Redbrickbear said:

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Waco1947 said:

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So could God stop the Turkey/Syria Earthquake? Was it God's will? 28,500 innocent lives.

Superstition cannot die soon enough. quash

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No but the answers of evangelicals and fundies are superstitious nonsense.


Oh….The old "if God exists why natural disasters happen?"

Do you honestly think you are the first person to ask that in the past 2,000 years?

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Waco1947 said:

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Coke Bear said:

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Waco1947 said:

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So could God stop the Turkey/Syria Earthquake? Was it God's will? 28,500 innocent lives.

Superstition cannot die soon enough. quash

---

Did Gog create those 28,000 lives?
Is God the author of all life?

---

And the taker? What a horrible superstition of a god.

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Why?

Waco1947 said:

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LIB,MR BEARS said:

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Waco1947 said:

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LIB,MR BEARS said:

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Waco1947 said:

---

So could God stop the Turkey/Syria Earthquake? Was it God's will? 28,500 innocent lives.

Superstition cannot die soon enough. quash

---

Why did it need to be stopped? Innocents lives who did nothing wrong

---

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What tells you they are innocent?

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There were children

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Just pretend they were still in the womb.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Waco1947 said:

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LIB,MR BEARS said:

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Waco1947 said:

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LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

So could God stop the Turkey/Syria Earthquake? Was it God's will? 28,500 innocent lives.

Superstition cannot die soon enough. quash

---

Why did it need to be stopped? Innocents lives who did nothing wrong

---

---

What tells you they are innocent?

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There were children

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Just pretend they were still in the womb.

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Waco1947 said:

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LIB,MR BEARS said:

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Waco1947 said:

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LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

So could God stop the Turkey/Syria Earthquake? Was it God's will? 28,500 innocent lives.

Superstition cannot die soon enough. quash

---

Why did it need to be stopped? Innocents lives who did nothing wrong

---

---

What tells you they are innocent?

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There were children

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Since you are arguing God, let's assume there is a heaven. Why take away heaven for these kids and leave them in a fallen world. Is heaven not a better place than a fallen Turkey, fallen Bremond, fallen Austin Ave?

BearN said:

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Pearls. Swines.

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A sermon from '47

Waco1947 said:

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JXL said:

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Waco1947 said:

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So could God stop the Turkey/Syria Earthquake? Was it God's will? 28,500 innocent lives.

Superstition cannot die soon enough. quash

---

I'll ask for the third time (not that I'm expecting an answer): Does the Bible guarantee that everyone will enjoy a pain-free, stress-free, worry-free life?

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No the Bible does not promise it but that trite statement does not answer why 38,000 innocent people died by earthquake and an your god did stop it.

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Your god????

I thought you were a Christian pastor????

So you are admitting you are a fake?

cowboycwr said:

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Waco1947 said:

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JXL said:

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Waco1947 said:

---

So could God stop the Turkey/Syria Earthquake? Was it God's will? 28,500 innocent lives.

Superstition cannot die soon enough. quash

---

I'll ask for the third time (not that I'm expecting an answer): Does the Bible guarantee that everyone will enjoy a pain-free, stress-free, worry-free life?

---

No the Bible does not promise it but that trite statement does not answer why 38,000 innocent people died by earthquake and an your god did stop it.

---

Your god????

I thought you were a Christian pastor????

So you are admitting you are a fake?

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Water doesn't say it's wet but everyone knows.

Waco1947 said:

---

Coke Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

So could God stop the Turkey/Syria Earthquake? Was it God's will? 28,500 innocent lives.

Superstition cannot die soon enough. quash

---

Did Gog create those 28,000 lives?
Is God the author of all life?

---

And the taker? What a horrible superstition of a god.

---

Pretty simplistic view of the sovereignty of God

Waco1947 said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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JXL said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

So could God stop the Turkey/Syria Earthquake? Was it God's will? 28,500 innocent lives.

Superstition cannot die soon enough. quash

---

I'll ask for the third time (not that I'm expecting an answer): Does the Bible guarantee that everyone will enjoy a pain-free, stress-free, worry-free life?

---

Anyone who has read Job should be able to answer that question.

Shewt, most of Genesis and Exodus make that plain as well.

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God's answer in Job: "I am God so shut up."

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Prove you never earned a degree in Theology without actually saying you never earned a degree in Theology.

Waco1947 said:

---

JXL said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

So could God stop the Turkey/Syria Earthquake? Was it God's will? 28,500 innocent lives.

Superstition cannot die soon enough. quash

---

I'll ask for the third time (not that I'm expecting an answer): Does the Bible guarantee that everyone will enjoy a pain-free, stress-free, worry-free life?

---

No the Bible does not promise it but that trite statement does not answer why 38,000 innocent people died by earthquake and an your god did stop it.

---

Since God never promised that people would live a pain-free life, why are you expecting that God should step in and ensure it?

Your argument appears to be as follows:

1. The Bible says that life will involve pain and suffering.

2. Life does, in fact, involve pain and suffering.

3. Therefore, the Bible is not true.

Somehow this logic appears to be faulty.

JXL said:

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Waco1947 said:

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JXL said:

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Waco1947 said:

---

So could God stop the Turkey/Syria Earthquake? Was it God's will? 28,500 innocent lives.

Superstition cannot die soon enough. quash

---

I'll ask for the third time (not that I'm expecting an answer): Does the Bible guarantee that everyone will enjoy a pain-free, stress-free, worry-free life?

---

No the Bible does not promise it but that trite statement does not answer why 38,000 innocent people died by earthquake and an your god did stop it.

---

Since God never promised that people would live a pain-free life, why are you expecting that God should step in and ensure it?

Your argument appears to be as follows:

1. The Bible says that life will involve pain and suffering.

2. Life does, in fact, involve pain and suffering.

3. Therefore, the Bible is not true.

Somehow this logic appears to be faulty.

---

If I could play Devil's Waco47's advocate, I would say that his theology isn't saying whether or not God promises a life without suffering, it's saying God doesn't have the power to be able to deliver on that even if he did promise it. So he could say that yes, the bible IS true: God doesn't promise a life without pain and suffering - because God can't do anything to prevent it.

The main problem with Waco47's belief is that he can't reconcile a God that is BOTH loving AND all powerful. To him, if God is love, and He is all powerful, then God MUST prevent pain and suffering, otherwise he isn't one or the other. Waco47 can't open himself to see it any other way. He doesn't have faith. And, he's just generally nutty.

Waco1947 said:

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Wangchung said:

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Why the hell would anyone bother answering this idiot's questions when she blatantly ignores the questions that completely destroy her hair brained blasphemous theories?

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Huh? Sounds like you have no theological or philosophical answers just demeaning nonsense

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You refuse to answer real theological and philosophical questions and then insult people with what could easily be classified as demeaning nonsense. I can see where the question as to why anyone would answer your questions comes from.

