Oldbear83 said:
You are quibbling on details, Coke Bear. There is no doubt at all, however, that the Popes did murder innocent people.
I have said before and do so now, that every denomination has sins of shame, but please, this fact is egregious and really has no defense.
Please provide a list of those Popes that murdered and their victims so that I can research this.Oldbear83 said:
You are quibbling on details, Coke Bear. There is no doubt at all, however, that the Popes did murder innocent people.
I have said before and do so now, that every denomination has sins of shame, but please, this fact is egregious and really has no defense.
You serious, Clark?Coke Bear said:Please provide a list of those Popes that murdered and their victims so that I can research this.Oldbear83 said:
You are quibbling on details, Coke Bear. There is no doubt at all, however, that the Popes did murder innocent people.
I have said before and do so now, that every denomination has sins of shame, but please, this fact is egregious and really has no defense.
I don't see queen listed in any of these passages. Scripture refers to Christ's bride as the Church. Not as a Queen. As realitybites mentioned, the Hebrews never referred to the King's wife as Queen. The Queen was always the King's mother.Oldbear83 said:It is my understanding that most non-RCC theologians say the Church is Christ's Queen, as evidenced in Scripture:Realitybites said:
Psalm 45 depicts Christ as King and at his side is a Queen.
Matthew 22:1-4
Luke 12:36
Revelation 19:7-9
Christ also made clear who was his family in Matthew 12:46-50 "For whoever does the will of my Father in Heaven is my brother and sister and mother".
You are trying to explain these things to a brick wall. His anti-Catholic teaching bias will NOT allow him to accept these facts you present.Realitybites said:
With regards to the Queen of Heaven, the problem here is imposing a medieval european concept of the queen as the king's wife onto these things.
In the Jewish culture, a Davidic King would have his mother as Queen rather than his wife, because he rarely had one wife, but many wives. Sharing power with many wives would be much too difficult, but he had only one mother and she was given the title of Queen. Almost every time a new king is introduced in 1 and 2 Kings, the king's mother is mentioned. She was a member of the royal court, wore a crown, sat on a throne, and shared in the king's reign (2 Kings 24:12, 15; Jer. 13:1820). She acted as counselor to her son (Prov. 31), an advocate of the people, and as an intercessor for the citizens of the kingdom (1 Kings 2:1720). Since Jesus is a King based on the order of David, it makes sense that His mother would be called Queen.
Psalm 45 depicts Christ as King and at his side is a Queen.
Please note that many Eastern Church fathers (St. Sophronius of Jerusalem, John Damascene, St. Gregory, St. Palamas , and St. Eugenicus, etc.) affirmed this doctrine prior the prior dogma's declaration in 1854. It was only 40 years after, that a Patriarchal Encyclical opposed the dogma that their fathers previously confessed.Realitybites said:
That having been said, much of the second millenium Roman Catholic conception of Mary is a bridge too far for the church of the first millenium. For example, our teaching is that Mary was human as we are and was conceived and born as we are. Her parents were Saints Joachim and Anna. There was no immaculate conception of Mary. We don't open our mouths to utter the phrase "co-redemptrix" as there is only one redeemer of man, that is Christ. We even refer to her as the "Theotokos" or God-Bearer to place the emphasis on Christ's divinity, the trinity, and her obedience to God instead of using her human name. So Orthodoxy - although we honor her and even consider her one of the premier Christians who lived - does not bring such concepts into play.
** sigh **Coke Bear said:I don't see queen listed in any of these passages. Scripture refers to Christ's bride as the Church. Not as a Queen. As realitybites mentioned, the Hebrews never referred to the King's wife as Queen. The Queen was always the King's mother.Oldbear83 said:It is my understanding that most non-RCC theologians say the Church is Christ's Queen, as evidenced in Scripture:Realitybites said:
Psalm 45 depicts Christ as King and at his side is a Queen.
Matthew 22:1-4
Luke 12:36
Revelation 19:7-9
Christ also made clear who was his family in Matthew 12:46-50 "For whoever does the will of my Father in Heaven is my brother and sister and mother".
