And there it is again, that arrogance which - deliberately it appears - ignores the point.

All the popes are sinners, just like the rest of us.

How then is a pope therefore qualified to rule on a doctrine not specifically set out in Scripture?

Your anger serves no good purpose, brother.

Oldbear83 said:

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And there it is again, that arrogance which - deliberately it appears - ignores the point.

All the popes are sinners, just like the rest of us.

How then is a pope therefore qualified to rule on a doctrine not specifically set out in Scripture?

Your anger serves no good purpose, brother.

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There is no anger here. I actually feel sorry for you.

How would any sinner be able to rule on doctrine? Your premise is illogical.

Scripture says otherwise,

Matt 16:18-19 -

"And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."

John 21:1517 - Jesus Reinstates Peter

When they had finished eating, Jesus said to Simon Peter, "Simon son of John, do you love me more than these?"
"Yes, Lord," he said, "you know that I love you."
Jesus said, "Feed my lambs."
Again Jesus said, "Simon son of John, do you love me?"
He answered, "Yes, Lord, you know that I love you."
Jesus said, "Take care of my sheep."
The third time he said to him, "Simon son of John, do you love me?"
Peter was hurt because Jesus asked him the third time, "Do you love me?" He said, "Lord, you know all things; you know that I love you."
Jesus said, "Feed my sheep."

Just because the pope is a sinner doesn't mean that he can rule on doctrine. Papal infallibility a negative protection from error, not a positive inspiration like a prophet or apostle.

How did sinful men rule at the Council of Nicaea confirm the Divinity of Christ (homoousios) in spite of the Arians?
How did sinful men rule at the Council of Constantinople confirm the Divinity of the Holy Spirit in spite of the Macedonians?

Your sinner men premise fails at the beginning.

And yet again, you cherry-pick what you believe supports your opinion, and the rest is ignored.

For that, I feel sorry for you, as you miss much of importance.

A PRAYER OF SALVATION:

If you have any doubts about whether or not you are going to heaven, YOU COULD HUMBLY PRAY SOMETHING LIKE THIS TO GOD FROM YOUR HEART IN FAITH:

"Dear Lord Jesus I know that I am a sinner and need you to save me. I believe that You are the Lord and believe in my heart that You died on the Cross and Rose from the dead, shedding your blood as the Sacrifice for my sins. I turn to You as the only way of Salvation, I submit my life to you, I submit my will to yours, I place my Faith and Trust in You alone as Lord of my life, Please save me and I thank You for it, in Jesus holy name, Amen."

If you have truly placed your faith in Jesus Christ as your Lord, submitting your life to Him, you can know that you are a child of God and on your way to heaven. Now that you are on your way to heaven, you should attend a bible believing Church and follow in baptism.

Studying The Bible Is Essential To Christians Growth. Click Here To Walk Through The Bible Verse By Verse From The Beginning, In 25 Minute Lessons:

https://www.lesfeldick.org/

Oldbear83 said:

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And yet again, you cherry-pick what you believe supports your opinion, and the rest is ignored.

For that, I feel sorry for you, as you miss much of importance.

---

Again, your post is a vague, amorphous sentence with no context.

I'll type slowly for you.

Cite. A. Specific. Belief.

I'm not cherry picking anything. I am believing what has been believed since the beginning of the Church, not what someone made up in the 1500's. Good luck with that.

I can date my beliefs to the Church fathers. Can you?

.

So much arrogance in your post. And again, older does not mean better, much less flawless,or Christ would not have rebuked the Scribes and Pharisees.

Roman Catholics sin just as much as Protestants, but some RCs take great effort to pretend their hands are cleaner and they merit Heaven more than others

Oldbear83 said:

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So much arrogance in your post. And again, older does not mean better, much less flawless,or Christ would not have rebuked the Scribes and Pharisees.

Roman Catholics sin just as much as Protestants, but some RCs take great effort to pretend their hands are cleaner and they merit Heaven more than others

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Please elaborate where Catholics "pretend that their hands are cleaner and they merit Heaven more than others."

I'm not a mind reader. If I were, I'd be at a poker table in Vegas.

Just read through your ripostes to non-RCC members here

Your tone sometimes reeks of Caiaphas.

Oldbear83 said:

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Just read through your ripostes to non-RCC members here

Your tone sometimes reeks of Caiaphas.

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In other words, you can't. No worries. I can let your little jab go.

PS. You may claim that my posts contain arrogance, but it's because they are filled with the Truth of the Catholic Church. Maybe you can't handle the truth?

The truth hurts, but only for a bit.

Coke Bear said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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Just read through your ripostes to non-RCC members here

Your tone sometimes reeks of Caiaphas.

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In other words, you can't. No worries. I can let your little jab go.

PS. You may claim that my posts contain arrogance, but it's because they are filled with the Truth of the Catholic Church. Maybe you can't handle the truth?

The truth hurts, but only for a bit.

