Oldbear83 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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Sometimes the Southern Baptists take the 'dry' concept a bit far ...

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And when it comes to the view of water baptism in relation to salvation, you're all wet.

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Show me you ignore what I actually post without using those words ...

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Why wouldn't I ignore it? I'm not a Southern Baptist.

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So you admit you ignore anything that doesn't come from someone with the same opinions as you.

Wow.

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Wait..if YOU believe the same, that water baptism is not required for salvation, then doesn't your comment include YOU too?

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Nope. I have not rejected any on-topic discussions, just the attacks on people for asking valid questions.

You should try it, it's amazing what an open mind does for broadening perspective.

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"Nope"?? So, you DO believe water baptism is required, meaning that without it you WILL go to hell, no matter whether you believe in Jesus and trust in him?

xfrodobagginsx said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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saabing bear said:

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xfrodobagginsx said:

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The Bible makes it clear that Water Baptism is not what saves a soul, it is by Faith Alone without work by believing the Gospel. Paul said he was not sent to Baptize, but to Preach the Gospel and that it is the Gospel that saves. Paul also said he was glad that he baptized none of those who were with him save 2 others.

Baptism and Good Works are things we do AFTER Salvation, NOT so that we can be saved.

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The Bible makes it clear that we are saved by God's free grace, through our faith in Jesus, when we believe and confess our faith, repent of our sins, and are baptized into Christ for the remission of our sins. How can we be saved before we are united with Christ (Romans 6: 3,4) and still guilty of our sins (Acts 2: 38)?

Paul's comments were in response to those who were bragging about who baptized them. Who baptizes someone is not important, only the faith of the one being baptized.

---

In Matthew 3:11-17, John the Baptist said:

"I baptize you with water for repentance, but he who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire."

Was Paul's reference to "baptism" water baptism or Jesus' baptism with the Holy Spirit? Why the need for Jesus to baptize with the Holy Spirit if water baptism is what saves?

And if you're relying on the authority of Paul when you quote Romans 6, what about Paul in Romans 6:9? "that if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved." If you also needed to be water baptized to be saved, then why would Paul leave out such a critical element? We're talking about an eternity in heaven or hell that's on the line, after all.

The belief that without water baptism you won't be saved, and you'll go to hell, is fraught with logistical problems. Dying before begin baptized, scarcity of water, no other person available to do the baptism, etc. But more importantly, it is saying that salvation depends on YOUR EFFORT. That clearly isn't what the bible teaches about salvation. Moreover, the belief that without water baptism you are not saved falsifies Jesus' words about salvation in addition to Paul's. For if somebody hears the gospel, believes in Jesus with all his heart, and trusts in Jesus for his salvation- but dies before baptism, or fails to get baptized for any other reason - if that person is NOT saved but rather is in hell, then Jesus is wrong when he said "whoever believes in him shall have eternal life" because this is somebody who DID believe in him but did NOT inherit eternal life. It would also falsify Paul's words above in Romans 6. In fact, it would falsify all the 30+ references to salvation in the bible that DON'T mention anything about having to be water baptized.

If you truly believe that without water baptism you won't be saved, then in any scenario where someone truly believes in Jesus and trusts in him for their salvation, but fails to get baptized, you MUST then believe that person is in hell if you're gonna be consistent in your belief. So ask yourself - does that sound right? Does that sound like what Jesus would do? Throw someone into hell even though that person believed and trusted in him, because they didn't, or couldn't, dunk their bodies in water? What about his baptism with the Holy Spirit that John the Baptist told us about? What did that achieve, then? And would the Holy Spirit be wrong by not clearly spelling out in the bible that without water baptism, a belief in Jesus with all one's heart is completely nullified, and you'll still go to hell?

That is why those of you who believe that without water baptism you aren't saved have so much trouble answering the scenario about dying before baptism. Apparently, the Catholic Church can't even keep it straight about what they believe on that, saying on the one hand that it is necessary for salvation, then on the other saying that it's not. You can't have it both ways - if water baptism is necessary for salvation, then that person is in hell, period. You can't hedge on that. Is that what you believe the true gospel to be?

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Good points.

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Points that will be ignored or disregarded, sadly. Especially by OldBear, who then will accuse me of ignoring and disregarding.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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Sometimes the Southern Baptists take the 'dry' concept a bit far ...

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And when it comes to the view of water baptism in relation to salvation, you're all wet.

---

Show me you ignore what I actually post without using those words ...

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Why wouldn't I ignore it? I'm not a Southern Baptist.

---

So you admit you ignore anything that doesn't come from someone with the same opinions as you.

Wow.

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Wait..if YOU believe the same, that water baptism is not required for salvation, then doesn't your comment include YOU too?

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Nope. I have not rejected any on-topic discussions, just the attacks on people for asking valid questions.

You should try it, it's amazing what an open mind does for broadening perspective.

---

"Nope"?? So, you DO believe water baptism is required, meaning that without it you WILL go to hell, no matter whether you believe in Jesus and trust in him?

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Nope. It means that my comment does not apply to me, because I do not ignore or reject an opinion just because it's different from mine. I told that in the second sentence.

I'm sure you are glad to have Frodo share your opinion, but you ignore or misread anything others say.

Going back to the topic, which is Salvation, I take the position that Scripture does not contradict itself. So when someone claims an absolute which is not supported elsewhere, the resolution comes from the entirety of Scripture.

