Limited IQ Redneck in PU said:

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https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12340403/

Laws that prohibit absolutely the practice of abortion are a relatively recent development. In the early Roman Catholic church, abortion was permitted for male fetuses in the first 40 days of pregnancy and for female fetuses in the first 80-90 days. Not until 1588 did Pope Sixtus V declare all abortion murder, with excommunication as the punishment. Only 3 years later a new pope found the absolute sanction unworkable and again allowed early abortions. 300 years would pass before the Catholic church under Pius IX again declared all abortion murder. This standard, declared in 1869, remains the official position of the church, reaffirmed by the current pope.


I believe thee was a period of time when the point of animation was important in determining whether is was considered murder by the Church.

However, I will defer to your much better understanding of Catholicism and abandon any more posts on abortion. I had a tough situation once and have a 48 year old daughter to prove our decision. I still think a woman has the final say about her body and whats in it.

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Sorry for the delay in getting back with you. I noticed few red flags in reading this blurb so I contacted a Catholic apologist to confirm my suspicions. First the article has some connection with Planned Parenthood. Second, I know the Didache, which was written late-1st/early-2nd century prohibits abortion.

Anyway, here is his response when I questioned him about the validity of this article:

Quote:

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Thanks for the question. For the most part the statements are somewhat true. However, what those statements fail to say is that while churchmen did not always recognize the child in the womb to be a human being from the moment of conception, it always considered the murder of a child in the womb to be abortion. We see this clearly laid out in the Didache (the first century document on early Church practices) which states, "you shall not murder a child by abortion nor kill that which is begotten." This ARTICLE outlines the Church's perpetual prohibition on abortion.

It was not until the 19th century that biological science discovered that a human being comes into existence from the moment of conception. Since that time, the Church has taught that the termination of a pregnancy from conception forward is the murder of an innocent child in the womb. Prior to that there were various points in time during the gestation period that a child was believed to be a living human being. For much of history, this was thought to be the moment of "quickening" (when the mother first feels the child move). Even so, abortion was not allowed at any stage.

What has changed is NOT the Church's position on abortion that has always been considered murder of an innocent child in the womb. What has changed is the understanding of the point in time one becomes a human being that could be aborted. We can thank the development of modern biological science for helping us understand when human life begins. The Church has always taught that terminating an innocent human life is murder and now we know definitively when that life actually comes into existence.

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Coke Bear said:

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Limited IQ Redneck in PU said:

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https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12340403/

Laws that prohibit absolutely the practice of abortion are a relatively recent development. In the early Roman Catholic church, abortion was permitted for male fetuses in the first 40 days of pregnancy and for female fetuses in the first 80-90 days. Not until 1588 did Pope Sixtus V declare all abortion murder, with excommunication as the punishment. Only 3 years later a new pope found the absolute sanction unworkable and again allowed early abortions. 300 years would pass before the Catholic church under Pius IX again declared all abortion murder. This standard, declared in 1869, remains the official position of the church, reaffirmed by the current pope.


I believe thee was a period of time when the point of animation was important in determining whether is was considered murder by the Church.

However, I will defer to your much better understanding of Catholicism and abandon any more posts on abortion. I had a tough situation once and have a 48 year old daughter to prove our decision. I still think a woman has the final say about her body and whats in it.

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Sorry for the delay in getting back with you. I noticed few red flags in reading this blurb so I contacted a Catholic apologist to confirm my suspicions. First the article has some connection with Planned Parenthood. Second, I know the Didache, which was written late-1st/early-2nd century prohibits abortion.

Anyway, here is his response when I questioned him about the validity of this article:

Quote:

---

Thanks for the question. For the most part the statements are somewhat true. However, what those statements fail to say is that while churchmen did not always recognize the child in the womb to be a human being from the moment of conception, it always considered the murder of a child in the womb to be abortion. We see this clearly laid out in the Didache (the first century document on early Church practices) which states, "you shall not murder a child by abortion nor kill that which is begotten." This ARTICLE outlines the Church's perpetual prohibition on abortion.

It was not until the 19th century that biological science discovered that a human being comes into existence from the moment of conception. Since that time, the Church has taught that the termination of a pregnancy from conception forward is the murder of an innocent child in the womb. Prior to that there were various points in time during the gestation period that a child was believed to be a living human being. For much of history, this was thought to be the moment of "quickening" (when the mother first feels the child move). Even so, abortion was not allowed at any stage.

What has changed is NOT the Church's position on abortion that has always been considered murder of an innocent child in the womb. What has changed is the understanding of the point in time one becomes a human being that could be aborted. We can thank the development of modern biological science for helping us understand when human life begins. The Church has always taught that terminating an innocent human life is murder and now we know definitively when that life actually comes into existence.

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Thank you coke. I always enjoy your posts

Texas, with 30 million residents and 10% of the women of reproductive age in the nation, used to see about 4,400 abortions a month.

