Happy Memorial Day! Thank a veteran for his or her service

xfrodobagginsx said:

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Happy Memorial Day! Thank a veteran for his or her service

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Just a reminder, Veterans Day is to celebrate veterans.

Memorial Day is when we remember our fallen .

Certainly you can thank a veteran (and should), but I hope you took some time to today to remember those who gave the last full measure.

I probably communicate pretty well, although I admit I choose to not always respond to your questions due to your tone and your authoritative attitude.

As for Mary and what anyone perceives as her role, I am not interested in getting involved in that particular non-salvation issue. Neither am I going to attempt to approach someone who does in a manner and tone like yours that increases the likelihood that they want nothing more of me or "Christians" like the ones Paul warns us about.
My personal belief is that based on my interpretation of the Bible that Jesus Christ is my intercession, not Mary and not some priest. I believe that once a person is truly saved then they are not the same person as they are reborn. They should use their gifts to edify the church. If they live a life where their actions reflect their faith then I am of the belief that they have a good shot at heaven. However, if they backslide and their heart and actions are oriented towards the way of the world then their actions will result in them going to hell.
I am willing to discuss my religious beliefs with another person who believes a bit differently, but not in the manner you enjoy.

BUDOS said:

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I probably communicate pretty well, although I admit I choose to not always respond to your questions due to your tone and your authoritative attitude.

As for Mary and what anyone perceives as her role, I am not interested in getting involved in that particular non-salvation issue. Neither am I going to attempt to approach someone who does in a manner and tone like yours that increases the likelihood that they want nothing more of me or "Christians" like the ones Paul warns us about.
My personal belief is that based on my interpretation of the Bible that Jesus Christ is my intercession, not Mary and not some priest. I believe that once a person is truly saved then they are not the same person as they are reborn. They should use their gifts to edify the church. If they live a life where their actions reflect their faith then I am of the belief that they have a good shot at heaven. However, if they backslide and their heart and actions are oriented towards the way of the world then their actions will result in them going to hell.
I am willing to discuss my religious beliefs with another person who believes a bit differently, but not in the manner you enjoy.

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What a very convenient way to not have to address someone's points or answer his questions because you have no argument - cast aspersions about his "tone". It's textbook ad hominem to avoid the issue. No one who is intelligent is buying it.

If you truly believe that the Mary issue is non-salvivic, then you have no discernment at all. None. If the deification of Mary influencing people to go to Mary for securing one's salvation instead of Jesus does not seem a salvivic issue, then I don't know what is. It's crazy (and pretty telling) how you guys are too cowardly to call it out.

What "manner" am I approaching the issue?? Calling out obvious idolatry is something we're not supposed to do, so we're not like "those Christians"? What does this even mean? Your refusing to call it idolatry tells a LOT.

People who backslide and remain in that state unrepentantly were never believers to begin with. Jesus promised that no one who is given to him shall be taken from his hand (John 10:28-29). The Holy Spirit keeps true believers, and even if they backslide, given the opportunity they will repent.

Quote:

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"You kiss, bow to, and pray to statues and pictures of Mary. You sing hymns to her in church. You pray to her in church. You hold multiple festivals for her throughout the year for her. In your prayers, you mention her name more than you do God's. And you LOVE and ADORE prayers that call Mary "sovereign", "peacemaker between sinners and God", "our hope and refuge", "ruler of my house", "god of this world", "Mediatrix", and you "place your salvation in Mary's hands".

Is this idolatry?"

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Yes. It is idolatry.

^^^Do you guys see how easy that is? You're not hurting anyone to tell the truth. In fact, you're hurting them by not telling the truth.

BUDOS said:

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I probably communicate pretty well, although I admit I choose to not always respond to your questions due to your tone and your authoritative attitude.

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So do you think that it's communicating well the biblical message on salvation when you say that someone who has faith in Jesus makes him only a "candidate" for salvation?

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Coke Bear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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YOU SAID it was a mortal sin.

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Seriously, try to relax your guard for just one moment and TRY to understand what the Church says.

Not having God on our hearts 24/7 is NOT a moral sin. It doesn't meet the conditions that the Church lays out for so. But you said it was - were you wrong?

