xfrodobagginsx said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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Realitybites said:

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Quote:

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2 Timothy 3:16-17 KJV
[16] All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: [17] that the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

---

100% correct.

However the verse says all, not only.

---

True, but even there God never says 'human tradition is as trustworthy as God's Scripture'

Give it a rest.

---

He never says to ignore tradition either and he certainly never says sola scriotura and he certainly says eat my body

So one has to decide, are you john 6:53 or john 6:61

---

Jesus warns against traditions


Mark 7:9 KJV
[9] And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

Mark 7:13 KJV
[13] making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

---

Jesus also warns against false prophets and schismatics.

Thes 2:15

1 corinthians 11:2

Re traditions ^

Jesus spoke against the pharisees prioritizing legalism in their traditions over the word of God. Context matters. The Bible makes clear it cannot contain everything Jesus said and did

Context matters

xfrodobagginsx said:

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Realitybites said:

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Quote:

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2 Timothy 3:16-17 KJV
[16] All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: [17] that the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

---

100% correct.

However the verse says all, not only.

---

Only Jesus is infallable. Priests are men. Jesus is the Mediator between God and Men, not a Priest. All a Priest can do is point you to the Bible and or pray for you.

1 Timothy 2:5 KJV
[5] For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

---

The priest also can counsel you on how to better run your race. God forgives sins. Priests do not. All churches have leadership structures, whether they are Orthodox, Roman Catholic, or Protestant. The most evangelical of evangelicals accepts the concept of prayer partners, accountability partners, pastors, and deacons.

"Instead of me, he says, you have the Scriptures; when you wish to learn something, you can learn it from them. And if this was said to Timothy, who was full of the Holy Spirit, is it not even more fitting to say it to us?"

Fre3dombear said:

---

Thes 2:15

---

"So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter."

The ONLY spoken words and letters from the original apostles that we have today is in Scripture. You still can not provide ANY spoken word or letter that we know came from the apostles that is NOT in Scripture. You've been repeatedly challenged to provide this, and you have repeatedly failed to do so. As long as this is the case, your argument fails.

Hence, sola scriptura.

Fre3dombear said:

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xfrodobagginsx said:

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Fre3dombear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

Quote:

---

2 Timothy 3:16-17 KJV
[16] All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: [17] that the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

---

100% correct.

However the verse says all, not only.

---

True, but even there God never says 'human tradition is as trustworthy as God's Scripture'

Give it a rest.

---

He never says to ignore tradition either and he certainly never says sola scriotura and he certainly says eat my body

So one has to decide, are you john 6:53 or john 6:61

---

Jesus warns against traditions


Mark 7:9 KJV
[9] And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

Mark 7:13 KJV
[13] making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

---

Jesus also warns against false prophets and schismatics.

---

In the false prophets are the ones who disobey the word of God, the Bible.

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

Quote:

---

2 Timothy 3:16-17 KJV
[16] All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: [17] that the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

---

100% correct.

However the verse says all, not only.

---

True, but even there God never says 'human tradition is as trustworthy as God's Scripture'

Give it a rest.

---

He never says to ignore tradition either and he certainly never says sola scriotura and he certainly says eat my body

So one has to decide, are you john 6:53 or john 6:61

---

Jesus warns against traditions


Mark 7:9 KJV
[9] And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

Mark 7:13 KJV
[13] making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

---

Jesus also warns against false prophets and schismatics.

---

In the false prophets are the ones who disobey the word of God, the Bible.

---

And schismatics that lead the flock astray

Fre3dombear said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

Quote:

---

2 Timothy 3:16-17 KJV
[16] All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: [17] that the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

---

100% correct.

However the verse says all, not only.

---

True, but even there God never says 'human tradition is as trustworthy as God's Scripture'

Give it a rest.

---

He never says to ignore tradition either and he certainly never says sola scriotura and he certainly says eat my body

So one has to decide, are you john 6:53 or john 6:61

---

Jesus warns against traditions


Mark 7:9 KJV
[9] And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

Mark 7:13 KJV
[13] making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

---

Jesus also warns against false prophets and schismatics.

---

In the false prophets are the ones who disobey the word of God, the Bible.

---

And schismatics that lead the flock astray

---

What do you mean by schismatics?

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

Quote:

---

2 Timothy 3:16-17 KJV
[16] All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: [17] that the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

---

100% correct.

However the verse says all, not only.

---

True, but even there God never says 'human tradition is as trustworthy as God's Scripture'

Give it a rest.

---

He never says to ignore tradition either and he certainly never says sola scriotura and he certainly says eat my body

So one has to decide, are you john 6:53 or john 6:61

---

Jesus warns against traditions


Mark 7:9 KJV
[9] And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

Mark 7:13 KJV
[13] making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

---

Jesus also warns against false prophets and schismatics.

---

In the false prophets are the ones who disobey the word of God, the Bible.

---

And schismatics that lead the flock astray

---

What do you mean by schismatics?

---

People Jesus warned about that drive schism in His church

Fre3dombear said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

Quote:

---

2 Timothy 3:16-17 KJV
[16] All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: [17] that the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

---

100% correct.

However the verse says all, not only.

---

True, but even there God never says 'human tradition is as trustworthy as God's Scripture'

Give it a rest.

---

He never says to ignore tradition either and he certainly never says sola scriotura and he certainly says eat my body

So one has to decide, are you john 6:53 or john 6:61

---

Jesus warns against traditions


Mark 7:9 KJV
[9] And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

Mark 7:13 KJV
[13] making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

---

Jesus also warns against false prophets and schismatics.

---

In the false prophets are the ones who disobey the word of God, the Bible.

---

And schismatics that lead the flock astray

---

What do you mean by schismatics?

---

People Jesus warned about that drive schism in His church

---

Which group, by the way, includes its share of Roman Catholics.

Oldbear83 said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

Quote:

---

2 Timothy 3:16-17 KJV
[16] All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: [17] that the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

---

100% correct.

However the verse says all, not only.

---

True, but even there God never says 'human tradition is as trustworthy as God's Scripture'

Give it a rest.

---

He never says to ignore tradition either and he certainly never says sola scriotura and he certainly says eat my body

So one has to decide, are you john 6:53 or john 6:61

---

Jesus warns against traditions


Mark 7:9 KJV
[9] And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

Mark 7:13 KJV
[13] making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

---

Jesus also warns against false prophets and schismatics.

---

In the false prophets are the ones who disobey the word of God, the Bible.

---

And schismatics that lead the flock astray

---

What do you mean by schismatics?

---

People Jesus warned about that drive schism in His church

---

Which group, by the way, includes its share of Roman Catholics.

---

Pope Francis could possibly have been amongst them

Ive written at length here about the infiltration of the Catholic church the last century and of course theres been anti popes through the ages at times as we all know .

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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Against the Fundamental Epistle of Manichaeus:

Now, if you please, patiently give heed to my inquiry. I do not believe Manichaeus to be an apostle of Christ. Do not, I beg of you, be enraged and begin to curse. For you know that it is my rule to believe none of your statements without consideration. Therefore I ask, who is this Manichaeus? You will reply, An apostle of Christ. I do not believe it. Now you are at a loss what to say or do; for you promised to give knowledge of the truth, and here you are forcing me to believe what I have no knowledge of. Perhaps you will read the gospel to me, and will attempt to find there a testimony to Manichaeus. But should you meet with a person not yet believing the gospel, how would you reply to him were he to say, I do not believe?