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I am choosing not to copy your unchristian tactics.

That is the relevant truth here.

Coke Bear said:

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I'll type slowly for you.

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Just this shot from you, as an example. There is a spirit which moved you to choose those words, but it's not the Holy Spirit.

.

Oldbear83 said:

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Coke Bear said:

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I'll type slowly for you.

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Just this shot from you, as an example. There is a spirit which moved you to choose those words, but it's not the Holy Spirit.

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I never claimed to be perfect. I apologize.

Out of curiosity, does the same spirit move you to type false and inflammatory comments like:

• Catholics "pretend that their hands are cleaner and they merit Heaven more than others."
• "that guy in Rome issuing opinions in place of Christ."
• "nor some man with a title and a lot of jewelry behind some private wall."
• "you are worshipping a tyrant of rules by that claim, not the God of Love"
• "the well-dressed pointy-hat dude in Rome."
• "You prefer pointy hats and dead languages to absurd fashion statements."

Coke Bear said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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Coke Bear said:

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I'll type slowly for you.

---

Just this shot from you, as an example. There is a spirit which moved you to choose those words, but it's not the Holy Spirit.

---

I never claimed to be perfect. I apologize.

Out of curiosity, does the same spirit move you to type false and inflammatory comments like:

• Catholics "pretend that their hands are cleaner and they merit Heaven more than others."
• "that guy in Rome issuing opinions in place of Christ."
• "nor some man with a title and a lot of jewelry behind some private wall."
• "you are worshipping a tyrant of rules by that claim, not the God of Love"
• "the well-dressed pointy-hat dude in Rome."
• "You prefer pointy hats and dead languages to absurd fashion statements."

---

My tone, I apologize for. My point, however, is valid and your refusal to accept it provokes its repeating.

Please take the time to read this first post if you haven't yet

.

Remember to attend a good, Bible believing Church today:

Hebrews 10:25 NKJV
[25] not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching.

John 5:39-40 NKJV
[39] You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. [40] But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.

xfrodobagginsx said:

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John 5:39-40 NKJV
[39] You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. [40] But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.

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My brother in Christ, you just self-owned all of Evangelicalism there.

Christ founded a church, He didn't write a book.

You learn about Christ in the scriptures.

You meet Him in the ancient liturgy of the Church he founded.

Realitybites said:

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xfrodobagginsx said:

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John 5:39-40 NKJV
[39] You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. [40] But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.

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My brother in Christ, you just self-owned all of Evangelicalism there.

Christ founded a church, He didn't write a book.

You learn about Christ in the scriptures.

You meet Him in the ancient liturgy of the Church he founded.

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not where I meet Him but however it works for you.

Scripture taught me how to meet Him and taught me where to meet Him. The last step is doing what scripture taught.

Has anyone heard of or know how to get their hands on an English translation of the Mashafa Kidan?

The Church of Ethopia includes it in their Biblical Canon. I know nothing about its specific textual history, other than the extant manuscripts are in Ge'ez.

I've heard that it also goes by the name the Epistle of the Apostles, and purports to be a record of what Jesus taught in the forty days between his resurrection and ascension.

Realitybites said:

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xfrodobagginsx said:

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John 5:39-40 NKJV
[39] You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. [40] But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.

---

My brother in Christ, you just self-owned all of Evangelicalism there.

Christ founded a church, He didn't write a book.

You learn about Christ in the scriptures.

You meet Him in the ancient liturgy of the Church he founded.

---

What exactly does that mean? Self owned what? Christ write the Bible via the Holy Spirit. I know that you kearn about Christ in the Scriptures. The Church He founded is comprised of all genuine believers who place their trust in His Death and Resurrection to save them. I posted a Bible verse. Are you offended by that?

xfrodobagginsx said:

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Realitybites said:

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xfrodobagginsx said:

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John 5:39-40 NKJV
[39] You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. [40] But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.

---

My brother in Christ, you just self-owned all of Evangelicalism there.

Christ founded a church, He didn't write a book.

You learn about Christ in the scriptures.

You meet Him in the ancient liturgy of the Church he founded.

---

What exactly does that mean? Self owned what? Christ write the Bible via the Holy Spirit. I know that you kearn about Christ in the Scriptures. The Church He founded is comprised of all genuine believers who place their trust in His Death and Resurrection to save them. I posted a Bible verse. Are you offended by that?

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I'm not offended by it. But you posted it and completely missed that it can apply equally to the Jews who rejected Christ at the time it was written and modern day Biblicists who pit systematic theology against exegetic theology, individualize the gospel, and use personal interpretation to mask other agendas.

"Condemn no man for not thinking as you think. Let every man enjoy the full and free liberty of thinking for

himself. Let every man use his own judgment, since every man must give an account of himself to God."

John Wesley, founder of the United Methodist Church.

Waco1947 said:

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"Condemn no man for not thinking as you think. Let every man enjoy the full and free liberty of thinking for

himself. Let every man use his own judgment, since every man must give an account of himself to God."

