All too often the bureaucrats cannot handle it, especially when they are not held accountable.

historian said:

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All too often the bureaucrats cannot handle it, especially when they are not held accountable.

---

Bureaucracy is fine, if kept to its area of expertise. They are there for a reason. When you start having engineers, physicist, logistics experts worrying about other ****, forcing certain answers or worse changing standards for non-technical reasons you will have problems. So, in that context I agree. Let these people do their jobs, believe it or not many of them actually like their jobs. Most technical people are truly interested in it. The political bull**** is what is the problem.

FLBear5630 said:

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Whiskey Pete said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Whiskey Pete said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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I am not sure it hurts him in the election.

The upside is that Trump will have a lot of room to make improvements both Domestically and Internationally if he wins. Early success and strong messaging to our adversaries would go a long way in all this being a non-issue.

Nice thing about following Biden, there are opportunities. IF he does not get bogged down in the retribution tour. If he goes after gutting Civil Servants in DC and trying to set up loyalty oaths (which I have a hard time believing anyone would be that stupid to require. Sounds like propaganda, but it is out there) he will have a hard time.

---

The USA is/has been becoming an administrative state. A state where unelected bureaucrats issue rules or regulations that are then treated like law. Rules and regulations that haven't been introduced as bills or debated on or voted on by our elected leaders.

This needs to stop. The alphabet agencies should not have the power to regulate squat. Their sole role should be as an advisory. Then let our elected "leaders" take it up, introduce it as a bill, debate it, then vote on it.

Trump/DeSantis/Haley/WhoTheHellEver needs to root it out, dismantle it and send it on its way. There are way too many Washington bureaucrats, UNELECTED bureaucrats that have gained too much power over too many decades in DC.

If Trump decides (he really needs to) take on this administrative ideology, it will be labeled as the "Revenge Tour". Let's face it, gov't has grown too big for its britches, these Civil "Servants", many of them are only serving their own needs or the needs of who they can benefit from the most.

---

There are a lot of "rules, regulations and standards" that are necessary, if you want to have a safe, reliable and efficient Nation. Just in the transportation arena - FAA, NITSA, FRA, FTA, not even getting into Maritime.

So, I have mixed feelings about what you say. You guys seem to think that everyone that works for the Government is a loser that is incompetent. Alot of what you take for granted is managed by those incompetents. We take drinking water, solid waste, airline travel, railroad shipping, maritime, pipelines, and non-sexy things you never think about asphalt conditions, bridge maintenance, hell even debris and trash pick-up along limited access roads. All those things don't just happen and many times the standard has to be MORE than just the cheapest way to do it. Those bureaucrats are the ones managing that. I only deal with Highway Patrol, but just start looking into the complexity of law enforcement and security.

I pray Trump doesn't start messing with that stuff because it would be more profitable to not require maintenance standards on planes and bridges...

---

Where did I say they weren't necessary? Please point to where I alluded to that. My argument is and always has been any rule or regulation should put into place by people we elect to office. That is, unless you like rule by fiat from unelected bureaucrats.

And where did I say bureaucrats were losers or incompetent in that post? We should NOT delegate so much power to people that weren't elected.

I swear, your level of comprehension is seriously below average.

---

You are going to leave Airline safety to electeds? Have you ever met one? There is absolutely no way that electeds can do what needs to be done on an annual, monthly and daily basis. Nevermind continuity, you can't change things every 4 years. Sorry, most of the bureaucracy is needed and serves a real purpose. No way elected officials can handle that.

---

You want your daily life affected by unelected bureaucrats deciding which car you can drive, which stove you can buy? Bureaucrats that don't answer to the people and don't ever get drunk with power? You know, like bureaucrats in the CDC that think they have a say over private property rights (thankfully SCOTUS slapped that one down).

Of course you do though, you're a big gov't guy

FLBear5630 said:

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historian said:

---

All too often the bureaucrats cannot handle it, especially when they are not held accountable.

---

Bureaucracy is fine, if kept to its area of expertise. They are there for a reason. When you start having engineers, physicist, logistics experts worrying about other ****, forcing certain answers or worse changing standards for non-technical reasons you will have problems. So, in that context I agree. Let these people do their jobs, believe it or not many of them actually like their jobs. Most technical people are truly interested in it. The political bull**** is what is the problem.

---

"expertise", so you think only people who are experts in an area get appointed to the DC and never the person with the right political connections?

The alphabet agencies should consult with congress, supply facts and make recommendations. Those recommendations should then be voted on by people we send to DC.

Sorry bro, but giving so much power to unelected people that are not accountable to the voters, is never a good thing.

FLBear5630 said:

---

You are going to leave Airline safety to electeds? Have you ever met one? There is absolutely no way that electeds can do what needs to be done on an annual, monthly and daily basis. Nevermind continuity, you can't change things every 4 years. Sorry, most of the bureaucracy is needed and serves a real purpose. No way elected officials can handle that.

---

Meet your airline safety bureaucrazy.

"The Federal Aviation Administration is actively recruiting workers who suffer "severe intellectual" disabilities, psychiatric problems and other mental and physical conditions under a diversity and inclusion hiring initiative spelled out on the agency's website.

"Targeted disabilities are those disabilities that the Federal government, as a matter of policy, has identified for special emphasis in recruitment and hiring," the FAA's website states. "They include hearing, vision, missing extremities, partial paralysis, complete paralysis, epilepsy, severe intellectual disability, psychiatric disability and dwarfism."

https://nypost.com/2024/01/14/news/faas-diversity-push-includes-hiring-people-with-intellectual-and-psychiatric-disabilities/

Bureaucracies have a life cycle. Ours is somewhere between the late bloat stage and cuts in services.