Now, five. https://t.co/Qo3TzPaSx3

— WFAA (@wfaa) June 25, 2024

[Despite this incremental improvement, the Methodist social principles on abortion even at their best were a bit of a muddled mess. Of course, that is true of public opinion about abortion in general and is what you would expect of compromise language written for people with divergent views.

This brings us to the newly revised GOP platform in which the pro-life plank is, if not quite gutted, the most equivocal it has been since 1976, when it truly was a compromise between Republicans on different sides of the abortion debate, after the convention fight between Gerald Ford and Ronald Reagan. Ford and Jimmy Carter went into the general election with relatively nuanced positions on abortion by today's standards, with the parties not really sorting on the issue until Reagan won four years later.

The former President Donald Trump recognizes that Democrats have successfully branded any federal legislation on abortion post-Roe as a "national ban" or "federal ban" on abortion. This is true even when the public supports the details of the actual bill in question, which is a problem because they do oppose a blanket "national ban."

Trump is eager to avoid this problem. He therefore wishes to avoid federal legislation on the topic and rebrand the Democrats as extremist defenders of late-term abortion. I think Trump is generally correct as a matter of short-term political strategy and that abortion lawmaking cannot be as divorced from public opinion as judicially imposed abortion policy was for nearly 50 years of Roe.]

https://www.theamericanconservative.com/gop-can-learn-abortion-lesson-from-methodist-infighting/

Far right Republicans and Donald Trump still don't get it. Trump's initial comments saying six weeks is too restrictive as far as abortions in Florida was the correct stance. Apparently he pulled a Kamala and has walked his comments back.

Also, it is not the government's (taxpayers) job to pay for IVF procedures. Nor the insurance companies unless they choose to. This is every bit as bad as the govenment (taxpayers) paying for abortions. Enough of the damn pandering and balancing acts. Am sick and tired of this flip flopping crap from Harris and Trump!

KaiBear said:

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RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

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KaiBear said:

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LIB,MR BEARS said:

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Limited IQ Redneck in PU said:

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If you believe an acorn is a tree then you cant justify killing the product of a rape or incest etc. Its not the acorns fault.

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If you believe an unborn baby is a baby, you can't justify an abortion.

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Disagree

There are situations were the mothers life is at risk .

Have known 2 women who were told they would die giving birth .

They both chose to give birth anyway and survived . But it was their option .

Rape …..the mother should have the option as well .

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My wife's doctor told her a third child would kill her. She went ahead and had her tubes tied.

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My late mother in law said no to an abortion, put everything in God's hands and gave birth to a beautiful baby girl .

I married that beauty baby girl 25 years later .

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Awesome

J.R. said:

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KaiBear said:

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RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

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KaiBear said:

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LIB,MR BEARS said:

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Limited IQ Redneck in PU said:

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If you believe an acorn is a tree then you cant justify killing the product of a rape or incest etc. Its not the acorns fault.

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If you believe an unborn baby is a baby, you can't justify an abortion.

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Disagree

There are situations were the mothers life is at risk .

Have known 2 women who were told they would die giving birth .

They both chose to give birth anyway and survived . But it was their option .

Rape …..the mother should have the option as well .

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My wife's doctor told her a third child would kill her. She went ahead and had her tubes tied.

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My late mother in law said no to an abortion, put everything in God's hands and gave birth to a beautiful baby girl .

I married that beauty baby girl 25 years later .

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Awesome

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Thank you.

My gal turns 70 in a couple of weeks. Taking her to Ireland shortly thereafter for a 10 day tour.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.foxnews.com/politics/pro-lifers-blast-trump-betrayal-shifting-abortion-stance-answer-florida-amendment-4.amp


https://www.google.com/amp/s/thehill.com/homenews/campaign/4858001-adam-schiff-donald-trump-abortion/amp/

“My top issue is abortion” https://t.co/Er3EG8w8EE pic.twitter.com/0t4VGLVz1e

— Sulla (@ichthys30) October 21, 2024

Susan B. Anthony gave a speech on March 14, 1875 where abortion was listed with infanticide as among the negative consequences of the “evils” perpetrated by men. Aka she believed abortion was a tool of the patriarchy. https://t.co/NI1zf9yMQs

— Laura W. (@BumpstockBarbie) October 29, 2024

The legacy media lied to you
pic.twitter.com/TuylN2IqYi

— Elon Musk (@elonmusk) November 8, 2024

LIB,MR BEARS said:

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RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

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Rarely if ever have I said we should give Democrats what they want. In this case, it makes perfect sense. For all of us. We should throw in a free $100 Visa gift card for Progressive Liberal "women" to abort their unborn children.

I post this with the joy of a new grandson that is two months old. He is truly a gift from God.I can promise he will always be my grandson and not suddenly convert to being my granddaughter.

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Does 47 know you got into his whine?

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FIFY

Yeah... this OP aged like fine milk.
The dems did everything they could to make the election about "reproductive rights"... they even thought they won because of it.
Turns out that they average American isn't so interested in protecting baby killers.

I know the OP was a joke... I'm really talking about the title and some of the pro-baby killing comments.

