Fre3dombear said:

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How much faith is required? A nano second? A poco second? How do we measure if we believe enough? I kinda believe in UFOs, but…

See rhe problem here?

Well that and sola fide magically appearing in the 16th century. What a belief to hang ones hat on so a guy could get laid.

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Faith is not quantified in units of time. Faith is belief. You either believe, or you don't. Works, however, is quantifiable and is not an all-or-none phenomenon, unless you require either 100% perfection or you aren't saved.

Sam Lowry said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Realitybites said:

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I'm saying that there is no salvation for those who do not repent and obey, and that this requirement doesn't magically end when you pray a sinners prayer.

If you want to call repentance and obedience salvation by works, that is your misunderstanding.

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How much obedience would be required? What degree of obedience is the cutoff point for salvation vs. going to Hell? If we don't know, then how can we know we are saved like Scripture tell us we can? See the problem?

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I think that's more the problem with your position. The required degree of obedience must either be some or none. If it's some, then salvation is not by grace. If it's none, then salvation is little more than the last refuge of a sociopath.

You get around this by saying that there's some unspecified degree of sinfulness that means you were never saved to begin with. But that begs the same question--if we don't know, how can we know we are saved?

The biblical view is quite simple in comparison. We have been redeemed, yet we are sinners, and we must continually seek God's forgiveness.

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It's not a problem with my position at all, because salvation isn't dependent on any level of obedience at all, it's dependent only on faith. What you're illustrating is still the problem of the works salvation model.

We are able to know if we're saved, just as the Bible tells us - by our belief, not by what sins we were able to avoid committing. You are approaching it backwards.

Your biblical view - if you don't seek God's forgiveness for one sin, do you lose your salvation? What if you die before you're able? See how your "simple" view isn't so simple, because you added a degree of your own performance? The true biblical view is more clear and simple - when we have (true) faith in Jesus, Jesus' righteousness is fully given to us, and all our past, present, and future sins are forgiven, and we are right with God and thus saved to eternal life. It's not dependent on anything we are, what we've done, or will do, it's fully determined by what Jesus is, and what he already did for us. That truly is good news.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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. However, this does raise an interesting question: suppose someone only hears that there's this Jesus who is the Son of the Creator who says that if they believe in him, they will have eternal life - and in their heart they believe it, and they put their trust in this Jesus, while not knowing anything about Baptism, repentance, works, what is sin or what is not sin, how to pray.... anything else other than what he just heard. Let's say he dies without doing any of those things, but continued to believe in his heart about this Jesus person and what he promised. Unlikely hypothetical, sure, but not impossible. Is this person saved, even though he never really repented of anything or obeyed anything? I say yes. Because the gospel is that faith in Jesus is what saves, not anyting else. What do you say?

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"I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish."

Luke 13:3

This is biblical salvation.

"So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."
(Romans 10:17, NKJV)

"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."
(John 3:16, NKJV)

[You stop here and declare "You're saved!" Jesus, however, doesn't.]

"I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish."
(Luke 13:3, NKJV)

"That if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved."
(Romans 10:9, NKJV)

"Therefore whoever confesses Me before men, him I will also confess before My Father who is in heaven."
(Matthew 10:32, NKJV)

"Then Peter said to them, 'Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.'"
(Acts 2:38, NKJV)

"He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned."
(Mark 16:16, NKJV)

"Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life."
(Romans 6:4, NKJV)

"Jesus said to His disciples, 'If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me.' (Matthew 16:24, NKJV)

There it is, step by step, right from the Bible. The Christian faith of the first Millenium, where the process of salvation begins with hearing and believing and is complete when your body falls asleep in the Lord and you return to Him.

Your false gospel takes the example of someone who's earthly race is very short through circumstances beyond their control and seeks to generalize it to all people. That is an extreme case of the misapplication of economia.

Anyhow, now that we have finally milked all the cows of the Christian faith and consumed all that milk, lets move on to some steak.

This is something that has been rattling around in my head for some time. Throughout the history of our faith, those who hate Christ have sought to murder his followers, and many saints have, and continue to, confess Christ unto death. This is consistent with the verses I posted above.