For my part, I should not believe the gospel except as moved by the authority of the Catholic Church. So when those on whose authority I have consented to believe in the gospel tell me not to believe in Manichaeus, how can I but consent? Take your choice. If you say, Believe the Catholics: their advice to me is to put no faith in you; so that, believing them, I am precluded from believing you -- If you say, Do not believe the Catholics: you cannot fairly use the gospel in bringing me to faith in Manichaeus; for it was at the command of the Catholics that I believed the gospel;-- Again, if you say, You were right in believing the Catholics when they praised the gospel, but wrong in believing their vituperation of Manichaeus: do you think me such a fool as to believe or not to believe as you like or dislike, without any reason? It is therefore fairer and safer by far for me, having in one instance put faith in the Catholics, not to go over to you, till, instead of bidding me believe, you make me understand something in the clearest and most open manner. To convince me, then, you must put aside the gospel. If you keep to the gospel, I will keep to those who commanded me to believe the gospel; and, in obedience to them, I will not believe you at all. But if haply you should succeed in finding in the gospel an incontrovertible testimony to the apostleship of Manichaeus, you will weaken my regard for the authority of the Catholics who bid me not to believe you; and the effect of that will be, that I shall no longer be able to believe the gospel either, for it was through the Catholics that I got my faith in it; and so, whatever you bring from the gospel will no longer have any weight with me.

Wherefore, if no clear proof of the apostleship of Manichaeus is found in the gospel, I will believe the Catholics rather than you. But if you read thence some passage clearly in favor of Manichaeus, I will believe neither them nor you: not them, for they lied to me about you; nor you, for you quote to me that Scripture which I had believed on the authority of those liars. But far be it that I should not believe the gospel; for believing it, I find no way of believing you too. For the names of the apostles, as there recorded, do not include the name of Manichaeus.

---

Augustine isn't saying that the Church had the "authority" to tell him to believe the gospel. What he's saying is that he believed the gospel because of the Church's "authority" in the sense that the Church represented a continuous line and an unbroken chain of witness that went back to Jesus and his apostles; thus the Church possessed the preserved witness of the original apostles and had the credibility to speak to the truth of it and vouch for the apostles and their authorship of Scripture. Once that truth had been established in his mind, Scripture represented the infallible word of God. This in no way means that Augustine believed that since the Church was an "authoritative" source for the validity of the witness of the apostles, it also meant the Church had "authority" in the form of leaders (i.e. magisterium) that was on par with Scripture, and that could infallibly direct the Church.

To illustrate with an analogy, suppose you worked as a helper to someone who built houses flawlessly. When you go into a town of people needing houses, you are an "authority" to the truth that the person you worked for could build houses flawlessly because you worked directly under him and saw everything. Hence, the people view you as the authority to that truth, and so on your witness they hire that builder. In other words, "they should not believe the builder except as moved by your authority." Now, once the building of the houses starts, they listen to him as the infallible source for building, and they do exactly what he says. They don't listen to you, however, because though you were an authority in vouching for that builder, it doesn't make you an infallible authority on building houses.

The quote you provided above in no way contradicts his other quotes affirming sola scriptura. It is compatible with it. Augustine clearly indicated that he believed the ONLY inerrant source was Scripture and that all other sources were secondary, as is made evident in his quotes. Here's another such quote in addition to the ones already mentioned:

"But there are others who do not say that all these truths are false. They honour your sacred Scripture, which you gave to us through your holy servant Moses, and just as I do, they look on it as the highest authority that we must follow." (Confessions, 12.19)

---

There is no builder on earth any more. The builders have gone to heaven, and Scripture is the edifice that they left for us. We know it's a sound edifice by the witness of the helper. If you can't trust his knowledge of design and construction, there's reason to doubt his judgment altogether.

---

The builder is ever present and involved. He never left. He still heads the building of houses through his Paraclete. The Paraclete is not the helper who preserved witness of him, the Paraclete IS the builder. The helper and those he recruits to join him are tasked to preserve the plans the builder left for every generation thereafter and they are all to follow the plans precisely, under the guidance of the Paraclete (the builder). The plans the builder left are the only infallible guide to building the houses. The men who are helpers are not themselves infallible. They can err, and must always check themselves against the plans the builder left. Anytime someone claims that the Paraclete gave them additional plans and instructions, they must be weighed against the builder's original plans, because the Paraclete will not go against them. If it does, then the Paraclete did not talk to them.

---

The builders in this analogy would be the Apostles.

---

Actually in my original analogy it was Jesus/apostles/the apostles word, i.e. Scripture as a whole. The helpers are those who followed them (the church). The helpers' "authority" is in their preservation of the builders' witness (i.e. Scripture) and their ability to vouch for its truth, NOT in their ability to always interpret and execute those plans infallibly. That part wasn't in the plans, no matter how the helpers try to convince others that it is. Their work must always be weighed against the only infallible source that is given to them - the original builders' plans.

Regardless, the point is that Augustine was not speaking about church authority being infallible. He clearly only attributes that to Scripture. He clearly elevates Scripture to a different plane than everything else, citing it as the highest authority and the only thing we should always follow. I really don't think this can be denied. Augustine stated this pretty clearly.

---

You can't have a dialogue with Jesus and the Apostles in the same way you can with their successors. Scripture requires interpretation. Augustine believed in the Church's authority to help us interpret.

---

You're retreating from your position. Of course Augustine believed in the Church's authority to "help" us interpret. He did not, however, believe the Church was infallible in doing so. He clearly indicated that only Scripture was infallible and that the Church was always liable to be corrected by it. This is as clear of an affirmation of sola scriptura as you can get. Obvious to any intellectually honest person, your Church's view that sola scriptura is a 500 year old invention is completely wrong. They've lied to you.

---

He clearly did not indicate that, as one can see from the letter against Manichaeus. Augustine didn't believe the Church could contradict Scripture. But if it did, hypothetically, he would have been forced to question both.

---

Two points:

1) Augustine believed that the truth of Scripture was founded on the witness of the Church; so if the Church failed, so did their witness to the truth of Scripture, and thus his belief in Scripture fails. However, this does NOT mean that once the truth of Scripture is established, that the Church was infallible in its interpretation and application. These are two very different things.

---

But Augustine expressly links the two.

You are right that his writings and those of other Catholics in general weren't infallible. That's what he's saying in the letter you cited. It is different with magisterial teaching.

---

There's an equivocation between "authority" in the sense of being in a position to verify something, and "authority" in the sense of an ongoing infallibility. Augustine didn't link these. He clearly held only Scripture as infallible and above ALL in authority. Nowhere does he cite the same infallibility with magisterial teaching. He clearly indicated that the Church can err and be corrected, whether it be individual fathers or even ecumenical councils.

---

Augustine says, "For my part, I should not believe the gospel except as moved by the authority of the Catholic Church. So when those on whose authority I have consented to believe in the gospel tell me not to believe in Manichaeus, how can I but consent?" This clearly points to an ongoing interpretive authority.

Infallible statements of ecumenical councils cannot be corrected, but not every statement is in that category.

---

No, that's the equivocation. You're mixing positional and interpretive authority.

---

I'm not mixing them. Augustine is.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Coke Bear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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If earlier councils need to be corrected by later ones, then clearly the Church is not infallible. He clearly says that Scripture IS infallible. This is pretty much a textbook affirmation of sola scriptura.

---

This is another misunderstanding what the nature of the councils. He was addressing the differences between regional and ecumenical councils.

But let's say he wasn't for the sake of the argument.

