2024

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boognish_bear
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Good example of tell your story or someone else will

boognish_bear
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boognish_bear
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4th and Inches
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boognish_bear said:


its not hers, hers will be much more radical..

They want you to think its hers
Adopt-a-Bear 2024

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#50 KAIAN ROBERTS-DAY ( DL )
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historian
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KaiBear said:

historian said:

Talk about conspiracy theories!

There is no evidence of such manipulation.


Of course there is.

Just one exampleā€¦ā€¦..

By refusing to give up possession of the fort to the newly sovereign stateā€¦..its dozens of cannons threatened all the shipping in the harbor.

The critically important port was effectively at risk of being indefinitely closed to all shipping.

And risk of such a closer was an intolerable economic threat to South Carolina and the entire region.

Lincoln knew this which is why he publicly announced his intention to te enforce the existing garrison of the fort.

That's a circular argument. The Confederacy was not a newly sovereign state. No other state had even recognized them & none in Europe ever did. Declaring themselves a new nation didn't make it a reality. They had to win a war to make it happen. The U.S. became a new nation with the Declaration of Independence but that only became official with victory a few years later. We were helped by recognition from & an alliance with France.

Lincoln did not surrender Fort Sumter because it was US sovereign territory and his constitutional duty to defend it. He also was obligated to the men under his command, led by Maj. Anderson.

Whatever threat Fort Sumter was to South Carolina and other southern states was solely because of their rebellion. They started the war and they made themselves the enemy of the U.S. It was entirely their actions that produced for them any threat. Had they not rebelled against the US, the fort would have been protecting them from outside threats.

What's more, most of the Confederate officers were guilty of treason, as defined by the constitution, from Robert E. Lee on down.

Lincoln announced his intention to protect the fort to reassure the public that he was going to do his job and to try to convince the south to back down from their reckless and criminal behavior. He succeeded with the former but not the latter. Again, all blame for these events rests on those who started the conflict, the Confederates.

Modern parallels are September 11, 2001 & October 7, 2023. In both cases the terrorists started the respective conflict with their barbaric attacks on innocents, although some tried to blame the victims in both examples. The Confederate attack on Fort Sumter was not barbaric but they still were responsible for the conflict that followed. My earlier Pearl Harbor analogy still applies.

My arguments are based upon historical facts and an understanding of the constitution, the "supreme law of the land."
Redbrickbear
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historian said:

KaiBear said:

historian said:

Talk about conspiracy theories!

There is no evidence of such manipulation.


Of course there is.

Just one exampleā€¦ā€¦..

By refusing to give up possession of the fort to the newly sovereign stateā€¦..its dozens of cannons threatened all the shipping in the harbor.

The critically important port was effectively at risk of being indefinitely closed to all shipping.

And risk of such a closer was an intolerable economic threat to South Carolina and the entire region.

Lincoln knew this which is why he publicly announced his intention to te enforce the existing garrison of the fort.

That's a circular argument. The Confederacy was not a newly sovereign state. No other state had even recognized them & none in Europe ever did. Declaring themselves a new nation didn't make it a reality. They had to win a war to make it happen. The U.S. became a new nation with the Declaration of Independence but that only became official with victory a few years later. We were helped by recognition & an alliance with France.


What's more, most of the Confederate officers were guilty of treason, as defined by the constitution, from Robert E. Lee on down.


1. At least you actually that the Southern States were engaged in the exact same movement for independence that they had attempted in 1776.

"the Southern states only claimed the right to go their own way their policy would be defensive; the North, which denied this right & was determined to keep them in the Union by force, had to take the offensive. A formidable task confronted the aggressors."-Winston Churchill

2. Unlike the British empire....secession is NOT illegal per the U.S. Constitution.

"With what pretense of fairness, it is said, can you Americans object to the secession of the Southern States when your nation was founded on secession from the British Empire?" ~ Cornhill Magazine (London) 1861.

3. Lincoln could have evacuated Ft. Sumter if he wanted to...and it seems like that was exactly what Seward was telling various Southern Congressmen and Senators that he was going to do.

Nothing in the Constitution demands the Commander in Chief hold any specific Fort....

4. If Robert E. Lee was could have been convicted of treason you can be sure the North would have tried...but they could not do it.

Because State secession is NOT treason per the U.S. Constitution.

"If you bring these (Confederate) leaders to trial it will condemn the North," Justice Chase had warned his former cabinet colleagues in July, "for by the Constitution secession is not rebellion." As for the rebel chieftain, the authorities would have done better not to apprehend him. "Mr. Lincoln wanted Jefferson Davis to escape, and he was right. His capture was a mistake. His trial will be a greater one. We cannot convict him of treason. Secession is settled. Let it stay settled."~ Chief Justice Salmon P. Chase (Burke Davis, "The Long Surrender", 1985,; Shelby Foote, "The Civil War," V3, p. 1035)
boognish_bear
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Interesting to hear Trump interviewed out of political mode

boognish_bear
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Looks like they can pretty much stop running the full field polls now

ATL Bear
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sombear said:

Redbrickbear said:

sombear said:

Redbrickbear said:

sombear said:

Redbrickbear said:

sombear said:

Redbrickbear said:

sombear said:

Redbrickbear said:

Osodecentx said:

Mothra said:

KaiBear said:

Such obsession with various polls is irrelevant.

Voter 'harvesting' in key precincts, the stupidity of much of our electorate, and the overwhelming Dem control of the national media will produce the same result as in 2020.

As the Republican hierarchy has learned nothing since 2020.
Add a bitter, re-tread 78-year-old who lost the last election as the R's candidate to the list. The Rs did themselves no favors when they once again hitched their horse to Trump. I suspect most any other R candidate at this point would be kicking Kamala's ass. As it stands, I suspect the Rs lose another close one.

I just pray that Trump is gone, and the country is still here in 2028.


Will Trump return the Republican Party when he is through with it?


I hope not

Going back to "import the world/invade the world/cut corporate tax rates" is a non-starters

That party would not even get 15% of the national voteā€¦
Plenty of Repubs have outperformed Trump electorally.

But more fundamentally to your argument:

- Trump cut corp taxes and regulations dramatically and ran on doing so.
- He talked a lot about "fair trade" but acted mostly as a free-trader. He actually did very little of what fair-traders wanted relative to tariffs, etc.
- I guess we didn't invade anyone, but he massively increased defense spending and kept us fighting in several regions, and he has since said he always planned on keeping a residual force and Bagram open in Afghanistan. In addition, he strongly supports Israel and Taiwan, and when push has come to shove, Ukraine.

1. But not where it matter in the actual GOP primary....some of you guys just won't face up to the fact that he won the primary and is now the candidate of choice for the party.

2. The last two Republicans before Trump lost the White House (Mitt and McCain) both of who for some "never-Trumpers" are the ideal type of Republican.

