Doc Holliday said:

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This is an open post for the “Russia is losing and is finished in two weeks” crowd.

You may post your apologies.

— Cernovich (@Cernovich) November 11, 2023

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Super informative...

This is the great tragedy and romance of the Ukraine-Russia war. It's a civil war in all but name - both parties are brutalized for their dream of Homeland.

Iraq and Afghanistan weren't like that at all for Americans, and the US Empire is all the more wretched for it. https://t.co/dkMfZ9NOUt

— ib (@Indian_Bronson) November 4, 2022

quash said:

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whiterock said:

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quash said:

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whiterock said:

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quash said:

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whiterock said:

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quash said:

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whiterock said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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whiterock said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Harrison Bergeron said:

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Just curious ... asking for a unicorn I know .. who can make the affirmative case that artificially funding Ukraine's economy serves what national interests of the U.S.?

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Maybe I am a Reagan Cold War guy, but I agreed with Scott and Haley last night on Ukraine. Anything we do to weaken Putin is good for US.

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Reagan couldn't disagree more. Biden is undoing everything that he accomplished.

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Reagan would stand by and let Putin invade Ukraine? Grenada/Iran-Contra Ron would have said, we are out let Russia have Ukraine? After he worked to get Ukrainian independence. Yeah.

I served why Ronnie was President. You know how many times we (82nd Abn) got ready to deploy and sit at Pope Air Field so the satellites could get a good look? You think he was bluffing? I don't, the officers and AF personnel managing our aircraft didn't. Sitting in a stick on a tarmac for 8 hours is no fun. This happened that I can remember with Libya and Poland. Every EDRE was a satellite opportunity to show strength and he used it. Reagan also supplies Afghan Rebels and Solidarity in Poland. Reagan would not stand by and let Putin do this.

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He wouldn't have to. Reagan never would have put us in this situation to begin with. Read up on his dealings with Gorbachev and how he worked for peace despite the skepticism of his advisers.

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....and against the advice of his advisors proceeded with SDI, walked out of a summit in Reykjavik, stood in front of the Brandenburg Gate and demanded "Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!"

Reagan pushed the Soviets harder than any POTUS before him or since.

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He believed in peace through strength. There are too many people who can only understand half the equation.

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Exactly. We denied Ukraine the means to adequate deterrence. Look what happened.

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Ooo, so close.

We denied Ukraine their elected president and installed a thug instead.

But you have never, ever, even shown what direct American interest is involved in this war. Are you getting something out of this?

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LOL there you stand, "always wrong, never in doubt...."

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Wrong about what? "**** the EU"? The thug? The lack of a direct American interest? Try to be specific.

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the clear national interest has been laid out many, many times. You ignore it because it guts your case.

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You've laid out arguments for indirect interests. You haven't come close to elucidating a direct American interest.

Because you don't have one

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NATO is a "direct interest," is it not?

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Not until a mutual defense obligation is triggered. Is that what you'd like to see?

I would not.

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you are in a mutual defense pact but have zero interest in developments that affect that pact other than direct attack.

Did I state that correctly?

Are y'all watching this?

NEW: #Russian state media released and later retracted reports about the "regrouping" of Russian forces on the east (left) bank of #Kherson Oblast to positions further east of the #Dnipro River, suggesting that the Russian command and/or Russian state media apparatus has failed… pic.twitter.com/CXyfoV8wPH

— Institute for the Study of War (@TheStudyofWar) November 14, 2023

whiterock said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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whiterock said:

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quash said:

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whiterock said:

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quash said:

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whiterock said:

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quash said:

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whiterock said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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whiterock said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Harrison Bergeron said:

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Just curious ... asking for a unicorn I know .. who can make the affirmative case that artificially funding Ukraine's economy serves what national interests of the U.S.?

---

Maybe I am a Reagan Cold War guy, but I agreed with Scott and Haley last night on Ukraine. Anything we do to weaken Putin is good for US.

---

Reagan couldn't disagree more. Biden is undoing everything that he accomplished.

---

Reagan would stand by and let Putin invade Ukraine? Grenada/Iran-Contra Ron would have said, we are out let Russia have Ukraine? After he worked to get Ukrainian independence. Yeah.

I served why Ronnie was President. You know how many times we (82nd Abn) got ready to deploy and sit at Pope Air Field so the satellites could get a good look? You think he was bluffing? I don't, the officers and AF personnel managing our aircraft didn't. Sitting in a stick on a tarmac for 8 hours is no fun. This happened that I can remember with Libya and Poland. Every EDRE was a satellite opportunity to show strength and he used it. Reagan also supplies Afghan Rebels and Solidarity in Poland. Reagan would not stand by and let Putin do this.

---

He wouldn't have to. Reagan never would have put us in this situation to begin with. Read up on his dealings with Gorbachev and how he worked for peace despite the skepticism of his advisers.

---

....and against the advice of his advisors proceeded with SDI, walked out of a summit in Reykjavik, stood in front of the Brandenburg Gate and demanded "Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!"

Reagan pushed the Soviets harder than any POTUS before him or since.

---

He believed in peace through strength. There are too many people who can only understand half the equation.

---

Exactly. We denied Ukraine the means to adequate deterrence. Look what happened.

---

Ooo, so close.

We denied Ukraine their elected president and installed a thug instead.

But you have never, ever, even shown what direct American interest is involved in this war. Are you getting something out of this?

---

LOL there you stand, "always wrong, never in doubt...."

---

Wrong about what? "**** the EU"? The thug? The lack of a direct American interest? Try to be specific.

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the clear national interest has been laid out many, many times. You ignore it because it guts your case.

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You've laid out arguments for indirect interests. You haven't come close to elucidating a direct American interest.

Because you don't have one

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NATO is a "direct interest," is it not?

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NATO is not threatened or attacked.

It's kind of like saying I might have to shoot someone if they cross onto my property line..and then like saying actually if they cross into my neighborhood at all I get to shoot them

Russia is in the neighborhood…but they are not on our property

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So, you have no problem with Russia just taking Ukraine? China taking Taiwan, Viet Nam? Not our issue. Russian wants Cuba, they are just in our neighborhood. We have no agreement to prevent it??? Venezula, sure.

As long as it doesn't inconvenience you, they can do whatever they want.

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Well…We almost fought a nuclear war with the USSR over Cuba.