Depend on the Holy Spirit rather than our own understanding, and we won't go wrong.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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xfrodobagginsx said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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saabing bear said:

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xfrodobagginsx said:

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The Bible makes it clear that Water Baptism is not what saves a soul, it is by Faith Alone without work by believing the Gospel. Paul said he was not sent to Baptize, but to Preach the Gospel and that it is the Gospel that saves. Paul also said he was glad that he baptized none of those who were with him save 2 others.

Baptism and Good Works are things we do AFTER Salvation, NOT so that we can be saved.

---

The Bible makes it clear that we are saved by God's free grace, through our faith in Jesus, when we believe and confess our faith, repent of our sins, and are baptized into Christ for the remission of our sins. How can we be saved before we are united with Christ (Romans 6: 3,4) and still guilty of our sins (Acts 2: 38)?

Paul's comments were in response to those who were bragging about who baptized them. Who baptizes someone is not important, only the faith of the one being baptized.

---

In Matthew 3:11-17, John the Baptist said:

"I baptize you with water for repentance, but he who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire."

Was Paul's reference to "baptism" water baptism or Jesus' baptism with the Holy Spirit? Why the need for Jesus to baptize with the Holy Spirit if water baptism is what saves?

And if you're relying on the authority of Paul when you quote Romans 6, what about Paul in Romans 6:9? "that if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved." If you also needed to be water baptized to be saved, then why would Paul leave out such a critical element? We're talking about an eternity in heaven or hell that's on the line, after all.

The belief that without water baptism you won't be saved, and you'll go to hell, is fraught with logistical problems. Dying before begin baptized, scarcity of water, no other person available to do the baptism, etc. But more importantly, it is saying that salvation depends on YOUR EFFORT. That clearly isn't what the bible teaches about salvation. Moreover, the belief that without water baptism you are not saved falsifies Jesus' words about salvation in addition to Paul's. For if somebody hears the gospel, believes in Jesus with all his heart, and trusts in Jesus for his salvation- but dies before baptism, or fails to get baptized for any other reason - if that person is NOT saved but rather is in hell, then Jesus is wrong when he said "whoever believes in him shall have eternal life" because this is somebody who DID believe in him but did NOT inherit eternal life. It would also falsify Paul's words above in Romans 6. In fact, it would falsify all the 30+ references to salvation in the bible that DON'T mention anything about having to be water baptized.

If you truly believe that without water baptism you won't be saved, then in any scenario where someone truly believes in Jesus and trusts in him for their salvation, but fails to get baptized, you MUST then believe that person is in hell if you're gonna be consistent in your belief. So ask yourself - does that sound right? Does that sound like what Jesus would do? Throw someone into hell even though that person believed and trusted in him, because they didn't, or couldn't, dunk their bodies in water? What about his baptism with the Holy Spirit that John the Baptist told us about? What did that achieve, then? And would the Holy Spirit be wrong by not clearly spelling out in the bible that without water baptism, a belief in Jesus with all one's heart is completely nullified, and you'll still go to hell?

That is why those of you who believe that without water baptism you aren't saved have so much trouble answering the scenario about dying before baptism. Apparently, the Catholic Church can't even keep it straight about what they believe on that, saying on the one hand that it is necessary for salvation, then on the other saying that it's not. You can't have it both ways - if water baptism is necessary for salvation, then that person is in hell, period. You can't hedge on that. Is that what you believe the true gospel to be?

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Good points.

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Points that will be ignored or disregarded, sadly. Especially by OldBear, who then will accuse me of ignoring and disregarding.

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I know because he is more interested in being right and proving your wrong than he is seeking the actual truth. It's the Liberal mindset.

xfrodobagginsx said:

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It's the Gospel that saves, not water Baptism:

Not one mention of Water Baptism in the Gospel. Water Baptism is a symbol of the Spiritual Birth that occurs once we place our Faith in Jesus Christ to save us, believing that He died and rose again as a Sacrifice for our sins.

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Once again, we are saved BY God's free grace THROUGH faith in Jesus WHEN we are baptized. It is NOT either/or.

Do I really have to make a list again of all the verses in the Bible that speak of baptism? Get a concordance.

Please show me where the Bible describes baptism as a symbol of something else. I'll save you time, it's not there.

"Water baptism" is redundant. The Greek word baptizo means to be immersed in water. John the Baptizer said Jesus would baptize with fire and the Holy Spirit. We receive the Holy Spirit at baptism (Acts 2:38). There is no reason to believe this spiritual act happens separate and without immersion in water.

Oldbear83 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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Sometimes the Southern Baptists take the 'dry' concept a bit far ...

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And when it comes to the view of water baptism in relation to salvation, you're all wet.

---

Show me you ignore what I actually post without using those words ...

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Why wouldn't I ignore it? I'm not a Southern Baptist.

---

So you admit you ignore anything that doesn't come from someone with the same opinions as you.

Wow.

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Wait..if YOU believe the same, that water baptism is not required for salvation, then doesn't your comment include YOU too?

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Nope. I have not rejected any on-topic discussions, just the attacks on people for asking valid questions.

You should try it, it's amazing what an open mind does for broadening perspective.

---

"Nope"?? So, you DO believe water baptism is required, meaning that without it you WILL go to hell, no matter whether you believe in Jesus and trust in him?

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Nope. It means that my comment does not apply to me, because I do not ignore or reject an opinion just because it's different from mine. I told that in the second sentence.

