UKRAINE: Zelensky is fighting Trump’s ceasefire efforts, saying Russia must return all territory gained since 2014. He calls that he ‘redline’. This means forever war. pic.twitter.com/uL86WPvlc0
— @amuse (@amuse) March 20, 2025
Assassin said:UKRAINE: Zelensky is fighting Trump’s ceasefire efforts, saying Russia must return all territory gained since 2014. He calls that he ‘redline’. This means forever war. pic.twitter.com/uL86WPvlc0
— @amuse (@amuse) March 20, 2025
11. Hungary prioritizes national interests over globalist policies.
— Culture Explorer (@CultureExploreX) March 21, 2025
All European Union nations but Hungary signed a joint statement on March 6th, 2025, backing Ukraine, the second time in a month that Budapest was the bloc’s sole member to decline to sign such a statement of… pic.twitter.com/3oEMwvcmyq
What national interests does Hungary prioritize? If you ask someone from Hungary the answer would be he sold out his country for personal gainAssassin said:11. Hungary prioritizes national interests over globalist policies.
— Culture Explorer (@CultureExploreX) March 21, 2025
All European Union nations but Hungary signed a joint statement on March 6th, 2025, backing Ukraine, the second time in a month that Budapest was the bloc’s sole member to decline to sign such a statement of… pic.twitter.com/3oEMwvcmyq
You mean, 'if you ask someone on MSNBC/CNN what they say someone from Hungary' that's what the answer would be. Change the channel!!ron.reagan said:What national interests does Hungary prioritize? If you ask someone from Hungary the answer would be he sold out his country for personal gainAssassin said:11. Hungary prioritizes national interests over globalist policies.
— Culture Explorer (@CultureExploreX) March 21, 2025
All European Union nations but Hungary signed a joint statement on March 6th, 2025, backing Ukraine, the second time in a month that Budapest was the bloc’s sole member to decline to sign such a statement of… pic.twitter.com/3oEMwvcmyq
LOL I wasn't advocating American support or opposition for Armenia. I was merely pointing out that you are completely blind to the realities of geopolitics.The_barBEARian said:whiterock said:because disruptions in trade to our trade partners have not inconsiderable ripple effects on us.The_barBEARian said:Redbrickbear said:ron.reagan said:
I see no benefit from bombing Yemen. It's like trying to dry up a river with a towel instead of fixing the dam. Most of the ignorant ****s there have such a **** life I can hardly blame them for just wanting to see the world burn
"If you kill enough of them, they stop fighting "- Curtis LeMay
They will in fact get tired of being bombed and have special forces raids kill lots of them and cost them money
And denying them a long term occupation also denies them easy American targets and internet propaganda videos when they blow up a unlucky army vehicle
Massie put out an interesting tweet that the United States isnt even in the top 5 countries who transport the most cargo through the Red Sea.
that is a true but misleading statistic. We are 2% of TOTAL global export shipments by sea (and a slightly larger share of global import shipments by sea).
The top transporter is China. So why are we spending billions of dollars to secure China's shipping lanes?
because maintaining/disrupting trade routes impact the security/stability position of entire regions (where we have interests).
because our navy uses the same trade routes Chinese cargo ships.
The Houthis are Shiites. They are a proxy of Iran, who seeks destabilize the Saudi Arabian peninsula, which:
-- Diminishes Saudi power
-- Shuts down Red Sea trade routes, which diminishes everyone who needs those trade routes
-- Strengthens Iranian soft power (if you defy Teheran, Teheran will deny you transit of the Red Sea)
-- Prevents Iran from being shut out of direct sea routes to the eastern Med (which allows them to pose flanking threats to a number of their geopolitical rivals - chiefly Turkey (with whom they have a land border) but also Israel and Egypt).
--Enables Iranian naval assets in the Med to counter Turkish support of Azerbaijan (who are fellow turks and also have a land border with Iran).
--Enables Iranian naval assets in the Med to have access to the Black Sea, to counter Turkey by supporting Armenia (who exists in constant tension with Turkey and Azerbaijan and typically looks to Iran for support).
And then there's this: 20% of international container shipping transits the Red Sea. Shut off that level of trade, and global recession looms. Global recession is a brake on US economic growth. And Iran is using the Houthis to do exactly that - attempt to shut down Red Sea trade routes. To the extent China is allied with Iran, Iranian support for Houthis is supportive of Chinese policy - to defend Chinese trade thru the Red Sea, or to afford Chinese ability to influence (facilitate or deny) the trade of others thru the Red Sea (Chinese soft power.....)
To the extent one thinks Iran is a problem, then one has an interest in what they are doing in the Red Sea.
Allowing the precedent to stand that a minor power can hold trade routes hostage would encourage other countries to consider such policies to strengthen their power.
(....just for starters....)
If supporting Iran ensures Armenia, the only remaining Christian country in the middle east, survives then let the houthis and Iran control the Red Sea.
I support the Armenians and all the rest of the scattered and beaten ME Christians.
whiterock said:LOL I wasn't advocating American support or opposition for Armenia. I was merely pointing out that you are completely blind to the realities of geopolitics.The_barBEARian said:whiterock said:because disruptions in trade to our trade partners have not inconsiderable ripple effects on us.The_barBEARian said:Redbrickbear said:ron.reagan said:
I see no benefit from bombing Yemen. It's like trying to dry up a river with a towel instead of fixing the dam. Most of the ignorant ****s there have such a **** life I can hardly blame them for just wanting to see the world burn
"If you kill enough of them, they stop fighting "- Curtis LeMay
They will in fact get tired of being bombed and have special forces raids kill lots of them and cost them money
And denying them a long term occupation also denies them easy American targets and internet propaganda videos when they blow up a unlucky army vehicle
Massie put out an interesting tweet that the United States isnt even in the top 5 countries who transport the most cargo through the Red Sea.
that is a true but misleading statistic. We are 2% of TOTAL global export shipments by sea (and a slightly larger share of global import shipments by sea).
The top transporter is China. So why are we spending billions of dollars to secure China's shipping lanes?
because maintaining/disrupting trade routes impact the security/stability position of entire regions (where we have interests).
because our navy uses the same trade routes Chinese cargo ships.
The Houthis are Shiites. They are a proxy of Iran, who seeks destabilize the Saudi Arabian peninsula, which:
-- Diminishes Saudi power
-- Shuts down Red Sea trade routes, which diminishes everyone who needs those trade routes
-- Strengthens Iranian soft power (if you defy Teheran, Teheran will deny you transit of the Red Sea)
-- Prevents Iran from being shut out of direct sea routes to the eastern Med (which allows them to pose flanking threats to a number of their geopolitical rivals - chiefly Turkey (with whom they have a land border) but also Israel and Egypt).
--Enables Iranian naval assets in the Med to counter Turkish support of Azerbaijan (who are fellow turks and also have a land border with Iran).
--Enables Iranian naval assets in the Med to have access to the Black Sea, to counter Turkey by supporting Armenia (who exists in constant tension with Turkey and Azerbaijan and typically looks to Iran for support).
And then there's this: 20% of international container shipping transits the Red Sea. Shut off that level of trade, and global recession looms. Global recession is a brake on US economic growth. And Iran is using the Houthis to do exactly that - attempt to shut down Red Sea trade routes. To the extent China is allied with Iran, Iranian support for Houthis is supportive of Chinese policy - to defend Chinese trade thru the Red Sea, or to afford Chinese ability to influence (facilitate or deny) the trade of others thru the Red Sea (Chinese soft power.....)
