Coke Bear said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Jim Baker brought 1000's to Christ and then "fell from glory" with embezzlement and adultery. Did Jim Baker lose his salvation before he repented? His salvation is fully dependent on whether or not he had true faith in Jesus or not. If he had faith, then he is saved, and stays saved unless he loses that faith, which I believe the Bible teaches can not happen to those who have true faith. Salvation is not dependent on our successes or failures in obeying God, it is dependent on the complete success of Jesus. As long as we have faith in Jesus, we are credited with his righteousness for as long as Jesus lives and for as long as he remains righteous (which I don't think anyone disagrees is forever). That's the gospel. The gospel isn't that we're saved once, but then we're left to being perfect again and if we mess up, we go to Hell. That isn't good news, that's absolutely frightening news.

---

Jim Baker was interviewed (I believe while still in prison) and was asked when he stopped loving Jesus. He said in response, "Oh, I never stopped loving Jesus. I lost my fear of the Lord."

Are you are saying that even with all the embezzlement, lying, and adultery, he never lost salvation because he never stopped loving Jesus?

---

The whistling past the graveyard of some is quite shocking. They seem to believe things that dont align with numerous explicit Bible verse concepts such as:

1) many are called few are chosen

2) wide path and narrow path

3) works not required yet clearly we're commanded to follow the commandments, repent and be obedient. How can one do that without working / doing works? Impossible

4) but the one who endures to the end will be saved. Doesnt sound at all like OSAS

5) work out our salvation with fear and trembling. Wow imagine glossing over that one.

We are all saved by God's grace but he calls and requires more of us than just faith otherwise it negates hundreds of verses of the Bible and we know the Bible is true. He knows what were capable of and he has set the expectstions.

Any sin is choosing to do what we want versus what God wants.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Given that you're clearly and deeply steeped in marian idolatry (which I will bet that he knows) I don't think he would take your endorsement as a good sign. If I were him, it would make me think twice about what I just said.

---

chuckle. It's sad that you feel the need to use this same false, ad hominem attack. I pray for you.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

If mortal sin is not obeying God, then you're performing a mortal sin daily and continually. Because God's greatest commandment is to "love the Lord with all your heart, mind, and strength" and to "be perfect, as I am perfect". Have you given it your all for the Lord today? Are you perfect? If breaking God's greatest commandment is not as bad as any in your Catholic list of "mortal sins", then you're saying your list is greater than what God says is his first and greatest commandment.

---

It's also sad when you make these straw-man arguments. Frankly more people would take your statements more seriously, if you attempted to steel-man their points and then refuted them. No, your arguments are weak, strawmen examples of someone's beliefs.

But to address the ridiculous argument, God knows that's not possible. He doesn't ask us to do the impossible. All one has to do is avoid mortal sin after justification.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

If sin can void our salvation, then Paul is wrong when he clearly states that we receive the Holy Spirit the moment we truly believe, and it is a SEAL and GUARANTEE of our salvation. It also would make John wrong when he says that true believers can KNOW they are saved (morally or otherwise). It would make Jesus wrong to tell the thief on the cross and the sinful woman of Luke 7 that they were saved. He even told the woman to go in peace. What peace, if a "mortal sin" sends her to Hell? And why didn't Jesus tell that to her?

---

Thief he didn't have much time left for him to commit a mortal sin.

Sinful woman just because she's saved, doesn't mean that she won't fall again.

Luke uses the perfect tense of the word "saved" in the Greek (sesoken). It indicates a "past action with present effects or state resulting from a past action." It does NOT indicate a future or on-going state of being.

Below are two passages that St Paul demonstrates that it IS possible to lose salvation.

St Paul writes in Gal 5:4
You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.

Paul was writing to a community that were already believers in Christ saved - telling them that they HAVE lost salvation.

Paul also states in 1 Cor 9:27
but I punish my body and enslave it, so that after proclaiming to others I myself should not be disqualified.

Paul knew that mortal sin could disqualify him from the Kingdom.


The author of Hebrews also agrees that salvation can be lost -

Hebrews 10:26-29 -

If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?


It is VERY clear that one can turn away after justification.

Coke Bear said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Jim Baker brought 1000's to Christ and then "fell from glory" with embezzlement and adultery. Did Jim Baker lose his salvation before he repented? His salvation is fully dependent on whether or not he had true faith in Jesus or not. If he had faith, then he is saved, and stays saved unless he loses that faith, which I believe the Bible teaches can not happen to those who have true faith. Salvation is not dependent on our successes or failures in obeying God, it is dependent on the complete success of Jesus. As long as we have faith in Jesus, we are credited with his righteousness for as long as Jesus lives and for as long as he remains righteous (which I don't think anyone disagrees is forever). That's the gospel. The gospel isn't that we're saved once, but then we're left to being perfect again and if we mess up, we go to Hell. That isn't good news, that's absolutely frightening news.

---

Jim Baker was interviewed (I believe while still in prison) and was asked when he stopped loving Jesus. He said in response, "Oh, I never stopped loving Jesus. I lost my fear of the Lord."

Are you are saying that even with all the embezzlement, lying, and adultery, he never lost salvation because he never stopped loving Jesus?

---

Salvation is never by what someone "says" about their faith. That's James' whole point in James chapter 2. Salvation is based on whether he had true faith. Based on his actions, it wouldn't be wrong for someone to think he didn't, but only God/Jesus really knows, thereby he is the only one that can judge. If Jim Baker truly had faith, then he is saved, but because of his works he wouldn't get rewards.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Salvation is never by what someone "says" about their faith. That's James' whole point in James chapter 2. Salvation is based on whether he had true faith. Based on his actions, it wouldn't be wrong for someone to think he didn't, but only God/Jesus really knows, thereby he is the only one that can judge. If Jim Baker truly had faith, then he is saved, but because of his works he wouldn't get rewards.

---

How can someone be assured of salvation? He preached for years before he fell.

He said that he NEVER stopped loving Jesus. Does this mean that he was still saved even when he frauded and allegedly raped?

Coke Bear said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Given that you're clearly and deeply steeped in marian idolatry (which I will bet that he knows) I don't think he would take your endorsement as a good sign. If I were him, it would make me think twice about what I just said.

---

chuckle. It's sad that you feel the need to use this same false, ad hominem attack. I pray for you. It isn't an ad hominem attack. How you treat Mary is the definition of idolatry. If you're unable to discern this error, then your ability to discern biblical correctness is extremely suspect. This isn't a fallacy, this is perfectly valid logical reasoning.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

If mortal sin is not obeying God, then you're performing a mortal sin daily and continually. Because God's greatest commandment is to "love the Lord with all your heart, mind, and strength" and to "be perfect, as I am perfect". Have you given it your all for the Lord today? Are you perfect? If breaking God's greatest commandment is not as bad as any in your Catholic list of "mortal sins", then you're saying your list is greater than what God says is his first and greatest commandment.

---

It's also sad when you make these straw-man arguments. Frankly more people would take your statements more seriously, if you attempted to steel-man their points and then refuted them. No, your arguments are weak, strawmen examples of someone's beliefs. These aren't straw men. You don't know what a straw man argument is.

But to address the ridiculous argument, God knows that's not possible. He doesn't ask us to do the impossible. All one has to do is avoid mortal sin after justification. How can mortal sins be worse than breaking God's first and greatest commandment?