But what do you do if servants of satan threaten to kill someone else (spouse, child, sibling, or even a stranger)? Then your confession doesn't result in martyrdom but murder.

Is it still righteous to confess, or do you use the Rahab strategy? My inclination is to use the Rahab strategy. Assuming, of course, that yelling Jesus Akbar, pulling the trigger till the mags are empty, and being buried alive in a brass cairn are off the table.

Realitybites said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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. However, this does raise an interesting question: suppose someone only hears that there's this Jesus who is the Son of the Creator who says that if they believe in him, they will have eternal life - and in their heart they believe it, and they put their trust in this Jesus, while not knowing anything about Baptism, repentance, works, what is sin or what is not sin, how to pray.... anything else other than what he just heard. Let's say he dies without doing any of those things, but continued to believe in his heart about this Jesus person and what he promised. Unlikely hypothetical, sure, but not impossible. Is this person saved, even though he never really repented of anything or obeyed anything? I say yes. Because the gospel is that faith in Jesus is what saves, not anyting else. What do you say?

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"I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish."

Luke 13:3

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So your answer is that the person in my example is NOT saved despite placing his faith and trust in Jesus, and so he goes to Hell?

Also, remember that Jesus said this to his people the Jews BEFORE he died for all sins, so they were still under the Law. Jesus was preaching the arrival of Israel's promised Messiah - himself. Israel was to turn from their ways (repent) and accept him as their King. He was preaching the gospel of the Kingdom, the literal, earthly kingdom of Israel where Jesus would rule, and all people of the world would be blessed through Israel with the Jews as Jesus' priests. In this kingdom, the Law still applied. But, the Jews rejected him, and thus this offer was taken away from them, and Jesus' plan was to give the offer to the Gentiles AFTER HE DIED - this offer was to be given in grace to those who would believe, without any Law requirement since Jesus' death and resurrection fulfilled all the Law. This is the Gospel of Grace, which was preached by Paul, the apostle to the Gentiles. xfrodobaggins has mentioned dispensationalism often in this thread, and I really think it's worth looking into, if you don't know about it. I think it really clears up the Gospels.

To illustrate further, consider another thing that Jesus said before he went to the cross, also written in Luke (chapter 18): "And a ruler asked him, "Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?" And Jesus said to him... "You know the commandments: 'Do not commit adultery, Do not murder, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honor your father and mother.'"

Here, Jesus is saying in order to have eternal life, you have to keep the commandments perfectly. Why does he say this? Is this what we are to believe? Where's repentance, faith, etc? Where's the gospel?

Realitybites said:

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This is biblical salvation.

"So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."
(Romans 10:17, NKJV)

"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."
(John 3:16, NKJV)

[You stop here and declare "You're saved!" Jesus, however, doesn't.]

"I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish."
(Luke 13:3, NKJV)

"That if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved."
(Romans 10:9, NKJV)

"Therefore whoever confesses Me before men, him I will also confess before My Father who is in heaven."
(Matthew 10:32, NKJV)

"Then Peter said to them, 'Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.'"
(Acts 2:38, NKJV)

"He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned."
(Mark 16:16, NKJV)

"Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life."
(Romans 6:4, NKJV)

"Jesus said to His disciples, 'If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me.' (Matthew 16:24, NKJV)

There it is, step by step, right from the Bible. The Christian faith of the first Millenium, where the process of salvation begins with hearing and believing and is complete when your body falls asleep in the Lord and you return to Him.

Your false gospel takes the example of someone who's earthly race is very short through circumstances beyond their control and seeks to generalize it to all people. That is an extreme case of the misapplication of economia.

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Read my post above. You missed a big one: "Rich young ruler: "How must I obtain eternal life?" Jesus: "follow the commandments" (paraphrased, Luke 18). There it is, right from the Bible as you say. Salvation is strictly by following the Law. It's all by works, right?

You are mixing things said before Jesus' death and resurrection, with things said after. Therefore, many of the verses you posted conflict with each other. Many aren't explicitly saying that a work is required for salvation. Many aren't even talking about salvation at all. For example, how do you square Romans 10:9, which doesn't mention works, with the others that you say require works? And why did you omit all the verses that clearly teach that we are saved by grace through faith, apart from works?

