A PRAYER OF SALVATION: If you have any doubts about whether or not you are going to heaven, YOU COULD HUMBLY PRAY SOMETHING LIKE THIS TO GOD FROM YOUR HEART IN FAITH:

"Dear Lord Jesus I know that I am a sinner and need you to save me. I believe that You are the Lord and believe in my heart that You died on the Cross and Rose from the dead, shedding your blood as the Sacrifice for my sins. I turn to You as the only way of Salvation, I submit my life to you, I submit my will to yours, I place my Faith and Trust in You alone as Lord of my life, Please save me and I thank You for it, in Jesus holy name, Amen."

If you have truly placed your faith in Jesus Christ as your Lord, submitting your life to Him, you can know that you are a child of God and on your way to heaven. Now that you are on your way to heaven, you should attend a bible believing Church and follow in baptism.

Studying The Bible Is Essential To Christians Growth. Click Here To Walk Through The Bible Verse By Verse From The Beginning, In 25 Minute Lessons:

https://www.lesfeldick.org/

canoso said:

---

What a clear reminder that any text yanked out of context is merely a pretext. Thank you.

---

Care to qualify that statement?

I can certainly demonstrate apostolic succession biblical by fleshing it out further using Matt 10 thru 2 Tim 2:2 and Titus 1:5.

I was merely showing that his statement was incorrect.

Oldbear83 said:

---

My pastor does not make political statements as the Pope does.

My deacons do not call themselves 'princes' as Cardinals do, nor do they dress like royalty.

---

Is your pastor the leader of a sovereign country? Also, you mean to tell me that I can't walk into a protestant church of any stripe during election season and not here some pastors speak about politics? I was born at night, but not last night.

Princes - this dates back to medieval culture. Why does it bother you? The Pope is called to be the servants of servants of God. The cardinals are also servants.

" Princes - this dates back to medieval culture. Why does it bother you? The Pope is called to be the servants of servants of God. The cardinals are also servants."

Here's the thing, Coke Bear.

You are on the mark that everyone who wishes to lead must be a servant.


Dresses like royalty


Lives and works in private walled palace

Not much like working folks, they certainly do not look like servants.


To be fair, I have great dislike of Protestant ministers who do the same thing








I don't see any of these guys even thinking about the poor, the destitute, those falsely arrested and wasting alone in prison, or frankly any common person, let alone doing anything to help them.

There is nothing of Christ in them.

Oldbear83 said:

---

" Princes - this dates back to medieval culture. Why does it bother you? The Pope is called to be the servants of servants of God. The cardinals are also servants."

Here's the thing, Coke Bear.

You are on the mark that everyone who wishes to lead must be a servant.


Dresses like royalty


Lives and works in private walled palace

Not much like working folks, they certainly do not look like servants.


To be fair, I have great dislike of Protestant ministers who do the same thing








I don't see any of these guys even thinking about the poor, the destitute, those falsely arrested and wasting alone in prison, or frankly any common person, let alone doing anything to help them.

There is nothing of Christ in them.

---

Fair points. I forgot to address the clothing worn by religious. To our American, modern eyes, their vestments do look peculiar. I've grown up with it so I just accept. Turn the coin an imagine how Catholic feel when they see preachers (like those posted) serving God wearing $2000 suits. Or even today's hip preachers wearing faded jeans, polo, no socks and sneakers. It seems strange at the least, to me.

The clothing that they wear is a throw-back (if you will) to our Jewish ancestors. Under all the "garb" the priest wears black pants and shirt (or a cassock) symbolizing his humility, mourning, poverty, and a "dying to self" to live for God.

He next puts on the white Alb. It symbolizes purity and baptism and it's the robe that Christ wore.

The Cincture - A cord belt, symbolizing readiness for service, self-control, and the ropes binding Christ.

Stole - A long strip of cloth worn around the neck, symbolizing the priest's ordained office, authority, and the cross Christ carried. Similar to a yoke, I suppose.

Chasuble - The outermost garment, symbolizing Christ's seamless robe and charity covering sins, its color changing with the liturgical season.

This is all in semblance of breastplate wore by the Jewish high priest.

These vestments are not used to stand out for attention. They are to draw the eyes away from the man inside the vestments.