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

If sin can void our salvation, then Paul is wrong when he clearly states that we receive the Holy Spirit the moment we truly believe, and it is a SEAL and GUARANTEE of our salvation. It also would make John wrong when he says that true believers can KNOW they are saved (morally or otherwise). It would make Jesus wrong to tell the thief on the cross and the sinful woman of Luke 7 that they were saved. He even told the woman to go in peace. What peace, if a "mortal sin" sends her to Hell? And why didn't Jesus tell that to her?

---

Thief he didn't have much time left for him to commit a mortal sin. All it would take is a second.

Sinful woman just because she's saved, doesn't mean that she won't fall again. Then Jesus couldn't have said "Go in peace".

Luke uses the perfect tense of the word "saved" in the Greek (sesoken). It indicates a "past action with present effects or state resulting from a past action." It does NOT indicate a future or on-going state of being. It doesn't preclude it, either.

Below are two passages that St Paul demonstrates that it IS possible to lose salvation.

St Paul writes in Gal 5:4
You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. ---> Isn't this proof that your position is wrong, since you are trying to be justified by your works too?

Paul was writing to a community that were already believers in Christ saved - telling them that they HAVE lost salvation. --->This isn't necessarily true. Paul could be talking to a mixture of people - those with true faith and dependence on Jesus' righteousness to be imputed to them, and those who still are trying to justify themselves through the Law.

Paul also states in 1 Cor 9:27
but I punish my body and enslave it, so that after proclaiming to others I myself should not be disqualified. Paul knew that mortal sin could disqualify him from the Kingdom. ---> He's talking about the "prize" (rewards) two verses earlier, not salvation. You continually take verses out of context.


The author of Hebrews also agrees that salvation can be lost -

Hebrews 10:26-29 -

If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?


It is VERY clear that one can turn away after justification. ---> see the phrase "knowledge of the truth" in the first sentence there? Knowledge of, not faith in.

---

Responses in bold.

Coke Bear said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Salvation is never by what someone "says" about their faith. That's James' whole point in James chapter 2. Salvation is based on whether he had true faith. Based on his actions, it wouldn't be wrong for someone to think he didn't, but only God/Jesus really knows, thereby he is the only one that can judge. If Jim Baker truly had faith, then he is saved, but because of his works he wouldn't get rewards.

---

How can someone be assured of salvation? He preached for years before he fell.

He said that he NEVER stopped loving Jesus. Does this mean that he was still saved even when he frauded and allegedly raped?

---

He "said".

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

BUDOS said:

---

Of course, but it we know it won't change your mind.
I will respond in a bit. Currently I need to finish my Bible lesson for Sunday. Get back to you by tomorrow morning.

---

If your answer contradicts biblical teaching, then no one should change their mind.

And if you're contradicting the Bible, you shouldn't be teaching it.

---

James, at first glance, seems to contradict Paul's theology of justification. Paul affirms that believers are justified by faith and not by works. James says that justification is by works "and not by faith alone" (James 2:24). James refers to the same verse about Abraham's faith (James 2:23; Gen. 15:6) that Paul cites (Rom. 4:3; Gal. 3:6), but he seems to apply the verse in a radically different way, arguing that the works which followed Abraham's faith justified him, while Paul contends that Abraham was justified by his faith, and not by his works.

Some scholars claim that Paul and James contradict one another, but, in my opinion, such a view contradicts the inspiration of Scripture, and there is a plausible solution to what may be perceived by some as a dilemma. Both Jesus and Paul teach salvation by faith, and yet also emphasize the necessity of good works for salvation.

The good works necessary for salvation can't be the basis of one's salvation, since God is infinitely holy and demands perfection. Thus, the good works performed by believers aren't the basis of salvation but should be understood as the necessary evidence of salvation. Such works are the fruit and product of our new life in Jesus Christ. This is confirmed when James himself says in James 3:2 that "we all stumble in many ways." James means by this that we all sin in many ways. And he makes this comment immediately after insisting on justification by works (James 2:24)! Apparently, the works that justify are quite imperfect, and thus they could never be the basis of our justification since God demands perfection. Since we continue to stumble in a myriad of ways, our works function as the evidence and indication that we have a new life.

Jesus himself emphasizes this through many parables and sayings, and Paul argues explicitly against the inclusion of works in the basis of our salvation. James, though arguing that justification is by works "and not by faith alone," can be harmonized with the rest of the New Testament when it is realized that James still expects us to sinhe is combatting faith without works, not faith alone as the basis of salvation. Justification is by faith alone, as we put our trust in Christ alone, and thus our salvation is by grace alone and for the glory of God alone, and our good works demonstrate that we are trusting in Christ for our salvation.

On another subject, I'm sure you know by now that your attitude and manner in which you express yourself does not reflect the love you have for us. Additionally, it diminishes how many of us would otherwise learn from your extensive knowledge of the Bible. Of Christian unity and spiritual maturityPaul writes, "Speaking the truth in love, we will grow to become in every respect the mature body of him who is the head, that is, Christ" (Ephesians 4:15). Rather than be spiritually immature and easily deceived, we are to speak the truth to one another, with love, so that we can all grow in maturity. We are to train one another in truththe foundational gospel truths, truths about who God is and what He has called us to do, hard truths of correction, etc.and our motivation to do so is love. The "love" referred to in this verse is agape love, a self-sacrificial love that works for the benefit of the loved one. We speak truth in order to build up. Several verses later Paul writes, "Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen" (Ephesians 4:29). Our words should be beneficial to the hearers of those words. We should speak truth in love.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

It isn't an ad hominem attack. How you treat Mary is the definition of idolatry. If you're unable to discern this error, then your ability to discern biblical correctness is extremely suspect. This isn't a fallacy, this is perfectly valid logical reasoning.

---

Your logic is flawed and your bias precludes you from understanding. I will continue to blow off your ad hominin attacks.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

How can mortal sins be worse than breaking God's first and greatest commandment?

---

Breaking the first commandment, any commandment, IS mortal sin.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

All it would take is a second.

---

Correct. And he could have sinned on the cross and lost salvation. Jesus knew after this encounter that he wouldn't.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Then Jesus couldn't have said "Go in peace".

---

"Go in Peace", was a common Hebrew expression, indicative of a farewell and a blessing. Nothing in the text indicates that she couldn't sin again.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

you have fallen away from grace. ---> Isn't this proof that your position is wrong, since you are trying to be justified by your works too?

---

No, you once again fail to understand the difference between justification and salvation. No one mentions works here. The Galatians were already justified, but they lost their salvation because of what they did. They fell away from Grace. It is EXACTLY what Paul said.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

This isn't necessarily true. Paul could be talking to a mixture of people - those with true faith and dependence on Jesus' righteousness to be imputed to them, and those who still are trying to justify themselves through the Law.

---

There is NO indication of this here. Paul says they "Fell AWAY from Grace", meaning that they had Grace (justification) already.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

---> He's talking about the "prize" (rewards) two verses earlier, not salvation. You continually take verses out of context.

---

With all due respect, you are taking the passage out of context. The prize is SALVATION. Nothing in the entire chapter refers to different "rewards" in heaven. Every use of the word "prize" is singular, not plural, indicating that there is only one reward, which is salvation.

Yes, other passages in the NT refer to different rewards in heaven, but this is NOT one of them. You are reading your beliefs into this.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

see the phrase "knowledge of the truth" in the first sentence there? Knowledge of, not faith in.