You have a misunderstanding of the nature of these councils. Not EVERYTHING proclaimed at a council is infallible. Only matters of faith and morals that are definitively intended to be held by the entire Church.

Secondarily, a difference exists between dogma and discipline. Disciplinary decisions like liturgical norms (using Latin or common vernacular at mass) or disciplinary practices (priestly celibacy) can change. Other dogmatic items (the divinity of Jesus and the Holy Spirit, hypostatic union, the two wills of Christ, etc.) are dogmas that CANNOT change.

---

If not everything proclaimed in a council is infallible, then the council isn't infallible. Picking and choosing what is infallible completely destroys your argument. If the men in those councils can fail in one area, they certainly can fail in any other. You have absolutely no basis for your picking and choosing. And Augustine said nothing about infallibility of Church councils with regard to faith and morals, or dogma vs. discipline.

---

That's like saying that if any SCOTUS opinion contains dicta, the Court has no authority to decide an issue.

Sam Lowry said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Against the Fundamental Epistle of Manichaeus:

Now, if you please, patiently give heed to my inquiry. I do not believe Manichaeus to be an apostle of Christ. Do not, I beg of you, be enraged and begin to curse. For you know that it is my rule to believe none of your statements without consideration. Therefore I ask, who is this Manichaeus? You will reply, An apostle of Christ. I do not believe it. Now you are at a loss what to say or do; for you promised to give knowledge of the truth, and here you are forcing me to believe what I have no knowledge of. Perhaps you will read the gospel to me, and will attempt to find there a testimony to Manichaeus. But should you meet with a person not yet believing the gospel, how would you reply to him were he to say, I do not believe?

For my part, I should not believe the gospel except as moved by the authority of the Catholic Church. So when those on whose authority I have consented to believe in the gospel tell me not to believe in Manichaeus, how can I but consent? Take your choice. If you say, Believe the Catholics: their advice to me is to put no faith in you; so that, believing them, I am precluded from believing you -- If you say, Do not believe the Catholics: you cannot fairly use the gospel in bringing me to faith in Manichaeus; for it was at the command of the Catholics that I believed the gospel;-- Again, if you say, You were right in believing the Catholics when they praised the gospel, but wrong in believing their vituperation of Manichaeus: do you think me such a fool as to believe or not to believe as you like or dislike, without any reason? It is therefore fairer and safer by far for me, having in one instance put faith in the Catholics, not to go over to you, till, instead of bidding me believe, you make me understand something in the clearest and most open manner. To convince me, then, you must put aside the gospel. If you keep to the gospel, I will keep to those who commanded me to believe the gospel; and, in obedience to them, I will not believe you at all. But if haply you should succeed in finding in the gospel an incontrovertible testimony to the apostleship of Manichaeus, you will weaken my regard for the authority of the Catholics who bid me not to believe you; and the effect of that will be, that I shall no longer be able to believe the gospel either, for it was through the Catholics that I got my faith in it; and so, whatever you bring from the gospel will no longer have any weight with me.

Wherefore, if no clear proof of the apostleship of Manichaeus is found in the gospel, I will believe the Catholics rather than you. But if you read thence some passage clearly in favor of Manichaeus, I will believe neither them nor you: not them, for they lied to me about you; nor you, for you quote to me that Scripture which I had believed on the authority of those liars. But far be it that I should not believe the gospel; for believing it, I find no way of believing you too. For the names of the apostles, as there recorded, do not include the name of Manichaeus.

---

Augustine isn't saying that the Church had the "authority" to tell him to believe the gospel. What he's saying is that he believed the gospel because of the Church's "authority" in the sense that the Church represented a continuous line and an unbroken chain of witness that went back to Jesus and his apostles; thus the Church possessed the preserved witness of the original apostles and had the credibility to speak to the truth of it and vouch for the apostles and their authorship of Scripture. Once that truth had been established in his mind, Scripture represented the infallible word of God. This in no way means that Augustine believed that since the Church was an "authoritative" source for the validity of the witness of the apostles, it also meant the Church had "authority" in the form of leaders (i.e. magisterium) that was on par with Scripture, and that could infallibly direct the Church.

To illustrate with an analogy, suppose you worked as a helper to someone who built houses flawlessly. When you go into a town of people needing houses, you are an "authority" to the truth that the person you worked for could build houses flawlessly because you worked directly under him and saw everything. Hence, the people view you as the authority to that truth, and so on your witness they hire that builder. In other words, "they should not believe the builder except as moved by your authority." Now, once the building of the houses starts, they listen to him as the infallible source for building, and they do exactly what he says. They don't listen to you, however, because though you were an authority in vouching for that builder, it doesn't make you an infallible authority on building houses.

The quote you provided above in no way contradicts his other quotes affirming sola scriptura. It is compatible with it. Augustine clearly indicated that he believed the ONLY inerrant source was Scripture and that all other sources were secondary, as is made evident in his quotes. Here's another such quote in addition to the ones already mentioned:

"But there are others who do not say that all these truths are false. They honour your sacred Scripture, which you gave to us through your holy servant Moses, and just as I do, they look on it as the highest authority that we must follow." (Confessions, 12.19)

---

There is no builder on earth any more. The builders have gone to heaven, and Scripture is the edifice that they left for us. We know it's a sound edifice by the witness of the helper. If you can't trust his knowledge of design and construction, there's reason to doubt his judgment altogether.

---

The builder is ever present and involved. He never left. He still heads the building of houses through his Paraclete. The Paraclete is not the helper who preserved witness of him, the Paraclete IS the builder. The helper and those he recruits to join him are tasked to preserve the plans the builder left for every generation thereafter and they are all to follow the plans precisely, under the guidance of the Paraclete (the builder). The plans the builder left are the only infallible guide to building the houses. The men who are helpers are not themselves infallible. They can err, and must always check themselves against the plans the builder left. Anytime someone claims that the Paraclete gave them additional plans and instructions, they must be weighed against the builder's original plans, because the Paraclete will not go against them. If it does, then the Paraclete did not talk to them.

---

The builders in this analogy would be the Apostles.

---

Actually in my original analogy it was Jesus/apostles/the apostles word, i.e. Scripture as a whole. The helpers are those who followed them (the church). The helpers' "authority" is in their preservation of the builders' witness (i.e. Scripture) and their ability to vouch for its truth, NOT in their ability to always interpret and execute those plans infallibly. That part wasn't in the plans, no matter how the helpers try to convince others that it is. Their work must always be weighed against the only infallible source that is given to them - the original builders' plans.

Regardless, the point is that Augustine was not speaking about church authority being infallible. He clearly only attributes that to Scripture. He clearly elevates Scripture to a different plane than everything else, citing it as the highest authority and the only thing we should always follow. I really don't think this can be denied. Augustine stated this pretty clearly.

---

You can't have a dialogue with Jesus and the Apostles in the same way you can with their successors. Scripture requires interpretation. Augustine believed in the Church's authority to help us interpret.

---

You're retreating from your position. Of course Augustine believed in the Church's authority to "help" us interpret. He did not, however, believe the Church was infallible in doing so. He clearly indicated that only Scripture was infallible and that the Church was always liable to be corrected by it. This is as clear of an affirmation of sola scriptura as you can get. Obvious to any intellectually honest person, your Church's view that sola scriptura is a 500 year old invention is completely wrong. They've lied to you.

---

He clearly did not indicate that, as one can see from the letter against Manichaeus. Augustine didn't believe the Church could contradict Scripture. But if it did, hypothetically, he would have been forced to question both.