And we did it because we would never accept Soviet troops so close to our borders.

Of course modern Russia will never accept NATO troops in eastern Ukraine.

And of course Cuba was not a major port for the USA navy….like Crimea is for the Russian fleet.

And Soviet troops could not drive from Cuba to Miami.

American-NATO troops in Ukraine could roll right to Moscow by highway

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You just undermined your own position (and that of Quash & others).

WE have no troops in Ukraine.

If NATO is justified in keeping Soviets out of Cuba (proximity to US borders), why would NATO not have the exact same interest in keeping Russia out of Ukraine (proximity to borders of 4 member states?

"We can't afford it" is a valid reason.
"We have no interest" is inane.

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1. According to my Army Major buddy we in fact 100% do have special ops inside Ukraine helping to direct the war.

So I think you are incorrect on that. I think you mean we don't have a large troop deployment…yet

And again.

2. If Ukraine was a such a major vital strategic interest for the USA our policy planners up until 1995 would not have been telling us that everything east of the Bug river was NOT essential

Cuba is vital to the USA

Crimea is vital to Russia

Ukraine is NOT vital to the USA

3. And how is it that those 4 NATO member states are next to Ukraine? Because we expanded NATO post 1995

Quote:

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WE have no troops in Ukraine.

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We 100 percent have special ops in Ukraine AND Gaza and they have seen combat in the latter theater.

Maybe one of these days we will get back to requiring a declaration of war before putting the military in harms way.

Realitybites said:

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Quote:

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WE have no troops in Ukraine.

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We 100 percent have special ops in Ukraine AND Gaza and they have seen combat in the latter theater.

Maybe one of these days we will get back to requiring a declaration of war before putting the military in harms way.

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US Army SF is in 133 Nations, of course they are there. That is not the use of "troops" in this context. Those guys volunteer and know they are going to do this, that is the job. Anytime you hear "advisors" it is SF, they spend most of their careers somewhere else.

LOL 🤡🇺🇦🤡 https://t.co/DY4B171sr8

— James Lindsay, trending figure (@ConceptualJames) November 15, 2023

Wow what a clip https://t.co/238bw7D4AM

— Jack Poso 🇺🇸 (@JackPosobiec) November 15, 2023

Realitybites said:

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Quote:

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WE have no troops in Ukraine.

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Maybe one of these days we will get back to requiring a declaration of war before putting the military in harms way.

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Unlikely

Congress has been delegating their powers to the Executive Branch for decades.

a week old, but solid assessment of the Ukrainian foothold on the east bank of the Dnieper at Kherson.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/hints-of-a-military-breakthrough-for-ukraine-overshadowed-by-concerns-about-the-future-1.7024150

CBC is hardly an unbiased source. Like MSNBC, reality is usually 180 degrees out of phase with whatever they are promoting. Still, they do get a few things right:

"With hopes of a significant breakthrough by Ukrainian forces during their much-touted summer counter-offensive long dashed,"

"... modest, a few square kilometers at best..."

In other words, the Ukrainian military's equivalent to GOP Congressional show votes. The idea that this is going to turn into a push to Crimea is laughable.

Ukraine is now a fascist client state of the US. After canceling the election, all the democratic fig leaves that our deep state had for Victoria Nuland's War are gone. Perhaps they will recycle Baby Bush's money line from 2008: "You have to destroy democracy to save democracy."

Redbrickbear said:

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Quote:

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Quote:

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Well…We almost fought a nuclear war with the USSR over Cuba.

And we did it because we would never accept Soviet troops so close to our borders.

Of course modern Russia will never accept NATO troops in eastern Ukraine.

And of course Cuba was not a major port for the USA navy….like Crimea is for the Russian fleet.

And Soviet troops could not drive from Cuba to Miami.

American-NATO troops in Ukraine could roll right to Moscow by highway

---

You just undermined your own position (and that of Quash & others).

WE have no troops in Ukraine.

If NATO is justified in keeping Soviets out of Cuba (proximity to US borders), why would NATO not have the exact same interest in keeping Russia out of Ukraine (proximity to borders of 4 member states?

"We can't afford it" is a valid reason.
"We have no interest" is inane.

---

1. According to my Army Major buddy we in fact 100% do have special ops inside Ukraine helping to direct the war.

So I think you are incorrect on that. I think you mean we don't have a large troop deployment…yet

And again.
Well, yes. We have no combat forces in Ukraine. That is the standard. Yet you cherry pick every possible alternative to conflate any presence of a single US soldier or rifle to build a template that we have justified the Russian invasion of Ukraine. By your standard, we have invaded almost every country in the world. (Defense Attache offices in embassies, military training missions (MilMish), military observers, military aid, etc...) All of those things are milennia-old and not considered acts of war, or any more threatening to third-country nations than diplomatic presence (as they are typically considered part of diplomatic relationships.) I would suggest we've had a continuous S/F presence in Ukraine since 2014, that much of what the world has lauded as Ukrainian pluck & brilliance was in fact trained & practiced with help of foreign military observers. I have no doubt we have a MilMish unit in Kyiv that observes and advises the UKR general staff on strategy and tactics, logistics from produrement thru deployment and maintenance. None of that is a strategic or tactical threat to Russia.

2. If Ukraine was a such a major vital strategic interest for the USA our policy planners up until 1995 would not have been telling us that everything east of the Bug river was NOT essential.

Cuba is vital to the USA
Again, we see a very sloppy argument. You say Cuba is vital (implicitly setting it up as an analogue for your argument), that we have no business poking around in Ukraine, when it in fact the plain history and current status mostly undermine your argument. We allow Cuba to remain part of orbits hostile to the USA, do we not? Why do we allow it to purchase weapons from nations hostile to us....practice diplomacy hostile to us...purchasing Russian/Chinese weapons systems, training terrorist groups....doing observer missions in conflicts which threaten our interests....etc.... Do you not think Russia/China has military advisors, trainers, observers, etc...in Cuba? Do you not think those two nations have taught courses on how to respond to US invasion of Cuba? Do you not think they will have observers/advisors on the ground if/when we do invade Cuba? You are simply not being serious here.

