John's Baptism that was a Water Baptism was only for a time until CHRIST comes and Baptizes the believer with the Holy Ghost unto Salvation and the Fire Represents God's Presence and Power. Water Baptism was required as a symbol of what was to come, but now that the Savior has come, we are Saved by the Holy Spirit Baptism, NOT water Baptism.


Mt 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

Lu 3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:

It is the Holy Spirit that Baptizes unto Salvation:

1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. {Gentiles: Gr. Greeks}

I believe every word said by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Claims from Paul, various Popes and Ministers, and our friend Frodo, not without corroborating it with what Christ said.

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

As much as I can tell from a message board that allows us to hide behind screen names, Frodo, Coke and 83 all seem to be good, strong, Christians. So, what does this thread look like to the non-Christian?

(In my deepest Steve Brown voice) You think about that.

---

Well, so far as I can tell, none of us is an ordained minister and this is a Politics, Religion and Shout-at-the-Clouds forum, so I think non-Christians would recognize this thread is a bunch of guys with more free time than intellect splitting a few hairs for the sake of conversation.

(in my most mellow Fred Rogers voice) Hope you are having a good day, neighbor.

Oldbear83 said:

---

I believe every word said by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Claims from Paul, various Popes and Ministers, and our friend Frodo, not without corroborating it with what Christ said.

---

The entire Bible is the Words of Jesus Christ. He inspired it through the Holy Spirit. It was the Risen Jesus Christ who called Paul into the Ministry and gave Paul his message. The 12 affirmed Paul and his message of Grace as from God. Believing Paul's writings IS believing Jesus. God is dealing with those under Grace differently today than He dealt with the Jews who were under the Law. That is why you are confused. You are going to God's instructions to the JEWS under the LAW. Paul's writings are to the GENTILES under GRACE. See the difference? The Church is NOT Israel. God has a different plan and purpose for each group of people and their instructions vary at times.

Ac 9:4 Then he fell to the ground, and heard a voice saying to him, "Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?"
Mt 25:40
5 And he said, "Who are You, Lord?" Then the Lord said, "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. It is hard for you to kick against the goads."
6 So he, trembling and astonished, said, "Lord, what do You want me to do?" Then the Lord said to him, "Arise and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do."

Paul was taught by the Risen Christ in Arabia


15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb and called me through His grace,
16 to reveal His Son in me, that I might preach Him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately confer with flesh and blood,
17 nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me; but I went to Arabia, and returned again to Damascus.
18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and remained with him fifteen days.
19 But I saw none of the other apostles except James, the Lord's brother.
20 (Now concerning the things which I write to you, indeed, before God, I do not lie.)
21 Afterward I went into the regions of Syria and Cilicia.
22 And I was unknown by face to the churches of Judea which were in Christ.
23 But they were hearing only, "He who formerly persecuted us now preaches the faith which he once tried to destroy."
24 And they glorified God in me.

Oldbear83 said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

As much as I can tell from a message board that allows us to hide behind screen names, Frodo, Coke and 83 all seem to be good, strong, Christians. So, what does this thread look like to the non-Christian?

(In my deepest Steve Brown voice) You think about that.

---

Well, so far as I can tell, none of us is an ordained minister and this is a Politics, Religion and Shout-at-the-Clouds forum, so I think non-Christians would recognize this thread is a bunch of guys with more free time than intellect splitting a few hairs for the sake of conversation.

(in my most mellow Fred Rogers voice) Hope you are having a good day, neighbor.

---

lol ( like Mr Greenjeans )

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

As much as I can tell from a message board that allows us to hide behind screen names, Frodo, Coke and 83 all seem to be good, strong, Christians. So, what does this thread look like to the non-Christian?

(In my deepest Steve Brown voice) You think about that.

---

Well, so far as I can tell, none of us is an ordained minister and this is a Politics, Religion and Shout-at-the-Clouds forum, so I think non-Christians would recognize this thread is a bunch of guys with more free time than intellect splitting a few hairs for the sake of conversation.

(in my most mellow Fred Rogers voice) Hope you are having a good day, neighbor.

---

lol ( like Mr Greenjeans )

---

Who is Mr Green Jeans?

