The first part (bolded) is correct. No one is denying it, either.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:True faith leads to obedience to Jesus and good works. False faith doesn't. It's true faith that saves, not the works. Obedience and works are the indicators of true faith.Oldbear83 said:
Frodo: 'You like to falsely accuse those whom you disagree with"
You keep falsely claiming that. It looks a lot like denial from where I sit, especially since you have not once addressed the main point I have made.
I expect it is a problem for you, since I have shown Scripture that does not fit your position.
For example, Christ Himself deemed it necessary to be baptized. Why?
Christ Himself baptized people, and so did his disciples. Why?
If you go back to the first page, you will see that we are all in agreement that faith in Christ is necessary through that faith we are granted redemption through Christ.
But Jesus also warned that 'salt may lose its saltiness', and that if we are his brothers and sisters we will do His will, to the point of warning, as in the wise and foolish virgins, that if we do not act as we should after believing, we may yet find the door shut in our face. I have cited several scriptures on this, and can do more if you still doubt.
The problem then, is what to do after we start in Christ's community. Your example of the thief on the cross is an exception, since there was no way for him to do anything now that he was dying, but that is far from the normal condition for people who come to Christ.
Scripture, and indeed Christ's own example, makes clear that we are to do more than think our Salvation is simply a matter of saying certain words at one moment. Keep in mind that we must become the people we will live as forever, so it matters that we start thinking, speaking and acting as members of Christ's family, in order that we become, more and more, that person God always intended for us to be.
Let's suppose you are correct, that a person can hear the gospel, believe in Jesus, and trust in Him for their salvation......but is NOT YET saved until they do good works and perform water baptism. It is IMPERATIVE then, that you, or the bible, tell us how many good works and acts of obedience is going to save them! I mean, this is very, very important. It's a matter of an eternity in heaven or an eternity in hell!! What is the threshold that Jesus will accept? 100% of the time? 50%? Just 10%? As long as you do more good than bad, i.e. 51% to 49%? I mean, this is very, very important. It's a matter of an eternity in heaven or an eternity in hell!!
If you are insisting that works is required for salvation, then aren't you instituting another form of law-keeping, (i.e. legalism) for salvation?
Then stop lying and saying that I am somehow angry. I'm not, but you must be because you like to accuse me of what you are actually doing. You vote Democrat don't you? Because that is what THEY do.Oldbear83 said:
Frodo: 'You like to falsely accuse those whom you disagree with"
You keep falsely claiming that. It looks a lot like denial from where I sit, especially since you have not once addressed the main point I have made.
I expect it is a problem for you, since I have shown Scripture that does not fit your position.
For example, Christ Himself deemed it necessary to be baptized. Why?
Christ Himself baptized people, and so did his disciples. Why?
If you go back to the first page, you will see that we are all in agreement that faith in Christ is necessary through that faith we are granted redemption through Christ.
But Jesus also warned that 'salt may lose its saltiness', and that if we are his brothers and sisters we will do His will, to the point of warning, as in the wise and foolish virgins, that if we do not act as we should after believing, we may yet find the door shut in our face. I have cited several scriptures on this, and can do more if you still doubt.
The problem then, is what to do after we start in Christ's community. Your example of the thief on the cross is an exception, since there was no way for him to do anything now that he was dying, but that is far from the normal condition for people who come to Christ.
Scripture, and indeed Christ's own example, makes clear that we are to do more than think our Salvation is simply a matter of saying certain words at one moment. Keep in mind that we must become the people we will live as forever, so it matters that we start thinking, speaking and acting as members of Christ's family, in order that we become, more and more, that person God always intended for us to be.
Where did you first here of this concept that Jesus' ministry was a separate message that Paul's? Did you learn it from someone, school, or church?xfrodobagginsx said:
You don't like the fact that Jesus Ministry was to the Jews under the Law, NOT the Gentiles under Grace.
None of your works based Gospel posts come from the Holy Spirit.Oldbear83 said:
That post did not come from the Holy Spirit.
The Bible:Coke Bear said:Where did you first here of this concept that Jesus' ministry was a separate message that Paul's? Did you learn it from someone, school, or church?xfrodobagginsx said:
You don't like the fact that Jesus Ministry was to the Jews under the Law, NOT the Gentiles under Grace.
Where is this first taught in the antiquity of Christianity?
You are avoiding my question. Where did you develop this dualistic theology? Did you really discern this from the Bible all by yourself? Did you learn this from any preacher, school, or church?xfrodobagginsx said:
The Bible:
Mt 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
(KJV)
Mt 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
After Christ's Ascension:
Ga 2:7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;
Paul Writes that Christ was a Minister of the Circumcision (Jews):
Ro 15:8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:
(KJV)
I'm about the only one here actually quoting what Christ said and did, so I'm gonna have to disagree on that claim of yours, Frodo.xfrodobagginsx said:None of your works based Gospel posts come from the Holy Spirit.Oldbear83 said:
That post did not come from the Holy Spirit.
So...you constantly bickered and argued against us for days/weeks/months but you AGREE with what we're saying, that works and water baptism doesn't save??!!Oldbear83 said:The first part (bolded) is correct. No one is denying it, either.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:True faith leads to obedience to Jesus and good works. False faith doesn't. It's true faith that saves, not the works. Obedience and works are the indicators of true faith.Oldbear83 said:
Frodo: 'You like to falsely accuse those whom you disagree with"
You keep falsely claiming that. It looks a lot like denial from where I sit, especially since you have not once addressed the main point I have made.
I expect it is a problem for you, since I have shown Scripture that does not fit your position.
For example, Christ Himself deemed it necessary to be baptized. Why?
Christ Himself baptized people, and so did his disciples. Why?
If you go back to the first page, you will see that we are all in agreement that faith in Christ is necessary through that faith we are granted redemption through Christ.
But Jesus also warned that 'salt may lose its saltiness', and that if we are his brothers and sisters we will do His will, to the point of warning, as in the wise and foolish virgins, that if we do not act as we should after believing, we may yet find the door shut in our face. I have cited several scriptures on this, and can do more if you still doubt.
The problem then, is what to do after we start in Christ's community. Your example of the thief on the cross is an exception, since there was no way for him to do anything now that he was dying, but that is far from the normal condition for people who come to Christ.
Scripture, and indeed Christ's own example, makes clear that we are to do more than think our Salvation is simply a matter of saying certain words at one moment. Keep in mind that we must become the people we will live as forever, so it matters that we start thinking, speaking and acting as members of Christ's family, in order that we become, more and more, that person God always intended for us to be.
Let's suppose you are correct, that a person can hear the gospel, believe in Jesus, and trust in Him for their salvation......but is NOT YET saved until they do good works and perform water baptism. It is IMPERATIVE then, that you, or the bible, tell us how many good works and acts of obedience is going to save them! I mean, this is very, very important. It's a matter of an eternity in heaven or an eternity in hell!! What is the threshold that Jesus will accept? 100% of the time? 50%? Just 10%? As long as you do more good than bad, i.e. 51% to 49%? I mean, this is very, very important. It's a matter of an eternity in heaven or an eternity in hell!!
If you are insisting that works is required for salvation, then aren't you instituting another form of law-keeping, (i.e. legalism) for salvation?
What you are missing, is the fact that some fall away from the faith. The problem I see, comes from assuming that once you are saved, that's all that is needed.
This is why I have such contempt for Lakewood and other churches which treat people as products rather than individuals. Becoming a Christian in life is not unlike recovering from surgery. You have to resist the old temptations, and you have to learn to desire and practice good thinking, speaking and acting. This thread itself demonstrates how difficult it can be for believers to stay in good thinking and good living.