3. On issues of both war and trade Trump is as constrained as anyone by Congress....a Congress filled with Republicans (and Democrats) who love corporate tax cuts and wars in the foreign sandboxes of the world.

Trump at least tries to talk the talk...hopefully we might see him get the chance to do more in a 2nd term.

There are now more America 1st Republicans in Congress than there used to be so hopefully that well help.

But at the end of the day all we can do is hope...hope that DC can be changed and the Uniparty Consensus on War and Trade can be altered.
GOP governors all over the U.S. have far outperformed Trump.

Plenty of politicians talk. So what. Trump's policies are what they are - Pro-corporate; cut corp taxes and regulation.

Congress had nothing to do with limiting Trump.

1. Maybe so....but they did not win the GOP primary.

That is the whole point....they were and are NOT the choice of the Republican voters.

Its simply a hypothetical if a insert name GOP governor would do better in a general (Mitt certainly did not)

2. Those are long term Republican priorities as well. Trump as at least made talked about reorienting America toward protecting & on-shoring manufacturing jobs (the sable of the American middle class)

3. Please, on everything from vetoing the Military base naming bill, to trying to pull out of Afghanistan, to trying to build the border wall Congress interfered and stymied Trump at every turn.

Even when the GOP held both the House and the Senate they refused to pass a new immigration law (that Trump supported), Refused to fund a border wall (that Trump supported), and refused to order an Afghan/Syria pull out (that Trump advocated for)

https://apnews.com/united-states-congress-0fa86263454f489fbeeb3c61363a4515
[Senate breaks with Trump on Afghanistan, Syria withdrawal:

The Senate voted Monday to oppose the withdrawal of U.S. troops from Syria and Afghanistan, breaking with President Donald Trump as he calls for a military drawdown in those countries.]

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-46596272

[Democrats refuse funds for Trump's wall]

You're smarter than this. The Senate Afghan vote was ceremonial. Trump as CIC could have done it anytime, just as Biden did.

Come on now.....

The entire Senate leadership went over to the White House and told him point blank they would not support an Afghan war pull out.

And the Pentagon stymied him at every turn.

[When Trump was in office, Milley had no compunction about standing up to the president on Afghanistan. Axios reports that after the 2020 elections, unbeknown to his national security team, Trump had a presidential decision memorandum drawn up ordering all US forces be withdrawn from Afghanistan by Jan. 15, 2021. When news reached the Pentagon, Milley was "appalled" and swung into action. In the Oval Office, Milley, national security adviser Robert O'Brien and acting defense secretary Christopher C. Miller "all aligned against the plan." They "painted a vivid picture of Kabul falling to the Taliban if US forces withdrew precipitously in the final days of the Trump presidency" and invoked the specter of America's withdrawal from Saigon, warning "this would be Trump's legacy if he rushed to the exit." In the end, they persuaded Trump to leave a residual force of 2,500 troops in Afghanistan when he left office.]

Including not obeying his orders when Trump DID order the pull out! (something that is technically Constitutionally illegal to disobey the Commander in Chief of the armed forces)

https://www.militarytimes.com/news/pentagon-congress/2022/10/13/trump-ordered-rapid-withdrawal-from-afghanistan-after-election-loss/

[President Donald Trump ordered a rapid withdrawal of all U.S. troops from Afghanistan and Somalia in the wake of his 2020 election loss, but senior (Pentagon) officials never followed through on the plan, according to testimony released by the congressional January 6 committee on Thursday.]

Red herring. He negotiated the deal with the Taliban at the beginning of 2020. He could have withdrawn anytime. Instead, in what Trump thought was a big FU to the establishment, he drafted a silly, hastily and sloppily drafted order for immediate withdrawal RIGHT AFTER he was declared the loser of the election. He consulted with nobody. He did not pay even lip service to the chain in command. It was a wholly inadequate document prepared out of sheer spite that he knew would do nothing.



The facts are just something you really don't want to deal with.

The the machine in DC worked tirelessly to prevent the withdraw

And if when given a Constitutional order by their Commander in Chief they did not follow it.

This is all to you evidence that Trump is the problem.....not an entrench and corrupt system in DC

Wow
While I totally disagree, you keep ignoring the elephant in the room, which is that he never intended to leave Afghanistan.
Trump has myths built around him that people promote. It was Obama that drew down troops in Afghanistan from 100,000 to less than 10,000 by the end of his tenure, effectively ending the active War in Afghanistan. Ironically, in one of his first foreign policy moves, Trump INCREASED the number of troops by nearly 50% and expanded aerial assault operations as part of a fight against the Taliban resurgence. After his surge strategy failed, including a successful attack on Bagram AFB, he signed the deal with the Taliban late in his term in essence handing Afghanistan back to them, and setting up the infamous failed exit he authorized as he left office.
Redbrickbear
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historian said:

KaiBear said:

historian said:

Talk about conspiracy theories!

There is no evidence of such manipulation.


Of course there is.

Just one exampleā€¦ā€¦..

By refusing to give up possession of the fort to the newly sovereign stateā€¦..its dozens of cannons threatened all the shipping in the harbor.

The critically important port was effectively at risk of being indefinitely closed to all shipping.

And risk of such a closer was an intolerable economic threat to South Carolina and the entire region.

Lincoln knew this which is why he publicly announced his intention to te enforce the existing garrison of the fort.



Modern parallels are September 11, 2001 & October 7, 2023. In both cases the terrorists started the respective conflict with their barbaric attacks on innocents, although some tried to blame the victims in both examples. The Confederate attack on Fort Sumter was not barbaric but they still were responsible for the conflict that followed. My earlier Pearl Harbor analogy still applies.



Well if you leave out that one attack was by a group of Islamic Jihadist with no legitimacy and attacking the US without warning and attacking a specific civilian target that killed 3,000 people in a major civilian city.

While in the other case the State of South Carolina vote to leave, had petitioned to withdraw from a political Union (that it had entered into freely), negotiated with the US military for 4 months, sent many ignored petitions from Gov. Pickens and the South Carolina legislature to withdraw military forces from the Fort, and ended with a 1 day cannon duel that killed no one at the Fort.

Zero dead Americans vs 3,000 is a big difference....so is a surprise attack vs one given months of prior warning.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Fort_Sumter#:~:text=Beginning%20at%204%3A30%20a.m.,Major%20Anderson%20agreed%20to%20evacuate.
sombear
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ATL Bear said:

sombear said:

Redbrickbear said:

sombear said:

Redbrickbear said:

sombear said:

Redbrickbear said:

sombear said:

Redbrickbear said:

sombear said:

Redbrickbear said:

Osodecentx said:

Mothra said:

KaiBear said:

Such obsession with various polls is irrelevant.