You have yet to provide a definition of love that does not depend on scripture.

And you have yet to answer the very legitimate question as to how Jesus could be said to exhibit self sacrificing love in the absence of the reality of the supernatural.

I would add that argument against a loving and powerful God because of the presence of suffering does not require 50,000 deaths or 50,000,000 deaths or even five deaths. It only requires the sore back I am currently experiencing as a result of straining a muscle in my back while playing soccer. That is suffering. A powerful God could have stopped it. A loving God would be compelled to stop it. Therefore, God is either not powerful, not loving or simply not there. It is an absurd argument to say that there is not a powerful or loving God because my back hurts, but that is basically the argument you are making.

You are advocating some of the same false teachings that were the impetus for parts of the New Testament. Nothing you are offering here is new.

Coke Bear said:

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Waco1947 said:

---

Coke Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

So could God stop the Turkey/Syria Earthquake? Was it God's will? 28,500 innocent lives.

Superstition cannot die soon enough. quash

---

Did Gog create those 28,000 lives?
Is God the author of all life?

---

And the taker? What a horrible superstition of a god.

---

Why?

---

No theodicy can hold these 3 options together.
1. God is love which is the overwhelming witness of Scripture
2. God is all power meaning God can control physics.
3. Evil exists
Turkey earthquake neither evil or good but simply physics.

If Gpd is loving and 38,000 innocent people die as a result of physics then why would a God of physics allow 38,000 innocent people to die.
38,000 people who were in the wrong place at the wrong time sleeping and God wipes them out..

Evangelicals and I assume Catholics believe in an all power God and their only proof is "The Bible says so."

To ask God to hold both all physical power and all loving power cannot philosophically hold together without fantastic mental gymnastics.

Waco, you speak as a man with no faith.

D. C. Bear said:

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Waco1947 said:

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Wangchung said:

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Why the hell would anyone bother answering this idiot's questions when she blatantly ignores the questions that completely destroy her hair brained blasphemous theories?

---

Huh? Sounds like you have no theological or philosophical answers just demeaning nonsense

---

You refuse to answer real theological and philosophical questions and then insult people with what could easily be classified as demeaning nonsense. I can see where the question as to why anyone would answer your questions comes from.

You have yet to provide a definition of love that does not depend on scripture.Yes, I did. You love your wife!

And you have yet to answer the very legitimate question as to how Jesus could be said to exhibit self sacrificing love in the absence of the reality of the supernatural.Jesus died on the cross for sins. That is not supernatural.. Romans 5:But God proves his love for us in that while we still were sinners Christ died for us.

I would add that argument against a loving and powerful God because of the presence of suffering does not require 50,000 deaths or 50,000,000 deaths or even five deaths. It only requires the sore back I am currently experiencing as a result of straining a muscle in my back while playing soccer. That is suffering. A powerful God could have stopped it. A loving God would be compelled to stop it. Therefore, God is either not powerful, not loving or simply not there. It is an absurd argument to say that there is not a powerful or loving God because my back hurts, but that is basically the argument you are making.
Your sore back is not the argument I am making. 38,000 innocent people died and God according to you did not lift a finger. 6,000,000 Jews died and your God did not lift a finger. Africans held in slavery for 300 years and your God did not lift a finger. Your God has the power according to you yet holds back the power to physically save innocent people. That god is a horrible god

You are advocating some of the same false teachings that were the impetus for parts of the New Testament. Nothing you are offering here is new.Not false teaching reality as to how the world works. The world does not work physically because of your god but by the laws of physic.

---

My God of love is with the survivors of that sad event in Turkey and Syria. There is an out pouring love through monetary gifts, volunteers and material aid. The good news is that God is with us in all the crisises of our lives and the worlds. The witness of the scripture is that this God of love is real.

Osodecentx said:

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Waco1947 said:

---

Coke Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

So could God stop the Turkey/Syria Earthquake? Was it God's will? 28,500 innocent lives.

Superstition cannot die soon enough. quash

---

Did Gog create those 28,000 lives?
Is God the author of all life?

---

And the taker? What a horrible superstition of a god.

---

Pretty simplistic view of the sovereignty of God Yes, it is but you have not disproved my premise.God's gift of life is grace. I wasn't here in 1946 but then I became a living being in 1947. It is mystery to me why I showed up but I did. Science will take me away from this life but my last breath shall be God's. That is my faith statement.

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Waco1947 said:

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Osodecentx said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Coke Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

So could God stop the Turkey/Syria Earthquake? Was it God's will? 28,500 innocent lives.

Superstition cannot die soon enough. quash

---

Did Gog create those 28,000 lives?
Is God the author of all life?

---

And the taker? What a horrible superstition of a god.

---

Pretty simplistic view of the sovereignty of God Yes, it is but you have not disproved my premise.God's gift of life is grace. I wasn't here in 1946 but then I became a living being in 1947. It is mystery to me why I showed up but I did. Science will take me away from this life but my last breath shall be God's. That is my faith statement.

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No savvy

OsoCoreyell said:

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BearN said:

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Pearls. Swines.

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A sermon from '47 Thank you. It fits me and all of us. Pig could have said "Love your neighbor as yourself." And laugh

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Waco1947 said:

---

Coke Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Coke Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

So could God stop the Turkey/Syria Earthquake? Was it God's will? 28,500 innocent lives.

Superstition cannot die soon enough. quash

---

Did Gog create those 28,000 lives?
Is God the author of all life?

---

And the taker? What a horrible superstition of a god.

---

Why?

---

No theodicy can hold these 3 options together.
1. God is love which is the overwhelming witness of Scripture
2. God is all power meaning God can control physics.
3. Evil exists
Turkey earthquake neither evil or good but simply physics.

If Gpd is loving and 38,000 innocent people die as a result of physics then why would a God of physics allow 38,000 innocent people to die.
38,000 people who were in the wrong place at the wrong time sleeping and God wipes them out..

Evangelicals and I assume Catholics believe in an all power God and their only proof is "The Bible says so."

To ask God to hold both all physical power and all loving power cannot philosophically hold together without fantastic mental gymnastics.

---

It can EASILY philosophically hold together, if you will just open your mind to the possibility that God may have a purpose for evil and suffering, and will work it all out at the end for GOOD. That would be perfectly consistent with an all-powerful God that is loving.

Once you are aware of that possibility, then all you need is faith to believe it.

Waco1947 said:

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D. C. Bear said:

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Waco1947 said:

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Wangchung said:

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Why the hell would anyone bother answering this idiot's questions when she blatantly ignores the questions that completely destroy her hair brained blasphemous theories?

---

Huh? Sounds like you have no theological or philosophical answers just demeaning nonsense

---

You refuse to answer real theological and philosophical questions and then insult people with what could easily be classified as demeaning nonsense. I can see where the question as to why anyone would answer your questions comes from.

You have yet to provide a definition of love that does not depend on scripture.Yes, I did. You love your wife!

