Fre3dombear said:

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I've already pointed you to a / the verse proving my point

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I've proved my point with the verses that I posted.

xfrodobagginsx said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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I've already pointed you to a / the verse proving my point

---

I've proved my point with the verses that I posted.

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Wishing you all the best.

My trust is in Christ and what HE did for me on the Cross to pay for my sins, that He died and rose again. Good works do not save. The Bible says that if Righteousness comes by the Law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Fre3dombear said:

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xfrodobagginsx said:

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Fre3dombear said:

---

I've already pointed you to a / the verse proving my point

---

I've proved my point with the verses that I posted.

---

Wishing you all the best.

---

I think I may see the disagreement. Please confirm if I have this right or correct what I am missing, please:

XFrodo contends, per Scripture, that our Salvation is accomplished and possible solely through the sacrifice of our Lord Jesus Christ. He points to Scripture which plainly says we are not to be proud of our works as meritorious, but humbly thank God for His Grace and our Salvation. He notes that Jesus praised faith and trust in Him, such as the Good Centurion and the Thief on the Cross.

Freedombear contends, and also with Scripture, that we are commanded to perform good works, and the absence of such works would prove our faith to be false. He notes that Jesus promised that his 'brothers and sisters' are those who do HIs Father's will.

I do not personally see a conflict between these two positions. There is plainly no way I can do any act which would forgive my sins against others. Even if I could go to everyone I ever hurt or wronged, and like Zaccheus provide recompense and apology, the fact of my initial offense would remain. Only God has the power to erase sin, and that by the prescribed atonement paid by Christ.

Yet if I am a Christian, how should I continue to do those things which hurt people, or do and say things I know are offensive to my Master? I, like so many, wrestle with my old self, but there are things I did before that I do not do now, and things I did not do before which I do now in love of my Lord and my neighbor. I meditate and pray each day, in praise of God but also in inspection of my choices and behavior, so that today I may be better than the day before.

It is in some ways like the musician who learns his instrument better, so that the professional musician may accomplish results the novice may not. It is like the lawyer who studies the law in depth, so that his service to his clients will be better than it was when he first started., The Christian is not perfect, not at all, but dedication and love of God will reflect in the works of that believer.

Oldbear83 said:

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Fre3dombear said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

I've already pointed you to a / the verse proving my point

---

I've proved my point with the verses that I posted.

---

Wishing you all the best.

---

I think I may see the disagreement. Please confirm if I have this right or correct what I am missing, please:

XFrodo contends, per Scripture, that our Salvation is accomplished and possible solely through the sacrifice of our Lord Jesus Christ. He points to Scripture which plainly says we are not to be proud of our works as meritorious, but humbly thank God for His Grace and our Salvation. He notes that Jesus praised faith and trust in Him, such as the Good Centurion and the Thief on the Cross.

Freedombear contends, and also with Scripture, that we are commanded to perform good works, and the absence of such works would prove our faith to be false. He notes that Jesus promised that his 'brothers and sisters' are those who do HIs Father's will.

I do not personally see a conflict between these two positions. There is plainly no way I can do any act which would forgive my sins against others. Even if I could go to everyone I ever hurt or wronged, and like Zaccheus provide recompense and apology, the fact of my initial offense would remain. Only God has the power to erase sin, and that by the prescribed atonement paid by Christ.

Yet if I am a Christian, how should I continue to do those things which hurt people, or do and say things I know are offensive to my Master? I, like so many, wrestle with my old self, but there are things I did before that I do not do now, and things I did not do before which I do now in love of my Lord and my neighbor. I meditate and pray each day, in praise of God but also in inspection of my choices and behavior, so that today I may be better than the day before.

It is in some ways like the musician who learns his instrument better, so that the professional musician may accomplish results the novice may not. It is like the lawyer who studies the law in depth, so that his service to his clients will be better than it was when he first started., The Christian is not perfect, not at all, but dedication and love of God will reflect in the works of that believer.