Crimea is vital to Russia
Yes, it is, at least in the Russian mind. But your argument must accept that importance is not in context of "essential to defense of the Russian homeland," but rather "essential to the projection of Russian power." So if they lose control of it, it would have comparable impact on the defense of Mother Russia to the US loss of basing rights in Diego Garcia = no real threat to Moscow (or WDC), just a sharply reduced ability to deploy troops to protect Russian (US) interest in areas far removed from the homeland. More to the point, Crimea is NOT Russia. They do not have a right to own it. They have to hold it against all comers, to include the nation which holds internationally recognized sovereignty rights - Ukraine. All of the foregoing facts means = we (Nato) have a clear interest (multiple levels) in removing Russia from Crimea if they are not too weak to hold it. And right now, their control is in serious jeopardy.

You should be very wary of the latent historical justification for your argument.. Damascus once controlled Madrid. Are we to craft our policy in Europe and Middle East premised on the notion that Syria has some level of right to do so again? (when reality is, the question is merely a power dynamic... Can they? Uh, no. If Russia cannot hold Crimea, then Russia is not entitled to it.)

Ukraine is NOT vital to the USA
Almost always, and certainly uniformly when leveled by policy critics, that statement is uttered to mean "no interest at all." That is just flatly false. By virtue of being a member state in Nato, we do have a strong interest in what happens in Ukraine, considerably strong enough to justify the very modest expenditures of support we have extended to the Ukrainian government. It is our boys & girls (both of my two, in particular), who are going to have to fight if Russia moves eastward and creates instability in Eastern Europe.* The idea that it is completely irrelevant to any NATO nation whether Russian armies are stationed in Belgorad or Odessa is the most strategically inane argument one could make (yet here you are making it.)
*next summer, my daughter assumes her first command = a logistics unit dedicated to projection of US combat units into Eastern Europe in a future Russian conflict. The best way to keep her twiddling her thumbs is for Ukraine to regain all its territory from Russia.

3. And how is it that those 4 NATO member states are next to Ukraine? Because we expanded NATO post 1995.
A very wise decision.

---

Policy critics are defacto making an utterly nonsensical argument that we should allow the USSR to collapse, rebuild itself, then reconstruct the Warsaw Pact....that we have absolutely no interest whatsoever spending a penny to prevent such from happening.

I mean.....I'm trying to be diplomatic here. But don't be a dumbass just because you're angry about budgets and borders.

Realitybites said:

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CBC is hardly an unbiased source. Like MSNBC, reality is usually 180 degrees out of phase with whatever they are promoting. Still, they do get a few things right:

"With hopes of a significant breakthrough by Ukrainian forces during their much-touted summer counter-offensive long dashed,"

"... modest, a few square kilometers at best..."

In other words, the Ukrainian military's equivalent to GOP Congressional show votes. The idea that this is going to turn into a push to Crimea is laughable.

Ukraine is now a fascist client state of the US. After canceling the election, all the democratic fig leaves that our deep state had for Victoria Nuland's War are gone. Perhaps they will recycle Baby Bush's money line from 2008: "You have to destroy democracy to save democracy."

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beware the genetic fallacy = you did not cite a single error.

Neither did I or the article hype anything. I have mentioned a couple of times over the last few weeks of a change in the Kherson sector. It is significant. It will require Russian redeployments of assets and personnel. It's part of what I cited early on would be the Ukrainian effort to present Russia with a broad array of bad choices. That Ukraine is able to do that is significant. They have stopped all Russian advances in the east (at enormously disproportionate cost to Russia...shooting gallery stuff). They forced Russian redeployments in the Bakhmut and Orkiv fronts. And they've forced redeployments of the Ukrainian Navy. Where will the next one be?

In wars of attrition, things happen very slowly, then suddenly.

whiterock said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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Quote:

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Quote:

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Well…We almost fought a nuclear war with the USSR over Cuba.

And we did it because we would never accept Soviet troops so close to our borders.

Of course modern Russia will never accept NATO troops in eastern Ukraine.

And of course Cuba was not a major port for the USA navy….like Crimea is for the Russian fleet.

And Soviet troops could not drive from Cuba to Miami.

American-NATO troops in Ukraine could roll right to Moscow by highway

---

You just undermined your own position (and that of Quash & others).

WE have no troops in Ukraine.

If NATO is justified in keeping Soviets out of Cuba (proximity to US borders), why would NATO not have the exact same interest in keeping Russia out of Ukraine (proximity to borders of 4 member states?

"We can't afford it" is a valid reason.
"We have no interest" is inane.

---

1. According to my Army Major buddy we in fact 100% do have special ops inside Ukraine helping to direct the war.

So I think you are incorrect on that. I think you mean we don't have a large troop deployment…yet

And again.
Well, yes. We have no combat forces in Ukraine. That is the standard. Yet you cherry pick every possible alternative to conflate any presence of a single US soldier or rifle to build a template that we have justified the Russian invasion of Ukraine. By your standard, we have invaded almost every country in the world. (Defense Attache offices in embassies, military training missions (MilMish), military observers, military aid, etc...) All of those things are milennia-old and not considered acts of war, or any more threatening to third-country nations than diplomatic presence (as they are typically considered part of diplomatic relationships.) I would suggest we've had a continuous S/F presence in Ukraine since 2014, that much of what the world has lauded as Ukrainian pluck & brilliance was in fact trained & practiced with help of foreign military observers. I have no doubt we have a MilMish unit in Kyiv that observes and advises the UKR general staff on strategy and tactics, logistics from produrement thru deployment and maintenance. None of that is a strategic or tactical threat to Russia.

2. If Ukraine was a such a major vital strategic interest for the USA our policy planners up until 1995 would not have been telling us that everything east of the Bug river was NOT essential.

Cuba is vital to the USA
Again, we see a very sloppy argument. You say Cuba is vital (implicitly setting it up as an analogue for your argument), that we have no business poking around in Ukraine, when it in fact the plain history and current status mostly undermine your argument. We allow Cuba to remain part of orbits hostile to the USA, do we not? Why do we allow it to purchase weapons from nations hostile to us....practice diplomacy hostile to us...purchasing Russian/Chinese weapons systems, training terrorist groups....doing observer missions in conflicts which threaten our interests....etc.... Do you not think Russia/China has military advisors, trainers, observers, etc...in Cuba? Do you not think those two nations have taught courses on how to respond to US invasion of Cuba? Do you not think they will have observers/advisors on the ground if/when we do invade Cuba? You are simply not being serious here.