And you have yet to answer the very legitimate question as to how Jesus could be said to exhibit self sacrificing love in the absence of the reality of the supernatural.Jesus died on the cross for sins. That is not supernatural.. Romans 5:But God proves his love for us in that while we still were sinners Christ died for us.

I would add that argument against a loving and powerful God because of the presence of suffering does not require 50,000 deaths or 50,000,000 deaths or even five deaths. It only requires the sore back I am currently experiencing as a result of straining a muscle in my back while playing soccer. That is suffering. A powerful God could have stopped it. A loving God would be compelled to stop it. Therefore, God is either not powerful, not loving or simply not there. It is an absurd argument to say that there is not a powerful or loving God because my back hurts, but that is basically the argument you are making.
Your sore back is not the argument I am making. 38,000 innocent people died and God according to you did not lift a finger. 6,000,000 Jews died and your God did not lift a finger. Africans held in slavery for 300 years and your God did not lift a finger. Your God has the power according to you yet holds back the power to physically save innocent people. That god is a horrible god

You are advocating some of the same false teachings that were the impetus for parts of the New Testament. Nothing you are offering here is new.Not false teaching reality as to how the world works. The world does not work physically because of your god but by the laws of physic.

---

My God of love is with the survivors of that sad event in Turkey and Syria. There is an out pouring love through monetary gifts, volunteers and material aid. The good news is that God is with us in all the crisises of our lives and the worlds. The witness of the scripture is that this God of love is real.

---

Regarding slavery and God: was it Wilberforce or God working through Wilberforce that led to the end of slavery?

Waco1947 said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Wangchung said:

---

Why the hell would anyone bother answering this idiot's questions when she blatantly ignores the questions that completely destroy her hair brained blasphemous theories?

---

Huh? Sounds like you have no theological or philosophical answers just demeaning nonsense

---

You refuse to answer real theological and philosophical questions and then insult people with what could easily be classified as demeaning nonsense. I can see where the question as to why anyone would answer your questions comes from.

You have yet to provide a definition of love that does not depend on scripture.Yes, I did. You love your wife!

And you have yet to answer the very legitimate question as to how Jesus could be said to exhibit self sacrificing love in the absence of the reality of the supernatural.Jesus died on the cross for sins. That is not supernatural.. Romans 5:But God proves his love for us in that while we still were sinners Christ died for us.

I would add that argument against a loving and powerful God because of the presence of suffering does not require 50,000 deaths or 50,000,000 deaths or even five deaths. It only requires the sore back I am currently experiencing as a result of straining a muscle in my back while playing soccer. That is suffering. A powerful God could have stopped it. A loving God would be compelled to stop it. Therefore, God is either not powerful, not loving or simply not there. It is an absurd argument to say that there is not a powerful or loving God because my back hurts, but that is basically the argument you are making.
Your sore back is not the argument I am making. 38,000 innocent people died and God according to you did not lift a finger. 6,000,000 Jews died and your God did not lift a finger. Africans held in slavery for 300 years and your God did not lift a finger. Your God has the power according to you yet holds back the power to physically save innocent people. That god is a horrible god

You are advocating some of the same false teachings that were the impetus for parts of the New Testament. Nothing you are offering here is new.Not false teaching reality as to how the world works. The world does not work physically because of your god but by the laws of physic.

---

My God of love is with the survivors of that sad event in Turkey and Syria. There is an out pouring love through monetary gifts, volunteers and material aid. The good news is that God is with us in all the crisises of our lives and the worlds. The witness of the scripture is that this God of love is real.

---

Saying that I love my wife is not a definition of love.

My sore back is different only in a matter of degree, not kind. Any suffering of any kind can be used to argue against a loving, powerful God.

The witness of scripture is that Jesus Christ was crucified and rose from the dead. This is a supernatural event. The witness of scripture is that God intervened in word and physically became a man through the incarnation. This is a supernatural event.

Additionally, any free will must necessarily allow for the person exceeding that free will to choose evil and cause suffering. Therefore, the argument you are making is that God cannot be loving and powerful unless he prohibits the presence of free will.

You are simultaneously arguing that the universe has no free will (you offer a deterministic view that everything is physics) and, that for love to exist, it must have free will as you claim that choices people make by their free will can reflect love.

It remains true that the witness of scripture is also that you are offering false teaching about the nature of Jesus that were specifically present and addressed in scripture as false teachings. You are free to believe what you want, but you cannot legitimately claim scripture as a source for supporting your position.

Waco1947 said:

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Coke Bear said:

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Waco1947 said:

---

Coke Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

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So could God stop the Turkey/Syria Earthquake? Was it God's will? 28,500 innocent lives.

Superstition cannot die soon enough. quash

---

Did Gog create those 28,000 lives?
Is God the author of all life?

---

And the taker? What a horrible superstition of a god.

---

Why?

---

No theodicy can hold these 3 options together.
1. God is love which is the overwhelming witness of Scripture
2. God is all power meaning God can control physics.
3. Evil exists
Turkey earthquake neither evil or good but simply physics.

If Gpd is loving and 38,000 innocent people die as a result of physics then why would a God of physics allow 38,000 innocent people to die.
38,000 people who were in the wrong place at the wrong time sleeping and God wipes them out..

Evangelicals and I assume Catholics believe in an all power God and their only proof is "The Bible says so."

To ask God to hold both all physical power and all loving power cannot philosophically hold together without fantastic mental gymnastics.

---

All of your premises are faulty.

We live in a fallen world, which suffers calamities such as earthquakes from time to time. God never guaranteed that no one would ever suffer as a result of a natural disaster.

Should God put an end to all evil in the world (despite never saying that He would do so)? How would that work? It would require prohibiting the making of all choices - is that what you want? How loving would that be?

You complain that people say "the Bible says so" as their proof, and yet that is the same proof you rely on for your "God of Love" (who apparently lacks any other power). You denounce belief in the "supernatural" and yet claim that a man who lived and died thousands of years ago still today loves you - without recognizing that such a feat is necessarily supernatural. Perhaps most tellingly, you proclaim God to be a God of Love … provided that you get to define "love."

Waco1947 said:

---

No theodicy can hold these 3 options together.
1. God is love which is the overwhelming witness of Scripture
2. God is all power meaning God can control physics.
3. Evil exists
Turkey earthquake neither evil or good but simply physics.

If Gpd is loving and 38,000 innocent people die as a result of physics then why would a God of physics allow 38,000 innocent people to die.
38,000 people who were in the wrong place at the wrong time sleeping and God wipes them out..

Evangelicals and I assume Catholics believe in an all power God and their only proof is "The Bible says so."

To ask God to hold both all physical power and all loving power cannot philosophically hold together without fantastic mental gymnastics.

---

I thank you for your honest answer. I disagree with your premises, but I thank you none the less.

Having said that, I will forth that we both believe in the Christian afterlife called Heaven. Paraphrasing - living in perfect happiness enjoying the beatific vision.