---

Once again, you are reading your belief into this passage. The author, in this passage, is stating that these people were previously justified and the need for faithful perseverance.

Take an honest step back from your view and read these passages in this light. The prima facie reading here is VERY clear that Salvation is a process.

The OSAS position requires a great deal of eisegesis.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Coke Bear said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Salvation is never by what someone "says" about their faith. That's James' whole point in James chapter 2. Salvation is based on whether he had true faith. Based on his actions, it wouldn't be wrong for someone to think he didn't, but only God/Jesus really knows, thereby he is the only one that can judge. If Jim Baker truly had faith, then he is saved, but because of his works he wouldn't get rewards.

---

How can someone be assured of salvation? He preached for years before he fell.

He said that he NEVER stopped loving Jesus. Does this mean that he was still saved even when he frauded and allegedly raped?

---

He "said".

---

"If Jim Baker truly had faith, then he is saved, but because of his works he wouldn't get rewards." I don't disagree. However, if someone did these things and then prayed, asking and truly seeking God's forgiveness, repented and began a series of actions reflecting God's love and teaching, which came from his heart, would he not then be a possible candidate for heaven? (knowing that God is the only one that can judge).

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Coke Bear said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Salvation is never by what someone "says" about their faith. That's James' whole point in James chapter 2. Salvation is based on whether he had true faith. Based on his actions, it wouldn't be wrong for someone to think he didn't, but only God/Jesus really knows, thereby he is the only one that can judge. If Jim Baker truly had faith, then he is saved, but because of his works he wouldn't get rewards.

---

How can someone be assured of salvation? He preached for years before he fell.

He said that he NEVER stopped loving Jesus. Does this mean that he was still saved even when he frauded and allegedly raped?

---

He "said".

---

Are you now judging him that he wasn't originally saved?

How can someone know that he was saved? He said he was saved.

Why should I trust you, if you say that you are saved?

Coke Bear said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

It isn't an ad hominem attack. How you treat Mary is the definition of idolatry. If you're unable to discern this error, then your ability to discern biblical correctness is extremely suspect. This isn't a fallacy, this is perfectly valid logical reasoning.

---

Your logic is flawed and your bias precludes you from understanding. I will continue to blow off your ad hominin attacks.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

How can mortal sins be worse than breaking God's first and greatest commandment?

---

Breaking the first commandment, any commandment, IS mortal sin.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

All it would take is a second.

---

Correct. And he could have sinned on the cross and lost salvation. Jesus knew after this encounter that he wouldn't.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Then Jesus couldn't have said "Go in peace".

---

"Go in Peace", was a common Hebrew expression, indicative of a farewell and a blessing. Nothing in the text indicates that she couldn't sin again.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

you have fallen away from grace. ---> Isn't this proof that your position is wrong, since you are trying to be justified by your works too?

---

No, you once again fail to understand the difference between justification and salvation. No one mentions works here. The Galatians were already justified, but they lost their salvation because of what they did. They fell away from Grace. It is EXACTLY what Paul said.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

This isn't necessarily true. Paul could be talking to a mixture of people - those with true faith and dependence on Jesus' righteousness to be imputed to them, and those who still are trying to justify themselves through the Law.

---

There is NO indication of this here. Paul says they "Fell AWAY from Grace", meaning that they had Grace (justification) already.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

---> He's talking about the "prize" (rewards) two verses earlier, not salvation. You continually take verses out of context.

---

With all due respect, you are taking the passage out of context. The prize is SALVATION. Nothing in the entire chapter refers to different "rewards" in heaven. Every use of the word "prize" is singular, not plural, indicating that there is only one reward, which is salvation.

Yes, other passages in the NT refer to different rewards in heaven, but this is NOT one of them. You are reading your beliefs into this.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

see the phrase "knowledge of the truth" in the first sentence there? Knowledge of, not faith in.

---

Once again, you are reading your belief into this passage. The author, in this passage, is stating that these people were previously justified and the need for faithful perseverance.

Take an honest step back from your view and read these passages in this light. The prima facie reading here is VERY clear that Salvation is a process.

The OSAS position requires a great deal of eisegesis.

---

Coke Bear,
I agree with your points, especially as it relates to the context with which these are stated. Nicely done--well stated and admiringly in a mature tone.

BUDOS said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

BUDOS said:

---

Of course, but it we know it won't change your mind.
I will respond in a bit. Currently I need to finish my Bible lesson for Sunday. Get back to you by tomorrow morning.

---

If your answer contradicts biblical teaching, then no one should change their mind.

And if you're contradicting the Bible, you shouldn't be teaching it.

---

James, at first glance, seems to contradict Paul's theology of justification. Paul affirms that believers are justified by faith and not by works. James says that justification is by works "and not by faith alone" (James 2:24). James refers to the same verse about Abraham's faith (James 2:23; Gen. 15:6) that Paul cites (Rom. 4:3; Gal. 3:6), but he seems to apply the verse in a radically different way, arguing that the works which followed Abraham's faith justified him, while Paul contends that Abraham was justified by his faith, and not by his works.

Some scholars claim that Paul and James contradict one another, but, in my opinion, such a view contradicts the inspiration of Scripture, and there is a plausible solution to what may be perceived by some as a dilemma. Both Jesus and Paul teach salvation by faith, and yet also emphasize the necessity of good works for salvation.

The good works necessary for salvation can't be the basis of one's salvation, since God is infinitely holy and demands perfection. Thus, the good works performed by believers aren't the basis of salvation but should be understood as the necessary evidence of salvation. Such works are the fruit and product of our new life in Jesus Christ. This is confirmed when James himself says in James 3:2 that "we all stumble in many ways." James means by this that we all sin in many ways. And he makes this comment immediately after insisting on justification by works (James 2:24)! Apparently, the works that justify are quite imperfect, and thus they could never be the basis of our justification since God demands perfection. Since we continue to stumble in a myriad of ways, our works function as the evidence and indication that we have a new life.

Jesus himself emphasizes this through many parables and sayings, and Paul argues explicitly against the inclusion of works in the basis of our salvation. James, though arguing that justification is by works "and not by faith alone," can be harmonized with the rest of the New Testament when it is realized that James still expects us to sinhe is combatting faith without works, not faith alone as the basis of salvation. Justification is by faith alone, as we put our trust in Christ alone, and thus our salvation is by grace alone and for the glory of God alone, and our good works demonstrate that we are trusting in Christ for our salvation.

On another subject, I'm sure you know by now that your attitude and manner in which you express yourself does not reflect the love you have for us. Additionally, it diminishes how many of us would otherwise learn from your extensive knowledge of the Bible. Of Christian unity and spiritual maturityPaul writes, "Speaking the truth in love, we will grow to become in every respect the mature body of him who is the head, that is, Christ" (Ephesians 4:15). Rather than be spiritually immature and easily deceived, we are to speak the truth to one another, with love, so that we can all grow in maturity. We are to train one another in truththe foundational gospel truths, truths about who God is and what He has called us to do, hard truths of correction, etc.and our motivation to do so is love. The "love" referred to in this verse is agape love, a self-sacrificial love that works for the benefit of the loved one. We speak truth in order to build up. Several verses later Paul writes, "Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen" (Ephesians 4:29). Our words should be beneficial to the hearers of those words. We should speak truth in love.