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

As much as I can tell from a message board that allows us to hide behind screen names, Frodo, Coke and 83 all seem to be good, strong, Christians. So, what does this thread look like to the non-Christian?

(In my deepest Steve Brown voice) You think about that.

---

Well, so far as I can tell, none of us is an ordained minister and this is a Politics, Religion and Shout-at-the-Clouds forum, so I think non-Christians would recognize this thread is a bunch of guys with more free time than intellect splitting a few hairs for the sake of conversation.

(in my most mellow Fred Rogers voice) Hope you are having a good day, neighbor.

---

lol ( like Mr Greenjeans )

---

Who is Mr Green Jeans?

---

Somebody throws Fred Rogers at me, they better be ready for Mr Green jeans

https://www.google.com/search?q=mr+green+jeans&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en-us&client=safari

Frodo: "Water Baptism was required as a symbol of what was to come, but now that the Savior has come, we are Saved by the Holy Spirit Baptism, NOT water Baptism."

If Water Baptism does not matter, please explain Acts 8:36-38:

"And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?

"And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

"And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him."

See also Acts 16:30-34

"He then brought them out and asked, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"

"They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be savedyou and your household." Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all the others in his house. At that hour of the night the jailer took them and washed their wounds; then immediately he and all his household were baptized. The jailer brought them into his house and set a meal before them; he was filled with joy because he had come to believe in Godhe and his whole household."

See how belief led to Salvation, yet water baptism was an immediate action.

Consider also Mark 13:13

" Everyone will hate you because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved."

These are the words of Christ and leave no doubt that we are to do more than believe then sit on our hands.

And since you worship Paul, Frodo, consider Titus 3:8

" This is a trustworthy saying. And I want you to stress these things, so that those who have trusted in God may be careful to devote themselves to doing what is good. These things are excellent and profitable for everyone."

In that same chapter, Paul also warns (verse 2) believers " to slander no one, to be peaceable and considerate, and always to be gentle toward everyone."

Those are words you might do well to consider, brother.

Oldbear83 said:

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And since you worship Paul, Frodo, consider Titus 3:8

---

I've been somewhat busy and wasn't able to spend adequate time to respond to his post, but I'm glad you mentioned this.

I've heard of individual that placed Paul's epistles on a pedestal, but it seems that Frodo has elevated them above the Gospels and has divided the NT into teachings for Jews and teaching for Gentiles.

I've never ran across someone with this type of Theology (and we thought Waco47's theology was interesting. ; ) )

I'm off tomorrow. I do feel that his posts do deserve some critique. I'll try to do that this weekend.

That verse never says Paul was taught by the risen Christ when he was in Arabia. It simply says he went to Arabia.

This is a serious matter, because when Christ ascended into Heaven he would not return until the Day of the Lord:

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

"For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord."

Mark 13:32

"But concerning that day or that hour, no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."

Matthew 24:31

"And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

Matthew 24:27

"For as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man."

Paul would surely not deny the words of Christ on this point, nor claim something different in this part than he did in his epistles.

Further. it borders on idolatry to claim Christ gave special teaching to an apostle which He denied His own disciples. I don't know where you got this notion that Christ privately tutored Paul, but it is not Scriptural nor sound.

Oldbear83 said:

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That verse never says Paul was taught by the risen Christ when he was in Arabia. It simply says he went to Arabia.

This is a serious matter, because when Christ ascended into Heaven he would not return until the Day of the Lord:

---

Who did Paul see on the Road To Damascus? Who taught Paul his Doctrine?

Ga 1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

He wasn't taught his Gospel by the 12 because it's a different message than the 12 Taught.

Ga 1:11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.

The 12 Taught the Gospel of the Kingdom to Israel, which was Repent and Be Baptized and believe on your Messiah for Salvation:

Mt 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.


Paul taught the Gospel of Grace, which is Salvation by Grace through Faith in Christ without Works, believing that Jesus died and rose again.

Ac 20:24 But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God.