---

I think you nailed it but, it is for the two of them to speak to their own parts.

I am a Christian and will do good works because I am a Christian. The good works do not provide my salvation but are an indicator of my salvation. Where there is no indicator, there is no faith. ( we don't see the heart so we don't see all the indicators. God does, however )

LIB,MR BEARS said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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Fre3dombear said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

I've already pointed you to a / the verse proving my point

---

I've proved my point with the verses that I posted.

---

Wishing you all the best.

---

I think I may see the disagreement. Please confirm if I have this right or correct what I am missing, please:

XFrodo contends, per Scripture, that our Salvation is accomplished and possible solely through the sacrifice of our Lord Jesus Christ. He points to Scripture which plainly says we are not to be proud of our works as meritorious, but humbly thank God for His Grace and our Salvation. He notes that Jesus praised faith and trust in Him, such as the Good Centurion and the Thief on the Cross.

Freedombear contends, and also with Scripture, that we are commanded to perform good works, and the absence of such works would prove our faith to be false. He notes that Jesus promised that his 'brothers and sisters' are those who do HIs Father's will.

I do not personally see a conflict between these two positions. There is plainly no way I can do any act which would forgive my sins against others. Even if I could go to everyone I ever hurt or wronged, and like Zaccheus provide recompense and apology, the fact of my initial offense would remain. Only God has the power to erase sin, and that by the prescribed atonement paid by Christ.

Yet if I am a Christian, how should I continue to do those things which hurt people, or do and say things I know are offensive to my Master? I, like so many, wrestle with my old self, but there are things I did before that I do not do now, and things I did not do before which I do now in love of my Lord and my neighbor. I meditate and pray each day, in praise of God but also in inspection of my choices and behavior, so that today I may be better than the day before.

It is in some ways like the musician who learns his instrument better, so that the professional musician may accomplish results the novice may not. It is like the lawyer who studies the law in depth, so that his service to his clients will be better than it was when he first started., The Christian is not perfect, not at all, but dedication and love of God will reflect in the works of that believer.

---

I think you nailed it but, it is for the two of them to speak to their own parts.

I am a Christian and will do good works because I am a Christian. The good works do not provide my salvation but are an indicator of my salvation. Where there is no indicator, there is no faith. ( we don't see the heart so we don't see all the indicators. God does, however )

---

Well said.

Faith, without works is dead.

If I need faith in my belief that Jesus is the only way to the Father, then I don't want to present with a dead faith, hence works are required.

Sim works get you into Heaven? No. Does faith alone? No.

LIB,MR BEARS said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Faith, without works is dead.

If I need faith in my believe that Jesus is the only way to the Father then I don't want to president with a dead faith, hence works are required.

Sim works get you into Heaven? No. Does faith alone? No.

---

Is there such a thing as a death-bed conversion?

Did the thief on the cross have "works"?

Since the thief on the cross is in heaven, we don't need works as most would define works.

The thief on the cross had no works and yet his story is a big part of the gospel story.

The bubbles don't make the water boil but water without the bubbles it isn't boiling.

I believe the works and the bubbles are indicators - very accurate indicators.

(a simple junior high science experiment will show my analogy isn't perfect-I know that)

---

Did he not perform works? He did suffer on the cross and rebuked the other prisoner?

I am NOT arguing that his works were salvific. I'm just saying that works were performed.

Just to have fun and to bring a Catholic perspective, the only things needed for salvation are:

1) Repent
2) Believe
3) Be baptized.

Coke Bear said:

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LIB,MR BEARS said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Faith, without works is dead.

If I need faith in my believe that Jesus is the only way to the Father then I don't want to president with a dead faith, hence works are required.

Sim works get you into Heaven? No. Does faith alone? No.

---

Is there such a thing as a death-bed conversion?

Did the thief on the cross have "works"?

Since the thief on the cross is in heaven, we don't need works as most would define works.

The thief on the cross had no works and yet his story is a big part of the gospel story.