---

I agree with almost everything you said in your first four paragraphs except I think Paul and Jamesl were talking about "justification" in two different ways in their respective verses - Paul in the sense of making one righteous before God, and James in the sense of vindicating one's faith before men.

However, this really didn't answer my questions. You said that if the Book of Life is opened and it doesn't show works, then we won't be saved (paraphrased). This is clearly suggesting that salvation is by faith PLUS works, and that we can't know if we're saved until the end. I asked you how this squares with Paul's teaching that we are saved by faith apart from works, and how the Holy Spirit is given to us immediately upon belief which is a SEAL and GUARANTEE of our salvation, and also how it squares with 1 John 5:13 where he clearly says that a believer can KNOW he is saved, even before any works are done and before the books are opened at the end. You sort of partially answered these questions by saying that salvation is by our faith and not by our works, but rather that our works are evidence of our faith - which I think is exactly right. But your answer seems to contradict your own position. If works are merely evidence of a saving faith, then salvation happened before any works. Therefore, we are saved (and can KNOW we are saved) even before the books are opened at the end to judge our works - this position would be more in line with 1 John 5:13 and Paul's teaching. Your initial position does not, seemingly. If you feel it does, then explain.

Finally, regarding your last paragraph: to be really honest, I don't care how you or anyone else perceives my comments. All I'm doing is stating what I believe to be true and stating it bluntly, clearly, and as effectively as I can. We don't know each other. None of us for the most part in these forums knows each other. We are just words in a digital forum. We're just reading each other's facts, ideas, and arguments and debating them. If we were interacting at a personal level, then it would be different, and the format of my presentation would tailor to that. I highly disagree with your perception as to the effectiveness of my expression - because I say it the way I do, you guys are reading every word and interacting with them. Niceties do nothing to make people confront their own beliefs and the reasons they believe them. The lashing out you see from people is a sign of that. Why do you think John the Baptist, the disciples, Stephen in Acts, and of course Jesus, were all killed? Because what they were saying really hit people to where they couldn't take it. I know you've been readng the nastiness I get from people. Yet, curiously, you never mention of any of that to them like you do to me. So forgive me if I don't think you're criticizing me in good faith.

BUDOS said:

---

Coke Bear said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

It isn't an ad hominem attack. How you treat Mary is the definition of idolatry. If you're unable to discern this error, then your ability to discern biblical correctness is extremely suspect. This isn't a fallacy, this is perfectly valid logical reasoning.

---

Your logic is flawed and your bias precludes you from understanding. I will continue to blow off your ad hominin attacks.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

How can mortal sins be worse than breaking God's first and greatest commandment?

---

Breaking the first commandment, any commandment, IS mortal sin.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

All it would take is a second.

---

Correct. And he could have sinned on the cross and lost salvation. Jesus knew after this encounter that he wouldn't.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Then Jesus couldn't have said "Go in peace".

---

"Go in Peace", was a common Hebrew expression, indicative of a farewell and a blessing. Nothing in the text indicates that she couldn't sin again.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

you have fallen away from grace. ---> Isn't this proof that your position is wrong, since you are trying to be justified by your works too?

---

No, you once again fail to understand the difference between justification and salvation. No one mentions works here. The Galatians were already justified, but they lost their salvation because of what they did. They fell away from Grace. It is EXACTLY what Paul said.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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This isn't necessarily true. Paul could be talking to a mixture of people - those with true faith and dependence on Jesus' righteousness to be imputed to them, and those who still are trying to justify themselves through the Law.

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There is NO indication of this here. Paul says they "Fell AWAY from Grace", meaning that they had Grace (justification) already.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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---> He's talking about the "prize" (rewards) two verses earlier, not salvation. You continually take verses out of context.

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With all due respect, you are taking the passage out of context. The prize is SALVATION. Nothing in the entire chapter refers to different "rewards" in heaven. Every use of the word "prize" is singular, not plural, indicating that there is only one reward, which is salvation.

Yes, other passages in the NT refer to different rewards in heaven, but this is NOT one of them. You are reading your beliefs into this.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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see the phrase "knowledge of the truth" in the first sentence there? Knowledge of, not faith in.

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Once again, you are reading your belief into this passage. The author, in this passage, is stating that these people were previously justified and the need for faithful perseverance.

Take an honest step back from your view and read these passages in this light. The prima facie reading here is VERY clear that Salvation is a process.

The OSAS position requires a great deal of eisegesis.

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Coke Bear,
I agree with your points, especially as it relates to the context with which these are stated. Nicely done--well stated and admiringly in a mature tone.

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His tone is no different than mine. Obviously your perception of one's tone is dependent on your level of agreement with what they are saying.

Coke Bear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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It isn't an ad hominem attack. How you treat Mary is the definition of idolatry. If you're unable to discern this error, then your ability to discern biblical correctness is extremely suspect. This isn't a fallacy, this is perfectly valid logical reasoning.

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Your logic is flawed and your bias precludes you from understanding. I will continue to blow off your ad hominin attacks.

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You kiss, bow to, and pray to statues and pictures of Mary. You sing hymns to her in church. You pray to her in church. You hold multiple festivals for her throughout the year for her. In your prayers, you mention her name more than you do God's. And you LOVE and ADORE prayers that call Mary "sovereign", "peacemaker between sinners and God", "our hope and refuge", "ruler of my house", "god of this world", "Mediatrix", and you "place your salvation in Mary's hands".

^^^ These are unmistakingly, blatantly, and egregiously blasphemous, heretical, and idolatrous. Any real Christian would easily see that. And absolutely NONE of this is Biblical. They are the result of a slow process of deification of Mary that happened because Roman Catholicism compromised with pagan Rome, abandoned sola scriptura, and allowed fallible man-made tradition to have the same authority as Scripture.

BUDOS said:

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Coke Bear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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It isn't an ad hominem attack. How you treat Mary is the definition of idolatry. If you're unable to discern this error, then your ability to discern biblical correctness is extremely suspect. This isn't a fallacy, this is perfectly valid logical reasoning.

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Your logic is flawed and your bias precludes you from understanding. I will continue to blow off your ad hominin attacks.

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Coke Bear,
I agree with your points, especially as it relates to the context with which these are stated. Nicely done--well stated and admiringly in a mature tone.

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You AGREE that what he does to Mary isn't idolatry? So if you read my comment:

"You kiss, bow to, and pray to statues and pictures of Mary. You sing hymns to her in church. You pray to her in church. You hold multiple festivals for her throughout the year for her. In your prayers, you mention her name more than you do God's. And you LOVE and ADORE prayers that call Mary "sovereign", "peacemaker between sinners and God", "our hope and refuge", "ruler of my house", "god of this world", "Mediatrix", and you "place your salvation in Mary's hands".

Are you saying that none of this is idolatry? Were I to tell your church where you teach the Bible that you don't believe it is, what would they think? Of course, that would depend on what church you go to, which might be a problem in itself if they too are okay with it.

BUDOS said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Coke Bear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Salvation is never by what someone "says" about their faith. That's James' whole point in James chapter 2. Salvation is based on whether he had true faith. Based on his actions, it wouldn't be wrong for someone to think he didn't, but only God/Jesus really knows, thereby he is the only one that can judge. If Jim Baker truly had faith, then he is saved, but because of his works he wouldn't get rewards.