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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The bible never teaches this. In fact, it teaches that once we believe, we have a seal and guarantee of our salvation in the Holy Spirit. It also teaches that a believer can KNOW they are saved. It can't say this, if a believer can sin, and then NOT be saved.

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This false. I'm demonstrated several passages that state that we can reject or lose our salvation. And I've shown why your interpretation is false. It contradicts clear teaching.

Even with the assurance of the Holy Spirit, we have free will. We can reject God, thereby, losing our salvation. Jesus said that all that he has been given, NONE will be taken from him. Paul agrees with this, saying the Holy Spirit is a SEAL and GUARANTEE for those who truly believe. The Holy Spirit keeps true believers from falling away.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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This is why Paul and other discuss running the race and enduring to the end. In their faith.

Matthew also says in 10:22 - he who perseveres to the end, will be saved. Perseveres in their faith.

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Are you saying that if one loses their faith, they they are no longer saved? Yes, IF. But Scripture teaches that true believers will not. Notice that EVEN IF we can lose our salvation, it would only be based on faith, not works.

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I said breaking the first commandment is a sin. What you described is not breaking the first commandment. "You shall have no other gods before me."

All that you have shown is that you are locked into false paradigms that won't allow you to look at scripture as a whole. You are taking a handful of passages and have created an entire theology based on them.

Scripture is clear that one can lose salvations. When you don't agree with the passages, you create a misinterpretation about them to twist to your view.

Why are you so locked into a OSAS theology that wasn't invented until the 16th century? It was taught nowhere until Calvin made it up.

The Holy Spirit is telling me and the Church was it says about these passages. Please tell me why I should listen to your interpretation about them.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Coke Bear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Again, this verse has to do with the people on earth AFTER the Church age. You are not rightly dividing the word.

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What does this mean?

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We've already discussed this. The sheep and goats judgement is NOT a judgement on believers. Believers are the "these brothers of mine" Jesus referred to.

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We must have different versions of the bible. Mine says:

"All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats."

The KJV even says, "And before him shall be gathered all nations."

Yours must say believers. To me (and the Church) "all the nations" is all humanity. This passage is clearly discussing the Final Judgement.

I am curious if other protestants view this as just "believers" or all of humanity.

The "these brothers of mine" in verse 40 appear to those who the "sheep" did works for, not those being judged. I would appreciate another protestant providing their view of this as well.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Yes, IF. But Scripture teaches that true believers will not. Notice that EVEN IF we can lose our salvation, it would only be based on faith, not works.

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I'm confused. Are you saying now that OSAS is false and you can lose your faith and salvation?


How can one know if they are a TRUE believer? How do you draw a distinction? You stated that faith is Hebrews 11:1 -

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

If I understand your position correctly, Jim Baker, who claims that he never stopped loving Jesus - who never lost his faith, never lost his salvation, even for a moment, when he was defrauding and committing adultery?

Coke Bear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Coke Bear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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YOU SAID it was a mortal sin.

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Seriously, try to relax your guard for just one moment and TRY to understand what the Church says.

Not having God on our hearts 24/7 is NOT a moral sin. It doesn't meet the conditions that the Church lays out for so. But you said it was - were you wrong?

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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The bible never teaches this. In fact, it teaches that once we believe, we have a seal and guarantee of our salvation in the Holy Spirit. It also teaches that a believer can KNOW they are saved. It can't say this, if a believer can sin, and then NOT be saved.

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This false. I'm demonstrated several passages that state that we can reject or lose our salvation. And I've shown why your interpretation is false. It contradicts clear teaching.

Even with the assurance of the Holy Spirit, we have free will. We can reject God, thereby, losing our salvation. Jesus said that all that he has been given, NONE will be taken from him. Paul agrees with this, saying the Holy Spirit is a SEAL and GUARANTEE for those who truly believe. The Holy Spirit keeps true believers from falling away.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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This is why Paul and other discuss running the race and enduring to the end. In their faith.

Matthew also says in 10:22 - he who perseveres to the end, will be saved. Perseveres in their faith.

