Ok, so that's the same scenario but on a macro scale: what if protestants believe the Holy Spirit is telling them that what the magisterium declared is actually false? And naturally, the magisterium is claimed to be influenced by the Holy Spirit as well. How do you then decide?Sam Lowry said:That's why we have the magisterium.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:But what if one says that the Holy Spirit is telling them to allow gay marriage in Church, because it is loving of gays.....but the other says the Holy Spirit is telling them to NOT allow gay marriage in church, because that is loving toward God (and loving gays "as themselves", meaning that to love someone means they shouldn't encourage the sin of that person)? Both say they are following those two greatest commandments.Waco1947 said:
Great question!
BTD said "So what do you do when you have two people who claim revelation from God, but they contradict each other? Which is correct? They can't both be, if God and His Holy Spirit is not divided. Upon what standard of truth will you decide?"
1. "if God and His Holy Spirit is not divided." Neither God nor the Holy Spirit are divided rather humans are divided on their interpretations of God and the Holy Spirit. The overwhelming witness of Scripture is that God is love and by the Holy Spirit we know that love. Psalm 143:10
"Teach me to do your will, for you are my God. Let your good spirit lead me on a level path.
Love is not divided. God is love .
2. You ask, "Upon what standard of truth will you decide?" Let I John 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another, because love is from God; everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. 8 Whoever does not love does not know God, for God is love."
The standard of truth is that which reveals God's love. All other standards are secondary and judged by love.
J
3. esus reduced the commandments to two Matthew 22: "37 Jesus replied: "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'"
Then this note by Jesus "40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."
I would suggest all interpretation of scripture rests on these two commandments.
If any belief or dogma or interpretation falls outside of the love commandment then it is false.
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Please show me where I can that Jesus is the only intercessor.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
No, I didn't confuse anything. Jesus is our only intercessor before God.
I was referring to Jesus as our one intercessor before God. We can certainly pray for others and therefore be intercessors for them in that sense as the bible teaches. However, nowhere does the bible teach us to pray to those we think are in heaven for them to act as our intercessors for Jesus. You can't even know for sure who's in heaven and who's not, let alone know if they can even hear you. We are told to pray to Jesus directly. Believing that isn't enough is diminishing Jesus' nature and character.Coke Bear said:Please show me where I can that Jesus is the only intercessor.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
No, I didn't confuse anything. Jesus is our only intercessor before God.
What other do in thier private lives is none of anyones buisness as long as they are not hurting another human being. It is so amazing to me that in this day and age people still are so superstitious they belive in books and beliefs that come from ancient mankind none of whom had the knowledge we have today of who we are and where we came from. Most Christians don't even know the history of their own belief system which came from Persian captors and a myriad.of other mystery relgions...it is undeniable that all of us came from an ancient ape ancestor we still think a some point we committed a sin and came from Adam and eve. What a joke. God in man's form, sacrifice an animal and equally a God human for mankind , virgin births all predated Christianity. Yet we pray for football teams health while 100 of thousand innocent children diemon this planet each day from starvation and disease. I COULD GO ON FOR DAYS BUT IT WILL FALL IN DEAL EARS, THE SAME WAY ALL THOSE NORMAL FOLKS DID NOT LISTEN TO ME BUT INSTEAD JOINED DAVID KORESHES CULT.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Ok, so that's the same scenario but on a macro scale: what if protestants believe the Holy Spirit is telling them that what the magisterium declared is actually false? And naturally, the magisterium is claimed to be influenced by the Holy Spirit as well. How do you then decide?Sam Lowry said:That's why we have the magisterium.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:But what if one says that the Holy Spirit is telling them to allow gay marriage in Church, because it is loving of gays.....but the other says the Holy Spirit is telling them to NOT allow gay marriage in church, because that is loving toward God (and loving gays "as themselves", meaning that to love someone means they shouldn't encourage the sin of that person)? Both say they are following those two greatest commandments.Waco1947 said:
Great question!
BTD said "So what do you do when you have two people who claim revelation from God, but they contradict each other? Which is correct? They can't both be, if God and His Holy Spirit is not divided. Upon what standard of truth will you decide?"
1. "if God and His Holy Spirit is not divided." Neither God nor the Holy Spirit are divided rather humans are divided on their interpretations of God and the Holy Spirit. The overwhelming witness of Scripture is that God is love and by the Holy Spirit we know that love. Psalm 143:10
"Teach me to do your will, for you are my God. Let your good spirit lead me on a level path.
Love is not divided. God is love .
2. You ask, "Upon what standard of truth will you decide?" Let I John 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another, because love is from God; everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. 8 Whoever does not love does not know God, for God is love."
The standard of truth is that which reveals God's love. All other standards are secondary and judged by love.
J
3. esus reduced the commandments to two Matthew 22: "37 Jesus replied: "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'"
Then this note by Jesus "40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."
I would suggest all interpretation of scripture rests on these two commandments.
If any belief or dogma or interpretation falls outside of the love commandment then it is false.
BusyTarpDuster2017 said:I was referring to Jesus as our one intercessor before God. We can certainly pray for others and therefore be intercessors for them in that sense as the bible teaches. However, nowhere does the bible teach us to pray to those we think are in heaven for them to act as our intercessors for Jesus. You can't even know for sure who's in heaven and who's not, let alone know if they can even hear you. We are told to pray to Jesus directly. Believing that isn't enough is diminishing Jesus' nature and character.Coke Bear said:Please show me where I can that Jesus is the only intercessor.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
No, I didn't confuse anything. Jesus is our only intercessor before God.
So now you are claiming that believing in intercessory prayer other than to/through Jesus is diminishing Jesus' nature and character? That's certainly not Biblical.
joseywales said:What other do in thier private lives is none of anyones buisness as long as they are not hurting another human being. It is so amazing to me that in this day and age people still are so superstitious they belive in books and beliefs that come from ancient mankind none of whom had the knowledge we have today of who we are and where we came from. Most Christians don't even know the history of their own belief system which came from Persian captors and a myriad.of other mystery relgions...it is undeniable that all of us came from an ancient ape ancestor we still think a some point we committed a sin and came from Adam and eve. What a joke. God in man's form, sacrifice an animal and equally a God human for mankind , virgin births all predated Christianity. Yet we pray for football teams health while 100 of thousand innocent children diemon this planet each day from starvation and disease. I COULD GO ON FOR DAYS BUT IT WILL FALL IN DEAL EARS, THE SAME WAY ALL THOSE NORMAL FOLKS DID NOT LISTEN TO ME BUT INSTEAD JOINED DAVID KORESHES CULT.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Ok, so that's the same scenario but on a macro scale: what if protestants believe the Holy Spirit is telling them that what the magisterium declared is actually false? And naturally, the magisterium is claimed to be influenced by the Holy Spirit as well. How do you then decide?Sam Lowry said:That's why we have the magisterium.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:But what if one says that the Holy Spirit is telling them to allow gay marriage in Church, because it is loving of gays.....but the other says the Holy Spirit is telling them to NOT allow gay marriage in church, because that is loving toward God (and loving gays "as themselves", meaning that to love someone means they shouldn't encourage the sin of that person)? Both say they are following those two greatest commandments.Waco1947 said:
Great question!