The bubbles don't make the water boil but water without the bubbles it isn't boiling.

I believe the works and the bubbles are indicators - very accurate indicators.

(a simple junior high science experiment will show my analogy isn't perfect-I know that)

---

Did he not perform works? He did suffer on the cross and rebuked the other prisoner?

I am NOT arguing that his works were salvific. I'm just saying that works were performed.

Just to have fun and to bring a Catholic perspective, the only things needed for salvation are:

1) Repent
2) Believe
3) Be baptized.

---

I haven't looked at the thief's actions in that way before.

"Do you not fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? And we indeed justly, for we are receiving the due reward of our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong" (Luke 23:3941).

Anyone else that made a similar statement to a non-believer would have said of them, "they are performing works."

Now, what of death-bed conversions?

LIB,MR BEARS said:

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Coke Bear said:

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LIB,MR BEARS said:

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Fre3dombear said:

---

Faith, without works is dead.

If I need faith in my believe that Jesus is the only way to the Father then I don't want to president with a dead faith, hence works are required.

Sim works get you into Heaven? No. Does faith alone? No.

---

Is there such a thing as a death-bed conversion?

Did the thief on the cross have "works"?

Since the thief on the cross is in heaven, we don't need works as most would define works.

The thief on the cross had no works and yet his story is a big part of the gospel story.

The bubbles don't make the water boil but water without the bubbles it isn't boiling.

I believe the works and the bubbles are indicators - very accurate indicators.

(a simple junior high science experiment will show my analogy isn't perfect-I know that)

---

Did he not perform works? He did suffer on the cross and rebuked the other prisoner?

I am NOT arguing that his works were salvific. I'm just saying that works were performed.

Just to have fun and to bring a Catholic perspective, the only things needed for salvation are:

1) Repent
2) Believe
3) Be baptized.

---

I haven't looked at the thief's actions in that way before.

"Do you not fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? And we indeed justly, for we are receiving the due reward of our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong" (Luke 23:3941).

Anyone else that made a similar statement to a non-believer would have said of them, "they are performing works."

Now, what of death-bed conversions?

---

Tricky, because only God really knows if the conversion is sincere repentance of sin or a panicked recognition of what is coming.

Oldbear83 said:

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Tricky, because only God really knows if the conversion is sincere repentance of sin or a panicked recognition of what is coming.

---

Either way, it's contrition.

The contrition is either perfect or imperfect.

Perfect contrition is repentance because were are sad that we offended God. Imperfect contrition is repentance because we're scared of repercussions. One could make a justifiable case for being pro-death penalty in saying that it does bring the convicted person to the fact that they have limited time left to make amends. Their body won't be saved, but maybe their soul can be.

I agree with you about God really knows. We don't know what goes thru the mind of each person before they die. I've heard of suicide bridge jumpers that repented just before hitting the water and surviving. They did truly repent and led changed lives.

So with respect to death-bed conversions, I believe that God is merciful.

Some famous Catholic deathbed conversions:

Charles II of England
Oscar Wilde
Buffalo Bill
Doc Holiday
John Wayne
Charles Darwin (rumored)
George Washington (rumored)

LIB,MR BEARS said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Faith, without works is dead.

If I need faith in my believe that Jesus is the only way to the Father then I don't want to president with a dead faith, hence works are required.

Sim works get you into Heaven? No. Does faith alone? No.

---

Is there such a thing as a death-bed conversion?

Did the thief on the cross have "works"?

Since the thief on the cross is in heaven, we don't need works as most would define works.

The thief on the cross had no works and yet his story is a big part of the gospel story.

The bubbles don't make the water boil but water without the bubbles it isn't boiling.

I believe the works and the bubbles are indicators - very accurate indicators.

(a simple junior high science experiment will show my analogy isn't perfect-I know that)

---

How would we know he had no works? Maybe his greatest work was swallowing his pride when there was zero time left and admitting he was wrong to be a story for millennia.