With respect to Matthew 12:46-50, many Protestants try so present this as Jesus reducing the importance of Mary and His family. Quite the contrary. Jesus, who would never break the 4th commandment of Honoring thy Father and Mother, is stating that as important as family is, those that do God's will are part of His Kingdom, which is ultimately the most important thing.
** sigh **Oldbear83 said:** sigh **Coke Bear said:I don't see queen listed in any of these passages. Scripture refers to Christ's bride as the Church. Not as a Queen. As realitybites mentioned, the Hebrews never referred to the King's wife as Queen. The Queen was always the King's mother.Oldbear83 said:It is my understanding that most non-RCC theologians say the Church is Christ's Queen, as evidenced in Scripture:Realitybites said:
Psalm 45 depicts Christ as King and at his side is a Queen.
Matthew 22:1-4
Luke 12:36
Revelation 19:7-9
Christ also made clear who was his family in Matthew 12:46-50 "For whoever does the will of my Father in Heaven is my brother and sister and mother".
With respect to Matthew 12:46-50, many Protestants try so present this as Jesus reducing the importance of Mary and His family. Quite the contrary. Jesus, who would never break the 4th commandment of Honoring thy Father and Mother, is stating that as important as family is, those that do God's will are part of His Kingdom, which is ultimately the most important thing.
Bottom line, the Gospel accounts very clearly do not regard Mary with the status given by so many Roman Catholics.
All the double-talk in Rome won't change that.
Coke Bear said:Please provide a list of those Popes that murdered and their victims so that I can research this.Oldbear83 said:
You are quibbling on details, Coke Bear. There is no doubt at all, however, that the Popes did murder innocent people.
I have said before and do so now, that every denomination has sins of shame, but please, this fact is egregious and really has no defense.
Did you miss the post where I've stated that this book has been debunked by serious scholars? Do you get your info Jack Chick books?xfrodobagginsx said:Coke Bear said:Please provide a list of those Popes that murdered and their victims so that I can research this.Oldbear83 said:
You are quibbling on details, Coke Bear. There is no doubt at all, however, that the Popes did murder innocent people.
I have said before and do so now, that every denomination has sins of shame, but please, this fact is egregious and really has no defense.
Read Foxes Book Of Martyrs.
Yes.Oldbear83 said:You serious, Clark?Coke Bear said:Please provide a list of those Popes that murdered and their victims so that I can research this.Oldbear83 said:
You are quibbling on details, Coke Bear. There is no doubt at all, however, that the Popes did murder innocent people.
I have said before and do so now, that every denomination has sins of shame, but please, this fact is egregious and really has no defense.
Harvesting was considered work. Moses commanded the execution of a man picking up sticks on the Sabbath in Numbers 15: 32-36.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
Still waiting on you to produce the actual law from Torah which prohibited picking grains to eat and healing on the Sabbath. Where does it say in the Torah that these constituted as "work"? It doesn't. They were rules created by the Pharisees. Therein lies Jesus' point.
Maybe because many people can read and understand it because they are NOT biased with a jaded, fallible interpretation like your own. Their ego allows them to be open to view different opinions.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
But regardless of whether or not mothers of Davidic kings were called "queens" - there is no reference to Mary in the bible as the "Queen of Heaven". The only "queen of heaven" in the bible was a pagan goddess that the Israelites were worshiping, thereby incurring the wrath of God. It completely baffles me how anyone who calls themself a "christian" can feel the slightest bit comfortable with "venerating" anything that is called by the same name, or anything CLOSE to resembling it. How this doesn't raise red flags in their hearts is beyond me.
Here is a response Tom Nash, Catholic apologist, concerning the the Glories being heretical and idolatrous:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
It's just like those prayers to Mary in The Glories of Mary which are fully condoned and promoted by the RCC, which called Mary "the god of this world" - a title given to Satan in the bible. The more important issue here is how this doesn't raise serious questions among Catholics about the inspiration behind these beliefs, and whether or not the authority they submit to, the RCC, is really being moved by the Holy Spirit.
