Coke Bear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Quote:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Believers will be judged by their works to determine rewards, not to determine their salvation. So you DO think salvation is by works, then? You're all over the place.
"Faith working in love", even if does mean doing works, is not saying that the works is what saves you. Especially since Paul was abundantly clear that faith apart from works is what saves. Proof texting isn't going to eliminate what he clearly spelled out elsewhere.

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You are hung up on the word "faith" without defining what it means. I've biblically demonstrated three ways to interpret the word.

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And I've provided the biblical definition of it straight out of the Bible (Hebrews 11:1). Your interpretations are all adding works to the biblical definition.

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Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see.

The demons also have this faith.

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If you really think this, you just don't have any understanding.

Coke Bear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Ask yourself this - when did Paul say Abraham was justified to righteousness? It was BEFORE he obeyed anything, before his faith "worked thru charity" or anything like that. See Romans 4:

"For we say that faith was counted to Abraham as righteousness. How then was it counted to him? Was it before or after he had been circumcised? It was not after, but before he was circumcised."

Your view of faith is in contradiction with what Paul says in Romans.

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Matthew 7:21 -
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

What is doing the will of the Father? That's sounds like faith working thru charity. Getting to heaven is more than altar call or a sinner's prayer.

Yes, we are justified by faith, HOWEVER, we can LOSE that salvation with our actions.

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Doing the will of the Father is believing in Jesus (John 6:28-29).

If we lose our salvation by our works, even while we still have faith, then faith does not justify us, and ultimately we are saved by our own merit/performance.

And if we lose our salvation by our works, then salvation is not a gift, and the Holy Spirit we receive is NOT a seal and guarantee as the Bible promised.

This is a flat out denial of the Gospel.

Fre3dombear said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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Coke Bear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Quote:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Believers will be judged by their works to determine rewards, not to determine their salvation. So you DO think salvation is by works, then? You're all over the place.
"Faith working in love", even if does mean doing works, is not saying that the works is what saves you. Especially since Paul was abundantly clear that faith apart from works is what saves. Proof texting isn't going to eliminate what he clearly spelled out elsewhere.

---

You are hung up on the word "faith" without defining what it means. I've biblically demonstrated three ways to interpret the word.

---

And I've provided the biblical definition of it straight out of the Bible (Hebrews 11:1). Your interpretations are all adding works to the biblical definition.

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Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see.

The demons also have this faith.

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You believe demons have faith in a loving God and a sure Redeemer who intercedes on their behalf?

I think you are mistaken if you think so.

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Double post

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I guess you really meant it, then?



I do think it's important to discern between faith and belief and recognition and assurance.

Those words in Scripture are chosen, you know.

It's an interesting point about the demons, though. Imagine having perfect knowledge of eternity, which of course means the demons absolutely know their fates, and have absolutely no hope, because they understand perfect justice and have each of them rejected God's grace right from the start.

What I think too many of us don't think enough about, is how lucky we are to be in the place we are. While we must go through our mortal lives with limited knowledge at best, we all - even the worst person breathing today - has the opportunity to be not only forgiven for all our mistakes and wrong, not only reconciled with our Creator so that we may come to know Him, but even to be His children, to be family both with each other and with our Lord.

I frankly lack the words to describe the scale of such love and grace and perfect planning.

We don't deserve it, none of us, but there it is anyway.

Praise be to God!

Oldbear83 said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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Coke Bear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Quote:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Believers will be judged by their works to determine rewards, not to determine their salvation. So you DO think salvation is by works, then? You're all over the place.
"Faith working in love", even if does mean doing works, is not saying that the works is what saves you. Especially since Paul was abundantly clear that faith apart from works is what saves. Proof texting isn't going to eliminate what he clearly spelled out elsewhere.

---

You are hung up on the word "faith" without defining what it means. I've biblically demonstrated three ways to interpret the word.

---

And I've provided the biblical definition of it straight out of the Bible (Hebrews 11:1). Your interpretations are all adding works to the biblical definition.

---

Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see.

The demons also have this faith.

---

You believe demons have faith in a loving God and a sure Redeemer who intercedes on their behalf?

I think you are mistaken if you think so.

---

Double post

---

I guess you really meant it, then?



I do think it's important to discern between faith and belief and recognition and assurance.