Fre3dombear said:

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LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Faith, without works is dead.

If I need faith in my believe that Jesus is the only way to the Father then I don't want to president with a dead faith, hence works are required.

Sim works get you into Heaven? No. Does faith alone? No.

---

Is there such a thing as a death-bed conversion?

Did the thief on the cross have "works"?

Since the thief on the cross is in heaven, we don't need works as most would define works.

The thief on the cross had no works and yet his story is a big part of the gospel story.

The bubbles don't make the water boil but water without the bubbles it isn't boiling.

I believe the works and the bubbles are indicators - very accurate indicators.

(a simple junior high science experiment will show my analogy isn't perfect-I know that)

---

How would we know he had no works? Maybe his greatest work was swallowing his pride when there was zero time left and admitting he was wrong to be a story for millennia.

---

Keep reading. I have a retraction

"If I need faith in my believe that Jesus is the only way to the Father then I don't want to president with a dead faith, hence works are required."

I'm sorry, I honestly don't understand the "president with a dead faith" line, what does that mean, please?

Oldbear83 said:

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"If I need faith in my believe that Jesus is the only way to the Father then I don't want to president with a dead faith, hence works are required."

I'm sorry, I honestly don't understand the "president with a dead faith" line, what does that mean, please?

---

Typos

If I need faith in my belief that Jesus is the only way to the Father, then I don't want to present with a dead faith, hence works are required.

^^^was building on the understanding that faith without works….

Fre3dombear said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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"If I need faith in my believe that Jesus is the only way to the Father then I don't want to president with a dead faith, hence works are required."

I'm sorry, I honestly don't understand the "president with a dead faith" line, what does that mean, please?

---

Typos

If I need faith in my belief that Jesus is the only way to the Father, then I don't want to present with a dead faith, hence works are required.

^^^was building on the understanding that faith without works….

---

So are you arguing that your works can mean anything?

Faith (Our choice to believe and trust in God) activates God's Grace (God's Work of Salvation)

Ro 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
(KJV)

Oldbear83 said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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"If I need faith in my believe that Jesus is the only way to the Father then I don't want to president with a dead faith, hence works are required."

I'm sorry, I honestly don't understand the "president with a dead faith" line, what does that mean, please?

---

Typos

If I need faith in my belief that Jesus is the only way to the Father, then I don't want to present with a dead faith, hence works are required.

^^^was building on the understanding that faith without works….

---

So are you arguing that your works can mean anything?

---

Freedombear?

Oldbear83 said:

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Fre3dombear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

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"If I need faith in my believe that Jesus is the only way to the Father then I don't want to president with a dead faith, hence works are required."

I'm sorry, I honestly don't understand the "president with a dead faith" line, what does that mean, please?

---

Typos

If I need faith in my belief that Jesus is the only way to the Father, then I don't want to present with a dead faith, hence works are required.

^^^was building on the understanding that faith without works….

---

So are you arguing that your works can mean anything?

---

Yes. Without a doubt. No works and only faith would obviously be a problem. It's clearly stated

As another example where the notion of once saved always saved falls short;


Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Maybe all the prior posts is more splitting hairs but it seems some posts are suggesting that all that is required is to believe / have faith

Fre3dombear said:

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Oldbear83 said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

"If I need faith in my believe that Jesus is the only way to the Father then I don't want to president with a dead faith, hence works are required."

I'm sorry, I honestly don't understand the "president with a dead faith" line, what does that mean, please?

---

Typos

If I need faith in my belief that Jesus is the only way to the Father, then I don't want to present with a dead faith, hence works are required.

^^^was building on the understanding that faith without works….

---

So are you arguing that your works can mean anything?

---

Yes. Without a doubt. No works and only faith would obviously be a problem. It's clearly stated

As another example where the notion of once saved always saved falls short;


Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Maybe all the prior posts is more splitting hairs but it seems some posts are suggesting that all that is required is to believe / have faith

---

I think you are missing the point.