Ga 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:

Paul was sent to preach HIS Gospel of Grace to the Gentiles, while Peter was sent to preach the Gospel of the Kingdom to the Jews:

Ga 2:7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;

When the Jews rejected their Messiah, the Gospel of Grace went to the Gentiles and God put Israel on a shelf while He call out of the Gentiles a people for Himself:

Ac 15:14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.

Once the Gentile Church is complete, God is going to rapture them up into heaven and then He will once again turn His attention to Israel.

It is Paul's Gospel that we must obey at this time of Salvation by Grace through Faith alone. The Gospel of the Kingdom will be preached again during the Tribulation period. Paul said:

Ga 1:9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.

This is when Paul very likely was taught his Gospel message by the Lord Jesus Christ. If it were the same as the 12 to the Jews, one would think that God would have the 12 teach it to him. It says after 3 years Paul only saw Peter and James:

Ga 1:17 Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.
18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days. {went up: or, returned}
19 But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother.
20 Now the things which I write unto you, behold, before God, I lie not.

Idolatry is a serious sin, Frodo.

You are claiming things not said, ever, by Christ.

You are raising Paul to the rank of Messiah, in place of our Lord and Savior.

You have abandoned all context in the pursuit of an arrogant position taken by no serious denomination of the Church, in over two thousand years.


I cannot overstate the peril of your position.

I put it plainly: If Christ did not say it in the four Gospel accounts, it is not of Christ.

Even Paul cannot override Christ.

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Paul was sent to preach HIS Gospel of Grace to the Gentiles, while Peter was sent to preach the Gospel of the Kingdom to the Jews:

Ga 2:7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;

When the Jews rejected their Messiah, the Gospel of Grace went to the Gentiles and God put Israel on a shelf while He call out of the Gentiles a people for Himself:

Ac 15:14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.

---

Actually Peter went to Rome to preach to the Gentiles there too. He was martyred there as well. You can visit his tomb there, but that's not the focus of my post.

Frankly, your post has too much for me to dispute this late at night. Which brings me to the crux of my post ...

What branch or denomination of Christianity do you belong?
When did it start?
Who founded it?
From where did you get your theology?

Quite frankly, I can think of any major denomination that believes this. Not the Catholic Church, 33AD; Lutheran, 1517; Church of England, 1534; Presbyterian, 1560; Baptist, 1605; Methodist, 1744; and LDS, 1829.

NONE of them teach that Paul taught that had one message for the Gentiles and the apostles had a DIFFERENT messages for the Jews. The NT is for the entire world. All 27 books.

Final question -

Out of curiosity. What is your affiliation to Baylor?

Oldbear83 said:

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Idolatry is a serious sin, Frodo.

You are claiming things not said, ever, by Christ.

You are raising Paul to the rank of Messiah, in place of our Lord and Savior.

You have abandoned all context in the pursuit of an arrogant position taken by no serious denomination of the Church, in over two thousand years.


I cannot overstate the peril of your position.

---

So, the Bible verses that I quoted are NOT the words of Christ? Paul's writings are inspired from the Holy Ghost and therefore ARE the words of Christ. It was Jesus Christ who called Paul into His Ministry on the road to Damascus. It was Jesus Christ who taught Paul His Doctrine as I have shown you through the INSPIRED Word of God. You are using Christ's message to the JEWS under LAW and trying to apply them to the GENTILES under GRACE. Two different programs from God, from Christ, From the Holy Spirit. That is your err. You are also adding works to Grace, which nullifies it. The 12 Apostles also approved of Paul's Doctrine and Ministry. Were they wrong too? Obviously, I agree with Christ and the Apostles that Paul's Holy Spirit Inspired writings are correct and you are wrong.

As far as no serious denomination taking my Doctrine, that is false. The issue is that the Catholic Church for hundreds of years, murdered anyone who held any doctrine that wasn't in accordance with their false Doctrine. Many essential Doctrines had to be re discovered because they were lost. That's when the Reformation discovered many lost Doctrines by actually being able to READ the Scriptures that the Catholic Church HID and chained up for Centuries. Dispensationalism refines that Reformed Doctrine to a more proper interpretation of Scripture. The Catholics destroyed all sound Doctrine and then when it's re Discovered act like no one ever believed that before. Dispensationalism is based on what the Scriptures ACTUALLY say, not allegories and Church Traditions. Jesus taught against putting Traditions over Scripture.