To the extent one thinks Iran is a problem, then one has an interest in what they are doing in the Red Sea.
Allowing the precedent to stand that a minor power can hold trade routes hostage would encourage other countries to consider such policies to strengthen their power.
(....just for starters....)
If supporting Iran ensures Armenia, the only remaining Christian country in the middle east, survives then let the houthis and Iran control the Red Sea.
I support the Armenians and all the rest of the scattered and beaten ME Christians.
A) Religious similarities matter.
B) Ethnic/linguistic similarities matter.
C) Ideological similarities matter.
D) But NOTHING matters more than geography.
E) And Armenia's geography FORCE it to look to Iran (and Russia) for assistance.
F) That, in turn, often puts Armenian interests at odds with Israel.
Your policy is, and there's no polite way to say it, childish, Idiotic, etc..... You are letting A drive everything, everywhere, no matter what the consequences.
Your policy misses basic facts, too. Armenia is not a Middle Eastern country. It is in the Caucasus, sandwiched in a shatterzone BETWEEN the middle east and Eurasia, as well as between three major powers - Turkey, Iran, Russia. If the Armenians were muslims, their lot would be quite a bit more simple. But they're not. They're Christians wedged in between a major power (Turkey) and a minor power (Azerbaijan), which have A & B in common, both relative to each other and to other greater powers. That forces the Armenians to look elsewhere for support, and there are two major options - Russia and Iran. Now I, too, am favorably inclined to support a Christian nations in the situation Armenia faces. See "A" above. But rather than let that one issue drive the entirety of US policy in the Europe and the Middle East (and surrounding seas & gulfs), I would lean on quiet diplomacy and (more importantly) on intelligence liaison to further US policy interests. I would give Armenia a little foreign aid (we can debate pros/cons on specifics), but I would spend a lot more time & effort recruiting Armenian intel officers who liaise with Russian & Iranian intel agencies (as a way of gaining intel on Russian & Iranian plans/policies/intentions in the region). In other words, I can't change A-D above, but I can exploit it to my advantage as best as possible.
That's how you do it. You have to accept the realities on the ground and use the forces of gravity (A-D) to push your interests as best as you can. Armenia will always, always, always be forced to attend to the foreign policy concerns of Russia and Iran, because Russia and Iran are the only ones who have any serious incentive to help them resist Turkey. And Turkey is OUR ally against Iran & Russia. So despite whatever concerns I might have about Turkish intentions in the region (which are not seamlessly allied with ours), I have to manage things well enough to keep them lined up on our side on the major issues (Russia, Iran). THAT'S how I help Armenia. If I do too much directly, I end up at odds with a long list of more useful relationships. So I use other options to keep Turkey in check....to make Turkey calculate that it's in their interest not to beat up on Armenia too much for fear of provoking us to more forcefully engage to resist their interests elsewhere.
how do we do that, some might ask? (not you...you've already stuck your head in the sand....) Simple. You make sure the King of Jordan takes your calls (because Jordan is in the Mesopotamian shatterzone between Iran, Turkey, Saudi, and Egypt). You make sure you are on very good terms with the Egyptians and Saudis (who are highly motivated to resist Turkish expansion). And......(here's the part where your start frothing at the mouth).....you maintain very good relations with Israel, a highly capable Western country facing the exact same kinds of pressures Armenia is facing (isolated among hostiles). Look at what Israel is doing in Syria (degrading Syrian regime military assets, moving into Druze areas to establish a protectorate, etc....) Rarely does one have a better ally than a country surrounded by hostiles.
If there's one thing Israel, Jordan, Saudi, and Egypt are completely of one mind about, it's to stop the expansion of Turkish (or Iranian) power. Our interests are in line with theirs. Our policy flows thusly. But who's going to do the grunt work on that? Israel. You can hate them all you want, but they are the single best foreign policy investment we've ever made.
The Saudis and Egyptians are willing to put aside their aversion to Israel in order to further larger interests. Why can't you do the same?
whiterock said:LOL I wasn't advocating American support or opposition for Armenia. I was merely pointing out that you are completely blind to the realities of geopolitics.The_barBEARian said:whiterock said:because disruptions in trade to our trade partners have not inconsiderable ripple effects on us.The_barBEARian said:Redbrickbear said:ron.reagan said:
I see no benefit from bombing Yemen. It's like trying to dry up a river with a towel instead of fixing the dam. Most of the ignorant ****s there have such a **** life I can hardly blame them for just wanting to see the world burn
"If you kill enough of them, they stop fighting "- Curtis LeMay
They will in fact get tired of being bombed and have special forces raids kill lots of them and cost them money
And denying them a long term occupation also denies them easy American targets and internet propaganda videos when they blow up a unlucky army vehicle
Massie put out an interesting tweet that the United States isnt even in the top 5 countries who transport the most cargo through the Red Sea.
that is a true but misleading statistic. We are 2% of TOTAL global export shipments by sea (and a slightly larger share of global import shipments by sea).
The top transporter is China. So why are we spending billions of dollars to secure China's shipping lanes?
because maintaining/disrupting trade routes impact the security/stability position of entire regions (where we have interests).
because our navy uses the same trade routes Chinese cargo ships.
The Houthis are Shiites. They are a proxy of Iran, who seeks destabilize the Saudi Arabian peninsula, which:
-- Diminishes Saudi power
-- Shuts down Red Sea trade routes, which diminishes everyone who needs those trade routes
-- Strengthens Iranian soft power (if you defy Teheran, Teheran will deny you transit of the Red Sea)
-- Prevents Iran from being shut out of direct sea routes to the eastern Med (which allows them to pose flanking threats to a number of their geopolitical rivals - chiefly Turkey (with whom they have a land border) but also Israel and Egypt).
--Enables Iranian naval assets in the Med to counter Turkish support of Azerbaijan (who are fellow turks and also have a land border with Iran).
--Enables Iranian naval assets in the Med to have access to the Black Sea, to counter Turkey by supporting Armenia (who exists in constant tension with Turkey and Azerbaijan and typically looks to Iran for support).
And then there's this: 20% of international container shipping transits the Red Sea. Shut off that level of trade, and global recession looms. Global recession is a brake on US economic growth. And Iran is using the Houthis to do exactly that - attempt to shut down Red Sea trade routes. To the extent China is allied with Iran, Iranian support for Houthis is supportive of Chinese policy - to defend Chinese trade thru the Red Sea, or to afford Chinese ability to influence (facilitate or deny) the trade of others thru the Red Sea (Chinese soft power.....)
To the extent one thinks Iran is a problem, then one has an interest in what they are doing in the Red Sea.
Allowing the precedent to stand that a minor power can hold trade routes hostage would encourage other countries to consider such policies to strengthen their power.
(....just for starters....)
If supporting Iran ensures Armenia, the only remaining Christian country in the middle east, survives then let the houthis and Iran control the Red Sea.
I support the Armenians and all the rest of the scattered and beaten ME Christians.
A) Religious similarities matter.
B) Ethnic/linguistic similarities matter.
C) Ideological similarities matter.
D) But NOTHING matters more than geography.
E) And Armenia's geography FORCE it to look to Iran (and Russia) for assistance.
F) That, in turn, often puts Armenian interests at odds with Israel.