Realitybites said:

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This is biblical salvation.

"So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."
(Romans 10:17, NKJV)

"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."
(John 3:16, NKJV)

[You stop here and declare "You're saved!" Jesus, however, doesn't.]

"I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish."
(Luke 13:3, NKJV)

"That if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved."
(Romans 10:9, NKJV)

"Therefore whoever confesses Me before men, him I will also confess before My Father who is in heaven."
(Matthew 10:32, NKJV)

"Then Peter said to them, 'Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.'"
(Acts 2:38, NKJV)

"He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned."
(Mark 16:16, NKJV)

"Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life."
(Romans 6:4, NKJV)

"Jesus said to His disciples, 'If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me.' (Matthew 16:24, NKJV)

There it is, step by step, right from the Bible. The Christian faith of the first Millenium, where the process of salvation begins with hearing and believing and is complete when your body falls asleep in the Lord and you return to Him.

Your false gospel takes the example of someone who's earthly race is very short through circumstances beyond their control and seeks to generalize it to all people. That is an extreme case of the misapplication of economia.

---

Excellent post. It will go nowhere with who I presume it is directed to on this thread. They are sola fide to the end, whatever end that leads them to. A concept that existed nowhere until 5 centuries ago so a certain priest could get laid

I posted 20 some verses and 10+ writings from the first hundred years after Jesus death to Augustine but maybe the devil has blinded their eyes. Nobody knows.

Ezekiel 11:22-23

For those with wisdom.

Fre3dombear said:

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Realitybites said:

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This is biblical salvation.

"So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."
(Romans 10:17, NKJV)

"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."
(John 3:16, NKJV)

[You stop here and declare "You're saved!" Jesus, however, doesn't.]

"I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish."
(Luke 13:3, NKJV)

"That if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved."
(Romans 10:9, NKJV)

"Therefore whoever confesses Me before men, him I will also confess before My Father who is in heaven."
(Matthew 10:32, NKJV)

"Then Peter said to them, 'Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.'"
(Acts 2:38, NKJV)

"He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned."
(Mark 16:16, NKJV)

"Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life."
(Romans 6:4, NKJV)

"Jesus said to His disciples, 'If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me.' (Matthew 16:24, NKJV)

There it is, step by step, right from the Bible. The Christian faith of the first Millenium, where the process of salvation begins with hearing and believing and is complete when your body falls asleep in the Lord and you return to Him.

Your false gospel takes the example of someone who's earthly race is very short through circumstances beyond their control and seeks to generalize it to all people. That is an extreme case of the misapplication of economia.

---

Excellent post. It will go nowhere with who I presume it is directed to on this thread. They are sola fide to the end, whatever end that leads them to. A concept that existed nowhere until 5 centuries ago so a certain priest could get laid

I posted 20 some verses and 10+ writings from the first hundred years after Jesus death to Augustine but maybe the devil has blinded their eyes. Nobody knows.

---

Sola fide didn't exist until 5 centuries ago?

This is just going to be mindlessly repeated by those who ignore all evidence except that which they want to believe. Amazing.

I'll post it again:

Hillary of Poitiers ~350 AD : "It disturbed the scribes that sin was forgiven by a man (for they considered that Jesus Christ was only a man) and that sin was forgiven by Him whereas the Law was not able to absolve it, since faith alone justifies."

Marius Victorinus, ~350 AD : "So knowing this, if we have believed that justification comes about through faith, we are surely going astray if we now return to Judaism, from which we passed over to be justified based not on works but faith, and faith in Christ. Faith itself alone grants justification and sanctification."

Ambrosiaster, ~ 360 AD : "They are justified freely because, while doing nothing or providing any repayment, they are justified by faith alone as a gift of God."


If this lie keeps being repeated, it'll only reveal the spirit behind your beliefs and cast serious doubt upon them.

Oldbear83 said:

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Ezekiel 11:22-23

For those with wisdom.

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Not sure what you mean by that

Once again, no one has made the argument that justification is through one's own righteousness.

Your misunderstanding of those verses results from your inaccurate idea that salvation is an event, not a lifelong process as well as what sounds like dispensationalism.