Those words in Scripture are chosen, you know.

It's an interesting point about the demons, though. Imagine having perfect knowledge of eternity, which of course means the demons absolutely know their fates, and have absolutely no hope, because they understand perfect justice and have each of them rejected God's grace right from the start.

What I think too many of us don't think enough about, is how lucky we are to be in the place we are. While we must go through our mortal lives with limited knowledge at best, we all - even the worst person breathing today - has the opportunity to be not only forgiven for all our mistakes and wrong, not only reconciled with our Creator so that we may come to know Him, but even to be His children, to be family both with each other and with our Lord.

I frankly lack the words to describe the scale of such love and grace and perfect planning.

We don't deserve it, none of us, but there it is anyway.

Praise be to God!

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Yes words are important.

Faith of course means an assurance of God's will, a belief in His existence, his goodness, his guarantee of fulfilling his word, a conviction of things not seen.

No doubt the demons that Jesus talks to have all these things. Its actually easier for them to have faith in what God is going to do to them than us given what they behave "seen"

I agree completely with the sentiments you shared.

I fear for those here that believe theres nothing God calls us to do to obtain such a gift other than just have faith, as faith without works is dead, faith alone is nowhere, and many other examples and believing one could never lose their salvation. Those are very risky beliefs and hopefully it all works out for them but thats all been discussed to death and each will do as they do. One the harder parh, one the easier path.

I guess those demons never believed as angels what their own eyes or whatever showed them as God as their actions still woth that knowledge led to the fall, even after seeing and being in the presence of God

An awfully grumpy post from you if you agree with my sentiments!

Oldbear83 said:

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An awfully grumpy post from you if you agree with my sentiments!

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Well specifically we should he thankful for this lottery ticket opportunity we have

Please take the time to read this first post if you haven't yet

Fre3dombear said:

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Felt a but like covid with no communion for
Months while the muslims went to whatever they call their service.

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Although I was getting increasingly uncomfortable with a half hour of "Jesus is my boyfriend" music masquerading as worship, I stopped going to the SBC after moving when the church I visited aired a Russell Moore video about how we needed to welcome illegal aliens during the announcements. Did a deep dive into church history, and considered the claims of the Lutherans, the Roman Catholics, and Orthodoxy. Then Covid hit, and the only church in our town that refused to close its doors and refused to change anything about the service was the Orthodox church. This was in a red state where the rest of them could have stayed open and shut their doors voluntarily. And you know, we didn't lose a single parishoner.

Faith works (and I mean that in every aspect of the meaning of that second word).

Coke Bear said:

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Yes, we are justified by faith, HOWEVER, we can LOSE that salvation with our actions.

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Yes, the Bible is quite clear on this.

"For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: "A dog returns to his own vomit," and, "a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire." (2nd Peter 2:20-22)

"When an unclean spirit goes out of a man, he goes through dry places, seeking rest; and finding none, he says, 'I will return to my house from which I came.' And when he comes, he finds it swept and put in order. Then he goes and takes with him seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter and dwell there; and the last state of that man is worse than the first." (Luke 11:24-26)

"And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him" (Hebrews 5:9)

Continuing to abide in Christ and obey him is mandatory to the process of salvation.

I cannot speak to the overall theology of this website or writer, but on the specific topic of OSAS he does a pretty good takedown.

False Assumptions About Eternal Security

Next time you go to confession, maybe tell the priest how you use Christ basically as just a 'lottery ticket'

Realitybites said:

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Coke Bear said:

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Yes, we are justified by faith, HOWEVER, we can LOSE that salvation with our actions.

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Yes, the Bible is quite clear on this.

"For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: "A dog returns to his own vomit," and, "a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire." (2nd Peter 2:20-22)

"When an unclean spirit goes out of a man, he goes through dry places, seeking rest; and finding none, he says, 'I will return to my house from which I came.' And when he comes, he finds it swept and put in order. Then he goes and takes with him seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter and dwell there; and the last state of that man is worse than the first." (Luke 11:24-26)

"And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him" (Hebrews 5:9)

Continuing to abide in Christ and obey him is mandatory to the process of salvation.

I cannot speak to the overall theology of this website or writer, but on the specific topic of OSAS he does a pretty good takedown.