I assume that we agree that our earthly existence in NOT heaven. We all experience pain, suffering, loss, etc. Death is not the END. It is the beginning for those who die in friendship with the Lord.

Finally, I assume that you believe that God can reward those 38,000 innocent people who died with Heaven. Yes, they died earlier that they may now have wanted; however, I have to believe that those "elect" are now enjoying the beatific vision and are more alive today that we on earth. They are seeing the face of God.

Waco1947 said:

---

My God of love is with the survivors of that sad event in Turkey and Syria. There is an out pouring love through monetary gifts, volunteers and material aid. The good news is that God is with us in all the crisises of our lives and the worlds. The witness of the scripture is that this God of love is real.

---

You're halfway there!

God, with his permissive will, allows these events to happen. But He knows that a greater good (Like what you mentioned above) can arise from this tragedy.

Luke 13:4 - Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?

Matt 5:45 - ... for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

Finally, God created the world "in statu viae," in a state of journeying. As you know from science, the earth is still forming, changing. It is bound to the law of physics. Earthquakes happen. Hurricanes happen. Floods happen.

St. Thomas Aquinas defined love as "willing the good of another." Thru free will, man has the ability to help our fellow man when events like this happen. That is Love.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Waco1947 said:

---

Coke Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Coke Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

So could God stop the Turkey/Syria Earthquake? Was it God's will? 28,500 innocent lives.

Superstition cannot die soon enough. quash

---

Did Gog create those 28,000 lives?
Is God the author of all life?

---

And the taker? What a horrible superstition of a god.

---

Why?

---

No theodicy can hold these 3 options together.
1. God is love which is the overwhelming witness of Scripture
2. God is all power meaning God can control physics.
3. Evil exists
Turkey earthquake neither evil or good but simply physics.

If Gpd is loving and 38,000 innocent people die as a result of physics then why would a God of physics allow 38,000 innocent people to die.
38,000 people who were in the wrong place at the wrong time sleeping and God wipes them out..

Evangelicals and I assume Catholics believe in an all power God and their only proof is "The Bible says so."

To ask God to hold both all physical power and all loving power cannot philosophically hold together without fantastic mental gymnastics.

---

It can EASILY philosophically hold together, if you will just open your mind to the possibility that God may have a purpose for evil and suffering, and will work it all out at the end for GOOD. God's first and truest and ultimate actuality is love and trumps all other claims as to God's nature. "God may have purpose for 39,000 dead in Turkey" goes against God's ultimate nature of love.
Your premise is "God has a purpose for suffering of innocents" is faulty.
Because if evil exists and if God knows about all of the evil and suffering in the world, knows how to eliminate or prevent it, is powerful enough to prevent it, and yet does not prevent it, he must not be perfectly good.

(10) If God knows about all of the evil and suffering, knows how to eliminate or prevent it, wants to prevent it, and yet does not do so, he must not be all- powerful.
(11) If God is powerful enough to prevent all of the evil and suffering, wants to do so, and yet does not, he must not know about all of the suffering or know how to eliminate or prevent itthat is, he must not be all-knowing.

From (9) through (11) we can infer:

Quote:

---

(12) If evil and suffering exist, then God is either not omnipotent, not omniscient, or not perfectly good.

---

Since evil and suffering obviously do exist, we get:

Quote:

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(13) God is either not omnipotent, not omniscient, or not perfectly good.

---

Putting the point more bluntly, this line of argument suggests thatin light of the evil and suffering we find in our worldif God exists, he is either impotent, ignorant or wicked. It should be obvious that (13) conflicts with (1) through (3) above. To make the conflict more clear, we can combine (1), (2) and (3) into the following single statement.

Quote:

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(14) God is omnipotent, omniscient and perfectly good.

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There is no way that (13) and (14) could both be true at the same time. These statements are logically inconsistent or contradictory.
James Beebe

I am not arguing for atheism because I am a Christian.
I am arguing a position that is grounded in Scripture. "God is love" I John 4

God is love - full stop. God does not control physics nor science. God does bring love to this world as tragedy strikes our live individually and communally.

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Waco1947 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Coke Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Coke Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

So could God stop the Turkey/Syria Earthquake? Was it God's will? 28,500 innocent lives.

Superstition cannot die soon enough. quash

---

Did Gog create those 28,000 lives?
Is God the author of all life?

---

And the taker? What a horrible superstition of a god.

---

Why?

---

No theodicy can hold these 3 options together.
1. God is love which is the overwhelming witness of Scripture
2. God is all power meaning God can control physics.
3. Evil exists
Turkey earthquake neither evil or good but simply physics.

If Gpd is loving and 38,000 innocent people die as a result of physics then why would a God of physics allow 38,000 innocent people to die.
38,000 people who were in the wrong place at the wrong time sleeping and God wipes them out..

Evangelicals and I assume Catholics believe in an all power God and their only proof is "The Bible says so."

To ask God to hold both all physical power and all loving power cannot philosophically hold together without fantastic mental gymnastics.

---

It can EASILY philosophically hold together, if you will just open your mind to the possibility that God may have a purpose for evil and suffering, and will work it all out at the end for GOOD. God's first and truest and ultimate actuality is love and trumps all other claims as to God's nature. "God may have purpose for 39,000 dead in Turkey" goes against God's ultimate nature of love.
Your premise is "God has a purpose for suffering of innocents" is faulty.
Because if evil exists and if God knows about all of the evil and suffering in the world, knows how to eliminate or prevent it, is powerful enough to prevent it, and yet does not prevent it, he must not be perfectly good.

(10) If God knows about all of the evil and suffering, knows how to eliminate or prevent it, wants to prevent it, and yet does not do so, he must not be all- powerful.
(11) If God is powerful enough to prevent all of the evil and suffering, wants to do so, and yet does not, he must not know about all of the suffering or know how to eliminate or prevent itthat is, he must not be all-knowing.

From (9) through (11) we can infer:

Quote:

---

(12) If evil and suffering exist, then God is either not omnipotent, not omniscient, or not perfectly good.

---

Since evil and suffering obviously do exist, we get:

Quote:

---

(13) God is either not omnipotent, not omniscient, or not perfectly good.

---

Putting the point more bluntly, this line of argument suggests thatin light of the evil and suffering we find in our worldif God exists, he is either impotent, ignorant or wicked. It should be obvious that (13) conflicts with (1) through (3) above. To make the conflict more clear, we can combine (1), (2) and (3) into the following single statement.

Quote:

---

(14) God is omnipotent, omniscient and perfectly good.

---

There is no way that (13) and (14) could both be true at the same time. These statements are logically inconsistent or contradictory.
James Beebe

I am not arguing for atheism because I am a Christian.
I am arguing a position that is grounded in Scripture. "God is love" I John 4

God is love - full stop. God does not control physics nor science. God does bring love to this world as tragedy strikes our live individually and communally.