BTD said "So what do you do when you have two people who claim revelation from God, but they contradict each other? Which is correct? They can't both be, if God and His Holy Spirit is not divided. Upon what standard of truth will you decide?"
1. "if God and His Holy Spirit is not divided." Neither God nor the Holy Spirit are divided rather humans are divided on their interpretations of God and the Holy Spirit. The overwhelming witness of Scripture is that God is love and by the Holy Spirit we know that love. Psalm 143:10
"Teach me to do your will, for you are my God. Let your good spirit lead me on a level path.
Love is not divided. God is love .
2. You ask, "Upon what standard of truth will you decide?" Let I John 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another, because love is from God; everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. 8 Whoever does not love does not know God, for God is love."
The standard of truth is that which reveals God's love. All other standards are secondary and judged by love.
J
3. esus reduced the commandments to two Matthew 22: "37 Jesus replied: "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'"
Then this note by Jesus "40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."
I would suggest all interpretation of scripture rests on these two commandments.
If any belief or dogma or interpretation falls outside of the love commandment then it is false.
I commend to all the works of Alice Linsley, her new book, and her website. Tremendous insight into the origins of the Hebrew people and hence, Christianity. Alice herself has a fascinating history as being one of the first women ordained as priests in the Episcopal Church who later came to see the error of her ways. Check it out:
http://jandyongenesis.blogspot.com/2023/07/please-buy-my-book.html?m=0
Yes, believing that one can not go directly to Jesus, but rather they believe they must have someone else intercede for them, is believing in one's heart that Jesus is not compassionate, loving, gracious, desiring, or powerful enough to hear from you directly and totally. That would be denying what the bible tells us about Jesus nature and character and his willingness to hear from us (John 14:14, Rev 3:20, Hebrews 4:16, Hebrews 7:25, Acts 7:59 and others)curtpenn said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:I was referring to Jesus as our one intercessor before God. We can certainly pray for others and therefore be intercessors for them in that sense as the bible teaches. However, nowhere does the bible teach us to pray to those we think are in heaven for them to act as our intercessors for Jesus. You can't even know for sure who's in heaven and who's not, let alone know if they can even hear you. We are told to pray to Jesus directly. Believing that isn't enough is diminishing Jesus' nature and character.Coke Bear said:Please show me where I can that Jesus is the only intercessor.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
No, I didn't confuse anything. Jesus is our only intercessor before God.
So now you are claiming that believing in intercessory prayer other than to/through Jesus is diminishing Jesus' nature and character? That's certainly not Biblical.
So, given that we believe the truth of this, that Jesus is the one Mediator/Intercessor between God and man, how is it that when I presented you this prayer from The Glories of Mary:Coke Bear said:This is 100% FALSE and unbiblical. 1 Tim 2:5 states that:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
The difference between us is that you rely on the traditions of fallible man, while I rely on the infallible word of God. I reject the belief in "invoking" saints and Mary for intercession, because that is completely unbiblical. This was NEVER taught by Jesus and his apostles, and it was never believed or practiced by the early Church. We are told that we have only ONE intercessor - Jesus. We are to pray, worship, praise, and make supplications from God (Jesus) and Him alone. The only intercessions we are to ask for is through Jesus alone. To believe that one must go through the saints or Mary for intercession is an attack on Jesus' character and nature.
"There is one God and one Mediator who can reconcile God and humanitythe man Christ Jesus."
""Oh immaculate and holy pure virgin Mary, Mother of God, Queen of the World, thou are the joy of the saints, thou art the peacemaker between sinners and God,"
...how is it that you can say there's nothing wrong with this, that Mary is not being elevated to Jesus? I really can't believe that you really believe that. Do you still think this?
Jesus is the ONLY Intercessor. We don't pray to anyone else.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:I was referring to Jesus as our one intercessor before God. We can certainly pray for others and therefore be intercessors for them in that sense as the bible teaches. However, nowhere does the bible teach us to pray to those we think are in heaven for them to act as our intercessors for Jesus. You can't even know for sure who's in heaven and who's not, let alone know if they can even hear you. We are told to pray to Jesus directly. Believing that isn't enough is diminishing Jesus' nature and character.Coke Bear said:Please show me where I can that Jesus is the only intercessor.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
No, I didn't confuse anything. Jesus is our only intercessor before God.
1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
(KJV)
BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Yes, believing that one can not go directly to Jesus, but rather they believe they must have someone else intercede for them, is believing in one's heart that Jesus is not compassionate, loving, gracious, desiring, or powerful enough to hear from you directly and totally. That would be denying what the bible tells us about Jesus nature and character and his willingness to hear from us (John 14:14, Rev 3:20, Hebrews 4:16, Hebrews 7:25, Acts 7:59 and others)curtpenn said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:I was referring to Jesus as our one intercessor before God. We can certainly pray for others and therefore be intercessors for them in that sense as the bible teaches. However, nowhere does the bible teach us to pray to those we think are in heaven for them to act as our intercessors for Jesus. You can't even know for sure who's in heaven and who's not, let alone know if they can even hear you. We are told to pray to Jesus directly. Believing that isn't enough is diminishing Jesus' nature and character.Coke Bear said:Please show me where I can that Jesus is the only intercessor.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
No, I didn't confuse anything. Jesus is our only intercessor before God.
So now you are claiming that believing in intercessory prayer other than to/through Jesus is diminishing Jesus' nature and character? That's certainly not Biblical.