---

Two points:

1) Augustine believed that the truth of Scripture was founded on the witness of the Church; so if the Church failed, so did their witness to the truth of Scripture, and thus his belief in Scripture fails. However, this does NOT mean that once the truth of Scripture is established, that the Church was infallible in its interpretation and application. These are two very different things.

---

But Augustine expressly links the two.

You are right that his writings and those of other Catholics in general weren't infallible. That's what he's saying in the letter you cited. It is different with magisterial teaching.

---

There's an equivocation between "authority" in the sense of being in a position to verify something, and "authority" in the sense of an ongoing infallibility. Augustine didn't link these. He clearly held only Scripture as infallible and above ALL in authority. Nowhere does he cite the same infallibility with magisterial teaching. He clearly indicated that the Church can err and be corrected, whether it be individual fathers or even ecumenical councils.

---

Augustine says, "For my part, I should not believe the gospel except as moved by the authority of the Catholic Church. So when those on whose authority I have consented to believe in the gospel tell me not to believe in Manichaeus, how can I but consent?" This clearly points to an ongoing interpretive authority.

Infallible statements of ecumenical councils cannot be corrected, but not every statement is in that category.

---

No, that's the equivocation. You're mixing positional and interpretive authority.

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I'm not mixing them. Augustine is.

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No, he's not. He believed the Church was in position to affirm the authenticity and reliability of the witness of Scripture, not that the Church was infallible in interpreting it. His view that only Scripture, the "highest authority" to be followed, is inerrant and that church fathers, regional councils, and even ecumenical councils were all liable to be corrected demonstrates that.

Sam Lowry said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Coke Bear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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If earlier councils need to be corrected by later ones, then clearly the Church is not infallible. He clearly says that Scripture IS infallible. This is pretty much a textbook affirmation of sola scriptura.

---

This is another misunderstanding what the nature of the councils. He was addressing the differences between regional and ecumenical councils.

But let's say he wasn't for the sake of the argument.

You have a misunderstanding of the nature of these councils. Not EVERYTHING proclaimed at a council is infallible. Only matters of faith and morals that are definitively intended to be held by the entire Church.

Secondarily, a difference exists between dogma and discipline. Disciplinary decisions like liturgical norms (using Latin or common vernacular at mass) or disciplinary practices (priestly celibacy) can change. Other dogmatic items (the divinity of Jesus and the Holy Spirit, hypostatic union, the two wills of Christ, etc.) are dogmas that CANNOT change.

---

If not everything proclaimed in a council is infallible, then the council isn't infallible. Picking and choosing what is infallible completely destroys your argument. If the men in those councils can fail in one area, they certainly can fail in any other. You have absolutely no basis for your picking and choosing. And Augustine said nothing about infallibility of Church councils with regard to faith and morals, or dogma vs. discipline.

---

That's like saying that if any SCOTUS opinion contains dicta, the Court has no authority to decide an issue.

---

It's not saying that at all. It's not about authority, it's about infallibility.

You're welcome to your beliefs, but they were not shared by Augustine. I will leave it at that.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Coke Bear said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

If earlier councils need to be corrected by later ones, then clearly the Church is not infallible. He clearly says that Scripture IS infallible. This is pretty much a textbook affirmation of sola scriptura.

---

This is another misunderstanding what the nature of the councils. He was addressing the differences between regional and ecumenical councils.

But let's say he wasn't for the sake of the argument.

You have a misunderstanding of the nature of these councils. Not EVERYTHING proclaimed at a council is infallible. Only matters of faith and morals that are definitively intended to be held by the entire Church.

Secondarily, a difference exists between dogma and discipline. Disciplinary decisions like liturgical norms (using Latin or common vernacular at mass) or disciplinary practices (priestly celibacy) can change. Other dogmatic items (the divinity of Jesus and the Holy Spirit, hypostatic union, the two wills of Christ, etc.) are dogmas that CANNOT change.

---

If not everything proclaimed in a council is infallible, then the council isn't infallible. Picking and choosing what is infallible completely destroys your argument. If the men in those councils can fail in one area, they certainly can fail in any other. You have absolutely no basis for your picking and choosing. And Augustine said nothing about infallibility of Church councils with regard to faith and morals, or dogma vs. discipline.

---

That's like saying that if any SCOTUS opinion contains dicta, the Court has no authority to decide an issue.

---

It's not saying that at all. It's not about authority, it's about infallibility.

---

They are the same thing. You misunderstand infallibility because you attribute it to men. But the Church's authority to teach infallibly comes from the guidance of the Holy Spirit, as promised by Christ. It doesn't mean the bishops are perfect or that everything they say is correct.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Coke Bear said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

If earlier councils need to be corrected by later ones, then clearly the Church is not infallible. He clearly says that Scripture IS infallible. This is pretty much a textbook affirmation of sola scriptura.

---

This is another misunderstanding what the nature of the councils. He was addressing the differences between regional and ecumenical councils.

But let's say he wasn't for the sake of the argument.

You have a misunderstanding of the nature of these councils. Not EVERYTHING proclaimed at a council is infallible. Only matters of faith and morals that are definitively intended to be held by the entire Church.

Secondarily, a difference exists between dogma and discipline. Disciplinary decisions like liturgical norms (using Latin or common vernacular at mass) or disciplinary practices (priestly celibacy) can change. Other dogmatic items (the divinity of Jesus and the Holy Spirit, hypostatic union, the two wills of Christ, etc.) are dogmas that CANNOT change.

---

If not everything proclaimed in a council is infallible, then the council isn't infallible. Picking and choosing what is infallible completely destroys your argument. If the men in those councils can fail in one area, they certainly can fail in any other. You have absolutely no basis for your picking and choosing. And Augustine said nothing about infallibility of Church councils with regard to faith and morals, or dogma vs. discipline.

---

That's like saying that if any SCOTUS opinion contains dicta, the Court has no authority to decide an issue.

---

It's not saying that at all. It's not about authority, it's about infallibility.

---

20 lb sledge, meet thumbtack.

Fre3dombear said:

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xfrodobagginsx said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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xfrodobagginsx said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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xfrodobagginsx said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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Realitybites said:

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Quote:

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2 Timothy 3:16-17 KJV
[16] All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: [17] that the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

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100% correct.

However the verse says all, not only.

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True, but even there God never says 'human tradition is as trustworthy as God's Scripture'

Give it a rest.

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He never says to ignore tradition either and he certainly never says sola scriotura and he certainly says eat my body

So one has to decide, are you john 6:53 or john 6:61

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Jesus warns against traditions


Mark 7:9 KJV
[9] And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

Mark 7:13 KJV
[13] making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

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Jesus also warns against false prophets and schismatics.

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In the false prophets are the ones who disobey the word of God, the Bible.

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And schismatics that lead the flock astray

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What do you mean by schismatics?

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People Jesus warned about that drive schism in His church

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Schism meaning false teachers?

Sam Lowry said:

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You're welcome to your beliefs, but they were not shared by Augustine. I will leave it at that.

---

Not all of them. But regarding the concept of sola scriptura, his own words make it clear that he did. So maybe you Roman Catholics shouldn't treat the idea like it's Protestant poison.

Sam Lowry said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Coke Bear said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

If earlier councils need to be corrected by later ones, then clearly the Church is not infallible. He clearly says that Scripture IS infallible. This is pretty much a textbook affirmation of sola scriptura.

---

This is another misunderstanding what the nature of the councils. He was addressing the differences between regional and ecumenical councils.

But let's say he wasn't for the sake of the argument.

