Deuteronomy 15 -- The kingdom of God is about the here and now, not the once-and-future. Wealth distribution seems to be God's standard. God is not so much worried about the future kingdom but the current.


7 If anyone is poor among your fellow Israelites in any of the towns of the land the Lord your God is giving you, do not be hardhearted or tightfisted toward them. 8 Rather, be openhanded and freely lend them whatever they need. 9 Be careful not to harbor this wicked thought: "The seventh year, the year for canceling debts, is near," so that you do not show ill will toward the needy among your fellow Israelites and give them nothing. They may then appeal to the Lord against you, and you will be found guilty of sin. 10 Give generously to them and do so without a grudging heart; then because of this the Lord your God will bless you in all your work and in everything you put your hand to. 11 There will always be poor people in the land. Therefore I command you to be openhanded toward your fellow Israelites who are poor and needy in your land.

Oldbear83 said:

---

Coke Bear said:

---

historian said:

---

Jesus Christ did not create what we call the Catholic Church. He never called for a hierarchical structure with anyone but Himself as the head and never said anything about Rome as the HQ of the church. Structurally, all the churches in this'd first years were local in Jerusalem, Athens, Corinth, Ephesus, Rome, etc.

The Catholic Church organization that we know did not exist in the first 2-3 centuries after Christ. Christ spoke of the Christian church, His church, which is all believers. That's still true today and the radical guy in the fancy clothes living in the Vatican has nothing to do with most of them today.

---

I'll bite. Who was the first pope of the Catholic Church and when was he appointed/elected?

---

A false contention, as Christ alone leads the Church.

There are countless examples of proud people who thought themselves worthy to be some kind of mini-Christ.

Their fates are horrific.

---

That's not an answer to the question.

Please find a locate an official Church document that states that the Pope(Bishop of Rome) is "some kind of mini-Christ"

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

YOU open the door. JESUS himself comes in. Personally. YOU and JESUS eat and fellowship together, one to one.

NO church organization, bishop, priest, sacrament, Mary, or saint needed in between.

---

It doesn't get more personal, one-to-one interaction with Jesus directly, that receiving the Eucharist in the Catholic or Orthodox Church.

At EVERY mass, we truly, really, and substantially receive the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Jesus Christ.

NO other Christian sect can offer that. Not the Baptists, Methodist, Presbyterians, or Church of BusyTarpDuster2017.

Coke Bear said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

YOU open the door. JESUS himself comes in. Personally. YOU and JESUS eat and fellowship together, one to one.

NO church organization, bishop, priest, sacrament, Mary, or saint needed in between.

---

It doesn't get more personal, one-to-one interaction with Jesus directly, that receiving the Eucharist in the Catholic or Orthodox Church.

At EVERY mass, we truly, really, and substantially receive the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Jesus Christ.

NO other Christian sect can offer that. Not the Baptists, Methodist, Presbyterians, or Church of BusyTarpDuster2017.

---

We know this isn't true. Even unsaved people are able to consume Eucharistic bread and wine. There is no connection to Jesus for these people at all.

A person is saved if they have faith in Jesus and trusts in him for his salvation, even if they never take a bite of the Eucharist. And every saved person has Jesus living in them, and personal one-to-one connection to him. There is no advantage to eating bread and drinking wine. Jesus cares about what's in the heart, not in the stomach.

Coke Bear said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

YOU open the door. JESUS himself comes in. Personally. YOU and JESUS eat and fellowship together, one to one.

NO church organization, bishop, priest, sacrament, Mary, or saint needed in between.

---

It doesn't get more personal, one-to-one interaction with Jesus directly, that receiving the Eucharist in the Catholic or Orthodox Church.

At EVERY mass, we truly, really, and substantially receive the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Jesus Christ.

NO other Christian sect can offer that. Not the Baptists, Methodist, Why not? We are descended from the RC Presbyterians, or Church of BusyTarpDuster2017.

---

Coke Bear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Coke Bear said:

---

historian said:

---

Jesus Christ did not create what we call the Catholic Church. He never called for a hierarchical structure with anyone but Himself as the head and never said anything about Rome as the HQ of the church. Structurally, all the churches in this'd first years were local in Jerusalem, Athens, Corinth, Ephesus, Rome, etc.

The Catholic Church organization that we know did not exist in the first 2-3 centuries after Christ. Christ spoke of the Christian church, His church, which is all believers. That's still true today and the radical guy in the fancy clothes living in the Vatican has nothing to do with most of them today.