At parishes that can afford to buy the vestments made with nice materials, they do. We believe in giving our best to God. Just like Able gave his firstlings. We shouldn't give of our reserves. We should give of our first fruits. This is why the Church for centuries has built the most magnificent structures and art to honor God. We give that glory back to him.

Please note in many countries in African, you will not see the priests dressing with the finest materials. They can't afford it. The make do with what they have.

Charity - has another organization in the history of the world, done more for the poor than the Catholic Church?

Finally, with respect to the "private walled palace", ask yourself how old is it? It's 400+ years old. Also, anyone can tour the Vatican and parts of the Papel Palace. Just like we citizens can tour the parts of the White House and Capitol today.

PS: Vatican City is NOT completely walled. A large swath, such as St Peter's Square is open to anyone that wants to walk into it.

The Pope is the leader of the Church and a country.

Please take the time to read this first post if you haven't yet

Coke Bear said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

Coke Bear said:

---

Like I said, even protestant scholars believe that Peter was the undisputed leader of the Apostles.

---

Let's reverse engineer your position for a moment.

1. I presume that you believe that Peter was the first Pope, and the first occupant of that office.
2. Do you believe that Peter, as the first Pope, also had the power to speak "ex-cathedra"?

---

1. Yes
2. Yes, he wrote two encyclicals called 1 & 2 Peter, which are found in bibles today.

---

Ubi primum, which is generally regarded as the first papal encyclical in your circles. Calling the two general epistles of Peter "encyclicals" is a bit of a bait and switch.

Why not talk about Biblical Doctrine rather than Church Doctrine? What does the Bible say?

Have a great weekend everyone

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Why not talk about Biblical Doctrine rather than Church Doctrine? What does the Bible say?

---

Because this is a false dichotomy.

When was the last time you heard somoene from the evangelical world preach on Christian fasting?

Never, right?

And yet what does Jesus say in Matthew 17:21 and Matthew 9:15?

" When was the last time you heard somoene from the evangelical world preach on Christian fasting?

Never, right?"

Depends on who you mean by 'evangelical'. I have heard both Southern Baptist and UMC ministers preach on fasting, especially its moral lesson.

" The Pope is the leader of the Church and a country."

How does that square with Jesus' statement 'My Kingdom is not of this world'?

Realitybites said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Why not talk about Biblical Doctrine rather than Church Doctrine? What does the Bible say?

---

Because this is a false dichotomy.

When was the last time you heard somoene from the evangelical world preach on Christian fasting?

Never, right?

And yet what does Jesus say in Matthew 17:21 and Matthew 9:15?

---

False dichotomy??

When is the last time you heard the evangelical world credit Mary for their salvation in their liturgy? Also never, right?

When is the last time you heard the Orthodox world credit Mary for their salvation in their liturgy? Probably last week and again tomorrow, all over the Orthodox world. False dichotomy indeed.

And how in the world would you know that fasting isn't preached in the evangelical world? You read over every evangelical sermon weekly? Strange for an Orthodox Christian to do that.

Oldbear83 said:

---

" When was the last time you heard somoene from the evangelical world preach on Christian fasting?

Never, right?"

Depends on who you mean by 'evangelical'. I have heard both Southern Baptist and UMC ministers preach on fasting, especially its moral lesson.

---

Before becoming Orthodox, I was SBC for the better part of 35 or so years. Member and regular tither at a handful of churches as I moved for work. Listened to all the big Eva names on Christian radio. Didn't hear a single sermon series or message about the importance of fasting as a Christian discipline, only the misapplication of Colossians 2:16. They may be out there, but I never heard a single one.

As far as the UMC, I actively avoided anything coming out of it given its institutional support for abortion, homosexuality, paganism, and pretty much any anti Christian thing they could get their hands on.

Realitybites said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

" When was the last time you heard somoene from the evangelical world preach on Christian fasting?

Never, right?"

Depends on who you mean by 'evangelical'. I have heard both Southern Baptist and UMC ministers preach on fasting, especially its moral lesson.

---

Before becoming Orthodox, I was SBC for the better part of 35 or so years. Member and regular tither at a handful of churches as I moved for work. Listened to all the big Eva names on Christian radio. Didn't hear a single sermon series or message about the importance of fasting as a Christian discipline, only the misapplication of Colossians 2:16. They may be out there, but I never heard a single one.