Voter 'harvesting' in key precincts, the stupidity of much of our electorate, and the overwhelming Dem control of the national media will produce the same result as in 2020.

As the Republican hierarchy has learned nothing since 2020.
Add a bitter, re-tread 78-year-old who lost the last election as the R's candidate to the list. The Rs did themselves no favors when they once again hitched their horse to Trump. I suspect most any other R candidate at this point would be kicking Kamala's ass. As it stands, I suspect the Rs lose another close one.

I just pray that Trump is gone, and the country is still here in 2028.


Will Trump return the Republican Party when he is through with it?


I hope not

Going back to "import the world/invade the world/cut corporate tax rates" is a non-starters

That party would not even get 15% of the national voteā€¦
Plenty of Repubs have outperformed Trump electorally.

But more fundamentally to your argument:

- Trump cut corp taxes and regulations dramatically and ran on doing so.
- He talked a lot about "fair trade" but acted mostly as a free-trader. He actually did very little of what fair-traders wanted relative to tariffs, etc.
- I guess we didn't invade anyone, but he massively increased defense spending and kept us fighting in several regions, and he has since said he always planned on keeping a residual force and Bagram open in Afghanistan. In addition, he strongly supports Israel and Taiwan, and when push has come to shove, Ukraine.

1. But not where it matter in the actual GOP primary....some of you guys just won't face up to the fact that he won the primary and is now the candidate of choice for the party.

2. The last two Republicans before Trump lost the White House (Mitt and McCain) both of who for some "never-Trumpers" are the ideal type of Republican.

3. On issues of both war and trade Trump is as constrained as anyone by Congress....a Congress filled with Republicans (and Democrats) who love corporate tax cuts and wars in the foreign sandboxes of the world.

Trump at least tries to talk the talk...hopefully we might see him get the chance to do more in a 2nd term.

There are now more America 1st Republicans in Congress than there used to be so hopefully that well help.

But at the end of the day all we can do is hope...hope that DC can be changed and the Uniparty Consensus on War and Trade can be altered.
GOP governors all over the U.S. have far outperformed Trump.

Plenty of politicians talk. So what. Trump's policies are what they are - Pro-corporate; cut corp taxes and regulation.

Congress had nothing to do with limiting Trump.

1. Maybe so....but they did not win the GOP primary.

That is the whole point....they were and are NOT the choice of the Republican voters.

Its simply a hypothetical if a insert name GOP governor would do better in a general (Mitt certainly did not)

2. Those are long term Republican priorities as well. Trump as at least made talked about reorienting America toward protecting & on-shoring manufacturing jobs (the sable of the American middle class)

3. Please, on everything from vetoing the Military base naming bill, to trying to pull out of Afghanistan, to trying to build the border wall Congress interfered and stymied Trump at every turn.

Even when the GOP held both the House and the Senate they refused to pass a new immigration law (that Trump supported), Refused to fund a border wall (that Trump supported), and refused to order an Afghan/Syria pull out (that Trump advocated for)

https://apnews.com/united-states-congress-0fa86263454f489fbeeb3c61363a4515
[Senate breaks with Trump on Afghanistan, Syria withdrawal:

The Senate voted Monday to oppose the withdrawal of U.S. troops from Syria and Afghanistan, breaking with President Donald Trump as he calls for a military drawdown in those countries.]

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-46596272

[Democrats refuse funds for Trump's wall]

You're smarter than this. The Senate Afghan vote was ceremonial. Trump as CIC could have done it anytime, just as Biden did.

Come on now.....

The entire Senate leadership went over to the White House and told him point blank they would not support an Afghan war pull out.

And the Pentagon stymied him at every turn.

[When Trump was in office, Milley had no compunction about standing up to the president on Afghanistan. Axios reports that after the 2020 elections, unbeknown to his national security team, Trump had a presidential decision memorandum drawn up ordering all US forces be withdrawn from Afghanistan by Jan. 15, 2021. When news reached the Pentagon, Milley was "appalled" and swung into action. In the Oval Office, Milley, national security adviser Robert O'Brien and acting defense secretary Christopher C. Miller "all aligned against the plan." They "painted a vivid picture of Kabul falling to the Taliban if US forces withdrew precipitously in the final days of the Trump presidency" and invoked the specter of America's withdrawal from Saigon, warning "this would be Trump's legacy if he rushed to the exit." In the end, they persuaded Trump to leave a residual force of 2,500 troops in Afghanistan when he left office.]

Including not obeying his orders when Trump DID order the pull out! (something that is technically Constitutionally illegal to disobey the Commander in Chief of the armed forces)

https://www.militarytimes.com/news/pentagon-congress/2022/10/13/trump-ordered-rapid-withdrawal-from-afghanistan-after-election-loss/

[President Donald Trump ordered a rapid withdrawal of all U.S. troops from Afghanistan and Somalia in the wake of his 2020 election loss, but senior (Pentagon) officials never followed through on the plan, according to testimony released by the congressional January 6 committee on Thursday.]

Red herring. He negotiated the deal with the Taliban at the beginning of 2020. He could have withdrawn anytime. Instead, in what Trump thought was a big FU to the establishment, he drafted a silly, hastily and sloppily drafted order for immediate withdrawal RIGHT AFTER he was declared the loser of the election. He consulted with nobody. He did not pay even lip service to the chain in command. It was a wholly inadequate document prepared out of sheer spite that he knew would do nothing.



The facts are just something you really don't want to deal with.

The the machine in DC worked tirelessly to prevent the withdraw

And if when given a Constitutional order by their Commander in Chief they did not follow it.

This is all to you evidence that Trump is the problem.....not an entrench and corrupt system in DC

Wow
While I totally disagree, you keep ignoring the elephant in the room, which is that he never intended to leave Afghanistan.
Trump has myths built around him that people promote. It was Obama that drew down troops in Afghanistan from 100,000 to less than 10,000 by the end of his tenure, effectively ending the active War in Afghanistan. Ironically, in one of his first foreign policy moves, Trump INCREASED the number of troops by nearly 50% and expanded aerial assault operations as part of a fight against the Taliban resurgence. After his surge strategy failed, including a successful attack on Bagram AFB, he signed the deal with the Taliban late in his term in essence handing Afghanistan back to them, and setting up the infamous failed exit he authorized as he left office.
All true.

I've criticized Trump plenty, but have never criticized Trump supporters and won't.

But, it's been really strange. Most folks don't trust politicians and certainly don't believe what they say. Yet, we have arguably the most dishonest and immoral Presidential politician, and folks seem to just take him at his word and believe what he says.
historian
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Treason is illegal. It's even clearly defined in the constitution and there is no doubt that the Confederates were guilty: they made war on the U.S., a war they started. Making war on the U.S. is part of the constitutional definition.