Your policy is, and there's no polite way to say it, childish, Idiotic, etc..... You are letting A drive everything, everywhere, no matter what the consequences.
Your policy misses basic facts, too. Armenia is not a Middle Eastern country. It is in the Caucasus, sandwiched in a shatterzone BETWEEN the middle east and Eurasia, as well as between three major powers - Turkey, Iran, Russia. If the Armenians were muslims, their lot would be quite a bit more simple. But they're not. They're Christians wedged in between a major power (Turkey) and a minor power (Azerbaijan), which have A & B in common, both relative to each other and to other greater powers. That forces the Armenians to look elsewhere for support, and there are two major options - Russia and Iran. Now I, too, am favorably inclined to support a Christian nations in the situation Armenia faces. See "A" above. But rather than let that one issue drive the entirety of US policy in the Europe and the Middle East (and surrounding seas & gulfs), I would lean on quiet diplomacy and (more importantly) on intelligence liaison to further US policy interests. I would give Armenia a little foreign aid (we can debate pros/cons on specifics), but I would spend a lot more time & effort recruiting Armenian intel officers who liaise with Russian & Iranian intel agencies (as a way of gaining intel on Russian & Iranian plans/policies/intentions in the region). In other words, I can't change A-D above, but I can exploit it to my advantage as best as possible.
That's how you do it. You have to accept the realities on the ground and use the forces of gravity (A-D) to push your interests as best as you can. Armenia will always, always, always be forced to attend to the foreign policy concerns of Russia and Iran, because Russia and Iran are the only ones who have any serious incentive to help them resist Turkey. And Turkey is OUR ally against Iran & Russia. So despite whatever concerns I might have about Turkish intentions in the region (which are not seamlessly allied with ours), I have to manage things well enough to keep them lined up on our side on the major issues (Russia, Iran). THAT'S how I help Armenia. If I do too much directly, I end up at odds with a long list of more useful relationships. So I use other options to keep Turkey in check....to make Turkey calculate that it's in their interest not to beat up on Armenia too much for fear of provoking us to more forcefully engage to resist their interests elsewhere.
how do we do that, some might ask? (not you...you've already stuck your head in the sand....) Simple. You make sure the King of Jordan takes your calls (because Jordan is in the Mesopotamian shatterzone between Iran, Turkey, Saudi, and Egypt). You make sure you are on very good terms with the Egyptians and Saudis (who are highly motivated to resist Turkish expansion). And......(here's the part where your start frothing at the mouth).....you maintain very good relations with Israel, a highly capable Western country facing the exact same kinds of pressures Armenia is facing (isolated among hostiles). Look at what Israel is doing in Syria (degrading Syrian regime military assets, moving into Druze areas to establish a protectorate, etc....) Rarely does one have a better ally than a country surrounded by hostiles.
If there's one thing Israel, Jordan, Saudi, and Egypt are completely of one mind about, it's to stop the expansion of Turkish (or Iranian) power. Our interests are in line with theirs. Our policy flows thusly. But who's going to do the grunt work on that? Israel. You can hate them all you want, but they are the single best foreign policy investment we've ever made.
The Saudis and Egyptians are willing to put aside their aversion to Israel in order to further larger interests. Why can't you do the same?
ron.reagan said:What national interests does Hungary prioritize?Assassin said:11. Hungary prioritizes national interests over globalist policies.
— Culture Explorer (@CultureExploreX) March 21, 2025
All European Union nations but Hungary signed a joint statement on March 6th, 2025, backing Ukraine, the second time in a month that Budapest was the bloc’s sole member to decline to sign such a statement of… pic.twitter.com/3oEMwvcmyq
LOL. Nope. Rising generations will see what prior generations have seen and continue to support Israel = nothing furthers US policy in the region more than strong support for Israel.The_barBEARian said:whiterock said:LOL I wasn't advocating American support or opposition for Armenia. I was merely pointing out that you are completely blind to the realities of geopolitics.The_barBEARian said:whiterock said:because disruptions in trade to our trade partners have not inconsiderable ripple effects on us.The_barBEARian said:Redbrickbear said:ron.reagan said:
I see no benefit from bombing Yemen. It's like trying to dry up a river with a towel instead of fixing the dam. Most of the ignorant ****s there have such a **** life I can hardly blame them for just wanting to see the world burn
"If you kill enough of them, they stop fighting "- Curtis LeMay
They will in fact get tired of being bombed and have special forces raids kill lots of them and cost them money
And denying them a long term occupation also denies them easy American targets and internet propaganda videos when they blow up a unlucky army vehicle
Massie put out an interesting tweet that the United States isnt even in the top 5 countries who transport the most cargo through the Red Sea.
that is a true but misleading statistic. We are 2% of TOTAL global export shipments by sea (and a slightly larger share of global import shipments by sea).
The top transporter is China. So why are we spending billions of dollars to secure China's shipping lanes?
because maintaining/disrupting trade routes impact the security/stability position of entire regions (where we have interests).
because our navy uses the same trade routes Chinese cargo ships.
The Houthis are Shiites. They are a proxy of Iran, who seeks destabilize the Saudi Arabian peninsula, which:
-- Diminishes Saudi power
-- Shuts down Red Sea trade routes, which diminishes everyone who needs those trade routes
-- Strengthens Iranian soft power (if you defy Teheran, Teheran will deny you transit of the Red Sea)
-- Prevents Iran from being shut out of direct sea routes to the eastern Med (which allows them to pose flanking threats to a number of their geopolitical rivals - chiefly Turkey (with whom they have a land border) but also Israel and Egypt).
--Enables Iranian naval assets in the Med to counter Turkish support of Azerbaijan (who are fellow turks and also have a land border with Iran).
--Enables Iranian naval assets in the Med to have access to the Black Sea, to counter Turkey by supporting Armenia (who exists in constant tension with Turkey and Azerbaijan and typically looks to Iran for support).
And then there's this: 20% of international container shipping transits the Red Sea. Shut off that level of trade, and global recession looms. Global recession is a brake on US economic growth. And Iran is using the Houthis to do exactly that - attempt to shut down Red Sea trade routes. To the extent China is allied with Iran, Iranian support for Houthis is supportive of Chinese policy - to defend Chinese trade thru the Red Sea, or to afford Chinese ability to influence (facilitate or deny) the trade of others thru the Red Sea (Chinese soft power.....)
To the extent one thinks Iran is a problem, then one has an interest in what they are doing in the Red Sea.
Allowing the precedent to stand that a minor power can hold trade routes hostage would encourage other countries to consider such policies to strengthen their power.
(....just for starters....)
If supporting Iran ensures Armenia, the only remaining Christian country in the middle east, survives then let the houthis and Iran control the Red Sea.
I support the Armenians and all the rest of the scattered and beaten ME Christians.
A) Religious similarities matter.
B) Ethnic/linguistic similarities matter.
C) Ideological similarities matter.
D) But NOTHING matters more than geography.
E) And Armenia's geography FORCE it to look to Iran (and Russia) for assistance.
F) That, in turn, often puts Armenian interests at odds with Israel.
Your policy is, and there's no polite way to say it, childish, Idiotic, etc..... You are letting A drive everything, everywhere, no matter what the consequences.