---

---

You claim that there is nothing that is supernatural. Scripture holds that the Word became flesh and dwelt among us (a supernatural event). Please reconcile your claim with this basic element of the Christian faith.

Coke Bear said:

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Waco1947 said:

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My God of love is with the survivors of that sad event in Turkey and Syria. There is an out pouring love through monetary gifts, volunteers and material aid. The good news is that God is with us in all the crisises of our lives and the worlds. The witness of the scripture is that this God of love is real.

---

You're halfway there!

God, with his permissive will, allows these events to happen. But He knows that a greater good (Like what you mentioned above) can arise from this tragedy.

St Thomas falls into these fallacies:
(9) If God knows about all of the evil and suffering in the world, knows how to eliminate or prevent it, is powerful enough to prevent it, and yet does not prevent it, he must not be perfectly good.


(10) If God knows about all of the evil and suffering, knows how to eliminate or prevent it, wants to prevent it, and yet does not do so, he must not be all- powerful.

(11) If God is powerful enough to prevent all of the evil and suffering, wants to do so, and yet does not, he must not know about all of the suffering or know how to eliminate or prevent itthat is, he must not be all-knowing.


Luke 13:4 - Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?

Matt 5:45 - ... for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

Finally, God created the world "in statu viae," in a state of journeying. As you know from science, the earth is still forming, changing. It is bound to the law of physics. Earthquakes happen. Hurricanes happen. Floods happen.

St. Thomas Aquinas defined love as "willing the good of another." Thru free will, man has the ability to help our fellow man when events like this happen. That is Love.

---

I mentioned Catholics along with fundamentalists and evangelical as to their rigid adherence to doctrine in the face of reality.

Coke Bear said:

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Waco1947 said:

---

No theodicy can hold these 3 options together.
1. God is love which is the overwhelming witness of Scripture
2. God is all power meaning God can control physics.
3. Evil exists
Turkey earthquake neither evil or good but simply physics.

If Gpd is loving and 38,000 innocent people die as a result of physics then why would a God of physics allow 38,000 innocent people to die.
38,000 people who were in the wrong place at the wrong time sleeping and God wipes them out..

Evangelicals and I assume Catholics believe in an all power God and their only proof is "The Bible says so."

To ask God to hold both all physical power and all loving power cannot philosophically hold together without fantastic mental gymnastics.

---

I thank you for your honest answer. I disagree with your premises, but I thank you none the less.

Having said that, I will forth that we both believe in the Christian afterlife called Heaven. Paraphrasing - living in perfect happiness enjoying the beatific vision.

I assume that we agree that our earthly existence in NOT heaven. We all experience pain, suffering, loss, etc. Death is not the END. It is the beginning for those who die in friendship with the Lord.

Yes, death is not the end but the friends, families, and community are left behind in more pain and suffering before. Again there is problem of the all powerful, all knowing god. That god did nothing yet you claim that in his power he could. That standing by is evil itself and against the God of love whose final reality is grace, justice, and love.

Finally, I assume that you believe that God can reward those 38,000 innocent people who died with Heaven. Yes, they died earlier that they may now have wanted; however, I have to believe that those "elect" are now enjoying the beatific vision and are more alive today that we on earth. They are seeing the face of God. Does God give that reward to all? If God is gracious then all rewarded?

Thank you for your kind reply.

---

Waco1947 said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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JXL said:

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Waco1947 said:

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So could God stop the Turkey/Syria Earthquake? Was it God's will? 28,500 innocent lives.

Superstition cannot die soon enough. quash

---

I'll ask for the third time (not that I'm expecting an answer): Does the Bible guarantee that everyone will enjoy a pain-free, stress-free, worry-free life?

---

Anyone who has read Job should be able to answer that question.

Shewt, most of Genesis and Exodus make that plain as well.

---

God's answer in Job: "I am God so shut up."

---

So let's look at that book, see what God really said. Helps to go to the source ...

Job 1:1 "There was a man in the land of Uz whose name was Job. And this man was blameless and upright, fearing God and shunning evil."

Job 1:3b "Job was the greatest man of all the people of the East."

That's how the book starts. Now stop for a moment, and ask yourself how many people are described that way in the Bible.

Now stop and think how many people you know, who could be described in that way. For myself, that number is 'zero'. I know a lot of people and have seen them do a lot of good, but none I could say were 'blameless' or 'greatest man of all the people'.

OK then, moving on, what does God think of Job? We are told that in Job 1:8: "Then the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered My servant Job? For there is no one on earth like him, a man who is blameless and upright, who fears God and shuns evil."

Again, go through your Bible and find me one other person who gets that kind of talk from God Himself.

This part often gets lost in discussing Job's situation. People either assume all men are evil in some way so Job was actually guilty of sin. But that would make Satan right in his accusations and God wrong in praising Job as Righteous.

But if Job is Righteous, why does he suffer? And why does God say to Job what he does in that book after Job complains?

Well, look at what God actually says to Job.

Job 38:2-3 "Who is this who obscures My counsel

by words without knowledge?
Now brace yourself like a man;
I will question you, and you shall inform Me"

That's where Waco got his 'shut up' remark, the idea that God is just telling Job to be quiet and not complain. But if you actually pay attention, you may observe that God is not aiming his comments to Job but to rebuke Satan.

Don't forget that right at the start, Job's troubles start because Satan accuses him and tries to play God. After all, everything that Job suffers is Satan's design. Satan wants to play God, but the most he can do is trouble Job for a time, and - spoiler alert - God can undo all the harm Satan caused.

So what can we say about God? God reminds us:

"I laid the foundations of the earth" Job 38:4a
God set the seas and skies (Job 38:8-10)
God controls light and darkness (Job 38:12-21)
God controls weather (Job 38:22-30)
God set the stars and planets in place (Job 38:36-38)
God ordained the biosphere (Job 38:39-41)

There's more of course, but the point here is not that Job is outclassed and has no standing to complain to God, neither does Satan.

God allows Satan to do certain things as part of God's plan for us. He allows Satan only to do some things, not whatever he wants. Or as is written in Job 38:11a

"I declared: 'You may come this far, but no farther"

God also reminds us that Satan is on trial here, not Job. Job 40:2 reads:

"Will the faultfinder contend with the Almighty?
Let him who argues with God give an answer."

Satan thought to use Job as a proxy to attack God, but God turns it back on Satan. After all, in Job 1:9-11

"Satan answered the LORD, "Does Job fear God for nothing? Have You not placed a hedge on every side around him and his household and all that he owns? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. But stretch out Your hand and strike all that he has, and he will surely curse You to Your face."

Satan accuses God via Job and makes a failed argument.

In Job 2:3 God reminds Satan of this:

"Then the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered My servant Job? For there is no one on earth like him, a man who is blameless and upright, who fears God and shuns evil. He still retains his integrity, even though you incited Me against him to ruin him without cause."