Post-Dobbs Pro-Lifers:

[The New Yorker did well to hire away Emma Green from The Atlantic. I don't know what Green's faith commitments are, or if she has any at all. But she is a fair-minded observer of religion in America, and I usually learn something from her writing.

She has a new piece in her magazine about how the pro-life movement is moving after Roe's being overturned. Lo, the news is very good, if you ask me! The movement is shifting its emphasis away from defeating Roe (mission accomplished) to creating a holistic culture of life. Excerpts:

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Although conservatives have long emphasized the importance of family, they've also fought aggressively against the kind of expanded government spending that Vance was suggesting. Even Walz seemed taken aback. "I don't think Senator Vance and I are that far apart," he said. Vance's ideas are part of a tectonic shift that has been under way for a while in certain conservative circles-an intellectual vanguard that has variously been called the New Right, national conservatism, or the realignment. Players in this scene, such as Vance and the Missouri senator Josh Hawley, have advanced a vision for economic policy-raising tariffs, cracking down on overly powerful corporations-that puts them largely at odds with the G.O.P. establishment.

Their underlying motivation, however, is deeply conservative: they believe that these policies serve the traditional family, and will make it easier for parents to afford a house, hold down a middle-class job, have lots of kids, go to church, and not get divorced. A former Trump Administration official called it "the family turn": an attempt to reorient Republican politics around what's good for parents and their children, even if that requires the Party to embrace some policies it once considered anathema."My partywe've got to do so much better of a job at earning the American people's trust back on this issue, where they frankly just don't trust us," Vance said in the debate.

For two generations, members of the pro-life movement were oriented around the political and legal goal of overturning Roe. Along the way, they lost the culture. The next Trump Administration will be staffed with people who wish to change that. "In 2025, there is a far more disciplined, organized, and politically and intellectually equipped cadre of people who are attuned to the realignment moment who are going to be going in," another former Trump official told me. As Brown, the Ethics and Public Policy Center fellow, observed, "Pro-life is out. Pro-family is in."

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Fantastic! See, this is one reason I'm tempted to move to Washington: to see and to write about how all this plays out. More Green:

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As Republicans prepare to retake power in Washington, there will be significant jostling as different parts of the coalition vie for influence. Tim Carney, a scholar at the American Enterprise Institute, described talking about family policy at a recent conference. "One of the questions I got was 'How does subsidizing family fit in with conservatism, which basically says that it should be an individual responsibility to raise a family, not a government responsibility?' " he said. According to Carney, that attitude is shifting: "The younger crowd of conservatives doesn't have the instinctual libertarianism that Reagan-era and Bush-era conservatives do on these questions." One example is Oren Cass, the founder of American Compass, a think tank that wants to end the free-market fundamentalism of the G.O.P. "The decision to form a family and raise children . . . is the basic obligation of life and citizenship," he wrote last year.

A capitalism that is neutral about that "has no future, and does not deserve one." Compass is something of a revolving door for Senate staffers and potential future White House aides who are interested in family policy. Staffers in the offices of Vance and Rubio spent time with the organization. Jonathan Berry, the former Trump official who worked on Project 2025, is a Compass adviser. He is committed to the notion that the government can, and should, try to shape people's decisions around marriage and kidsand that it can do so creatively. "If you care about life issues, you ought to care about the supply of marriageable men," he told me. That is "affected very heavily by education policy and trade policy and all kinds of other public policies that you don't think of, conventionally, as social policy."

… And yet Levin sees family policy as the almost inevitable conclusion of the pro-life movement's time in the political wilderness. Pro-life groups are realizing that they need to help people imagine a world without abortion. "In that sense, it's not simply electoralit's much more cultural," he said. "They have to show that, in saying they want a world where children are welcome and parents are valued, they have to mean it."

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Green visits an enclave of the new pro-lifers out in Cheverly, Maryland, a DC suburb. Excerpt:

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The women of Cheverly aren't particularly invested in the trad-wife aesthetic, except maybe for one woman, who lives across the street from Wagley and makes all her own bread. ("She's German," another woman offered, by way of explanation.) But they do reject the reigning paradigms of American parenting-especially the norms of intensive parenting among the highly educated professional classes. Wagley described the path of the "customized child" in D.C. and its suburbs: dual-income families who move to northern Virginia and have one or two kids, whom they groom to go to an Ivy. (Wagley herself went to Harvard.) In a place like Cheverly, there might not be tons of money floating around, since the sort of women who are drawn there might go in and out of the workforce, or want to work part time.

They might be professionally successful, and they might also value their community and family more highly than their job. During our chat, a neighbor texted a group of Cheverly women, including Wagley, that she was stepping out and asked them to watch her sleeping baby via a digital monitor while she was gone. "That's what's countercultural about Cheverly," Wagley said. "We're having kids in a different way."

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Crunchy cons! The Benedict Option (which Green mentions in her reporting.) Never thought I'd live to see the day when my tribe was rising. Might it really be morning in America? At least a little bit? How on earth is pessimistic Rod Dreher going to cope?!]

End the American Holocaust!!!