I'm sure you are glad to have Frodo share your opinion, but you ignore or misread anything others say.

Going back to the topic, which is Salvation, I take the position that Scripture does not contradict itself. So when someone claims an absolute which is not supported elsewhere, the resolution comes from the entirety of Scripture.

Depend on the Holy Spirit rather than our own understanding, and we won't go wrong.

---

You clearly made the comment about Southern Baptists, and no one else. You were called out on it, so you tried to change what you meant by saying you were including anyone who "thinks the same way".

And if "thinking the same way" means believing that water baptism is not required for salvation, then yes, you DO believe the same way, because you have specifically stated that you don't believe God is going to hold it against someone for not being water baptized.

In addition, you are assuming we are disagreeing with others here "because it's different from" our opinion. NO, we are disagreeing because it's not supported biblically and logically. You see, this is your central problem - you are injecting thoughts in our heads, and then you're arguing against those thoughts rather than the substance of what we're saying. And then you accuse US of ignoring substance. It's really been quite ridiculous, your incredible lack of awareness. I've said this over and over, and you really need to start seeing this.

If you say that Scripture doesn't contradict itself, then tell us clearly - based on scripture, is water baptism required for salvation, meaning that we will go to hell if we don't get water baptized, even if we believe in Jesus and trust in him for our salvation? If you are sure scripture doesn't contradict itself, there is a clear answer to this, right? So what is it?

xfrodobagginsx said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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xfrodobagginsx said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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saabing bear said:

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xfrodobagginsx said:

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The Bible makes it clear that Water Baptism is not what saves a soul, it is by Faith Alone without work by believing the Gospel. Paul said he was not sent to Baptize, but to Preach the Gospel and that it is the Gospel that saves. Paul also said he was glad that he baptized none of those who were with him save 2 others.

Baptism and Good Works are things we do AFTER Salvation, NOT so that we can be saved.

---

The Bible makes it clear that we are saved by God's free grace, through our faith in Jesus, when we believe and confess our faith, repent of our sins, and are baptized into Christ for the remission of our sins. How can we be saved before we are united with Christ (Romans 6: 3,4) and still guilty of our sins (Acts 2: 38)?

Paul's comments were in response to those who were bragging about who baptized them. Who baptizes someone is not important, only the faith of the one being baptized.

---

In Matthew 3:11-17, John the Baptist said:

"I baptize you with water for repentance, but he who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire."

Was Paul's reference to "baptism" water baptism or Jesus' baptism with the Holy Spirit? Why the need for Jesus to baptize with the Holy Spirit if water baptism is what saves?

And if you're relying on the authority of Paul when you quote Romans 6, what about Paul in Romans 6:9? "that if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved." If you also needed to be water baptized to be saved, then why would Paul leave out such a critical element? We're talking about an eternity in heaven or hell that's on the line, after all.

The belief that without water baptism you won't be saved, and you'll go to hell, is fraught with logistical problems. Dying before begin baptized, scarcity of water, no other person available to do the baptism, etc. But more importantly, it is saying that salvation depends on YOUR EFFORT. That clearly isn't what the bible teaches about salvation. Moreover, the belief that without water baptism you are not saved falsifies Jesus' words about salvation in addition to Paul's. For if somebody hears the gospel, believes in Jesus with all his heart, and trusts in Jesus for his salvation- but dies before baptism, or fails to get baptized for any other reason - if that person is NOT saved but rather is in hell, then Jesus is wrong when he said "whoever believes in him shall have eternal life" because this is somebody who DID believe in him but did NOT inherit eternal life. It would also falsify Paul's words above in Romans 6. In fact, it would falsify all the 30+ references to salvation in the bible that DON'T mention anything about having to be water baptized.

If you truly believe that without water baptism you won't be saved, then in any scenario where someone truly believes in Jesus and trusts in him for their salvation, but fails to get baptized, you MUST then believe that person is in hell if you're gonna be consistent in your belief. So ask yourself - does that sound right? Does that sound like what Jesus would do? Throw someone into hell even though that person believed and trusted in him, because they didn't, or couldn't, dunk their bodies in water? What about his baptism with the Holy Spirit that John the Baptist told us about? What did that achieve, then? And would the Holy Spirit be wrong by not clearly spelling out in the bible that without water baptism, a belief in Jesus with all one's heart is completely nullified, and you'll still go to hell?

That is why those of you who believe that without water baptism you aren't saved have so much trouble answering the scenario about dying before baptism. Apparently, the Catholic Church can't even keep it straight about what they believe on that, saying on the one hand that it is necessary for salvation, then on the other saying that it's not. You can't have it both ways - if water baptism is necessary for salvation, then that person is in hell, period. You can't hedge on that. Is that what you believe the true gospel to be?

---

Good points.

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Points that will be ignored or disregarded, sadly. Especially by OldBear, who then will accuse me of ignoring and disregarding.

---

I know because he is more interested in being right and proving your wrong than he is seeking the actual truth. It's the Liberal mindset.

---

The frustrating thing about him is that I don't have a CLUE what it is he is trying to prove me wrong about, since he has already made statements in agreement with it. He really is shadow boxing at this point.

I was trying to lighten the mood, Busy. As a Southern Baptist, it would be OK for me to laugh at my own denomination.

You get angry and bitter so very easily, you don't even attempt to understand other perspectives.