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How can someone be assured of salvation? He preached for years before he fell.

He said that he NEVER stopped loving Jesus. Does this mean that he was still saved even when he frauded and allegedly raped?

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He "said".

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"If Jim Baker truly had faith, then he is saved, but because of his works he wouldn't get rewards." I don't disagree. However, if someone did these things and then prayed, asking and truly seeking God's forgiveness, repented and began a series of actions reflecting God's love and teaching, which came from his heart, would he not then be a possible candidate for heaven? (knowing that God is the only one that can judge).

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I'm not sure what you're asking. I'm not saying that he wouldn't go to heaven. And he wouldn't be just a "possible candidate" - the Bible teaches that he would, period, if he has true faith in Jesus.

Coke Bear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Coke Bear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Salvation is never by what someone "says" about their faith. That's James' whole point in James chapter 2. Salvation is based on whether he had true faith. Based on his actions, it wouldn't be wrong for someone to think he didn't, but only God/Jesus really knows, thereby he is the only one that can judge. If Jim Baker truly had faith, then he is saved, but because of his works he wouldn't get rewards.

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How can someone be assured of salvation? He preached for years before he fell.

He said that he NEVER stopped loving Jesus. Does this mean that he was still saved even when he frauded and allegedly raped?

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He "said".

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Are you now judging him that he wasn't originally saved? No, YOU are judging him that he's NOT. I'm saying you can't go by what he "says", but by what he truly believes and has faith in, which only God can know.

How can someone know that he was saved? He said he was saved. Once again, he "said". I'll keep repeating this until you finally get it.

Why should I trust you, if you say that you are saved? Who's asking you to? Why are you even worrying yourself over whether you can trust one's stated belief in their salvation? Is this a serious question?

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Quote:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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How can mortal sins be worse than breaking God's first and greatest commandment?

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Breaking the first commandment, any commandment, IS mortal sin.

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Then you are constantly and continually breaking it every day. You will never be righteous this way, and you can never be saved in the Roman Catholic system.

Coke Bear said:

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Correct. And he could have sinned on the cross and lost salvation. Jesus knew after this encounter that he wouldn't. OR, salvation is by the thief's faith alone, and never could be lost even if he made a mistake and sinned before he died. That's more consistent with what the Bible overall teaches. That is "good news". The Roman Catholic "gospel" that a sin can throw you into Hell even after you've been saved is terrible, frightening news. Not only that, it cheapens Jesus sacrifice, saying that it was insufficient.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Then Jesus couldn't have said "Go in peace".

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"Go in Peace", was a common Hebrew expression, indicative of a farewell and a blessing. Nothing in the text indicates that she couldn't sin again. Nothing in the text says that her sinning again would cause her to lose her salvation, either. You would think that Jesus wouldn't just say "Go in peace" if that were the case. There isn't peace in that. You'd think that it would behoove him to tell that her salvation he just gave her was so tenuous.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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017

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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see the phrase "knowledge of the truth" in the first sentence there? Knowledge of, not faith in.

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Once again, you are reading your belief into this passage. The author, in this passage, is stating that these people were previously justified and the need for faithful perseverance. ----> where does he state that? I'm not reading into anything, I'm reading the exact words - "knowledge of" is not faith. You're just not being careful with what's really being said. YOU'RE reading your belief into the passage, because you're disregarding the words "knowledge of", while I'm not.

Take an honest step back from your view and read these passages in this light. The prima facie reading here is VERY clear that Salvation is a process. ---> that contradicts Paul's clear teaching that salvation happens immediately upon belief when the Holy Spirit is given. It contradicts the salvation of the house of Cornelius. It also contradicts instances where Jesus himself saved people. These were instant, not a process.

The OSAS position requires a great deal of eisegesis. ---> it requires rightly understanding the Gospel message coming from the plain, honest reading of the Bible.

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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BUDOS said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Coke Bear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Salvation is never by what someone "says" about their faith. That's James' whole point in James chapter 2. Salvation is based on whether he had true faith. Based on his actions, it wouldn't be wrong for someone to think he didn't, but only God/Jesus really knows, thereby he is the only one that can judge. If Jim Baker truly had faith, then he is saved, but because of his works he wouldn't get rewards.

---

How can someone be assured of salvation? He preached for years before he fell.

He said that he NEVER stopped loving Jesus. Does this mean that he was still saved even when he frauded and allegedly raped?

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He "said".

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"If Jim Baker truly had faith, then he is saved, but because of his works he wouldn't get rewards." I don't disagree. However, if someone did these things and then prayed, asking and truly seeking God's forgiveness, repented and began a series of actions reflecting God's love and teaching, which came from his heart, would he not then be a possible candidate for heaven? (knowing that God is the only one that can judge).

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I'm not sure what you're asking. I'm not saying that he wouldn't go to heaven. And he wouldn't be just a "possible candidate" - the Bible teaches that he would, period, if he has true faith in Jesus.

*** do you see how your view that one is only a "candidate" for heaven if they believe shows that you believe their final status is contingent upon a review of their works at the end, which contradicts the biblical teaching that a believer can have full assurance that they are saved just by their belief alone, like the Bible teaches?

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Well, just because someone thinks something is scary has no impact on its validity. Theres no escape. The truth will be revealed to all

Careful who you follow

Coke Bear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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you have fallen away from grace. ---> Isn't this proof that your position is wrong, since you are trying to be justified by your works too?

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No, you once again fail to understand the difference between justification and salvation.

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How am I demonstrating this misunderstanding? Are you saying that justification is by faith in Jesus alone..... but salvation is NOT? That salvation requires not just faith but also works?

Quote:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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---> He's talking about the "prize" (rewards) two verses earlier, not salvation. You continually take verses out of context.

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With all due respect, you are taking the passage out of context. The prize is SALVATION. Nothing in the entire chapter refers to different "rewards" in heaven. Every use of the word "prize" is singular, not plural, indicating that there is only one reward, which is salvation.

Yes, other passages in the NT refer to different rewards in heaven, but this is NOT one of them. You are reading your beliefs into this.

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He can't be talking about salvation. He clearly teaches in his other letters that salvation is a "gift", not a reward for meritorious works, which is what a "prize" is. ***If "prize" means salvation, then Paul is contradicting himself in this very letter that he's writing to the Galatians. The whole purpose of the letter was to reaffirm that salvation is NOT by any works of the Law (circumcision) but rather only by grace through faith in Jesus. So HOW can he all of the sudden turn completely around and tell the Galatians to run hard for the "prize" as if in a competition, which would then be saying that their salvation is dependent on their performance/works ?? This is yet again an instance where you have to make Paul contradict himself in order for your position to be true.

Fre3dombear said:

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Well, just because someone thinks something is scary has no impact on its validity. Theres no escape. The truth will be revealed to all

Careful who you follow

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You know, that would apply to you just as much as anyone else, Fre3dombeaar.

Oldbear83 said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Well, just because someone thinks something is scary has no impact on its validity. Theres no escape. The truth will be revealed to all

Careful who you follow

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You know, that would apply to you just as much as anyone else, Fre3dombeaar.

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It could apply to amyone, no? Yourself included. Agreed.

Fre3dombear said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Well, just because someone thinks something is scary has no impact on its validity. Theres no escape. The truth will be revealed to all

Careful who you follow

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You know, that would apply to you just as much as anyone else, Fre3dombeaar.