Your policy misses basic facts, too. Armenia is not a Middle Eastern country. It is in the Caucasus, sandwiched in a shatterzone BETWEEN the middle east and Eurasia, as well as between three major powers - Turkey, Iran, Russia. If the Armenians were muslims, their lot would be quite a bit more simple. But they're not. They're Christians wedged in between a major power (Turkey) and a minor power (Azerbaijan), which have A & B in common, both relative to each other and to other greater powers. That forces the Armenians to look elsewhere for support, and there are two major options - Russia and Iran. Now I, too, am favorably inclined to support a Christian nations in the situation Armenia faces. See "A" above. But rather than let that one issue drive the entirety of US policy in the Europe and the Middle East (and surrounding seas & gulfs), I would lean on quiet diplomacy and (more importantly) on intelligence liaison to further US policy interests. I would give Armenia a little foreign aid (we can debate pros/cons on specifics), but I would spend a lot more time & effort recruiting Armenian intel officers who liaise with Russian & Iranian intel agencies (as a way of gaining intel on Russian & Iranian plans/policies/intentions in the region). In other words, I can't change A-D above, but I can exploit it to my advantage as best as possible.
That's how you do it. You have to accept the realities on the ground and use the forces of gravity (A-D) to push your interests as best as you can. Armenia will always, always, always be forced to attend to the foreign policy concerns of Russia and Iran, because Russia and Iran are the only ones who have any serious incentive to help them resist Turkey. And Turkey is OUR ally against Iran & Russia. So despite whatever concerns I might have about Turkish intentions in the region (which are not seamlessly allied with ours), I have to manage things well enough to keep them lined up on our side on the major issues (Russia, Iran). THAT'S how I help Armenia. If I do too much directly, I end up at odds with a long list of more useful relationships. So I use other options to keep Turkey in check....to make Turkey calculate that it's in their interest not to beat up on Armenia too much for fear of provoking us to more forcefully engage to resist their interests elsewhere.
how do we do that, some might ask? (not you...you've already stuck your head in the sand....) Simple. You make sure the King of Jordan takes your calls (because Jordan is in the Mesopotamian shatterzone between Iran, Turkey, Saudi, and Egypt). You make sure you are on very good terms with the Egyptians and Saudis (who are highly motivated to resist Turkish expansion). And......(here's the part where your start frothing at the mouth).....you maintain very good relations with Israel, a highly capable Western country facing the exact same kinds of pressures Armenia is facing (isolated among hostiles). Look at what Israel is doing in Syria (degrading Syrian regime military assets, moving into Druze areas to establish a protectorate, etc....) Rarely does one have a better ally than a country surrounded by hostiles.
If there's one thing Israel, Jordan, Saudi, and Egypt are completely of one mind about, it's to stop the expansion of Turkish (or Iranian) power. Our interests are in line with theirs. Our policy flows thusly. But who's going to do the grunt work on that? Israel. You can hate them all you want, but they are the single best foreign policy investment we've ever made.
The Saudis and Egyptians are willing to put aside their aversion to Israel in order to further larger interests. Why can't you do the same?
Because they are getting paid with a lot of my tax dollars to do so. If American Jews pooled their own money to bribe these nations I would have zero objections. But Israel has made an enemy of me by interfering in American elections and bankrupting my country. I grew up completely agnostic towards Israel and may have even leaned slightly in favor of them until I started discovering all the treacherous actions they have committed against us and the mendacious lies they propagandize the American public.
There is a major generational shift coming and most Americans under 40 do not support Israel.
Eh that's not really the issue.whiterock said:LOL. Nope. Rising generations will see what prior generations have seen and continue to support Israel = nothing furthers US policy in the region more than strong support for Israel.The_barBEARian said:whiterock said:LOL I wasn't advocating American support or opposition for Armenia. I was merely pointing out that you are completely blind to the realities of geopolitics.The_barBEARian said:whiterock said:because disruptions in trade to our trade partners have not inconsiderable ripple effects on us.The_barBEARian said:Redbrickbear said:ron.reagan said:
I see no benefit from bombing Yemen. It's like trying to dry up a river with a towel instead of fixing the dam. Most of the ignorant ****s there have such a **** life I can hardly blame them for just wanting to see the world burn
"If you kill enough of them, they stop fighting "- Curtis LeMay
They will in fact get tired of being bombed and have special forces raids kill lots of them and cost them money
And denying them a long term occupation also denies them easy American targets and internet propaganda videos when they blow up a unlucky army vehicle
Massie put out an interesting tweet that the United States isnt even in the top 5 countries who transport the most cargo through the Red Sea.
that is a true but misleading statistic. We are 2% of TOTAL global export shipments by sea (and a slightly larger share of global import shipments by sea).
The top transporter is China. So why are we spending billions of dollars to secure China's shipping lanes?
because maintaining/disrupting trade routes impact the security/stability position of entire regions (where we have interests).
because our navy uses the same trade routes Chinese cargo ships.
The Houthis are Shiites. They are a proxy of Iran, who seeks destabilize the Saudi Arabian peninsula, which:
-- Diminishes Saudi power
-- Shuts down Red Sea trade routes, which diminishes everyone who needs those trade routes
-- Strengthens Iranian soft power (if you defy Teheran, Teheran will deny you transit of the Red Sea)
-- Prevents Iran from being shut out of direct sea routes to the eastern Med (which allows them to pose flanking threats to a number of their geopolitical rivals - chiefly Turkey (with whom they have a land border) but also Israel and Egypt).
--Enables Iranian naval assets in the Med to counter Turkish support of Azerbaijan (who are fellow turks and also have a land border with Iran).
--Enables Iranian naval assets in the Med to have access to the Black Sea, to counter Turkey by supporting Armenia (who exists in constant tension with Turkey and Azerbaijan and typically looks to Iran for support).
And then there's this: 20% of international container shipping transits the Red Sea. Shut off that level of trade, and global recession looms. Global recession is a brake on US economic growth. And Iran is using the Houthis to do exactly that - attempt to shut down Red Sea trade routes. To the extent China is allied with Iran, Iranian support for Houthis is supportive of Chinese policy - to defend Chinese trade thru the Red Sea, or to afford Chinese ability to influence (facilitate or deny) the trade of others thru the Red Sea (Chinese soft power.....)
To the extent one thinks Iran is a problem, then one has an interest in what they are doing in the Red Sea.
Allowing the precedent to stand that a minor power can hold trade routes hostage would encourage other countries to consider such policies to strengthen their power.
(....just for starters....)
If supporting Iran ensures Armenia, the only remaining Christian country in the middle east, survives then let the houthis and Iran control the Red Sea.
I support the Armenians and all the rest of the scattered and beaten ME Christians.
A) Religious similarities matter.
B) Ethnic/linguistic similarities matter.
C) Ideological similarities matter.
D) But NOTHING matters more than geography.
E) And Armenia's geography FORCE it to look to Iran (and Russia) for assistance.
F) That, in turn, often puts Armenian interests at odds with Israel.
Your policy is, and there's no polite way to say it, childish, Idiotic, etc..... You are letting A drive everything, everywhere, no matter what the consequences.