This, I believe, is why Christ made such a point of staying focused on Christ after accepting Christ. Paul even wrote the same warnings.
He is correct in saying that his posts are not angry. You have been projecting that onto him, like you did me. Brother, you aren't in any position to say who's got the Holy Spirit and who doesn't. Your discernment is faulty, as I've explained many times.Oldbear83 said:
That post did not come from the Holy Spirit.
Well, you and Frodo have indeed been rude, bitter and ignored everything I said because you only wanted to win an internet argument.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:So...you constantly bickered and argued against us for days/weeks/months but you AGREE with what we're saying, that works and water baptism doesn't save??!!Oldbear83 said:The first part (bolded) is correct. No one is denying it, either.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:True faith leads to obedience to Jesus and good works. False faith doesn't. It's true faith that saves, not the works. Obedience and works are the indicators of true faith.Oldbear83 said:
Frodo: 'You like to falsely accuse those whom you disagree with"
You keep falsely claiming that. It looks a lot like denial from where I sit, especially since you have not once addressed the main point I have made.
I expect it is a problem for you, since I have shown Scripture that does not fit your position.
For example, Christ Himself deemed it necessary to be baptized. Why?
Christ Himself baptized people, and so did his disciples. Why?
If you go back to the first page, you will see that we are all in agreement that faith in Christ is necessary through that faith we are granted redemption through Christ.
But Jesus also warned that 'salt may lose its saltiness', and that if we are his brothers and sisters we will do His will, to the point of warning, as in the wise and foolish virgins, that if we do not act as we should after believing, we may yet find the door shut in our face. I have cited several scriptures on this, and can do more if you still doubt.
The problem then, is what to do after we start in Christ's community. Your example of the thief on the cross is an exception, since there was no way for him to do anything now that he was dying, but that is far from the normal condition for people who come to Christ.
Scripture, and indeed Christ's own example, makes clear that we are to do more than think our Salvation is simply a matter of saying certain words at one moment. Keep in mind that we must become the people we will live as forever, so it matters that we start thinking, speaking and acting as members of Christ's family, in order that we become, more and more, that person God always intended for us to be.
Let's suppose you are correct, that a person can hear the gospel, believe in Jesus, and trust in Him for their salvation......but is NOT YET saved until they do good works and perform water baptism. It is IMPERATIVE then, that you, or the bible, tell us how many good works and acts of obedience is going to save them! I mean, this is very, very important. It's a matter of an eternity in heaven or an eternity in hell!! What is the threshold that Jesus will accept? 100% of the time? 50%? Just 10%? As long as you do more good than bad, i.e. 51% to 49%? I mean, this is very, very important. It's a matter of an eternity in heaven or an eternity in hell!!
If you are insisting that works is required for salvation, then aren't you instituting another form of law-keeping, (i.e. legalism) for salvation?
What you are missing, is the fact that some fall away from the faith. The problem I see, comes from assuming that once you are saved, that's all that is needed.
This is why I have such contempt for Lakewood and other churches which treat people as products rather than individuals. Becoming a Christian in life is not unlike recovering from surgery. You have to resist the old temptations, and you have to learn to desire and practice good thinking, speaking and acting. This thread itself demonstrates how difficult it can be for believers to stay in good thinking and good living.
This, I believe, is why Christ made such a point of staying focused on Christ after accepting Christ. Paul even wrote the same warnings.
Wow. Just wow.
Is it any wonder you have at least TWO Christians now that have pointed out your dishonesty?
No because this commandment hasn't yet been fulfilled. The Disciples never left Jerusalem for the most part. This will be fulfilled during the Millennial Kingdom of Christ.Coke Bear said:You are avoiding my question. Where did you develop this dualistic theology? Did you really discern this from the Bible all by yourself? Did you learn this from any preacher, school, or church?xfrodobagginsx said:
The Bible:
Mt 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
(KJV)
Mt 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
After Christ's Ascension:
Ga 2:7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;
Paul Writes that Christ was a Minister of the Circumcision (Jews):
Ro 15:8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:
(KJV)
When did this theology first begin?
Also, your theory is in contrast with Matthew 28:19:
19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
You are correct. Also, notice how he also believes he can answer for the Holy Spirit.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:He is correct in saying that his posts are not angry. You have been projecting that onto him, like you did me. Brother, you aren't in any position to say who's got the Holy Spirit and who doesn't. Your discernment is faulty, as I've explained many times.Oldbear83 said:
That post did not come from the Holy Spirit.
xfrodobagginsx said:
No because this commandment hasn't yet been fulfilled. The Disciples never left Jerusalem for the most part. This will be fulfilled during the Millennial Kingdom of Christ.
If by "water baptism is necessary before we are saved" you mean that without water baptism, we are NOT saved, then wouldn't that falsify Jesus' words? If Jesus said, "whoever believes in him will not perish, but have everlasting life", but yet a person who hears the gospel, believes in Jesus, and trusts in Jesus for salvation, but dies before getting water baptized meaning he ends up NOT getting saved - wouldn't this make Jesus wrong? Because here we have a person who died fully believing in Jesus, but DID NOT get saved!saabing bear said:
We are NOT saved by good works of merit. Salvation is free, but it is not forced on us. Baptism is NOT work of merit by which we are saved. It cannot earn anything because it is not something we do for God or anyone else. We submit to it for our own sake.
Salvation is free and baptism is necessary before we are saved.
Here's what's been happening:Oldbear83 said:Well, you and Frodo have indeed been rude, bitter and ignored everything I said because you only wanted to win an internet argument.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:So...you constantly bickered and argued against us for days/weeks/months but you AGREE with what we're saying, that works and water baptism doesn't save??!!Oldbear83 said:The first part (bolded) is correct. No one is denying it, either.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:True faith leads to obedience to Jesus and good works. False faith doesn't. It's true faith that saves, not the works. Obedience and works are the indicators of true faith.Oldbear83 said:
Frodo: 'You like to falsely accuse those whom you disagree with"
You keep falsely claiming that. It looks a lot like denial from where I sit, especially since you have not once addressed the main point I have made.
I expect it is a problem for you, since I have shown Scripture that does not fit your position.
For example, Christ Himself deemed it necessary to be baptized. Why?
Christ Himself baptized people, and so did his disciples. Why?
If you go back to the first page, you will see that we are all in agreement that faith in Christ is necessary through that faith we are granted redemption through Christ.
But Jesus also warned that 'salt may lose its saltiness', and that if we are his brothers and sisters we will do His will, to the point of warning, as in the wise and foolish virgins, that if we do not act as we should after believing, we may yet find the door shut in our face. I have cited several scriptures on this, and can do more if you still doubt.
The problem then, is what to do after we start in Christ's community. Your example of the thief on the cross is an exception, since there was no way for him to do anything now that he was dying, but that is far from the normal condition for people who come to Christ.
Scripture, and indeed Christ's own example, makes clear that we are to do more than think our Salvation is simply a matter of saying certain words at one moment. Keep in mind that we must become the people we will live as forever, so it matters that we start thinking, speaking and acting as members of Christ's family, in order that we become, more and more, that person God always intended for us to be.
Let's suppose you are correct, that a person can hear the gospel, believe in Jesus, and trust in Him for their salvation......but is NOT YET saved until they do good works and perform water baptism. It is IMPERATIVE then, that you, or the bible, tell us how many good works and acts of obedience is going to save them! I mean, this is very, very important. It's a matter of an eternity in heaven or an eternity in hell!! What is the threshold that Jesus will accept? 100% of the time? 50%? Just 10%? As long as you do more good than bad, i.e. 51% to 49%? I mean, this is very, very important. It's a matter of an eternity in heaven or an eternity in hell!!