As for what Scripture says, I have told you over and over how Jesus made a point of being publicly baptized, and how He baptized believers, and how HIs disciples and apostles did so after Pentecost. The only reasonable meaning one can take from all that, is that Jesus considered baptism to be important.

Before we get into another bicker, can you agree to that part? And please note, I did not say baptism was essential for Salvation, but that it is important.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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[You don't seem to understand the equivocating nature of the Catholic position that you've explained.

You've explained that according to Catholicism a person who did not get water baptized can still be saved if they desired baptism, or that they would have desired baptism if they knew it was required. So isn't this saying that it ISN'T required? How can it be required and not required at the same time?

I asked you at least twice about this contradiction, but didn't receive an answer both times.

---

I try to explain the Catholic stance a little better. First the Church is typically not a religion of Either / Or. It is, often times, a religion of Both / And.

Back to baptism. Yes, one must be baptized to enter the Kingdom of God. Jesus is explicit about this in John 3:5. One can be baptized by water, blood, or desire.

Water Pretty obviously. The Church allows for immersion or pouring.

Blood Bearing witness to Christ by being martyred in for faith in Jesus prior to one being water-baptized. One example was the 21 Coptics that beheaded several years ago by Muslims for their beliefs. 20 of them were Christian, but the 21st was not. His willingness to die with the other in defense of Jesus and His Church makes his baptism of blood.

Desire Hearing and accepting the message of Jesus with a desire to be baptized, but dying before they are able to be baptized. For example, 1000's of people across the country are desiring to enter the Catholic Church. For most, this process takes about a year of classes or religious instruction called RCIA Rite of Christian Initiation of Adults. They have accepted Jesus's message and desire to enter the Church. This usually enter the Christian community at the Easter Vigil Mass (on the Saturday eve of Easter Sunday). They are baptized (if not already baptized) and receive the other two sacraments of Confirmation and the First Communion. If they were to die before they were baptized, the was be saved, because they expressed the desire for baptism. That would be their baptism.

In all three of these situations, a person IS getting baptized.

No contradictions. If this explaination is not clear, please let me know. You may not accept it, (that's not my job I'm here to plant seeds and let the Holy Spirit do the work.) but I hope that that I better explained it.

Still sense a lot of tension, so I will try again to lighten the mood:

The Baptists are having a Revival (I am a Southern Baptist, so I can poke at my own team), and if you know Baptists those can go on a while.

Preacher is going on and on, and the choir director is starting to doze a bit,

Preacher goes off on how evil liquor is, and how the congregation ought to find all the liquor in town and throw it into the waterway near by.

Preacher works up the crowd and, satisfied with his sermon, he asks the Choir Director to announce a hymn.

Choir Director snaps to attention, and announces "Shall We Gather At the River?"

Is all of this knowledge regarding salvation useful in determining if someone else is "redeemed" or not?

If so, why?

Oldbear83 said:

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I was trying to lighten the mood, Busy. As a Southern Baptist, it would be OK for me to laugh at my own denomination.

You get angry and bitter so very easily, you don't even attempt to understand other perspectives.

As for what Scripture says, I have told you over and over how Jesus made a point of being publicly baptized, and how He baptized believers, and how HIs disciples and apostles did so after Pentecost. The only reasonable meaning one can take from all that, is that Jesus considered baptism to be important.

Before we get into another bicker, can you agree to that part? And please note, I did not say baptism was essential for Salvation, but that it is important.

---

Seriously, how many times do I have to say that saying water baptism isn't required for salvation is NOT saying that water baptism is not important?

You have constantly been arguing against your own shadow, and yelling at clouds. And you have continuously accused others of exactly what you yourself have been doing.

I'm sorry, but my conversation with you is done. I'm going to move on to people who have a little more self awareness as well as awareness of the topic I've been focusing on.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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I was trying to lighten the mood, Busy. As a Southern Baptist, it would be OK for me to laugh at my own denomination.

You get angry and bitter so very easily, you don't even attempt to understand other perspectives.

As for what Scripture says, I have told you over and over how Jesus made a point of being publicly baptized, and how He baptized believers, and how HIs disciples and apostles did so after Pentecost. The only reasonable meaning one can take from all that, is that Jesus considered baptism to be important.

Before we get into another bicker, can you agree to that part? And please note, I did not say baptism was essential for Salvation, but that it is important.

---

Seriously, how many times do I have to say that saying water baptism isn't required for salvation is NOT saying that water baptism is not important?

You have constantly been arguing against your own shadow, and yelling at clouds. And you have continuously accused others of exactly what you yourself have been doing.

I'm sorry, but my conversation with you is done. I'm going to move on to people who have a little more self awareness as well as awareness of the topic I've been focusing on.

---

Proving your ability to grasp the point is not unlike your sense of humor ...

Chamberman said:

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Is all of this knowledge regarding salvation useful in determining if someone else is "redeemed" or not?

If so, why?

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Some like to keep score. If you care about the person, then it matters whether you are helping them find their way, not whether you can brag about it.

Coke Bear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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[You don't seem to understand the equivocating nature of the Catholic position that you've explained.

You've explained that according to Catholicism a person who did not get water baptized can still be saved if they desired baptism, or that they would have desired baptism if they knew it was required. So isn't this saying that it ISN'T required? How can it be required and not required at the same time?

I asked you at least twice about this contradiction, but didn't receive an answer both times.