I don't want to put words in your mouth so to be clear are you saying no one should offer up nor request intercessory prayer ever? That's how what you've posted sounds to me.
xfrodobagginsx said:Jesus is the ONLY Intercessor. We don't pray to anyone else.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:I was referring to Jesus as our one intercessor before God. We can certainly pray for others and therefore be intercessors for them in that sense as the bible teaches. However, nowhere does the bible teach us to pray to those we think are in heaven for them to act as our intercessors for Jesus. You can't even know for sure who's in heaven and who's not, let alone know if they can even hear you. We are told to pray to Jesus directly. Believing that isn't enough is diminishing Jesus' nature and character.Coke Bear said:Please show me where I can that Jesus is the only intercessor.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
No, I didn't confuse anything. Jesus is our only intercessor before God.
1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
(KJV)
If I asked you to pray for me would you? If you did, wouldn't you be my intercessor?
Catholics believe that the Holy Spirit guides the Church. Jesus never promised that individuals could discern all truth by interpreting Scripture on their own. When there is disagreement, we rely on the tradition handed down to us from those who were closest to Jesus and the Apostles.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Ok, so that's the same scenario but on a macro scale: what if protestants believe the Holy Spirit is telling them that what the magisterium declared is actually false? And naturally, the magisterium is claimed to be influenced by the Holy Spirit as well. How do you then decide?Sam Lowry said:That's why we have the magisterium.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:But what if one says that the Holy Spirit is telling them to allow gay marriage in Church, because it is loving of gays.....but the other says the Holy Spirit is telling them to NOT allow gay marriage in church, because that is loving toward God (and loving gays "as themselves", meaning that to love someone means they shouldn't encourage the sin of that person)? Both say they are following those two greatest commandments.Waco1947 said:
Great question!
BTD said "So what do you do when you have two people who claim revelation from God, but they contradict each other? Which is correct? They can't both be, if God and His Holy Spirit is not divided. Upon what standard of truth will you decide?"
1. "if God and His Holy Spirit is not divided." Neither God nor the Holy Spirit are divided rather humans are divided on their interpretations of God and the Holy Spirit. The overwhelming witness of Scripture is that God is love and by the Holy Spirit we know that love. Psalm 143:10
"Teach me to do your will, for you are my God. Let your good spirit lead me on a level path.
Love is not divided. God is love .
2. You ask, "Upon what standard of truth will you decide?" Let I John 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another, because love is from God; everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. 8 Whoever does not love does not know God, for God is love."
The standard of truth is that which reveals God's love. All other standards are secondary and judged by love.
J
3. esus reduced the commandments to two Matthew 22: "37 Jesus replied: "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'"
Then this note by Jesus "40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."
I would suggest all interpretation of scripture rests on these two commandments.
If any belief or dogma or interpretation falls outside of the love commandment then it is false.
There is where we divide. Scripture went through a rigorous process before it became Canon. The same cannot be said for 'tradition'.Sam Lowry said:Catholics believe that the Holy Spirit guides the Church. Jesus never promised that individuals could discern all truth by interpreting Scripture on their own. When there is disagreement, we rely on the tradition handed down to us from those who were closest to Jesus and the Apostles.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Ok, so that's the same scenario but on a macro scale: what if protestants believe the Holy Spirit is telling them that what the magisterium declared is actually false? And naturally, the magisterium is claimed to be influenced by the Holy Spirit as well. How do you then decide?Sam Lowry said:That's why we have the magisterium.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:But what if one says that the Holy Spirit is telling them to allow gay marriage in Church, because it is loving of gays.....but the other says the Holy Spirit is telling them to NOT allow gay marriage in church, because that is loving toward God (and loving gays "as themselves", meaning that to love someone means they shouldn't encourage the sin of that person)? Both say they are following those two greatest commandments.Waco1947 said:
Great question!
BTD said "So what do you do when you have two people who claim revelation from God, but they contradict each other? Which is correct? They can't both be, if God and His Holy Spirit is not divided. Upon what standard of truth will you decide?"
1. "if God and His Holy Spirit is not divided." Neither God nor the Holy Spirit are divided rather humans are divided on their interpretations of God and the Holy Spirit. The overwhelming witness of Scripture is that God is love and by the Holy Spirit we know that love. Psalm 143:10
"Teach me to do your will, for you are my God. Let your good spirit lead me on a level path.
Love is not divided. God is love .
2. You ask, "Upon what standard of truth will you decide?" Let I John 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another, because love is from God; everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. 8 Whoever does not love does not know God, for God is love."
The standard of truth is that which reveals God's love. All other standards are secondary and judged by love.
J
3. esus reduced the commandments to two Matthew 22: "37 Jesus replied: "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'"
Then this note by Jesus "40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."
I would suggest all interpretation of scripture rests on these two commandments.
If any belief or dogma or interpretation falls outside of the love commandment then it is false.
With no offense intended, I see the Catholics tradition as the same as writings by C.S. Lewis or Gerald Borchert. That is, inspired but nowhere near Canon.
I also think that we were not meant to have perfect knowledge in this life. The mind does not outrank the heart, and I believe Christ made clear that when in doubt, speak and act in love rather than bitterness.
It's true that not all tradition carries equal weight. But with something like ecumenical councils, there's always a rigorous process. I'm not bitter if everyone doesn't agree. It is a Baptist forum after all.Oldbear83 said:There is where we divide. Scripture went through a rigorous process before it became Canon. The same cannot be said for 'tradition'.Sam Lowry said:Catholics believe that the Holy Spirit guides the Church. Jesus never promised that individuals could discern all truth by interpreting Scripture on their own. When there is disagreement, we rely on the tradition handed down to us from those who were closest to Jesus and the Apostles.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Ok, so that's the same scenario but on a macro scale: what if protestants believe the Holy Spirit is telling them that what the magisterium declared is actually false? And naturally, the magisterium is claimed to be influenced by the Holy Spirit as well. How do you then decide?Sam Lowry said:That's why we have the magisterium.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:But what if one says that the Holy Spirit is telling them to allow gay marriage in Church, because it is loving of gays.....but the other says the Holy Spirit is telling them to NOT allow gay marriage in church, because that is loving toward God (and loving gays "as themselves", meaning that to love someone means they shouldn't encourage the sin of that person)? Both say they are following those two greatest commandments.Waco1947 said:
Great question!
BTD said "So what do you do when you have two people who claim revelation from God, but they contradict each other? Which is correct? They can't both be, if God and His Holy Spirit is not divided. Upon what standard of truth will you decide?"