Lee and the other Confederates were not tried for treason because Lincoln was gracious and practical: his plan for Reconstruction included broad amnesty. This was necessary under the circumstances because the nation wasn't going to heal with mass executions of thousands of traitors. Lincoln's goal from the beginning was to maintain the Union, the unity of the nation. He argued that secession was unconstitutional and he had a compelling case. I have no intention of rehashing that now but one only needs to read his first inaugural address.

Here is a link to the text:

https://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/lincoln1.asp
Redbrickbear
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historian said:

Treason is illegal. It's even clearly defined in the constitution and there is no doubt that the Confederates were guilty: they made war on the U.S., a war they started.

But it was not treason and secession is not illegal.

You really should read the U.S. Constitution some time...secession is no where forbidden in the document.

"To deny this right [of secession] would be inconsistent with the principle on which all of our political systems are founded."
- William Rawle

"The Constitution was to form a gov't for such States as should be willing to unite; it had no application beyond those who should voluntarily adopt it. Among the delegated powers there is none which interferes with the exercise of the right of secession by a State."

"Congress cannot declare war against a state or any number of states, by virtue of the constitution." Nor has the President any power to...declare a war of any sort. He is only authorized by law "to suppress insurrection against the government of a state."-Dunning

"Lincoln had long believed that Southern talk of secession was nothing but bluff. In 1856 he had stated in a speech in Galena, Illinois: "All this talk about the dissolution of the Union is humbug." He grossly underestimated secessionist sentiment and overestimated pro-Union strength in the upper South and border regions." Gutenberg's A Short Life of Abraham Lincoln, by John G. Nicolay

Redbrickbear
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historian said:

Treason is illegal.

Lee and the other Confederates were not tried for treason because Lincoln was gracious and practical:

Lincoln was dead bud....

And regardless they could not get a conviction....there were certainly interested in trying.

[until the Civil War settled matters, there was a great vagueness in the Constitution about the loyalty owed by citizens of states and the Federal Union, and so it could be argued that Lee was simply functioning within the latitude of that vagueness by following his Virginia citizenship, it would be extraordinarily difficult to persuade a civilian jury that he had knowingly committed treason. True: as Edmunds argued, "instead of being the child of Virginia and wedded to the institutions of his State, and sharing her destinies with a passionate enthusiasm, he was the child of the people; he was the ward of the nation."[url=https://athenaeumreview.org/essay/did-robert-e-lee-commit-treason/#_ftn40][40][/url] True again: no one seemed, in simple terms, more to conform to the Constitutional definition of treason against the United Stateslevying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort than Robert E. Lee. But treason, in Anglo-American jurisprudence, knows no accessories. "Where war has been levied," all who aid in its prosecution by performing any part in furtherance of the common object, however minute, or however remote from the scene of the action. In other words, everyone who is involved in treason is a principal, and that would have compelled the federal courts to conduct treason trials in wholesale, not to say politically repugnant, numbers reaching the millions. Even Wendell Phillips acknowledged, "We cannot hang men in regiments" or "cover the continent with gallows. We cannot sicken the nineteenth century with such a sight."]

"It is easy to dispose of the threatening attitude of the South by denouncing it as a rebellionas treason...The revolt of a whole people, covering a territory equal to half of Europe, is a revolution. You cannot dwarf the movement by stigmatizing it as treason."-Gov. Stockton (NJ)
historian
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Still, the Confederacy had no legal standing, no recognition, and no legitimate reason to attack. From a legal perspective, it was a criminal act. Yes, I know the same is true of those who signed the a Declaration of Independence. That's why Ben Franklin famously quipped afterwards, "We must all hang together or we will all hang separately."

It was the winning of the war that legitimized the act. It's one of those interesting quirks of history replayed over and over again. Successful rebellions are legitimate while failed rebellions results in people being executed. Think of the Texas Revolution vs Ireland's Easter Rebellion or any other historical example.
4th and Inches
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No bump so far.. actually looks like a dip

Adopt-a-Bear 2024

#90 COOPER LANZ ( DL )
CLASS Junior
HT/WT 6' 3", 288 lbs


#50 KAIAN ROBERTS-DAY ( DL )
CLASS Sophomore
HT/WT 6' 3", 273 lbs
historian
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Good point. Trump definitely is no Angel. However, many people support him because he has a record of success and on delivering on promises. Not many politicians can say that. The only modern example I can think of is Reagan, who was also one of the most popular in his day. For what it's worth, Reagan is the only president since Eisenhower to win two landslide victories. That says something about his popularity. Arguably, Reagan won 3 in that GHW Bush (#41) won by a sizable margin largely on Reagan's coattails. He then squandered it with, "Read my lipsā€¦"
Redbrickbear
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historian said:

Still, the Confederacy had no legal standing, no recognition, and no legitimate reason to attack. From a legal perspective, it was a criminal act.

It was the winning of the war that legitimized the act. It's one of those interesting quirks of history replayed over and over again. Successful rebellions are legitimate while failed rebellions results in people being executed.

1. The Confederacy did not attack Ft. Sumter

The Sovereign State of South Carolina did....using their legally constituted militia.

Now if you want to argue that South Carolina had no right...then fine....but South Carolina had declared its totally and complete independence.


2. You believe in "might makes right" fair enough...at least you are honest that it was not the Constitution that prevents State secession....its the mass application of military power by the Federal government and the killing of men that keeps it together.
historian
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Redbrickbear said:

historian said:

Treason is illegal. It's even clearly defined in the constitution and there is no doubt that the Confederates were guilty: they made war on the U.S., a war they started.

But it was not treason and secession is not illegal.

You really should read the U.S. Constitution some time...secession is no where forbidden in the document.

"To deny this right [of secession] would be inconsistent with the principle on which all of our political systems are founded."
- William Rawle

"The Constitution was to form a gov't for such States as should be willing to unite; it had no application beyond those who should voluntarily adopt it. Among the delegated powers there is none which interferes with the exercise of the right of secession by a State."

"Congress cannot declare war against a state or any number of states, by virtue of the constitution." Nor has the President any power to...declare a war of any sort. He is only authorized by law "to suppress insurrection against the government of a state."-Dunning

"Lincoln had long believed that Southern talk of secession was nothing but bluff. In 1856 he had stated in a speech in Galena, Illinois: "All this talk about the dissolution of the Union is humbug." He grossly underestimated secessionist sentiment and overestimated pro-Union strength in the upper South and border regions." Gutenberg's A Short Life of Abraham Lincoln, by John G. Nicolay



You are obsessed with the word "secession" which is not mentioned in the constitution. You keep ignoring my larger point, that treason is clearly defined and condemned and the Confederates are clearly guilty. Case closed. Verdict: guilty.