You have a misunderstanding of the nature of these councils. Not EVERYTHING proclaimed at a council is infallible. Only matters of faith and morals that are definitively intended to be held by the entire Church.

Secondarily, a difference exists between dogma and discipline. Disciplinary decisions like liturgical norms (using Latin or common vernacular at mass) or disciplinary practices (priestly celibacy) can change. Other dogmatic items (the divinity of Jesus and the Holy Spirit, hypostatic union, the two wills of Christ, etc.) are dogmas that CANNOT change.

---

If not everything proclaimed in a council is infallible, then the council isn't infallible. Picking and choosing what is infallible completely destroys your argument. If the men in those councils can fail in one area, they certainly can fail in any other. You have absolutely no basis for your picking and choosing. And Augustine said nothing about infallibility of Church councils with regard to faith and morals, or dogma vs. discipline.

---

That's like saying that if any SCOTUS opinion contains dicta, the Court has no authority to decide an issue.

---

It's not saying that at all. It's not about authority, it's about infallibility.

---

They are the same thing. You misunderstand infallibility because you attribute it to men. But the Church's authority to teach infallibly comes from the guidance of the Holy Spirit, as promised by Christ. It doesn't mean the bishops are perfect or that everything they say is correct.

---

Jesus never promised that his church would always teach infallibly. One only has to look at the errant ways of the churches that Paul started, and Jesus' letters to the seven churches in Revelation as just two examples. What Jesus did promise was that his church would not be overtaken and defeated by the Devil. And it has not been. Jesus didn't say that his Church would never go astray and never need reform. Protestantism was that reform, a return to true biblical Christianity, the true Christianity that had been severely distorted and compromised, having been led astray by the whims of man.

I showed you direct quotes where Roman Catholicism teaches that MARY is the way to salvation - do you, Sam Lowry, HONESTLY believe that is Christianity? Do you honestly not see the utter blasphemy, heresy, and idolatry there? Do you HONESTLY believe that such a thing could be the product of an infallible teaching office?

Question: what did they talk about today at church?

Which church did you attend this week?

Ephesians 1:13 KJV
[13] In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

xfrodobagginsx said:

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curtpenn said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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curtpenn said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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curtpenn said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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curtpenn said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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curtpenn said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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curtpenn said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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curtpenn said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Folks, the times when there were people here actually trying to demean, humiliate, and use harsh language - no one says a word about it; however, the charge of trying to demean, humiliate, and use harsh tone only seems to arise when one's view is being seriously challenged, and the only way out of it is to redirect the fault to the other guy in order to avoid actually having to address the issue, by making their perceived faults the issue. It's a game that's played over and over in this forum. And there can't really be anything productive from this, can there? Watching people in this forum trying to manipulate the narrative in order to steer away from the really vital issues and questions and to marginalize the ones bringing it up is really sad. Truth is never served this way.

---

More irony from the chief Pharisee. lol.

---

There it is! The "Pharisee" moniker to conveniently avoid the debate because they have no argument against anything I've said.

Not surprising coming from an empty vessel who can only resort to cursing and nastiness because they simply can't debate.

You're plain evil, you can't help it. You've demonstrated that time and again. Go find someone else to curse at - only biblically sound, factual, and logical arguments will be engaged here.

---

Empty words from the resident Chief Hypocrite who does exactly all the things you've just enumerated. You should just own it. At least that would be the honest thing to do..

---

You provide absolutely ZERO to the discussion except to hurl your hatred. Your insults are your cover for your inadequacies.

Clang on, empty vessel. And thanks again for reading every single word I write.

---

Clang on in your stupidity thinking I read every single word you write. Are you a moron, a liar, or a moronic liar?

---

We're already aware of the highest level of intellect you're capable of - calling other people names. You don't have to keep demonstrating it. You're only living up to your empty vessel moniker. But clang on, if that floats your boat. We're having tense conversations here, so we might need the occasional comic relief.

---

Ah, your brand of vitriol is supported by Holy Scripture (or, so you claim) so that makes it Godly. Got it. Whatever floats your boat indeed. Pure comic genius on your part, Son of Satan.

---

You defend "Mary is THE HOLY ONE", and with hatred and vitriol.

What more needs to be said? You're evil. Calling someone "Son of Satan" is the biggest projection anyone's ever witnessed.

Clang on, empty vessel.

---

The most evil one here is you in your constant attacks on the body and bride of Christ. Res ipsa loquitur. You can count on me to drop by here from time to time to remind you of your shameful behavior. I pray you will eventually come to see the error of your ways and repent.

---

If it isn't crystal clear to you that we should never place our salvation in another person's hands other than Jesus, or believe MARY is THE ALL HOLY ONE, then you aren't in the body of Christ. Period. Simple as that.

You ARE, though, defending a certain body with all your attacks on me and what I'm saying. It's just not the body that you think.

---

Show us where Roman Catholics define salvation as being in and through the Blessed Virgin Mary. Do you seriously think anyone here holds to that? Typical straw man from you.

---

Here is more:

"O Virgin most holy, none abounds in the knowledge of God except through thee; none, O Mother of God, attains salvation except through thee; none receives a gift from the throne of mercy except through thee." (Pope Leo XIII, Adiutricem, 9)


How's the "straw man" lookin'? Still need more? Typical ignorant comment from you.

---

Typical logic fail from you; notice the conjunction in "in and through". Nothing you quote claims salvation is both in and through. There is no doubt that the Blessed Virgin Mary may provide a pathway to her Son for some or many. You are blind and/or lying.

---

Mary is a good woman, but she can't provide anything for us. Only Jesus Christ can. The path to Jesus Christ is Faith in Him and His death and resurrection, His shed blood as the sacrifice, payment for our sins.

---

St Mary has obviously benefited millions. You are wrong.

curtpenn said:

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xfrodobagginsx said:

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curtpenn said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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curtpenn said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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curtpenn said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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curtpenn said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Folks, the times when there were people here actually trying to demean, humiliate, and use harsh language - no one says a word about it; however, the charge of trying to demean, humiliate, and use harsh tone only seems to arise when one's view is being seriously challenged, and the only way out of it is to redirect the fault to the other guy in order to avoid actually having to address the issue, by making their perceived faults the issue. It's a game that's played over and over in this forum. And there can't really be anything productive from this, can there? Watching people in this forum trying to manipulate the narrative in order to steer away from the really vital issues and questions and to marginalize the ones bringing it up is really sad. Truth is never served this way.

---

More irony from the chief Pharisee. lol.

---

There it is! The "Pharisee" moniker to conveniently avoid the debate because they have no argument against anything I've said.

Not surprising coming from an empty vessel who can only resort to cursing and nastiness because they simply can't debate.

You're plain evil, you can't help it. You've demonstrated that time and again. Go find someone else to curse at - only biblically sound, factual, and logical arguments will be engaged here.

---

Empty words from the resident Chief Hypocrite who does exactly all the things you've just enumerated. You should just own it. At least that would be the honest thing to do..

---

You provide absolutely ZERO to the discussion except to hurl your hatred. Your insults are your cover for your inadequacies.

Clang on, empty vessel. And thanks again for reading every single word I write.

---

Clang on in your stupidity thinking I read every single word you write. Are you a moron, a liar, or a moronic liar?

---

We're already aware of the highest level of intellect you're capable of - calling other people names. You don't have to keep demonstrating it. You're only living up to your empty vessel moniker. But clang on, if that floats your boat. We're having tense conversations here, so we might need the occasional comic relief.