If you are insisting that works is required for salvation, then aren't you instituting another form of law-keeping, (i.e. legalism) for salvation?
What you are missing, is the fact that some fall away from the faith. The problem I see, comes from assuming that once you are saved, that's all that is needed.
This is why I have such contempt for Lakewood and other churches which treat people as products rather than individuals. Becoming a Christian in life is not unlike recovering from surgery. You have to resist the old temptations, and you have to learn to desire and practice good thinking, speaking and acting. This thread itself demonstrates how difficult it can be for believers to stay in good thinking and good living.
This, I believe, is why Christ made such a point of staying focused on Christ after accepting Christ. Paul even wrote the same warnings.
Wow. Just wow.
Is it any wonder you have at least TWO Christians now that have pointed out your dishonesty?
You are in no way Christian in that behavior.
I suggest you step back and re-read your posts, not only to me but to other Christians who have posted in this thread, like Coke Bear and Saabing.
The dishonest ones are you two, seeking to feed your pride rather than consider what is posted here.
I dare you to take this thread to your pastor and see what an objective voice tells you.
I agree with you. Exactly. I am also very Politically active and can say that I am very sure that this guy votes for the Democrat Party because Democrats do these very things Politically that this guy is doing in his religious beliefs. It's what Liberals do. They accuse their opponents of doing exactly what THEY themselves actually do. Look at Joe Biden and the Democrats constantly accusing Trump and Republicans of the Treason that the Democrats actually do. Joe Biden does a Quid Pro Quo with Ukraine and Trump gets impeached for a phoney one. It's a tactic to get the attention off them themselves and on to the other guy.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Here's what's been happening:Oldbear83 said:Well, you and Frodo have indeed been rude, bitter and ignored everything I said because you only wanted to win an internet argument.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:So...you constantly bickered and argued against us for days/weeks/months but you AGREE with what we're saying, that works and water baptism doesn't save??!!Oldbear83 said:The first part (bolded) is correct. No one is denying it, either.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:True faith leads to obedience to Jesus and good works. False faith doesn't. It's true faith that saves, not the works. Obedience and works are the indicators of true faith.Oldbear83 said:
Frodo: 'You like to falsely accuse those whom you disagree with"
You keep falsely claiming that. It looks a lot like denial from where I sit, especially since you have not once addressed the main point I have made.
I expect it is a problem for you, since I have shown Scripture that does not fit your position.
For example, Christ Himself deemed it necessary to be baptized. Why?
Christ Himself baptized people, and so did his disciples. Why?
If you go back to the first page, you will see that we are all in agreement that faith in Christ is necessary through that faith we are granted redemption through Christ.
But Jesus also warned that 'salt may lose its saltiness', and that if we are his brothers and sisters we will do His will, to the point of warning, as in the wise and foolish virgins, that if we do not act as we should after believing, we may yet find the door shut in our face. I have cited several scriptures on this, and can do more if you still doubt.
The problem then, is what to do after we start in Christ's community. Your example of the thief on the cross is an exception, since there was no way for him to do anything now that he was dying, but that is far from the normal condition for people who come to Christ.
Scripture, and indeed Christ's own example, makes clear that we are to do more than think our Salvation is simply a matter of saying certain words at one moment. Keep in mind that we must become the people we will live as forever, so it matters that we start thinking, speaking and acting as members of Christ's family, in order that we become, more and more, that person God always intended for us to be.
Let's suppose you are correct, that a person can hear the gospel, believe in Jesus, and trust in Him for their salvation......but is NOT YET saved until they do good works and perform water baptism. It is IMPERATIVE then, that you, or the bible, tell us how many good works and acts of obedience is going to save them! I mean, this is very, very important. It's a matter of an eternity in heaven or an eternity in hell!! What is the threshold that Jesus will accept? 100% of the time? 50%? Just 10%? As long as you do more good than bad, i.e. 51% to 49%? I mean, this is very, very important. It's a matter of an eternity in heaven or an eternity in hell!!
If you are insisting that works is required for salvation, then aren't you instituting another form of law-keeping, (i.e. legalism) for salvation?
What you are missing, is the fact that some fall away from the faith. The problem I see, comes from assuming that once you are saved, that's all that is needed.
This is why I have such contempt for Lakewood and other churches which treat people as products rather than individuals. Becoming a Christian in life is not unlike recovering from surgery. You have to resist the old temptations, and you have to learn to desire and practice good thinking, speaking and acting. This thread itself demonstrates how difficult it can be for believers to stay in good thinking and good living.
This, I believe, is why Christ made such a point of staying focused on Christ after accepting Christ. Paul even wrote the same warnings.
Wow. Just wow.
Is it any wonder you have at least TWO Christians now that have pointed out your dishonesty?
You are in no way Christian in that behavior.
I suggest you step back and re-read your posts, not only to me but to other Christians who have posted in this thread, like Coke Bear and Saabing.
The dishonest ones are you two, seeking to feed your pride rather than consider what is posted here.
I dare you to take this thread to your pastor and see what an objective voice tells you.
You are angry at what we are saying, because maybe it reminds you of something that really angers and bothers you, so you've been taking it out on us.....even though you AGREE with everything we're saying! Which is remarkably odd. So, what you decided to do, was create a strawman to argue and post long diatribes about. No one was "ignoring everything you are saying" - the issue was, your arguments were not answering the relevant question or point. You were off trying to make your OWN point, arguing against the strawman of your creation. I've been arguing that water baptism and works don't save. You've been trying to portray what I'm saying as "water baptism and works are UNIMPORTANT and NOT NEEDED at all".
In doing all this, you've been angry, bitter, preachy, rude, making false arguments that is essentially like lying (like saying a question about what it takes to go to heaven, is IRRELEVANT to a thread entitled "how to get to heaven"), and making false accusations at other Christians. And here's the unbelievable part - you've been PROJECTING your untoward behavior onto us, accusing us of everything that YOU are doing, just so that you can pass off what we are saying as "unchristian", "without the Holy Spirit", and whatever negative you need in order to de-legitimize what we've been saying. It really has been quite remarkable seeing how unaware you are.
I'll admit that some of my posts were rude, but that's because I was answering YOUR rudeness, in addition to your dishonesty, arrogance, and failure in logic. And my responses to Coke Bear and saabing were not rude. You are merely reading into them what you want to see.
Maybe you should also show your pastor your posts. What would you say if I told you a pastor thinks your posts supporting a works-based and water baptism-based gospel are wrong? And also, take this to heart: at least THREE Christians on here think your behavior is untoward, and at least TWO have pointed out your dishonesty! What does the bible say about a brother who is wrong, and then two brothers point it out (Matthew 18:15-17)?
Wow.xfrodobagginsx said:I agree with you. Exactly. I am also very Politically active and can say that I am very sure that this guy votes for the Democrat Party because Democrats do these very things Politically that this guy is doing in his religious beliefs. It's what Liberals do. They accuse their opponents of doing exactly what THEY themselves actually do. Look at Joe Biden and the Democrats constantly accusing Trump and Republicans of the Treason that the Democrats actually do. It's a tactic to get the attention off them themselves and on to the other guy.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Here's what's been happening:Oldbear83 said:Well, you and Frodo have indeed been rude, bitter and ignored everything I said because you only wanted to win an internet argument.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:So...you constantly bickered and argued against us for days/weeks/months but you AGREE with what we're saying, that works and water baptism doesn't save??!!Oldbear83 said:The first part (bolded) is correct. No one is denying it, either.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:True faith leads to obedience to Jesus and good works. False faith doesn't. It's true faith that saves, not the works. Obedience and works are the indicators of true faith.Oldbear83 said:
Frodo: 'You like to falsely accuse those whom you disagree with"
You keep falsely claiming that. It looks a lot like denial from where I sit, especially since you have not once addressed the main point I have made.