The U.S. never declared war against the confederacy because they were never a sovereign state. It doesn't matter what they thought: they were unable to make it a reality. Legally and constitutionally, it goes back to Lincoln doing his job as chief executive, enforcing the laws, and commander in chief, protecting Americans from a domestic threat. Again, these are facts not semantics or legal maneuvering.
historian
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Redbrickbear said:

historian said:

Still, the Confederacy had no legal standing, no recognition, and no legitimate reason to attack. From a legal perspective, it was a criminal act.

It was the winning of the war that legitimized the act. It's one of those interesting quirks of history replayed over and over again. Successful rebellions are legitimate while failed rebellions results in people being executed.

1. The Confederacy did not attack Ft. Sumter

The Sovereign State of South Carolina did....using their legally constituted militia.

Now if you want to argue that South Carolina had no right...then fine....but South Carolina had declared its totally and complete independence.


2. You believe in "might makes right" fair enough...at least you are honest that it was not the Constitution that prevents State secession....its the mass application of military power by the Federal government and the killing of men that keeps it together.


Once the other southern states jumped on board South Carolina's rebellion and they created their own army, consisting of representatives of the other states and commanded by Virginian Robert E. Lee, they were equally guilty of treason. The constitutional definition applies equally to everyone.

As for secession, again read Lincoln's arguments against it.
Redbrickbear
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historian said:

Redbrickbear said:

historian said:

Treason is illegal. It's even clearly defined in the constitution and there is no doubt that the Confederates were guilty: they made war on the U.S., a war they started.

But it was not treason and secession is not illegal.

You really should read the U.S. Constitution some time...secession is no where forbidden in the document.

"To deny this right [of secession] would be inconsistent with the principle on which all of our political systems are founded."
- William Rawle

"The Constitution was to form a gov't for such States as should be willing to unite; it had no application beyond those who should voluntarily adopt it. Among the delegated powers there is none which interferes with the exercise of the right of secession by a State."

"Congress cannot declare war against a state or any number of states, by virtue of the constitution." Nor has the President any power to...declare a war of any sort. He is only authorized by law "to suppress insurrection against the government of a state."-Dunning

"Lincoln had long believed that Southern talk of secession was nothing but bluff. In 1856 he had stated in a speech in Galena, Illinois: "All this talk about the dissolution of the Union is humbug." He grossly underestimated secessionist sentiment and overestimated pro-Union strength in the upper South and border regions." Gutenberg's A Short Life of Abraham Lincoln, by John G. Nicolay



You are obsessed with the word "secession" which is not mentioned in the constitution. You keep ignoring my larger point, that treason is clearly defined and condemned and the Confederates are clearly guilty. Case closed. Verdict: guilty.

Yea I am a little obsessed with the actual governing document of the United States...you know the document that actually lays out the rules of our Constitutional system and what is and is NOT a Federal government power.

Keeping States in the Union by force....is NOT a power granted to the Federal government.

"Lincoln's first striking innovation--where Jefferson like Locke, saw emergency power as a weapon outside of the Constitution, Lincoln suggested that crisis in some sense made it a Constitutional power."
-Schlesinger

"Thus, skillfully, Lincoln inverted the main issue of the war to suit his purpose. What the North was waging, of course, was a war to 'save' the Union by denying self-determination to the majority of Southern citizens."
-Prof Richard Hofstadter

"When a proposition was made to authorize the Federal Gov't to make war upon a State, if necessary to the enforcement of the Federal laws, the convention which framed the Constitution expressly denied such power." -Sen. Burnett

Adriacus Peratuun
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Voice of Reality:

The colonial citizens are patriotic revolutionaries because they defeated Britain.
The Southerners are traitors because they lost to the North.

It is that simple. Reasons, initiating incidents, etc. do not matter.
Only outcome determines how the victors and losers are categorized.
Redbrickbear
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historian said:

Redbrickbear said:

historian said:

Treason is illegal. It's even clearly defined in the constitution and there is no doubt that the Confederates were guilty: they made war on the U.S., a war they started.

But it was not treason and secession is not illegal.

You really should read the U.S. Constitution some time...secession is no where forbidden in the document.

"To deny this right [of secession] would be inconsistent with the principle on which all of our political systems are founded."
- William Rawle

"The Constitution was to form a gov't for such States as should be willing to unite; it had no application beyond those who should voluntarily adopt it. Among the delegated powers there is none which interferes with the exercise of the right of secession by a State."

"Congress cannot declare war against a state or any number of states, by virtue of the constitution." Nor has the President any power to...declare a war of any sort. He is only authorized by law "to suppress insurrection against the government of a state."-Dunning

"Lincoln had long believed that Southern talk of secession was nothing but bluff. In 1856 he had stated in a speech in Galena, Illinois: "All this talk about the dissolution of the Union is humbug." He grossly underestimated secessionist sentiment and overestimated pro-Union strength in the upper South and border regions." Gutenberg's A Short Life of Abraham Lincoln, by John G. Nicolay





The U.S. never declared war against the confederacy because they were never a sovereign state. It doesn't matter what they thought: they were unable to make it a reality. Legally and constitutionally, it goes back to Lincoln doing his job as chief executive, enforcing the laws, and commander in chief, protecting Americans from a domestic threat. Again, these are facts not semantics or legal maneuvering.


He was protecting Americans from their own duly elected State governments?

No...he was waging war to keep 11 States and their citizens inside of a political union they no longer wished to be a part of..

"And where is there to be found, in our history, or our constitutions, either State or national, any warrant for saying, that a President of the U.S. has been empowered by the Constitution to extend martial law over the whole country...He has no such authority."
-Curtis

"suppose SC to be altogether wrong in her opinion that this compact has been violated...You still have the same issue to meet...You must permit her to withdraw in peace, or you must declare war. That is, you must coerce the State itself, or you must permit her to depart in peace." Sen. Judah Benjamin
FLBear5630
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Redbrickbear said:

historian said:

Treason is illegal. It's even clearly defined in the constitution and there is no doubt that the Confederates were guilty: they made war on the U.S., a war they started.

But it was not treason and secession is not illegal.

You really should read the U.S. Constitution some time...secession is no where forbidden in the document.

"To deny this right [of secession] would be inconsistent with the principle on which all of our political systems are founded."
- William Rawle

"The Constitution was to form a gov't for such States as should be willing to unite; it had no application beyond those who should voluntarily adopt it. Among the delegated powers there is none which interferes with the exercise of the right of secession by a State."

"Congress cannot declare war against a state or any number of states, by virtue of the constitution." Nor has the President any power to...declare a war of any sort. He is only authorized by law "to suppress insurrection against the government of a state."-Dunning

"Lincoln had long believed that Southern talk of secession was nothing but bluff. In 1856 he had stated in a speech in Galena, Illinois: "All this talk about the dissolution of the Union is humbug." He grossly underestimated secessionist sentiment and overestimated pro-Union strength in the upper South and border regions." Gutenberg's A Short Life of Abraham Lincoln, by John G. Nicolay


You keep using quotes from people that were found to be wrong. Texas vs White settled this at the highest level, unilateral secession is illegal, period. You can quote every "Lost Cause" apologist you like, it does not change the ruling.