---

Ah, your brand of vitriol is supported by Holy Scripture (or, so you claim) so that makes it Godly. Got it. Whatever floats your boat indeed. Pure comic genius on your part, Son of Satan.

---

You defend "Mary is THE HOLY ONE", and with hatred and vitriol.

What more needs to be said? You're evil. Calling someone "Son of Satan" is the biggest projection anyone's ever witnessed.

Clang on, empty vessel.

---

The most evil one here is you in your constant attacks on the body and bride of Christ. Res ipsa loquitur. You can count on me to drop by here from time to time to remind you of your shameful behavior. I pray you will eventually come to see the error of your ways and repent.

---

If it isn't crystal clear to you that we should never place our salvation in another person's hands other than Jesus, or believe MARY is THE ALL HOLY ONE, then you aren't in the body of Christ. Period. Simple as that.

You ARE, though, defending a certain body with all your attacks on me and what I'm saying. It's just not the body that you think.

---

Show us where Roman Catholics define salvation as being in and through the Blessed Virgin Mary. Do you seriously think anyone here holds to that? Typical straw man from you.

---

Here is more:

"O Virgin most holy, none abounds in the knowledge of God except through thee; none, O Mother of God, attains salvation except through thee; none receives a gift from the throne of mercy except through thee." (Pope Leo XIII, Adiutricem, 9)


How's the "straw man" lookin'? Still need more? Typical ignorant comment from you.

---

Typical logic fail from you; notice the conjunction in "in and through". Nothing you quote claims salvation is both in and through. There is no doubt that the Blessed Virgin Mary may provide a pathway to her Son for some or many. You are blind and/or lying.

---

Mary is a good woman, but she can't provide anything for us. Only Jesus Christ can. The path to Jesus Christ is Faith in Him and His death and resurrection, His shed blood as the sacrifice, payment for our sins.

---

St Mary has obviously benefited millions. You are wrong.

---

Still not praying to Jesus' mom, seeing as He never did.

curtpenn said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Folks, the times when there were people here actually trying to demean, humiliate, and use harsh language - no one says a word about it; however, the charge of trying to demean, humiliate, and use harsh tone only seems to arise when one's view is being seriously challenged, and the only way out of it is to redirect the fault to the other guy in order to avoid actually having to address the issue, by making their perceived faults the issue. It's a game that's played over and over in this forum. And there can't really be anything productive from this, can there? Watching people in this forum trying to manipulate the narrative in order to steer away from the really vital issues and questions and to marginalize the ones bringing it up is really sad. Truth is never served this way.

---

More irony from the chief Pharisee. lol.

---

There it is! The "Pharisee" moniker to conveniently avoid the debate because they have no argument against anything I've said.

Not surprising coming from an empty vessel who can only resort to cursing and nastiness because they simply can't debate.

You're plain evil, you can't help it. You've demonstrated that time and again. Go find someone else to curse at - only biblically sound, factual, and logical arguments will be engaged here.

---

Empty words from the resident Chief Hypocrite who does exactly all the things you've just enumerated. You should just own it. At least that would be the honest thing to do..

---

You provide absolutely ZERO to the discussion except to hurl your hatred. Your insults are your cover for your inadequacies.

Clang on, empty vessel. And thanks again for reading every single word I write.

---

Clang on in your stupidity thinking I read every single word you write. Are you a moron, a liar, or a moronic liar?

---

We're already aware of the highest level of intellect you're capable of - calling other people names. You don't have to keep demonstrating it. You're only living up to your empty vessel moniker. But clang on, if that floats your boat. We're having tense conversations here, so we might need the occasional comic relief.

---

Ah, your brand of vitriol is supported by Holy Scripture (or, so you claim) so that makes it Godly. Got it. Whatever floats your boat indeed. Pure comic genius on your part, Son of Satan.

---

You defend "Mary is THE HOLY ONE", and with hatred and vitriol.

What more needs to be said? You're evil. Calling someone "Son of Satan" is the biggest projection anyone's ever witnessed.

Clang on, empty vessel.

---

The most evil one here is you in your constant attacks on the body and bride of Christ. Res ipsa loquitur. You can count on me to drop by here from time to time to remind you of your shameful behavior. I pray you will eventually come to see the error of your ways and repent.

---

If it isn't crystal clear to you that we should never place our salvation in another person's hands other than Jesus, or believe MARY is THE ALL HOLY ONE, then you aren't in the body of Christ. Period. Simple as that.

You ARE, though, defending a certain body with all your attacks on me and what I'm saying. It's just not the body that you think.

---

Show us where Roman Catholics define salvation as being in and through the Blessed Virgin Mary. Do you seriously think anyone here holds to that? Typical straw man from you.

---

Here is more:

"O Virgin most holy, none abounds in the knowledge of God except through thee; none, O Mother of God, attains salvation except through thee; none receives a gift from the throne of mercy except through thee." (Pope Leo XIII, Adiutricem, 9)


How's the "straw man" lookin'? Still need more? Typical ignorant comment from you.

---

Typical logic fail from you; notice the conjunction in "in and through". Nothing you quote claims salvation is both in and through. There is no doubt that the Blessed Virgin Mary may provide a pathway to her Son for some or many. You are blind and/or lying.

---

Mary is a good woman, but she can't provide anything for us. Only Jesus Christ can. The path to Jesus Christ is Faith in Him and His death and resurrection, His shed blood as the sacrifice, payment for our sins.

---

St Mary has obviously benefited millions. You are wrong.

---

Besides carrying our Lord and Savior in her womb and raising Him, what else are you referring to? Mary is not the focus, Christ is. She is merely His Mother. Good woman, good Mother, but cannot do anything for you, only her Son can.

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

PLEASE TAKE THE TIME TO READ THIS. IT'S THE MOST IMPORTANT THING YOU COULD EVER DO AND IT ONLY TAKES A FEW MINUTES
ARE YOU 100% SURE THAT IF YOU DIED TODAY THAT YOU WOULD GO TO HEAVEN? (CLICK 'READ MORE')

There are some things that you should know:

1. Realize that you are a sinner and in need of a Savior:

Ro 3:23 "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;"

Ro 3:10 "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:"

It all began when the first humans, Adam and Eve were created and God put them in the garden of Eden. God created them perfect to live in fellowship with Him. There was no death or sorrow. God told them not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. They disobeyed God and as a result, sin entered into the world. The pain, which this world sees, is the result of sin.

2. Because of our sins, we die both spiritually and physically, but God sent His Son to die so that you can have a chance not to have to go to hell by accepting what He did on the cross:

Ro 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

Ro 5:8 "But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us."

Every person who has ever lived is a sinner and is not righteous because we do bad things. A sin is a crime against God, just as if you steal something at the store, it is punishable by going to jail. It's the same thing with sin. Lying, stealing, sex before marriage, pride, hatred, ect. are all sins. Hell is a prison for those who commit crimes against God. That's because you must be perfect in order to get to heaven. No matter how well you live your life from then on, you have already sinned, which will be punished if you are not pardoned. If you commit a crime, and then live as a good citizen you still will go to jail for the crime you committed. Right? Just as the President can pardon a crime so you won't go to jail, Jesus can pardon your sins so that you do not go to hell, and can go to heaven when you die. You won't have to pay for your own sins because Jesus already did that for you, But if you reject the pardon that He offers, you will have to pay for your own sins by going to hell. He is the only one qualified because He is the only one ever to live a sinless, perfect life.