I expect it is a problem for you, since I have shown Scripture that does not fit your position.
For example, Christ Himself deemed it necessary to be baptized. Why?
Christ Himself baptized people, and so did his disciples. Why?
If you go back to the first page, you will see that we are all in agreement that faith in Christ is necessary through that faith we are granted redemption through Christ.
But Jesus also warned that 'salt may lose its saltiness', and that if we are his brothers and sisters we will do His will, to the point of warning, as in the wise and foolish virgins, that if we do not act as we should after believing, we may yet find the door shut in our face. I have cited several scriptures on this, and can do more if you still doubt.
The problem then, is what to do after we start in Christ's community. Your example of the thief on the cross is an exception, since there was no way for him to do anything now that he was dying, but that is far from the normal condition for people who come to Christ.
Scripture, and indeed Christ's own example, makes clear that we are to do more than think our Salvation is simply a matter of saying certain words at one moment. Keep in mind that we must become the people we will live as forever, so it matters that we start thinking, speaking and acting as members of Christ's family, in order that we become, more and more, that person God always intended for us to be.
Let's suppose you are correct, that a person can hear the gospel, believe in Jesus, and trust in Him for their salvation......but is NOT YET saved until they do good works and perform water baptism. It is IMPERATIVE then, that you, or the bible, tell us how many good works and acts of obedience is going to save them! I mean, this is very, very important. It's a matter of an eternity in heaven or an eternity in hell!! What is the threshold that Jesus will accept? 100% of the time? 50%? Just 10%? As long as you do more good than bad, i.e. 51% to 49%? I mean, this is very, very important. It's a matter of an eternity in heaven or an eternity in hell!!
If you are insisting that works is required for salvation, then aren't you instituting another form of law-keeping, (i.e. legalism) for salvation?
What you are missing, is the fact that some fall away from the faith. The problem I see, comes from assuming that once you are saved, that's all that is needed.
This is why I have such contempt for Lakewood and other churches which treat people as products rather than individuals. Becoming a Christian in life is not unlike recovering from surgery. You have to resist the old temptations, and you have to learn to desire and practice good thinking, speaking and acting. This thread itself demonstrates how difficult it can be for believers to stay in good thinking and good living.
This, I believe, is why Christ made such a point of staying focused on Christ after accepting Christ. Paul even wrote the same warnings.
Wow. Just wow.
Is it any wonder you have at least TWO Christians now that have pointed out your dishonesty?
You are in no way Christian in that behavior.
I suggest you step back and re-read your posts, not only to me but to other Christians who have posted in this thread, like Coke Bear and Saabing.
The dishonest ones are you two, seeking to feed your pride rather than consider what is posted here.
I dare you to take this thread to your pastor and see what an objective voice tells you.
You are angry at what we are saying, because maybe it reminds you of something that really angers and bothers you, so you've been taking it out on us.....even though you AGREE with everything we're saying! Which is remarkably odd. So, what you decided to do, was create a strawman to argue and post long diatribes about. No one was "ignoring everything you are saying" - the issue was, your arguments were not answering the relevant question or point. You were off trying to make your OWN point, arguing against the strawman of your creation. I've been arguing that water baptism and works don't save. You've been trying to portray what I'm saying as "water baptism and works are UNIMPORTANT and NOT NEEDED at all".
In doing all this, you've been angry, bitter, preachy, rude, making false arguments that is essentially like lying (like saying a question about what it takes to go to heaven, is IRRELEVANT to a thread entitled "how to get to heaven"), and making false accusations at other Christians. And here's the unbelievable part - you've been PROJECTING your untoward behavior onto us, accusing us of everything that YOU are doing, just so that you can pass off what we are saying as "unchristian", "without the Holy Spirit", and whatever negative you need in order to de-legitimize what we've been saying. It really has been quite remarkable seeing how unaware you are.
I'll admit that some of my posts were rude, but that's because I was answering YOUR rudeness, in addition to your dishonesty, arrogance, and failure in logic. And my responses to Coke Bear and saabing were not rude. You are merely reading into them what you want to see.
Maybe you should also show your pastor your posts. What would you say if I told you a pastor thinks your posts supporting a works-based and water baptism-based gospel are wrong? And also, take this to heart: at least THREE Christians on here think your behavior is untoward, and at least TWO have pointed out your dishonesty! What does the bible say about a brother who is wrong, and then two brothers point it out (Matthew 18:15-17)?
No bullying going on. It's just an observation. So then you can honestly say that you are a Red Blooded Trump Supporting Conservative Republican right? Trump 2024. Right? From your last statement, I don't believe you. That is a typical response of a Liberal Democrat to a Conservative Defending himself from a Liberal attack. You need to stop the hate and the bullying.Oldbear83 said:Wow.xfrodobagginsx said:I agree with you. Exactly. I am also very Politically active and can say that I am very sure that this guy votes for the Democrat Party because Democrats do these very things Politically that this guy is doing in his religious beliefs. It's what Liberals do. They accuse their opponents of doing exactly what THEY themselves actually do. Look at Joe Biden and the Democrats constantly accusing Trump and Republicans of the Treason that the Democrats actually do. It's a tactic to get the attention off them themselves and on to the other guy.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Here's what's been happening:Oldbear83 said:Well, you and Frodo have indeed been rude, bitter and ignored everything I said because you only wanted to win an internet argument.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:So...you constantly bickered and argued against us for days/weeks/months but you AGREE with what we're saying, that works and water baptism doesn't save??!!Oldbear83 said:The first part (bolded) is correct. No one is denying it, either.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:True faith leads to obedience to Jesus and good works. False faith doesn't. It's true faith that saves, not the works. Obedience and works are the indicators of true faith.Oldbear83 said:
Frodo: 'You like to falsely accuse those whom you disagree with"
You keep falsely claiming that. It looks a lot like denial from where I sit, especially since you have not once addressed the main point I have made.
I expect it is a problem for you, since I have shown Scripture that does not fit your position.
For example, Christ Himself deemed it necessary to be baptized. Why?
Christ Himself baptized people, and so did his disciples. Why?
If you go back to the first page, you will see that we are all in agreement that faith in Christ is necessary through that faith we are granted redemption through Christ.
But Jesus also warned that 'salt may lose its saltiness', and that if we are his brothers and sisters we will do His will, to the point of warning, as in the wise and foolish virgins, that if we do not act as we should after believing, we may yet find the door shut in our face. I have cited several scriptures on this, and can do more if you still doubt.
The problem then, is what to do after we start in Christ's community. Your example of the thief on the cross is an exception, since there was no way for him to do anything now that he was dying, but that is far from the normal condition for people who come to Christ.
Scripture, and indeed Christ's own example, makes clear that we are to do more than think our Salvation is simply a matter of saying certain words at one moment. Keep in mind that we must become the people we will live as forever, so it matters that we start thinking, speaking and acting as members of Christ's family, in order that we become, more and more, that person God always intended for us to be.
Let's suppose you are correct, that a person can hear the gospel, believe in Jesus, and trust in Him for their salvation......but is NOT YET saved until they do good works and perform water baptism. It is IMPERATIVE then, that you, or the bible, tell us how many good works and acts of obedience is going to save them! I mean, this is very, very important. It's a matter of an eternity in heaven or an eternity in hell!! What is the threshold that Jesus will accept? 100% of the time? 50%? Just 10%? As long as you do more good than bad, i.e. 51% to 49%? I mean, this is very, very important. It's a matter of an eternity in heaven or an eternity in hell!!