Tom Nash said:
One must always remember that St. Alphonsus Liguori unequivocally affirms Catholic Church teaching that Jesus is uncreated God and that his Blessed Mother is one of his creatures. Ditto with other Catholic saints and faithful Catholic writers whose words about the Blessed Motherin isolationmight seem heretical.
Consequently, similar to how we read Sacred Scripture in general, we also need to read Alphonsus's words about the Blessed Mother in full context. His high regard for Mary stems directly from her relationship with her divine son, who exalted her so greatly in conceiving her without sin, calling her to be the mother of God, and in making her queen of heaven and earth (Rev. 12:1), and thereby a spiritual mother to all humanity (Rev. 12:17).
All you have to support your worship of Mary is that you want to do so.Coke Bear said:** sigh **Oldbear83 said:** sigh **Coke Bear said:I don't see queen listed in any of these passages. Scripture refers to Christ's bride as the Church. Not as a Queen. As realitybites mentioned, the Hebrews never referred to the King's wife as Queen. The Queen was always the King's mother.Oldbear83 said:It is my understanding that most non-RCC theologians say the Church is Christ's Queen, as evidenced in Scripture:Realitybites said:
Psalm 45 depicts Christ as King and at his side is a Queen.
Matthew 22:1-4
Luke 12:36
Revelation 19:7-9
Christ also made clear who was his family in Matthew 12:46-50 "For whoever does the will of my Father in Heaven is my brother and sister and mother".
With respect to Matthew 12:46-50, many Protestants try so present this as Jesus reducing the importance of Mary and His family. Quite the contrary. Jesus, who would never break the 4th commandment of Honoring thy Father and Mother, is stating that as important as family is, those that do God's will are part of His Kingdom, which is ultimately the most important thing.
Bottom line, the Gospel accounts very clearly do not regard Mary with the status given by so many Roman Catholics.
All the double-talk in Rome won't change that.
The Gospels accounts very clearly do not regard sola scriptura.
All the double-talk by Protestants won't change that.
Never took you for the religious version of a Holocaust denier Coke Bear, but there you are ...Coke Bear said:Yes.Oldbear83 said:You serious, Clark?Coke Bear said:Please provide a list of those Popes that murdered and their victims so that I can research this.Oldbear83 said:
You are quibbling on details, Coke Bear. There is no doubt at all, however, that the Popes did murder innocent people.
I have said before and do so now, that every denomination has sins of shame, but please, this fact is egregious and really has no defense.
My apologies for the 14th Crusade. It was off the top of my head. But my point remains, the pope gave remission of sins for the battle against the protestants.Coke Bear said:Are you seriously getting your research from the History Channel? Why don't you contact TMZ next?Waco1947 said:Research your own Catholic history. It is quite evident Popes granted heaven to crusadersCoke Bear said:First, please show me the Catholic document and which Pope "authorized" this.Waco1947 said:Popes granted these "Catholic Warriors " were granted heavenCoke Bear said:Which Pope authorized the 30 Year's war? This was a mainly German war between Protestants and Catholics. Please try harder. Better yet, please investigate real history, not false Protestant propaganda that you read on a misinformed website.Waco1947 said:the 30 years war. Protestants killed in the name of the popeCoke Bear said:Please send a credible link so that I can research it. Please list which Pope authorized this crusade, when, where, and against whom it was fought.Waco1947 said:
14th crusade against Protestants
Second, NO one can "grant Heaven" to anyone.
Your sources for this info are VERY bad.
"Pope Urban denigrated the Muslims, exaggerating stories of their anti-Christian acts, and promised absolution and remission of sins for all who died in the service of Christ." History Channel
Seriously you mentioned something about the "14th crusade".
Poor Urban was the pope during the first crusade when the Byzantine emperor pleaded for help because Christian pilgrims were being killed in the Holy Lands.
He did grant indulgences for those who served. They paid their own way. They did help recapture lands that belonged to Christians.
Those lands would be lost and won for several hundred years.
Pope Urban could not have been the Pope during a so-called 14th crusade.
Bless your heart. Your scatter shootings are worse than xfrodox.