---

I'll bite. Who was the first pope of the Catholic Church and when was he appointed/elected?

---

A false contention, as Christ alone leads the Church.

There are countless examples of proud people who thought themselves worthy to be some kind of mini-Christ.

Their fates are horrific.

---

That's not an answer to the question.

Please find a locate an official Church document that states that the Pope(Bishop of Rome) is "some kind of mini-Christ"

---

not playing that game.

My point stands, and to your discredit, you are ducking it sir.

Romans 10:13 KJV
[13] For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Coke Bear said:

---

historian said:

---

I cannot speak for Oldbear but the word "Catholic" means universal. My take is that it refers to Christ's church which is all Christian's everywhere regardless of denomination. Do this means Catholics, Baptist's, Methodists, Eastern Orthodox, Coptic christians, etc.

The labels we use are man made, not God's.

---

Well, I guess this would be where Oldbear and I differ in opinion. Christ only established one Church - the Catholic Church. All the other denominations, however well intentioned, split from it.

I don't' believe he sees it that way, despite historical proof.

---

This is correct. Really no way to dispute it. We hope and pray frequently they return to the church Christ established.

The Church which Christ founded, is based in Heaven, not Rome.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

We know this isn't true. Even unsaved people are able to consume Eucharistic bread and wine. There is no connection to Jesus for these people at all.

---

And they (and Catholics not in a state of grace) do so at risk to their own peril ...

1 Cor 27-30 -

Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord. Let a man examine himself, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment upon himself. That is why many of you are weak and ill, and some have died.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

A person is saved if they have faith in Jesus and trusts in him for his salvation, even if they never take a bite of the Eucharist. And every saved person has Jesus living in them, and personal one-to-one connection to him. There is no advantage to eating bread and drinking wine. Jesus cares about what's in the heart, not in the stomach.

---

Except where Jesus say in ...

John 6:53-59 -

So Jesus said to them, "Very truly, I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.
Those who eat my flesh and drink my blood have eternal life, and I will raise them up on the last day, for my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink.
Those who eat my flesh and drink my blood abide in me and I in them. Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so whoever eats me will live because of me.
This is the bread that came down from heaven, not like that which the ancestors ate, and they died. But the one who eats this bread will live forever."

Coke Bear said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

We know this isn't true. Even unsaved people are able to consume Eucharistic bread and wine. There is no connection to Jesus for these people at all.

---

And they (and Catholics not in a state of grace) do so at risk to their own peril ...

1 Cor 27-30 -

Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord. Let a man examine himself, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment upon himself. That is why many of you are weak and ill, and some have died.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

A person is saved if they have faith in Jesus and trusts in him for his salvation, even if they never take a bite of the Eucharist. And every saved person has Jesus living in them, and personal one-to-one connection to him. There is no advantage to eating bread and drinking wine. Jesus cares about what's in the heart, not in the stomach.

---

Except where Jesus say in ...

John 6:53-59 -

So Jesus said to them, "Very truly, I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.
Those who eat my flesh and drink my blood have eternal life, and I will raise them up on the last day, for my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink.
Those who eat my flesh and drink my blood abide in me and I in them. Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so whoever eats me will live because of me.
This is the bread that came down from heaven, not like that which the ancestors ate, and they died. But the one who eats this bread will live forever."

---

That clearly shows that mere eating the Eucharist bread and wine doesn't bring you close to Jesus. You're supporting my point.

"The words I have spoken to you are Spirit; the flesh profits you nothing". You just don't understand what Jesus is talking about.

And round and round we go. Maybe just settle on the fact that if indeed the bread and wine are Jesus body and blood, then Jesus broke the Law at the Last Supper and therefore he was not the Messiah. You're in between a rock and a hard place here.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

That clearly shows that mere eating the Eucharist bread and wine doesn't bring you close to Jesus. You're supporting my point.

"The words I have spoken to you are Spirit; the flesh profits you nothing". You just don't understand what Jesus is talking about.

---

Unfortunately, it is you who truly does NOT understand what Jesus is talking about.

In Verse 63, Jesus emphasizes the primacy of the Spirit in giving true, eternal life. The spiritual reality of His teaching and His presence surpasses mere physical or earthly understanding.

The "flesh" He is referring to is to is the human nature, not HIS flesh. He just spent the entire Bread of Life discourse telling us HIS FLESH was for eternal life.