Crimea is vital to Russia
Yes, it is, at least in the Russian mind. But your argument must accept that importance is not in context of "essential to defense of the Russian homeland," but rather "essential to the projection of Russian power." So if they lose control of it, it would have comparable impact on the defense of Mother Russia to the US loss of basing rights in Diego Garcia = no real threat to Moscow (or WDC), just a sharply reduced ability to deploy troops to protect Russian (US) interest in areas far removed from the homeland. More to the point, Crimea is NOT Russia. They do not have a right to own it. They have to hold it against all comers, to include the nation which holds internationally recognized sovereignty rights - Ukraine. All of the foregoing facts means = we (Nato) have a clear interest (multiple levels) in removing Russia from Crimea if they are not too weak to hold it. And right now, their control is in serious jeopardy.

You should be very wary of the latent historical justification for your argument.. Damascus once controlled Madrid. Are we to craft our policy in Europe and Middle East premised on the notion that Syria has some level of right to do so again? (when reality is, the question is merely a power dynamic... Can they? Uh, no. If Russia cannot hold Crimea, then Russia is not entitled to it.)

Ukraine is NOT vital to the USA
Almost always, and certainly uniformly when leveled by policy critics, that statement is uttered to mean "no interest at all." That is just flatly false. By virtue of being a member state in Nato, we do have a strong interest in what happens in Ukraine, considerably strong enough to justify the very modest expenditures of support we have extended to the Ukrainian government. It is our boys & girls (both of my two, in particular), who are going to have to fight if Russia moves eastward and creates instability in Eastern Europe.* The idea that it is completely irrelevant to any NATO nation whether Russian armies are stationed in Belgorad or Odessa is the most strategically inane argument one could make (yet here you are making it.)
*next summer, my daughter assumes her first command = a logistics unit dedicated to projection of US combat units into Eastern Europe in a future Russian conflict. The best way to keep her twiddling her thumbs is for Ukraine to regain all its territory from Russia.

3. And how is it that those 4 NATO member states are next to Ukraine? Because we expanded NATO post 1995.
A very wise decision.

---

Policy critics are defacto making an utterly nonsensical argument that we should allow the USSR to collapse, rebuild itself, then reconstruct the Warsaw Pact....that we have absolutely no interest whatsoever spending a penny to prevent such from happening.

I mean.....I'm trying to be diplomatic here. But don't be a dumbass just because you're angry about budgets and borders.

---

Talk about logical fallacies.

Who said we are going to let a new USSR come about?

Who said anything about a new Warsaw pact?

No one is getting 15 nations back together in a new USSR.

You can't have a new Warsaw pact because East Germany does not even exist anymore as a country and Poland-Romania-Hungary are all in NATO

That is some serious hyperbole….I am only assume that in your world view the Cold War never ended and it's still 1975

Western media is saying it's over and throwing Zelensky under the bus as the fall guy

Ukraine got destroyed for nothing. The latest cope is "they slowed down Russia" "they made them unable to go forward".

whiterock said:

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Policy critics are defacto making an utterly nonsensical argument that we should allow the USSR to collapse, rebuild itself, then reconstruct the Warsaw Pact....that we have absolutely no interest whatsoever spending a penny to prevent such from happening.

---

Not even the Russians want to rebuild the USSR.

That would be obvious if you followed their domestic policy to any degree.

Is the Ukrainian war over ?

Amazing how media coverage in Ukraine has practically evaporated since Hamas massacred 1400 Israelis.last month .

Time for another 100 billion to be sent to Ukraine to generate some fresh headlines .

KaiBear said:

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Is the Ukrainian war over ?

Amazing how media coverage in Ukraine has practically evaporated since Hamas massacred 1400 Israelis.last month .

Time for another 100 billion to be sent to Ukraine to generate some fresh headlines .

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It was literally the most important thing on earth…until it wasn't.

I guess the Hollywood celebrities are not flying over there to meet Zelensky anymore

Redbrickbear said:

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KaiBear said:

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Is the Ukrainian war over ?

Amazing how media coverage in Ukraine has practically evaporated since Hamas massacred 1400 Israelis.last month .

Time for another 100 billion to be sent to Ukraine to generate some fresh headlines .

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It was literally the most important thing on earth…until it wasn't.

I guess the Hollywood celebrities are not flying over there to meet Zelensky anymore

---

The regressive fascists get more anti--Jewish fix from
Hams than the Ukies.

The penny has well and truly dropped. https://t.co/Ns7zlaIXKv

This is grim reading. pic.twitter.com/dqOwslCIcW

— Dr S Maitra (@MrMaitra) November 17, 2023

FLBear5630 said:

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quash said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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whiterock said:

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quash said:

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whiterock said:

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quash said:

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whiterock said:

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quash said:

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whiterock said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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whiterock said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Harrison Bergeron said:

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Just curious ... asking for a unicorn I know .. who can make the affirmative case that artificially funding Ukraine's economy serves what national interests of the U.S.?

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Maybe I am a Reagan Cold War guy, but I agreed with Scott and Haley last night on Ukraine. Anything we do to weaken Putin is good for US.

---

Reagan couldn't disagree more. Biden is undoing everything that he accomplished.

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Reagan would stand by and let Putin invade Ukraine? Grenada/Iran-Contra Ron would have said, we are out let Russia have Ukraine? After he worked to get Ukrainian independence. Yeah.

I served why Ronnie was President. You know how many times we (82nd Abn) got ready to deploy and sit at Pope Air Field so the satellites could get a good look? You think he was bluffing? I don't, the officers and AF personnel managing our aircraft didn't. Sitting in a stick on a tarmac for 8 hours is no fun. This happened that I can remember with Libya and Poland. Every EDRE was a satellite opportunity to show strength and he used it. Reagan also supplies Afghan Rebels and Solidarity in Poland. Reagan would not stand by and let Putin do this.

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He wouldn't have to. Reagan never would have put us in this situation to begin with. Read up on his dealings with Gorbachev and how he worked for peace despite the skepticism of his advisers.

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....and against the advice of his advisors proceeded with SDI, walked out of a summit in Reykjavik, stood in front of the Brandenburg Gate and demanded "Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!"

Reagan pushed the Soviets harder than any POTUS before him or since.