Oldbear83 said:

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Ezekiel 11:22-23

For those with wisdom.

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My biggest concern with BTD's gospel is that as this sort of easy believism has spread, it has created a lot of false converts and over the last hundred years lost the culture in the west.

Much of the western church is now in the business of vaccinating minds against the gospel.

But I get your point, which is why I took a break for Lent.

Realitybites said:

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Once again, no one has made the argument that justification is through one's own righteousness.

Your misunderstanding of those verses results from your inaccurate idea that salvation is an event, not a lifelong process as well as what sounds like dispensationalism.

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Either you're not reading and understanding what people here are saying, or you don't understand what adding your performance to faith for salvation really means.

If you add your performance to the finished work of Jesus, ultimately what you are saying is that Jesus' righteousness is not fully imputed to us upon faith. This directly denies what Paul says in Romans:

"But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it - the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith." (Romans 3:21-25)

"For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law." (Romans 3:28)

"And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness," (Romans 4:5)

I sincerely ask you, WHERE is the Bible (God's word, right?) saying that Jesus' righteousness isn't imputed to us fully until we've done something outside of our faith? How can this imputaton be a GIFT received upon FAITH, if you don't get it until you do something? That would mean it is not a gift, but a wage/reward. Is Paul wrong here?

Salvation happens at the moment of faith. At the moment of faith, you received the gift, as Paul said above. This was true for the thief on the cross, and it was true for the sinful woman in Luke 7. It was true for the household of Cornelius in Acts. They received the Holy Spirit upon hearing and believing the gospel. Here's what the Bible (God's word, right?) says about receiving the Holy Spirit and what it means:

"In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory." (Ephesians 1:13-14)

"And it is God who establishes us with you in Christ, and has anointed us, and who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee." (2 Corinthians 1:21-22)

"And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption." (Ephesians 4:30)


Do you see that? the Holy Spirit is a SEAL. A GUARANTEE.
**** When does a believer receive the Holy Spirit? Upon belief, or after a life long process?

You callng this "BTD's gospel" is denying the biblical gospel. Please read and understand what the bible is trying to tell you.

Realitybites said:

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Once again, no one has made the argument that justification is through one's own righteousness.

Your misunderstanding of those verses results from your inaccurate idea that salvation is an event, not a lifelong process as well as what sounds like dispensationalism.

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Dispensationalism is the correct interpretation of Scripture

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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It doesn't take much brain power to understand the difference between "work OUT" and "work FOR". Just try. English isn't your second language, is it?

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Classy.

Like I said, a distinction without a difference.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Jesus comes back to earth to set up his millenial kingdom for a thousand years, and at the end of the thousand years is the White Throne judgement.

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Whoa!?!? Forgive my ignorance on this, but are you saying that you believe in a Rapture where the good are taking up to heaven (with the beam of light like in the Left Behind series) and the rest of humanity is to suffer?

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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True faith is defined in Hebrews 11.

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I see people doing things (work) in their faith:
By faith, Noah … built an ark.
By faith, Abraham … obeyed and went … made his home.
By faith, Issac blessed Jacob and Esau
By faith, Jacob blessed Joseph's sons.
Etc.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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If you're saying that you need more than just faith, that you need to perform sacraments/works for salvation, then yes, you are requiring works for salvation.

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Nope, just faith working thru charity.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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I'm not changing any definition of "justification". I'm recognizing that the word has different meanings in different contexts. Can you falsify what I said about James 2:24?

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Yes, you are interpreting "justification" by your beliefs. If I changed what the author originally meant I could prove almost anything.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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"Baptism by desire" is just an ad hoc creation for Roman Catholicism to get out of a hole. What if the person doesn't desire it because they never heard about getting baptized? "Well, if they would have desired it if they knew about it, then it counts". And so on, and so on. So of course such ad hoc beliefs gets rejected. Water baptism is what Christians should do to obey Jesus, but your salvation doesn't depend on it. It's baptism by the Spirit that counts. And that happens upon belief.