3. If you will confess Jesus Christ as Your Lord, place your Faith in Him and Believe in your heart that He died, shed His blood and rose again as a sacrifice for your sins, you will be saved (from hell).

Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

Heb 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

You cannot get to heaven by being a good person, going to church, baptism or any other way other than by turning to Jesus, believing in your heart that He died on the cross and rose from the dead for your sins and placing your Faith in Him. While these are good things to do, some people believe that they will get to heaven, but your Faith must be in Christ and His sacrifice alone and nothing else, giving your life to Him.

Eph 2:8,9 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Ro 10:9,10;13 "that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved...For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."

4. You must submit your life to Jesus Christ and His will in Faith, believing in your heart that He died and rose again shedding His blood to pay for your sins as a sacrifice to God. If you want to accept Jesus free gift of salvation, or if you have any doubts about whether or not you are going to heaven, YOU COULD HUMBLY PRAY SOMETHING LIKE THIS TO GOD FROM YOUR HEART IN FAITH:

"Dear Lord Jesus I know that I am a sinner and need you to save me. I believe that You are the Lord and believe in my heart that You died on the Cross and Rose from the dead, shedding your blood as a Sacrifice for my sins. I turn to You as the only way of Salvation, I submit my life to you, I submit my will to yours, I place my Faith and Trust in You alone as Lord of my life, Please save me and I thank You for it, in Jesus holy name, Amen."

If you have truly placed your faith in Jesus Christ as your Lord, submitting your life to Him, you can know that you are a child of God and on your way to heaven. Now that you are on your way to heaven, you should attend a bible believing Church and follow in baptism.

Studying The Bible Is Essential To Christians Growth. Click Here To Walk Through The Bible Verse By Verse From The Beginning, In 25 Minute Lessons:

https://www.lesfeldick.org/

---

This is the most ignorant post I have ever seen. Pure mythology.

Wow, in the past three hours or so we've had the antichrists respond weeks (even years) late to posts in this thread and another, either attacking Jesus or his gospel, or to elevate Marianism.

Did you guys just come out of a meeting?

xfrodobagginsx said:

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Which church did you attend this week?

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The one church in town that remained fully open during Covid, unmasked, worshipping God as they have for a couple of thousand years without change, taking communion out of a common cup, with the priest cautioning people about the Covid shot.

Realitybites said:

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xfrodobagginsx said:

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Which church did you attend this week?

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The one church in town that remained fully open during Covid, unmasked, worshipping God as they have for a couple of thousand years without change, taking communion out of a common cup, with the priest cautioning people about the Covid shot.

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Did you bring your own snakes, or do they hand them out at the door?

curtpenn said:

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xfrodobagginsx said:

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curtpenn said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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curtpenn said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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curtpenn said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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curtpenn said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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curtpenn said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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curtpenn said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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curtpenn said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Folks, the times when there were people here actually trying to demean, humiliate, and use harsh language - no one says a word about it; however, the charge of trying to demean, humiliate, and use harsh tone only seems to arise when one's view is being seriously challenged, and the only way out of it is to redirect the fault to the other guy in order to avoid actually having to address the issue, by making their perceived faults the issue. It's a game that's played over and over in this forum. And there can't really be anything productive from this, can there? Watching people in this forum trying to manipulate the narrative in order to steer away from the really vital issues and questions and to marginalize the ones bringing it up is really sad. Truth is never served this way.

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More irony from the chief Pharisee. lol.

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There it is! The "Pharisee" moniker to conveniently avoid the debate because they have no argument against anything I've said.

Not surprising coming from an empty vessel who can only resort to cursing and nastiness because they simply can't debate.

You're plain evil, you can't help it. You've demonstrated that time and again. Go find someone else to curse at - only biblically sound, factual, and logical arguments will be engaged here.

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Empty words from the resident Chief Hypocrite who does exactly all the things you've just enumerated. You should just own it. At least that would be the honest thing to do..

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You provide absolutely ZERO to the discussion except to hurl your hatred. Your insults are your cover for your inadequacies.

Clang on, empty vessel. And thanks again for reading every single word I write.

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Clang on in your stupidity thinking I read every single word you write. Are you a moron, a liar, or a moronic liar?

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We're already aware of the highest level of intellect you're capable of - calling other people names. You don't have to keep demonstrating it. You're only living up to your empty vessel moniker. But clang on, if that floats your boat. We're having tense conversations here, so we might need the occasional comic relief.

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Ah, your brand of vitriol is supported by Holy Scripture (or, so you claim) so that makes it Godly. Got it. Whatever floats your boat indeed. Pure comic genius on your part, Son of Satan.

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You defend "Mary is THE HOLY ONE", and with hatred and vitriol.

What more needs to be said? You're evil. Calling someone "Son of Satan" is the biggest projection anyone's ever witnessed.

Clang on, empty vessel.

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The most evil one here is you in your constant attacks on the body and bride of Christ. Res ipsa loquitur. You can count on me to drop by here from time to time to remind you of your shameful behavior. I pray you will eventually come to see the error of your ways and repent.

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If it isn't crystal clear to you that we should never place our salvation in another person's hands other than Jesus, or believe MARY is THE ALL HOLY ONE, then you aren't in the body of Christ. Period. Simple as that.

You ARE, though, defending a certain body with all your attacks on me and what I'm saying. It's just not the body that you think.

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Show us where Roman Catholics define salvation as being in and through the Blessed Virgin Mary. Do you seriously think anyone here holds to that? Typical straw man from you.

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Here is more:

"O Virgin most holy, none abounds in the knowledge of God except through thee; none, O Mother of God, attains salvation except through thee; none receives a gift from the throne of mercy except through thee." (Pope Leo XIII, Adiutricem, 9)


How's the "straw man" lookin'? Still need more? Typical ignorant comment from you.

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Typical logic fail from you; notice the conjunction in "in and through". Nothing you quote claims salvation is both in and through. There is no doubt that the Blessed Virgin Mary may provide a pathway to her Son for some or many. You are blind and/or lying.

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Mary is a good woman, but she can't provide anything for us. Only Jesus Christ can. The path to Jesus Christ is Faith in Him and His death and resurrection, His shed blood as the sacrifice, payment for our sins.

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St Mary has obviously benefited millions. You are wrong.

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Salvation does not come from Mary

joseywales said:

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xfrodobagginsx said:

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PLEASE TAKE THE TIME TO READ THIS. IT'S THE MOST IMPORTANT THING YOU COULD EVER DO AND IT ONLY TAKES A FEW MINUTES
ARE YOU 100% SURE THAT IF YOU DIED TODAY THAT YOU WOULD GO TO HEAVEN? (CLICK 'READ MORE')

There are some things that you should know:

1. Realize that you are a sinner and in need of a Savior:

Ro 3:23 "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;"

Ro 3:10 "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:"

It all began when the first humans, Adam and Eve were created and God put them in the garden of Eden. God created them perfect to live in fellowship with Him. There was no death or sorrow. God told them not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. They disobeyed God and as a result, sin entered into the world. The pain, which this world sees, is the result of sin.

2. Because of our sins, we die both spiritually and physically, but God sent His Son to die so that you can have a chance not to have to go to hell by accepting what He did on the cross:

Ro 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

Ro 5:8 "But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us."