Satan has failed his attack.

So what exactly is going on?

Go back to when I asked if there was another person who stood in such high regard in Scripture. Actually, there is one other, and that is the Christ.

With that in mind, consider these verses from Job:

Job 19:25-27 "But I know that my Redeemer lives,

and in the end He will stand upon the earth.
Even after my skin has been destroyed,
yet in my flesh I will see God.
I will see Him for myself;
my eyes will behold Him, and not as a stranger.
How my heart yearns within me!"

Job 27:4-6 "my lips will not speak wickedness,
and my tongue will not utter deceit.
I will never say that you are right;
I will maintain my integrity until I die.
I will cling to my righteousness and never let go.
As long as I live, my conscience will not accuse me."

Job 29:11-17 "For those who heard me called me blessed,

and those who saw me commended me,
because I rescued the poor who cried out
and the fatherless who had no helper.
The dying man blessed me,
and I made the widow's heart sing for joy.
I put on righteousness, and it clothed me;
justice was my robe and my turban.
I served as eyes to the blind
and as feet to the lame.
I was a father to the needy,
and I took up the case of the stranger.
I shattered the fangs of the unjust
and snatched the prey from his teeth".

and Job 30:10-13 "They abhor me and keep far from me;

they do not hesitate to spit in my face.
Because God has unstrung my bow and afflicted me,
they have cast off restraint in my presence.
The rabble arises at my right;
they lay snares for my feet
and build siege ramps against me.
They tear up my path;
they profit from my destruction,
with no one to restrain them"

Does that seem to match certain parts of the Gospel accounts?

And in Chapter 32, Elihu rebuked Job's accusers:

Job 32:12: "I paid you full attention.

But no one proved Job wrong;
not one of you rebutted his arguments."

Interesting comment, hmm?

As for God, in Job 42 He speaks to Job's accusers thus:

Job 42:7b "My wrath is kindled against you and your two friends. For you have not spoken about Me accurately, as My servant Job has"

Job 42:8b "My servant Job will pray for you, for I will accept his prayer and not deal with you according to your folly. For you have not spoken accurately about Me, as My servant Job has.

Waco's mistake seems to be that he doesn't think beyond the surface. Job has plainly been found innocent among men, he just has no standing to accuse God.

And God Himself praises Job repeatedly, as an upright and righteous man front to back. There is no man who lays a just charge against Job. And Job speaks rightly when he observes that God alone has the authority to speak regarding what a man receives for his life.

It is Man's conceit that someone has a 'right' to wealth, health or peace. These are all good things and worth pursuing, but not something we can demand as our birthright.

This is part of why we depend on Christ for our Advocate. He may speak on our behalf to the Father, because we do not have standing to defend ourselves before God, even if we were as blameless and upright as Job.

Of course, all this is inconvenient for someone who worships themselves and has no regard for God. But I can't help with that.

Waco1947 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Coke Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Coke Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

So could God stop the Turkey/Syria Earthquake? Was it God's will? 28,500 innocent lives.

Superstition cannot die soon enough. quash

---

Did Gog create those 28,000 lives?
Is God the author of all life?

---

And the taker? What a horrible superstition of a god.

---

Why?

---

No theodicy can hold these 3 options together.
1. God is love which is the overwhelming witness of Scripture
2. God is all power meaning God can control physics.
3. Evil exists
Turkey earthquake neither evil or good but simply physics.

If Gpd is loving and 38,000 innocent people die as a result of physics then why would a God of physics allow 38,000 innocent people to die.
38,000 people who were in the wrong place at the wrong time sleeping and God wipes them out..

Evangelicals and I assume Catholics believe in an all power God and their only proof is "The Bible says so."

To ask God to hold both all physical power and all loving power cannot philosophically hold together without fantastic mental gymnastics.

---

It can EASILY philosophically hold together, if you will just open your mind to the possibility that God may have a purpose for evil and suffering, and will work it all out at the end for GOOD. God's first and truest and ultimate actuality is love and trumps all other claims as to God's nature. "God may have purpose for 39,000 dead in Turkey" goes against God's ultimate nature of love.
Your premise is "God has a purpose for suffering of innocents" is faulty.
Because if evil exists and if God knows about all of the evil and suffering in the world, knows how to eliminate or prevent it, is powerful enough to prevent it, and yet does not prevent it, he must not be perfectly good.

(10) If God knows about all of the evil and suffering, knows how to eliminate or prevent it, wants to prevent it, and yet does not do so, he must not be all- powerful.
(11) If God is powerful enough to prevent all of the evil and suffering, wants to do so, and yet does not, he must not know about all of the suffering or know how to eliminate or prevent itthat is, he must not be all-knowing.

From (9) through (11) we can infer:

Quote:

---

(12) If evil and suffering exist, then God is either not omnipotent, not omniscient, or not perfectly good.

---

Since evil and suffering obviously do exist, we get:

Quote:

---

(13) God is either not omnipotent, not omniscient, or not perfectly good.

---

Putting the point more bluntly, this line of argument suggests thatin light of the evil and suffering we find in our worldif God exists, he is either impotent, ignorant or wicked. It should be obvious that (13) conflicts with (1) through (3) above. To make the conflict more clear, we can combine (1), (2) and (3) into the following single statement.

Quote:

---

(14) God is omnipotent, omniscient and perfectly good.

---

There is no way that (13) and (14) could both be true at the same time. These statements are logically inconsistent or contradictory.
James Beebe

I am not arguing for atheism because I am a Christian.
I am arguing a position that is grounded in Scripture. "God is love" I John 4

God is love - full stop. God does not control physics nor science. God does bring love to this world as tragedy strikes our live individually and communally.

---

---

Preface: I know that none of this you will absorb. You will deflect it all away as you've always done to anything that challenges your defense mechanism. But since I believe that all falseness must be answered with the truth, here goes:

You are merely repeating the failed logical assertion that if God is both all-powerful and loving, then He MUST prevent pain and suffering, otherwises he is not one or the other. Myself and others have explained why this is false, and you have not refuted any of it.

Here is your central problem: 58,000 dead from an earthquake is bad to us in the here and now; BUT YOU HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO EARTHLY CLUE IF IT IS ULTIMATELY BAD OR GOOD. God, and ONLY God, knows the end of all things. So if he is using evil and suffering that's happening to us in the here and now for a greater good for us later, then it would be perfectly consistent with a loving God. You just aren't allowing for God to be able to do this, because you don't have faith. It's as simple as that. Rather, you are bringing God down to your level, and with your (very) limited mind and perspective, you believe that YOUR perception of what is evil and what is good is the standard by which God must be judged. By the way, this is exactly the theme of the book of Job. It's fitting and revealing that you completely missed the meaning of it earlier, when you mockingly reduced its meaning to "I am God, so shut up Job".