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God won't ask us to do the impossible.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Believers will be judged by their works to determine rewards, not to determine their salvation. So you DO think salvation is by works, then? You're all over the place.
"Faith working in love", even if does mean doing works, is not saying that the works is what saves you. Especially since Paul was abundantly clear that faith apart from works is what saves. Proof texting isn't going to eliminate what he clearly spelled out elsewhere.

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You are hung up on the word "faith" without defining what it means. I've biblically demonstrated three ways to interpret the word.

Realitybites said:

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Once again, no one has made the argument that justification is through one's own righteousness.

Your misunderstanding of those verses results from your inaccurate idea that salvation is an event, not a lifelong process as well as what sounds like dispensationalism.

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That's because justification is through the righteousness of Christ being applied to our account when we place our faith in him and what he did on the cross to pay for our sins.

Quote:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Jesus comes back to earth to set up his millenial kingdom for a thousand years, and at the end of the thousand years is the White Throne judgement.

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Whoa!?!? Forgive my ignorance on this, but are you saying that you believe in a Rapture where the good are taking up to heaven (with the beam of light like in the Left Behind series) and the rest of humanity is to suffer?

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Many Evangelicals believe in Chiliasm, though the numbers are decreasing. This heresy was revived in England in the late 19th century, and peaked with Hal Lindsey-Tim LaHaye types in the late 20th.

Coke Bear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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It doesn't take much brain power to understand the difference between "work OUT" and "work FOR". Just try. English isn't your second language, is it?

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Classy.

Like I said, a distinction without a difference.

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Really think about what you're saying. If "work out" means the same thing as "work for", then Paul is saying to work FOR your salvation... when he had already clearly explained in Romans that you DON'T work for your salvation. Therefore, they can't mean the same thing, otherwise Paul is contradicting himself.

You're just not thinking these things through.

Cok said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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I'm not changing any definition of "justification". I'm recognizing that the word has different meanings in different contexts. Can you falsify what I said about James 2:24?

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Yes, you are interpreting "justification" by your beliefs. If I changed what the author originally meant I could prove almost anything.

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Think hard about what you're saying here, too. You're making the same mistake as above. If both Paul and James were talking about the same "justification", then one is saying that it is apart from works, while the other is saying it is with works. Once again, you're asserting that the Bible is in contradiction.

If you don't believe the Bible is in contradiction, then you have to believe that Paul and James are talking about different "justifications". Again, you're not thinking this through. In your zeal to try and argue against me, you're making assertions that destroy your own faith.

Coke Bear said:

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I see people doing things (work) in their faith:

By faith, Noah … built an ark.
By faith, Abraham … obeyed and went … made his home.
By faith, Issac blessed Jacob and Esau
By faith, Jacob blessed Joseph's sons.
Etc.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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If you're saying that you need more than just faith, that you need to perform sacraments/works for salvation, then yes, you are requiring works for salvation.

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Nope, just faith working thru charity.

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Ask yourself this - when did Paul say Abraham was justified to righteousness? It was BEFORE he obeyed anything, before his faith "worked thru charity" or anything like that. See Romans 4:

"For we say that faith was counted to Abraham as righteousness. How then was it counted to him? Was it before or after he had been circumcised? It was not after, but before he was circumcised."

Your view of faith is in contradiction with what Paul says in Romans.

Quote:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Believers will be judged by their works to determine rewards, not to determine their salvation. So you DO think salvation is by works, then? You're all over the place.
"Faith working in love", even if does mean doing works, is not saying that the works is what saves you. Especially since Paul was abundantly clear that faith apart from works is what saves. Proof texting isn't going to eliminate what he clearly spelled out elsewhere.

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You are hung up on the word "faith" without defining what it means. I've biblically demonstrated three ways to interpret the word.

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And I've provided the biblical definition of it straight out of the Bible (Hebrews 11:1). Your interpretations are all adding works to the biblical definition.