1. "if God and His Holy Spirit is not divided." Neither God nor the Holy Spirit are divided rather humans are divided on their interpretations of God and the Holy Spirit. The overwhelming witness of Scripture is that God is love and by the Holy Spirit we know that love. Psalm 143:10
"Teach me to do your will, for you are my God. Let your good spirit lead me on a level path.
Love is not divided. God is love .
2. You ask, "Upon what standard of truth will you decide?" Let I John 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another, because love is from God; everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. 8 Whoever does not love does not know God, for God is love."
The standard of truth is that which reveals God's love. All other standards are secondary and judged by love.
J
3. esus reduced the commandments to two Matthew 22: "37 Jesus replied: "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'"
Then this note by Jesus "40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."
I would suggest all interpretation of scripture rests on these two commandments.
If any belief or dogma or interpretation falls outside of the love commandment then it is false.
With no offense intended, I see the Catholics tradition as the same as writings by C.S. Lewis or Gerald Borchert. That is, inspired but nowhere near Canon.
I also think that we were not meant to have perfect knowledge in this life. The mind does not outrank the heart, and I believe Christ made clear that when in doubt, speak and act in love rather than bitterness.
Sam Lowry said:It's true that not all tradition carries equal weight. But with something like ecumenical councils, there's always a rigorous process. I'm not bitter if everyone doesn't agree. It is a Baptist forum after all.Oldbear83 said:There is where we divide. Scripture went through a rigorous process before it became Canon. The same cannot be said for 'tradition'.Sam Lowry said:Catholics believe that the Holy Spirit guides the Church. Jesus never promised that individuals could discern all truth by interpreting Scripture on their own. When there is disagreement, we rely on the tradition handed down to us from those who were closest to Jesus and the Apostles.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Ok, so that's the same scenario but on a macro scale: what if protestants believe the Holy Spirit is telling them that what the magisterium declared is actually false? And naturally, the magisterium is claimed to be influenced by the Holy Spirit as well. How do you then decide?Sam Lowry said:That's why we have the magisterium.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:But what if one says that the Holy Spirit is telling them to allow gay marriage in Church, because it is loving of gays.....but the other says the Holy Spirit is telling them to NOT allow gay marriage in church, because that is loving toward God (and loving gays "as themselves", meaning that to love someone means they shouldn't encourage the sin of that person)? Both say they are following those two greatest commandments.Waco1947 said:
Great question!
BTD said "So what do you do when you have two people who claim revelation from God, but they contradict each other? Which is correct? They can't both be, if God and His Holy Spirit is not divided. Upon what standard of truth will you decide?"
1. "if God and His Holy Spirit is not divided." Neither God nor the Holy Spirit are divided rather humans are divided on their interpretations of God and the Holy Spirit. The overwhelming witness of Scripture is that God is love and by the Holy Spirit we know that love. Psalm 143:10
"Teach me to do your will, for you are my God. Let your good spirit lead me on a level path.
Love is not divided. God is love .
2. You ask, "Upon what standard of truth will you decide?" Let I John 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another, because love is from God; everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. 8 Whoever does not love does not know God, for God is love."
The standard of truth is that which reveals God's love. All other standards are secondary and judged by love.
J
3. esus reduced the commandments to two Matthew 22: "37 Jesus replied: "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'"
Then this note by Jesus "40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."
I would suggest all interpretation of scripture rests on these two commandments.
If any belief or dogma or interpretation falls outside of the love commandment then it is false.
With no offense intended, I see the Catholics tradition as the same as writings by C.S. Lewis or Gerald Borchert. That is, inspired but nowhere near Canon.
I also think that we were not meant to have perfect knowledge in this life. The mind does not outrank the heart, and I believe Christ made clear that when in doubt, speak and act in love rather than bitterness.
A Baptist forum would be angrier, frankly.
Baptist university forum, I guess I should say.Oldbear83 said:Sam Lowry said:It's true that not all tradition carries equal weight. But with something like ecumenical councils, there's always a rigorous process. I'm not bitter if everyone doesn't agree. It is a Baptist forum after all.Oldbear83 said:There is where we divide. Scripture went through a rigorous process before it became Canon. The same cannot be said for 'tradition'.Sam Lowry said:Catholics believe that the Holy Spirit guides the Church. Jesus never promised that individuals could discern all truth by interpreting Scripture on their own. When there is disagreement, we rely on the tradition handed down to us from those who were closest to Jesus and the Apostles.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Ok, so that's the same scenario but on a macro scale: what if protestants believe the Holy Spirit is telling them that what the magisterium declared is actually false? And naturally, the magisterium is claimed to be influenced by the Holy Spirit as well. How do you then decide?Sam Lowry said:That's why we have the magisterium.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:But what if one says that the Holy Spirit is telling them to allow gay marriage in Church, because it is loving of gays.....but the other says the Holy Spirit is telling them to NOT allow gay marriage in church, because that is loving toward God (and loving gays "as themselves", meaning that to love someone means they shouldn't encourage the sin of that person)? Both say they are following those two greatest commandments.Waco1947 said:
Great question!
BTD said "So what do you do when you have two people who claim revelation from God, but they contradict each other? Which is correct? They can't both be, if God and His Holy Spirit is not divided. Upon what standard of truth will you decide?"
1. "if God and His Holy Spirit is not divided." Neither God nor the Holy Spirit are divided rather humans are divided on their interpretations of God and the Holy Spirit. The overwhelming witness of Scripture is that God is love and by the Holy Spirit we know that love. Psalm 143:10
"Teach me to do your will, for you are my God. Let your good spirit lead me on a level path.
Love is not divided. God is love .
2. You ask, "Upon what standard of truth will you decide?" Let I John 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another, because love is from God; everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. 8 Whoever does not love does not know God, for God is love."
The standard of truth is that which reveals God's love. All other standards are secondary and judged by love.
J
3. esus reduced the commandments to two Matthew 22: "37 Jesus replied: "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'"
Then this note by Jesus "40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."
I would suggest all interpretation of scripture rests on these two commandments.
If any belief or dogma or interpretation falls outside of the love commandment then it is false.
With no offense intended, I see the Catholics tradition as the same as writings by C.S. Lewis or Gerald Borchert. That is, inspired but nowhere near Canon.
I also think that we were not meant to have perfect knowledge in this life. The mind does not outrank the heart, and I believe Christ made clear that when in doubt, speak and act in love rather than bitterness.
A Baptist forum would be angrier, frankly.