Remember after 9-11 when Bush announced funding for an effort to retrain the tens of thousands of laid off airline personnel that had lost their jobs? The program was implemented in such a way that anyone with a college degree was automatically eliminated from eligibility and only certain fields of study were approved (in health care, for instance, massage therapy was approved). The bureaucrats designed the entire program to accepted the funding and severely restrict how it was distributed to the people it was intended to help.

Whiskey Pete said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

historian said:

---

All too often the bureaucrats cannot handle it, especially when they are not held accountable.

---

Bureaucracy is fine, if kept to its area of expertise. They are there for a reason. When you start having engineers, physicist, logistics experts worrying about other ****, forcing certain answers or worse changing standards for non-technical reasons you will have problems. So, in that context I agree. Let these people do their jobs, believe it or not many of them actually like their jobs. Most technical people are truly interested in it. The political bull**** is what is the problem.

---

"expertise", so you think only people who are experts in an area get appointed to the DC and never the person with the right political connections?

The alphabet agencies should consult with congress, supply facts and make recommendations. Those recommendations should then be voted on by people we send to DC.

Sorry bro, but giving so much power to unelected people that are not accountable to the voters, is never a good thing.

---

The whole purpose of Civil Service is to make sure that qualified people are in jobs. I guarantee you that if a job requires a PE (Professional Engineer) or other technical requirement you cannot fake that. Either you have the license, education or not.

It appears we are talking two different things. The Federal Govt Bureaucracy is the career professionals that work in the various Agencies and Departments. NOT the politically appointed, those positions are usually at the Secretary, Under-Secretary, Administrator levels. They are not the career professionals. They are appointed.

Go to Ft Detrick, you do not want people that don't know what they are doing managing that research. Go the FAA, you do not want people that do not know aviation managing air safety. You do not want non-Engineers inspecting bridges. All these are extremes, but you should get the point. You can't just appoint or elect people to create professional standards and regulations that have no idea what they are doing.

You really want Gaetz and Greene determining Air Safety Standards?????

FLBear5630 said:

---

historian said:

---

All too often the bureaucrats cannot handle it, especially when they are not held accountable.

---

Bureaucracy is fine, if kept to its area of expertise. They are there for a reason. When you start having engineers, physicist, logistics experts worrying about other ****, forcing certain answers or worse changing standards for non-technical reasons you will have problems. So, in that context I agree. Let these people do their jobs, believe it or not many of them actually like their jobs. Most technical people are truly interested in it. The political bull**** is what is the problem.

---

This kind of thinking is what has gotten the nation into so much trouble. Bureaucrats relentlessly test the limits of their powers.

Bureaucrats have killed coal power, by defining carbon itself as a pollutant, which has launched of a bold new world of regulatory growth throughout the economy. No law was passed to accomplish any of that.

Bureaucrats have changed the definition of what is a boy and what is a girl, literally using Title IX, a law passed to ensure that girls have the same public investment as boys to derive the benefits of competitive sports, to force boys into girl's locker rooms, into girl's competitive events. It's a "jump the shark" moment.

Political bull**** is indeed a problem, but at least we can unelect the electeds. The bureaucrats we have no control over whatsoever.

historian said:

---

All too often the bureaucrats cannot handle it, especially when they are not held accountable.

---

Some bureaucrats despise entrepreneurs because they instinctively realize they did not they have the guts or brains to succeed in the private sector.

Once had a fed bureaucrat blatantly attempt to deny my operation participation in a federal herd reduction program because he couldn't stand the thought of a 27 year old owner getting more compensation over a 3 year period than he would acquire in salary in over a decade.

While still in his office I simply called the assistant secretary of agriculture and got accepted.

The local slob was furious to get overruled.



40 years later I still remember his name.

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

historian said:

---

All too often the bureaucrats cannot handle it, especially when they are not held accountable.

---

Bureaucracy is fine, if kept to its area of expertise. They are there for a reason. When you start having engineers, physicist, logistics experts worrying about other ****, forcing certain answers or worse changing standards for non-technical reasons you will have problems. So, in that context I agree. Let these people do their jobs, believe it or not many of them actually like their jobs. Most technical people are truly interested in it. The political bull**** is what is the problem.

---

This kind of thinking is what has gotten the nation into so much trouble. Bureaucrats relentlessly test the limits of their powers.

Bureaucrats have killed coal power, by defining carbon itself as a pollutant, which has launched of a bold new world of regulatory growth throughout the economy. No law was passed to accomplish any of that.

Bureaucrats have changed the definition of what is a boy and what is a girl, literally using Title IX, a law passed to ensure that girls have the same public investment as boys to derive the benefits of competitive sports, to force boys into girl's locker rooms, into girl's competitive events. It's a "jump the shark" moment.

Political bull**** is indeed a problem, but at least we can unelect the electeds. The bureaucrats we have no control over whatsoever.

---

No, they didn't kill coal. The elected officials telling these people that they needed to clean the air and reduce fossil fuels. That was not the people that are setting and maintaining the regs. They don't set the policy. That comes from above and they figure how to get there.

That is the people you want to put in charge. There are extremes in both directions too much regulation and too little. But, just like the CIA. The elected's/appointees tell you what area of the world to focus, you just do it in the most efficient means possible.