IF the States that wanted to secede brought it to Congress and attempted a vote and won. THEN you would be right, that is not illegal. It has to be in both party's best interest to break apart the Union. Can't just leave...


Redbrickbear
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Adriacus Peratuun said:

Voice of Reality:

The colonial citizens are patriotic revolutionaries because they defeated Britain.
The Southerners are traitors because they lost to the North.

It is that simple. Reasons, initiating incidents, etc. do not matter.
Only outcome determines how the victors and losers are categorized.

That is certainly historians view on here.

But again....

we have two threads for civil war talk...one on the free board and one on the paid site.

https://sicem365.com/forums/7/topics/138500/2
Redbrickbear
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FLBear5630 said:

Redbrickbear said:

historian said:

Treason is illegal. It's even clearly defined in the constitution and there is no doubt that the Confederates were guilty: they made war on the U.S., a war they started.

But it was not treason and secession is not illegal.

You really should read the U.S. Constitution some time...secession is no where forbidden in the document.

"To deny this right [of secession] would be inconsistent with the principle on which all of our political systems are founded."
- William Rawle

"The Constitution was to form a gov't for such States as should be willing to unite; it had no application beyond those who should voluntarily adopt it. Among the delegated powers there is none which interferes with the exercise of the right of secession by a State."

"Congress cannot declare war against a state or any number of states, by virtue of the constitution." Nor has the President any power to...declare a war of any sort. He is only authorized by law "to suppress insurrection against the government of a state."-Dunning

"Lincoln had long believed that Southern talk of secession was nothing but bluff. In 1856 he had stated in a speech in Galena, Illinois: "All this talk about the dissolution of the Union is humbug." He grossly underestimated secessionist sentiment and overestimated pro-Union strength in the upper South and border regions." Gutenberg's A Short Life of Abraham Lincoln, by John G. Nicolay


You keep using quotes from people that were found to be wrong. Texas vs White settled this at the highest level, unilateral secession is illegal, period. You can quote every "Lost Cause" apologist you like, it does not change the ruling.






You realize that most of those quotes are from Northern historians and Founding fathers right?

People can have opinions and are not "found to be wrong" by virtue of the fact that you don't like them.

Again lets quote a Northern Chief Justice of the Supreme Court....not a "lost causer" that you are scared of.

[The Chief Justice of the Supreme Court delivered opinion said. "If you bring these leaders to trial it will condemn the north, for by the Constitution, secession is not rebellion." Lincoln appointee Chief Justice Salmon P. Chase, July 1867 (The Civil War, Vol. 3, p. 765)

And White was a case from years after the war....in 1861 there was not Constitutional amendment that prevented Secession, no Congressional law that prevented Secession, and no Supreme Court case that prevented Secession.

Osodecentx
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FLBear5630 said:

Redbrickbear said:

historian said:

Treason is illegal. It's even clearly defined in the constitution and there is no doubt that the Confederates were guilty: they made war on the U.S., a war they started.

But it was not treason and secession is not illegal.

You really should read the U.S. Constitution some time...secession is no where forbidden in the document.

"To deny this right [of secession] would be inconsistent with the principle on which all of our political systems are founded."
- William Rawle

"The Constitution was to form a gov't for such States as should be willing to unite; it had no application beyond those who should voluntarily adopt it. Among the delegated powers there is none which interferes with the exercise of the right of secession by a State."

"Congress cannot declare war against a state or any number of states, by virtue of the constitution." Nor has the President any power to...declare a war of any sort. He is only authorized by law "to suppress insurrection against the government of a state."-Dunning

"Lincoln had long believed that Southern talk of secession was nothing but bluff. In 1856 he had stated in a speech in Galena, Illinois: "All this talk about the dissolution of the Union is humbug." He grossly underestimated secessionist sentiment and overestimated pro-Union strength in the upper South and border regions." Gutenberg's A Short Life of Abraham Lincoln, by John G. Nicolay


You keep using quotes from people that were found to be wrong. Texas vs White settled this at the highest level, unilateral secession is illegal, period. You can quote every "Lost Cause" apologist you like, it does not change the ruling.

IF the States that wanted to secede brought it to Congress and attempted a vote and won. THEN you would be right, that is not illegal. It has to be in both party's best interest to break apart the Union. Can't just leave...

Daniel Webster rose to Hayne's challenge. In a packed Senate Chamber, Webster used his organ-like voice to great effect as he began a two-day speech known as his Second Reply to Hayne. In response to Hayne's argument that the nation was simply an association of sovereign states, from which individual states could withdraw at will, Webster thundered that it was instead a "popular government, erected by the people; those who administer it are responsible to the people; and itself capable of being amended and modified, just as the people may choose it should be."
https://www.senate.gov/artandhistory/history/minute/The_Most_Famous_Senate_Speech.htm
KaiBear
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J.R. said:

FLBear5630 said:

Redbrickbear said:

whiterock said:

Redbrickbear said:

sombear said:

Redbrickbear said:

sombear said:

Redbrickbear said:

sombear said:

Redbrickbear said:

Osodecentx said:

Mothra said:

KaiBear said:

Such obsession with various polls is irrelevant.

Voter 'harvesting' in key precincts, the stupidity of much of our electorate, and the overwhelming Dem control of the national media will produce the same result as in 2020.

As the Republican hierarchy has learned nothing since 2020.
Add a bitter, re-tread 78-year-old who lost the last election as the R's candidate to the list. The Rs did themselves no favors when they once again hitched their horse to Trump. I suspect most any other R candidate at this point would be kicking Kamala's ass. As it stands, I suspect the Rs lose another close one.

I just pray that Trump is gone, and the country is still here in 2028.


Will Trump return the Republican Party when he is through with it?


I hope not

Going back to "import the world/invade the world/cut corporate tax rates" is a non-starters

That party would not even get 15% of the national voteā€¦
Plenty of Repubs have outperformed Trump electorally.

But more fundamentally to your argument:

- Trump cut corp taxes and regulations dramatically and ran on doing so.
- He talked a lot about "fair trade" but acted mostly as a free-trader. He actually did very little of what fair-traders wanted relative to tariffs, etc.
- I guess we didn't invade anyone, but he massively increased defense spending and kept us fighting in several regions, and he has since said he always planned on keeping a residual force and Bagram open in Afghanistan. In addition, he strongly supports Israel and Taiwan, and when push has come to shove, Ukraine.

1. But not where it matter in the actual GOP primary....some of you guys just won't face up to the fact that he won the primary and is now the candidate of choice for the party.