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Are you saying that if one loses their faith, they they are no longer saved? Yes, IF. But Scripture teaches that true believers will not. Notice that EVEN IF we can lose our salvation, it would only be based on faith, not works.

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I said breaking the first commandment is a sin. What you described is not breaking the first commandment. "You shall have no other gods before me."

All that you have shown is that you are locked into false paradigms that won't allow you to look at scripture as a whole. You are taking a handful of passages and have created an entire theology based on them.

Scripture is clear that one can lose salvations. When you don't agree with the passages, you create a misinterpretation about them to twist to your view.

Why are you so locked into a OSAS theology that wasn't invented until the 16th century? It was taught nowhere until Calvin made it up.

The Holy Spirit is telling me and the Church was it says about these passages. Please tell me why I should listen to your interpretation about them.

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No, I said the first and greatest commandment.

You're the one having to dance around "SEAL" and ":GUARANTEE", and "not one will be taken from my hand".

OSAS was taught by Jesus and Paul.

If it's the same spirit that's telling you it's not idolatry of Mary, then it isn't the Holy Spirit, that's for sure.

Interesting point.
Additionally, If one is a "true believer" but they backslide, is it because of their actions/works? Was Baker ever a true believer, or was he always one? Or was he a fraud?
How many answers are there to such questions? Who decides which answer(s) is/are correct? Have you ever wondered about the fact that despite Christ telling us about how we should live and work and believe, and that we have one set of scriptures to go by, that we have so many different Christian denominations interpreting His Word in so many ways? As I do at times, Some seem to get caught up in the weeds and still others claim that their way is the only way, despite that Christ tells us what the true way is.

I can often accept being corrected, and at times thank the person for doing so. Matter of fact I have done the same. My experience has been that if the person approached me in a mature manner and one where they asked me why I thought I was right and then explained where I was wrong, then it often became an opportunity to further improve a relationship. When I became a leader I learned how effective this approach is. Have you had the same experience?

I know when someone claims that I am wrong and they do so in an aggressive manner and tone, it makes it a lot more difficult to focus on what that person is saying, much less think well of him, and makes me want to react like a normal human would.

Ain't it great that when we get to heaven that we are going to love each other? Do you think we will even remember these exchanges? Are we truly attempting to get to the truth as we believe what that truth is, or are we spending too much time trying to find a "weak link" in someone else's post and expose it in a non-loving manner? Of course that may depend.

Coke Bear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Coke Bear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Again, this verse has to do with the people on earth AFTER the Church age. You are not rightly dividing the word.

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What does this mean?

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We've already discussed this. The sheep and goats judgement is NOT a judgement on believers. Believers are the "these brothers of mine" Jesus referred to.

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We must have different versions of the bible. Mine says:

"All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats."

The KJV even says, "And before him shall be gathered all nations."

Yours must say believers. To me (and the Church) "all the nations" is all humanity. This passage is clearly discussing the Final Judgement.

I am curious if other protestants view this as just "believers" or all of humanity.

The "these brothers of mine" in verse 40 appear to those who the "sheep" did works for, not those being judged. I would appreciate another protestant providing their view of this as well.

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Jesus specifically stated in Scripture that his brothers, mothers, sisters, etc are all those who believe in him. They are not part of the sheep and goats judgement. If they are, then the passage doesn't make sense. It also would contradict every teaching in the Bible, even Jesus himself, who stated that believers will not come into judgement (John 5:24). It would be saying that being saved is purely by one's works regardless of faith, which contradicts the entire gospel of the New Testament.

Once AGAIN, in order for your view to be true, the Bible has to contradict itself.

Coke Bear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Yes, IF. But Scripture teaches that true believers will not. Notice that EVEN IF we can lose our salvation, it would only be based on faith, not works.

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I'm confused. Are you saying now that OSAS is false and you can lose your faith and salvation?


How can one know if they are a TRUE believer? How do you draw a distinction? You stated that faith is Hebrews 11:1 -

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

If I understand your position correctly, Jim Baker, who claims that he never stopped loving Jesus - who never lost his faith, never lost his salvation, even for a moment, when he was defrauding and committing adultery?

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- No, can't you read?