Now, just like anything else there are zealots. No doubt. They have an agenda, but that is a small percentage of the total number of people. Most of the zealots I have met in Fed transportation were appointees. At least in transportation, safety is #1. How to make modes operate safer and still function at a high level. I really have not seen the "Deep State" you guys discuss outside of the Appointees. I take that back, transit it like that. Those people are a nightmare to work with...

FLBear5630 said:

---

Whiskey Pete said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

historian said:

---

All too often the bureaucrats cannot handle it, especially when they are not held accountable.

---

Bureaucracy is fine, if kept to its area of expertise. They are there for a reason. When you start having engineers, physicist, logistics experts worrying about other ****, forcing certain answers or worse changing standards for non-technical reasons you will have problems. So, in that context I agree. Let these people do their jobs, believe it or not many of them actually like their jobs. Most technical people are truly interested in it. The political bull**** is what is the problem.

---

"expertise", so you think only people who are experts in an area get appointed to the DC and never the person with the right political connections?

The alphabet agencies should consult with congress, supply facts and make recommendations. Those recommendations should then be voted on by people we send to DC.

Sorry bro, but giving so much power to unelected people that are not accountable to the voters, is never a good thing.

---

The whole purpose of Civil Service is to make sure that qualified people are in jobs. I guarantee you that if a job requires a PE (Professional Engineer) or other technical requirement you cannot fake that. Either you have the license, education or not.

It appears we are talking two different things. The Federal Govt Bureaucracy is the career professionals that work in the various Agencies and Departments. NOT the politically appointed, those positions are usually at the Secretary, Under-Secretary, Administrator levels. They are not the career professionals. They are appointed.

Go to Ft Detrick, you do not want people that don't know what they are doing managing that research. Go the FAA, you do not want people that do not know aviation managing air safety. You do not want non-Engineers inspecting bridges. All these are extremes, but you should get the point. You can't just appoint or elect people to create professional standards and regulations that have no idea what they are doing.

You really want Gaetz and Greene determining Air Safety Standards?????

---

Like I said, you're a big gov't guy. It's not surprising you're for unelected bureaucrats issuing regulations that are treated like law.

Giving that kind of power to people who are not held accountable to the American people, is not a good thing. For example, when the CDC felt they had the power to unsurp private property rights. Thankfully, SCOTUS slapped that one down.

Unelected bureaucrats with the power to issue edicts that are treated like law while not being held accountable to the voters, is never a good thing.

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

historian said:

---

All too often the bureaucrats cannot handle it, especially when they are not held accountable.

---

Bureaucracy is fine, if kept to its area of expertise. They are there for a reason. When you start having engineers, physicist, logistics experts worrying about other ****, forcing certain answers or worse changing standards for non-technical reasons you will have problems. So, in that context I agree. Let these people do their jobs, believe it or not many of them actually like their jobs. Most technical people are truly interested in it. The political bull**** is what is the problem.

---

This kind of thinking is what has gotten the nation into so much trouble. Bureaucrats relentlessly test the limits of their powers.

Bureaucrats have killed coal power, by defining carbon itself as a pollutant, which has launched of a bold new world of regulatory growth throughout the economy. No law was passed to accomplish any of that.

Bureaucrats have changed the definition of what is a boy and what is a girl, literally using Title IX, a law passed to ensure that girls have the same public investment as boys to derive the benefits of competitive sports, to force boys into girl's locker rooms, into girl's competitive events. It's a "jump the shark" moment.

Political bull**** is indeed a problem, but at least we can unelect the electeds. The bureaucrats we have no control over whatsoever.

---

No, they didn't kill coal. The elected officials telling these people that they needed to clean the air and reduce fossil fuels. That was not the people that are setting and maintaining the regs. They don't set the policy. That comes from above and they figure how to get there.

That is the people you want to put in charge. There are extremes in both directions too much regulation and too little. But, just like the CIA. The elected's/appointees tell you what area of the world to focus, you just do it in the most efficient means possible.

Now, just like anything else there are zealots. No doubt. They have an agenda, but that is a small percentage of the total number of people. Most of the zealots I have met in Fed transportation were appointees. At least in transportation, safety is #1. How to make modes operate safer and still function at a high level. I really have not seen the "Deep State" you guys discuss outside of the Appointees. I take that back, transit it like that. Those people are a nightmare to work with...

---

Unelected lifelong bureaucrats with the power to effectively write law, that aren't held accountable by the voter is not a good thing.

Except when the "experts" are wrong, a fairly common phenomenon. This often happens because of politics, look at what the Leftists did with covid (well, Fauci did send gobs of taxpayer dollars to the lab in China that created it, but they are often wrong on their own.

It's not just politics. Most bureaucracies are too big & bloated, have too much power, & no accountability.

historian said:

---

Except when the "experts" are wrong, a fairly common phenomenon.

---

Especially when these experts can afford for their agenda to supersede facts and data, since they're not held accountable by voters.

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

historian said:

---

All too often the bureaucrats cannot handle it, especially when they are not held accountable.

---

Bureaucracy is fine, if kept to its area of expertise. They are there for a reason. When you start having engineers, physicist, logistics experts worrying about other ****, forcing certain answers or worse changing standards for non-technical reasons you will have problems. So, in that context I agree. Let these people do their jobs, believe it or not many of them actually like their jobs. Most technical people are truly interested in it. The political bull**** is what is the problem.

---

This kind of thinking is what has gotten the nation into so much trouble. Bureaucrats relentlessly test the limits of their powers.