Additionally, if your view is that he meant HIS "flesh profits nothing", then you are staying that his crucifixion meant nothing.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

And round and round we go. Maybe just settle on the fact that if indeed the bread and wine are Jesus body and blood, then Jesus broke the Law at the Last Supper and therefore he was not the Messiah. You're in between a rock and a hard place here.

---

Your statement here also demonstrates a lack of knowledge of the three types laws and the Gospels.

Jesus fulfilled the law. The prohibition against drinking the blood was a ceremonial law. All of which were fulfilled with Jesus (as well as the civil laws. The moral law is still in effect.)

To prove this point, in Mark 7:19, Jesus declares food clean

For it doesn't go into their heart but into their stomach, and then out of the body." (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods clean.)

There was nothing wrong with Jesus drinking blood. My Jesus would never sin.

No hard place here. Just the rock (Matt 16:18)that Jesus founded his Church upon.

Coke Bear said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

That clearly shows that mere eating the Eucharist bread and wine doesn't bring you close to Jesus. You're supporting my point.

"The words I have spoken to you are Spirit; the flesh profits you nothing". You just don't understand what Jesus is talking about.

---

Unfortunately, it is you who truly does NOT understand what Jesus is talking about.

In Verse 63, Jesus emphasizes the primacy of the Spirit in giving true, eternal life. The spiritual reality of His teaching and His presence surpasses mere physical or earthly understanding.

The "flesh" He is referring to is to is the human nature, not HIS flesh. He just spent the entire Bread of Life discourse telling us HIS FLESH was for eternal life.

Additionally, if your view is that he meant HIS "flesh profits nothing", then you are staying that his crucifixion meant nothing.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

And round and round we go. Maybe just settle on the fact that if indeed the bread and wine are Jesus body and blood, then Jesus broke the Law at the Last Supper and therefore he was not the Messiah. You're in between a rock and a hard place here.

---

Your statement here also demonstrates a lack of knowledge of the three types laws and the Gospels.

Jesus fulfilled the law. The prohibition against drinking the blood was a ceremonial law. All of which were fulfilled with Jesus (as well as the civil laws. The moral law is still in effect.)

To prove this point, in Mark 7:19, Jesus declares food clean

For it doesn't go into their heart but into their stomach, and then out of the body." (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods clean.)

There was nothing wrong with Jesus drinking blood. My Jesus would never sin.

No hard place here. Just the rock (Matt 16:18)that Jesus founded his Church upon.

---

If eating Jesus literal flesh in the form of the Eucharist bread through transubstantiation gave life, then non-believers who eat the Eucharist bread are saved to eternal life, regardless of their non-belief. Otherwise Jesus was a liar, since you take his words literally.

You just can't take your own beliefs to their logical conclusion. No surprise there.

You saying that I have a lack of understanding of the Law is laughable by your assertion that ceremonial was not part of the Law (the Torah). Jesus said he came to fulfill every jot and tittle of the Torah. Your claim that there was nothing wrong with drinking blood directly contradicts the Torah. And Jesus could not have fulfilled the Law until he obeyed the Law perfectly his whole life until he died. But obviously he was still alive during the Last Supper, and thus still under the Law.

Do you guys believe that the other guys are not going to heaven?

Waco1947 said:

---

Do you guys believe that the other guys are not going to heaven?

---

It depends on where they place their faith for Salvation. If they trust in their Church, good deeds, communion or anything other than Jesus Christ & what He did for you on the cross, then the Bible says you can't get there. Only by Faith in Jesus Christ & His death, burial amd resurrection.

Oldbear83 said:

---

The Church which Christ founded, is based in Heaven, not Rome.

---

Peter was the rock in heaven jesus built his church on? New interpretation up in here

Fre3dombear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

The Church which Christ founded, is based in Heaven, not Rome.

---

Peter was the rock in heaven jesus built his church on? New interpretation up in here

---

The rock Jesus praised was Faith. Peter sometimes demonstrated that faith. Don't forget that minutes after praising Peter's faith by calling him 'Petros", Jesus called him Satan for his lack of faith.

Jesus is the foundation, not any man.

Even the likable and relatable Simon Peter.

Waco1947 said:

---

Do you guys believe that the other guys are not going to heaven?

---

Some get lost chasing false trails.

Waco1947 said:

---

Do you guys believe that the other guys are not going to heaven?