Not from the departed, but amongst the living. And not if you believe you need someone else's intercessory prayer otherwise Jesus would not be willing nor able to hear or answer you if you go to him directly.curtpenn said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Yes, believing that one can not go directly to Jesus, but rather they believe they must have someone else intercede for them, is believing in one's heart that Jesus is not compassionate, loving, gracious, desiring, or powerful enough to hear from you directly and totally. That would be denying what the bible tells us about Jesus nature and character and his willingness to hear from us (John 14:14, Rev 3:20, Hebrews 4:16, Hebrews 7:25, Acts 7:59 and others)curtpenn said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:I was referring to Jesus as our one intercessor before God. We can certainly pray for others and therefore be intercessors for them in that sense as the bible teaches. However, nowhere does the bible teach us to pray to those we think are in heaven for them to act as our intercessors for Jesus. You can't even know for sure who's in heaven and who's not, let alone know if they can even hear you. We are told to pray to Jesus directly. Believing that isn't enough is diminishing Jesus' nature and character.Coke Bear said:Please show me where I can that Jesus is the only intercessor.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
No, I didn't confuse anything. Jesus is our only intercessor before God.
So now you are claiming that believing in intercessory prayer other than to/through Jesus is diminishing Jesus' nature and character? That's certainly not Biblical.
I don't want to put words in your mouth so to be clear are you saying no one should offer up nor request intercessory prayer ever? ....
But what if that tradition can't be traced to Jesus or the apostles, and even goes against Scripture? See my example with the Immaculate Conception. Therein lies the problem with the Catholic Church claiming ultimate authority. They can just declare that a tradition goes back to Jesus and his apostles and is fully supported by Scripture, and ONLY THEY have the authority to decide what Scripture says. What gave them that authority? Well, Scripture of course! It's circular, so if bad teaching or tradition, or even outright heresy were to infiltrate the Church, it could potentially get reinforced instead of rightfully discarded.Sam Lowry said:Catholics believe that the Holy Spirit guides the Church. Jesus never promised that individuals could discern all truth by interpreting Scripture on their own. When there is disagreement, we rely on the tradition handed down to us from those who were closest to Jesus and the Apostles.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Ok, so that's the same scenario but on a macro scale: what if protestants believe the Holy Spirit is telling them that what the magisterium declared is actually false? And naturally, the magisterium is claimed to be influenced by the Holy Spirit as well. How do you then decide?Sam Lowry said:That's why we have the magisterium.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:But what if one says that the Holy Spirit is telling them to allow gay marriage in Church, because it is loving of gays.....but the other says the Holy Spirit is telling them to NOT allow gay marriage in church, because that is loving toward God (and loving gays "as themselves", meaning that to love someone means they shouldn't encourage the sin of that person)? Both say they are following those two greatest commandments.Waco1947 said:
Great question!
BTD said "So what do you do when you have two people who claim revelation from God, but they contradict each other? Which is correct? They can't both be, if God and His Holy Spirit is not divided. Upon what standard of truth will you decide?"
1. "if God and His Holy Spirit is not divided." Neither God nor the Holy Spirit are divided rather humans are divided on their interpretations of God and the Holy Spirit. The overwhelming witness of Scripture is that God is love and by the Holy Spirit we know that love. Psalm 143:10
"Teach me to do your will, for you are my God. Let your good spirit lead me on a level path.
Love is not divided. God is love .
2. You ask, "Upon what standard of truth will you decide?" Let I John 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another, because love is from God; everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. 8 Whoever does not love does not know God, for God is love."
The standard of truth is that which reveals God's love. All other standards are secondary and judged by love.
J
3. esus reduced the commandments to two Matthew 22: "37 Jesus replied: "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'"
Then this note by Jesus "40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."
I would suggest all interpretation of scripture rests on these two commandments.
If any belief or dogma or interpretation falls outside of the love commandment then it is false.
Jesus never promised that his Church would not be attacked by Satan, only that it would not fail overall. He did promise, however, that false teachers and prophets would indeed come, and that some will be led astray by them. We are taught in Scripture how to guard against this - we are to test everything against his Word, even what church leaders say. We are not taught in Scripture to just accept whatever our leaders tell us. Why? Because man is fallible, but Scripture is infallible. Even Peter, the so-called first Pope, just shortly after he was supposedly given the keys to Jesus' kingdom and authority over his Church, was told by Jesus to "Get behind me Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the concerns of God, but merely human concerns." Jesus called Peter, the guy who had supposedly just been appointed father of the Church, SATAN!! He was saying Peter was speaking for Satan! Can there be any clearer of an indication to the Catholic Church that even their leaders aren't immune to being terribly, terribly led astray?
One of the best guiding principles from Jesus is this: "you will know them by their fruits". Here are some of the "fruits" of the Catholic Church: Mary is declared to have been sinless and declared to have been bodily assumed into heaven, where she is prayed to and acts as an intercessor for sinners. Does that sound like anybody we know? Furthermore, Mary is declared to be "sovereign", the "salvation of the universe", a "Mediatrix", "peacemaker between sinners and God", "our hope and joy", "ruler of our house", "the glory of heaven" and to whom one can "entrust their soul and eternal salvation".
This is clear, blatant, and egregious heresy and idolatry. It is elevating Mary to the level and role of Jesus Christ, and gives her the credit and praise for what Jesus did. Folks, if you can't see this, then there is no doubt - you have absolutely no discernment whatsoever. Absolutely NONE. You are completely deceived and you've been duped into reawakened pagan goddess worship. This is brought to you by the Roman Catholic Church, who claims to be guided by the Holy Spirit. If there is any clearer of an indicator for the need of Sola Scriptura than this, I don't know what it is.
It's all about what the Word of God says NO Tradition trumps Scripture and we are not bound by Mans Traditions, but by the Word of God:Sam Lowry said:It's true that not all tradition carries equal weight. But with something like ecumenical councils, there's always a rigorous process. I'm not bitter if everyone doesn't agree. It is a Baptist forum after all.Oldbear83 said:There is where we divide. Scripture went through a rigorous process before it became Canon. The same cannot be said for 'tradition'.Sam Lowry said:Catholics believe that the Holy Spirit guides the Church. Jesus never promised that individuals could discern all truth by interpreting Scripture on their own. When there is disagreement, we rely on the tradition handed down to us from those who were closest to Jesus and the Apostles.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Ok, so that's the same scenario but on a macro scale: what if protestants believe the Holy Spirit is telling them that what the magisterium declared is actually false? And naturally, the magisterium is claimed to be influenced by the Holy Spirit as well. How do you then decide?Sam Lowry said:That's why we have the magisterium.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:But what if one says that the Holy Spirit is telling them to allow gay marriage in Church, because it is loving of gays.....but the other says the Holy Spirit is telling them to NOT allow gay marriage in church, because that is loving toward God (and loving gays "as themselves", meaning that to love someone means they shouldn't encourage the sin of that person)? Both say they are following those two greatest commandments.Waco1947 said:
Great question!