Nope. Holocaust happened. I even visited the National Holocausts Museum in DC. Sobering.Oldbear83 said:Never took you for the religious version of a Holocaust denier Coke Bear, but there you are ...Coke Bear said:Yes.Oldbear83 said:You serious, Clark?Coke Bear said:Please provide a list of those Popes that murdered and their victims so that I can research this.Oldbear83 said:
You are quibbling on details, Coke Bear. There is no doubt at all, however, that the Popes did murder innocent people.
I have said before and do so now, that every denomination has sins of shame, but please, this fact is egregious and really has no defense.
Please show any official Catholic document that states that Catholics do and should worship Mary.Oldbear83 said:
All you have to support your worship of Mary is that you want to do so.
I've never denied the authority of scripture. Those are your words. I'm simply stating that sola scriptura in not found in the Bible.Oldbear83 said:
Not sure disparaging the authority of Scripture is a good plan here, son.
Bless your heart. You are trying.Waco1947 said:
My apologies for the 14th Crusade. It was off the top of my head. But my point remains, the pope gave remission of sins for the battle against the protestants.
Pope Urban II said:
"All who die by the way, whether by land or by sea, or in battle against the pagans, shall have immediate remission of sins. This I grant them through the power of God with which I am invested."
I cited Scripture showing Christ's own words.Coke Bear said:Please show any official Catholic document that states that Catholics do and should worship Mary.Oldbear83 said:
All you have to support your worship of Mary is that you want to do so.I've never denied the authority of scripture. Those are your words. I'm simply stating that sola scriptura in not found in the Bible.Oldbear83 said:
Not sure disparaging the authority of Scripture is a good plan here, son.
And we both know that's like a German today demanding proof Hitler ordered Jews killed.Coke Bear said:Nope. Holocaust happened. I even visited the National Holocausts Museum in DC. Sobering.Oldbear83 said:Never took you for the religious version of a Holocaust denier Coke Bear, but there you are ...Coke Bear said:Yes.Oldbear83 said:You serious, Clark?Coke Bear said:Please provide a list of those Popes that murdered and their victims so that I can research this.Oldbear83 said:
You are quibbling on details, Coke Bear. There is no doubt at all, however, that the Popes did murder innocent people.
I have said before and do so now, that every denomination has sins of shame, but please, this fact is egregious and really has no defense.
I simply would like for you to post which Popes murdered innocent people and who those people were. I would like to research it. I feel like BDT17 asking the same question multiple time
I agree BOTH Protestants and Catholics have been killed by either side - Elizabeth I and Henry VIII vs. Mary Queen of Scots; however, I am still waiting for you to list the POPES that you clams killed Protestants and who were they.Oldbear83 said:
And we both know that's like a German today demanding proof Hitler ordered Jews killed.
Catholics murdered Protestants when Catholics held political power. Do you deny that?
Come on, give a straight answer like a man.
Coke Bear said:I agree BOTH Protestants and Catholics have been killed by either side - Elizabeth I and Henry VIII vs. Mary Queen of Scots; however, I am still waiting for you to list the POPES that you clams killed Protestants and who were they.Oldbear83 said:
And we both know that's like a German today demanding proof Hitler ordered Jews killed.
Catholics murdered Protestants when Catholics held political power. Do you deny that?
Come on, give a straight answer like a man.
I want to research the whole story behind these events.
So, no straight answer then.Coke Bear said:I agree BOTH Protestants and Catholics have been killed by either side - Elizabeth I and Henry VIII vs. Mary Queen of Scots; however, I am still waiting for you to list the POPES that you clams killed Protestants and who were they.Oldbear83 said:
And we both know that's like a German today demanding proof Hitler ordered Jews killed.
Catholics murdered Protestants when Catholics held political power. Do you deny that?
Come on, give a straight answer like a man.
I want to research the whole story behind these events.