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It could apply to amyone, no? Yourself included. Agreed.

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Agreed, but a statement which equally applies to everyone becomes meaningless, empty words.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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BUDOS said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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BUDOS said:

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Of course, but it we know it won't change your mind.
I will respond in a bit. Currently I need to finish my Bible lesson for Sunday. Get back to you by tomorrow morning.

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If your answer contradicts biblical teaching, then no one should change their mind.

And if you're contradicting the Bible, you shouldn't be teaching it.

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James, at first glance, seems to contradict Paul's theology of justification. Paul affirms that believers are justified by faith and not by works. James says that justification is by works "and not by faith alone" (James 2:24). James refers to the same verse about Abraham's faith (James 2:23; Gen. 15:6) that Paul cites (Rom. 4:3; Gal. 3:6), but he seems to apply the verse in a radically different way, arguing that the works which followed Abraham's faith justified him, while Paul contends that Abraham was justified by his faith, and not by his works.

Some scholars claim that Paul and James contradict one another, but, in my opinion, such a view contradicts the inspiration of Scripture, and there is a plausible solution to what may be perceived by some as a dilemma. Both Jesus and Paul teach salvation by faith, and yet also emphasize the necessity of good works for salvation.

The good works necessary for salvation can't be the basis of one's salvation, since God is infinitely holy and demands perfection. Thus, the good works performed by believers aren't the basis of salvation but should be understood as the necessary evidence of salvation. Such works are the fruit and product of our new life in Jesus Christ. This is confirmed when James himself says in James 3:2 that "we all stumble in many ways." James means by this that we all sin in many ways. And he makes this comment immediately after insisting on justification by works (James 2:24)! Apparently, the works that justify are quite imperfect, and thus they could never be the basis of our justification since God demands perfection. Since we continue to stumble in a myriad of ways, our works function as the evidence and indication that we have a new life.

Jesus himself emphasizes this through many parables and sayings, and Paul argues explicitly against the inclusion of works in the basis of our salvation. James, though arguing that justification is by works "and not by faith alone," can be harmonized with the rest of the New Testament when it is realized that James still expects us to sinhe is combatting faith without works, not faith alone as the basis of salvation. Justification is by faith alone, as we put our trust in Christ alone, and thus our salvation is by grace alone and for the glory of God alone, and our good works demonstrate that we are trusting in Christ for our salvation.

On another subject, I'm sure you know by now that your attitude and manner in which you express yourself does not reflect the love you have for us. Additionally, it diminishes how many of us would otherwise learn from your extensive knowledge of the Bible. Of Christian unity and spiritual maturityPaul writes, "Speaking the truth in love, we will grow to become in every respect the mature body of him who is the head, that is, Christ" (Ephesians 4:15). Rather than be spiritually immature and easily deceived, we are to speak the truth to one another, with love, so that we can all grow in maturity. We are to train one another in truththe foundational gospel truths, truths about who God is and what He has called us to do, hard truths of correction, etc.and our motivation to do so is love. The "love" referred to in this verse is agape love, a self-sacrificial love that works for the benefit of the loved one. We speak truth in order to build up. Several verses later Paul writes, "Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen" (Ephesians 4:29). Our words should be beneficial to the hearers of those words. We should speak truth in love.

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I agree with almost everything you said in your first four paragraphs except I think Paul and Jamesl were talking about "justification" in two different ways in their respective verses - Paul in the sense of making one righteous before God, and James in the sense of vindicating one's faith before men.

However, this really didn't answer my questions. You said that if the Book of Life is opened and it doesn't show works, then we won't be saved (paraphrased). This is clearly suggesting that salvation is by faith PLUS works, and that we can't know if we're saved until the end. I asked you how this squares with Paul's teaching that we are saved by faith apart from works, and how the Holy Spirit is given to us immediately upon belief which is a SEAL and GUARANTEE of our salvation, and also how it squares with 1 John 5:13 where he clearly says that a believer can KNOW he is saved, even before any works are done and before the books are opened at the end. You sort of partially answered these questions by saying that salvation is by our faith and not by our works, but rather that our works are evidence of our faith - which I think is exactly right. But your answer seems to contradict your own position. If works are merely evidence of a saving faith, then salvation happened before any works. Therefore, we are saved (and can KNOW we are saved) even before the books are opened at the end to judge our works - this position would be more in line with 1 John 5:13 and Paul's teaching. Your initial position does not, seemingly. If you feel it does, then explain.

Finally, regarding your last paragraph: to be really honest, I don't care how you or anyone else perceives my comments. All I'm doing is stating what I believe to be true and stating it bluntly, clearly, and as effectively as I can. We don't know each other. None of us for the most part in these forums knows each other. We are just words in a digital forum. We're just reading each other's facts, ideas, and arguments and debating them. If we were interacting at a personal level, then it would be different, and the format of my presentation would tailor to that. I highly disagree with your perception as to the effectiveness of my expression - because I say it the way I do, you guys are reading every word and interacting with them. Niceties do nothing to make people confront their own beliefs and the reasons they believe them. The lashing out you see from people is a sign of that. Why do you think John the Baptist, the disciples, Stephen in Acts, and of course Jesus, were all killed? Because what they were saying really hit people to where they couldn't take it. I know you've been readng the nastiness I get from people. Yet, curiously, you never mention of any of that to them like you do to me. So forgive me if I don't think you're criticizing me in good faith.

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I'm encouraged that you agree with much of the first four paragraphs. As for your next to last paragraph, I don't have a major argument with your interpretation with the scriptures, as I think I understand why you are interpreting it the way you are. A person is saved by grace, believing the Jesus Christ is who He says He is and that He died for us and to give us the opportunity to go to Heaven for eternity. When the Book is opened, if we indeed believe in Christ, our actions and motives will have demonstrated that we are Christians. Among the many scriptures indicating this is one where Jesus states that if you live Him you will follow His commands. Many examples of expressing that love for Him are in the Gospels. Neither am I saying that it's a matter of math where if a person has more "good" acts than "bad" acts is what discerns his final destination. That is for the Righteous Judge to decide. I am saying that if Joe becomes a believer in 1998, but his actions and his heart are not expressive of that love, then he may well qualify for a transfer.

Oldbear83 said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Well, just because someone thinks something is scary has no impact on its validity. Theres no escape. The truth will be revealed to all

Careful who you follow

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You know, that would apply to you just as much as anyone else, Fre3dombeaar.

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It could apply to amyone, no? Yourself included. Agreed.

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Agreed, but a statement which equally applies to everyone becomes meaningless, empty words.

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Its not empty. Its actually the most important statement. Ones soul could be in the balance depending. For me, this is one of those such statements or beliefs. For others, they are clear it is not.

At this point on that topic, the cases have been made and now everyone can be careful who they follow.

Some will shrug and whistle past the graveyard. For others they will work so hard every day fighting every temptation of this temporal life, guarding every decision and moment and failing often until hopefully they finish the race strong (vs say the jimmy swaggart discussion above etc etc) as if their soul depends onnit as some here believe their soul depends daily on those choices.

One is osas and on the other side is the verses i posted in my 4 or 5 points above.

BUDOS said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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BUDOS said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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BUDOS said:

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Of course, but it we know it won't change your mind.
I will respond in a bit. Currently I need to finish my Bible lesson for Sunday. Get back to you by tomorrow morning.