- Yes, it's true some people think they're true believers, but they're really not. But I truly believe that each person, if they truly seek the truth from the Holy Spirit in prayer and evaluate themselves honestly, will know if they truly believe or not. People deceive themselves because they don't honestly seek the truth.

- I don't know what was in Jim Baker's heart, and neither do you. You're gonna keep running into this dead end in your failed argument.

BUDOS said:

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Interesting point.
Additionally, If one is a "true believer" but they backslide, is it because of their actions/works? Was Baker ever a true believer, or was he always one? Or was he a fraud?
How many answers are there to such questions? Who decides which answer(s) is/are correct? Have you ever wondered about the fact that despite Christ telling us about how we should live and work and believe, and that we have one set of scriptures to go by, that we have so many different Christian denominations interpreting His Word in so many ways? As I do at times, Some seem to get caught up in the weeds and still others claim that their way is the only way, despite that Christ tells us what the true way is.

I can often accept being corrected, and at times thank the person for doing so. Matter of fact I have done the same. My experience has been that if the person approached me in a mature manner and one where they asked me why I thought I was right and then explained where I was wrong, then it often became an opportunity to further improve a relationship. When I became a leader I learned how effective this approach is. Have you had the same experience?

I know when someone claims that I am wrong and they do so in an aggressive manner and tone, it makes it a lot more difficult to focus on what that person is saying, much less think well of him, and makes me want to react like a normal human would.

Ain't it great that when we get to heaven that we are going to love each other? Do you think we will even remember these exchanges? Are we truly attempting to get to the truth as we believe what that truth is, or are we spending too much time trying to find a "weak link" in someone else's post and expose it in a non-loving manner? Of course that may depend.

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"....despite that Christ tells us what the true way is."

He's told us. It's in the Bible. You guys are not in line with it. You're adding to the gospel of grace with works. The bible clearly calls that a false gospel, and that those who do this are accursed. That's not being "Pharisee", "authoritarian", or "having a mean tone", that's the Bible telling you, not any person.

I think the "Pharisee", "mean tone" labels are just defense mechanisms to not have to confront the fact that one might be wrong.

You clearly endorsed CokeBear's comment in full where he defends the idolatry of Mary. That's why you NEED TO answer the question whether you think those things I said are idolatry or not. Because if that's where you are, you are a false Christian, and worse, a false Bible teacher. If you hide and refuse to answer it, under the guise of "mean tone", then you obviously don't have the spirit of truth, and everything else you say about the Bible is suspect as well. "You know them by their fruits".

No, I don't need to respond. I choose to.

I will make one attempt to clarify the Mary issue.
My comment that I agreed with Coke Bear was referring to his response to your comments and that I agreed with the points he was making about how you were interpreting his. It is another example of how you often perceive, interpret, code, and filter the information you take in, and screw it up.

You seem to have extensive exposure to the scriptures and it is very unfortunate that you express it in a manner which too often negates the good you could do. You have given your rationale for why express yourself in that manner. However, it doesn't change the damage you are doing, and you indicate that you are okay with that.

Well I guess when He asks you how your method worked to grow His Kingdom compared to His, your answer will be straight from your heart. If your response is accepted, and I do believe that there is a chance it will, it could be because your motive was pure. You just could have done even better, in my opinion. Additionally, you definitely have a passion for the word; however, in my opinion, like the rest of us you have some blind spots. We may disagree on which ones.

BUDOS said:

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No, I don't need to respond. I choose to.

I will make one attempt to clarify the Mary issue.
My comment that I agreed with Coke Bear was referring to his response to your comments and that I agreed with the points he was making about how you were interpreting his. It is another example of how you often perceive, interpret, code, and filter the information you take in, and screw it up.

You seem to have extensive exposure to the scriptures and it is very unfortunate that you express it in a manner which too often negates the good you could do. You have given your rationale for why express yourself in that manner. However, it doesn't change the damage you are doing, and you indicate that you are okay with that.

Well I guess when He asks you how your method worked to grow His Kingdom compared to His, your answer will be straight from your heart. If your response is accepted, and I do believe that there is a chance it will, it could be because your motive was pure. You just could have done even better, in my opinion. Additionally, you definitely have a passion for the word; however, in my opinion, like the rest of us you have some blind spots. We may disagree on which ones.