BTD said "So what do you do when you have two people who claim revelation from God, but they contradict each other? Which is correct? They can't both be, if God and His Holy Spirit is not divided. Upon what standard of truth will you decide?"
1. "if God and His Holy Spirit is not divided." Neither God nor the Holy Spirit are divided rather humans are divided on their interpretations of God and the Holy Spirit. The overwhelming witness of Scripture is that God is love and by the Holy Spirit we know that love. Psalm 143:10
"Teach me to do your will, for you are my God. Let your good spirit lead me on a level path.
Love is not divided. God is love .
2. You ask, "Upon what standard of truth will you decide?" Let I John 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another, because love is from God; everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. 8 Whoever does not love does not know God, for God is love."
The standard of truth is that which reveals God's love. All other standards are secondary and judged by love.
J
3. esus reduced the commandments to two Matthew 22: "37 Jesus replied: "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'"
Then this note by Jesus "40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."
I would suggest all interpretation of scripture rests on these two commandments.
If any belief or dogma or interpretation falls outside of the love commandment then it is false.
With no offense intended, I see the Catholics tradition as the same as writings by C.S. Lewis or Gerald Borchert. That is, inspired but nowhere near Canon.
I also think that we were not meant to have perfect knowledge in this life. The mind does not outrank the heart, and I believe Christ made clear that when in doubt, speak and act in love rather than bitterness.
Mr 7:8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
Mr 7:9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition. {reject: or, frustrate}
Mr 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. {rudiments: or, elements} {make a prey: or, seduce you, or, lead you astray}
BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Not from the departed, but amongst the living. And not if you believe you need someone else's intercessory prayer otherwise Jesus would not be willing nor able to hear or answer you if you go to him directly.curtpenn said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Yes, believing that one can not go directly to Jesus, but rather they believe they must have someone else intercede for them, is believing in one's heart that Jesus is not compassionate, loving, gracious, desiring, or powerful enough to hear from you directly and totally. That would be denying what the bible tells us about Jesus nature and character and his willingness to hear from us (John 14:14, Rev 3:20, Hebrews 4:16, Hebrews 7:25, Acts 7:59 and others)curtpenn said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:I was referring to Jesus as our one intercessor before God. We can certainly pray for others and therefore be intercessors for them in that sense as the bible teaches. However, nowhere does the bible teach us to pray to those we think are in heaven for them to act as our intercessors for Jesus. You can't even know for sure who's in heaven and who's not, let alone know if they can even hear you. We are told to pray to Jesus directly. Believing that isn't enough is diminishing Jesus' nature and character.Coke Bear said:Please show me where I can that Jesus is the only intercessor.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
No, I didn't confuse anything. Jesus is our only intercessor before God.
So now you are claiming that believing in intercessory prayer other than to/through Jesus is diminishing Jesus' nature and character? That's certainly not Biblical.
I don't want to put words in your mouth so to be clear are you saying no one should offer up nor request intercessory prayer ever? ....
Ok. So ultimately you agree intercession may be efficacious if requested from someone in the here and now as long as the person making the request understands that they can invoke Jesus directly? Did I get that right?
I do agree it may be efficacious to give and receive intercessory prayer, but I said nothing about efficacy or "the here and now", whatever that means.curtpenn said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Not from the departed, but amongst the living. And not if you believe you need someone else's intercessory prayer otherwise Jesus would not be willing nor able to hear or answer you if you go to him directly.curtpenn said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Yes, believing that one can not go directly to Jesus, but rather they believe they must have someone else intercede for them, is believing in one's heart that Jesus is not compassionate, loving, gracious, desiring, or powerful enough to hear from you directly and totally. That would be denying what the bible tells us about Jesus nature and character and his willingness to hear from us (John 14:14, Rev 3:20, Hebrews 4:16, Hebrews 7:25, Acts 7:59 and others)curtpenn said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:I was referring to Jesus as our one intercessor before God. We can certainly pray for others and therefore be intercessors for them in that sense as the bible teaches. However, nowhere does the bible teach us to pray to those we think are in heaven for them to act as our intercessors for Jesus. You can't even know for sure who's in heaven and who's not, let alone know if they can even hear you. We are told to pray to Jesus directly. Believing that isn't enough is diminishing Jesus' nature and character.Coke Bear said:Please show me where I can that Jesus is the only intercessor.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
No, I didn't confuse anything. Jesus is our only intercessor before God.
So now you are claiming that believing in intercessory prayer other than to/through Jesus is diminishing Jesus' nature and character? That's certainly not Biblical.
I don't want to put words in your mouth so to be clear are you saying no one should offer up nor request intercessory prayer ever? ....
Ok. So ultimately you agree intercession may be efficacious if requested from someone in the here and now as long as the person making the request understands that they can invoke Jesus directly? Did I get that right?
Still waiting for your evidence that praying to Mary or to saints was taught, believed, or practiced by Jesus or his apostles, or the early Church. You were pretty confident about it. Do you need to walk back, i.e. "crawdad" from your claim?
I'm in agreement. Between us and God, Jesus is the only intercessor. But we can be "intercessors" to others through prayer, but not in the same sense.xfrodobagginsx said:Jesus is the ONLY Intercessor. We don't pray to anyone else.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:I was referring to Jesus as our one intercessor before God. We can certainly pray for others and therefore be intercessors for them in that sense as the bible teaches. However, nowhere does the bible teach us to pray to those we think are in heaven for them to act as our intercessors for Jesus. You can't even know for sure who's in heaven and who's not, let alone know if they can even hear you. We are told to pray to Jesus directly. Believing that isn't enough is diminishing Jesus' nature and character.Coke Bear said:Please show me where I can that Jesus is the only intercessor.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
No, I didn't confuse anything. Jesus is our only intercessor before God.
1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
(KJV)
BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
Still waiting for your evidence that praying to Mary or to saints was taught, believed, or practiced by Jesus or his apostles, or the early Church. You were pretty confident about it. Do you need to walk back, i.e. "crawdad" from your claim?
