but the optics are terrible and offer up particularly poignant memes = "why would we care more about Ukraine's border than our own?" etc.....

Trump is going to do exactly what I'd do - bring the war to an end by ramping up the pace of delivery to bring about a quick Ukraine victory, unless Putin wants to withdraw, which we would help him do.

And if he doesn't, and if public opinion forces our POTUS to end the aid......well, we are still a republic which operates on democratic processes, so the people do have choices to make and, frankly, we do indeed have more worse problems than the Russian Arm in Ukraine, so we can kick the can down the road and deal with Putin later. I'd rather not, but the anti-Ukraine caucus is noisy and, most of all. wildly unreasonable. Better to have them beating up on Democrats. They are a far worse problem, you know...

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I agree with Ukraine and our border issues are separate and I have not mixed them.

As for Ukraine, if Trump said what you said. I would be in. Have a plan on how to end it without Russia profiting, which would only set up round 3 in the future. But, what Trump says would leave Ukraine high and dry. A few Javelins are not enough. That is the level Trump supported. He is saying he would get us out. That gives Russia what they want.

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So it's "propaganda," but you admit it happened and try to justify it.

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Lol I'm not the one defending actual combatants passing off as "war bloggers". Maybe they shouldn't film themselves sighting and loading artillery and bragging about leading troops.

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He was giving a talk at a cafe in St. Petersburg. Two dozen people were hospitalized from the explosion.

This is how your pals defend free speech and "democracy."

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I hope the CIA is monitoring your shlt and you get caught monetarily supporting that criminal state and put away for it.

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Trey needs some bumper stickers for his new car..."I ****ing love the CIA", "if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear", "Print the money baby and send it to Kyvi"

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No love for it whatsoever. But Sam has gone from being a reasonable person to overtly and ostensibly in support of an autocratic/fascist regime. So much so that I wouldn't be surprised if he was actually monetarily supportive of their efforts.

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We can stop supporting fascist regimes right now, starting with Ukraine.

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Russia made them fascist...

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The Russian slavs, who fought the fascist axis powers in World War II, while losing 27 million people during the war (including 8.7 million military and 19 million civilians) made the Ukrainians fascist?

God dang we have some big brain boys on this board.






*p.s.

Neither the modern Ukrainians nor Russians are actual fascists…get a dictionary and look up the term

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What the hell does the Soviets fighting the Nazis 3 generations ago have to do with the Mussolini like regime that Putin runs in Russia? He's even co-opted the Russian orthodox church the same way Mussolini did with the Catholic Church. Nationalism, the state first….

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Is this the part again where we have go down the rabbit hole of explaining how the current regime in Moscow is not in fact fascist?

In either it's classical Italian or Germanic/Nazi flavors…born of the veterans movements in chaos of post World War I Europe.

The current Putinist government is an oligarchy (that yes uses nationalism and a close relationship to the main Church of the Russian people) to establish its rule.

But for a long list of reasons it is not fascist.

[Kershaw argues that the difference between fascism and other forms of right-wing authoritarianism in the Interwar period is that the latter generally aimed "to conserve the existing social order", whereas fascism was "revolutionary" and "futuristic", seeking to change society completely and obtain "total commitment" from the population.]

[Historian Emilio Gentile has defined fascism as "a completely modern political phenomenon, revolutionary, anti-liberal and anti-Marxist, organized in a militia party with a totalitarian conception of politics and the State, an activist and anti-theoretical ideology, with a mythical, virilistic and anti-hedonistic foundation, sacralized as a secular religion, which affirms the absolute primacy of the nation…hierarchically organized in a corporate state…aimed at creating a new order and a new civilization".]

Putin is not trying to create a new civilization. He is not leading a revolutionary ideological party made up of war veterans, he is not trying to create a command economy, nor create a new secular religion for the masses.

His cabal around him is mostly concerned with using the existing State apparatus to make themselves wealthy (that is kleptocracy) and to the extent that the regime does believe in Russian great power nationalism…that does not make them fascist for sharing 1 similar political commitment.