As far as the UMC, I actively avoided anything coming out of it given its institutional support for abortion, homosexuality, paganism, and pretty much any anti Christian thing they could get their hands on.

---

Your post may be the result of your personal experience, Realitybites, but it comes off to me as biased against Southern Baptists. As for the Methodists, the UMC now is sadly very different from the UMC I knew decades ago. There is a reason Revelation warns of churches which 'lose their candlestand'.

Of course, we should all pay attention to our congregation, as this falling away has happened in many places. I hear of Roman Catholic and Anglican priests claiming Abortion is not a sin but a right, I hear of Episcopalians suggesting your soul depends on supporting certain politicians, I hear of places where the focus is more on what they want you to buy (self-help videos, etc.) and not much on Christ.

We serve and follow Christ, not the famous or the rich.

A lesson we should all take to heart.

I hope you all had a great weekend

Oldbear83 said:

---

" The Pope is the leader of the Church and a country."

How does that square with Jesus' statement 'My Kingdom is not of this world'?

---

It doesn't negate the Church's hierarchical structure, but it highlights that the Church's mission transcends earthly power and politics.

The fact that Vatican City is its own country ensures the Pope's independence and provides a physical home for the central administration of the Catholic Church. It is not subject to Italy or any other country.

Coke Bear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

" The Pope is the leader of the Church and a country."

How does that square with Jesus' statement 'My Kingdom is not of this world'?

---

It doesn't negate the Church's hierarchical structure, but it highlights that the Church's mission transcends earthly power and politics.

The fact that Vatican City is its own country ensures the Pope's independence and provides a physical home for the central administration of the Catholic Church. It is not subject to Italy or any other country.

---

So you basically admit that the Pope has a kingdom here on Earth, as opposed to what Jesus told us.

Oldbear83 said:

---

Coke Bear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

" The Pope is the leader of the Church and a country."

How does that square with Jesus' statement 'My Kingdom is not of this world'?

---

It doesn't negate the Church's hierarchical structure, but it highlights that the Church's mission transcends earthly power and politics.

The fact that Vatican City is its own country ensures the Pope's independence and provides a physical home for the central administration of the Catholic Church. It is not subject to Italy or any other country.

---

So you basically admit that the Pope has a kingdom here on Earth, as opposed to what Jesus told us.

---

Well, yes, he has a spiritual kingdom on earth, known as the Kingdom of God, as the Vicar of Christ, as the successor of Peter, who serves as pastor of the universal Church.

Where does Jesus say that we are not to have kingdoms or countries in the Bible?

Jesus affirms earthly authority in Mark 12:17 -

"Render unto Caesar what belongs to Caesar and to God what belongs to God."

Jesus didn't come to earth to establish a country. He came to redeem mankind, reveal God's love, to teach us about the Kingdom, establish a Church, and conquer death.

That Church that he established has to have a physical location. It's not a nebulous body of believers. By divine providence, that place was chosen to be the Vatican City.

"Where does Jesus say that we are not to have kingdoms or countries in the Bible?"

John 18:36 Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jewish leaders. But now my kingdom is from another place."

That's pretty clear on how Christians should act as leaders of the faith. Lead by example, not like political powers.

The Vatican is of man, not God.

The Church and the Kingdom of God are not synonymous.

Sam Lowry said:

---

The Church and the Kingdom of God are not synonymous.

---

Anything to give the Pope what he wants.

Power, money, influence in earthly affairs.

So much like Caesar, so little like Christ.

Oldbear83 said:

---

"Where does Jesus say that we are not to have kingdoms or countries in the Bible?"

John 18:36 Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jewish leaders. But now my kingdom is from another place."

That's pretty clear on how Christians should act as leaders of the faith. Lead by example, not like political powers.

---

OK. You are now Pope. Where are you going to build your church? What protections will you implore? Please lay out a better system for us. Please tell us how you will manage 1.2 billion of your followers that are spread across the world.

You seem to know what Jesus would do.

Oldbear83 said:

---

The Vatican is of man, not God.

---

Build by man, but the Church was established by Jesus.