---

He believed in peace through strength. There are too many people who can only understand half the equation.

---

Exactly. We denied Ukraine the means to adequate deterrence. Look what happened.

---

Ooo, so close.

We denied Ukraine their elected president and installed a thug instead.

But you have never, ever, even shown what direct American interest is involved in this war. Are you getting something out of this?

---

LOL there you stand, "always wrong, never in doubt...."

---

Wrong about what? "**** the EU"? The thug? The lack of a direct American interest? Try to be specific.

---

the clear national interest has been laid out many, many times. You ignore it because it guts your case.

---

You've laid out arguments for indirect interests. You haven't come close to elucidating a direct American interest.

Because you don't have one

---

NATO is a "direct interest," is it not?

---

NATO is not threatened or attacked.

It's kind of like saying I might have to shoot someone if they cross onto my property line..and then like saying actually if they cross into my neighborhood at all I get to shoot them

Russia is in the neighborhood…but they are not on our property

---

So, you have no problem with Russia just taking Ukraine? China taking Taiwan, Viet Nam? Not our issue. Russian wants Cuba, they are just in our neighborhood. We have no agreement to prevent it??? Venezula, sure.

As long as it doesn't inconvenience you, they can do whatever they want.

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Well…We almost fought a nuclear war with the USSR over Cuba.

And we did it because we would never accept Soviet troops so close to our borders.

Of course modern Russia will never accept NATO troops in eastern Ukraine.

And of course Cuba was not a major port for the USA navy….like Crimea is for the Russian fleet.

And Soviet troops could not drive from Cuba to Miami.

American-NATO troops in Ukraine could roll right to Moscow by highway

---

But, we are not discussing what did happen. We are discussing what you want. Using your logic, US was wrong. Russia should be able to take Cuba. Russia should be able to take Ukraine. Not our problem and none of our business, no support from US taxpayer. US tax payer should help no one, that is the RedBrick way. Whatever keeps RedBrick taxes at their lowest...

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I think you are misunderstanding geopolitics

The USA would and did resist letting Cuba become a base for the Soviets (rightfully so)

And Russia would and will resist letting Ukraine become a base for NATO.

Forget my taxes for a moment and ask yourself why you want Ukraine to become a USA proxy state? What does it gain us but a potential war with Russia?

The USA has somehow been able to survive since 1776 without Ukraine as an ally.

Now we are told it's a vital ally…since when?

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No I don't misunderstand geopolitics. I know enough that isolationism is a ticket to being in a weakened state...

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Isolationist? lol

The USA is not isolationist and has not been for 75 years…and is in no danger of being so

This is about if the USA should risk all it has over peripheral 3rd world states that offer us very very little.

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We are not in Ukraine. There are no troops in Ukraine. We are supporting them by providing equipment and info. Now, we can discuss level of support. But, not supporting basically give Russia carte blanche. I am surprised, so many "Reagan-ites" that are against supporting a Nation trying to align west. Very un-Ronnie.

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Ukraine is not a nation "trying to align west."

Ukraine elected a Russia leaning president. We helped get him kicked out. We rejected the EU's choice (Remember Victoria Nuland's "**** the EU"? **** Victoria Nuland.) We helped put a thug in power.

He is not aligning with the West, he is getting financed by the west.

Again, without any direct American interest at risk or at play.

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Huh, that is the exact opposite of what the Ukrainians say. They say that Putin put a Russian Thug in and influenced elections through Spetznaz and their usual means. When a real election was held, Zelinsky won.

Also, Zelinski has asked to be part of NATO several times and the EU. But, that is not wanting to align with the West?

Keep reading Pravda comrade, there is a nice little red book you can get cheap, made in China.

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The Ukrainians that say that aren't entirely wrong.

But what you say sounds more like life support financing than alignment. Did you speak with any imprisoned dissidents? Any of the closed media outlets?

quash said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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quash said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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whiterock said:

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quash said:

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whiterock said:

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quash said:

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whiterock said:

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quash said:

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whiterock said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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whiterock said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Harrison Bergeron said:

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Just curious ... asking for a unicorn I know .. who can make the affirmative case that artificially funding Ukraine's economy serves what national interests of the U.S.?

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Maybe I am a Reagan Cold War guy, but I agreed with Scott and Haley last night on Ukraine. Anything we do to weaken Putin is good for US.

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Reagan couldn't disagree more. Biden is undoing everything that he accomplished.

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Reagan would stand by and let Putin invade Ukraine? Grenada/Iran-Contra Ron would have said, we are out let Russia have Ukraine? After he worked to get Ukrainian independence. Yeah.

I served why Ronnie was President. You know how many times we (82nd Abn) got ready to deploy and sit at Pope Air Field so the satellites could get a good look? You think he was bluffing? I don't, the officers and AF personnel managing our aircraft didn't. Sitting in a stick on a tarmac for 8 hours is no fun. This happened that I can remember with Libya and Poland. Every EDRE was a satellite opportunity to show strength and he used it. Reagan also supplies Afghan Rebels and Solidarity in Poland. Reagan would not stand by and let Putin do this.

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He wouldn't have to. Reagan never would have put us in this situation to begin with. Read up on his dealings with Gorbachev and how he worked for peace despite the skepticism of his advisers.

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....and against the advice of his advisors proceeded with SDI, walked out of a summit in Reykjavik, stood in front of the Brandenburg Gate and demanded "Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!"

Reagan pushed the Soviets harder than any POTUS before him or since.

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He believed in peace through strength. There are too many people who can only understand half the equation.

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Exactly. We denied Ukraine the means to adequate deterrence. Look what happened.

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Ooo, so close.

We denied Ukraine their elected president and installed a thug instead.

But you have never, ever, even shown what direct American interest is involved in this war. Are you getting something out of this?

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LOL there you stand, "always wrong, never in doubt...."

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Wrong about what? "**** the EU"? The thug? The lack of a direct American interest? Try to be specific.

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the clear national interest has been laid out many, many times. You ignore it because it guts your case.

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You've laid out arguments for indirect interests. You haven't come close to elucidating a direct American interest.

Because you don't have one

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NATO is a "direct interest," is it not?

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NATO is not threatened or attacked.