John Wesley, founder of the United Methodist Church.

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Hopefully it is based on the Word of God as the source.

Waco1947 said:

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The Sermon on the Mount is a preview of how Christ will rule during the future Kingdom age.

Waco1947 said:

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That's because people back then weren't stupid enough to believe that men could become women.

Waco1947 said:

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what humans do is based on what humans believe..

So sometimes we need to be taught what to believe.

Narcissism and nihilism are a deathly combination.

4th and Inches said:

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Waco1947 said:

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what humans do is based on what humans believe..

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That's because it is a message to people who ALREADY believe and know the Gospel. It is for Kingdom age believers in the Kingdom Age in the future. It is not a Salvation Message. It is for those who are ALREADY saved.

After all the noise, an idea occurred to me about the problem between the OSAS and the GHW groups, about timing. But I will start with what I see as the summary of the argument about OSAS:

OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved) posits that Christ knows who accepts Him, and His Grace is fully efficacious. So if someone has been saved by Christ, that power of Salvation shall in no way fail. This is why there are verses in Scripture about the assurance of our place in Heaven.

The GHW (Gotta Have Works) group is concerned that this claim would allow someone to willfully sin against God and believe that his sin is forgiven in advance because of the OSAS promise. The idea that someone can be secured in Heaven to the point that he could deliberately sin is abhorrent on its face and cannot be countenanced. This group believes that we must regularly confess our sins and repent of them, and only when we are in a state of Grace from God because of His forgiveness. This is why there are verses in Scripture about forgiving someone 'seventy times seven', about regular prayer, and about working out our Salvation in 'fear and trembling'.

This creates an impasse between the two groups.

We humans live in a place of finite dimensions, and that includes the dimension of Time. God exists outside Time, and therefore has the ability to know the future because He is eternal, ergo timeless. Every one of us is known to Him, in toto, and so God knows who will and who will not be reconciled to Him. From this we can say that no one is allowed to sin without need of repentance, and the Bible makes clear that God may and does require additional things from people (note that Paul for example, who was guilty in Stephen's stoning, was himself the victim of stoning twice), but in the end God knows who will fall away, who will never truly follow Christ, and who will follow Christ and belong to Him, even if that person stumbles along the way.

It is our blinded position which causes us to not understand this point at times.

Today is Sunday. Find a good Bible believing Churxh and attend.

Oldbear83 said:

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After all the noise, an idea occurred to me about the problem between the OSAS and the GHW groups, about timing. But I will start with what I see as the summary of the argument about OSAS:

OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved) posits that Christ knows who accepts Him, and His Grace is fully efficacious. So if someone has been saved by Christ, that power of Salvation shall in no way fail. This is why there are verses in Scripture about the assurance of our place in Heaven.

The GHW (Gotta Have Works) group is concerned that this claim would allow someone to willfully sin against God and believe that his sin is forgiven in advance because of the OSAS promise. The idea that someone can be secured in Heaven to the point that he could deliberately sin is abhorrent on its face and cannot be countenanced. This group believes that we must regularly confess our sins and repent of them, and only when we are in a state of Grace from God because of His forgiveness. This is why there are verses in Scripture about forgiving someone 'seventy times seven', about regular prayer, and about working out our Salvation in 'fear and trembling'.

This creates an impasse between the two groups.

We humans live in a place of finite dimensions, and that includes the dimension of Time. God exists outside Time, and therefore has the ability to know the future because He is eternal, ergo timeless. Every one of us is known to Him, in toto, and so God knows who will and who will not be reconciled to Him. From this we can say that no one is allowed to sin without need of repentance, and the Bible makes clear that God may and does require additional things from people (note that Paul for example, who was guilty in Stephen's stoning, was himself the victim of stoning twice), but in the end God knows who will fall away, who will never truly follow Christ, and who will follow Christ and belong to Him, even if that person stumbles along the way.

It is our blinded position which causes us to not understand this point at times.

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Except that's not really the division. You're conflating two debates.

The first debate is whether salvation must bear fruit, or if a simple decision for Christ + a prayer is consistent with Sola Fide. Radical evangelicals like BTD take the second position, that *expressing* your faith, not *enacting* your faith is sufficient for salvation. Hence their constant use of the thief on the cross as normative for Christian life.

The second debate is OSAS vs You Can Lose Your Salvation.

The criticism the GHW group, as you call it, has for the OSAS group is that although you can't lose your salvation in the same way you misplace your keys, people who have repented and become disciples of Christ can and do change their minds and walk away.

This is seen in John 6:66 "From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more." These people who left because of the teaching about the real presence in communion aren't identified as false disciples or false converts. They were real disciples who ran into a teaching they couldn't handle and walked away from Jesus. They lost the opportunity for salvation, because they dropped out of the race and never reached the finish line.

The OSAS group is reduced to saying they were never disciples to begin with despite the Bible calling them disciples.