---

Things matter in the Bible. If someone who is their own magisterium as we have a couple in this here thread dream up whatever interpretation they dreamed up this week and believe in it doesn't mean they are obeying God as had been pointed out ad nauseum in verse after verse along with tradition ame 2000 years of belief vs whatever they just came up
With

Many comments by those personal popes here are in fact directly disobeying God. But they also think all good people go to heaven whatever that means amd osas .

So yeah, its complicated for them.

Waco1947 said:

---

Do you guys believe that the other guys are not going to heaven?

---

If Christians did not believe that other people weren't going to heaven, then there would be no such thing as evangelism.

Fre3dombear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Do you guys believe that the other guys are not going to heaven?

---

Things matter in the Bible. If someone who is their own magisterium as we have a couple in this here thread dream up whatever interpretation they dreamed up this week and believe in it doesn't mean they are obeying God as had been pointed out ad nauseum in verse after verse along with tradition ame 2000 years of belief vs whatever they just came up
With

Many comments by those personal popes here are in fact directly disobeying God. But they also think all good people go to heaven whatever that means amd osas .

So yeah, its complicated for them.

---

Good lord, your comments are SO stupid.

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Do you guys believe that the other guys are not going to heaven?

---

It depends on where they place their faith for Salvation. If they trust in their Church, good deeds, communion or anything other than Jesus Christ & what He did for you on the cross, then the Bible says you can't get there. Only by Faith in Jesus Christ & His death, burial amd resurrection.

---

So, an all-knowing God would know that for the moment of my creation that I was going to hell and eternal torment? Then why create me in the first place, knowing from the start I would not place my faith in JC? What a cruel God!

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Do you guys believe that the other guys are not going to heaven?

---

If Christians did not believe that other people weren't going to heaven, then there would be no such thing as evangelism.

---

Well, the hearts of those who never get the message of evangelism. What a cruel God.

Waco1947 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Do you guys believe that the other guys are not going to heaven?

---

If Christians did not believe that other people weren't going to heaven, then there would be no such thing as evangelism.

---

Well, the hearts of those who never get the message of evangelism. What a cruel God.

---

I think we all have a hard time thinking that situation would be fair. But unlike you, many of us don't assume we're in a position to make that judgement about God. No one knows what God will do for those people, least of all you.

It's called having faith in God's character. It's having faith that whatever God does, it will be right.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Do you guys believe that the other guys are not going to heaven?

---

Things matter in the Bible. If someone who is their own magisterium as we have a couple in this here thread dream up whatever interpretation they dreamed up this week and believe in it doesn't mean they are obeying God as had been pointed out ad nauseum in verse after verse along with tradition ame 2000 years of belief vs whatever they just came up
With

Many comments by those personal popes here are in fact directly disobeying God. But they also think all good people go to heaven whatever that means amd osas .

So yeah, its complicated for them.

---

Good lord, your comments are SO stupid.

---

Can we please keep it respectful? He is entitled to his opinion Just As You Are please, you don't have to agree but don't call people stupid. And don't call their opinions stupid either. That doesn't accomplish anything.

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Do you guys believe that the other guys are not going to heaven?

---

Things matter in the Bible. If someone who is their own magisterium as we have a couple in this here thread dream up whatever interpretation they dreamed up this week and believe in it doesn't mean they are obeying God as had been pointed out ad nauseum in verse after verse along with tradition ame 2000 years of belief vs whatever they just came up
With

Many comments by those personal popes here are in fact directly disobeying God. But they also think all good people go to heaven whatever that means amd osas .

So yeah, its complicated for them.

---

Good lord, your comments are SO stupid.

---

Can we please keep it respectful? He is entitled to his opinion Just As You Are please, you don't have to agree but don't call people stupid. And don't call their opinions stupid either. That doesn't accomplish anything.

---

Hey, if the shoe fits....

And I never called him stupid. I only called his comments stupid. Which they are. That's my opinion which I'm entitled to, just like you said.

Funny, though... when he called me a "dolt" and curtpenn was being his usual vulgar self at me, there wasn't a peep out of you.

Waco1947 said:

---

Do you guys believe that the other guys are not going to heaven?

---

What I believe doesn't matter really.

"Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God." (1st Corinthians 6:9-10)

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Do you guys believe that the other guys are not going to heaven?