Frodo: "So, the Bible verses that I quoted are NOT the words of Christ?"

When the Bible quotes Christ, it will say Jesus. Paul is not Christ.

There is indeed a spirit speaking to you on this point. I fear it is not the Holy Spirit.

Paul himself warned against what you teach, Frodo:

1 Corinthians 1:12-13:

"Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?"

Coke Bear said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Paul was sent to preach HIS Gospel of Grace to the Gentiles, while Peter was sent to preach the Gospel of the Kingdom to the Jews:

Ga 2:7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;

When the Jews rejected their Messiah, the Gospel of Grace went to the Gentiles and God put Israel on a shelf while He call out of the Gentiles a people for Himself:

Ac 15:14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.

---

Actually Peter went to Rome to preach to the Gentiles there too. He was martyred there as well. You can visit his tomb there, but that's not the focus of my post.

Frankly, your post has too much for me to dispute this late at night. Which brings me to the crux of my post ...

What branch or denomination of Christianity do you belong?
When did it start?
Who founded it?
From where did you get your theology?

Quite frankly, I can think of any major denomination that believes this. Not the Catholic Church, 33AD; Lutheran, 1517; Church of England, 1534; Presbyterian, 1560; Baptist, 1605; Methodist, 1744; and LDS, 1829.

NONE of them teach that Paul taught that had one message for the Gentiles and the apostles had a DIFFERENT messages for the Jews. The NT is for the entire world. All 27 books.

Final question -

Out of curiosity. What is your affiliation to Baylor?

---

Believes what? That Salvation is by grace through faith alone? Most Protestant Churches in America. You are worried about which Denomination I belong to rather than what the Word of God actually says. Refute what I say Scripturally, because I adhere to the Word of God, not a Denomination.

Many of them may not REALIZE that's what they see in Scripture and believe and why but they believe that nonetheless because they see it in Scripture. The Catholic Church didn't start in AD 33, it started with Constantine and he mixed Paganism with Christianity, which is why you have idol worship intertiwined in the Catholic Church. Praying to Mary, the Sacred Heart, The vain Repetitions, trusting Sacraments and Good Works as part of your Salvation rather than the Finished Work of Jesus Christ on the Cross. Adding to it is like saying that the Cross wasn't good enough, we need to add something to it.

The Law=Good Works

Ga 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

(KJV)

Not trying to be harsh, but it's true and needs to be said. The Focus of our Salvation is Jesus Christ and His Sacrifice on the Cross so that He gets the glory not us. No one will boast before God that they made it to heaven because of their good works:

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. KJV


Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Tit 3:5 not by works done in righteousness, which we did ourselves, but according to his mercy he saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, ASV

Frodo: "It was Jesus Christ who called Paul into His Ministry on the road to Damascus. It was Jesus Christ who taught Paul His Doctrine"

Your first sentence is true, your second is not.

Scripture is plain on this, but you will not hear anything but your own pride.

You would do well to contemplate Christ's own example:

Matthew 3:13-16

"Then Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to be baptized by John. But John tried to deter him, saying, "I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?"


"Jesus replied, "Let it be so now; it is proper for us to do this to fulfill all righteousness." Then John consented.


"As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him. And a voice from heaven said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased."

This passage demonstrates the value of Baptism, to such degree that even Christ - Who of course was never in need of Salvation - made sure to be baptised.

See also that there are specific and particular blessings attached to Baptism.

Again, this is from the Gospel accounts.

Oldbear83 said:

---

Paul himself warned against what you teach, Frodo:

1 Corinthians 1:12-13:

"Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?"

---

No, Paul taught against what YOU teach:

Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

(KJV)

Ga 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

(KJV)

Ga 5:2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.

. Ga 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

Ga 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

The Gospel that we are to obey at this time is Salvation by Grace through Faith alone without Works, believing that Jesus died and rose again, shedding His blood as a Sacrifice for our sins.

Oldbear83 said:

---

Frodo: "It was Jesus Christ who called Paul into His Ministry on the road to Damascus. It was Jesus Christ who taught Paul His Doctrine"

Your first sentence is true, your second is not.