Truth is truth regardless of the messengerCoke Bear said:Are you seriously getting your research from the History Channel? Why don't you contact TMZ next?Waco1947 said:Research your own Catholic history. It is quite evident Popes granted heaven to crusadersCoke Bear said:First, please show me the Catholic document and which Pope "authorized" this.Waco1947 said:Popes granted these "Catholic Warriors " were granted heavenCoke Bear said:Which Pope authorized the 30 Year's war? This was a mainly German war between Protestants and Catholics. Please try harder. Better yet, please investigate real history, not false Protestant propaganda that you read on a misinformed website.Waco1947 said:the 30 years war. Protestants killed in the name of the popeCoke Bear said:Please send a credible link so that I can research it. Please list which Pope authorized this crusade, when, where, and against whom it was fought.Waco1947 said:
14th crusade against Protestants
Second, NO one can "grant Heaven" to anyone.
Your sources for this info are VERY bad.
"Pope Urban denigrated the Muslims, exaggerating stories of their anti-Christian acts, and promised absolution and remission of sins for all who died in the service of Christ." History Channel
Seriously you mentioned something about the "14th crusade".
Poor Urban was the pope during the first crusade when the Byzantine emperor pleaded for help because Christian pilgrims were being killed in the Holy Lands.
He did grant indulgences for those who served. They paid their own way. They did help recapture lands that belonged to Christians.
Those lands would be lost and won for several hundred years.
Pope Urban could not have been the Pope during a so-called 14th crusade.
Bless your heart. Your scatter shootings are worse than xfrodox.
Obviously, Jesus didn't consider it "harvesting" if his hungry disciples who had no food walked by a grain field and picked some of it to eat, and rightfully so. The Eruv wires are an example of the technicalities that the Jewish people create in order to be "observant", while missing the whole point of the law.Coke Bear said:Harvesting was considered work. Moses commanded the execution of a man picking up sticks on the Sabbath in Numbers 15: 32-36.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
Still waiting on you to produce the actual law from Torah which prohibited picking grains to eat and healing on the Sabbath. Where does it say in the Torah that these constituted as "work"? It doesn't. They were rules created by the Pharisees. Therein lies Jesus' point.
Harvesting is still part of the 39 categories of Laws prohibited on the Sabbath.
This is way major cities (NYC, Chicago, Dallas, etc.) in our country have "Eruv" wires so that Orthodox Jews can still consider the area their "home" and carry items, etc. on Shabbat.
If you really honored Mary, you would not call her a title that belonged to a pagan goddess that God punished His people severely for worshiping. There is a reason that Catholics don't blink an eye at this, and it's because they are so blinded by their desire to "venerate" i.e. worship Mary that they don't realize how much they are being duped into pagan goddess worship by the Devil.Coke Bear said:Maybe because many people can read and understand it because they are NOT biased with a jaded, fallible interpretation like your own. Their ego allows them to be open to view different opinions.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
But regardless of whether or not mothers of Davidic kings were called "queens" - there is no reference to Mary in the bible as the "Queen of Heaven". The only "queen of heaven" in the bible was a pagan goddess that the Israelites were worshiping, thereby incurring the wrath of God. It completely baffles me how anyone who calls themself a "christian" can feel the slightest bit comfortable with "venerating" anything that is called by the same name, or anything CLOSE to resembling it. How this doesn't raise red flags in their hearts is beyond me.
Calling her the Queen of Heaven is not referring to the pagan worship. It's giving her a title of honor. If we're getting rid of objects from pagans, lets get rid of your wedding ring and coffee that came from the Muslims.Here is a response Tom Nash, Catholic apologist, concerning the the Glories being heretical and idolatrous:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
It's just like those prayers to Mary in The Glories of Mary which are fully condoned and promoted by the RCC, which called Mary "the god of this world" - a title given to Satan in the bible. The more important issue here is how this doesn't raise serious questions among Catholics about the inspiration behind these beliefs, and whether or not the authority they submit to, the RCC, is really being moved by the Holy Spirit.Tom Nash said:
One must always remember that St. Alphonsus Liguori unequivocally affirms Catholic Church teaching that Jesus is uncreated God and that his Blessed Mother is one of his creatures. Ditto with other Catholic saints and faithful Catholic writers whose words about the Blessed Motherin isolationmight seem heretical.
Consequently, similar to how we read Sacred Scripture in general, we also need to read Alphonsus's words about the Blessed Mother in full context. His high regard for Mary stems directly from her relationship with her divine son, who exalted her so greatly in conceiving her without sin, calling her to be the mother of God, and in making her queen of heaven and earth (Rev. 12:1), and thereby a spiritual mother to all humanity (Rev. 12:17).