If you are insisting that works is required for salvation, then aren't you instituting another form of law-keeping, (i.e. legalism) for salvation?
What you are missing, is the fact that some fall away from the faith. The problem I see, comes from assuming that once you are saved, that's all that is needed.
This is why I have such contempt for Lakewood and other churches which treat people as products rather than individuals. Becoming a Christian in life is not unlike recovering from surgery. You have to resist the old temptations, and you have to learn to desire and practice good thinking, speaking and acting. This thread itself demonstrates how difficult it can be for believers to stay in good thinking and good living.
This, I believe, is why Christ made such a point of staying focused on Christ after accepting Christ. Paul even wrote the same warnings.
Wow. Just wow.
Is it any wonder you have at least TWO Christians now that have pointed out your dishonesty?
You are in no way Christian in that behavior.
I suggest you step back and re-read your posts, not only to me but to other Christians who have posted in this thread, like Coke Bear and Saabing.
The dishonest ones are you two, seeking to feed your pride rather than consider what is posted here.
I dare you to take this thread to your pastor and see what an objective voice tells you.
You are angry at what we are saying, because maybe it reminds you of something that really angers and bothers you, so you've been taking it out on us.....even though you AGREE with everything we're saying! Which is remarkably odd. So, what you decided to do, was create a strawman to argue and post long diatribes about. No one was "ignoring everything you are saying" - the issue was, your arguments were not answering the relevant question or point. You were off trying to make your OWN point, arguing against the strawman of your creation. I've been arguing that water baptism and works don't save. You've been trying to portray what I'm saying as "water baptism and works are UNIMPORTANT and NOT NEEDED at all".
In doing all this, you've been angry, bitter, preachy, rude, making false arguments that is essentially like lying (like saying a question about what it takes to go to heaven, is IRRELEVANT to a thread entitled "how to get to heaven"), and making false accusations at other Christians. And here's the unbelievable part - you've been PROJECTING your untoward behavior onto us, accusing us of everything that YOU are doing, just so that you can pass off what we are saying as "unchristian", "without the Holy Spirit", and whatever negative you need in order to de-legitimize what we've been saying. It really has been quite remarkable seeing how unaware you are.
I'll admit that some of my posts were rude, but that's because I was answering YOUR rudeness, in addition to your dishonesty, arrogance, and failure in logic. And my responses to Coke Bear and saabing were not rude. You are merely reading into them what you want to see.
Maybe you should also show your pastor your posts. What would you say if I told you a pastor thinks your posts supporting a works-based and water baptism-based gospel are wrong? And also, take this to heart: at least THREE Christians on here think your behavior is untoward, and at least TWO have pointed out your dishonesty! What does the bible say about a brother who is wrong, and then two brothers point it out (Matthew 18:15-17)?
You could not be more wrong, Frodo, but thanks for confirming my last post.
Stop and think - what do you gain from all this attacking and bullying, Frodo?
What message are you and BusyTarpDuster sending?
Take a look sometime at my political posts, boyo.xfrodobagginsx said:No bullying going on. It's just an observation. So then you can honestly say that you are a Red Blooded Trump Supporting Conservative Republican right? Trump 2024. Right?Oldbear83 said:Wow.xfrodobagginsx said:I agree with you. Exactly. I am also very Politically active and can say that I am very sure that this guy votes for the Democrat Party because Democrats do these very things Politically that this guy is doing in his religious beliefs. It's what Liberals do. They accuse their opponents of doing exactly what THEY themselves actually do. Look at Joe Biden and the Democrats constantly accusing Trump and Republicans of the Treason that the Democrats actually do. It's a tactic to get the attention off them themselves and on to the other guy.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Here's what's been happening:Oldbear83 said:Well, you and Frodo have indeed been rude, bitter and ignored everything I said because you only wanted to win an internet argument.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:So...you constantly bickered and argued against us for days/weeks/months but you AGREE with what we're saying, that works and water baptism doesn't save??!!Oldbear83 said:The first part (bolded) is correct. No one is denying it, either.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:True faith leads to obedience to Jesus and good works. False faith doesn't. It's true faith that saves, not the works. Obedience and works are the indicators of true faith.Oldbear83 said:
Frodo: 'You like to falsely accuse those whom you disagree with"
You keep falsely claiming that. It looks a lot like denial from where I sit, especially since you have not once addressed the main point I have made.
I expect it is a problem for you, since I have shown Scripture that does not fit your position.
For example, Christ Himself deemed it necessary to be baptized. Why?
Christ Himself baptized people, and so did his disciples. Why?
If you go back to the first page, you will see that we are all in agreement that faith in Christ is necessary through that faith we are granted redemption through Christ.
But Jesus also warned that 'salt may lose its saltiness', and that if we are his brothers and sisters we will do His will, to the point of warning, as in the wise and foolish virgins, that if we do not act as we should after believing, we may yet find the door shut in our face. I have cited several scriptures on this, and can do more if you still doubt.
The problem then, is what to do after we start in Christ's community. Your example of the thief on the cross is an exception, since there was no way for him to do anything now that he was dying, but that is far from the normal condition for people who come to Christ.
Scripture, and indeed Christ's own example, makes clear that we are to do more than think our Salvation is simply a matter of saying certain words at one moment. Keep in mind that we must become the people we will live as forever, so it matters that we start thinking, speaking and acting as members of Christ's family, in order that we become, more and more, that person God always intended for us to be.
Let's suppose you are correct, that a person can hear the gospel, believe in Jesus, and trust in Him for their salvation......but is NOT YET saved until they do good works and perform water baptism. It is IMPERATIVE then, that you, or the bible, tell us how many good works and acts of obedience is going to save them! I mean, this is very, very important. It's a matter of an eternity in heaven or an eternity in hell!! What is the threshold that Jesus will accept? 100% of the time? 50%? Just 10%? As long as you do more good than bad, i.e. 51% to 49%? I mean, this is very, very important. It's a matter of an eternity in heaven or an eternity in hell!!
If you are insisting that works is required for salvation, then aren't you instituting another form of law-keeping, (i.e. legalism) for salvation?
What you are missing, is the fact that some fall away from the faith. The problem I see, comes from assuming that once you are saved, that's all that is needed.
This is why I have such contempt for Lakewood and other churches which treat people as products rather than individuals. Becoming a Christian in life is not unlike recovering from surgery. You have to resist the old temptations, and you have to learn to desire and practice good thinking, speaking and acting. This thread itself demonstrates how difficult it can be for believers to stay in good thinking and good living.
This, I believe, is why Christ made such a point of staying focused on Christ after accepting Christ. Paul even wrote the same warnings.
Wow. Just wow.
Is it any wonder you have at least TWO Christians now that have pointed out your dishonesty?
You are in no way Christian in that behavior.
I suggest you step back and re-read your posts, not only to me but to other Christians who have posted in this thread, like Coke Bear and Saabing.
The dishonest ones are you two, seeking to feed your pride rather than consider what is posted here.
I dare you to take this thread to your pastor and see what an objective voice tells you.
You are angry at what we are saying, because maybe it reminds you of something that really angers and bothers you, so you've been taking it out on us.....even though you AGREE with everything we're saying! Which is remarkably odd. So, what you decided to do, was create a strawman to argue and post long diatribes about. No one was "ignoring everything you are saying" - the issue was, your arguments were not answering the relevant question or point. You were off trying to make your OWN point, arguing against the strawman of your creation. I've been arguing that water baptism and works don't save. You've been trying to portray what I'm saying as "water baptism and works are UNIMPORTANT and NOT NEEDED at all".