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There was no misperception, miscoding, or misinterpreting ANYTHING with your comment. You gave a blanket approval of his comment, which contained the defense of marian idolatry. I did NOT assume you supported marian idolatry. I ASKED YOU TO CLARIFY. You didn't answer. So I asked you AGAIN. Asking someone to clarify and take a stand on an issue that they were not explicit on is not "screwing up" anything. If anyone screwing up something, it's you with your assessment here.

All the "Pharisee" and "bad tone" accusations are just stall and diversion tactics so that you don't have address what I'm saying. Let's grow up and wear our adult pants and not be so scared of others "tone", and let's have serious, but respectul and intellectually honest discussions. Using these tactics is NOT conducting a respectuful, intellectually honest discussion. If you won't answer whether what Roman Catholics do to Mary is idolatry, then just say that. Stop the games. You STILL haven't answered it, btw, even though you said you "chose" to address it. You chose nothing. I'm also still waiting for your answer to whether or not you feel you've communicated the biblical gospel well by saying that faith in Jesus only makes one a "candidate" for salvation. There are good reasons why I'm focusing on these, I'm not just trying to be mean. There's gospel implications to what you're saying. If you want to discuss, then let's do so, but if you want to hide behind the veneer of righteous indignation at my "tone", then I'm just gonna have to call out your BS.

You spend a lot of energy worrying about the "damage" other people doing, but maybe you should worry about the damage you might be doing if you're not getting the gospel right, especially since you say you teach it. Maybe worry about what YOU will say to God if you've led people to the wrong gospel?

You're a nut case wearing blinder.

BUDOS said:

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Interesting point.
Additionally, If one is a "true believer" but they backslide, is it because of their actions/works? Was Baker ever a true believer, or was he always one? Or was he a fraud?
How many answers are there to such questions? Who decides which answer(s) is/are correct? Have you ever wondered about the fact that despite Christ telling us about how we should live and work and believe, and that we have one set of scriptures to go by, that we have so many different Christian denominations interpreting His Word in so many ways? As I do at times, Some seem to get caught up in the weeds and still others claim that their way is the only way, despite that Christ tells us what the true way is.

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These are great questions.

I believe that our views on salvation are more closely aligned.

How does one know if he is a true believer? Let's take JB out of the equation for a moment. We could look at anyone of us, hypothetically. We are all baptized (hopefully) believers in Christ. I would be willing to wager that ALL of us have greatly sinned at some point after that conversion.

The Church and the Bible are very clear that one can lose salvation and friendship with the Lord. The great news is that God sent His son to pay a debt that we couldn't pay and that he didn't owe. God's mercy is so GREAT. Through repentance, we can find friendship with God again.

This essentially is the "kerygma."

God knows that we will keep sinning. That is why we ask for forgiveness. It restores our friendship with Him.

With respect to multiple denominations, Jesus did pray that we'd be one in John 17:20-23. It greatly saddened in 1517 when Luther decided to leave the Church due to his own theology because of his arrogance and pride. Look what happens today in churches across the world when someone doesn't agree with a pastor, they leave and take part of the congregation with them and start a new church. It's happened several times here in Waco alone. People essentially are choosing what THEY want their theology to be.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Jesus specifically stated in Scripture that his brothers, mothers, sisters, etc are all those who believe in him. They are not part of the sheep and goats judgement. If they are, then the passage doesn't make sense. It also would contradict every teaching in the Bible, even Jesus himself, who stated that believers will not come into judgement (John 5:24). It would be saying that being saved is purely by one's works regardless of faith, which contradicts the entire gospel of the New Testament.

Once AGAIN, in order for your view to be true, the Bible has to contradict itself.

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You have once again a misunderstanding or you are conflating two different passages to support your theology.

Jesus is clear here in Matt 5:32 that "All the nations" refers to all of humanity.

You have a misunderstanding with the "judgement" in John 5:24. Jesus is saying that His believers won't be condemned. EVERYONE is getting a judgment. The Greek in this passage uses "krisis". It broadly refers to "a process of judgement or decision-making, and it can imply a judicial verdict or an assessment.