After all Putin and Stalin share/shared similar ideas about Russia as great power spanning Eurasian….and neither of them are fascists.

Heck in modern North Korea, kim jong un and the communist Workers party of Korea leans heavily on Korean nationalism to legitimize its rule….yet it's of course not fascist…it's literally communist

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Read less dictionaries and Wikis and analyze reality. The parallels are profound….

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The parallels are actually not profound.

And Hell no I will not stop reading dictionaries….you should try it some time.

You are equating Russian nationalism (and it seems ultra-nationalism in general) with fascism.

A stupid mistake.

A Regime can be communist, monarchist, republican, etc., and embrace a nationalistic and expansionist/aggressive foreign policy.

Other than that the Putinist regime is classically oligarchic and kleptocratic….not fascist

*p.s. Peter Hitchens (who has lived in Moscow before) explains how Putin and his regime are actually trying to create an apolitical populace. Of course fascism (like communism) was trying to create a hyper-political population.

The other aspect of fascism (and communism) that stands out is that it is completely totalitarian. It cares at the deepest level what you think and believe. And is determine to "re-educate" you.

Putin's regime could care less what you actually believe in private…as long as you don't stand up in public and make problems for them. That is classically dictatorial (not totalitarian)

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Russian ultra nationalism, combined with their totalitarian tendencies, political suppression, and corporatist economic structure align clearly with Fascism. Putin literally operates above party and political structure and is the centerpiece of power and authority in the country.

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Nationalism is a key foundation stone of fascism = collectivism to benefit a particular race.

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That certainly does explain why progressive-liberals view every manifestation of nationalism as just crypto-nazism


They are literally terrified of any nationalism arising in the Western world.

This is Russia's last serious war.

The Soviet stockpiles will have all been all "utilized", Ukraine will be heavily armed and/or under NATO umbrella, manpower will drain out as soon as it's free to do so, and in any case the regime will have different priorities post-war. https://t.co/Kc31Es0GgJ

— Anatoly Karlin 🧲💯 (@powerfultakes) September 16, 2023

whiterock said:

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HuMcK said:

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"So he has to play for time, hoping a miscalculation by his adversaries or some serendipitous event will allow him to escape"

You don't want to hear this, and I'm sure you will dispute it, but what Putin is waiting for is the next round of US elections, that might see a more favorable (to him) Republican win the White House. The three leading candidates on that side (according to polling) are all making support for Ukraine a partisan issue, and are openly in favor of letting Russia keep what they have taken so far, in the name of "peace". Putin will likely play the same cards in other western countries too, trying to help people like Le Pen and Salvini win high office and taper down aid to Ukraine.

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You are correct, sir. Putin is waiting for Trump or a MAGA type to win and pull US support. For him, it is a waiting game and will play defense. Ukraine should start preparing for it and if they are smart start treat the Dnieper River as a secondary boundary. Once a pro-Trump President is in place, Putin will get what he has and eye more...

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LOL the irony of you two making the issue political to support your own positions. The candidates are merely pandering to existing sentiment.....sentiment which would not have much purchase if everything else on the political landscape were not a disaster while Biden is to slow-walking the aid. The border is particularly unhelpful. Pitting border policy against Ukraine policy is of course a false dilemma, but the optics are terrible and offer up particularly poignant memes = "why would we care more about Ukraine's border than our own?" etc.....

Trump is going to do exactly what I'd do - bring the war to an end by ramping up the pace of delivery to bring about a quick Ukraine victory, unless Putin wants to withdraw, which we would help him do.

And if he doesn't, and if public opinion forces our POTUS to end the aid......well, we are still a republic which operates on democratic processes, so the people do have choices to make and, frankly, we do indeed have more worse problems than the Russian Arm in Ukraine, so we can kick the can down the road and deal with Putin later. I'd rather not, but the anti-Ukraine caucus is noisy and, most of all. wildly unreasonable. Better to have them beating up on Democrats. They are a far worse problem, you know...

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Speaking of wildly unreasonable, what's your latest estimate on the Ukes' arrival at the Sea of Azov? Still sticking with end of October?

whiterock said:

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KaiBear said:

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US manipulated this war.