False Assumptions About Eternal Security

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2nd Peter chapter 2 is about false teachers and believers. It's not about true believers. See how the verse you cited says "knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus..." Knowledge, not faith.

Luke 11:24-26 isn't about believers either. This is about the unbelieving, wicked generation of Israel that Jesus cast woes on. Look at the same account in Matthew 12:43-45 where it makes this clear.

Hebrews 5:9 and the meaning of "obey" - if our salvation is dependent on our obedience, then what degree of obedience is required? What's the cutoff point? How can 1 John 5:13 say we can KNOW we are saved, if we don't know if we've reached the cutoff point or not? How can Paul proclaim that the Holy Spirit we received immediately upon faith is a SEAL and GUARANTEE of our salvation, if we still have yet to reach a certain degree of obedience?

If "obey" means our performance and effort, then you're saying that Hebrews 5:9 is teaching salvation by faith and works. But how does this square with the apostle Paul's teaching, that we are saved by our faith apart from our works?? Is the Bible in contradiction?

Oldbear83 said:

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Next time you go to confession, maybe tell the priest how you use Christ basically as just a 'lottery ticket'

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Not sure if thats a serious comment. I Go every other week generally. Ill ask him what you may mean by that.

What i was saying in the use of that metaphor is imagining the vastness of the universe and to be a human alive after the Savior has come and died and risen again, the odds of being here with that opportunity are infinite. A lotto ticket odds dont even compare.

But you knew all that of course.

I recommend confession for all us lowly sinners. And so does the Bible

Confession is a great blessing, agreed.


But we may confess directly to our Lord. No priest required, although there is sometimes value in speaking with someone you know has a strong relationship with the Lord, and solid experience with Scripture.

Oldbear83 said:

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Confession is a great blessing, agreed.


But we may confess directly to our Lord. No priest required, although there is sometimes value in speaking with someone you know has a strong relationship with the Lord, and solid experience with Scripture.

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TRUE

1 Timothy 2:5 KJV
[5] For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Oldbear83 said:

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Confession is a great blessing, agreed.


But we may confess directly to our Lord. No priest required, although there is sometimes value in speaking with someone you know has a strong relationship with the Lord, and solid experience with Scripture.

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Confession directly to the Lord is absolutely valid and encouraged. It is not that such confession is invalid, or is somehow "less valid" than a formal confession if heartfelt.

In a sacramental confession, the priest serves as your accountability partner and God forgives the sin. You stand before the altar, and confess directly to God as He is the offended party. One of the key aspects of sacramental confession is the guidance the priest gives you on how to use to the spiritual disciplines Christ gave his church to "go and sin no more", as Jesus commanded. So really sacramental confession is as much about your tomorrow as it is your yesterday. This is the aspect of sacramental confession that is missing from DIY confession. At least this is true of sacramental confession in the Orthodox church.

I cannot say to what degree this is true of Roman Catholic reconciliation, as I've only witnessed the as seen on TV version of that (go into a confessional booth, talk to a priest anonymously, get a prescription for a set of hail marys or other penitential acts to have your sins forgiven).

Oldbear83 said:

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You believe demons have faith in a loving God and a sure Redeemer who intercedes on their behalf?

I think you are mistaken if you think so.

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Oldbear my friend, I'm trying to demonstrate that a difference exists in faith and a faith that saves. Often times people take one passages and build a theology around it, rather than looking at the entire passage or even as the bible as a whole to determine theology.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Doing the will of the Father is believing in Jesus (John 6:28-29).

If we lose our salvation by our works, even while we still have faith, then faith does not justify us, and ultimately we are saved by our own merit/performance.

And if we lose our salvation by our works, then salvation is not a gift, and the Holy Spirit we receive is NOT a seal and guarantee as the Bible promised.

This is a flat out denial of the Gospel.

---

You are so close, but you are stopping there with JUST believing in Jesus.

Even the demons believe.

Doing the will of the Father is living in accordance with God's commands and Christ's teachings:

• Loving God and thy neighbor


• Following Christ's teachings - getting baptized, living out the beatitudes


• Obeying God's commandments - not committing moral sin


• Embracing the Cross


• Seeking God's kingdom


• Discernment and prayer


• Living a life of service and charity

The foundation of your theology is warped by a Once Saved, Always Saved false belief.