In this passage, "krisis" refers particularly to condemnation or the negative outcome of judgement.

The passage is saying that those believers will avoid the "krisis" of condemnation.

As you know, many passages state that everyone is getting judged.
Romans 14:10-12
2 Cor 5:10
Heb 9:27
Rev 20:11-15

Just so that we're on the same page, how are you defining "Judgement"?

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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- Yes, it's true some people think they're true believers, but they're really not. But I truly believe that each person, if they truly seek the truth from the Holy Spirit in prayer and evaluate themselves honestly, will know if they truly believe or not. People deceive themselves because they don't honestly seek the truth.

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How does one "truly seek the truth from the Holy Spirit in prayer and evaluate themselves honestly"?

What does that entail?

How do I know that I'm saved? I spend at least an hour in prayer everyday. I read (listen) the bible (and the catechism) everyday. I only listen to religious podcasts. I speak to the Holy Spirit everyday. I go to mass every Sunday's and most Friday's. What more must I do? Or anyone do?

I won't call this a "work" to offend you, but it seems like you are putting qualifiers on salvation.

One quibble. To attack Luther's presumed arrogance while ignoring crimes by the Roman powers seems petty and dishonest to my perspective.

Oldbear83 said:

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One quibble. To attack Luther's presumed arrogance while ignoring crimes by the Roman powers seems petty and dishonest to my perspective.

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First, I stated that some of his arguments had merit. No one in the Church denies that.

Second, what specific crimes (murder, theft, etc.) were committed and by whom and when?

Finally, who or what do you mean by the "Roman powers"? I really don't know. No one in the Catholic Church refers to anyone or period using that term.

Coke Bear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Jesus specifically stated in Scripture that his brothers, mothers, sisters, etc are all those who believe in him. They are not part of the sheep and goats judgement. If they are, then the passage doesn't make sense. It also would contradict every teaching in the Bible, even Jesus himself, who stated that believers will not come into judgement (John 5:24). It would be saying that being saved is purely by one's works regardless of faith, which contradicts the entire gospel of the New Testament.

Once AGAIN, in order for your view to be true, the Bible has to contradict itself.

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You have once again a misunderstanding or you are conflating two different passages to support your theology.

Jesus is clear here in Matt 5:32 that "All the nations" refers to all of humanity.

You have a misunderstanding with the "judgement" in John 5:24. Jesus is saying that His believers won't be condemned. EVERYONE is getting a judgment. The Greek in this passage uses "krisis". It broadly refers to "a process of judgement or decision-making, and it can imply a judicial verdict or an assessment.

In this passage, "krisis" refers particularly to condemnation or the negative outcome of judgement.

The passage is saying that those believers will avoid the "krisis" of condemnation.

As you know, many passages state that everyone is getting judged.
Romans 14:10-12
2 Cor 5:10
Heb 9:27
Rev 20:11-15

Just so that we're on the same page, how are you defining "Judgement"?

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"Judgement" in the sense that one's eternal fate is decided based on what one has done. Jesus clearly tells us that believers will NOT be judged for this, because by believing they "will not be judged, but have crossed over from death to life." (John 5:24).

Christians will be judged to determine their rewards, not their salvation.

If you insist that the sheep and goats parable is about the judgement of ALL people, believers included, on whether or not they are saved, then you are saying that the Bible is teaching salvation based purely on works. This would put the Bible in contradiction. You're repeatedly avoiding/glossing over this major problem with your position. This is exactly what I was talking about with BUDOS, how you guys keep dodging the point. It makes for a very disingenuous discussion, and in order to keep you guys honest and focused, that's when the firm "tone" has to come out. BUDOS has decided that this effectively ends the conversation, which is a tactic he's using to avoid having to give an answer. So ditch the tactics and face reality. Deal with the main problem with your position, the contradiction, rather than focusing on a point about who's getting judged.

Coke Bear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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- Yes, it's true some people think they're true believers, but they're really not. But I truly believe that each person, if they truly seek the truth from the Holy Spirit in prayer and evaluate themselves honestly, will know if they truly believe or not. People deceive themselves because they don't honestly seek the truth.