Your policy misses basic facts, too. Armenia is not a Middle Eastern country. It is in the Caucasus, sandwiched in a shatterzone BETWEEN the middle east and Eurasia, as well as between three major powers - Turkey, Iran, Russia. If the Armenians were muslims, their lot would be quite a bit more simple. But they're not. They're Christians wedged in between a major power (Turkey) and a minor power (Azerbaijan), which have A & B in common, both relative to each other and to other greater powers. That forces the Armenians to look elsewhere for support, and there are two major options - Russia and Iran. Now I, too, am favorably inclined to support a Christian nations in the situation Armenia faces. See "A" above. But rather than let that one issue drive the entirety of US policy in the Europe and the Middle East (and surrounding seas & gulfs), I would lean on quiet diplomacy and (more importantly) on intelligence liaison to further US policy interests. I would give Armenia a little foreign aid (we can debate pros/cons on specifics), but I would spend a lot more time & effort recruiting Armenian intel officers who liaise with Russian & Iranian intel agencies (as a way of gaining intel on Russian & Iranian plans/policies/intentions in the region). In other words, I can't change A-D above, but I can exploit it to my advantage as best as possible.
That's how you do it. You have to accept the realities on the ground and use the forces of gravity (A-D) to push your interests as best as you can. Armenia will always, always, always be forced to attend to the foreign policy concerns of Russia and Iran, because Russia and Iran are the only ones who have any serious incentive to help them resist Turkey. And Turkey is OUR ally against Iran & Russia. So despite whatever concerns I might have about Turkish intentions in the region (which are not seamlessly allied with ours), I have to manage things well enough to keep them lined up on our side on the major issues (Russia, Iran). THAT'S how I help Armenia. If I do too much directly, I end up at odds with a long list of more useful relationships. So I use other options to keep Turkey in check....to make Turkey calculate that it's in their interest not to beat up on Armenia too much for fear of provoking us to more forcefully engage to resist their interests elsewhere.
how do we do that, some might ask? (not you...you've already stuck your head in the sand....) Simple. You make sure the King of Jordan takes your calls (because Jordan is in the Mesopotamian shatterzone between Iran, Turkey, Saudi, and Egypt). You make sure you are on very good terms with the Egyptians and Saudis (who are highly motivated to resist Turkish expansion). And......(here's the part where your start frothing at the mouth).....you maintain very good relations with Israel, a highly capable Western country facing the exact same kinds of pressures Armenia is facing (isolated among hostiles). Look at what Israel is doing in Syria (degrading Syrian regime military assets, moving into Druze areas to establish a protectorate, etc....) Rarely does one have a better ally than a country surrounded by hostiles.
If there's one thing Israel, Jordan, Saudi, and Egypt are completely of one mind about, it's to stop the expansion of Turkish (or Iranian) power. Our interests are in line with theirs. Our policy flows thusly. But who's going to do the grunt work on that? Israel. You can hate them all you want, but they are the single best foreign policy investment we've ever made.
The Saudis and Egyptians are willing to put aside their aversion to Israel in order to further larger interests. Why can't you do the same?
Because they are getting paid with a lot of my tax dollars to do so. If American Jews pooled their own money to bribe these nations I would have zero objections. But Israel has made an enemy of me by interfering in American elections and bankrupting my country. I grew up completely agnostic towards Israel and may have even leaned slightly in favor of them until I started discovering all the treacherous actions they have committed against us and the mendacious lies they propagandize the American public.
There is a major generational shift coming and most Americans under 40 do not support Israel.
My goodness. I don't think I've ever seen someone use so much energy to be so completely daft.
you have blinders on. you do realize we just spent +20 years in Afghanistan, right? for what, exactly?whiterock said:thales said:whiterock said:uh, no. the taxpayers did not spend billions to foment instability in Ukraine. Russia did that. We did the exact opposite.Redbrickbear said:whiterock said:sadly, Russia did want this fight, so it landed in our lap anyway.Redbrickbear said:sombear said:Glad this guy is breaking news that was well known over 20 years ago!Redbrickbear said:USAID played a critical role in overturning the results of the 2004 Ukrainian presidential election between the pro-Western candidate, Viktor Yuschenko and pro-Russian candidate, Viktor Yanukovych. pic.twitter.com/AnbMEy85Io
— Josiah Lippincott (@jlippincott_) February 4, 2025
The fight was very much public: Russia and its allies on one wide, the Wes on the other.
.
Most Western countries in Europe never wanted this fight.
Most American either for that matter
Nor was the U.S. government open with our people that USAID and other groups were flooding Ukraine with tax payer money to support coups and regime change operations
lol Nothing landed in our lap
The powers that be in DC spent billions of tax payer dollars and 20+ years getting us into this mess
There are things to criticize about our Ukraine policy over the last 20 years. But it is silly on every level to suggest that our actions forced Russia into a just war.
we have played the aggressor for the majority of the past 90 years so who are we to talk?
that and nato has slowly expanded since is creation and the ussr and then russia has been specifically excluded from it
they feel like they are being encroached upon - and they are
it is no different than communism spreading to cuba and our government throwing a fit when it did
lol Russia is being encroached upon only on the sense the number of countries they can invade goes down when NATO expands.
whiterock said:LOL. Nope. Rising generations will see what prior generations have seen and continue to support Israel = nothing furthers US policy in the region more than strong support for Israel.The_barBEARian said:whiterock said:LOL I wasn't advocating American support or opposition for Armenia. I was merely pointing out that you are completely blind to the realities of geopolitics.The_barBEARian said:whiterock said:because disruptions in trade to our trade partners have not inconsiderable ripple effects on us.The_barBEARian said:Redbrickbear said:ron.reagan said:
I see no benefit from bombing Yemen. It's like trying to dry up a river with a towel instead of fixing the dam. Most of the ignorant ****s there have such a **** life I can hardly blame them for just wanting to see the world burn
"If you kill enough of them, they stop fighting "- Curtis LeMay
They will in fact get tired of being bombed and have special forces raids kill lots of them and cost them money
And denying them a long term occupation also denies them easy American targets and internet propaganda videos when they blow up a unlucky army vehicle
Massie put out an interesting tweet that the United States isnt even in the top 5 countries who transport the most cargo through the Red Sea.
that is a true but misleading statistic. We are 2% of TOTAL global export shipments by sea (and a slightly larger share of global import shipments by sea).
The top transporter is China. So why are we spending billions of dollars to secure China's shipping lanes?
because maintaining/disrupting trade routes impact the security/stability position of entire regions (where we have interests).
because our navy uses the same trade routes Chinese cargo ships.
The Houthis are Shiites. They are a proxy of Iran, who seeks destabilize the Saudi Arabian peninsula, which:
-- Diminishes Saudi power
-- Shuts down Red Sea trade routes, which diminishes everyone who needs those trade routes
-- Strengthens Iranian soft power (if you defy Teheran, Teheran will deny you transit of the Red Sea)
-- Prevents Iran from being shut out of direct sea routes to the eastern Med (which allows them to pose flanking threats to a number of their geopolitical rivals - chiefly Turkey (with whom they have a land border) but also Israel and Egypt).
--Enables Iranian naval assets in the Med to counter Turkish support of Azerbaijan (who are fellow turks and also have a land border with Iran).
--Enables Iranian naval assets in the Med to have access to the Black Sea, to counter Turkey by supporting Armenia (who exists in constant tension with Turkey and Azerbaijan and typically looks to Iran for support).
And then there's this: 20% of international container shipping transits the Red Sea. Shut off that level of trade, and global recession looms. Global recession is a brake on US economic growth. And Iran is using the Houthis to do exactly that - attempt to shut down Red Sea trade routes. To the extent China is allied with Iran, Iranian support for Houthis is supportive of Chinese policy - to defend Chinese trade thru the Red Sea, or to afford Chinese ability to influence (facilitate or deny) the trade of others thru the Red Sea (Chinese soft power.....)