Scripture is plain on this, but you will not hear anything but your own pride.

---

So, then you are saying that Paul is lying? Paul was taught his Doctrine by Revelation of Jesus Christ:

Ga 1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

Eph 3:3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery;

Yes Scripture IS plain, isn't it?

Ga 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

THAT Gospel which I preach among the Gentiles: Paul's Message was different and to the Gentiles:

Ga 2:2 And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, lest by any means I should run, or had run, in vain

Jesus Message and Ministry was to the Jews under Law. Jesus told the 12 at that time not to go to the Gentiles but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel:

Mt 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Mt 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

The Message to Israel was Repent and Be Baptized and believe on your Messiah, Jesus. But then water Baptism was a symbol of the Holy Spirit Baptism that would soon come:


Mt 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
Lu 3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:
(KJV)

Pau's Gospel to the Gentiles and Jews of today under Grace is:



Is that Paul's Message to the Gentiles?

Ga 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Ro 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame."

13 For "whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved."

What is Paul's Gospel of Grace:

1Co 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand,
2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you--unless you believed in vain.
3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,
4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures,
5 and that He was seen by Cephas, then by the twelve.
6 After that He was seen by over five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain to the present, but some have fallen asleep.
7 After that He was seen by James, then by all the apostles.
8 Then last of all He was seen by me also, as by one born out of due time.

It is the Gospel that saves, not Baptism, not good deeds:

Ro 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

(KJV)

1Co 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. {words: or, speech}

Regarding whether Salvation can be lost, here are the word of Christ:

Matthew 5:13

"You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled underfoot."

Matthew 5:18-19
Mark 9:50


" For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

Matthew 7:16-17

"By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit."

Still want to claim works are not commanded by Christ?

Mark 12:28-34

"One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, "Of all the commandments, which is the most important?"


"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.' The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no commandment greater than these."

"Well said, teacher," the man replied. "You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but him. To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices."


"When Jesus saw that he had answered wisely, he said to him, "You are not far from the kingdom of God." And from then on no one dared ask him any more questions."

This matters because while you are right that tradition is of little value, what we do and how we act reveals whether we are of God or not.

Shall I continue?

You worship Paul because you imagine him to be Christ in everything he says. I count Paul as a Christian but worship Christ and no man.

One of us will be dismayed when the truth is revealed.

Oldbear83 said:

---

You would do well to contemplate Christ's own example:

Matthew 3:13-16

"Then Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to be baptized by John. But John tried to deter him, saying, "I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?"


"Jesus replied, "Let it be so now; it is proper for us to do this to fulfill all righteousness." Then John consented.


"As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him. And a voice from heaven said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased."

This passage demonstrates the value of Baptism, to such degree that even Christ - Who of course was never in need of Salvation - made sure to be baptised.

See also that there are specific and particular blessings attached to Baptism.

Again, this is from the Gospel accounts.

---

Water Baptism at that time changed into the Holy Spirit Baptism:

Mt 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

Lu 3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:

Joh 1:33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.

(KJV)

The Holy Spirit Baptizes the believer unto Salvation, by one what? (Spirit)

1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. {Gentiles: Gr. Greeks}

Eph 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

Oldbear83 said:

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You worship Paul because you imagine him to be Christ in everything he says. I count Paul as a Christian but worship Christ and no man.

One of us will be dismayed when the truth is revealed.

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I don't worship Paul, I worship Jesus Christ who sent Paul and gave Paul his message that I believe. The problem is that you don't believe the message that Christ gave to Paul. You only want to focus on the message that our Lord Jesus gave to the Jews who were still under the Law. That is your err. That message wasn't given to you. Just like God gave Noah a message to build an Ark, should you build an ark? Just like God gave Moses a message to Sacrifice animals for their sins. Should you sacrifice animals for your sins? Or is Christ's perfect Sacrifice good enough for all now that it's completed? God dealt with man differently at different times.