---

Things matter in the Bible. If someone who is their own magisterium as we have a couple in this here thread dream up whatever interpretation they dreamed up this week and believe in it doesn't mean they are obeying God as had been pointed out ad nauseum in verse after verse along with tradition ame 2000 years of belief vs whatever they just came up
With

Many comments by those personal popes here are in fact directly disobeying God. But they also think all good people go to heaven whatever that means amd osas .

So yeah, its complicated for them.

---

Good lord, your comments are SO stupid.

---

Can we please keep it respectful? He is entitled to his opinion Just As You Are please, you don't have to agree but don't call people stupid. And don't call their opinions stupid either. That doesn't accomplish anything.

---

Hey, if the shoe fits....

And I never called him stupid. I only called his comments stupid. Which they are. That's my opinion which I'm entitled to, just like you said.

Funny, though... when he called me a "dolt" and curtpenn was being his usual vulgar self at me, there wasn't a peep out of you.

---

I didn't aee it or I would have said something. Please keep this passage in mind:

Matthew 5:22 KJV
[22] but I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Realitybites said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Do you guys believe that the other guys are not going to heaven?

---

What I believe doesn't matter really.

"Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God." (1st Corinthians 6:9-10)

---

So you blame God while believing God is all-knowing and KNOWS we will go to hell at the moment of our creation?

PS There is no word in Greek for "homosexuality". Upir text's translator is shoddy in his translation.

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Do you guys believe that the other guys are not going to heaven?

---

Things matter in the Bible. If someone who is their own magisterium as we have a couple in this here thread dream up whatever interpretation they dreamed up this week and believe in it doesn't mean they are obeying God as had been pointed out ad nauseum in verse after verse along with tradition ame 2000 years of belief vs whatever they just came up
With

Many comments by those personal popes here are in fact directly disobeying God. But they also think all good people go to heaven whatever that means amd osas .

So yeah, its complicated for them.

---

Good lord, your comments are SO stupid.

---

Can we please keep it respectful? He is entitled to his opinion Just As You Are please, you don't have to agree but don't call people stupid. And don't call their opinions stupid either. That doesn't accomplish anything.

---

Hey, if the shoe fits....

And I never called him stupid. I only called his comments stupid. Which they are. That's my opinion which I'm entitled to, just like you said.

Funny, though... when he called me a "dolt" and curtpenn was being his usual vulgar self at me, there wasn't a peep out of you.

---

I didn't aee it or I would have said something. Please keep this passage in mind:

Matthew 5:22 KJV
[22] but I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

---

Thanks for your concern, but those verses don't apply. I didn't call him stupid or a fool, I said his comments were stupid. And they are. There's nothing wrong in pointing that out.

"Oh, foolish Galatians!" - Galatians 3:1

"'Are you so dull?' [Jesus] asked." - Mark 7:18

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Do you guys believe that the other guys are not going to heaven?

---

Things matter in the Bible. If someone who is their own magisterium as we have a couple in this here thread dream up whatever interpretation they dreamed up this week and believe in it doesn't mean they are obeying God as had been pointed out ad nauseum in verse after verse along with tradition ame 2000 years of belief vs whatever they just came up
With

Many comments by those personal popes here are in fact directly disobeying God. But they also think all good people go to heaven whatever that means amd osas .

So yeah, its complicated for them.

---

Good lord, your comments are SO stupid.

---

Can we please keep it respectful? He is entitled to his opinion Just As You Are please, you don't have to agree but don't call people stupid. And don't call their opinions stupid either. That doesn't accomplish anything.

---

Hey, if the shoe fits....

And I never called him stupid. I only called his comments stupid. Which they are. That's my opinion which I'm entitled to, just like you said.

Funny, though... when he called me a "dolt" and curtpenn was being his usual vulgar self at me, there wasn't a peep out of you.

---

I didn't aee it or I would have said something. Please keep this passage in mind:

Matthew 5:22 KJV
[22] but I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

---

Thanks for your concern, but those verses don't apply. I didn't call him stupid or a fool, I said his comments were stupid. And they are. There's nothing wrong in pointing that out.

"Oh, foolish Galatians!" - Galatians 3:1

"'Are you so dull?' [Jesus] asked." - Mark 7:18

---

You're going to hate me for saying this, but context and intent make a difference. I know, I know...more Catholic double-talk.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

If eating Jesus literal flesh in the form of the Eucharist bread through transubstantiation gave life, then non-believers who eat the Eucharist bread are saved to eternal life, regardless of their non-belief. Otherwise Jesus was a liar, since you take his words literally.

You just can't take your own beliefs to their logical conclusion. No surprise there.