Bureaucrats have killed coal power, by defining carbon itself as a pollutant, which has launched of a bold new world of regulatory growth throughout the economy. No law was passed to accomplish any of that.

Bureaucrats have changed the definition of what is a boy and what is a girl, literally using Title IX, a law passed to ensure that girls have the same public investment as boys to derive the benefits of competitive sports, to force boys into girl's locker rooms, into girl's competitive events. It's a "jump the shark" moment.

Political bull**** is indeed a problem, but at least we can unelect the electeds. The bureaucrats we have no control over whatsoever.

---

No, they didn't kill coal. The elected officials telling these people that they needed to clean the air and reduce fossil fuels. That was not the people that are setting and maintaining the regs. They don't set the policy. That comes from above and they figure how to get there.

That is the people you want to put in charge. There are extremes in both directions too much regulation and too little. But, just like the CIA. The elected's/appointees tell you what area of the world to focus, you just do it in the most efficient means possible.

Now, just like anything else there are zealots. No doubt. They have an agenda, but that is a small percentage of the total number of people. Most of the zealots I have met in Fed transportation were appointees. At least in transportation, safety is #1. How to make modes operate safer and still function at a high level. I really have not seen the "Deep State" you guys discuss outside of the Appointees. I take that back, transit it like that. Those people are a nightmare to work with...

---

Nope. First step was a regulatory definition of carbon as a pollutant. Everything else flows from there.

Ex: Congress did not pass a law saying teachers had to use preferred pronouns. Yet, here we are, due so lowly to bureaucratic action.

https://t.co/raKwIOHdaI pic.twitter.com/LCWZTYPPL0

— Peter Boghossian (@peterboghossian) April 28, 2024

👨‍🔬🧵 https://t.co/0Y0eFYRx2N

— 𝐄𝐭𝐡𝐚𝐧 (𝐗) (@itsEFlyX) April 29, 2024

Whiskey Pete said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

historian said:

---

All too often the bureaucrats cannot handle it, especially when they are not held accountable.

---

Bureaucracy is fine, if kept to its area of expertise. They are there for a reason. When you start having engineers, physicist, logistics experts worrying about other ****, forcing certain answers or worse changing standards for non-technical reasons you will have problems. So, in that context I agree. Let these people do their jobs, believe it or not many of them actually like their jobs. Most technical people are truly interested in it. The political bull**** is what is the problem.

---

This kind of thinking is what has gotten the nation into so much trouble. Bureaucrats relentlessly test the limits of their powers.

Bureaucrats have killed coal power, by defining carbon itself as a pollutant, which has launched of a bold new world of regulatory growth throughout the economy. No law was passed to accomplish any of that.

Bureaucrats have changed the definition of what is a boy and what is a girl, literally using Title IX, a law passed to ensure that girls have the same public investment as boys to derive the benefits of competitive sports, to force boys into girl's locker rooms, into girl's competitive events. It's a "jump the shark" moment.

Political bull**** is indeed a problem, but at least we can unelect the electeds. The bureaucrats we have no control over whatsoever.

---

No, they didn't kill coal. The elected officials telling these people that they needed to clean the air and reduce fossil fuels. That was not the people that are setting and maintaining the regs. They don't set the policy. That comes from above and they figure how to get there.

That is the people you want to put in charge. There are extremes in both directions too much regulation and too little. But, just like the CIA. The elected's/appointees tell you what area of the world to focus, you just do it in the most efficient means possible.

Now, just like anything else there are zealots. No doubt. They have an agenda, but that is a small percentage of the total number of people. Most of the zealots I have met in Fed transportation were appointees. At least in transportation, safety is #1. How to make modes operate safer and still function at a high level. I really have not seen the "Deep State" you guys discuss outside of the Appointees. I take that back, transit it like that. Those people are a nightmare to work with...

---

Unelected lifelong bureaucrats with the power to effectively write law, that aren't held accountable by the voter is not a good thing.

---

They don't pass law. The Civil Service implements laws.

You guys are blaming the wrong group. They only can do what they are told to do. There is no mechanism to do what you say and write law. All standards are approved and at the direction of who is elected. I fear what you are having an issue with is as Obama said: Elections have consequences. Since 2008 there have only been 4 years of GOP control and that was not effective as Congress didn't support a lot of what Trump pushed. So, most of the laws on the books are Democratic Party based.

The GOP really has not had a President in office since George HW Bush that understood and knew the value of the Federal Civil Service. A professional civil service is actually a positive, except here. It is one of the attributes that allows Nations to grow. My problem, is that I agree with President Bush.

"President George H.W. Bush, who in his first days in office in 1989 took care to celebrate the "values of a professional civil service whose highest principle is one of patriotism, whose foremost commitment is to excellence, whose experience and expertise is in itself a national resource to be used and respected."

Trump needs to embrace it, because it is necessary. But he won't

The bureaucrats create rules & regulations, which have the force of law, and then enforce them, often ruthlessly and with extreme bias. Some of these federal agencies have their own police forces with military gear, not just the ATF. The IRS is adding 87,000 enforcers. Apparently, those hiring them wanted them to be willing to use deadly force.

While it is true that Congress authorized this gross injustice & does nothing to stop it (another reason for congressional term limits), it's the bureaucrats who are often guilty of grotesque crimes & grossly illegal & unconstitutional behavior. Meanwhile, we the people lose our money to the bloated leviathan & lose our freedoms one by one.

No wonder the fascists want to disarm us: they are more tyrannical than the British were in 1776!