Many passages in the Bible demonstrate that OSAS is completely false and antibiblical.

Oldbear83 said:

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Confession is a great blessing, agreed.


But we may confess directly to our Lord. No priest required, although there is sometimes value in speaking with someone you know has a strong relationship with the Lord, and solid experience with Scripture.

---

Catholics completely agree that we should confess our sins to God.

But the "No priest required" statement is in complete conflict with what Jesus says in John 20:21-23 and what James says in 5:16.

Coke Bear said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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You believe demons have faith in a loving God and a sure Redeemer who intercedes on their behalf?

I think you are mistaken if you think so.

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Oldbear my friend, I'm trying to demonstrate that a difference exists in faith and a faith that saves. Often times people take one passages and build a theology around it, rather than looking at the entire passage or even as the bible as a whole to determine theology.

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Changing the context of a word to make an argument is dishonest, not worthy of you, Coke Bear.

Coke Bear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Doing the will of the Father is believing in Jesus (John 6:28-29).

If we lose our salvation by our works, even while we still have faith, then faith does not justify us, and ultimately we are saved by our own merit/performance.

And if we lose our salvation by our works, then salvation is not a gift, and the Holy Spirit we receive is NOT a seal and guarantee as the Bible promised.

This is a flat out denial of the Gospel.

---

You are so close, but you are stopping there with JUST believing in Jesus.

Even the demons believe.

Doing the will of the Father is living in accordance with God's commands and Christ's teachings:

• Loving God and thy neighbor


• Following Christ's teachings - getting baptized, living out the beatitudes


• Obeying God's commandments - not committing moral sin


• Embracing the Cross


• Seeking God's kingdom


• Discernment and prayer


• Living a life of service and charity

The foundation of your theology is warped by a Once Saved, Always Saved false belief.

Many passages in the Bible demonstrate that OSAS is completely false and antibiblical.

---

This is where the use of the word Faith in english gets watered down to a kinder gentler version that many think it means today verses what was meant when the greek pen was put to paper.

Its almost akin to saying i confess my sins to God versus participating regularly in the sacrament of Confession.

Coke Bear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Doing the will of the Father is believing in Jesus (John 6:28-29).

If we lose our salvation by our works, even while we still have faith, then faith does not justify us, and ultimately we are saved by our own merit/performance.

And if we lose our salvation by our works, then salvation is not a gift, and the Holy Spirit we receive is NOT a seal and guarantee as the Bible promised.

This is a flat out denial of the Gospel.

---

You are so close, but you are stopping there with JUST believing in Jesus.

Even the demons believe.

Doing the will of the Father is living in accordance with God's commands and Christ's teachings:

• Loving God and thy neighbor
• Following Christ's teachings - getting baptized, living out the beatitudes
• Obeying God's commandments - not committing moral sin
• Embracing the Cross
• Seeking God's kingdom
• Discernment and prayer
• Living a life of service and charity

The foundation of your theology is warped by a Once Saved, Always Saved false belief.

Many passages in the Bible demonstrate that OSAS is completely false and antibiblical.

---

Why do you always get the "demons believe" thing wrong? After it's been explained over and over?? tFor like the 10th time, the verse says that the demons believe "God is one". That isn't an assurance of something hoped for and confidence that they've received it, like we have in Jesus for our salvation. It's something they KNOW having been in the presence of God before. And it isn't a faith in Jesus, because Jesus didn't die for them. They are not offered salvation. Jesus death only paid for the sins of man, because Jesus was a man.

If you really can't understand this, is there any point in trying to get you to understand the true gospel? All the things you listed as doing the will of God is true, but it's not a checklist of things to do in order to be saved. The Bible is clear that we are made righteous by our faith in Jesus, apart from anything we do.

Answer the questions you keep avoiding: when did Paul say Abraham was made righteous - BEFORE he did anything in obedience to God (getting circumcised and offering Isaac on the altar), or AFTER?? And how can 1 John 5:13 say we can KNOW we are saved, if under your system of salvation, no one can really know??

There's a reason you avoid these questions.

Fre3dombear said:

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Coke Bear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Doing the will of the Father is believing in Jesus (John 6:28-29).

If we lose our salvation by our works, even while we still have faith, then faith does not justify us, and ultimately we are saved by our own merit/performance.