Thousands are now dead because of it.

Yet the clueless internet warriors who have never seen the corpses stack up still think of this horror as some kind of video game.

Yet not a single one of these heroes would ever enlist to fight. Might get their fingernails dirty ( or leg blown off )

And for all this mesage board chatter no one sincerely believes Ukraine can defeat Russia. There is zero chance Ukraine can invade and hold significant parts of Russian territory.

Past time to end this abomination and broker a cease fire.

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Nobody ""manipulates a major power into a 150k troop strong invasion.

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FDR manipulated Japan into attacking Pearl Harbor by cutting off US oil shipments .

Forced Japan to invade the Dutch East Indies for their oil fields.

And the US Pacific fleet had to be neutralized to cover this invasion .

US forces crossed the 38th parallel into North lKorea while ignoring repeated warnings from communist China .

Until finally China responded by sending almost a million soldiers into North Korea where they annihilated two South Korean divisions and drove the US army back below the 38th parallel inflicting thousands of casualties in the process

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come on, Kai. We did not manipulate Japan into attacking Pearl Harbor, or invading Dutch East India, or Manchuria, or anywhere else. Imperial Japan was a wildly expansionist regime.

Your argument is based on a chaotic premise that we were obligated to feed Japanese ambitions in order to attenuate Japanese ambitions.....that we HAD to sell them the gas to invade and occupy Manchuria in order to prevent them from attacking PH, et all.....

That is crackpot stuff.

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You need some history books beyond the basic high school material.

FDR intentionally cut off US oil shipments to weaken the Japanese military in their war with China.

As Japan had zero such oil reserves in their home islands.

Without US oil Japan either had to withdraw from China or get their oil from somewhere else. And the Dutch were allies of the US and Great Britain. War with the US was therefore inevitable.

Now exactly why FDR valued China so highly that he was willing to go to war with Japan is another conversation.

But it is obvious to many historians that Japan had few other options; as meekly surrending to US pressure was socially and politically impossible.

Kremlin debate over whether or not to conduct another mobilization ends in compromise. A bad one.

russia will no longer rotate troops home..... hat will help moral in russia

"❗️Mobilized people will not return home until the end of the Northern Military District, there will be no rotation - Kartapolov.

The mobilized Russians will leave the combat zone after the end of the…

— david D. (@secretsqrl123) September 15, 2023

It's not just the nationalism. This is a homofascist jihad against traditional societies being fought by this administration, the DOD, and the DOS and neocons are along for the ride. There's a reason why Ukraine's version of Baghdad Bob is an American ******. That sort of thing doesn't happen by accident. Neither does organizing the gay brigade of the UAF to join the Azov Nazis.

Wake up y'all. It's not 1980 anymore. We've met the evil empire, and it is us.

Realitybites said:

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It's not just the nationalism. This is a homofascist jihad against traditional societies being fought by this administration, the DOD, and the DOS and neocons are along for the ride. There's a reason why Ukraine's version of Baghdad Bob is an American ******. That sort of thing doesn't happen by accident. Neither does organizing the gay brigade of the UAF to join the Azov Nazis.

Wake up y'all. It's not 1980 anymore. We've met the evil empire, and it is us.

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I do tend to be amenable to strong god arguments, but that one is simultaneously shrill and chaotic (not an easy balance to achieve, so kudos....). You seem to be saying that a Franco-esque nationalist leader of an oligarchic Russian regime invaded the largest country in Europe to de-Nazify its democratically elected government with a Jewish president, and that we are being very very naughty for aiding those who want to stop him from turning Ukraine into a province of Russia.

Did I miss anything?

Realitybites said:

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It's not just the nationalism. This is a homofascist jihad against traditional societies being fought by this administration, the DOD, and the DOS and neocons are along for the ride. There's a reason why Ukraine's version of Baghdad Bob is an American ******. That sort of thing doesn't happen by accident. Neither does organizing the gay brigade of the UAF to join the Azov Nazis.

Wake up y'all. It's not 1980 anymore. We've met the evil empire, and it is us.

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Your tin foil hat is on way, way tight this morning.