They are called Dispensations. Dispensation means to Dispense. It's a Mode of Operation. We are currently in the Dispensation of Grace:

Eph 3:2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

Matthew 16:23

Oldbear83 said:

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Regarding whether Salvation can be lost, here are the word of Christ:

Matthew 5:13

"You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled underfoot."

Matthew 5:18-19
Mark 9:50


" For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

Matthew 7:16-17

"By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit."

Still want to claim works are not commanded by Christ?

Mark 12:28-34

"One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, "Of all the commandments, which is the most important?"


"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.' The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no commandment greater than these."

"Well said, teacher," the man replied. "You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but him. To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices."


"When Jesus saw that he had answered wisely, he said to him, "You are not far from the kingdom of God." And from then on no one dared ask him any more questions."

This matters because while you are right that tradition is of little value, what we do and how we act reveals whether we are of God or not.

Shall I continue?

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I don't recall bringing this topic up to you at this time. You have to be saved in the first place to lose it, but under Grace, I don't believe it can be lost because it's not by OUR merit that we are saved in the first place, it's because of Christ's merits. NONE of those verses say that a man can lose his salvation.

Jesus says NONE of his sheep will perish and no man is able to pluck them out of His hand, that includes ourselves:

Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

We aren't saved by good works and we aren't kept by our good works, it's only by Faith.

I have not followed this thread closely. But is it really the position of some here that works and water baptism are requirements for salvation? So, for example, if someone hears the gospel and believes it with all his heart, and asks Jesus to save him and then puts his trust in Jesus, but then immediately dies right after, before he can do a single work or get baptized.....then he is NOT saved?

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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I have not followed this thread closely. But is it really the position of some here that works and water baptism are requirements for salvation? So, for example, if someone hears the gospel and believes it with all his heart, and asks Jesus to save him and then puts his trust in Jesus, but then immediately dies right after, before he can do a single work or get baptized.....then he is NOT saved?

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That is their position, but it's not Biblical. Remember the Thief on the cross turned to Jesus and asked Him to remember him when He comes into His Kingdom? What was Jesus response? Sorry, too late you can't be Baptize? or this:

Lu 23:39 Then one of the criminals who were hanged blasphemed Him, saying, "If You are the Christ, save Yourself and us."
40 But the other, answering, rebuked him, saying, "Do you not even fear God, seeing you are under the same condemnation?
41 "And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this Man has done nothing wrong."
42 Then he said to Jesus, "Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom."
43 And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise."

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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I have not followed this thread closely. But is it really the position of some here that works and water baptism are requirements for salvation? So, for example, if someone hears the gospel and believes it with all his heart, and asks Jesus to save him and then puts his trust in Jesus, but then immediately dies right after, before he can do a single work or get baptized.....then he is NOT saved?

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The problem is assuming that professing a faith in Christ but never acting on it will result in Heaven.

When you accepted Christ as your Savior, you did not immediately die, right?

The scenario you describe applies to very few people, and none of us here.

There are many verses in Scripture, where Christ gives specific commands to do things.

He also clearly warned that some would fall away. Jesus said many times, that if we are His servants we will do His work.

Faith is the essential power, yes, except that Salvation is always of the Lord, and just as no man can do any work to effect his own Salvation, so too can no one change God's mind by their belief.

By their fruit you shall know them, remember?

Oldbear83 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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I have not followed this thread closely. But is it really the position of some here that works and water baptism are requirements for salvation? So, for example, if someone hears the gospel and believes it with all his heart, and asks Jesus to save him and then puts his trust in Jesus, but then immediately dies right after, before he can do a single work or get baptized.....then he is NOT saved?

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The problem is assuming that professing a faith in Christ but never acting on it will result in Heaven.

When you accepted Christ as your Savior, you did not immediately die, right?

The scenario you describe applies to very few people, and none of us here.

There are many verses in Scripture, where Christ gives specific commands to do things.

He also clearly warned that some would fall away. Jesus said many times, that if we are His servants we will do His work.

Faith is the essential power, yes, except that Salvation is always of the Lord, and just as no man can do any work to effect his own Salvation, so too can no one change God's mind by their belief.

By their fruit you shall know them, remember?

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That's all well and good, but you didn't answer the question. Is that person saved, or not?