And if we lose our salvation by our works, then salvation is not a gift, and the Holy Spirit we receive is NOT a seal and guarantee as the Bible promised.

This is a flat out denial of the Gospel.

---

You are so close, but you are stopping there with JUST believing in Jesus.

Even the demons believe.

Doing the will of the Father is living in accordance with God's commands and Christ's teachings:

• Loving God and thy neighbor
• Following Christ's teachings - getting baptized, living out the beatitudes
• Obeying God's commandments - not committing moral sin
• Embracing the Cross
• Seeking God's kingdom
• Discernment and prayer
• Living a life of service and charity

The foundation of your theology is warped by a Once Saved, Always Saved false belief.

Many passages in the Bible demonstrate that OSAS is completely false and antibiblical.

---

This is where the use of the word Faith in english gets watered down to a kinder gentler version that many think it means today verses what was meant when the greek pen was put to paper.

Its almost akin to saying i confess my sins to God versus participating regularly in the sacrament of Confession.

---

You seem awfully interested in rituals and tokenism.

Did Elijah's showdown with the priests of Baal not teach you the danger therein?

My take is that We are saved by the blood of Jesus Christ and believing in Him and what He did for us. After our conversion, As Christians we are to act upon our belief, and our actions are recorded in the Book of Life, by which we shall be judged. If a person claims to believe but his actions and motives are not reflective of what he says he believes then he is going to have issues when that Book is opened.

BUDOS said:

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My take is that We are saved by the blood of Jesus Christ and believing in Him and what He did for us. After our conversion, As Christians we are to act upon our behalf, and our actions are recorded in the Book of Life, by which we shall be judged. If a person claims to believe but his actions and motives are not reflective of what he says he believes then he is going to have issues when that Book is opened.

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It's not really that hard.

Suppose someone helps you in a really bad time, takes care of you and gives you a chance to start again and be whole.


Someone like that, you'd be proud to have them as a friend and do whatever you could to show you are grateful.

If we would do that for a great human friend, why wouldn't we be very happy to find out the Lord cares for us and wants us whole? Why would we avoid doing things that please Him, why wouldn't we want to become better people, to show our gratitude and joy in being able to call Him Lord?

BUDOS said:

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My take is that We are saved by the blood of Jesus Christ and believing in Him and what He did for us. After our conversion, As Christians we are to act upon our belief, and our actions are recorded in the Book of Life, by which we shall be judged. If a person claims to believe but his actions and motives are not reflective of what he says he believes then he is going to have issues when that Book is opened.

---

But according to this, the imputation of Jesus' righteousness doesn't happen upon belief, but rather only at the end when the Book of Life is opened, and it's dependent also on your works, not just your faith. This is against what Paul teaches, that Jesus' righteousness is imputed to us immediately upon faith. Also, according to your belief, one can NOT know they are saved until the final judgement at the end. But 1 John 5:13 clearly says that a believer CAN know.

So how do you reconcile your view with what's clearly taught in Scripture?

Oldbear83 said:

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BUDOS said:

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My take is that We are saved by the blood of Jesus Christ and believing in Him and what He did for us. After our conversion, As Christians we are to act upon our behalf, and our actions are recorded in the Book of Life, by which we shall be judged. If a person claims to believe but his actions and motives are not reflective of what he says he believes then he is going to have issues when that Book is opened.

---

It's not really that hard.

Suppose someone helps you in a really bad time, takes care of you and gives you a chance to start again and be whole.


Someone like that, you'd be proud to have them as a friend and do whatever you could to show you are grateful.

If we would do that for a great human friend, why wouldn't we be very happy to find out the Lord cares for us and wants us whole? Why would we avoid doing things that please Him, why wouldn't we want to become better people, to show our gratitude and joy in being able to call Him Lord?

---

Maybe you need to answer the question I asked him as well, if you think what he said is correct. (I'm not gonna hold my breath 'til you answer, obviously.)

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Why do you always get the "demons believe" thing wrong? After it's been explained over and over?? tFor like the 10th time, the verse says that the demons believe "God is one". That isn't an assurance of something hoped for and confidence that they've received it, like we have in Jesus for our salvation. It's something they KNOW having been in the presence of God before. And it isn't a faith in Jesus, because Jesus didn't die for them. They are not offered salvation. Jesus death only paid for the sins of man, because Jesus was a man.