"Lord Almighty, God of powers and of all flesh, who livest on high yet takest care for things below, who triest hearts and reins and clearly foreknowest the secrets of men: thou art the Light without beginning, who ever art, in whom there is neither variation nor shadow of change. O King immortal, accept the prayers which we, trusting in the multitude of thy compassions, now offer thee from defiled lips. Forgive all the iniquities we have committed in deed or word or thought, in knowledge or in ignorance. Cleanse us from all defilement of flesh and spirit. Grant us to pass through the entire night of this present life with wakeful heart and sober mind, awaiting the coming of the radiant day of the appearing of thine Only-begotten Son, our Lord and God and Savior Jesus Christ, when the Judge of all shall come with glory to reward each according to his deeds. May we not be found fallen and idle, but alert and roused to action, prepared to enter into his joy and the divine bridal chamber of his glory, where the voice of those who feast is unceasing, and the sweetness of those who behold the ineffable beauty of thy countenance is beyond telling. For thou art the true Light that enlightens and sanctifies all things, and all creation doth extol thee in song, unto ages of ages. Amen"

BTD, do you have an issue with the theology of this prayer?

Realitybites said:

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"Lord Almighty, God of powers and of all flesh, who livest on high yet takest care for things below, who triest hearts and reins and clearly foreknowest the secrets of men: thou art the Light without beginning, who ever art, in whom there is neither variation nor shadow of change. O King immortal, accept the prayers which we, trusting in the multitude of thy compassions, now offer thee from defiled lips. Forgive all the iniquities we have committed in deed or word or thought, in knowledge or in ignorance. Cleanse us from all defilement of flesh and spirit. Grant us to pass through the entire night of this present life with wakeful heart and sober mind, awaiting the coming of the radiant day of the appearing of thine Only-begotten Son, our Lord and God and Savior Jesus Christ, when the Judge of all shall come with glory to reward each according to his deeds. May we not be found fallen and idle, but alert and roused to action, prepared to enter into his joy and the divine bridal chamber of his glory, where the voice of those who feast is unceasing, and the sweetness of those who behold the ineffable beauty of thy countenance is beyond telling. For thou art the true Light that enlightens and sanctifies all things, and all creation doth extol thee in song, unto ages of ages. Amen"

BTD, do you have an issue with the theology of this prayer?

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No, not at all. There isn't anything there that conflicts with Scripture. Scripture is the only infallible authority from which we are to get our theology. All else must be measured against it.

xfrodobagginsx said:

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Realitybites said:

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Once again, no one has made the argument that justification is through one's own righteousness.

Your misunderstanding of those verses results from your inaccurate idea that salvation is an event, not a lifelong process as well as what sounds like dispensationalism.

---

Dispensationalism is the correct interpretation of Scripture

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It's just a crutch.

curtpenn said:

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xfrodobagginsx said:

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Realitybites said:

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Once again, no one has made the argument that justification is through one's own righteousness.

Your misunderstanding of those verses results from your inaccurate idea that salvation is an event, not a lifelong process as well as what sounds like dispensationalism.

---

Dispensationalism is the correct interpretation of Scripture

---

It's just a crutch.

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If you understand the Dispensationalist view, you will finally understand Scripture and how it fits the way it does. You don't understand because you don't want to. If you wanted to, you could.

Try Les Feldick. He Walks You Through The Bible In 25 Minute Lessons

https://www.lesfeldick.org/

Father Roman Braga, priest monk of the Romanian Orthodox Church who was imprisoned and put in solitary confinement for three years by Romania's communist government for his faith, speaking in Franklin, Tennessee in 1995.

How would your faith fare if you were in prison for 5 years, 3 of it in solitary confinement without a congregation, without music, without a Bible?

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Quote:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Believers will be judged by their works to determine rewards, not to determine their salvation. So you DO think salvation is by works, then? You're all over the place.
"Faith working in love", even if does mean doing works, is not saying that the works is what saves you. Especially since Paul was abundantly clear that faith apart from works is what saves. Proof texting isn't going to eliminate what he clearly spelled out elsewhere.

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You are hung up on the word "faith" without defining what it means. I've biblically demonstrated three ways to interpret the word.

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And I've provided the biblical definition of it straight out of the Bible (Hebrews 11:1). Your interpretations are all adding works to the biblical definition.

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Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see.

The demons also have this faith.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Ask yourself this - when did Paul say Abraham was justified to righteousness? It was BEFORE he obeyed anything, before his faith "worked thru charity" or anything like that. See Romans 4:

"For we say that faith was counted to Abraham as righteousness. How then was it counted to him? Was it before or after he had been circumcised? It was not after, but before he was circumcised."