It's kind of like saying I might have to shoot someone if they cross onto my property line..and then like saying actually if they cross into my neighborhood at all I get to shoot them

Russia is in the neighborhood…but they are not on our property

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So, you have no problem with Russia just taking Ukraine? China taking Taiwan, Viet Nam? Not our issue. Russian wants Cuba, they are just in our neighborhood. We have no agreement to prevent it??? Venezula, sure.

As long as it doesn't inconvenience you, they can do whatever they want.

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Well…We almost fought a nuclear war with the USSR over Cuba.

And we did it because we would never accept Soviet troops so close to our borders.

Of course modern Russia will never accept NATO troops in eastern Ukraine.

And of course Cuba was not a major port for the USA navy….like Crimea is for the Russian fleet.

And Soviet troops could not drive from Cuba to Miami.

American-NATO troops in Ukraine could roll right to Moscow by highway

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But, we are not discussing what did happen. We are discussing what you want. Using your logic, US was wrong. Russia should be able to take Cuba. Russia should be able to take Ukraine. Not our problem and none of our business, no support from US taxpayer. US tax payer should help no one, that is the RedBrick way. Whatever keeps RedBrick taxes at their lowest...

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I think you are misunderstanding geopolitics

The USA would and did resist letting Cuba become a base for the Soviets (rightfully so)

And Russia would and will resist letting Ukraine become a base for NATO.

Forget my taxes for a moment and ask yourself why you want Ukraine to become a USA proxy state? What does it gain us but a potential war with Russia?

The USA has somehow been able to survive since 1776 without Ukraine as an ally.

Now we are told it's a vital ally…since when?

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No I don't misunderstand geopolitics. I know enough that isolationism is a ticket to being in a weakened state...

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Isolationist? lol

The USA is not isolationist and has not been for 75 years…and is in no danger of being so

This is about if the USA should risk all it has over peripheral 3rd world states that offer us very very little.

---

We are not in Ukraine. There are no troops in Ukraine. We are supporting them by providing equipment and info. Now, we can discuss level of support. But, not supporting basically give Russia carte blanche. I am surprised, so many "Reagan-ites" that are against supporting a Nation trying to align west. Very un-Ronnie.

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Ukraine is not a nation "trying to align west."

Ukraine elected a Russia leaning president. We helped get him kicked out. We rejected the EU's choice (Remember Victoria Nuland's "**** the EU"? **** Victoria Nuland.) We helped put a thug in power.

He is not aligning with the West, he is getting financed by the west.

Again, without any direct American interest at risk or at play.

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Huh, that is the exact opposite of what the Ukrainians say. They say that Putin put a Russian Thug in and influenced elections through Spetznaz and their usual means. When a real election was held, Zelinsky won.

Also, Zelinski has asked to be part of NATO several times and the EU. But, that is not wanting to align with the West?

Keep reading Pravda comrade, there is a nice little red book you can get cheap, made in China.

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The Ukrainians that say that aren't entirely wrong.

But what you say sounds more like life support financing than alignment. Did you speak with any imprisoned dissidents? Any of the closed media outlets?

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My opinion is based on a Ukrainian that I helped get here. Her and her family are from Kiev. They do not view Zelensky as many portray as an American plant. They view the other guy as a Russian plant that was deposed. I know for a fact she had to tell her Grandmother not to get on the Russian buses and to go home and wait for family to get her.

So my view is a little different from those just talking what they think. Her family is still in Kiev.

Some Neo-Cons Slowly Coming To Grips With Reality In Ukraine

"The United States political class is locked into a self-defeating delusion that Russia is still a communist state bent on World Domination. Any politician who suggests the alternative, i.e. that we need to deal with Russia as an equal and that we should stop treating Putin and his government as an enemy, will be tarred immediately as a Putin apologist and ostracized. Here is the hard truth the political elite in both parties are using Russia as an excuse to engage in the same practices that were the cornerstone of Soviet policies during the Cold War. It is the United States that is locking up political dissidents. It is the United States Government that is collaborating with social media companies to quash dissent against the ruling class.

It is not the fault of Russia that black kids in inner-city schools are "graduating" from high school without being able to read or do algebra. It is not Russia's fault that America's southern border is wide open and being swarmed by millions of illegal migrants. It is not Russia's fault that many of America's largest cities are ravaged with narcotics addiction, violence and criminal activity. Look in the mirror America. Clean up your act."

Realitybites said:

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Some Neo-Cons Slowly Coming To Grips With Reality In Ukraine

"The United States political class is locked into a self-defeating delusion that Russia is still a communist state bent on World Domination. Any politician who suggests the alternative, i.e. that we need to deal with Russia as an equal and that we should stop treating Putin and his government as an enemy, will be tarred immediately as a Putin apologist and ostracized. Here is the hard truth the political elite in both parties are using Russia as an excuse to engage in the same practices that were the cornerstone of Soviet policies during the Cold War. It is the United States that is locking up political dissidents. It is the United States Government that is collaborating with social media companies to quash dissent against the ruling class.

It is not the fault of Russia that black kids in inner-city schools are "graduating" from high school without being able to read or do algebra. It is not Russia's fault that America's southern border is wide open and being swarmed by millions of illegal migrants. It is not Russia's fault that many of America's largest cities are ravaged with narcotics addiction, violence and criminal activity. Look in the mirror America. Clean up your act."

---

What do those things have to do with providing aide to Ukraine? Or, Israel?

All those things need to be done, but attaching some false correlation between those issues and providing support to Ukraine and Israel is in some way blaming Russia for domestic issues? Russia wants US to stop, leave Ukraine. Russia invaded, remember???


Very poorly written and thought out...

FLBear5630 said:

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Realitybites said:

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Some Neo-Cons Slowly Coming To Grips With Reality In Ukraine

"The United States political class is locked into a self-defeating delusion that Russia is still a communist state bent on World Domination. Any politician who suggests the alternative, i.e. that we need to deal with Russia as an equal and that we should stop treating Putin and his government as an enemy, will be tarred immediately as a Putin apologist and ostracized. Here is the hard truth the political elite in both parties are using Russia as an excuse to engage in the same practices that were the cornerstone of Soviet policies during the Cold War. It is the United States that is locking up political dissidents. It is the United States Government that is collaborating with social media companies to quash dissent against the ruling class.