---

I will agree that Jesus didn't die for the salvation of angels. They made their choice long before he incarnated.

My point here is that you are now trying to qualify what faith IS.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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If you really can't understand this, is there any point in trying to get you to understand the true gospel? All the things you listed as doing the will of God is true, but it's not a checklist of things to do in order to be saved. The Bible is clear that we are made righteous by our faith in Jesus, apart from anything we do.

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The Catholic Church absolutely has the TRUE gospel. She (along with the Orthodox) have all 7 sacraments that Jesus instituted. How many does your church have? What church do you belong to again? Did you make up your own church bases off your beliefs?

I never said that it was a "checklist of things to do in order to be saved". I said that is doing the will of God.

Under your system, if I don't obey God, I'm I saved?

Jim Baker brought 1000's to Christ and then "fell from glory" with embezzlement and adultery. Did Jim Baker lose his salvation before he repented?

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Answer the questions you keep avoiding: when did Paul say Abraham was made righteous - BEFORE he did anything in obedience to God (getting circumcised and offering Isaac on the altar), or AFTER?? And how can 1 John 5:13 say we can KNOW we are saved, if under your system of salvation, no one can really know??

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Abraham was saved thru his believe, faith, and expressed in his obedience to God. St Paul was demonstrating that his wasn't saved by the Mosaic "works of the Law" ceremonial and ritualistic laws, which include circumcision, etc., which hadn't been given yet. Those "works of LAW" are no longer binding on us.

1 John 5:13 is absolute of AN eternal life. It provides a moral assurance of your salvation, but NOT an absolute assurance of your salvation.

Even St. Paul said in 1 Cor 4:4 that he didn't have an absolute assurance:

I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby acquitted. It is the Lord who judges me.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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BUDOS said:

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My take is that We are saved by the blood of Jesus Christ and believing in Him and what He did for us. After our conversion, As Christians we are to act upon our belief, and our actions are recorded in the Book of Life, by which we shall be judged. If a person claims to believe but his actions and motives are not reflective of what he says he believes then he is going to have issues when that Book is opened.

---

But according to this, the imputation of Jesus' righteousness doesn't happen upon belief, but rather only at the end when the Book of Life is opened, and it's dependent also on your works, not just your faith. This is against what Paul teaches, that Jesus' righteousness is imputed to us immediately upon faith. Also, according to your belief, one can NOT know they are saved until the final judgement at the end. But 1 John 5:13 clearly says that a believer CAN know.

So how do you reconcile your view with what's clearly taught in Scripture?

---

He's much closer to correct than you.

Yes, our faith saves us, but we can lose our salvations with our actions (mortal sin - not obeying God.)

Coke Bear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Why do you always get the "demons believe" thing wrong? After it's been explained over and over?? tFor like the 10th time, the verse says that the demons believe "God is one". That isn't an assurance of something hoped for and confidence that they've received it, like we have in Jesus for our salvation. It's something they KNOW having been in the presence of God before. And it isn't a faith in Jesus, because Jesus didn't die for them. They are not offered salvation. Jesus death only paid for the sins of man, because Jesus was a man.

---

I will agree that Jesus didn't die for the salvation of angels. They made their choice long before he incarnated.

My point here is that you are now trying to qualify what faith IS. I qualified it exactly how the Bible qualifies it in Hebrews 11:1. You tried to say that the demons have the faith described here, which makes absolultely no sense. Demons don't have a hope or assurance of anything. Your comment really leads me to believe that you have a fundamental lack of understanding of even the basic concepts. to where it might be complete waste of time trying to get you to understand your errors in the concept of salvation.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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If you really can't understand this, is there any point in trying to get you to understand the true gospel? All the things you listed as doing the will of God is true, but it's not a checklist of things to do in order to be saved. The Bible is clear that we are made righteous by our faith in Jesus, apart from anything we do.

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The Catholic Church absolutely has the TRUE gospel. She (along with the Orthodox) have all 7 sacraments that Jesus instituted. How many does your church have? What church do you belong to again? Did you make up your own church bases off your beliefs? Where did Jesus, or any of his original apostles teach that these seven sacraments were necessary for one's salvation?