To the extent one thinks Iran is a problem, then one has an interest in what they are doing in the Red Sea.
Allowing the precedent to stand that a minor power can hold trade routes hostage would encourage other countries to consider such policies to strengthen their power.
(....just for starters....)
If supporting Iran ensures Armenia, the only remaining Christian country in the middle east, survives then let the houthis and Iran control the Red Sea.
I support the Armenians and all the rest of the scattered and beaten ME Christians.
A) Religious similarities matter.
B) Ethnic/linguistic similarities matter.
C) Ideological similarities matter.
D) But NOTHING matters more than geography.
E) And Armenia's geography FORCE it to look to Iran (and Russia) for assistance.
F) That, in turn, often puts Armenian interests at odds with Israel.
Your policy is, and there's no polite way to say it, childish, Idiotic, etc..... You are letting A drive everything, everywhere, no matter what the consequences.
Your policy misses basic facts, too. Armenia is not a Middle Eastern country. It is in the Caucasus, sandwiched in a shatterzone BETWEEN the middle east and Eurasia, as well as between three major powers - Turkey, Iran, Russia. If the Armenians were muslims, their lot would be quite a bit more simple. But they're not. They're Christians wedged in between a major power (Turkey) and a minor power (Azerbaijan), which have A & B in common, both relative to each other and to other greater powers. That forces the Armenians to look elsewhere for support, and there are two major options - Russia and Iran. Now I, too, am favorably inclined to support a Christian nations in the situation Armenia faces. See "A" above. But rather than let that one issue drive the entirety of US policy in the Europe and the Middle East (and surrounding seas & gulfs), I would lean on quiet diplomacy and (more importantly) on intelligence liaison to further US policy interests. I would give Armenia a little foreign aid (we can debate pros/cons on specifics), but I would spend a lot more time & effort recruiting Armenian intel officers who liaise with Russian & Iranian intel agencies (as a way of gaining intel on Russian & Iranian plans/policies/intentions in the region). In other words, I can't change A-D above, but I can exploit it to my advantage as best as possible.
That's how you do it. You have to accept the realities on the ground and use the forces of gravity (A-D) to push your interests as best as you can. Armenia will always, always, always be forced to attend to the foreign policy concerns of Russia and Iran, because Russia and Iran are the only ones who have any serious incentive to help them resist Turkey. And Turkey is OUR ally against Iran & Russia. So despite whatever concerns I might have about Turkish intentions in the region (which are not seamlessly allied with ours), I have to manage things well enough to keep them lined up on our side on the major issues (Russia, Iran). THAT'S how I help Armenia. If I do too much directly, I end up at odds with a long list of more useful relationships. So I use other options to keep Turkey in check....to make Turkey calculate that it's in their interest not to beat up on Armenia too much for fear of provoking us to more forcefully engage to resist their interests elsewhere.
how do we do that, some might ask? (not you...you've already stuck your head in the sand....) Simple. You make sure the King of Jordan takes your calls (because Jordan is in the Mesopotamian shatterzone between Iran, Turkey, Saudi, and Egypt). You make sure you are on very good terms with the Egyptians and Saudis (who are highly motivated to resist Turkish expansion). And......(here's the part where your start frothing at the mouth).....you maintain very good relations with Israel, a highly capable Western country facing the exact same kinds of pressures Armenia is facing (isolated among hostiles). Look at what Israel is doing in Syria (degrading Syrian regime military assets, moving into Druze areas to establish a protectorate, etc....) Rarely does one have a better ally than a country surrounded by hostiles.
If there's one thing Israel, Jordan, Saudi, and Egypt are completely of one mind about, it's to stop the expansion of Turkish (or Iranian) power. Our interests are in line with theirs. Our policy flows thusly. But who's going to do the grunt work on that? Israel. You can hate them all you want, but they are the single best foreign policy investment we've ever made.
The Saudis and Egyptians are willing to put aside their aversion to Israel in order to further larger interests. Why can't you do the same?
Because they are getting paid with a lot of my tax dollars to do so. If American Jews pooled their own money to bribe these nations I would have zero objections. But Israel has made an enemy of me by interfering in American elections and bankrupting my country. I grew up completely agnostic towards Israel and may have even leaned slightly in favor of them until I started discovering all the treacherous actions they have committed against us and the mendacious lies they propagandize the American public.
There is a major generational shift coming and most Americans under 40 do not support Israel.
My goodness. I don't think I've ever seen someone use so much energy to be so completely daft.
You are correct. Our younger generation has been brainwashed by the leftist mediaThe_barBEARian said:whiterock said:LOL. Nope. Rising generations will see what prior generations have seen and continue to support Israel = nothing furthers US policy in the region more than strong support for Israel.The_barBEARian said:whiterock said:LOL I wasn't advocating American support or opposition for Armenia. I was merely pointing out that you are completely blind to the realities of geopolitics.The_barBEARian said:whiterock said:because disruptions in trade to our trade partners have not inconsiderable ripple effects on us.The_barBEARian said:Redbrickbear said:ron.reagan said:
I see no benefit from bombing Yemen. It's like trying to dry up a river with a towel instead of fixing the dam. Most of the ignorant ****s there have such a **** life I can hardly blame them for just wanting to see the world burn
"If you kill enough of them, they stop fighting "- Curtis LeMay
They will in fact get tired of being bombed and have special forces raids kill lots of them and cost them money
And denying them a long term occupation also denies them easy American targets and internet propaganda videos when they blow up a unlucky army vehicle
Massie put out an interesting tweet that the United States isnt even in the top 5 countries who transport the most cargo through the Red Sea.
that is a true but misleading statistic. We are 2% of TOTAL global export shipments by sea (and a slightly larger share of global import shipments by sea).
The top transporter is China. So why are we spending billions of dollars to secure China's shipping lanes?
because maintaining/disrupting trade routes impact the security/stability position of entire regions (where we have interests).
because our navy uses the same trade routes Chinese cargo ships.
The Houthis are Shiites. They are a proxy of Iran, who seeks destabilize the Saudi Arabian peninsula, which:
-- Diminishes Saudi power
-- Shuts down Red Sea trade routes, which diminishes everyone who needs those trade routes
-- Strengthens Iranian soft power (if you defy Teheran, Teheran will deny you transit of the Red Sea)
-- Prevents Iran from being shut out of direct sea routes to the eastern Med (which allows them to pose flanking threats to a number of their geopolitical rivals - chiefly Turkey (with whom they have a land border) but also Israel and Egypt).
--Enables Iranian naval assets in the Med to counter Turkish support of Azerbaijan (who are fellow turks and also have a land border with Iran).
--Enables Iranian naval assets in the Med to have access to the Black Sea, to counter Turkey by supporting Armenia (who exists in constant tension with Turkey and Azerbaijan and typically looks to Iran for support).
And then there's this: 20% of international container shipping transits the Red Sea. Shut off that level of trade, and global recession looms. Global recession is a brake on US economic growth. And Iran is using the Houthis to do exactly that - attempt to shut down Red Sea trade routes. To the extent China is allied with Iran, Iranian support for Houthis is supportive of Chinese policy - to defend Chinese trade thru the Red Sea, or to afford Chinese ability to influence (facilitate or deny) the trade of others thru the Red Sea (Chinese soft power.....)
To the extent one thinks Iran is a problem, then one has an interest in what they are doing in the Red Sea.