Your argument is like a child believing that since he wants candy for dinner, and his parents know that but they don't give it to him, it must mean, and ONLY mean, that his parents either don't love him, or that they don't have the power to give him candy. Do you think the child might be missing another possibility? A possibility where BOTH may still be true?

Waco1947 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Coke Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Coke Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

So could God stop the Turkey/Syria Earthquake? Was it God's will? 28,500 innocent lives.

Superstition cannot die soon enough. quash

---

Did Gog create those 28,000 lives?
Is God the author of all life?

---

And the taker? What a horrible superstition of a god.

---

Why?

---

No theodicy can hold these 3 options together.
1. God is love which is the overwhelming witness of Scripture
2. God is all power meaning God can control physics.
3. Evil exists
Turkey earthquake neither evil or good but simply physics.

If Gpd is loving and 38,000 innocent people die as a result of physics then why would a God of physics allow 38,000 innocent people to die.
38,000 people who were in the wrong place at the wrong time sleeping and God wipes them out..

Evangelicals and I assume Catholics believe in an all power God and their only proof is "The Bible says so."

To ask God to hold both all physical power and all loving power cannot philosophically hold together without fantastic mental gymnastics.

---

It can EASILY philosophically hold together, if you will just open your mind to the possibility that God may have a purpose for evil and suffering, and will work it all out at the end for GOOD. God's first and truest and ultimate actuality is love and trumps all other claims as to God's nature. "God may have purpose for 39,000 dead in Turkey" goes against God's ultimate nature of love.
Your premise is "God has a purpose for suffering of innocents" is faulty.
Because if evil exists and if God knows about all of the evil and suffering in the world, knows how to eliminate or prevent it, is powerful enough to prevent it, and yet does not prevent it, he must not be perfectly good.

(10) If God knows about all of the evil and suffering, knows how to eliminate or prevent it, wants to prevent it, and yet does not do so, he must not be all- powerful.
(11) If God is powerful enough to prevent all of the evil and suffering, wants to do so, and yet does not, he must not know about all of the suffering or know how to eliminate or prevent itthat is, he must not be all-knowing.

From (9) through (11) we can infer:

Quote:

---

(12) If evil and suffering exist, then God is either not omnipotent, not omniscient, or not perfectly good.

---

Since evil and suffering obviously do exist, we get:

Quote:

---

(13) God is either not omnipotent, not omniscient, or not perfectly good.

---

Putting the point more bluntly, this line of argument suggests thatin light of the evil and suffering we find in our worldif God exists, he is either impotent, ignorant or wicked. It should be obvious that (13) conflicts with (1) through (3) above. To make the conflict more clear, we can combine (1), (2) and (3) into the following single statement.

Quote:

---

(14) God is omnipotent, omniscient and perfectly good.

---

There is no way that (13) and (14) could both be true at the same time. These statements are logically inconsistent or contradictory.
James Beebe

I am not arguing for atheism because I am a Christian.
I am arguing a position that is grounded in Scripture. "God is love" I John 4

God is love - full stop. God does not control physics nor science. God does bring love to this world as tragedy strikes our live individually and communally.

---

---

How would you suggest that a hypothetically omnipotent God could or should put an end to all evil in the world?

JXL said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Coke Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Coke Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

So could God stop the Turkey/Syria Earthquake? Was it God's will? 28,500 innocent lives.

Superstition cannot die soon enough. quash

---

Did Gog create those 28,000 lives?
Is God the author of all life?

---

And the taker? What a horrible superstition of a god.

---

Why?

---

No theodicy can hold these 3 options together.
1. God is love which is the overwhelming witness of Scripture
2. God is all power meaning God can control physics.
3. Evil exists
Turkey earthquake neither evil or good but simply physics.

If Gpd is loving and 38,000 innocent people die as a result of physics then why would a God of physics allow 38,000 innocent people to die.
38,000 people who were in the wrong place at the wrong time sleeping and God wipes them out..

Evangelicals and I assume Catholics believe in an all power God and their only proof is "The Bible says so."

To ask God to hold both all physical power and all loving power cannot philosophically hold together without fantastic mental gymnastics.

---

It can EASILY philosophically hold together, if you will just open your mind to the possibility that God may have a purpose for evil and suffering, and will work it all out at the end for GOOD. God's first and truest and ultimate actuality is love and trumps all other claims as to God's nature. "God may have purpose for 39,000 dead in Turkey" goes against God's ultimate nature of love.
Your premise is "God has a purpose for suffering of innocents" is faulty.
Because if evil exists and if God knows about all of the evil and suffering in the world, knows how to eliminate or prevent it, is powerful enough to prevent it, and yet does not prevent it, he must not be perfectly good.

(10) If God knows about all of the evil and suffering, knows how to eliminate or prevent it, wants to prevent it, and yet does not do so, he must not be all- powerful.
(11) If God is powerful enough to prevent all of the evil and suffering, wants to do so, and yet does not, he must not know about all of the suffering or know how to eliminate or prevent itthat is, he must not be all-knowing.

From (9) through (11) we can infer:

Quote:

---

(12) If evil and suffering exist, then God is either not omnipotent, not omniscient, or not perfectly good.

---

Since evil and suffering obviously do exist, we get:

Quote:

---

(13) God is either not omnipotent, not omniscient, or not perfectly good.

---

Putting the point more bluntly, this line of argument suggests thatin light of the evil and suffering we find in our worldif God exists, he is either impotent, ignorant or wicked. It should be obvious that (13) conflicts with (1) through (3) above. To make the conflict more clear, we can combine (1), (2) and (3) into the following single statement.

Quote:

---

(14) God is omnipotent, omniscient and perfectly good.

---

There is no way that (13) and (14) could both be true at the same time. These statements are logically inconsistent or contradictory.
James Beebe

I am not arguing for atheism because I am a Christian.
I am arguing a position that is grounded in Scripture. "God is love" I John 4

God is love - full stop. God does not control physics nor science. God does bring love to this world as tragedy strikes our live individually and communally.

---

---

How would you suggest that a hypothetically omnipotent God could or should put an end to all evil in the world? This is my question to you. You are the one who makes the claim

---

More thought for you to read: Because if evil exists and if God knows about all of the evil and suffering in the world, knows how to eliminate or prevent it, is powerful enough to prevent it, and yet does not prevent it, he must not be perfectly good.

Waco1947 said:

---

JXL said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Coke Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Coke Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

So could God stop the Turkey/Syria Earthquake? Was it God's will? 28,500 innocent lives.

Superstition cannot die soon enough. quash

---

Did Gog create those 28,000 lives?
Is God the author of all life?

---

And the taker? What a horrible superstition of a god.

---

Why?

---

No theodicy can hold these 3 options together.
1. God is love which is the overwhelming witness of Scripture
2. God is all power meaning God can control physics.
3. Evil exists
Turkey earthquake neither evil or good but simply physics.