In doing all this, you've been angry, bitter, preachy, rude, making false arguments that is essentially like lying (like saying a question about what it takes to go to heaven, is IRRELEVANT to a thread entitled "how to get to heaven"), and making false accusations at other Christians. And here's the unbelievable part - you've been PROJECTING your untoward behavior onto us, accusing us of everything that YOU are doing, just so that you can pass off what we are saying as "unchristian", "without the Holy Spirit", and whatever negative you need in order to de-legitimize what we've been saying. It really has been quite remarkable seeing how unaware you are.
I'll admit that some of my posts were rude, but that's because I was answering YOUR rudeness, in addition to your dishonesty, arrogance, and failure in logic. And my responses to Coke Bear and saabing were not rude. You are merely reading into them what you want to see.
Maybe you should also show your pastor your posts. What would you say if I told you a pastor thinks your posts supporting a works-based and water baptism-based gospel are wrong? And also, take this to heart: at least THREE Christians on here think your behavior is untoward, and at least TWO have pointed out your dishonesty! What does the bible say about a brother who is wrong, and then two brothers point it out (Matthew 18:15-17)?
You could not be more wrong, Frodo, but thanks for confirming my last post.
Stop and think - what do you gain from all this attacking and bullying, Frodo?
What message are you and BusyTarpDuster sending?
So, then what you are saying is that you are actually a Conservative Trump Supporter, Against LGBTQ Agenda, Pro Lifer who uses Liberal Tactics of accusing others of what you Yourself are guilty of? Interesting.Oldbear83 said:Take a look sometime at my political posts, boyo.xfrodobagginsx said:No bullying going on. It's just an observation. So then you can honestly say that you are a Red Blooded Trump Supporting Conservative Republican right? Trump 2024. Right?Oldbear83 said:Wow.xfrodobagginsx said:I agree with you. Exactly. I am also very Politically active and can say that I am very sure that this guy votes for the Democrat Party because Democrats do these very things Politically that this guy is doing in his religious beliefs. It's what Liberals do. They accuse their opponents of doing exactly what THEY themselves actually do. Look at Joe Biden and the Democrats constantly accusing Trump and Republicans of the Treason that the Democrats actually do. It's a tactic to get the attention off them themselves and on to the other guy.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Here's what's been happening:Oldbear83 said:Well, you and Frodo have indeed been rude, bitter and ignored everything I said because you only wanted to win an internet argument.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:So...you constantly bickered and argued against us for days/weeks/months but you AGREE with what we're saying, that works and water baptism doesn't save??!!Oldbear83 said:The first part (bolded) is correct. No one is denying it, either.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:True faith leads to obedience to Jesus and good works. False faith doesn't. It's true faith that saves, not the works. Obedience and works are the indicators of true faith.Oldbear83 said:
Frodo: 'You like to falsely accuse those whom you disagree with"
You keep falsely claiming that. It looks a lot like denial from where I sit, especially since you have not once addressed the main point I have made.
I expect it is a problem for you, since I have shown Scripture that does not fit your position.
For example, Christ Himself deemed it necessary to be baptized. Why?
Christ Himself baptized people, and so did his disciples. Why?
If you go back to the first page, you will see that we are all in agreement that faith in Christ is necessary through that faith we are granted redemption through Christ.
But Jesus also warned that 'salt may lose its saltiness', and that if we are his brothers and sisters we will do His will, to the point of warning, as in the wise and foolish virgins, that if we do not act as we should after believing, we may yet find the door shut in our face. I have cited several scriptures on this, and can do more if you still doubt.
The problem then, is what to do after we start in Christ's community. Your example of the thief on the cross is an exception, since there was no way for him to do anything now that he was dying, but that is far from the normal condition for people who come to Christ.
Scripture, and indeed Christ's own example, makes clear that we are to do more than think our Salvation is simply a matter of saying certain words at one moment. Keep in mind that we must become the people we will live as forever, so it matters that we start thinking, speaking and acting as members of Christ's family, in order that we become, more and more, that person God always intended for us to be.
Let's suppose you are correct, that a person can hear the gospel, believe in Jesus, and trust in Him for their salvation......but is NOT YET saved until they do good works and perform water baptism. It is IMPERATIVE then, that you, or the bible, tell us how many good works and acts of obedience is going to save them! I mean, this is very, very important. It's a matter of an eternity in heaven or an eternity in hell!! What is the threshold that Jesus will accept? 100% of the time? 50%? Just 10%? As long as you do more good than bad, i.e. 51% to 49%? I mean, this is very, very important. It's a matter of an eternity in heaven or an eternity in hell!!
If you are insisting that works is required for salvation, then aren't you instituting another form of law-keeping, (i.e. legalism) for salvation?
What you are missing, is the fact that some fall away from the faith. The problem I see, comes from assuming that once you are saved, that's all that is needed.
This is why I have such contempt for Lakewood and other churches which treat people as products rather than individuals. Becoming a Christian in life is not unlike recovering from surgery. You have to resist the old temptations, and you have to learn to desire and practice good thinking, speaking and acting. This thread itself demonstrates how difficult it can be for believers to stay in good thinking and good living.
This, I believe, is why Christ made such a point of staying focused on Christ after accepting Christ. Paul even wrote the same warnings.
Wow. Just wow.
Is it any wonder you have at least TWO Christians now that have pointed out your dishonesty?
You are in no way Christian in that behavior.
I suggest you step back and re-read your posts, not only to me but to other Christians who have posted in this thread, like Coke Bear and Saabing.
The dishonest ones are you two, seeking to feed your pride rather than consider what is posted here.
I dare you to take this thread to your pastor and see what an objective voice tells you.
You are angry at what we are saying, because maybe it reminds you of something that really angers and bothers you, so you've been taking it out on us.....even though you AGREE with everything we're saying! Which is remarkably odd. So, what you decided to do, was create a strawman to argue and post long diatribes about. No one was "ignoring everything you are saying" - the issue was, your arguments were not answering the relevant question or point. You were off trying to make your OWN point, arguing against the strawman of your creation. I've been arguing that water baptism and works don't save. You've been trying to portray what I'm saying as "water baptism and works are UNIMPORTANT and NOT NEEDED at all".
In doing all this, you've been angry, bitter, preachy, rude, making false arguments that is essentially like lying (like saying a question about what it takes to go to heaven, is IRRELEVANT to a thread entitled "how to get to heaven"), and making false accusations at other Christians. And here's the unbelievable part - you've been PROJECTING your untoward behavior onto us, accusing us of everything that YOU are doing, just so that you can pass off what we are saying as "unchristian", "without the Holy Spirit", and whatever negative you need in order to de-legitimize what we've been saying. It really has been quite remarkable seeing how unaware you are.
I'll admit that some of my posts were rude, but that's because I was answering YOUR rudeness, in addition to your dishonesty, arrogance, and failure in logic. And my responses to Coke Bear and saabing were not rude. You are merely reading into them what you want to see.
Maybe you should also show your pastor your posts. What would you say if I told you a pastor thinks your posts supporting a works-based and water baptism-based gospel are wrong? And also, take this to heart: at least THREE Christians on here think your behavior is untoward, and at least TWO have pointed out your dishonesty! What does the bible say about a brother who is wrong, and then two brothers point it out (Matthew 18:15-17)?
You could not be more wrong, Frodo, but thanks for confirming my last post.
Stop and think - what do you gain from all this attacking and bullying, Frodo?
What message are you and BusyTarpDuster sending?
I've been here for years, and very clear about my opinions.
Funny though, that you complain about projection when your post did exactly that. It's freaking hilarious that you imagine you can claim to know my political beliefs, much less why you imagine they would have been involved in a thread about faith.