Allowing the precedent to stand that a minor power can hold trade routes hostage would encourage other countries to consider such policies to strengthen their power.
(....just for starters....)
If supporting Iran ensures Armenia, the only remaining Christian country in the middle east, survives then let the houthis and Iran control the Red Sea.
I support the Armenians and all the rest of the scattered and beaten ME Christians.
A) Religious similarities matter.
B) Ethnic/linguistic similarities matter.
C) Ideological similarities matter.
D) But NOTHING matters more than geography.
E) And Armenia's geography FORCE it to look to Iran (and Russia) for assistance.
F) That, in turn, often puts Armenian interests at odds with Israel.
Your policy is, and there's no polite way to say it, childish, Idiotic, etc..... You are letting A drive everything, everywhere, no matter what the consequences.
Your policy misses basic facts, too. Armenia is not a Middle Eastern country. It is in the Caucasus, sandwiched in a shatterzone BETWEEN the middle east and Eurasia, as well as between three major powers - Turkey, Iran, Russia. If the Armenians were muslims, their lot would be quite a bit more simple. But they're not. They're Christians wedged in between a major power (Turkey) and a minor power (Azerbaijan), which have A & B in common, both relative to each other and to other greater powers. That forces the Armenians to look elsewhere for support, and there are two major options - Russia and Iran. Now I, too, am favorably inclined to support a Christian nations in the situation Armenia faces. See "A" above. But rather than let that one issue drive the entirety of US policy in the Europe and the Middle East (and surrounding seas & gulfs), I would lean on quiet diplomacy and (more importantly) on intelligence liaison to further US policy interests. I would give Armenia a little foreign aid (we can debate pros/cons on specifics), but I would spend a lot more time & effort recruiting Armenian intel officers who liaise with Russian & Iranian intel agencies (as a way of gaining intel on Russian & Iranian plans/policies/intentions in the region). In other words, I can't change A-D above, but I can exploit it to my advantage as best as possible.
That's how you do it. You have to accept the realities on the ground and use the forces of gravity (A-D) to push your interests as best as you can. Armenia will always, always, always be forced to attend to the foreign policy concerns of Russia and Iran, because Russia and Iran are the only ones who have any serious incentive to help them resist Turkey. And Turkey is OUR ally against Iran & Russia. So despite whatever concerns I might have about Turkish intentions in the region (which are not seamlessly allied with ours), I have to manage things well enough to keep them lined up on our side on the major issues (Russia, Iran). THAT'S how I help Armenia. If I do too much directly, I end up at odds with a long list of more useful relationships. So I use other options to keep Turkey in check....to make Turkey calculate that it's in their interest not to beat up on Armenia too much for fear of provoking us to more forcefully engage to resist their interests elsewhere.
how do we do that, some might ask? (not you...you've already stuck your head in the sand....) Simple. You make sure the King of Jordan takes your calls (because Jordan is in the Mesopotamian shatterzone between Iran, Turkey, Saudi, and Egypt). You make sure you are on very good terms with the Egyptians and Saudis (who are highly motivated to resist Turkish expansion). And......(here's the part where your start frothing at the mouth).....you maintain very good relations with Israel, a highly capable Western country facing the exact same kinds of pressures Armenia is facing (isolated among hostiles). Look at what Israel is doing in Syria (degrading Syrian regime military assets, moving into Druze areas to establish a protectorate, etc....) Rarely does one have a better ally than a country surrounded by hostiles.
If there's one thing Israel, Jordan, Saudi, and Egypt are completely of one mind about, it's to stop the expansion of Turkish (or Iranian) power. Our interests are in line with theirs. Our policy flows thusly. But who's going to do the grunt work on that? Israel. You can hate them all you want, but they are the single best foreign policy investment we've ever made.
The Saudis and Egyptians are willing to put aside their aversion to Israel in order to further larger interests. Why can't you do the same?
Because they are getting paid with a lot of my tax dollars to do so. If American Jews pooled their own money to bribe these nations I would have zero objections. But Israel has made an enemy of me by interfering in American elections and bankrupting my country. I grew up completely agnostic towards Israel and may have even leaned slightly in favor of them until I started discovering all the treacherous actions they have committed against us and the mendacious lies they propagandize the American public.
There is a major generational shift coming and most Americans under 40 do not support Israel.
My goodness. I don't think I've ever seen someone use so much energy to be so completely daft.
You Boomers can cope and seethe.. but the data is already out there. Young Americans do not support Israel.
Assassin said:You are correct. Our younger generation has been brainwashed by the leftist mediaThe_barBEARian said:whiterock said:LOL. Nope. Rising generations will see what prior generations have seen and continue to support Israel = nothing furthers US policy in the region more than strong support for Israel.The_barBEARian said:whiterock said:LOL I wasn't advocating American support or opposition for Armenia. I was merely pointing out that you are completely blind to the realities of geopolitics.The_barBEARian said:whiterock said:because disruptions in trade to our trade partners have not inconsiderable ripple effects on us.The_barBEARian said:Redbrickbear said:ron.reagan said:
I see no benefit from bombing Yemen. It's like trying to dry up a river with a towel instead of fixing the dam. Most of the ignorant ****s there have such a **** life I can hardly blame them for just wanting to see the world burn
"If you kill enough of them, they stop fighting "- Curtis LeMay
They will in fact get tired of being bombed and have special forces raids kill lots of them and cost them money
And denying them a long term occupation also denies them easy American targets and internet propaganda videos when they blow up a unlucky army vehicle
Massie put out an interesting tweet that the United States isnt even in the top 5 countries who transport the most cargo through the Red Sea.
that is a true but misleading statistic. We are 2% of TOTAL global export shipments by sea (and a slightly larger share of global import shipments by sea).
The top transporter is China. So why are we spending billions of dollars to secure China's shipping lanes?
because maintaining/disrupting trade routes impact the security/stability position of entire regions (where we have interests).
because our navy uses the same trade routes Chinese cargo ships.
The Houthis are Shiites. They are a proxy of Iran, who seeks destabilize the Saudi Arabian peninsula, which:
-- Diminishes Saudi power
-- Shuts down Red Sea trade routes, which diminishes everyone who needs those trade routes
-- Strengthens Iranian soft power (if you defy Teheran, Teheran will deny you transit of the Red Sea)
-- Prevents Iran from being shut out of direct sea routes to the eastern Med (which allows them to pose flanking threats to a number of their geopolitical rivals - chiefly Turkey (with whom they have a land border) but also Israel and Egypt).
--Enables Iranian naval assets in the Med to counter Turkish support of Azerbaijan (who are fellow turks and also have a land border with Iran).
--Enables Iranian naval assets in the Med to have access to the Black Sea, to counter Turkey by supporting Armenia (who exists in constant tension with Turkey and Azerbaijan and typically looks to Iran for support).
And then there's this: 20% of international container shipping transits the Red Sea. Shut off that level of trade, and global recession looms. Global recession is a brake on US economic growth. And Iran is using the Houthis to do exactly that - attempt to shut down Red Sea trade routes. To the extent China is allied with Iran, Iranian support for Houthis is supportive of Chinese policy - to defend Chinese trade thru the Red Sea, or to afford Chinese ability to influence (facilitate or deny) the trade of others thru the Red Sea (Chinese soft power.....)
To the extent one thinks Iran is a problem, then one has an interest in what they are doing in the Red Sea.
Allowing the precedent to stand that a minor power can hold trade routes hostage would encourage other countries to consider such policies to strengthen their power.