It is not the fault of Russia that black kids in inner-city schools are "graduating" from high school without being able to read or do algebra. It is not Russia's fault that America's southern border is wide open and being swarmed by millions of illegal migrants. It is not Russia's fault that many of America's largest cities are ravaged with narcotics addiction, violence and criminal activity. Look in the mirror America. Clean up your act."

---

What do those things have to do with providing aide to Ukraine? Or, Israel?

All those things need to be done, but attaching some false correlation between those issues and providing support to Ukraine….

---

But those domestic issues are way way more important to the continued prosperity and success of the USA than ukriane/Israel

Most Americans don't really care much about what happens to these client states on the other side of the world.

Americans do care about their lives, their families, their communities, their nation.

While DC seems to ONLY care about client states in the other side of the world

Redbrickbear said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Realitybites said:

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Some Neo-Cons Slowly Coming To Grips With Reality In Ukraine

"The United States political class is locked into a self-defeating delusion that Russia is still a communist state bent on World Domination. Any politician who suggests the alternative, i.e. that we need to deal with Russia as an equal and that we should stop treating Putin and his government as an enemy, will be tarred immediately as a Putin apologist and ostracized. Here is the hard truth the political elite in both parties are using Russia as an excuse to engage in the same practices that were the cornerstone of Soviet policies during the Cold War. It is the United States that is locking up political dissidents. It is the United States Government that is collaborating with social media companies to quash dissent against the ruling class.

It is not the fault of Russia that black kids in inner-city schools are "graduating" from high school without being able to read or do algebra. It is not Russia's fault that America's southern border is wide open and being swarmed by millions of illegal migrants. It is not Russia's fault that many of America's largest cities are ravaged with narcotics addiction, violence and criminal activity. Look in the mirror America. Clean up your act."

---

What do those things have to do with providing aide to Ukraine? Or, Israel?

All those things need to be done, but attaching some false correlation between those issues and providing support to Ukraine….

---

But those domestic issues are way way more important to the continued prosperity and success of the USA than ukriane/Israel

Most Americans don't really care much about what happens to these client states on the other side of the world.

Americans do care about their lives, their families, their communities, their nation.

While DC seems to ONLY care about client states in the other side of the world

---

You seem to think it is a singular issue, either/or. It is not. We have to be able to do multiple things at once. I agree the issues you bring up are important. The border is inexcusable. Myokas should be prosecuted. The way Blue Mayors and Governors have destroyed our Cities, is the same. Lightfoot in Chicago should be prosecuted as should the Mayors of SF, Seattle, Portland, and others. No argument.

But, that does not diminish the US's role in the world. The more we shrug that off, the more China, Russia and India will fill that vacuum. For the long term prosperity, the US's position is just as important. Unless you believe we should be the same as Germany or Japan. That we shouldn't be a Super Power.

FLBear5630 said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Realitybites said:

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Some Neo-Cons Slowly Coming To Grips With Reality In Ukraine

"The United States political class is locked into a self-defeating delusion that Russia is still a communist state bent on World Domination. Any politician who suggests the alternative, i.e. that we need to deal with Russia as an equal and that we should stop treating Putin and his government as an enemy, will be tarred immediately as a Putin apologist and ostracized. Here is the hard truth the political elite in both parties are using Russia as an excuse to engage in the same practices that were the cornerstone of Soviet policies during the Cold War. It is the United States that is locking up political dissidents. It is the United States Government that is collaborating with social media companies to quash dissent against the ruling class.

It is not the fault of Russia that black kids in inner-city schools are "graduating" from high school without being able to read or do algebra. It is not Russia's fault that America's southern border is wide open and being swarmed by millions of illegal migrants. It is not Russia's fault that many of America's largest cities are ravaged with narcotics addiction, violence and criminal activity. Look in the mirror America. Clean up your act."

---

What do those things have to do with providing aide to Ukraine? Or, Israel?

All those things need to be done, but attaching some false correlation between those issues and providing support to Ukraine….

---

But those domestic issues are way way more important to the continued prosperity and success of the USA than ukriane/Israel

Most Americans don't really care much about what happens to these client states on the other side of the world.

Americans do care about their lives, their families, their communities, their nation.

While DC seems to ONLY care about client states in the other side of the world

---

You seem to think it is a singular issue, either/or. It is not. We have to be able to do multiple things at once...

---

Again but we are not..that is the whole point.

We have major systemic issues in America and our ruling class is focused on foreign nations.

1 foreign nation that has a first world economy and nuclear weapons taking on a stateless people who they can easily beat.

And 1 that is basically a large money laundering scheme for career politicians and the defense industry.

Neither of these two places are vital to America and yet our political class is obsessed with them.

Our priorities are way off.

They seem to prize the expansion of the USA imperium over the actual lives, values, living standards of the American people.

Redbrickbear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

Some Neo-Cons Slowly Coming To Grips With Reality In Ukraine

"The United States political class is locked into a self-defeating delusion that Russia is still a communist state bent on World Domination. Any politician who suggests the alternative, i.e. that we need to deal with Russia as an equal and that we should stop treating Putin and his government as an enemy, will be tarred immediately as a Putin apologist and ostracized. Here is the hard truth the political elite in both parties are using Russia as an excuse to engage in the same practices that were the cornerstone of Soviet policies during the Cold War. It is the United States that is locking up political dissidents. It is the United States Government that is collaborating with social media companies to quash dissent against the ruling class.

It is not the fault of Russia that black kids in inner-city schools are "graduating" from high school without being able to read or do algebra. It is not Russia's fault that America's southern border is wide open and being swarmed by millions of illegal migrants. It is not Russia's fault that many of America's largest cities are ravaged with narcotics addiction, violence and criminal activity. Look in the mirror America. Clean up your act."

---

What do those things have to do with providing aide to Ukraine? Or, Israel?

All those things need to be done, but attaching some false correlation between those issues and providing support to Ukraine….

---

But those domestic issues are way way more important to the continued prosperity and success of the USA than ukriane/Israel

Most Americans don't really care much about what happens to these client states on the other side of the world.

Americans do care about their lives, their families, their communities, their nation.

While DC seems to ONLY care about client states in the other side of the world

---

You seem to think it is a singular issue, either/or. It is not. We have to be able to do multiple things at once...

---

Again but we are not..that is the whole point.

We have major systemic issues in America and our ruling class is focused on foreign nations.