Oldbear83 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

The Church and the Kingdom of God are not synonymous.

---

Anything to give the Pope what he wants.

Power, money, influence in earthly affairs.

So much like Caesar, so little like Christ.

---

I can only laugh at the idea that the pope has any power in earthly affairs. Or any regard for fashion trends, since that seems to be such a concern.

Coke Bear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

"Where does Jesus say that we are not to have kingdoms or countries in the Bible?"

John 18:36 Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jewish leaders. But now my kingdom is from another place."

That's pretty clear on how Christians should act as leaders of the faith. Lead by example, not like political powers.

---

OK. You are now Pope. Where are you going to build your church? What protections will you implore? Please lay out a better system for us. Please tell us how you will manage 1.2 billion of your followers that are spread across the world.

You seem to know what Jesus would do.

---

Jesus would tell the Pope the same thing He said to the Rich Young Ruler.

Likely with the same result.

Coke Bear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

The Vatican is of man, not God.

---

Build by man, but the Church was established by Jesus.

---

Yes, the Church. Not the Vatican, nor any earthly building or site, but the Church of believers.

Oldbear83 said:

---

Coke Bear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

"Where does Jesus say that we are not to have kingdoms or countries in the Bible?"

John 18:36 Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jewish leaders. But now my kingdom is from another place."

That's pretty clear on how Christians should act as leaders of the faith. Lead by example, not like political powers.

---

OK. You are now Pope. Where are you going to build your church? What protections will you implore? Please lay out a better system for us. Please tell us how you will manage 1.2 billion of your followers that are spread across the world.

You seem to know what Jesus would do.

---

Jesus would tell the Pope the same thing He said to the Rich Young Ruler.

Likely with the same result.

---

Unlikely, since the pope has no personal wealth to speak of.

Oldbear83 said:

---

Jesus would tell the Pope the same thing He said to the Rich Young Ruler.

Likely with the same result.

---

OK, let's say they sell everything: the buildings, the art, the archives, etc.

Now the world is deprived of all of that forever. It ALL belongs to private collectors we generations will never get to enjoy it. I suppose one could argue that "it's only material possessions so, who cares?!"

Let's say all of the art, buildings, achieves generate 100 billion dollars. Is that going to eradicate world poverty, war, famine, corruption, greed? If so for how long?

I believe Jesus once said in Matthew (26:11), Mark (14:7), and John (12:8):

"The poor you will always have with you, but you will not always have me".

Now that you've sold everything, how will you manage your 1.2 billion followers?

Finally, please provide ONE organization that has done more for the poor than the Catholic Church has done for the last two millennia.

Oldbear83 said:

---

Coke Bear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

The Vatican is of man, not God.

---

Build by man, but the Church was established by Jesus.

---

Yes, the Church. Not the Vatican, nor any earthly building or site, but the Church of believers.

---

Headed by the Pope!

Funny, history suggests otherwise and I noticed you ducked the parts about earthly power and influence, which popes have always enjoyed and flexed.

Coke Bear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Coke Bear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

The Vatican is of man, not God.

---

Build by man, but the Church was established by Jesus.

---

Yes, the Church. Not the Vatican, nor any earthly building or site, but the Church of believers.

---

Headed by the Pope!

---

Nope. Jesus.

This is not hard, it's all written down by the first Disciples and Apostles.

Coke Bear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Jesus would tell the Pope the same thing He said to the Rich Young Ruler.

Likely with the same result.

---

OK, let's say they sell everything: the buildings, the art, the archives, etc.

Now the world is deprived of all of that forever. It ALL belongs to private collectors we generations will never get to enjoy it. I suppose one could argue that "it's only material possessions so, who cares?!"

Let's say all of the art, buildings, achieves generate 100 billion dollars. Is that going to eradicate world poverty, war, famine, corruption, greed? If so for how long?

I believe Jesus once said in Matthew (26:11), Mark (14:7), and John (12:8):

"The poor you will always have with you, but you will not always have me".

Now that you've sold everything, how will you manage your 1.2 billion followers?

Finally, please provide ONE organization that has done more for the poor than the Catholic Church has done for the last two millennia.

---

I recall a verse about giving from abundance, versus giving when it's all you have.

But go ahead and keep bragging about all that money.