Look at your works. Which, do you think, is the most valuable to God? Which of them made Him decide you should go to Heaven, do you think?

Now before we go on, I will also say that Faith is not something that has merit in the way so many think.

For now, consider the verse: "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy".

Oldbear83 said:

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Fre3dombear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

"If I need faith in my believe that Jesus is the only way to the Father then I don't want to president with a dead faith, hence works are required."

I'm sorry, I honestly don't understand the "president with a dead faith" line, what does that mean, please?

---

Typos

If I need faith in my belief that Jesus is the only way to the Father, then I don't want to present with a dead faith, hence works are required.

^^^was building on the understanding that faith without works….

---

So are you arguing that your works can mean anything?

---

Yes. Without a doubt. No works and only faith would obviously be a problem. It's clearly stated

As another example where the notion of once saved always saved falls short;


Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Maybe all the prior posts is more splitting hairs but it seems some posts are suggesting that all that is required is to believe / have faith

---

I think you are missing the point.

Look at your works. Which, do you think, is the most valuable to God? Which of them made Him decide you should go to Heaven, do you think?

Now before we go on, I will also say that Faith is not something that has merit in the way so many think.

For now, consider the verse: "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy".

---

Yes of course. I will not Argue which works are sufficient or better, if any. Only that it is clear that faith without works is dead. We can "lose" our salvation through bad works or not doing God's will.

So yes, as you stated, and I agree, I'm not arguing which good works or how many. Only that something more than zero per the writings of God is required.

Fre3dombear said:

---

Faith, without works is dead.

If I need faith in my belief that Jesus is the only way to the Father, then I don't want to present with a dead faith, hence works are required.

Sim works get you into Heaven? No. Does faith alone? No.

---

We are saved by God's Grace (God's Work) Through Faith (Believing and Trusting God). As the Result of Salvation by Grace though Faith, we do good deeds, NOT so that we can be saved, BUT because we are already Saved. Good Works are the RESULT of Salvation, NEVER the cause. Christ on the Cross, His Death and Resurrection is the cause of our Salvation and God extending His Grace on Us is the Cause. God responds with His Grace when He sees our Faith in Him. Yes Faith alone Saves. Works are the result of Faith.

Fre3dombear said:

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Oldbear83 said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

"If I need faith in my believe that Jesus is the only way to the Father then I don't want to president with a dead faith, hence works are required."

I'm sorry, I honestly don't understand the "president with a dead faith" line, what does that mean, please?

---

Typos

If I need faith in my belief that Jesus is the only way to the Father, then I don't want to present with a dead faith, hence works are required.

^^^was building on the understanding that faith without works….

---

So are you arguing that your works can mean anything?

---

Yes. Without a doubt. No works and only faith would obviously be a problem. It's clearly stated

As another example where the notion of once saved always saved falls short;


Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Maybe all the prior posts is more splitting hairs but it seems some posts are suggesting that all that is required is to believe / have faith

---

I think you are missing the point.

Look at your works. Which, do you think, is the most valuable to God? Which of them made Him decide you should go to Heaven, do you think?

Now before we go on, I will also say that Faith is not something that has merit in the way so many think.

For now, consider the verse: "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy".

---

Yes of course. I will not Argue which works are sufficient or better, if any. Only that it is clear that faith without works is dead. We can "lose" our salvation through bad works or not doing God's will.

So yes, as you stated, and I agree, I'm not arguing which good works or how many. Only that something more than zero per the writings of God is required.

---

A true Christian cannot lose their Salvation, but they can fall out of fellowship with the Lord and Lose His Peace.

Fre3dombear said:

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Oldbear83 said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

"If I need faith in my believe that Jesus is the only way to the Father then I don't want to president with a dead faith, hence works are required."

I'm sorry, I honestly don't understand the "president with a dead faith" line, what does that mean, please?

---

Typos

If I need faith in my belief that Jesus is the only way to the Father, then I don't want to present with a dead faith, hence works are required.