Almost as ironic, too, as you ignoring Scripture posted about what Christ Himself did, said and taught.
Wow, just wow.xfrodobagginsx said:So, then what you are saying is that you are actually a Conservative Trump Supporter, Against LGBTQ Agenda, Pro Lifer who uses Liberal Tactics of accusing others of what you Yourself are guilty of? Interesting.Oldbear83 said:Take a look sometime at my political posts, boyo.xfrodobagginsx said:No bullying going on. It's just an observation. So then you can honestly say that you are a Red Blooded Trump Supporting Conservative Republican right? Trump 2024. Right?Oldbear83 said:Wow.xfrodobagginsx said:I agree with you. Exactly. I am also very Politically active and can say that I am very sure that this guy votes for the Democrat Party because Democrats do these very things Politically that this guy is doing in his religious beliefs. It's what Liberals do. They accuse their opponents of doing exactly what THEY themselves actually do. Look at Joe Biden and the Democrats constantly accusing Trump and Republicans of the Treason that the Democrats actually do. It's a tactic to get the attention off them themselves and on to the other guy.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Here's what's been happening:Oldbear83 said:Well, you and Frodo have indeed been rude, bitter and ignored everything I said because you only wanted to win an internet argument.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:So...you constantly bickered and argued against us for days/weeks/months but you AGREE with what we're saying, that works and water baptism doesn't save??!!Oldbear83 said:The first part (bolded) is correct. No one is denying it, either.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:True faith leads to obedience to Jesus and good works. False faith doesn't. It's true faith that saves, not the works. Obedience and works are the indicators of true faith.Oldbear83 said:
Frodo: 'You like to falsely accuse those whom you disagree with"
You keep falsely claiming that. It looks a lot like denial from where I sit, especially since you have not once addressed the main point I have made.
I expect it is a problem for you, since I have shown Scripture that does not fit your position.
For example, Christ Himself deemed it necessary to be baptized. Why?
Christ Himself baptized people, and so did his disciples. Why?
If you go back to the first page, you will see that we are all in agreement that faith in Christ is necessary through that faith we are granted redemption through Christ.
But Jesus also warned that 'salt may lose its saltiness', and that if we are his brothers and sisters we will do His will, to the point of warning, as in the wise and foolish virgins, that if we do not act as we should after believing, we may yet find the door shut in our face. I have cited several scriptures on this, and can do more if you still doubt.
The problem then, is what to do after we start in Christ's community. Your example of the thief on the cross is an exception, since there was no way for him to do anything now that he was dying, but that is far from the normal condition for people who come to Christ.
Scripture, and indeed Christ's own example, makes clear that we are to do more than think our Salvation is simply a matter of saying certain words at one moment. Keep in mind that we must become the people we will live as forever, so it matters that we start thinking, speaking and acting as members of Christ's family, in order that we become, more and more, that person God always intended for us to be.
Let's suppose you are correct, that a person can hear the gospel, believe in Jesus, and trust in Him for their salvation......but is NOT YET saved until they do good works and perform water baptism. It is IMPERATIVE then, that you, or the bible, tell us how many good works and acts of obedience is going to save them! I mean, this is very, very important. It's a matter of an eternity in heaven or an eternity in hell!! What is the threshold that Jesus will accept? 100% of the time? 50%? Just 10%? As long as you do more good than bad, i.e. 51% to 49%? I mean, this is very, very important. It's a matter of an eternity in heaven or an eternity in hell!!
If you are insisting that works is required for salvation, then aren't you instituting another form of law-keeping, (i.e. legalism) for salvation?
What you are missing, is the fact that some fall away from the faith. The problem I see, comes from assuming that once you are saved, that's all that is needed.
This is why I have such contempt for Lakewood and other churches which treat people as products rather than individuals. Becoming a Christian in life is not unlike recovering from surgery. You have to resist the old temptations, and you have to learn to desire and practice good thinking, speaking and acting. This thread itself demonstrates how difficult it can be for believers to stay in good thinking and good living.
This, I believe, is why Christ made such a point of staying focused on Christ after accepting Christ. Paul even wrote the same warnings.
Wow. Just wow.
Is it any wonder you have at least TWO Christians now that have pointed out your dishonesty?
You are in no way Christian in that behavior.
I suggest you step back and re-read your posts, not only to me but to other Christians who have posted in this thread, like Coke Bear and Saabing.
The dishonest ones are you two, seeking to feed your pride rather than consider what is posted here.
I dare you to take this thread to your pastor and see what an objective voice tells you.
You are angry at what we are saying, because maybe it reminds you of something that really angers and bothers you, so you've been taking it out on us.....even though you AGREE with everything we're saying! Which is remarkably odd. So, what you decided to do, was create a strawman to argue and post long diatribes about. No one was "ignoring everything you are saying" - the issue was, your arguments were not answering the relevant question or point. You were off trying to make your OWN point, arguing against the strawman of your creation. I've been arguing that water baptism and works don't save. You've been trying to portray what I'm saying as "water baptism and works are UNIMPORTANT and NOT NEEDED at all".
In doing all this, you've been angry, bitter, preachy, rude, making false arguments that is essentially like lying (like saying a question about what it takes to go to heaven, is IRRELEVANT to a thread entitled "how to get to heaven"), and making false accusations at other Christians. And here's the unbelievable part - you've been PROJECTING your untoward behavior onto us, accusing us of everything that YOU are doing, just so that you can pass off what we are saying as "unchristian", "without the Holy Spirit", and whatever negative you need in order to de-legitimize what we've been saying. It really has been quite remarkable seeing how unaware you are.
I'll admit that some of my posts were rude, but that's because I was answering YOUR rudeness, in addition to your dishonesty, arrogance, and failure in logic. And my responses to Coke Bear and saabing were not rude. You are merely reading into them what you want to see.
Maybe you should also show your pastor your posts. What would you say if I told you a pastor thinks your posts supporting a works-based and water baptism-based gospel are wrong? And also, take this to heart: at least THREE Christians on here think your behavior is untoward, and at least TWO have pointed out your dishonesty! What does the bible say about a brother who is wrong, and then two brothers point it out (Matthew 18:15-17)?
You could not be more wrong, Frodo, but thanks for confirming my last post.
Stop and think - what do you gain from all this attacking and bullying, Frodo?
What message are you and BusyTarpDuster sending?
I've been here for years, and very clear about my opinions.
Funny though, that you complain about projection when your post did exactly that. It's freaking hilarious that you imagine you can claim to know my political beliefs, much less why you imagine they would have been involved in a thread about faith.
Almost as ironic, too, as you ignoring Scripture posted about what Christ Himself did, said and taught.