I never said that it was a "checklist of things to do in order to be saved". I said that is doing the will of God. You are asserting that salvation requires doing the will of God, which in turn, means that your checklist which are those things you think is doing the will of God, is needed in order to be saved.

Under your system, if I don't obey God, I'm I saved? "My" system is the biblical system, which teaches that salvation is dependent on your faith in Jesus, not by your obedience. Obedience is the fruit of a true, saving faith. If you never obey God, then it puts your faith in question, and you likely were never saved to begin with. My question to you is this: how much obedience is required for salvation? What is the cutoff point?

Jim Baker brought 1000's to Christ and then "fell from glory" with embezzlement and adultery. Did Jim Baker lose his salvation before he repented? His salvation is fully dependent on whether or not he had true faith in Jesus or not. If he had faith, then he is saved, and stays saved unless he loses that faith, which I believe the Bible teaches can not happen to those who have true faith. Salvation is not dependent on our successes or failures in obeying God, it is dependent on the complete success of Jesus. As long as we have faith in Jesus, we are credited with his righteousness for as long as Jesus lives and for as long as he remains righteous (which I don't think anyone disagrees is forever). That's the gospel. The gospel isn't that we're saved once, but then we're left to being perfect again and if we mess up, we go to Hell. That isn't good news, that's absolutely frightening news.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Answer the questions you keep avoiding: when did Paul say Abraham was made righteous - BEFORE he did anything in obedience to God (getting circumcised and offering Isaac on the altar), or AFTER?? And how can 1 John 5:13 say we can KNOW we are saved, if under your system of salvation, no one can really know??

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Abraham was saved thru his believe, faith, and expressed in his obedience to God. St Paul was demonstrating that his wasn't saved by the Mosaic "works of the Law" ceremonial and ritualistic laws, which include circumcision, etc., which hadn't been given yet. Those "works of LAW" are no longer binding on us. You're avoiding the question. You're just not being honest because you know the answer invalidates what you're saying. It's a rhetorical question. We all know the answer because it's right there in Scripture. Abraham was made righteous BEFORE he did anything in obedience to God. You are asserting we are made righteous AFTER. You are directly contradicting clear Scriptural teaching.

1 John 5:13 is absolute of AN eternal life. It provides a moral assurance of your salvation, but NOT an absolute assurance of your salvation. Even St. Paul said in 1 Cor 4:4 that he didn't have an absolute assurance: "I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby acquitted. It is the Lord who judges me." This makes absolutely no sense. "AN" eternal life is eternal life. There is only one kind. "Moral" assurance IS absolute assurance. If God goes against what's morally assured, then he would be going against his morals, which is impossible. The distinction you're creating is purely artificial for rhetorical purposes to insinuate that even though 1 John 5:13 clearly says believers CAN know they are saved, it doesn't mean that you are really saved. This is just more of that Catholic "double talk" that Roman Catholicism has to employ to get out of an obvious contradiction. 1 Corinthians 4:4 is NOT talking about judgement regarding one's salvation. Once again, you're misapplying Scripture.

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Coke Bear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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BUDOS said:

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My take is that We are saved by the blood of Jesus Christ and believing in Him and what He did for us. After our conversion, As Christians we are to act upon our belief, and our actions are recorded in the Book of Life, by which we shall be judged. If a person claims to believe but his actions and motives are not reflective of what he says he believes then he is going to have issues when that Book is opened.

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But according to this, the imputation of Jesus' righteousness doesn't happen upon belief, but rather only at the end when the Book of Life is opened, and it's dependent also on your works, not just your faith. This is against what Paul teaches, that Jesus' righteousness is imputed to us immediately upon faith. Also, according to your belief, one can NOT know they are saved until the final judgement at the end. But 1 John 5:13 clearly says that a believer CAN know.

So how do you reconcile your view with what's clearly taught in Scripture?

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He's much closer to correct than you.

Yes, our faith saves us, but we can lose our salvations with our actions (mortal sin - not obeying God.)

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Given that you're clearly and deeply steeped in marian idolatry (which I will bet that he knows) I don't think he would take your endorsement as a good sign. If I were him, it would make me think twice about what I just said.

I'm waiting for their answer to my questions. If they can't answer it reasonably, then we'll see how much closer to being correct you say they are.