---

I try to explain the Catholic stance a little better. First the Church is typically not a religion of Either / Or. It is, often times, a religion of Both / And.

Back to baptism. Yes, one must be baptized to enter the Kingdom of God. Jesus is explicit about this in John 3:5. One can be baptized by water, blood, or desire.

Water Pretty obviously. The Church allows for immersion or pouring.

Blood Bearing witness to Christ by being martyred in for faith in Jesus prior to one being water-baptized. One example was the 21 Coptics that beheaded several years ago by Muslims for their beliefs. 20 of them were Christian, but the 21st was not. His willingness to die with the other in defense of Jesus and His Church makes his baptism of blood.

Desire Hearing and accepting the message of Jesus with a desire to be baptized, but dying before they are able to be baptized. For example, 1000's of people across the country are desiring to enter the Catholic Church. For most, this process takes about a year of classes or religious instruction called RCIA Rite of Christian Initiation of Adults. They have accepted Jesus's message and desire to enter the Church. This usually enter the Christian community at the Easter Vigil Mass (on the Saturday eve of Easter Sunday). They are baptized (if not already baptized) and receive the other two sacraments of Confirmation and the First Communion. If they were to die before they were baptized, the was be saved, because they expressed the desire for baptism. That would be their baptism.

In all three of these situations, a person IS getting baptized.

No contradictions. If this explaination is not clear, please let me know. You may not accept it, (that's not my job I'm here to plant seeds and let the Holy Spirit do the work.) but I hope that that I better explained it.

---

You also said that the Catholic position was that if someone would have desired water baptism if they knew it was required for salvation, then they are saved. So here is a list of those people according to the Catholic Church who are saved, and who did NOT get water baptized:

• martyrs
• those who desired baptism but didn't get it

• those who didn't get, or even desire baptism, but would have desired it if they knew it was required

Because NONE of these people got water baptized, but still are saved, then evidently water baptism is NOT required according to the Catholic Church. It seems the Church is trying to get around this obvious contradiction by manipulating words and meanings.

Oldbear83 said:

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Chamberman said:

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Is all of this knowledge regarding salvation useful in determining if someone else is "redeemed" or not?

If so, why?

---

Some like to keep score. If you care about the person, then it matters whether you are helping them find their way, not whether you can brag about it.

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Keep score, interesting. I get the part about caring about another. What about strangers? Sure, we are to love our neighbors as we love ourselves, but does that extend to making declaritive judgments on their individual salvation?

Chamberman said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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Chamberman said:

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Is all of this knowledge regarding salvation useful in determining if someone else is "redeemed" or not?

If so, why?

---

Some like to keep score. If you care about the person, then it matters whether you are helping them find their way, not whether you can brag about it.

---

Keep score, interesting. I get the part about caring about another. What about strangers? Sure, we are to love our neighbors as we love ourselves, but does that extend to making declaritive judgments on their individual salvation?

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Hard to say what the motive is.

It's hard enough to be the person we want to be. On those occasions when I do what I know Jesus wants. I feel good about helping someone. Looking at Christ's example, he always started by just talking to people and helping them with the obvious need (hunger, worry, pain) and got around to the religion part after that.

We have a hard time, all of us, keeping that order straight.

Chamberman said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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Chamberman said:

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Is all of this knowledge regarding salvation useful in determining if someone else is "redeemed" or not?

If so, why?

---

Some like to keep score. If you care about the person, then it matters whether you are helping them find their way, not whether you can brag about it.

---

Keep score, interesting. I get the part about caring about another. What about strangers? Sure, we are to love our neighbors as we love ourselves, but does that extend to making declaritive judgments on their individual salvation?

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It isn't about "keeping score". It's about pursuing truth, especially regarding the most important thing in life, our salvation. For some reason, this person wants to mischaracterize it that way.

This isn't about making declarative judgements on others' salvation. It's about knowing what is required for salvation, not just for yourself, but also for when you tell others the gospel. Don't you think it'd be very important to know whether or not water baptism is required for salvation? Meaning, even if you believe in Jesus and trust in him for your salvation, you'd still go to hell if you weren't water baptized. Wouldn't that be something immensely important to know, for yourself and for others?

Oldbear83 said:

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I was trying to lighten the mood, Busy. As a Southern Baptist, it would be OK for me to laugh at my own denomination.

You get angry and bitter so very easily, you don't even attempt to understand other perspectives.

As for what Scripture says, I have told you over and over how Jesus made a point of being publicly baptized, and how He baptized believers, and how HIs disciples and apostles did so after Pentecost. The only reasonable meaning one can take from all that, is that Jesus considered baptism to be important.

Before we get into another bicker, can you agree to that part? And please note, I did not say baptism was essential for Salvation, but that it is important.

---

I had been a Southern Baptist and a Worship Leader in the Southern Baptist Church for 15 years and I can tell you with 100% certainty that Southern Baptists do NOT believe that Baptism saves or has any part in Salvation. I left my Church 2 1/2 years ago.

No one here said that Water Baptism wasn't important. We said it's not necessary for SALVATION. It's an act of Obedience, an Ordinance that is practiced AFTER Salvation as a picture of the Death, Burial and Resurrection of Christ.

saabing bear said:

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xfrodobagginsx said:

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It's the Gospel that saves, not water Baptism:

Not one mention of Water Baptism in the Gospel. Water Baptism is a symbol of the Spiritual Birth that occurs once we place our Faith in Jesus Christ to save us, believing that He died and rose again as a Sacrifice for our sins.