2. The last two Republicans before Trump lost the White House (Mitt and McCain) both of who for some "never-Trumpers" are the ideal type of Republican.

3. On issues of both war and trade Trump is as constrained as anyone by Congress....a Congress filled with Republicans (and Democrats) who love corporate tax cuts and wars in the foreign sandboxes of the world.

Trump at least tries to talk the talk...hopefully we might see him get the chance to do more in a 2nd term.

There are now more America 1st Republicans in Congress than there used to be so hopefully that well help.

But at the end of the day all we can do is hope...hope that DC can be changed and the Uniparty Consensus on War and Trade can be altered.
GOP governors all over the U.S. have far outperformed Trump.

Plenty of politicians talk. So what. Trump's policies are what they are - Pro-corporate; cut corp taxes and regulation.

Congress had nothing to do with limiting Trump.

1. Maybe so....but they did not win the GOP primary.

That is the whole point....they were and are NOT the choice of the Republican voters.

Its simply a hypothetical if a insert name GOP governor would do better in a general (Mitt certainly did not)

2. Those are long term Republican priorities as well. Trump as at least made talked about reorienting America toward protecting & on-shoring manufacturing jobs (the sable of the American middle class)

3. Please, on everything from vetoing the Military base naming bill, to trying to pull out of Afghanistan, to trying to build the border wall Congress interfered and stymied Trump at every turn.

Even when the GOP held both the House and the Senate they refused to pass a new immigration law (that Trump supported), Refused to fund a border wall (that Trump supported), and refused to order an Afghan/Syria pull out (that Trump advocated for)

https://apnews.com/united-states-congress-0fa86263454f489fbeeb3c61363a4515
[Senate breaks with Trump on Afghanistan, Syria withdrawal:

The Senate voted Monday to oppose the withdrawal of U.S. troops from Syria and Afghanistan, breaking with President Donald Trump as he calls for a military drawdown in those countries.]

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-46596272

[Democrats refuse funds for Trump's wall]



And your immigration article is from 2018. Trump had two years. And he basically repaired some wall and added some minor extensions. And, most importantly, offered amnesty and the same overall deal that virtually every other Republican had long supported (and that he criticized in the primary).



Buddy, he tried to get funding from Congress....they refused to act (but they did authorize billions for Israel and wars in the 3rd world)

He went around them and tried to use discretionary funding to build the Wall.

They sued him to stop it....and the Federal courts sided with the Regime to prevent the border wall from being built.

What else did you want him to do? Declare martial law and use the army to throw the bums out of Congress and install some actual Patriots that would build the wall?

I imagine if he did that you would be screaming about how it was un-Constitutional

[SAN FRANCISCO The Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals last night ruled that President Trump's use of emergency powers to divert $3.6 billion in military construction funds for the border wall is unlawful. The ruling came in a lawsuit, Sierra Club v. Trump, filed by the American Civil Liberties Union on behalf of the Sierra Club and Southern Border Communities Coalition challenging President Trump's use of emergency powers to build a border wall using funds Congress explicitly denied.]

https://www.aclu.org/press-releases/appeals-court-rules-trumps-border-wall-illegal-blocks-further-construction


The strongest critique of Trump's effort on the border wall is that it took him +2yrs to figure out how to do it with existing authorizations & funds.

I don't fault a businessman from the outside for not knowing that backdoor existed when he walked into the office. I can criticize his staff for taking so long to find it.

I also do not understand how anyone interested in stopping illegal immigration could find anyone in their lifetime who has done more to stop it. Not one politician of either party ever spent the kind of political capital Trump did on the issue. Not one politician of either party ever accomplished anything remotely close to what he did. They all spent their time & money facilitating/regulating the flow. Not. One. was interested enough in stopping it, for good, when all of them had the opportunity to do so. The DOD pathway he used has been there for a long, long time.



Bingo....

If people want to attack Trump and his Presidency then go ahead.

But the idea that he did not try and stop mass immigration from the 3rd world is ludicrous.

He spend money, political capital, and fought for it all 4 years he was in office against the entire weight of the DC political class who wants the never ending spigot of mass immigration to continue
I actually thought he did a good job finding funding for the wall. He got creative, but there was definitely a nexxus between Authorization and use. We need more problem solving like that.
did that check from Mexico clear yet. He's full of **** and anyone who believes anything out of his mouth is just foolish. I have never in my life seen a more habitual liar that fat boy. How and why do some of you boys support a liar, ***** chaser, convicted felon and a sexual abuser? Ser/ious question. Please don't give me...I like his policies or he's better than the other choice. please tell me why


I like you big guy but this is one horse you have beaten enough.

As you have said the same rant for YEARS.

But by your own admission(s)


YOU VOTED FOR TRUMP IN 2016 AND 2020.


And you posted the same rants back then.



Time for some new material my friend .
Redbrickbear
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Osodecentx said:

FLBear5630 said:

Redbrickbear said:

historian said:

Treason is illegal. It's even clearly defined in the constitution and there is no doubt that the Confederates were guilty: they made war on the U.S., a war they started.

But it was not treason and secession is not illegal.

You really should read the U.S. Constitution some time...secession is no where forbidden in the document.

"To deny this right [of secession] would be inconsistent with the principle on which all of our political systems are founded."
- William Rawle

"The Constitution was to form a gov't for such States as should be willing to unite; it had no application beyond those who should voluntarily adopt it. Among the delegated powers there is none which interferes with the exercise of the right of secession by a State."

"Congress cannot declare war against a state or any number of states, by virtue of the constitution." Nor has the President any power to...declare a war of any sort. He is only authorized by law "to suppress insurrection against the government of a state."-Dunning

"Lincoln had long believed that Southern talk of secession was nothing but bluff. In 1856 he had stated in a speech in Galena, Illinois: "All this talk about the dissolution of the Union is humbug." He grossly underestimated secessionist sentiment and overestimated pro-Union strength in the upper South and border regions." Gutenberg's A Short Life of Abraham Lincoln, by John G. Nicolay


You keep using quotes from people that were found to be wrong. Texas vs White settled this at the highest level, unilateral secession is illegal, period. You can quote every "Lost Cause" apologist you like, it does not change the ruling.

IF the States that wanted to secede brought it to Congress and attempted a vote and won. THEN you would be right, that is not illegal. It has to be in both party's best interest to break apart the Union. Can't just leave...

Daniel Webster rose to Hayne's challenge. In a packed Senate Chamber, Webster used his organ-like voice to great effect as he began a two-day speech known as his Second Reply to Hayne. In response to Hayne's argument that the nation was simply an association of sovereign states, from which individual states could withdraw at will, Webster thundered that it was instead a "popular government, erected by the people; those who administer it are responsible to the people; and itself capable of being amended and modified, just as the people may choose it should be."
https://www.senate.gov/artandhistory/history/minute/The_Most_Famous_Senate_Speech.htm


Including being responsible to the peoples will to dissociate from it and form new political associations?