"Trump needs to embrace it, because it is necessary. But he won't"

Exactly wrong. Trump correctly understands that the sheer bureaucracy of federal agencies has reached obscene hardship on businesses and many Americans, especially the poor who cannot afford the legal resources needed to work out a rational arrangement.

As one anecdotal account, my brother has Parkinson's and cannot use either leg nor his left arm. He therefore applied for Social Security benefits and Medicaid. After ignoring his application for two months, an SSA agent finally agreed to an interview, but demanded my brother appear in person at the downtown office on a Monday morning to satisfy this agent's skepticism regarding his despite sworn affidavits from multiple doctors.

My brother's doctor chose to show up in person and all but shouted at the agent's callous disregard for the hardship his demand would impose on a disabled person, especially since the rules made clear that medical documents were sufficient. The SSA hack was completely unsuited to the role of his job.

Consider the fact that the IRS gives out the wrong advice about 15% of the time to taxpayers, but still penalizes taxpayers for the IRS' own mistake.

IRS Advice Isn't Always Right - CBS News

Consider why so many Americans support Trump in the classified documents case. For all the noise, this boils down to a disagreement between clerks at the Archive and a former elected President of the United States, and a double-standard application of the law out of what looks more and more like pure political spite.

My point is that sooner or later, almost everyone will be abused by this monolith of a federal government, and God help anyone who offends the pride of someone in a government job.

Where Trump should do better, is to bring up abuses against other people by those same government hacks. Trump would also do well to offer concrete suggestions on reforming those unelected roles. To me at least, there are few government offices which would not be made better by tying job cuts to complaints by citizens.

FLBear5630 said:

---

Whiskey Pete said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

historian said:

---

All too often the bureaucrats cannot handle it, especially when they are not held accountable.

---

Bureaucracy is fine, if kept to its area of expertise. They are there for a reason. When you start having engineers, physicist, logistics experts worrying about other ****, forcing certain answers or worse changing standards for non-technical reasons you will have problems. So, in that context I agree. Let these people do their jobs, believe it or not many of them actually like their jobs. Most technical people are truly interested in it. The political bull**** is what is the problem.

---

This kind of thinking is what has gotten the nation into so much trouble. Bureaucrats relentlessly test the limits of their powers.

Bureaucrats have killed coal power, by defining carbon itself as a pollutant, which has launched of a bold new world of regulatory growth throughout the economy. No law was passed to accomplish any of that.

Bureaucrats have changed the definition of what is a boy and what is a girl, literally using Title IX, a law passed to ensure that girls have the same public investment as boys to derive the benefits of competitive sports, to force boys into girl's locker rooms, into girl's competitive events. It's a "jump the shark" moment.

Political bull**** is indeed a problem, but at least we can unelect the electeds. The bureaucrats we have no control over whatsoever.

---

No, they didn't kill coal. The elected officials telling these people that they needed to clean the air and reduce fossil fuels. That was not the people that are setting and maintaining the regs. They don't set the policy. That comes from above and they figure how to get there.

That is the people you want to put in charge. There are extremes in both directions too much regulation and too little. But, just like the CIA. The elected's/appointees tell you what area of the world to focus, you just do it in the most efficient means possible.

Now, just like anything else there are zealots. No doubt. They have an agenda, but that is a small percentage of the total number of people. Most of the zealots I have met in Fed transportation were appointees. At least in transportation, safety is #1. How to make modes operate safer and still function at a high level. I really have not seen the "Deep State" you guys discuss outside of the Appointees. I take that back, transit it like that. Those people are a nightmare to work with...

---

Unelected lifelong bureaucrats with the power to effectively write law, that aren't held accountable by the voter is not a good thing.

---

They don't pass law. The Civil Service implements laws.

You guys are blaming the wrong group. They only can do what they are told to do. There is no mechanism to do what you say and write law. All standards are approved and at the direction of who is elected. I fear what you are having an issue with is as Obama said: Elections have consequences. Since 2008 there have only been 4 years of GOP control and that was not effective as Congress didn't support a lot of what Trump pushed. So, most of the laws on the books are Democratic Party based.

The GOP really has not had a President in office since George HW Bush that understood and knew the value of the Federal Civil Service. A professional civil service is actually a positive, except here. It is one of the attributes that allows Nations to grow. My problem, is that I agree with President Bush.

"President George H.W. Bush, who in his first days in office in 1989 took care to celebrate the "values of a professional civil service whose highest principle is one of patriotism, whose foremost commitment is to excellence, whose experience and expertise is in itself a national resource to be used and respected."

Trump needs to embrace it, because it is necessary. But he won't

---

You've alluded that these rules and regulations from bureaucrats are fine because they're coming from "experts" in their chosen fields. Hell, you even provided the FAA as example. Now, you're saying they're just doing what they're told by politicians anyway? Make up your mind.

If you're so afraid of Trump "The Dictator" and you believe that the alphabet agencies only do what they're told, then it's astonishing that you're not calling for the exact same thing I've been saying, that the alphabet agencies NOT have the power they currently have with regard to issuing rules and regulations that are treated like law.

Wow bro, that would be giving Trump a bunch of power to circumvent Congress at will. Maybe Trump can just tell the Department of Education to issue a new rule banning Transgenders from attending public school or tell the EPA to issue a new rule banning the sale of electric vehicles or tell the FTC to issue a new regulation that requires all products sold in America to be manufactured in America.

historian said:

---

The bureaucrats create rules & regulations, which have the force of law, and then enforce them, often ruthlessly and with extreme bias. Some of these federal agencies have their own police forces with military gear, not just the ATF. The IRS is adding 87,000 enforcers. Apparently, those hiring them wanted them to be willing to use deadly force.