---

"Water baptism" is redundant. The Greek word baptizo means to be immersed in water. John the Baptizer said Jesus would baptize with fire and the Holy Spirit. We receive the Holy Spirit at baptism (Acts 2:38). There is no reason to believe this spiritual act happens separate and without immersion in water.

---

Are you sure about that? Look later in the book of Acts (10:44-48):

"While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all who heard his message. All the circumcised believers who had accompanied Peter were astounded that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. For they heard them speaking in tongues and exalting God.

Then Peter said, "Can anyone withhold the water to baptize these people? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have!" So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to stay for a few days."


Here, it is clear that the Holy Spirit came to the believers first, then AFTER that they were baptized.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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You also said that the Catholic position was that if someone would have desired water baptism if they knew it was required for salvation, then they are saved. So here is a list of those people according to the Catholic Church who are saved, and who did NOT get water baptized:

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I'm not sure if I've ever used the phrase 'water baptism'. If so, please note that it's only because that it the normative method of baptism for 99.99 % of people. I've said that baptism is required for salvation.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

• martyrs
• those who desired baptism but didn't get it

---

These people are baptized. Martyrs by blood and the second grouping by their desire.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

• those who didn't get, or even desire baptism, but would have desired it if they knew it was required

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Would God be a just God if He held people accountable for something that they did not know?

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Because NONE of these people got water baptized, but still are saved, then evidently water baptism is NOT required according to the Catholic Church. It seems the Church is trying to get around this obvious contradiction by manipulating words and meanings.

---

It seems like you are being very legalistic about this. Baptism is required for salvation; however, as I've stated several times on this post, We are bound by the sacraments, God isn't.

God can extend his mercy and grace to whom He wishes.

Taking a step back here … Please allow me to ask you this:

What do you think Baptism is?
What do you think it does?
What is your basis for these answers?

Coke Bear said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

You also said that the Catholic position was that if someone would have desired water baptism if they knew it was required for salvation, then they are saved. So here is a list of those people according to the Catholic Church who are saved, and who did NOT get water baptized:

---

I'm not sure if I've ever used the phrase 'water baptism'. If so, please note that it's only because that it the normative method of baptism for 99.99 % of people. I've said that baptism is required for salvation.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

• martyrs
• those who desired baptism but didn't get it

---

These people are baptized. Martyrs by blood and the second grouping by their desire.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

• those who didn't get, or even desire baptism, but would have desired it if they knew it was required

---

Would God be a just God if He held people accountable for something that they did not know?

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Because NONE of these people got water baptized, but still are saved, then evidently water baptism is NOT required according to the Catholic Church. It seems the Church is trying to get around this obvious contradiction by manipulating words and meanings.

---

It seems like you are being very legalistic about this. Baptism is required for salvation; however, as I've stated several times on this post, We are bound by the sacraments, God isn't.

God can extend his mercy and grace to whom He wishes.

Taking a step back here … Please allow me to ask you this:

What do you think Baptism is?
What do you think it does?
What is your basis for these answers?

---

The topic was clearly whether water baptism is required for salvation. Your answer appears to be no. We are in agreement.

It's not being "legalistic" for wanting words to mean what they mean. If water baptism is required for salvation, then it means that without immersing yourself in water during baptism you go to hell despite everything else.

"Would God be a just God if He held people accountable for something that they did not know?" - of course not, that's why I'm saying water baptism being required for salvation doesn't seem right.

To answer your questions, what I believe about baptism is best summarized here: https://www.gotquestions.org/Christian-baptism.html

What does the Catholic church believe happens at water baptism?

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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The topic was clearly whether water baptism is required for salvation. Your answer appears to be no. We are in agreement.

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Actually we disagree, but that's OK. I'm saying that baptism is required for salvation.

Coke Bear said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

The topic was clearly whether water baptism is required for salvation. Your answer appears to be no. We are in agreement.

---

Actually we disagree, but that's OK. I'm saying that baptism is required for salvation.

---

So you believe water baptism to be required for salvation, or are you equivocating here? If you're saying you do, then you are contradicting yourself as explained.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

What does the Catholic church believe happens at water baptism?

---

Before I respond to that I would also like to explain what Catholics believe about original sin. I'm not trying to be condescending, I really don't know what other faiths believe about it.

Original sin is something that were born with. In reality, it is not something we have, but rather something that we lack. Due to the fall of our first parents, we ALL lack sanctifying grace. Loosely, we have a hole in us. When we are baptized, our sins (including original sin) are washed away and we filled with sanctifying grace.

I'm going to use the Catechism of the Catholic Church for specifics here (please take time to read this short, but incredibly rich section of the CCC:

ARTICLE 1
THE SACRAMENT OF BAPTISM
1213 Holy Baptism is the basis of the whole Christian life, the gateway to life in the Spirit (vitae spiritualis ianua),4 and the door which gives access to the other sacraments. Through Baptism we are freed from sin and reborn as sons of God; we become members of Christ, are incorporated into the Church and made sharers in her mission: "Baptism is the sacrament of regeneration through water in the word."5

I. WHAT IS THIS SACRAMENT CALLED?
1214 This sacrament is called Baptism, after the central rite by which it is carried out: to baptize (Greek baptizein) means to "plunge" or "immerse"; the "plunge" into the water symbolizes the catechumen's burial into Christ's death, from which he rises up by resurrection with him, as "a new creature."6
1215 This sacrament is also called "the washing of regeneration and renewal by the Holy Spirit," for it signifies and actually brings about the birth of water and the Spirit without which no one "can enter the kingdom of God."7

VI. THE NECESSITY OF BAPTISM
1257 The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation.60 He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them.61 Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament.62 The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are "reborn of water and the Spirit." God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.
For the forgiveness of sins . . .
1263 By Baptism all sins are forgiven, original sin and all personal sins, as well as all punishment for sin.66 In those who have been reborn nothing remains that would impede their entry into the Kingdom of God, neither Adam's sin, nor personal sin, nor the consequences of sin, the gravest of which is separation from God.