If mortal sin is not obeying God, then you're performing a mortal sin daily and continually. Because God's greatest commandment is to "love the Lord with all your heart, mind, and strength" and to "be perfect, as I am perfect". Have you given it your all for the Lord today? Are you perfect? If breaking God's greatest commandment is not as bad as any in your Catholic list of "mortal sins", then you're saying your list is greater than what God says is his first and greatest commandment.

If sin can void our salvation, then Paul is wrong when he clearly states that we receive the Holy Spirit the moment we truly believe, and it is a SEAL and GUARANTEE of our salvation. It also would make John wrong when he says that true believers can KNOW they are saved (morally or otherwise). It would make Jesus wrong to tell the thief on the cross and the sinful woman of Luke 7 that they were saved. He even told the woman to go in peace. What peace, if a "mortal sin" sends her to Hell? And why didn't Jesus tell that to her?

Simply because you believe what you believe and that is your right. I have no desire in getting into your Pharisaic world, which we all know how that ends.
I believe because I believe that Christ is my Savior and Redeemer that I am saved. However, that, by itself will not get me to heaven, unless my actions since then reflect my belief and my love for Christ, then I will be redirected to hell.
I have read, studied and taught on this subject, including going over the verses referring to this topic and Paul's and Peter's statements. This includes the Greek meaning and context. Not saying that I am a Bible scholar, nor that I'm closed minded on the subject. I am saying I am quite comfortable in where I am.
I don't disagree that the moment you believe that your salvation exists; however, your actions are recorded in the Book of Life. Additionally, although we will sin put that salvation in jeopardy, we can go to Him and ask for forgiveness and repent.

BUDOS said:

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Simply because you believe what you believe and that is your right. I have no desire in getting into your Pharisaic world, which we all know how that ends.
I believe because I believe that Christ is my Savior and Redeemer that I am saved. However, that, by itself will not get me to heaven, unless my actions since then reflect my belief and my love for Christ, then I will be redirected to hell.
I have read, studied and taught on this subject, including going over the verses referring to this topic and Paul's and Peter's statements. This includes the Greek meaning and context. Not saying that I am a Bible scholar, nor that I'm closed minded on the subject. I am saying I am quite comfortable in where I am.
I don't disagree that the moment you believe that your salvation exists; however, your actions are recorded in the Book of Life. Additionally, although we will sin put that salvation in jeopardy, we can go to Him and ask for forgiveness and repent.

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Okay, but you're not doing anything here to resolve your contradiction with Paul and John's teaching. You're resorting to what everyone else resorts to - calling me a Pharisee. I don't know why you guys think that magically makes your contradiction disappear. It never ceases to amaze me how many of you think that when you hold people to what Scripture actually says, that means you're being a Pharisee.

So can you address the question?

Of course, but it we know it won't change your mind.
I will respond in a bit. Currently I need to finish my Bible lesson for Sunday. Get back to you by tomorrow morning.

BUDOS said:

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Of course, but it we know it won't change your mind.
I will respond in a bit. Currently I need to finish my Bible lesson for Sunday. Get back to you by tomorrow morning.

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If your answer contradicts biblical teaching, then no one should change their mind.

And if you're contradicting the Bible, you shouldn't be teaching it.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Jim Baker brought 1000's to Christ and then "fell from glory" with embezzlement and adultery. Did Jim Baker lose his salvation before he repented? His salvation is fully dependent on whether or not he had true faith in Jesus or not. If he had faith, then he is saved, and stays saved unless he loses that faith, which I believe the Bible teaches can not happen to those who have true faith. Salvation is not dependent on our successes or failures in obeying God, it is dependent on the complete success of Jesus. As long as we have faith in Jesus, we are credited with his righteousness for as long as Jesus lives and for as long as he remains righteous (which I don't think anyone disagrees is forever). That's the gospel. The gospel isn't that we're saved once, but then we're left to being perfect again and if we mess up, we go to Hell. That isn't good news, that's absolutely frightening news.

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Jim Baker was interviewed (I believe while still in prison) and was asked when he stopped loving Jesus. He said in response, "Oh, I never stopped loving Jesus. I lost my fear of the Lord."

Are you are saying that even with all the embezzlement, lying, and adultery, he never lost salvation because he never stopped loving Jesus?