(I guess I am just speaking to myself about how we have a thread for this kind of discussion
https://sicem365.com/forums/7/topics/138500/2)

[A coerced Union, one in which states were forcibly restrained from secession, would change the nature of government from "a voluntary one, in which the people are sovereigns, to a despotism where one part of the people are slaves"

"[Our situation] illustrates the American idea that governments rest on the consent of the governed, and that is there is the right of the people to alter or abolish them whenever they become destructive to the ends for which they are established." Also, planting a seed for the legitimacy of voluntary government, he said: "A section settled by violence, or in disregard of the law, must remain unsettled forever."
boognish_bear
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Redbrickbear
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Osodecentx said:

FLBear5630 said:

Redbrickbear said:

historian said:

Treason is illegal. It's even clearly defined in the constitution and there is no doubt that the Confederates were guilty: they made war on the U.S., a war they started.

But it was not treason and secession is not illegal.

You really should read the U.S. Constitution some time...secession is no where forbidden in the document.

"To deny this right [of secession] would be inconsistent with the principle on which all of our political systems are founded."
- William Rawle

"The Constitution was to form a gov't for such States as should be willing to unite; it had no application beyond those who should voluntarily adopt it. Among the delegated powers there is none which interferes with the exercise of the right of secession by a State."

"Congress cannot declare war against a state or any number of states, by virtue of the constitution." Nor has the President any power to...declare a war of any sort. He is only authorized by law "to suppress insurrection against the government of a state."-Dunning

"Lincoln had long believed that Southern talk of secession was nothing but bluff. In 1856 he had stated in a speech in Galena, Illinois: "All this talk about the dissolution of the Union is humbug." He grossly underestimated secessionist sentiment and overestimated pro-Union strength in the upper South and border regions." Gutenberg's A Short Life of Abraham Lincoln, by John G. Nicolay


You keep using quotes from people that were found to be wrong. Texas vs White settled this at the highest level, unilateral secession is illegal, period. You can quote every "Lost Cause" apologist you like, it does not change the ruling.

IF the States that wanted to secede brought it to Congress and attempted a vote and won. THEN you would be right, that is not illegal. It has to be in both party's best interest to break apart the Union. Can't just leave...

Daniel Webster rose to Hayne's challenge. In a packed Senate Chamber, Webster used his organ-like voice to great effect as he began a two-day speech known as his Second Reply to Hayne. In response to Hayne's argument that the nation was simply an association of sovereign states, from which individual states could withdraw at will, Webster thundered that it was instead a "popular government, erected by the people; those who administer it are responsible to the people; and itself capable of being amended and modified, just as the people may choose it should be."
https://www.senate.gov/artandhistory/history/minute/The_Most_Famous_Senate_Speech.htm



"The national idea never supplanted in the South the original theory of the Constitution. Southern opinion had stood with Calhoun all along in regarding the Constitution as an instrument of confederation, not of national consolidation."-Woodrow Wilson 1893

"The bright fame of devotion to the Union, kindled in the North by the words and acts of men like Webster & Gay, had so little penetrated the South that hardly anyone there expected the North to fight for the Union, & everyone felt cheated when it did"
-Morison

"the South's sons were among those that drafted the Constitution...Yet as the early of the country soon demonstrated, that Union was just a Union of States, and not a nation in any organic sense."-Prof Carl Degler (Stanford Historian, Pulitzer Prize Winner)
ATL Bear
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Adriacus Peratuun said:

Voice of Reality:

The colonial citizens are patriotic revolutionaries because they defeated Britain.
The Southerners are traitors because they lost to the North.

It is that simple. Reasons, initiating incidents, etc. do not matter.
Only outcome determines how the victors and losers are categorized.
The Khmer Rouge were patriots fighting for their cause against imperialists. The Bolsheviks were patriotic Russians breaking the grip of monarchy.

Don't think it's that simple. Cause and purpose does matter.
Redbrickbear
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ATL Bear said:

Adriacus Peratuun said:

Voice of Reality:

The colonial citizens are patriotic revolutionaries because they defeated Britain.
The Southerners are traitors because they lost to the North.

It is that simple. Reasons, initiating incidents, etc. do not matter.
Only outcome determines how the victors and losers are categorized.
The Khmer Rouge were patriots fighting for their cause against imperialists. The Bolsheviks were patriotic Russians breaking the grip of monarchy.

Don't think it's that simple. Cause and purpose does matter.

Well we know that was not not true...

They always held themselves out a the revolutionary vanguard of the coming international communist world revolution...not as Russian patriots.


[The Bolsheviks were a faction of the Russian Social-Democratic Workers' Party that originated in 1903. By 1907, 78.3% of the Bolsheviks were Russian, while 10% were Jewish. However, the revolutionary elite was made up of nearly two-thirds ethnic minorities, including Jews, Latvians, Ukrainians, Georgians, Armenians, and Poles. Ethnicity was closely linked to class in the Bolsheviks' social composition, suggesting that both were important factors in their political radicalism]

https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/10.1086/592862#:~:text=It%20takes%20as%20its%20point,thirds%20of%20Russia's%20revolutionary%20elite.

[Lenin was consistently opposed to what he labeled "Great Russian chauvinism," even accusing non-Russian comrades like Stalin and Orjonikidze of such attitudes]
Jack Bauer
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I was told he was trolling but this could be real and not shock me...

Adriacus Peratuun
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ATL Bear said:

Adriacus Peratuun said:

Voice of Reality:

The colonial citizens are patriotic revolutionaries because they defeated Britain.
The Southerners are traitors because they lost to the North.

It is that simple. Reasons, initiating incidents, etc. do not matter.
Only outcome determines how the victors and losers are categorized.
The Khmer Rouge were patriots fighting for their cause against imperialists. The Bolsheviks were patriotic Russians breaking the grip of monarchy.

Don't think it's that simple. Cause and purpose does matter.
The Khmer Rouge were "patriots" until the Vietnamese destroyed them.
It is "that simple". Winners dictate categorization.
When they were winners they dictated status. When they lost they didn't.

The Bolsheviks were patriots for decades until the economic pressure of the West caused the Soviet state to implode. As they left power they stopped being patriots.
When they were winners they dictated status. As subsequent losers they didn't.

Your examples do not support but rather undermine your point.

And it works both ways. Iran's democracy advocates were patriots for a few months until Khomeini and the Islamic fundamentalists destroyed them. Russian democracy advocates were patriots until Putin, the other Former KGB agents, and the sympathetic oligarchs destroyed them.

The French Revolutionā€¦..the Nazisā€¦..,Peronistasā€¦ā€¦the list goes on and on. Everyone is a patriot until they lose power. They then join the ever growing list of state enemies.
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