Footnotes of bible references and Counsil documents are listed in the attached link.

Coke Bear said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

What does the Catholic church believe happens at water baptism?

---

Before I respond to that I would also like to explain what Catholics believe about original sin. I'm not trying to be condescending, I really don't know what other faiths believe about it.

Original sin is something that were born with. In reality, it is not something we have, but rather something that we lack. Due to the fall of our first parents, we ALL lack sanctifying grace. Loosely, we have a hole in us. When we are baptized, our sins (including original sin) are washed away and we filled with sanctifying grace.

I'm going to use the Catechism of the Catholic Church for specifics here (please take time to read this short, but incredibly rich section of the CCC:

ARTICLE 1
THE SACRAMENT OF BAPTISM
1213 Holy Baptism is the basis of the whole Christian life, the gateway to life in the Spirit (vitae spiritualis ianua),4 and the door which gives access to the other sacraments. Through Baptism we are freed from sin and reborn as sons of God; we become members of Christ, are incorporated into the Church and made sharers in her mission: "Baptism is the sacrament of regeneration through water in the word."5

I. WHAT IS THIS SACRAMENT CALLED?
1214 This sacrament is called Baptism, after the central rite by which it is carried out: to baptize (Greek baptizein) means to "plunge" or "immerse"; the "plunge" into the water symbolizes the catechumen's burial into Christ's death, from which he rises up by resurrection with him, as "a new creature."6
1215 This sacrament is also called "the washing of regeneration and renewal by the Holy Spirit," for it signifies and actually brings about the birth of water and the Spirit without which no one "can enter the kingdom of God."7

VI. THE NECESSITY OF BAPTISM
1257 The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation.60 He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them.61 Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament.62 The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are "reborn of water and the Spirit." God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.
For the forgiveness of sins . . .
1263 By Baptism all sins are forgiven, original sin and all personal sins, as well as all punishment for sin.66 In those who have been reborn nothing remains that would impede their entry into the Kingdom of God, neither Adam's sin, nor personal sin, nor the consequences of sin, the gravest of which is separation from God.

Footnotes of bible references and Counsil documents are listed in the attached link.

---

Sacrament=Not a Biblical Word. FALSE Doctrine.

There is water Baptism and there is the Holy Spirit Baptism.

Mr 1:8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.

Mt 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

Ac 1:5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
(KJV)

Joh 1:33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.

It is the Holy Ghost Baptism that saves, NOT Water Baptism:

1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. {Gentiles: Gr. Greeks}

Eph 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
(KJV)


Is Baptism necessary for Salvation? YES
Is WATER Baptism necessary for Salvation? NO
It is the Holy Spirit that Baptizes unto Salvation and into Christ.
Is WATER Immersion Baptism a symbol of the Death and Resurrection of Christ? YES

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Sacrament=Not a Biblical Word. FALSE Doctrine.

---

Trinity is not a Biblical Word. It must be a false doctrine. Bible is not a Biblical word. It must also be false doctrine. Personal Savior is not a Biblical word. It must also be false doctrine.

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Is WATER Immersion Baptism a symbol of the Death and Resurrection of Christ? YES

---

Please site the verse that says that Baptism is "a symbol of Death and Resurrection of Christ."

Coke Bear said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

What does the Catholic church believe happens at water baptism?

---

VI. THE NECESSITY OF BAPTISM
1257 The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation.60 He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them.61 Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament.62 The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are "reborn of water and the Spirit." God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.
For the forgiveness of sins . . .
1263 By Baptism all sins are forgiven, original sin and all personal sins, as well as all punishment for sin.66 In those who have been reborn nothing remains that would impede their entry into the Kingdom of God, neither Adam's sin, nor personal sin, nor the consequences of sin, the gravest of which is separation from God.

Footnotes of bible references and Counsil documents are listed in the attached link.

---

Regarding the highlighted part above:

How is it that by baptism all sins are forgiven and the punishment for them removed, when in Revelation 1:5 it says it was the blood of Christ that does that?

"Grace to you and peace from him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven spirits who are before his throne, and from Jesus Christ the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of kings on earth.

To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood and made us a kingdom, priests to his God and Father, to him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen."

Is the catechism referring to "baptism" as being baptized through Jesus' sacrifice, i.e. his blood? If so, then what does water baptism achieve, specifically, according to the Catholic church?

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood and made us a kingdom, priests to his God and Father, to him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen."

Is the catechism referring to "baptism" as being baptized through Jesus' sacrifice, i.e. his blood? If so, then what does water baptism achieve, specifically, according to the Catholic church?

---

Good question.

That paragraph in the CCC has a footnote stating that it came from Council of Florence, which was written nearly 600 years ago (1439). Please give me some time to research what the what the Council meant with that language.

xfrodobagginsx said:

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Sacrament=Not a Biblical Word. FALSE Doctrine.