While it is true that Congress authorized this gross injustice & does nothing to stop it (another reason for congressional term limits), it's the bureaucrats who are often guilty of grotesque crimes & grossly illegal & unconstitutional behavior. Meanwhile, we the people lose our money to the bloated leviathan & lose our freedoms one by one.

No wonder the fascists want to disarm us: they are more tyrannical than the British were in 1776!

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It would be much worse without.

I have no issues with overreaches being dealt with up to and including prosecution. But, you have to do it.

In addition, you say that enforcement is bias and ruthless. Then the standard needs to change, that is on Congress. Hard to say someone is doing their job wrong when they are within the laws on the books. Change it.

You can't run a Nation of 365 million without some level of professional civil service. It will be Fed or State. There will be a leviathan, there is no getting around it. You are not cutting the Fed in half. You will actually pay the private sector more and have more risk of corruption.

FLBear5630 said:

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historian said:

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The bureaucrats create rules & regulations, which have the force of law, and then enforce them, often ruthlessly and with extreme bias. Some of these federal agencies have their own police forces with military gear, not just the ATF. The IRS is adding 87,000 enforcers. Apparently, those hiring them wanted them to be willing to use deadly force.

While it is true that Congress authorized this gross injustice & does nothing to stop it (another reason for congressional term limits), it's the bureaucrats who are often guilty of grotesque crimes & grossly illegal & unconstitutional behavior. Meanwhile, we the people lose our money to the bloated leviathan & lose our freedoms one by one.

No wonder the fascists want to disarm us: they are more tyrannical than the British were in 1776!

---

In addition, you say that enforcement is bias and ruthless. Then the standard needs to change, that is on Congress. Hard to say someone is doing their job wrong when they are within the laws on the books. Change it.

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It needs to change, that's why we've been arguing for it, the change. Trump is more likely try to change this than Biden or any other Democrat (or many Republicans who are in DC now). Our elected "leaders" are perfectly fine not having their vote tied to anything

Quote:

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You will actually pay the private sector more and have more risk of corruption.

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LOL... yeah, because the government, especially bureaucrats accountable to no voter is less corrupt than private business that's accountable to their stock holders and their customers/clients

Whiskey Pete said:

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FLBear5630 said:

---

historian said:

---

The bureaucrats create rules & regulations, which have the force of law, and then enforce them, often ruthlessly and with extreme bias. Some of these federal agencies have their own police forces with military gear, not just the ATF. The IRS is adding 87,000 enforcers. Apparently, those hiring them wanted them to be willing to use deadly force.

While it is true that Congress authorized this gross injustice & does nothing to stop it (another reason for congressional term limits), it's the bureaucrats who are often guilty of grotesque crimes & grossly illegal & unconstitutional behavior. Meanwhile, we the people lose our money to the bloated leviathan & lose our freedoms one by one.

No wonder the fascists want to disarm us: they are more tyrannical than the British were in 1776!

---

In addition, you say that enforcement is bias and ruthless. Then the standard needs to change, that is on Congress. Hard to say someone is doing their job wrong when they are within the laws on the books. Change it.

---

It needs to change, that's why we've been arguing for it, the change. Trump is more likely try to change this than Biden or any other Democrat (or many Republicans who are in DC now). Our elected "leaders" are perfectly fine not having their vote tied to anything

Quote:

---

You will actually pay the private sector more and have more risk of corruption.

---

LOL... yeah, because the government, especially bureaucrats accountable to no voter is less corrupt than private business that's accountable to their stock holders and their customers/clients

---

Not tied to anything? I am losing you here.

You may want to do a little research on how the Professional Civil Service came about and how Teddy Roosevelt (Conservative enough?) championed Civil Service reform away from what you describe. There is a reason that it developed like it did.

As for the Private Sector, what you describe IS the reason you can't have the Private Sector in charge of Government. They are beholden to the Stock Holder, not the public good. This is American National Government 101 stuff... What you describe is a nightmare of political spoils.

Pretty sure the federal government has changed a wee bit since Teddy R was POTUS.

Oldbear83 said:

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Pretty sure the federal government has changed a wee bit since Teddy R was POTUS.

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Concept is the same, some things never change. Private Sector will take care of themselves. Politicians will stack positions with cronies, if allowed. Way of the world. Corruption is corruption. Human nature has not changed. Trading one problem for another.

But, if it is a problem that works in your (not you specifically) favor, all of a sudden the system is great.

FLBear5630 said:

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Whiskey Pete said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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historian said:

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The bureaucrats create rules & regulations, which have the force of law, and then enforce them, often ruthlessly and with extreme bias. Some of these federal agencies have their own police forces with military gear, not just the ATF. The IRS is adding 87,000 enforcers. Apparently, those hiring them wanted them to be willing to use deadly force.

While it is true that Congress authorized this gross injustice & does nothing to stop it (another reason for congressional term limits), it's the bureaucrats who are often guilty of grotesque crimes & grossly illegal & unconstitutional behavior. Meanwhile, we the people lose our money to the bloated leviathan & lose our freedoms one by one.

No wonder the fascists want to disarm us: they are more tyrannical than the British were in 1776!

---

In addition, you say that enforcement is bias and ruthless. Then the standard needs to change, that is on Congress. Hard to say someone is doing their job wrong when they are within the laws on the books. Change it.