When did you stop beating your wife?Oldbear83 said:So, no straight answer then.Coke Bear said:I agree BOTH Protestants and Catholics have been killed by either side - Elizabeth I and Henry VIII vs. Mary Queen of Scots; however, I am still waiting for you to list the POPES that you clams killed Protestants and who were they.Oldbear83 said:
And we both know that's like a German today demanding proof Hitler ordered Jews killed.
Catholics murdered Protestants when Catholics held political power. Do you deny that?
Come on, give a straight answer like a man.
I want to research the whole story behind these events.
Disappointing.
I'll accept truth; however, you are presenting truths. You are talking about crusades against Protestants and them conflating other issues.Waco1947 said:
Truth is truth regardless of the messenger
You were doing fine until you went back to pretending the Popes were not part of this, and that the numbers murdered were equal.Coke Bear said:When did you stop beating your wife?Oldbear83 said:So, no straight answer then.Coke Bear said:I agree BOTH Protestants and Catholics have been killed by either side - Elizabeth I and Henry VIII vs. Mary Queen of Scots; however, I am still waiting for you to list the POPES that you clams killed Protestants and who were they.Oldbear83 said:
And we both know that's like a German today demanding proof Hitler ordered Jews killed.
Catholics murdered Protestants when Catholics held political power. Do you deny that?
Come on, give a straight answer like a man.
I want to research the whole story behind these events.
Disappointing.
I said both sides are guilty of this. I asked you, now three times, to please name the Popes that murdered people and who they were.
You can keep posting Foxe's Book and the Trail of Blood, but it doesn't make it factual. These have been debunks by many scholars.xfrodobagginsx said:
Read Foxes Book of Martyrs and The Trail of Blood by Carroll. Also, the following videos explain the blood history of the Catholic Church.
A Lamp In The Dark
The Wheat & The Tares
This is my last request for the names of Popes. I will not do a back and forth for 15 posts like BDT17 did trying to get you to reply.Oldbear83 said:
Sure, there are things done by Protestants which are horrible and evil. But mass murder is something pretty much a Roman thing.
Some time ago, Coke Bear, you and I had seemed to reach a similar sadness that another member insisted on denying any claim until it was proven to absurd extremes, a behavior that made productive discussion impossible.Coke Bear said:This is my last request for the names of Popes. I will not do a back and forth for 15 posts like BDT17 did trying to get you to reply.Oldbear83 said:
Sure, there are things done by Protestants which are horrible and evil. But mass murder is something pretty much a Roman thing.
Please provide the names of the Popes that committed mass murder and who those people were.
Please eloborate on the "mass murder" that was perpetuated.
Failure on either one of these parts, and we can move onto a different point of discussion.
You've worked this thread down a pointless rabbit hole over Mosaic law. My only point is EVEN if it was actual blood, in a cup, Jesus was fulfilled the Mosaic law and declare all thing clean. For this topic, the disciples were "harvesting" i.e. doing work on the Sabbath, which according to Jesus tradition, was doing work. As we discussed, this belief is evidenced today with the strict Eruv wires. Enough with that. Back to the real point is the real presence of Jesus' Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity in the under the appearance of bread and wine.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
Obviously, Jesus didn't consider it "harvesting" if his hungry disciples who had no food walked by a grain field and picked some of it to eat, and rightfully so. The Eruv wires are an example of the technicalities that the Jewish people create in order to be "observant", while missing the whole point of the law.
Regardless, even if Jesus DID consider what the disciples did unlawful, the point you are missing is this: Jesus didn't "harvest" along with them, or command them to do it. The disciples sinned on their own, and Jesus let them. Jesus let his followers sin on their own all the time. That isn't a sin on Jesus.
Exodus 24:8 said:
Moses then took the blood, sprinkled it on the people and said, "This is the blood of the covenant that the LORD has made with you in accordance with all these words."
Matthew 26:27-28 said:
Then he took a cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you. 28 This is my blood of the[a] covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.
