Redbrickbear said:

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whiterock said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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whiterock said:

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historian said:

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…corollary of which goes like this: "Russia does not now pose nor ever has posed a threat to Europe so we must allow it to reoccupy as many of its former vassal states as it feels it is entitled to in order to avoid nuclear Armageddon…."

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NATO is pretty big now days

So even if Russia was trying reoccupying vassal states....there are not many available

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….thanks to those wise enough to expand prudently….

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100% agree with wise and moderate expansion

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if it took 25 years for a war to start in a third-country, it was by definition moderate expansion which had little to do with the war.......

historian said:

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whiterock said:

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historian said:

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…corollary of which goes like this: "Russia does not now pose nor ever has posed a threat to Europe so we must allow it to reoccupy as many of its former vassal states as it feels it is entitled to in order to avoid nuclear Armageddon…."

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I don't know of anyone who has made that argument. Anywhere. Ever.

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that is the underlying them of the most vocal war opponents. It's always OUR fault, never Russia's.

Assassin said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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Assassin said:

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Doc Holliday said:

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Peace deal happening. Thank the Lord

SEC. RUBIO: "We've made an offer that the Ukrainians have accepted, which is to enter into a ceasefire and into immediate negotiations to end this conflict in a way that's enduring and sustainable." pic.twitter.com/oVFGPfSFBX

— Breaking911 (@Breaking911) March 11, 2025

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The ball is with Putin now

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It depends on what we're offering. A ceasefire in and of itself benefits no one except the Ukrainians.

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My guess is that the Ukranians are going to have to give up some land, Zelensky will have to step down and the US gets a bunch of mineral rights

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correct, though I'd amend that we would set a date for an election rather than have him just step down.....

trey3216 said:

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Assassin said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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Assassin said:

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Doc Holliday said:

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Peace deal happening. Thank the Lord

SEC. RUBIO: "We've made an offer that the Ukrainians have accepted, which is to enter into a ceasefire and into immediate negotiations to end this conflict in a way that's enduring and sustainable." pic.twitter.com/oVFGPfSFBX

— Breaking911 (@Breaking911) March 11, 2025

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The ball is with Putin now

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It depends on what we're offering. A ceasefire in and of itself benefits no one except the Ukrainians.

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My guess is that the Ukranians are going to have to give up some land, Zelensky will have to step down and the US gets a bunch of mineral rights

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My guess is Putin will show his ass, and we'll be right back to square one.

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.....which will free up Trump's hand to lower the boom on sanctions, make weapons sales, remove restrictions on use of weapons systems, use of frozen Russian assets to aid Ukraine, etc.... And Ukraine will have a lot of money to spend from the mineral deal.

Getting Ukraine to agree to talks positions Russia as the instigator, intransigent, etc...

whiterock said:

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historian said:

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whiterock said:

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historian said:

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…corollary of which goes like this: "Russia does not now pose nor ever has posed a threat to Europe so we must allow it to reoccupy as many of its former vassal states as it feels it is entitled to in order to avoid nuclear Armageddon…."

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I don't know of anyone who has made that argument. Anywhere. Ever.

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that is the underlying them of the most vocal war opponents. It's always OUR fault, never Russia's.

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Actually, that is the argument of several members here.
Russia is not a threat to Europe.
Due to the large number of Russian speakers, not regarding 50 years of Russian occupancy, Russia has the right to take those lands
Ukraine has been a Russian vassal in the past, so it belongs to Russia
Throw in Nuland made a phone call (the most grievious act in US/Russia history according to some and the US funded efforts to move to a Democracy

Add those together and you get exactly what Whiterock said. Correct, Sam RedBrick and the rest of the Russia apologist.

Mahan rolls in his grave….

The United States now accounts for just 0.1% of global shipbuilding… 0.1%

Meanwhile, China alone is 53%+

America needs to get serious.
(h/t: @BrianTHart) pic.twitter.com/7m4gCtEMrM

— Geiger Capital (@Geiger_Capital) March 12, 2025

whiterock said:

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Mahan rolls in his grave….

The United States now accounts for just 0.1% of global shipbuilding… 0.1%

Meanwhile, China alone is 53%+

America needs to get serious.
(h/t: @BrianTHart) pic.twitter.com/7m4gCtEMrM

— Geiger Capital (@Geiger_Capital) March 12, 2025

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That is one of items that Trump pushed in his agenda. I remember going to shipyards in the 80s and seeing lots of ships being built. We ported in Norfolk, where the Navy was probably building half a dozen ships. It was pretty amazing to watch them being built in sections.

We were getting a new forpeak on our ship in San Diego, I think it was Continental Shipyards. They refitted ships there. This Navy helicopter gunship was next to us and the Exxon Valdez was right down the yard.

Spent a few weeks at a wetdock in San Fran. Ended up having to go to a dry dock. Amazing to watch the process

We have tons of shipyards ready to build. Not sure why we dropped off the face of the earth

whiterock said:

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historian said:

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whiterock said:

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historian said:

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…corollary of which goes like this: "Russia does not now pose nor ever has posed a threat to Europe so we must allow it to reoccupy as many of its former vassal states as it feels it is entitled to in order to avoid nuclear Armageddon…."

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I don't know of anyone who has made that argument. Anywhere. Ever.

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that is the underlying them of the most vocal war opponents. It's always OUR fault, never Russia's.

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Ok so do you push for peace or not?

Ukraine can't win with solely financial or military equipment/weaponry assistance from the West. They could win if we have western boots on the ground and air support.

The idea that we keep them afloat only for them to die out and be forced to give up seems pointless. For Ukraine, its government, its people, its culture... there's many different outcomes, some worse some better. Some may be OK for the government, but not the people (losing a war with high casualties), while other may be OK for the people, but not the government, and so on. Certain outcomes may be acceptable to some people but disastrous to others living in different parts.

In short, there's not "one" successful outcome. There isn't a clean Ukrainian victory in which everyone wins. If nothing else, the ones that have already died and their families are already removed from true victory. Plus the generational trauma and mass fatherless homes that will lead to multiple generations of weak unguided men.

For Ukrainians to stand a chance, military history suggests that they would need a 3-to-2 advantage in manpower and considerably more firepower. Ukraine enjoyed these advantages in the first year of the war, but they now lie with Russia, and it is very difficult to see how Ukraine can recover them.

whiterock said:

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Mahan rolls in his grave….

The United States now accounts for just 0.1% of global shipbuilding… 0.1%

Meanwhile, China alone is 53%+

America needs to get serious.
(h/t: @BrianTHart) pic.twitter.com/7m4gCtEMrM

— Geiger Capital (@Geiger_Capital) March 12, 2025

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Mahan isn't rolling over yet as the only ship building we do is for the Navy. We exited the merchant game a while ago (which is where the ship volume is) thanks to unions, the Jones act and the whittling away of the Merchant Marine Act and similar subsidies. That on top of our raw material costs and unwillingness to actually produce them.

I'd focus on increasing naval ship building capacity. That's truly strategic. The merchant game not so much.