---

It needs to change, that's why we've been arguing for it, the change. Trump is more likely try to change this than Biden or any other Democrat (or many Republicans who are in DC now). Our elected "leaders" are perfectly fine not having their vote tied to anything

Quote:

---

You will actually pay the private sector more and have more risk of corruption.

---

LOL... yeah, because the government, especially bureaucrats accountable to no voter is less corrupt than private business that's accountable to their stock holders and their customers/clients

---

Not tied to anything? I am losing you here.

You may want to do a little research on how the Professional Civil Service came about and how Teddy Roosevelt (Conservative enough?) championed Civil Service reform away from what you describe. There is a reason that it developed like it did.

As for the Private Sector, what you describe IS the reason you can't have the Private Sector in charge of Government. They are beholden to the Stock Holder, not the public good. This is American National Government 101 stuff... What you describe is a nightmare of political spoils.

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Tied to public record. Too many politicians are more than willing to allow a bureaucrat in DC make decisions that they themselves should be deciding. Much easier to allow the CDC to try an unsurp property rights instead of they themselves voting for an eviction moratorium.

Let me spell this out for you... the alphabets should not have the power to issue regulations and rules that are treated like law. The alphabets should issue their findings/recommendations/guidelines/etc... to Congress and let our elected leaders (that's held accountable by the voter) vote on such rules/regs that are treated like a law and affect the everyday lives of Americans.

I"m pointing out that it's absurd for you to think that private businesses, which are actually held accountable by stock holders AND the public - you know, their clients/customers, that you think they're more likely to be corrupt than lifelong DC bureaucrats who are NOT held accountable by the public.

But hey, since you're for the power that the alphabets wield and you believe they take orders from politicians anyway, then you shouldn't have an issue with Trump (if he won) calling up the FTC and telling them to issue a new rule that bans any products sold America that are not made in America.

FLBear5630 said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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Pretty sure the federal government has changed a wee bit since Teddy R was POTUS.

---

Concept is the same, some things never change. Private Sector will take care of themselves. Politicians will stack positions with cronies, if allowed. Way of the world. Corruption is corruption. Human nature has not changed. Trading one problem for another.

But, if it is a problem that works in your (not you specifically) favor, all of a sudden the system is great.

---

The current system where unelected bureaucrats have the power to establish rules and regulations that are treated like law and affect the everyday lives of Americans while at the same time being free from being held accountable by the public - is NEVER great. Doesn't matter which side of the aisle you park your butt.

FLBear5630 said:

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Oldbear83 said:

---

Pretty sure the federal government has changed a wee bit since Teddy R was POTUS.

---

Concept is the same, some things never change. Private Sector will take care of themselves. Politicians will stack positions with cronies, if allowed. Way of the world. Corruption is corruption. Human nature has not changed. Trading one problem for another.

But, if it is a problem that works in your (not you specifically) favor, all of a sudden the system is great.

---

So how is it better to put that power in the hands of a mass of people who abuse their power with no accountability, whose history shows less accountability and effectiveness than private businesses.

No one trusts the USPS with any important documents for good reason.

Veterans abhor VA facilities and procedures, also for very good reason.

I already observed the IRS and SSA are notorious for shoddy practices at best.

There are more ways to hold private businesses accountable which are not available when dealing with a bureaucrat.

Washington and Adams would ***** slap the heads of the DOJ, Treasury Department and DOD, not to mention the fools running the Entitlement offices.

The reality is bureaucracies get way to big whether public or private, but the public sector lacks the profit motive than can keep private bureaucracies in check.

There are likely several departments that should close or be reduced.

I really like the idea of moving the physical locations across the country.

Whiskey Pete said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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Pretty sure the federal government has changed a wee bit since Teddy R was POTUS.

---

Concept is the same, some things never change. Private Sector will take care of themselves. Politicians will stack positions with cronies, if allowed. Way of the world. Corruption is corruption. Human nature has not changed. Trading one problem for another.

But, if it is a problem that works in your (not you specifically) favor, all of a sudden the system is great.

---

The current system where unelected bureaucrats have the power to establish rules and regulations that are treated like law and affect the everyday lives of Americans while at the same time being free from being held accountable by the public - is NEVER great. Doesn't matter which side of the aisle you park your butt.

---

Why do you think there are so many hearings, comments and public input on these things. There is a process, no one can just change life safety standards without a several year process. The Federal Register is full of Notice of Proposed Changes, it takes time. Many times, longer than an elected cycle. That is why you need these people.

I agree if someone breaks the law, prosecute. Fire them. Hold them accountable. But, forcing people to follow building regulations or water dumping or any other of a thousand rules that are in place for a reason, is not a problem. Be thankful you have that in 99% of America. Or, you end up with a Flint, MI water issue. Or a bridge collapse.

FLBear5630 said:

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Whiskey Pete said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Pretty sure the federal government has changed a wee bit since Teddy R was POTUS.

---

Concept is the same, some things never change. Private Sector will take care of themselves. Politicians will stack positions with cronies, if allowed. Way of the world. Corruption is corruption. Human nature has not changed. Trading one problem for another.

But, if it is a problem that works in your (not you specifically) favor, all of a sudden the system is great.

---

The current system where unelected bureaucrats have the power to establish rules and regulations that are treated like law and affect the everyday lives of Americans while at the same time being free from being held accountable by the public - is NEVER great. Doesn't matter which side of the aisle you park your butt.