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How does one "truly seek the truth from the Holy Spirit in prayer and evaluate themselves honestly"?

What does that entail?

How do I know that I'm saved? I spend at least an hour in prayer everyday. I read (listen) the bible (and the catechism) everyday. I only listen to religious podcasts. I speak to the Holy Spirit everyday. I go to mass every Sunday's and most Friday's. What more must I do? Or anyone do?

I won't call this a "work" to offend you, but it seems like you are putting qualifiers on salvation.

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There's no qualifiers to salvation with what I said. You're asking how someone can KNOW they are saved, not how can they BE saved. Now you're conflating the two.

Coke Bear said:

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BUDOS said:

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Interesting point.
Additionally, If one is a "true believer" but they backslide, is it because of their actions/works? Was Baker ever a true believer, or was he always one? Or was he a fraud?
How many answers are there to such questions? Who decides which answer(s) is/are correct? Have you ever wondered about the fact that despite Christ telling us about how we should live and work and believe, and that we have one set of scriptures to go by, that we have so many different Christian denominations interpreting His Word in so many ways? As I do at times, Some seem to get caught up in the weeds and still others claim that their way is the only way, despite that Christ tells us what the true way is.

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These are great questions.

I believe that our views on salvation are more closely aligned.

How does one know if he is a true believer? Let's take JB out of the equation for a moment. We could look at anyone of us, hypothetically. We are all baptized (hopefully) believers in Christ. I would be willing to wager that ALL of us have greatly sinned at some point after that conversion.

The Church and the Bible are very clear that one can lose salvation and friendship with the Lord. The great news is that God sent His son to pay a debt that we couldn't pay and that he didn't owe. God's mercy is so GREAT. Through repentance, we can find friendship with God again.

This essentially is the "kerygma."

God knows that we will keep sinning. That is why we ask for forgiveness. It restores our friendship with Him.

With respect to multiple denominations, Jesus did pray that we'd be one in John 17:20-23. It greatly saddened in 1517 when Luther decided to leave the Church due to his own theology because of his arrogance and pride. Look what happens today in churches across the world when someone doesn't agree with a pastor, they leave and take part of the congregation with them and start a new church. It's happened several times here in Waco alone. People essentially are choosing what THEY want their theology to be.

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Your Roman Catholic view that you have to keep your salvation by avoiding sin, is saying that your salvation is dependent on your performance and ability to keep the Law.

Paul CLEARLY teaches that once you add any performance requirement, you've removed grace. Paul CLEARLY calls this a false gospel and that anyone who promotes it is accursed. This was the whole point of his letter to the Galatians.

BUDOS said:

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You're a nut case wearing blinder.

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As a teacher of the Bible, what would you say to one of your students who asks you if the Roman Catholic practice of praying to Mary for intervention, bowing to statues of her in church, singing hymns to her, holding multiple festivals for her throughout the year, calling her "sovereign", "Mediatrix", "ruler of my house", "our hope and refuge", "peacemaker between sinners and God".....

...."god of this world", placing one's "salvation into her hands", and also taking the Psalms from the Bible and removing God and inserting Mary in God's place, and believing in apparitions of Mary that say to "sacrifice yourself for sinners", "spread devotion to Mary around the world", and that a "sure path to God is through Mary"...

... if your student asks you whether all these things are heretical and idolatrous, what would your answer be?

Please don't play dumb, Coke Bear. You are well educated and certainly know what I meant. No purpose to getting into all that again unless you want a BTD-style bickerfest.

I respect the Roman Catholics and simply ask for the same in return.

That's also better for the purpose of moving ahead.

Coke Bear
Much of what you said during the first part of your post we are pretty much in sync.
Some of our views regarding salvation do appear to be similar; however, we do differ to a larger extent when it comes to Luther and Mary.

In my opinion, Catholics, Methodists, Baptists, Assembly of God, Presbyterians, and some others can all be Christians, even if we don't always agree on non-salvation issues. You and I don't agree some, partially agree on some and agree on others. That doesn't mean we will wind up in different places, as long as we are in line with Christ and follow Him and His teachings.