So then let's hear you admit that you are a Conservative, Trump supporter, against the LGBTQ Agenda, Pro Life...the only tactic I have here is to extract the TRUTH from you. That's a Liberals worst nightmare. So can you honestly say that you are a Trump supporter, against the LGBTQ Agenda, Pro Life...? I still haven't seen you admit that yet....waiting...Oldbear83 said:Wow, just wow.xfrodobagginsx said:So, then what you are saying is that you are actually a Conservative Trump Supporter, Against LGBTQ Agenda, Pro Lifer who uses Liberal Tactics of accusing others of what you Yourself are guilty of? Interesting.Oldbear83 said:Take a look sometime at my political posts, boyo.xfrodobagginsx said:No bullying going on. It's just an observation. So then you can honestly say that you are a Red Blooded Trump Supporting Conservative Republican right? Trump 2024. Right?Oldbear83 said:Wow.xfrodobagginsx said:I agree with you. Exactly. I am also very Politically active and can say that I am very sure that this guy votes for the Democrat Party because Democrats do these very things Politically that this guy is doing in his religious beliefs. It's what Liberals do. They accuse their opponents of doing exactly what THEY themselves actually do. Look at Joe Biden and the Democrats constantly accusing Trump and Republicans of the Treason that the Democrats actually do. It's a tactic to get the attention off them themselves and on to the other guy.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Here's what's been happening:Oldbear83 said:Well, you and Frodo have indeed been rude, bitter and ignored everything I said because you only wanted to win an internet argument.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:So...you constantly bickered and argued against us for days/weeks/months but you AGREE with what we're saying, that works and water baptism doesn't save??!!Oldbear83 said:The first part (bolded) is correct. No one is denying it, either.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:True faith leads to obedience to Jesus and good works. False faith doesn't. It's true faith that saves, not the works. Obedience and works are the indicators of true faith.Oldbear83 said:
Frodo: 'You like to falsely accuse those whom you disagree with"
You keep falsely claiming that. It looks a lot like denial from where I sit, especially since you have not once addressed the main point I have made.
I expect it is a problem for you, since I have shown Scripture that does not fit your position.
For example, Christ Himself deemed it necessary to be baptized. Why?
Christ Himself baptized people, and so did his disciples. Why?
If you go back to the first page, you will see that we are all in agreement that faith in Christ is necessary through that faith we are granted redemption through Christ.
But Jesus also warned that 'salt may lose its saltiness', and that if we are his brothers and sisters we will do His will, to the point of warning, as in the wise and foolish virgins, that if we do not act as we should after believing, we may yet find the door shut in our face. I have cited several scriptures on this, and can do more if you still doubt.
The problem then, is what to do after we start in Christ's community. Your example of the thief on the cross is an exception, since there was no way for him to do anything now that he was dying, but that is far from the normal condition for people who come to Christ.
Scripture, and indeed Christ's own example, makes clear that we are to do more than think our Salvation is simply a matter of saying certain words at one moment. Keep in mind that we must become the people we will live as forever, so it matters that we start thinking, speaking and acting as members of Christ's family, in order that we become, more and more, that person God always intended for us to be.
Let's suppose you are correct, that a person can hear the gospel, believe in Jesus, and trust in Him for their salvation......but is NOT YET saved until they do good works and perform water baptism. It is IMPERATIVE then, that you, or the bible, tell us how many good works and acts of obedience is going to save them! I mean, this is very, very important. It's a matter of an eternity in heaven or an eternity in hell!! What is the threshold that Jesus will accept? 100% of the time? 50%? Just 10%? As long as you do more good than bad, i.e. 51% to 49%? I mean, this is very, very important. It's a matter of an eternity in heaven or an eternity in hell!!
If you are insisting that works is required for salvation, then aren't you instituting another form of law-keeping, (i.e. legalism) for salvation?
What you are missing, is the fact that some fall away from the faith. The problem I see, comes from assuming that once you are saved, that's all that is needed.
This is why I have such contempt for Lakewood and other churches which treat people as products rather than individuals. Becoming a Christian in life is not unlike recovering from surgery. You have to resist the old temptations, and you have to learn to desire and practice good thinking, speaking and acting. This thread itself demonstrates how difficult it can be for believers to stay in good thinking and good living.
This, I believe, is why Christ made such a point of staying focused on Christ after accepting Christ. Paul even wrote the same warnings.
Wow. Just wow.
Is it any wonder you have at least TWO Christians now that have pointed out your dishonesty?
You are in no way Christian in that behavior.
I suggest you step back and re-read your posts, not only to me but to other Christians who have posted in this thread, like Coke Bear and Saabing.
The dishonest ones are you two, seeking to feed your pride rather than consider what is posted here.
I dare you to take this thread to your pastor and see what an objective voice tells you.
You are angry at what we are saying, because maybe it reminds you of something that really angers and bothers you, so you've been taking it out on us.....even though you AGREE with everything we're saying! Which is remarkably odd. So, what you decided to do, was create a strawman to argue and post long diatribes about. No one was "ignoring everything you are saying" - the issue was, your arguments were not answering the relevant question or point. You were off trying to make your OWN point, arguing against the strawman of your creation. I've been arguing that water baptism and works don't save. You've been trying to portray what I'm saying as "water baptism and works are UNIMPORTANT and NOT NEEDED at all".
In doing all this, you've been angry, bitter, preachy, rude, making false arguments that is essentially like lying (like saying a question about what it takes to go to heaven, is IRRELEVANT to a thread entitled "how to get to heaven"), and making false accusations at other Christians. And here's the unbelievable part - you've been PROJECTING your untoward behavior onto us, accusing us of everything that YOU are doing, just so that you can pass off what we are saying as "unchristian", "without the Holy Spirit", and whatever negative you need in order to de-legitimize what we've been saying. It really has been quite remarkable seeing how unaware you are.
I'll admit that some of my posts were rude, but that's because I was answering YOUR rudeness, in addition to your dishonesty, arrogance, and failure in logic. And my responses to Coke Bear and saabing were not rude. You are merely reading into them what you want to see.
Maybe you should also show your pastor your posts. What would you say if I told you a pastor thinks your posts supporting a works-based and water baptism-based gospel are wrong? And also, take this to heart: at least THREE Christians on here think your behavior is untoward, and at least TWO have pointed out your dishonesty! What does the bible say about a brother who is wrong, and then two brothers point it out (Matthew 18:15-17)?
You could not be more wrong, Frodo, but thanks for confirming my last post.
Stop and think - what do you gain from all this attacking and bullying, Frodo?
What message are you and BusyTarpDuster sending?
I've been here for years, and very clear about my opinions.
Funny though, that you complain about projection when your post did exactly that. It's freaking hilarious that you imagine you can claim to know my political beliefs, much less why you imagine they would have been involved in a thread about faith.
Almost as ironic, too, as you ignoring Scripture posted about what Christ Himself did, said and taught.
Is there any shame in your spirit at all for your malice, Frodo?
I quote Christ, and for that you explode in to endless screeds like that one.
The only shameful tactics in play here are yours, boyo.
It's interesting that you are accusing people of "Ducking" and yet YOU are purposely Ducking the question. That tells me that I am right about you and you don't want to admit it. Wow! That is your issue. You need to stop thinking like a Liberal. They don't draw proper conclusions because they refuse to look at the Facts and Truth, but instead use their Emotions and what they wish were true, to make their decisions. That's what's keeping you from coming to the knowledge of the truth...Oldbear83 said:
For those actually interested in the thread topic, the problem which some are discussing and others are ducking, is how to really help someone who is seeking reconciliation with God through Jesus Christ.
Some time back churches were community-focused, and new believers found help in how to pray, resist their former natures, and grow in the community through Christian rites and ordinances. Sadly, a lot of those churches gave way to 'modern' versions which focused more on performance and flash, providing less and less help to people in need, and some blatantly became money-chasing fronts (looking at you, Joel Osteen).
The question at hand, then, is the best way to help someone find their way to a relationship with God. Others may disagree, still seeking pride in 'winning' an internet debate at any cost.
Good luck with that.Mitch Blood Green said:
Reading all this ***** barking makes me glad I won't be in heaven. Seems he'll is where the peace is.
So then you refuse to say it? If you really are a Conservative, admit that you agree with the things I mentioned above.Oldbear83 said:
As if on cue.
One last time, Frodo. If you want to be right with Christ, pay attention to what He said and did, and less effort trying to force Paul's writings to match your opinion.
And your quote from the epistle to Titus? That's YOU that is being discussed. You can tell because you made this whole thread about your ego and opinion.