1 foreign nation that has a first world economy and nuclear weapons taking on a stateless people who they can easily beat.

And 1 that is basically a large money laundering scheme for career politicians and the defense industry.

Neither of these two places are vital to America and yet our political class is obsessed with them.

Our priorities are way off.

They seem to prize the expansion of the USA imperium over the actual lives, values, living standards of the American people.

---

I think your focus is on the wrong area, this is consistent with the US since the end of WW2. In my opinion, I think the focus is why we can't do more than one thing? Why the Domestic program is abysmal. You may want to mark this post, I agree with Margorie Greene (Cannot believe am I writing this!). Myokis needs to be impeached. She is right. We need Congress to do their job and take charge of the Border. That and China is our biggest issues right now, what we are doing in Ukraine and Israel is peanuts in the big picture.

FLBear5630 said:

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Redbrickbear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

Some Neo-Cons Slowly Coming To Grips With Reality In Ukraine

"The United States political class is locked into a self-defeating delusion that Russia is still a communist state bent on World Domination. Any politician who suggests the alternative, i.e. that we need to deal with Russia as an equal and that we should stop treating Putin and his government as an enemy, will be tarred immediately as a Putin apologist and ostracized. Here is the hard truth the political elite in both parties are using Russia as an excuse to engage in the same practices that were the cornerstone of Soviet policies during the Cold War. It is the United States that is locking up political dissidents. It is the United States Government that is collaborating with social media companies to quash dissent against the ruling class.

It is not the fault of Russia that black kids in inner-city schools are "graduating" from high school without being able to read or do algebra. It is not Russia's fault that America's southern border is wide open and being swarmed by millions of illegal migrants. It is not Russia's fault that many of America's largest cities are ravaged with narcotics addiction, violence and criminal activity. Look in the mirror America. Clean up your act."

---

What do those things have to do with providing aide to Ukraine? Or, Israel?

All those things need to be done, but attaching some false correlation between those issues and providing support to Ukraine….

---

But those domestic issues are way way more important to the continued prosperity and success of the USA than ukriane/Israel

Most Americans don't really care much about what happens to these client states on the other side of the world.

Americans do care about their lives, their families, their communities, their nation.

While DC seems to ONLY care about client states in the other side of the world

---

You seem to think it is a singular issue, either/or. It is not. We have to be able to do multiple things at once...

---

Again but we are not..that is the whole point.

We have major systemic issues in America and our ruling class is focused on foreign nations.

1 foreign nation that has a first world economy and nuclear weapons taking on a stateless people who they can easily beat.

And 1 that is basically a large money laundering scheme for career politicians and the defense industry.

Neither of these two places are vital to America and yet our political class is obsessed with them.

Our priorities are way off.

They seem to prize the expansion of the USA imperium over the actual lives, values, living standards of the American people.

---

We need Congress to do their job and take charge of the Border. That and China is our biggest issues right now, what we are doing in Ukraine and Israel is peanuts in the big picture.

---

1. I think Congress has shown us time and time again that they are not going to do anything about the border crisis.

Republicans and Democrats want endless cheap labor form the 3rd world.

2. You are right that China is far bigger threat. Russia right now would not even have a market to sale its natural resources to if it was not for China.

They would have been economically forced to give up the war if China was not supporting them.

But again we see that our ruling class is focusing on Moscow and not Beijing.

Xi was in the USA just last week being dined by the President and sucked up to by our Wall St business class

Again our national priorities are all wrong

Redbrickbear said:

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FLBear5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

Some Neo-Cons Slowly Coming To Grips With Reality In Ukraine

"The United States political class is locked into a self-defeating delusion that Russia is still a communist state bent on World Domination. Any politician who suggests the alternative, i.e. that we need to deal with Russia as an equal and that we should stop treating Putin and his government as an enemy, will be tarred immediately as a Putin apologist and ostracized. Here is the hard truth the political elite in both parties are using Russia as an excuse to engage in the same practices that were the cornerstone of Soviet policies during the Cold War. It is the United States that is locking up political dissidents. It is the United States Government that is collaborating with social media companies to quash dissent against the ruling class.

It is not the fault of Russia that black kids in inner-city schools are "graduating" from high school without being able to read or do algebra. It is not Russia's fault that America's southern border is wide open and being swarmed by millions of illegal migrants. It is not Russia's fault that many of America's largest cities are ravaged with narcotics addiction, violence and criminal activity. Look in the mirror America. Clean up your act."

---

What do those things have to do with providing aide to Ukraine? Or, Israel?

All those things need to be done, but attaching some false correlation between those issues and providing support to Ukraine….

---

But those domestic issues are way way more important to the continued prosperity and success of the USA than ukriane/Israel

Most Americans don't really care much about what happens to these client states on the other side of the world.

Americans do care about their lives, their families, their communities, their nation.

While DC seems to ONLY care about client states in the other side of the world

---

You seem to think it is a singular issue, either/or. It is not. We have to be able to do multiple things at once...

---

Again but we are not..that is the whole point.

We have major systemic issues in America and our ruling class is focused on foreign nations.

1 foreign nation that has a first world economy and nuclear weapons taking on a stateless people who they can easily beat.

And 1 that is basically a large money laundering scheme for career politicians and the defense industry.

Neither of these two places are vital to America and yet our political class is obsessed with them.

Our priorities are way off.

They seem to prize the expansion of the USA imperium over the actual lives, values, living standards of the American people.

---

We need Congress to do their job and take charge of the Border. That and China is our biggest issues right now, what we are doing in Ukraine and Israel is peanuts in the big picture.

---

1. I think Congress has shown us time and time again that they are not going to do anything about the border crisis.

Republicans and Democrats want endless cheap labor form the 3rd world.

2. You are right that China is far bigger threat. Russia right now would not even have a market to sale its natural resources to if it was not for China.

They would have been economically forced to give up the war if China was not supporting them.

But again we see that our ruling class is focusing on Moscow and not Beijing.

Xi was in the USA just last week being dined by the President and sucked up to by our Wall St business class

Again our national priorities are all wrong

---

I think it is pretty clear Biden is bought and delivered by China.

Most US foreign aid is money laundering for the US military industrial complex and its beneficiaries.

— Thomas Massie (@RepThomasMassie) November 18, 2023