---

Actually, please read 1 Corinthians 11:27-30 closely where Paul warns and chastises those that eat and drink unworthily.

27 Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord. 28 Let a man examine himself, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 29 For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment upon himself. 30 That is why many of you are weak and ill, and some have died.

Lastly, on this point, Jesus can give eternal life to those who obey and received the Eucharist, but we can reject that gift of eternal life with our actions.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

You saying that I have a lack of understanding of the Law is laughable by your assertion that ceremonial was not part of the Law (the Torah). Jesus said he came to fulfill every jot and tittle of the Torah. Your claim that there was nothing wrong with drinking blood directly contradicts the Torah. And Jesus could not have fulfilled the Law until he obeyed the Law perfectly his whole life until he died. But obviously he was still alive during the Last Supper, and thus still under the Law.

---

I never said that the ceremonial law was not part of the Torah. You are creating strawmen of others' point again.

At the Last Supper, Jesus instituted the Eucharist saying, "This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins."

There he fulfilled the old ceremonial laws and created a new and eternal covenant that transcends the old one.

The Eucharistic celebration is not an ordinary Consumption of blood but a sacramental participation in the mystery of Christ's death and resurrection the appearances of bread and wine remain but their essence is transformed through transubstantiation into the Body and Blood of Christ.

And then you also skipped over the fact (which I'll state again, in Mark 7:19, Jesus declares all foods clean -

For it doesn't go into their heart but into their stomach, and then out of the body." (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods clean.)

Coke Bear said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

If eating Jesus literal flesh in the form of the Eucharist bread through transubstantiation gave life, then non-believers who eat the Eucharist bread are saved to eternal life, regardless of their non-belief. Otherwise Jesus was a liar, since you take his words literally.

You just can't take your own beliefs to their logical conclusion. No surprise there.

---

Actually, please read 1 Corinthians 11:27-30 closely where Paul warns and chastises those that eat and drink unworthily.

27 Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord. 28 Let a man examine himself, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 29 For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment upon himself. 30 That is why many of you are weak and ill, and some have died.

Lastly, on this point, Jesus can give eternal life to those who obey and received the Eucharist, but we can reject that gift of eternal life with our actions.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

You saying that I have a lack of understanding of the Law is laughable by your assertion that ceremonial was not part of the Law (the Torah). Jesus said he came to fulfill every jot and tittle of the Torah. Your claim that there was nothing wrong with drinking blood directly contradicts the Torah. And Jesus could not have fulfilled the Law until he obeyed the Law perfectly his whole life until he died. But obviously he was still alive during the Last Supper, and thus still under the Law.

---

I never said that the ceremonial law was not part of the Torah. You are creating strawmen of others' point again.

At the Last Supper, Jesus instituted the Eucharist saying, "This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins."

There he fulfilled the old ceremonial laws and created a new and eternal covenant that transcends the old one.

The Eucharistic celebration is not an ordinary Consumption of blood but a sacramental participation in the mystery of Christ's death and resurrection the appearances of bread and wine remain but their essence is transformed through transubstantiation into the Body and Blood of Christ.

And then you also skipped over the fact (which I'll state again, in Mark 7:19, Jesus declares all foods clean -

For it doesn't go into their heart but into their stomach, and then out of the body." (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods clean.)

---

Look, I'm getting tired of maligning your lack of logical thinking, and besides it's getting me in trouble with my protestant brethren here..... but you continue to fail to apply logic correctly. As I've said to you repeatedly, if you're arguing that Jesus was literal in John 6, then eating his flesh gives you eternal life. He makes no conditions. If you're saying that Paul contradicts that, then you're saying that Jesus and Paul are in contradiction. Because if Paul is correct, then Jesus is a liar, since a person can eat Jesus' flesh and NOT have eternal life.

In Mark 7:19, the words in parenthesis ("thus, he declared all foods unclean") may have not been original. But regardless, it isn't relevant, because blood is NOT "food" in the Torah. The dietary laws spell out what kinds of MEAT you can eat from the animals, not their blood. The prohibition against eating blood is explicit and clear.

I have still have yet to hear your solution to the problem with Judas not being saved, and the apostles' instruction to Gentile believers to abstain from blood.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Coke Bear said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

If eating Jesus literal flesh in the form of the Eucharist bread through transubstantiation gave life, then non-believers who eat the Eucharist bread are saved to eternal life, regardless of their non-belief. Otherwise Jesus was a liar, since you take his words literally.