If Gpd is loving and 38,000 innocent people die as a result of physics then why would a God of physics allow 38,000 innocent people to die.
38,000 people who were in the wrong place at the wrong time sleeping and God wipes them out..

Evangelicals and I assume Catholics believe in an all power God and their only proof is "The Bible says so."

To ask God to hold both all physical power and all loving power cannot philosophically hold together without fantastic mental gymnastics.

---

It can EASILY philosophically hold together, if you will just open your mind to the possibility that God may have a purpose for evil and suffering, and will work it all out at the end for GOOD. God's first and truest and ultimate actuality is love and trumps all other claims as to God's nature. "God may have purpose for 39,000 dead in Turkey" goes against God's ultimate nature of love.
Your premise is "God has a purpose for suffering of innocents" is faulty.
Because if evil exists and if God knows about all of the evil and suffering in the world, knows how to eliminate or prevent it, is powerful enough to prevent it, and yet does not prevent it, he must not be perfectly good.

(10) If God knows about all of the evil and suffering, knows how to eliminate or prevent it, wants to prevent it, and yet does not do so, he must not be all- powerful.
(11) If God is powerful enough to prevent all of the evil and suffering, wants to do so, and yet does not, he must not know about all of the suffering or know how to eliminate or prevent itthat is, he must not be all-knowing.

From (9) through (11) we can infer:

Quote:

---

(12) If evil and suffering exist, then God is either not omnipotent, not omniscient, or not perfectly good.

---

Since evil and suffering obviously do exist, we get:

Quote:

---

(13) God is either not omnipotent, not omniscient, or not perfectly good.

---

Putting the point more bluntly, this line of argument suggests thatin light of the evil and suffering we find in our worldif God exists, he is either impotent, ignorant or wicked. It should be obvious that (13) conflicts with (1) through (3) above. To make the conflict more clear, we can combine (1), (2) and (3) into the following single statement.

Quote:

---

(14) God is omnipotent, omniscient and perfectly good.

---

There is no way that (13) and (14) could both be true at the same time. These statements are logically inconsistent or contradictory.
James Beebe

I am not arguing for atheism because I am a Christian.
I am arguing a position that is grounded in Scripture. "God is love" I John 4

God is love - full stop. God does not control physics nor science. God does bring love to this world as tragedy strikes our live individually and communally.

---

---

How would you suggest that a hypothetically omnipotent God could or should put an end to all evil in the world? This is my question to you. You are the one who makes the claim

---

More thought for you to read: Because if evil exists and if God knows about all of the evil and suffering in the world, knows how to eliminate or prevent it, is powerful enough to prevent it, and yet does not prevent it, he must not be perfectly good.

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Waco, you keep rephrasing the same contention over and over as if you are saying something new, when all you really do is refuse to address valid answers to the last several times you asked the same question.

You accuse God of being either incompetent or not Good. I contend you speak out of malice, not a search for wisdom.

Let's start with the undeniable fact that Evil exists in the world. Do you agree?

Let's also set that Good exists in world. Do you agree?

If we can agree on those two points, we can actually go somewhere productive with this discussion.

I look forward to your clear and honest response.

Oldbear83 said:

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Waco1947 said:

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JXL said:

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Waco1947 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Waco1947 said:

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Coke Bear said:

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Waco1947 said:

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Coke Bear said:

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Waco1947 said:

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So could God stop the Turkey/Syria Earthquake? Was it God's will? 28,500 innocent lives.

Superstition cannot die soon enough. quash

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Did Gog create those 28,000 lives?
Is God the author of all life?

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And the taker? What a horrible superstition of a god.

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Why?

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No theodicy can hold these 3 options together.
1. God is love which is the overwhelming witness of Scripture
2. God is all power meaning God can control physics.
3. Evil exists
Turkey earthquake neither evil or good but simply physics.

If Gpd is loving and 38,000 innocent people die as a result of physics then why would a God of physics allow 38,000 innocent people to die.
38,000 people who were in the wrong place at the wrong time sleeping and God wipes them out..

Evangelicals and I assume Catholics believe in an all power God and their only proof is "The Bible says so."

To ask God to hold both all physical power and all loving power cannot philosophically hold together without fantastic mental gymnastics.

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It can EASILY philosophically hold together, if you will just open your mind to the possibility that God may have a purpose for evil and suffering, and will work it all out at the end for GOOD. God's first and truest and ultimate actuality is love and trumps all other claims as to God's nature. "God may have purpose for 39,000 dead in Turkey" goes against God's ultimate nature of love.
Your premise is "God has a purpose for suffering of innocents" is faulty.
Because if evil exists and if God knows about all of the evil and suffering in the world, knows how to eliminate or prevent it, is powerful enough to prevent it, and yet does not prevent it, he must not be perfectly good.

(10) If God knows about all of the evil and suffering, knows how to eliminate or prevent it, wants to prevent it, and yet does not do so, he must not be all- powerful.
(11) If God is powerful enough to prevent all of the evil and suffering, wants to do so, and yet does not, he must not know about all of the suffering or know how to eliminate or prevent itthat is, he must not be all-knowing.

From (9) through (11) we can infer:

Quote:

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(12) If evil and suffering exist, then God is either not omnipotent, not omniscient, or not perfectly good.

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Since evil and suffering obviously do exist, we get:

Quote:

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(13) God is either not omnipotent, not omniscient, or not perfectly good.

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Putting the point more bluntly, this line of argument suggests thatin light of the evil and suffering we find in our worldif God exists, he is either impotent, ignorant or wicked. It should be obvious that (13) conflicts with (1) through (3) above. To make the conflict more clear, we can combine (1), (2) and (3) into the following single statement.

Quote:

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(14) God is omnipotent, omniscient and perfectly good.

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There is no way that (13) and (14) could both be true at the same time. These statements are logically inconsistent or contradictory.
James Beebe

I am not arguing for atheism because I am a Christian.
I am arguing a position that is grounded in Scripture. "God is love" I John 4

God is love - full stop. God does not control physics nor science. God does bring love to this world as tragedy strikes our live individually and communally.

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How would you suggest that a hypothetically omnipotent God could or should put an end to all evil in the world? This is my question to you. You are the one who makes the claim

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More thought for you to read: Because if evil exists and if God knows about all of the evil and suffering in the world, knows how to eliminate or prevent it, is powerful enough to prevent it, and yet does not prevent it, he must not be perfectly good.

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Waco, you keep rephrasing the same contention over and over as if you are saying something new, when all you really do is refuse to address valid answers to the last several times you asked the same question.

You accuse God of being either incompetent or not Good. I contend you speak out of malice, not a search for wisdom.

Let's start with the undeniable fact that Evil exists in the world. Do you agree? Yes

Let's also set that Good exists in world. Do you agree? Yes good exists in the world and it is wholly God. The "wholly" part means all good and theire is not room for evil in God's nature.

If we can agree on those two points, we can actually go somewhere productive with this discussion.

I look forward to your clear and honest response.

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