Your view of faith is in contradiction with what Paul says in Romans.

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Matthew 7:21 -
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

What is doing the will of the Father? That's sounds like faith working thru charity. Getting to heaven is more than altar call or a sinner's prayer.

Yes, we are justified by faith, HOWEVER, we can LOSE that salvation with our actions.

xfrodobagginsx said:

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curtpenn said:

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xfrodobagginsx said:

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Realitybites said:

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Once again, no one has made the argument that justification is through one's own righteousness.

Your misunderstanding of those verses results from your inaccurate idea that salvation is an event, not a lifelong process as well as what sounds like dispensationalism.

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Dispensationalism is the correct interpretation of Scripture

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It's just a crutch.

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If you understand the Dispensationalist view, you will finally understand Scripture and how it fits the way it does. You don't understand because you don't want to. If you wanted to, you could.

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Nope. Was introduced to it in 1972. Still have my heavily underlined loose leaf Schofield Reference Bible that was my go to Bible for about 25 years. Next…

Coke Bear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Quote:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Believers will be judged by their works to determine rewards, not to determine their salvation. So you DO think salvation is by works, then? You're all over the place.
"Faith working in love", even if does mean doing works, is not saying that the works is what saves you. Especially since Paul was abundantly clear that faith apart from works is what saves. Proof texting isn't going to eliminate what he clearly spelled out elsewhere.

---

You are hung up on the word "faith" without defining what it means. I've biblically demonstrated three ways to interpret the word.

---

And I've provided the biblical definition of it straight out of the Bible (Hebrews 11:1). Your interpretations are all adding works to the biblical definition.

---

Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see.

The demons also have this faith.

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You believe demons have faith in a loving God and a sure Redeemer who intercedes on their behalf?

I think you are mistaken if you think so.

Realitybites said:

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Father Roman Braga, priest monk of the Romanian Orthodox Church who was imprisoned and put in solitary confinement for three years by Romania's communist government for his faith, speaking in Franklin, Tennessee in 1995.

How would your faith fare if you were in prison for 5 years, 3 of it in solitary confinement without a congregation, without music, without a Bible?

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Felt a but like covid with no communion for
Months while the muslims went to whatever they call their service.

Oldbear83 said:

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Coke Bear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Quote:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Believers will be judged by their works to determine rewards, not to determine their salvation. So you DO think salvation is by works, then? You're all over the place.
"Faith working in love", even if does mean doing works, is not saying that the works is what saves you. Especially since Paul was abundantly clear that faith apart from works is what saves. Proof texting isn't going to eliminate what he clearly spelled out elsewhere.

---

You are hung up on the word "faith" without defining what it means. I've biblically demonstrated three ways to interpret the word.

---

And I've provided the biblical definition of it straight out of the Bible (Hebrews 11:1). Your interpretations are all adding works to the biblical definition.

---

Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see.

The demons also have this faith.

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You believe demons have faith in a loving God and a sure Redeemer who intercedes on their behalf?

I think you are mistaken if you think so.

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Probably some nuance in your comment but clearly thy know who Jesus is and who God is and have infinite conviction of whats to become of them. Maybe thats not faith because its actually beyond faith

Kinda like what Carl Jung says in this brief clip:

Oldbear83 said:

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Coke Bear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Quote:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Believers will be judged by their works to determine rewards, not to determine their salvation. So you DO think salvation is by works, then? You're all over the place.
"Faith working in love", even if does mean doing works, is not saying that the works is what saves you. Especially since Paul was abundantly clear that faith apart from works is what saves. Proof texting isn't going to eliminate what he clearly spelled out elsewhere.

---

You are hung up on the word "faith" without defining what it means. I've biblically demonstrated three ways to interpret the word.

---

And I've provided the biblical definition of it straight out of the Bible (Hebrews 11:1). Your interpretations are all adding works to the biblical definition.

---

Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see.

The demons also have this faith.

---

You believe demons have faith in a loving God and a sure Redeemer who intercedes on their behalf?

I think you are mistaken if you think so.

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Double post