---

An addendum to my other response to this portion of your post ...

The word Sacrament comes from the Latin sacramentum, which means oath. Please note that the Eastern (Orthodox) Church may use the term Mysteries.

A sacrament is outward sign of an invisible grace.

The following Church fathers wrote about sacraments:

IGNATIUS OF ANTIOCH - 110
TERTULLIAN - 203
COUNCIL OF CARTHAGE - 256
SERAPION - 350
John Chrysostom - 387
St. Ambrose - circa 374
St. Augustine - 412
Peter Damian - circa 1020
II Council of Lyons - 1274
Council of Florence 1439
Thomas Aquinas - 1485

* Martin Luther - 1520
* John Calvin - 1536

* Only believed in two sacraments, but they still used the term "sacrament."

My question to you is how can you consider this FALSE Doctrine when it has been written about (by some of the smartest men in history) since the beginning of the Church?

Your Dispensational theology is less than 200 years old and didn't really get any traction until the last 100. Why should I trust or believe this theology (that's in its 3rd iteration) that has never been taught before?

Coke Bear said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Sacrament=Not a Biblical Word. FALSE Doctrine.

---

Trinity is not a Biblical Word. It must be a false doctrine. Bible is not a Biblical word. It must also be false doctrine. Personal Savior is not a Biblical word. It must also be false doctrine.

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Is WATER Immersion Baptism a symbol of the Death and Resurrection of Christ? YES

---

Please site the verse that says that Baptism is "a symbol of Death and Resurrection of Christ."

---

Sacraments are NOT part of Salvation. It is something that the Catholic Church tries to ADD to God's Plan of Salvation by Grace through Faith alone, believing that Jesus died and rose again as the Sacrifice for our sins.

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Coke Bear said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

What does the Catholic church believe happens at water baptism?

---

Before I respond to that I would also like to explain what Catholics believe about original sin. I'm not trying to be condescending, I really don't know what other faiths believe about it.

Original sin is something that were born with. In reality, it is not something we have, but rather something that we lack. Due to the fall of our first parents, we ALL lack sanctifying grace. Loosely, we have a hole in us. When we are baptized, our sins (including original sin) are washed away and we filled with sanctifying grace.

I'm going to use the Catechism of the Catholic Church for specifics here (please take time to read this short, but incredibly rich section of the CCC:

ARTICLE 1
THE SACRAMENT OF BAPTISM
1213 Holy Baptism is the basis of the whole Christian life, the gateway to life in the Spirit (vitae spiritualis ianua),4 and the door which gives access to the other sacraments. Through Baptism we are freed from sin and reborn as sons of God; we become members of Christ, are incorporated into the Church and made sharers in her mission: "Baptism is the sacrament of regeneration through water in the word."5

I. WHAT IS THIS SACRAMENT CALLED?
1214 This sacrament is called Baptism, after the central rite by which it is carried out: to baptize (Greek baptizein) means to "plunge" or "immerse"; the "plunge" into the water symbolizes the catechumen's burial into Christ's death, from which he rises up by resurrection with him, as "a new creature."6
1215 This sacrament is also called "the washing of regeneration and renewal by the Holy Spirit," for it signifies and actually brings about the birth of water and the Spirit without which no one "can enter the kingdom of God."7

VI. THE NECESSITY OF BAPTISM
1257 The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation.60 He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them.61 Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament.62 The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are "reborn of water and the Spirit." God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.
For the forgiveness of sins . . .
1263 By Baptism all sins are forgiven, original sin and all personal sins, as well as all punishment for sin.66 In those who have been reborn nothing remains that would impede their entry into the Kingdom of God, neither Adam's sin, nor personal sin, nor the consequences of sin, the gravest of which is separation from God.

Footnotes of bible references and Counsil documents are listed in the attached link.

---

Sacrament=Not a Biblical Word. FALSE Doctrine.

There is water Baptism and there is the Holy Spirit Baptism.

Mr 1:8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.

Mt 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

Ac 1:5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
(KJV)

Joh 1:33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.

It is the Holy Ghost Baptism that saves, NOT Water Baptism:

1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. {Gentiles: Gr. Greeks}

Eph 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
(KJV)


Is Baptism necessary for Salvation? YES
Is WATER Baptism necessary for Salvation? NO
It is the Holy Spirit that Baptizes unto Salvation and into Christ.
Is WATER Immersion Baptism a symbol of the Death and Resurrection of Christ? YES

---

Seriously, you're just embarrassing yourself. Dispensationalism=not a Biblical word. FALSE doctrine. See how that works? Probably not...smh. You seem to be blinded by some form of anti-Catholic thinking that renders your judgment clouded. Why so hung up on sacramentum/mysterion?

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Then Peter said, "Can anyone withhold the water to baptize these people? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have!" So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to stay for a few days."


Here, it is clear that the Holy Spirit came to the believers first, then AFTER that they were baptized.

---

These people received the Holy Spirit before baptism. It does not say they were saved before baptism.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

How is it that by baptism all sins are forgiven and the punishment for them removed, when in Revelation 1:5 it says it was the blood of Christ that does that?

---

Romans 6: 3,4 states that at baptism we are united with Christ in his death, burial, and resurrection. You can not separate Christ's blood from baptism.

Too many play a game of either/or with things that are united.