---

Why do you think there are so many hearings, comments and public input on these things. There is a process, no one can just change life safety standards without a several year process. The Federal Register is full of Notice of Proposed Changes, it takes time. Many times, longer than an elected cycle. That is why you need these people.

I agree if someone breaks the law, prosecute. Fire them. Hold them accountable. But, forcing people to follow building regulations or water dumping or any other of a thousand rules that are in place for a reason, is not a problem. Be thankful you have that in 99% of America. Or, you end up with a Flint, MI water issue. Or a bridge collapse.

---

Listen guy, holy sh*t are you dense. I never said the alphabet wasn't needed. I said they should NEVER have the power to issue rules and regulations that are treated like law, especially regs that affect everyday life, that power should be in the hands of the people that we elect and send to DC to debate and vote on things.

I've said over and over the alphabets should only act in advisory role to Congress.

One more time, Bureaucrats that are NOT accountable to the public should not have the power to issue regulations or rules that are treated like law.

Too hard for you to understand?

"it takes time. Many times, longer than an elected cycle"

And this is part of the problem. Necessary changes either don't get made, or are made so incrementally and slowly that they fail.

And let's not forget that some changes are made very fast, such as new regulations limiting what Americans may buy with their money or do with their own resources.

A lot of those agencies need to be HQ'd somewhere other than D.C. That's also a huge part of the problem

Oldbear83 said:

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"it takes time. Many times, longer than an elected cycle"

And this is part of the problem. Necessary changes either don't get made, or are made so incrementally and slowly that they fail.

And let's not forget that some changes are made very fast, such as new regulations limiting what Americans may buy with their money or do with their own resources.

A lot of those agencies need to be HQ'd somewhere other than D.C. That's also a huge part of the problem

---

A totally simplistic view, especially as new technology is being integrated with legacy equipment. The impacts of these items are wide ranging and impact many industries. There is a reason for that, the answers are not black and white. There are always trade-offs.

I am not familiar with that. I am speaking about what I know and see, mostly transportation and tech related. A lot of what we have in place serves a purpose and is not stuff just anyone can do. I would imagine DOE is similar, there are very few in the Nation that can speak intelligently about nuclear power or even the electric grid. It is not popular on this site, but I don't want a real estate agent that wins an election determining safety issues. There is a reason that an individual Congressman can't operate on their own.

As for your other point, agree 100%. I have no issue with that.

"A totally simplistic view" - not nearly as bad as 'just trust the bureaucrats'.

FLBear5630 said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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"it takes time. Many times, longer than an elected cycle"

And this is part of the problem. Necessary changes either don't get made, or are made so incrementally and slowly that they fail.

And let's not forget that some changes are made very fast, such as new regulations limiting what Americans may buy with their money or do with their own resources.

A lot of those agencies need to be HQ'd somewhere other than D.C. That's also a huge part of the problem

---

A totally simplistic view, especially as new technology is being integrated with legacy equipment. The impacts of these items are wide ranging and impact many industries. There is a reason for that, the answers are not black and white. There are always trade-offs.

I am not familiar with that. I am speaking about what I know and see, mostly transportation and tech related. A lot of what we have in place serves a purpose and is not stuff just anyone can do. I would imagine DOE is similar, there are very few in the Nation that can speak intelligently about nuclear power or even the electric grid. It is not popular on this site, but I don't want a real estate agent that wins an election determining safety issues. There is a reason that an individual Congressman can't operate on their own.

As for your other point, agree 100%. I have no issue with that.

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Holy cow... you speak about your fear about Trump becoming a dictator, but yet you would trust a lifelong unelected bureaucrat with no accountability to the public to make decisions on behalf of the American people.

Wow, just wow. Oligarch much?

***Newsflash***
Congress doesn't operate based an individual Congressman.

Whiskey Pete said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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"it takes time. Many times, longer than an elected cycle"

And this is part of the problem. Necessary changes either don't get made, or are made so incrementally and slowly that they fail.

And let's not forget that some changes are made very fast, such as new regulations limiting what Americans may buy with their money or do with their own resources.

A lot of those agencies need to be HQ'd somewhere other than D.C. That's also a huge part of the problem

---

A totally simplistic view, especially as new technology is being integrated with legacy equipment. The impacts of these items are wide ranging and impact many industries. There is a reason for that, the answers are not black and white. There are always trade-offs.

I am not familiar with that. I am speaking about what I know and see, mostly transportation and tech related. A lot of what we have in place serves a purpose and is not stuff just anyone can do. I would imagine DOE is similar, there are very few in the Nation that can speak intelligently about nuclear power or even the electric grid. It is not popular on this site, but I don't want a real estate agent that wins an election determining safety issues. There is a reason that an individual Congressman can't operate on their own.

As for your other point, agree 100%. I have no issue with that.

---

Holy cow... you speak about your fear about Trump becoming a dictator, but yet you would trust a lifelong unelected bureaucrat with no accountability to the public to make decisions on behalf of the American people.

Wow, just wow. Oligarch much?

***Newsflash***
Congress doesn't operate based an individual Congressman.

---

You want elected officials, whose qualifications are nothing more than winning an election, determining if plane travel is safe? Determining how to run an electric grid? Or, whether or not traffic signals are reliable?

You do realize that most elected officials are attorneys. They have no idea how often planes should be maintained or how close they can fly to each other. Most could not tell you how a traffic signal controller works or even what it does. or anyone of literally thousands of decisions that impact safety and health. Yet, they should decide because they are accountable 4 years from now. This is a joke right.