There is certainly documented evidence of Marion prayers from the 3rd century. I call that early. I don't think it's necessary to find specific instruction from Jesus or the apostles for something to be inferred. I don't think you have any specific evidence from Jesus or his apostles prohibiting invoking intercessory prayer from the cloud of witnesses which comprises the communion of saints.
Not a Roman Catholic as I've said so don't pretend to have extensive knowledge of the Magisterium or Catechism, but your repeated appeal to a somewhat obscure Marion prayer hardly seems sufficient reason to trash the single largest group of Christians now or ever. I believe it does not rise to the level of official dogma, though willing to be proven wrong about this. Regardless, you cannot "prove" from Scripture that those who exist now in the presence of our Lord cannot hear our invocations and cannot intercede for us. In addition, this is not salvific one way or the other. I find the practice personally edifying and commend it to all.
BusyTarpDuster2017 said:I do agree it may be efficacious to give and receive intercessory prayer, but I said nothing about efficacy or "the here and now", whatever that means.curtpenn said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Not from the departed, but amongst the living. And not if you believe you need someone else's intercessory prayer otherwise Jesus would not be willing nor able to hear or answer you if you go to him directly.curtpenn said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Yes, believing that one can not go directly to Jesus, but rather they believe they must have someone else intercede for them, is believing in one's heart that Jesus is not compassionate, loving, gracious, desiring, or powerful enough to hear from you directly and totally. That would be denying what the bible tells us about Jesus nature and character and his willingness to hear from us (John 14:14, Rev 3:20, Hebrews 4:16, Hebrews 7:25, Acts 7:59 and others)curtpenn said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:I was referring to Jesus as our one intercessor before God. We can certainly pray for others and therefore be intercessors for them in that sense as the bible teaches. However, nowhere does the bible teach us to pray to those we think are in heaven for them to act as our intercessors for Jesus. You can't even know for sure who's in heaven and who's not, let alone know if they can even hear you. We are told to pray to Jesus directly. Believing that isn't enough is diminishing Jesus' nature and character.Coke Bear said:Please show me where I can that Jesus is the only intercessor.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
No, I didn't confuse anything. Jesus is our only intercessor before God.
So now you are claiming that believing in intercessory prayer other than to/through Jesus is diminishing Jesus' nature and character? That's certainly not Biblical.
I don't want to put words in your mouth so to be clear are you saying no one should offer up nor request intercessory prayer ever? ....
Ok. So ultimately you agree intercession may be efficacious if requested from someone in the here and now as long as the person making the request understands that they can invoke Jesus directly? Did I get that right?
Some of us exist within time while others exist outside of it. Regardless, we still exist. Simple enough for you?
BusyTarpDuster2017 said:I'm in agreement. Between us and God, Jesus is the only intercessor. But we can be "intercessors" to others through prayer, but not in the same sense.xfrodobagginsx said:Jesus is the ONLY Intercessor. We don't pray to anyone else.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:I was referring to Jesus as our one intercessor before God. We can certainly pray for others and therefore be intercessors for them in that sense as the bible teaches. However, nowhere does the bible teach us to pray to those we think are in heaven for them to act as our intercessors for Jesus. You can't even know for sure who's in heaven and who's not, let alone know if they can even hear you. We are told to pray to Jesus directly. Believing that isn't enough is diminishing Jesus' nature and character.Coke Bear said:Please show me where I can that Jesus is the only intercessor.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
No, I didn't confuse anything. Jesus is our only intercessor before God.
1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
(KJV)
Oh, so you're saying "intercessor" may have multiple meanings or applications… who knew?
BusyTarpDuster2017 said:I do agree it may be efficacious to give and receive intercessory prayer, but I said nothing about efficacy or "the here and now", whatever that means.curtpenn said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Not from the departed, but amongst the living. And not if you believe you need someone else's intercessory prayer otherwise Jesus would not be willing nor able to hear or answer you if you go to him directly.curtpenn said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Yes, believing that one can not go directly to Jesus, but rather they believe they must have someone else intercede for them, is believing in one's heart that Jesus is not compassionate, loving, gracious, desiring, or powerful enough to hear from you directly and totally. That would be denying what the bible tells us about Jesus nature and character and his willingness to hear from us (John 14:14, Rev 3:20, Hebrews 4:16, Hebrews 7:25, Acts 7:59 and others)curtpenn said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:I was referring to Jesus as our one intercessor before God. We can certainly pray for others and therefore be intercessors for them in that sense as the bible teaches. However, nowhere does the bible teach us to pray to those we think are in heaven for them to act as our intercessors for Jesus. You can't even know for sure who's in heaven and who's not, let alone know if they can even hear you. We are told to pray to Jesus directly. Believing that isn't enough is diminishing Jesus' nature and character.Coke Bear said:Please show me where I can that Jesus is the only intercessor.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
No, I didn't confuse anything. Jesus is our only intercessor before God.
So now you are claiming that believing in intercessory prayer other than to/through Jesus is diminishing Jesus' nature and character? That's certainly not Biblical.
I don't want to put words in your mouth so to be clear are you saying no one should offer up nor request intercessory prayer ever? ....
Ok. So ultimately you agree intercession may be efficacious if requested from someone in the here and now as long as the person making the request understands that they can invoke Jesus directly? Did I get that right?
I was confused by your bit about Jesus not being able or willing to hear or answer. Whatever that means.
BusyTarpDuster2017 said:I'm in agreement. Between us and God, Jesus is the only intercessor. But we can be "intercessors" to others through prayer, but not in the same sense.xfrodobagginsx said:Jesus is the ONLY Intercessor. We don't pray to anyone else.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:I was referring to Jesus as our one intercessor before God. We can certainly pray for others and therefore be intercessors for them in that sense as the bible teaches. However, nowhere does the bible teach us to pray to those we think are in heaven for them to act as our intercessors for Jesus. You can't even know for sure who's in heaven and who's not, let alone know if they can even hear you. We are told to pray to Jesus directly. Believing that isn't enough is diminishing Jesus' nature and character.Coke Bear said:Please show me where I can that Jesus is the only intercessor.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
No, I didn't confuse anything. Jesus is our only intercessor before God.
1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
(KJV)
So can we be "mediators" to or for others through prayer, but not in the same sense?
Where does it say in the bible to pray directly to Jesus?BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
. We are told to pray to Jesus directly.