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If your answer contradicts biblical teaching, then no one should change their mind.

And if you're contradicting the Bible, you shouldn't be teaching it.

---

James, at first glance, seems to contradict Paul's theology of justification. Paul affirms that believers are justified by faith and not by works. James says that justification is by works "and not by faith alone" (James 2:24). James refers to the same verse about Abraham's faith (James 2:23; Gen. 15:6) that Paul cites (Rom. 4:3; Gal. 3:6), but he seems to apply the verse in a radically different way, arguing that the works which followed Abraham's faith justified him, while Paul contends that Abraham was justified by his faith, and not by his works.

Some scholars claim that Paul and James contradict one another, but, in my opinion, such a view contradicts the inspiration of Scripture, and there is a plausible solution to what may be perceived by some as a dilemma. Both Jesus and Paul teach salvation by faith, and yet also emphasize the necessity of good works for salvation.

The good works necessary for salvation can't be the basis of one's salvation, since God is infinitely holy and demands perfection. Thus, the good works performed by believers aren't the basis of salvation but should be understood as the necessary evidence of salvation. Such works are the fruit and product of our new life in Jesus Christ. This is confirmed when James himself says in James 3:2 that "we all stumble in many ways." James means by this that we all sin in many ways. And he makes this comment immediately after insisting on justification by works (James 2:24)! Apparently, the works that justify are quite imperfect, and thus they could never be the basis of our justification since God demands perfection. Since we continue to stumble in a myriad of ways, our works function as the evidence and indication that we have a new life.

Jesus himself emphasizes this through many parables and sayings, and Paul argues explicitly against the inclusion of works in the basis of our salvation. James, though arguing that justification is by works "and not by faith alone," can be harmonized with the rest of the New Testament when it is realized that James still expects us to sinhe is combatting faith without works, not faith alone as the basis of salvation. Justification is by faith alone, as we put our trust in Christ alone, and thus our salvation is by grace alone and for the glory of God alone, and our good works demonstrate that we are trusting in Christ for our salvation.

On another subject, I'm sure you know by now that your attitude and manner in which you express yourself does not reflect the love you have for us. Additionally, it diminishes how many of us would otherwise learn from your extensive knowledge of the Bible. Of Christian unity and spiritual maturityPaul writes, "Speaking the truth in love, we will grow to become in every respect the mature body of him who is the head, that is, Christ" (Ephesians 4:15). Rather than be spiritually immature and easily deceived, we are to speak the truth to one another, with love, so that we can all grow in maturity. We are to train one another in truththe foundational gospel truths, truths about who God is and what He has called us to do, hard truths of correction, etc.and our motivation to do so is love. The "love" referred to in this verse is agape love, a self-sacrificial love that works for the benefit of the loved one. We speak truth in order to build up. Several verses later Paul writes, "Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen" (Ephesians 4:29). Our words should be beneficial to the hearers of those words. We should speak truth in love.

---

I agree with almost everything you said in your first four paragraphs except I think Paul and Jamesl were talking about "justification" in two different ways in their respective verses - Paul in the sense of making one righteous before God, and James in the sense of vindicating one's faith before men.

However, this really didn't answer my questions. You said that if the Book of Life is opened and it doesn't show works, then we won't be saved (paraphrased). This is clearly suggesting that salvation is by faith PLUS works, and that we can't know if we're saved until the end. I asked you how this squares with Paul's teaching that we are saved by faith apart from works, and how the Holy Spirit is given to us immediately upon belief which is a SEAL and GUARANTEE of our salvation, and also how it squares with 1 John 5:13 where he clearly says that a believer can KNOW he is saved, even before any works are done and before the books are opened at the end. You sort of partially answered these questions by saying that salvation is by our faith and not by our works, but rather that our works are evidence of our faith - which I think is exactly right. But your answer seems to contradict your own position. If works are merely evidence of a saving faith, then salvation happened before any works. Therefore, we are saved (and can KNOW we are saved) even before the books are opened at the end to judge our works - this position would be more in line with 1 John 5:13 and Paul's teaching. Your initial position does not, seemingly. If you feel it does, then explain.

Finally, regarding your last paragraph: to be really honest, I don't care how you or anyone else perceives my comments. All I'm doing is stating what I believe to be true and stating it bluntly, clearly, and as effectively as I can. We don't know each other. None of us for the most part in these forums knows each other. We are just words in a digital forum. We're just reading each other's facts, ideas, and arguments and debating them. If we were interacting at a personal level, then it would be different, and the format of my presentation would tailor to that. I highly disagree with your perception as to the effectiveness of my expression - because I say it the way I do, you guys are reading every word and interacting with them. Niceties do nothing to make people confront their own beliefs and the reasons they believe them. The lashing out you see from people is a sign of that. Why do you think John the Baptist, the disciples, Stephen in Acts, and of course Jesus, were all killed? Because what they were saying really hit people to where they couldn't take it. I know you've been readng the nastiness I get from people. Yet, curiously, you never mention of any of that to them like you do to me. So forgive me if I don't think you're criticizing me in good faith.

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I'm encouraged that you agree with much of the first four paragraphs. As for your next to last paragraph, I don't have a major argument with your interpretation with the scriptures, as I think I understand why you are interpreting it the way you are. A person is saved by grace, believing the Jesus Christ is who He says He is and that He died for us and to give us the opportunity to go to Heaven for eternity. When the Book is opened, if we indeed believe in Christ, our actions and motives will have demonstrated that we are Christians. Among the many scriptures indicating this is one where Jesus states that if you live Him you will follow His commands. Many examples of expressing that love for Him are in the Gospels. Neither am I saying that it's a matter of math where if a person has more "good" acts than "bad" acts is what discerns his final destination. That is for the Righteous Judge to decide. I am saying that if Joe becomes a believer in 1998, but his actions and his heart are not expressive of that love, then he may well qualify for a transfer.

---

The issue with your position is that you believe that a person's faith in Jesus only makes that person a "candidate" for salvation. This strongly implies that our faith is not enough, that our works will be also be determinative. You believe this final determination will occur when the Book of Life is opened, where we will be "judged" whether our faith produced works or not, to see if we are saved or not.

This is not what the Bible says about salvation. The Bible teaches that salvation happens the moment we have true faith in Jesus. It's apart from any work of obedience that we do. It is a gift of grace from God, received by faith. Paul was adamant that the moment you add works to grace, it is no longer grace, and you've corrupted the true gospel. You need to re-read Galatians, where Paul is pretty much lambasting the church for adding obedience to the Law (circumcision) as a requirement in addition to faith in order to be saved. Paul, in the strongest terms in all his letters, says that those who add works to the gospel are accursed. And he says it TWICE. Obviously, the Bible is saying it's a very, very bad thing. It's highly ironic that those here who are adding works to the gospel are quoting Galatians to me. Do they realize that what they're doing is the exact same thing as those who Paul accursed?! He calls that a false gospel.

When a person comes to true faith in Jesus, his works aren't going to be judged in the end to determine if he is saved or not. Jesus specifically says they don't: "Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life." (John 5:24).

For those with true faith in Jesus, their works will be judged, yes, but to determine rewards, NOT to determine their salvation, like Paul illustrates in I Corinthians 3:12-15: "If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, his workmanship will be evident, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will prove the quality of each man's work. If what he has built survives, he will receive a reward. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss. He himself will be saved, but only as if through the flames."