BUDOS said:

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Coke Bear
Much of what you said during the first part of your post we are pretty much in sync.
Some of our views regarding salvation do appear to be similar; however, we do differ to a larger extent when it comes to Luther and Mary.

In my opinion, Catholics, Methodists, Baptists, Assembly of God, Presbyterians, and some others can all be Christians, even if we don't always agree on non-salvation issues. You and I don't agree some, partially agree on some and agree on others. That doesn't mean we will wind up in different places, as long as we are in line with Christ and follow Him and His teachings.

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But how can a "faith in Jesus makes you only a candidate for salvation" and a sacraments based salvation system (faith plus works gospels) really be in line with Jesus' teachings if those gospels are called false gospels by Paul, who says you are accursed if you promote them?

You guys just don't want to engage the real questions. You just want happy ecumenism and a "everyone goes home happy with their beliefs" type dialogue.

Or we may just be tired of putting up with you, your tone, how you assume you know what we said and believe, as you so often parse and misinterpret our words, and your high and mighty attitude which you rationalize away to soothe your ego. Of it may just be me. I rewrote this a couple of times but finally decided saying this way, would make it easier for you to understand, as it seems to be similar to your language.

BUDOS said:

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Or we may just be tired of putting up with you, your tone, how you assume you know what we said and believe, as you so often parse and misinterpret our words, and your high and mighty attitude which you rationalize away to soothe your ego. Of it may just be me. I rewrote this a couple of times but finally decided saying this way, would make it easier for you to understand, as it seems to be similar to your language.

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The only thing people are seeing in your comment is that you're dodging the very important questions I've asked you.

I've asked them without any "bad tone" (unlike your comment here, ironically) so you can't use that as an excuse. I'll continue to wait.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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BUDOS said:

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Or we may just be tired of putting up with you, your tone, how you assume you know what we said and believe, as you so often parse and misinterpret our words, and your high and mighty attitude which you rationalize away to soothe your ego. Of it may just be me. I rewrote this a couple of times but finally decided saying this way, would make it easier for you to understand, as it seems to be similar to your language.

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The only thing people are seeing in your comment is that you're dodging the very important questions I've asked you.

I've asked them without any "bad tone" (unlike your comment here, ironically) so you can't use that as an excuse. I'll continue to wait.

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No, people are seeing that you continue to be an asshat serving the Father of Lies nonstop for at least a couple of years. I'm sure Jesus is proud of your work.

curtpenn said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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BUDOS said:

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Or we may just be tired of putting up with you, your tone, how you assume you know what we said and believe, as you so often parse and misinterpret our words, and your high and mighty attitude which you rationalize away to soothe your ego. Of it may just be me. I rewrote this a couple of times but finally decided saying this way, would make it easier for you to understand, as it seems to be similar to your language.

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The only thing people are seeing in your comment is that you're dodging the very important questions I've asked you.

I've asked them without any "bad tone" (unlike your comment here, ironically) so you can't use that as an excuse. I'll continue to wait.

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No, people are seeing that you continue to be an asshat serving the Father of Lies nonstop for at least a couple of years. I'm sure Jesus is proud of your work.

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If you guys would just put as much mental energy and effort into addressing my points as you do in attacking me, maybe the discussion can actually go somewhere, and you guys wouldn't keep getting called out.

Ultimately, here's what the two opposing views being expressed in this thread are, encapsulated in this way:

"I have faith in Jesus - I have to be good so that I WILL BE saved."

.... as opposed to:

"I have faith in Jesus - I have to be good, because I AM saved."

Understand this, and understand how one of these views is the true, Biblical gospel and the other is exactly what Paul says is accursed because it adds a person's performance and rule-keeping to grace, which destroys grace and thus destroys the true gospel, and you'll understand the significance of the matter. Unfortunately, most of the commenters in this thread are holding the view that Paul says is accursed. That's why it's of utmost importance to hash this out.

The two opposing views are actually these:

"By God's grace I can always find forgiveness."

"By God's grace I no longer need forgiveness."

The first is the biblical and historically Christian view. The second is both heretical and manifestly untrue of all imperfect human beings.