Does it make sense, having access to Christ, to pray to someone who is not our Savior?Coke Bear said:Where does it say in the bible to pray directly to Jesus?BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
. We are told to pray to Jesus directly.
That which does not kill me, will try again and get nastier
BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Yes, believing that one can not go directly to Jesus, but rather they believe they must have someone else intercede for them, is believing in one's heart that Jesus is not compassionate, loving, gracious, desiring, or powerful enough to hear from you directly and totally. That would be denying what the bible tells us about Jesus nature and character and his willingness to hear from us (John 14:14, Rev 3:20, Hebrews 4:16, Hebrews 7:25, Acts 7:59 and others)curtpenn said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:I was referring to Jesus as our one intercessor before God. We can certainly pray for others and therefore be intercessors for them in that sense as the bible teaches. However, nowhere does the bible teach us to pray to those we think are in heaven for them to act as our intercessors for Jesus. You can't even know for sure who's in heaven and who's not, let alone know if they can even hear you. We are told to pray to Jesus directly. Believing that isn't enough is diminishing Jesus' nature and character.Coke Bear said:Please show me where I can that Jesus is the only intercessor.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
No, I didn't confuse anything. Jesus is our only intercessor before God.
So now you are claiming that believing in intercessory prayer other than to/through Jesus is diminishing Jesus' nature and character? That's certainly not Biblical.
I don't invoke Mary or any of the saints because I believe I must. I do it because I can and believe the prayers of the righteous are efficacious (which is Biblical in case you missed it). And since we are told
to uphold one another in prayer I believe it delights those we invoke to intercede on our behalf. You go way too far attributing bad intent to too many.
I am asking him to prove his claim biblically. He can't.Oldbear83 said:Does it make sense, having access to Christ, to pray to someone who is not our Savior?Coke Bear said:Where does it say in the bible to pray directly to Jesus?BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
. We are told to pray to Jesus directly.
We, of course, pray to Jesus. But no where in the bible does it say we are to pray to Jesus. This is why some Protestants pick and chose what they will follow without biblical assertion.
Some will deem there practices like alter calls or Sinner's prayer as something divined by God when they are not mentioned in the bible, but then state that intercessory prayer is something akin to Saul visiting the witch of Endor. The double-standard is strong here.
Oldbear83 said:Does it make sense, having access to Christ, to pray to someone who is not our Savior?Coke Bear said:Where does it say in the bible to pray directly to Jesus?BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
. We are told to pray to Jesus directly.
It makes perfect sense to invoke fellow believers to intercede for us even though we ourselves have access to Christ. Do you not intercede for others in prayer?
I do think we are all spinning needlessly but, Jesus forgive me, I am fond of spinning. Seems to me it totally hinges on whether or not one believes that those on the other side of physical death can or may hear and can or may intercede on our behalf, or not. I find nothing in Scripture to prevent or forbid it while finding some verses which support it. At the same time, since becoming an Episcopalian I've developed some knowledge of and appreciation for Catholic thought and practice which, after all, comprises the majority of all Christian thought and theology ever committed to paper. All this while being mindful that I don't hold with all the teachings of Rome (which is why I am not Roman Catholic) just as I never held with all the teachings of the Paige Pattersons and like minded fundamentalists (for lack of a better word) either. It is possible to take the most edifying teachings and practices from both while understanding that no one has complete knowledge as you have so well stated.
Coke Bear said:I am asking him to prove his claim biblically. He can't.Oldbear83 said:Does it make sense, having access to Christ, to pray to someone who is not our Savior?Coke Bear said:Where does it say in the bible to pray directly to Jesus?BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
. We are told to pray to Jesus directly.
We, of course, pray to Jesus. But no where in the bible does it say we are to pray to Jesus. This is why some Protestants pick and chose what they will follow without biblical assertion.
Some will deem there practices like alter calls or Sinner's prayer as something divined by God when they are not mentioned in the bible, but then state that intercessory prayer is something akin to Saul visiting the witch of Endor. The double-standard is strong here.
I still remember all the verses to Just As I Am (I'm sure all the Baptists here of a certain age know this reference). Does that mean I'm saved? Lol.
Third century is not early. Even gnosticism was around well before then, so obviously, heresy doesn't need that much time to develop. That's why Sola Scriptura is necessary.curtpenn said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
Still waiting for your evidence that praying to Mary or to saints was taught, believed, or practiced by Jesus or his apostles, or the early Church. You were pretty confident about it. Do you need to walk back, i.e. "crawdad" from your claim?
There is certainly documented evidence of Marion prayers from the 3rd century. I call that early. I don't think it's necessary to find specific instruction from Jesus or the apostles for something to be inferred. I don't think you have any specific evidence from Jesus or his apostles prohibiting invoking intercessory prayer from the cloud of witnesses which composes the communion of saints.
Not a Roman Catholic as I've said so don't pretend to have extensive knowledge of the Magisterium or Catechism, but your repeated appeal to a somewhat obscure Marion prayer hardly seems sufficient reason to trash the single largest group of Christians now or ever. I believe it does not rise to the level of official dogma, though willing to be proven wrong about this. Regardless, you cannot "prove" from Scripture that those who exist now in the presence of our Lord cannot hear our invocations and cannot intercede for us. In addition, this is not salvific one way or the other. I find the practice personally edifying and commend it to all.
Saying that because Jesus didn't specifically prohibit something means it's ok to do, is a dangerous and foolish way to think. You can reason that way to justify anything. That's how liberal Christians try to justify sin. Trying to take a single reference about a "cloud of witnesses" and extrapolating that out to a whole belief system of praying to Mary and saints is too much of a reach, especially since there are no corroborating verses that make this out to be more than just a metaphor.
It isn't just those "obscure" prayers (its hardly obscure -it's fully endorsed and promoted by the Catholic Church, having gone through 800 editions, and it is quoted often by bishops and Popes). There's also the Marian dogmas, the Eucharist, Purgatory, etc. There are many unbiblical beliefs and practices in Catholicism. The goal is not to "trash" Catholics but rather to tell the truth. You may think the practice of praying to saints isn't salvivic, and it is possible that in of itself it does not necessarily disqualify one's salvation. But the danger is it may progress to outright idolatry and to a belief in a twisted, distorted gospel, which may indeed disqualify. Based on the dogmas of Mary, and the worship of her evident by all the hymns, prayers, bowing, incantations, etc., it is quite likely many Catholics put their trust in their salvation on Mary, not Jesus. That is not a saving faith.