Every person who has ever lived is a sinner and is not righteous because we do bad things. A sin is a crime against God, just as if you steal something at the store, it is punishable by going to jail. It's the same thing with sin. Lying, stealing, sex before marriage, pride, hatred, ect. are all sins. Hell is a prison for those who commit crimes against God. That's because you must be perfect in order to get to heaven. No matter how well you live your life from then on, you have already sinned, which will be punished if you are not pardoned. If you commit a crime, and then live as a good citizen you still will go to jail for the crime you committed. Right? Just as the President can pardon a crime so you won't go to jail, Jesus can pardon your sins so that you do not go to hell, and can go to heaven when you die. You won't have to pay for your own sins because Jesus already did that for you, But if you reject the pardon that He offers, you will have to pay for your own sins by going to hell. He is the only one qualified because He is the only one ever to live a sinless, perfect life.

3. If you will confess Jesus Christ as Your Lord, place your Faith in Him and Believe in your heart that He died, shed His blood and rose again as a sacrifice for your sins, you will be saved (from hell).

Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

Heb 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

You cannot get to heaven by being a good person, going to church, baptism or any other way other than by turning to Jesus, believing in your heart that He died on the cross and rose from the dead for your sins and placing your Faith in Him. While these are good things to do, some people believe that they will get to heaven, but your Faith must be in Christ and His sacrifice alone and nothing else, giving your life to Him.

Eph 2:8,9 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Ro 10:9,10;13 "that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved...For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."

4. You must submit your life to Jesus Christ and His will in Faith, believing in your heart that He died and rose again shedding His blood to pay for your sins as a sacrifice to God. If you want to accept Jesus free gift of salvation, or if you have any doubts about whether or not you are going to heaven, YOU COULD HUMBLY PRAY SOMETHING LIKE THIS TO GOD FROM YOUR HEART IN FAITH:

"Dear Lord Jesus I know that I am a sinner and need you to save me. I believe that You are the Lord and believe in my heart that You died on the Cross and Rose from the dead, shedding your blood as a Sacrifice for my sins. I turn to You as the only way of Salvation, I submit my life to you, I submit my will to yours, I place my Faith and Trust in You alone as Lord of my life, Please save me and I thank You for it, in Jesus holy name, Amen."

If you have truly placed your faith in Jesus Christ as your Lord, submitting your life to Him, you can know that you are a child of God and on your way to heaven. Now that you are on your way to heaven, you should attend a bible believing Church and follow in baptism.

Studying The Bible Is Essential To Christians Growth. Click Here To Walk Through The Bible Verse By Verse From The Beginning, In 25 Minute Lessons:

https://www.lesfeldick.org/

---

This is the most ignorant post I have ever seen. Pure mythology.

---

It's a good summary of the plan of salvation. The myth is believing there is any way to get to heaven other than through faith in Jesus Christ.

"Jesus said to him, 'I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.'" John 14:6

I'm unfamiliar with Lee Feldick but there are plenty of reputable sources for more information on Bible Study (Spurgeon, Sproul, MacArthur, Piper, etc) and there is nothing more rewarding than studying the Bible.

historian said:

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joseywales said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

PLEASE TAKE THE TIME TO READ THIS. IT'S THE MOST IMPORTANT THING YOU COULD EVER DO AND IT ONLY TAKES A FEW MINUTES
ARE YOU 100% SURE THAT IF YOU DIED TODAY THAT YOU WOULD GO TO HEAVEN? (CLICK 'READ MORE')

There are some things that you should know:

1. Realize that you are a sinner and in need of a Savior:

Ro 3:23 "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;"

Ro 3:10 "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:"

It all began when the first humans, Adam and Eve were created and God put them in the garden of Eden. God created them perfect to live in fellowship with Him. There was no death or sorrow. God told them not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. They disobeyed God and as a result, sin entered into the world. The pain, which this world sees, is the result of sin.

2. Because of our sins, we die both spiritually and physically, but God sent His Son to die so that you can have a chance not to have to go to hell by accepting what He did on the cross:

Ro 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

Ro 5:8 "But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us."

Every person who has ever lived is a sinner and is not righteous because we do bad things. A sin is a crime against God, just as if you steal something at the store, it is punishable by going to jail. It's the same thing with sin. Lying, stealing, sex before marriage, pride, hatred, ect. are all sins. Hell is a prison for those who commit crimes against God. That's because you must be perfect in order to get to heaven. No matter how well you live your life from then on, you have already sinned, which will be punished if you are not pardoned. If you commit a crime, and then live as a good citizen you still will go to jail for the crime you committed. Right? Just as the President can pardon a crime so you won't go to jail, Jesus can pardon your sins so that you do not go to hell, and can go to heaven when you die. You won't have to pay for your own sins because Jesus already did that for you, But if you reject the pardon that He offers, you will have to pay for your own sins by going to hell. He is the only one qualified because He is the only one ever to live a sinless, perfect life.

3. If you will confess Jesus Christ as Your Lord, place your Faith in Him and Believe in your heart that He died, shed His blood and rose again as a sacrifice for your sins, you will be saved (from hell).

Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

Heb 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

You cannot get to heaven by being a good person, going to church, baptism or any other way other than by turning to Jesus, believing in your heart that He died on the cross and rose from the dead for your sins and placing your Faith in Him. While these are good things to do, some people believe that they will get to heaven, but your Faith must be in Christ and His sacrifice alone and nothing else, giving your life to Him.

Eph 2:8,9 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Ro 10:9,10;13 "that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved...For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."

4. You must submit your life to Jesus Christ and His will in Faith, believing in your heart that He died and rose again shedding His blood to pay for your sins as a sacrifice to God. If you want to accept Jesus free gift of salvation, or if you have any doubts about whether or not you are going to heaven, YOU COULD HUMBLY PRAY SOMETHING LIKE THIS TO GOD FROM YOUR HEART IN FAITH:

"Dear Lord Jesus I know that I am a sinner and need you to save me. I believe that You are the Lord and believe in my heart that You died on the Cross and Rose from the dead, shedding your blood as a Sacrifice for my sins. I turn to You as the only way of Salvation, I submit my life to you, I submit my will to yours, I place my Faith and Trust in You alone as Lord of my life, Please save me and I thank You for it, in Jesus holy name, Amen."

If you have truly placed your faith in Jesus Christ as your Lord, submitting your life to Him, you can know that you are a child of God and on your way to heaven. Now that you are on your way to heaven, you should attend a bible believing Church and follow in baptism.

Studying The Bible Is Essential To Christians Growth. Click Here To Walk Through The Bible Verse By Verse From The Beginning, In 25 Minute Lessons:

https://www.lesfeldick.org/

---

This is the most ignorant post I have ever seen. Pure mythology.

---

It's a good summary of the plan of salvation. The myth is believing there is any way to get to heaven other than through faith in Jesus Christ.

"Jesus said to him, 'I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.'" John 14:6

I'm unfamiliar with Lee Feldick but there are plenty of reputable sources for more information on Bible Study (Spurgeon, Sproul, MacArthur, Piper, etc) and there is nothing more rewarding than studying the Bible.

---

I appreciate your support, but Les is the best Bible Teacher I have heard in my opinion, much better than those. I percieve that you are of the Calvinist Background as your sources are Calvinistic/Reformed Bible Teachers. Try Les Feldick. He is a lot like Dr James Vernon Mcghee in his Theology, Dispensationalist Theology.

I believe you. I prefer to be cautious about Bible teachers or scholars I've never heard of because there is so much false or questionable doctrine out there. Actually, I was raised southern Baptist (Baylor was a natural fit for me) and take the word of God as absolute truth. I am a fan of McGee's commentaries along with those of Barclay, Boice, MacArthur, Wiersbe, & others. It depends on whichnbook of the Bible is the focus.