^^^was building on the understanding that faith without works….

---

So are you arguing that your works can mean anything?

---

Yes. Without a doubt. No works and only faith would obviously be a problem. It's clearly stated

As another example where the notion of once saved always saved falls short;


Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Maybe all the prior posts is more splitting hairs but it seems some posts are suggesting that all that is required is to believe / have faith

---

I think you are missing the point.

Look at your works. Which, do you think, is the most valuable to God? Which of them made Him decide you should go to Heaven, do you think?

Now before we go on, I will also say that Faith is not something that has merit in the way so many think.

For now, consider the verse: "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy".

---

Yes of course. I will not Argue which works are sufficient or better, if any. Only that it is clear that faith without works is dead. We can "lose" our salvation through bad works or not doing God's will.

So yes, as you stated, and I agree, I'm not arguing which good works or how many. Only that something more than zero per the writings of God is required.

---

I think you have let yourself belief things not actually said in Scripture.

Nothing we can do will merit entry into Heaven.

And Frodo, I saw your reference to a "true Christian", which is also non-Scriptural.

Many will be dismayed on the Day they stand before Christ, precisely because they believe they are "true" Christians.

It is vital for each of us to be very careful to inspect our hearts and ask God to search us, not for punishment nor even for Judgment, but just as family works to protect each other from falling or making terrible mistakes, so we as Christ's brothers and sisters should care for one another, not in judgment or grading but in earnest searching for truth and wisdom from the Holy Spirit.

Nothing we do can get us there but doing nothing can get us not there

We can also lose our salvation. All written clearly in the sacred texts

Fre3dombear said:

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Nothing we do can get us there but doing nothing can get us not there

We can also lose our salvation. All written clearly in the sacred texts

---

Yes, we can lose what is given us.

But that depends on heart, not some scorecard.

Fre3dombear said:

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Nothing we do can get us there but doing nothing can get us not there

We can also lose our salvation. All written clearly in the sacred texts

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The Bible says that FAITH in Christ and His Death and Resurrection gets us there.

So what happens to all the Asians, Indians, Arabs, Jews, Americans and European non believers?

xfrodobagginsx said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Nothing we do can get us there but doing nothing can get us not there

We can also lose our salvation. All written clearly in the sacred texts

---

The Bible says that FAITH in Christ and His Death and Resurrection gets us there.

---

Duh

No "works" or deeds so to speak. That's what we're discussing. Thanks for keeping up

Aliceinbubbleland said:

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So what happens to all the Asians, Indians, Arabs, Jews, Americans and European non believers?

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Per the Bible, if they don't believe in Kesus and confess him as their savior and other things, tough noogies

Aliceinbubbleland said:

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So what happens to all the Asians, Indians, Arabs, Jews, Americans and European non believers?

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"Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil."

It has nothing to do with where a person is born or raised. We are all condemned, already.

Fre3dombear said:

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Aliceinbubbleland said:

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So what happens to all the Asians, Indians, Arabs, Jews, Americans and European non believers?

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Per the Bible, if they don't believe in Kesus and confess him as their savior and other things, tough noogies

---

The root for "noogies" is neither Latin, Greek nor Hebrew.

Do not add to nor take away from...

xfrodobagginsx said:

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A true Christian cannot lose their Salvation, but they can fall out of fellowship with the Lord and Lose His Peace.

---

What does this (bolded print) mean?

How does one KNOW that they are a true Christian?

Finally, in Galatian 5:4, St. Paul states to the new Christians, "You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the Law; you have fallen away from grace." So if they were severed from Christ, they have obviously were WITH Christ (saved) but they lost salvation.

Fortunately, the Catholic church gives us a way to restore our friendship with Him thru the sacrament of Reconciliation.

Aliceinbubbleland said:

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So what happens to all the Asians, Indians, Arabs, Jews, Americans and European non believers?

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Unless the somehow voted for Trump they are doomed