You just can't take your own beliefs to their logical conclusion. No surprise there.

---

Actually, please read 1 Corinthians 11:27-30 closely where Paul warns and chastises those that eat and drink unworthily.

27 Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord. 28 Let a man examine himself, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 29 For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment upon himself. 30 That is why many of you are weak and ill, and some have died.

Lastly, on this point, Jesus can give eternal life to those who obey and received the Eucharist, but we can reject that gift of eternal life with our actions.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

You saying that I have a lack of understanding of the Law is laughable by your assertion that ceremonial was not part of the Law (the Torah). Jesus said he came to fulfill every jot and tittle of the Torah. Your claim that there was nothing wrong with drinking blood directly contradicts the Torah. And Jesus could not have fulfilled the Law until he obeyed the Law perfectly his whole life until he died. But obviously he was still alive during the Last Supper, and thus still under the Law.

---

I never said that the ceremonial law was not part of the Torah. You are creating strawmen of others' point again.

At the Last Supper, Jesus instituted the Eucharist saying, "This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins."

There he fulfilled the old ceremonial laws and created a new and eternal covenant that transcends the old one.

The Eucharistic celebration is not an ordinary Consumption of blood but a sacramental participation in the mystery of Christ's death and resurrection the appearances of bread and wine remain but their essence is transformed through transubstantiation into the Body and Blood of Christ.

And then you also skipped over the fact (which I'll state again, in Mark 7:19, Jesus declares all foods clean -

For it doesn't go into their heart but into their stomach, and then out of the body." (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods clean.)

---

Look, I'm getting tired of maligning your lack of logical thinking, and besides it's getting me in trouble with my protestant brethren here..... but you continue to fail to apply logic correctly. As I've said to you repeatedly, if you're arguing that Jesus was literal in John 6, then eating his flesh gives you eternal life. He makes no conditions. If you're saying that Paul contradicts that, then you're saying that Jesus and Paul are in contradiction. Because if Paul is correct, then Jesus is a liar, since a person can eat Jesus' flesh and NOT have eternal life.

In Mark 7:19, the words in parenthesis ("thus, he declared all foods unclean") may have not been original. But regardless, it isn't relevant, because blood is NOT "food" in the Torah. The dietary laws spell out what kinds of MEAT you can eat from the animals, not their blood. The prohibition against eating blood is explicit and clear.

I have still have yet to hear your solution to the problem with Judas not being saved, and the apostles' instruction to Gentile believers to abstain from blood.

---

If there's a contradiction between Jesus and Paul, the symbolic interpretation doesn't make it go away.

The prohibitions on blood and certain types of meat are equally clear. If Jesus can change one, he can change the other.

If Judas wasn't saved, it's because "once saved, always saved" isn't true.

The instruction to Gentile believers was a pastoral one, in order to avoid giving scandal.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

Quote:

---

Are you saying that religion hinders our personal relationship with Jesus?

---

Can someone point me to a specific Bible verse that says "to be saved, you must have a personal relationship with Jesus?"

---

I do not support the view of a "personal relationship" with Jesus where Jesus is your "buddy" who just accepts you for who you are. But what is meant by a "personal relationship" with Jesus being required for salvation, is simply that your salvation comes by way of a personal, one-to-one interaction with Jesus directly, where you come to faith and trust in Jesus in your heart, and Jesus knows you and counts you as one of his, and he enters your life by way of his Spirit. Salvation happens at this kind of personal level - NOT at the corporate level by way of a church organization making it happen through certain rites and rituals and other steps that only they can dispense, which is what Roman Catholicism and Orthodoxy believes. Salvation is between you and God/Jesus, and no one else. No bishop, priest, sacraments, Mary, or the saints is needed as an in-between. A man stranded on a deserted island who comes to true faith and trust in Jesus, who never gets water baptized, who never confesses to priests, and who never takes part in the Eucharist.... is saved and belongs to Jesus' church - his body of believers. Period. This is the clear witness of all of Scripture. This simple truth has been and is still being distorted and obscured for nearly two millenia.


"Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me." - Revelation 3:20


YOU open the door. JESUS himself comes in. Personally. YOU and JESUS eat and fellowship together, one to one.

NO church organization, bishop, priest, sacrament, Mary, or saint needed in between.

---

The thief on the cross is saved and in heaven today.

Note, he was never baptized and did not partake in the Last Supper.