Fre3dombear said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Well, just because someone thinks something is scary has no impact on its validity. Theres no escape. The truth will be revealed to all

Careful who you follow

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You know, that would apply to you just as much as anyone else, Fre3dombeaar.

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It could apply to amyone, no? Yourself included. Agreed.

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Agreed, but a statement which equally applies to everyone becomes meaningless, empty words.

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Its not empty. Its actually the most important statement. Ones soul could be in the balance depending. For me, this is one of those such statements or beliefs. For others, they are clear it is not.

At this point on that topic, the cases have been made and now everyone can be careful who they follow.

Some will shrug and whistle past the graveyard. For others they will work so hard every day fighting every temptation of this temporal life, guarding every decision and moment and failing often until hopefully they finish the race strong (vs say the jimmy swaggart discussion above etc etc) as if their soul depends onnit as some here believe their soul depends daily on those choices.

One is osas and on the other side is the verses i posted in my 4 or 5 points above.

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Your pride blinds you.

There is your danger.

Fre3dombear said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Well, just because someone thinks something is scary has no impact on its validity. Theres no escape. The truth will be revealed to all

Careful who you follow

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You know, that would apply to you just as much as anyone else, Fre3dombeaar.

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It could apply to amyone, no? Yourself included. Agreed.

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Agreed, but a statement which equally applies to everyone becomes meaningless, empty words.

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Its not empty. Its actually the most important statement. Ones soul could be in the balance depending. For me, this is one of those such statements or beliefs. For others, they are clear it is not.

At this point on that topic, the cases have been made and now everyone can be careful who they follow.

Some will shrug and whistle past the graveyard. For others they will work so hard every day fighting every temptation of this temporal life, guarding every decision and moment and failing often until hopefully they finish the race strong (vs say the jimmy swaggart discussion above etc etc) as if their soul depends onnit as some here believe their soul depends daily on those choices.

One is osas and on the other side is the verses i posted in my 4 or 5 points above.

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"Once saved always saved" isn't the doctrine that's at odds with your position - the true gospel of the Bible is. Your position adds works to the biblical gospel of grace. Paul clearly calls this a false gospel, and says those that teach it are accursed.

Oldbear83 said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Well, just because someone thinks something is scary has no impact on its validity. Theres no escape. The truth will be revealed to all

Careful who you follow

---

You know, that would apply to you just as much as anyone else, Fre3dombeaar.

---

It could apply to amyone, no? Yourself included. Agreed.

---

Agreed, but a statement which equally applies to everyone becomes meaningless, empty words.

---

Its not empty. Its actually the most important statement. Ones soul could be in the balance depending. For me, this is one of those such statements or beliefs. For others, they are clear it is not.

At this point on that topic, the cases have been made and now everyone can be careful who they follow.

Some will shrug and whistle past the graveyard. For others they will work so hard every day fighting every temptation of this temporal life, guarding every decision and moment and failing often until hopefully they finish the race strong (vs say the jimmy swaggart discussion above etc etc) as if their soul depends onnit as some here believe their soul depends daily on those choices.

One is osas and on the other side is the verses i posted in my 4 or 5 points above.

---

Your pride blinds you.

There is your danger.

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No pride. Only humbleness. Only service to my Lord in all He calls and commands me to do daily to the best of my ability as a lowly humble sinner.

No idea why that would irk you but that's your own journey of introspection to work through

Do not be mislead, faith that works through love is what Paul said.

Nowhere is faith alone anywhere stated on scripture. One falls prey at their own peril

Fre3dombear said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Well, just because someone thinks something is scary has no impact on its validity. Theres no escape. The truth will be revealed to all

Careful who you follow

---

You know, that would apply to you just as much as anyone else, Fre3dombeaar.

---

It could apply to amyone, no? Yourself included. Agreed.

---

Agreed, but a statement which equally applies to everyone becomes meaningless, empty words.

---

Its not empty. Its actually the most important statement. Ones soul could be in the balance depending. For me, this is one of those such statements or beliefs. For others, they are clear it is not.

At this point on that topic, the cases have been made and now everyone can be careful who they follow.

Some will shrug and whistle past the graveyard. For others they will work so hard every day fighting every temptation of this temporal life, guarding every decision and moment and failing often until hopefully they finish the race strong (vs say the jimmy swaggart discussion above etc etc) as if their soul depends onnit as some here believe their soul depends daily on those choices.

One is osas and on the other side is the verses i posted in my 4 or 5 points above.

---

Your pride blinds you.

There is your danger.

---

No pride. Only humbleness. Only service to my Lord in all He calls and commands me to do daily to the best of my ability as a lowly humble sinner.

No idea why that would irk you but that's your own journey of introspection to work through

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You have the same sin as BTD. You assume you have it all figured out, and anyone who seems to have a different understanding must be in danger of hell.

There are dozens of books in the Bible for a reason, hundreds of personal outcomes for a reason.

Oldbear83 said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Well, just because someone thinks something is scary has no impact on its validity. Theres no escape. The truth will be revealed to all

Careful who you follow

---

You know, that would apply to you just as much as anyone else, Fre3dombeaar.

---

It could apply to amyone, no? Yourself included. Agreed.

---

Agreed, but a statement which equally applies to everyone becomes meaningless, empty words.

---

Its not empty. Its actually the most important statement. Ones soul could be in the balance depending. For me, this is one of those such statements or beliefs. For others, they are clear it is not.

At this point on that topic, the cases have been made and now everyone can be careful who they follow.

Some will shrug and whistle past the graveyard. For others they will work so hard every day fighting every temptation of this temporal life, guarding every decision and moment and failing often until hopefully they finish the race strong (vs say the jimmy swaggart discussion above etc etc) as if their soul depends onnit as some here believe their soul depends daily on those choices.

One is osas and on the other side is the verses i posted in my 4 or 5 points above.

---

Your pride blinds you.

There is your danger.

---

No pride. Only humbleness. Only service to my Lord in all He calls and commands me to do daily to the best of my ability as a lowly humble sinner.

No idea why that would irk you but that's your own journey of introspection to work through

---

You have the same sin as BTD. You assume you have it all figured out, and anyone who seems to have a different understanding must be in danger of hell.

There are dozens of books in the Bible for a reason, hundreds of personal outcomes for a reason.

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Completely incorrect. Ive only made a plea for a perspective to consider and to consider what the implications may be. Ive condemned No one. That's up to God. Completely different than him / her.

He / she ans maybe you are arguing that Catholics do too much and way more than is required.

Putting aside absurd comments of idolatry etc.

When ive asked do you have to follow the commandments or just have faith aline? Every proteetant has said yes and acknowledges that is a work. No one has disagreed yet (although they still can of course). When ive said do you have to believe? Theyve said yes.

Ive said each of those even 2 things is a work or action that to my knowledge every anti catholic has said they have tondo so they agree at least some works are required. Then the tongue twisting begins.

I am bery clear, in my humbleness, completely different than the holiest person ive ever read of on this hear board that God will reveal all

One side arguing that nothing has to be done, although believing is doing at least one thing and obeying and following the commandments is at least a 2nd thing, while at the same time trying to convince of their belief that no works must be done, while the Catholic position is grace saves and God calls us to do much in showing that faith through love / works as stated in many many verses up to and including Paul