(....just for starters....)
If supporting Iran ensures Armenia, the only remaining Christian country in the middle east, survives then let the houthis and Iran control the Red Sea.
I support the Armenians and all the rest of the scattered and beaten ME Christians.
A) Religious similarities matter.
B) Ethnic/linguistic similarities matter.
C) Ideological similarities matter.
D) But NOTHING matters more than geography.
E) And Armenia's geography FORCE it to look to Iran (and Russia) for assistance.
F) That, in turn, often puts Armenian interests at odds with Israel.
Your policy is, and there's no polite way to say it, childish, Idiotic, etc..... You are letting A drive everything, everywhere, no matter what the consequences.
Your policy misses basic facts, too. Armenia is not a Middle Eastern country. It is in the Caucasus, sandwiched in a shatterzone BETWEEN the middle east and Eurasia, as well as between three major powers - Turkey, Iran, Russia. If the Armenians were muslims, their lot would be quite a bit more simple. But they're not. They're Christians wedged in between a major power (Turkey) and a minor power (Azerbaijan), which have A & B in common, both relative to each other and to other greater powers. That forces the Armenians to look elsewhere for support, and there are two major options - Russia and Iran. Now I, too, am favorably inclined to support a Christian nations in the situation Armenia faces. See "A" above. But rather than let that one issue drive the entirety of US policy in the Europe and the Middle East (and surrounding seas & gulfs), I would lean on quiet diplomacy and (more importantly) on intelligence liaison to further US policy interests. I would give Armenia a little foreign aid (we can debate pros/cons on specifics), but I would spend a lot more time & effort recruiting Armenian intel officers who liaise with Russian & Iranian intel agencies (as a way of gaining intel on Russian & Iranian plans/policies/intentions in the region). In other words, I can't change A-D above, but I can exploit it to my advantage as best as possible.
That's how you do it. You have to accept the realities on the ground and use the forces of gravity (A-D) to push your interests as best as you can. Armenia will always, always, always be forced to attend to the foreign policy concerns of Russia and Iran, because Russia and Iran are the only ones who have any serious incentive to help them resist Turkey. And Turkey is OUR ally against Iran & Russia. So despite whatever concerns I might have about Turkish intentions in the region (which are not seamlessly allied with ours), I have to manage things well enough to keep them lined up on our side on the major issues (Russia, Iran). THAT'S how I help Armenia. If I do too much directly, I end up at odds with a long list of more useful relationships. So I use other options to keep Turkey in check....to make Turkey calculate that it's in their interest not to beat up on Armenia too much for fear of provoking us to more forcefully engage to resist their interests elsewhere.
how do we do that, some might ask? (not you...you've already stuck your head in the sand....) Simple. You make sure the King of Jordan takes your calls (because Jordan is in the Mesopotamian shatterzone between Iran, Turkey, Saudi, and Egypt). You make sure you are on very good terms with the Egyptians and Saudis (who are highly motivated to resist Turkish expansion). And......(here's the part where your start frothing at the mouth).....you maintain very good relations with Israel, a highly capable Western country facing the exact same kinds of pressures Armenia is facing (isolated among hostiles). Look at what Israel is doing in Syria (degrading Syrian regime military assets, moving into Druze areas to establish a protectorate, etc....) Rarely does one have a better ally than a country surrounded by hostiles.
If there's one thing Israel, Jordan, Saudi, and Egypt are completely of one mind about, it's to stop the expansion of Turkish (or Iranian) power. Our interests are in line with theirs. Our policy flows thusly. But who's going to do the grunt work on that? Israel. You can hate them all you want, but they are the single best foreign policy investment we've ever made.
The Saudis and Egyptians are willing to put aside their aversion to Israel in order to further larger interests. Why can't you do the same?
Because they are getting paid with a lot of my tax dollars to do so. If American Jews pooled their own money to bribe these nations I would have zero objections. But Israel has made an enemy of me by interfering in American elections and bankrupting my country. I grew up completely agnostic towards Israel and may have even leaned slightly in favor of them until I started discovering all the treacherous actions they have committed against us and the mendacious lies they propagandize the American public.
There is a major generational shift coming and most Americans under 40 do not support Israel.
My goodness. I don't think I've ever seen someone use so much energy to be so completely daft.
You Boomers can cope and seethe.. but the data is already out there. Young Americans do not support Israel.
The media is controlled by a single Jew, George Soros. He who worked for the Nazi's in WWII per his own words on 60 minutes. He has paid off the unions were the editors, pressmen and so forth work. He owns them along with several hundred radio and TV stations. And he is not pro-IsraelThe_barBEARian said:The media is controlled by Jews who support Israel.Assassin said:You are correct. Our younger generation has been brainwashed by the leftist mediaThe_barBEARian said:whiterock said:LOL. Nope. Rising generations will see what prior generations have seen and continue to support Israel = nothing furthers US policy in the region more than strong support for Israel.The_barBEARian said:whiterock said:LOL I wasn't advocating American support or opposition for Armenia. I was merely pointing out that you are completely blind to the realities of geopolitics.The_barBEARian said:whiterock said:because disruptions in trade to our trade partners have not inconsiderable ripple effects on us.The_barBEARian said:Redbrickbear said:ron.reagan said:
I see no benefit from bombing Yemen. It's like trying to dry up a river with a towel instead of fixing the dam. Most of the ignorant ****s there have such a **** life I can hardly blame them for just wanting to see the world burn
"If you kill enough of them, they stop fighting "- Curtis LeMay
They will in fact get tired of being bombed and have special forces raids kill lots of them and cost them money
And denying them a long term occupation also denies them easy American targets and internet propaganda videos when they blow up a unlucky army vehicle
Massie put out an interesting tweet that the United States isnt even in the top 5 countries who transport the most cargo through the Red Sea.
that is a true but misleading statistic. We are 2% of TOTAL global export shipments by sea (and a slightly larger share of global import shipments by sea).
The top transporter is China. So why are we spending billions of dollars to secure China's shipping lanes?
because maintaining/disrupting trade routes impact the security/stability position of entire regions (where we have interests).
because our navy uses the same trade routes Chinese cargo ships.
The Houthis are Shiites. They are a proxy of Iran, who seeks destabilize the Saudi Arabian peninsula, which:
-- Diminishes Saudi power
-- Shuts down Red Sea trade routes, which diminishes everyone who needs those trade routes
-- Strengthens Iranian soft power (if you defy Teheran, Teheran will deny you transit of the Red Sea)
-- Prevents Iran from being shut out of direct sea routes to the eastern Med (which allows them to pose flanking threats to a number of their geopolitical rivals - chiefly Turkey (with whom they have a land border) but also Israel and Egypt).
--Enables Iranian naval assets in the Med to counter Turkish support of Azerbaijan (who are fellow turks and also have a land border with Iran).
--Enables Iranian naval assets in the Med to have access to the Black Sea, to counter Turkey by supporting Armenia (who exists in constant tension with Turkey and Azerbaijan and typically looks to Iran for support).
And then there's this: 20% of international container shipping transits the Red Sea. Shut off that level of trade, and global recession looms. Global recession is a brake on US economic growth. And Iran is using the Houthis to do exactly that - attempt to shut down Red Sea trade routes. To the extent China is allied with Iran, Iranian support for Houthis is supportive of Chinese policy - to defend Chinese trade thru the Red Sea, or to afford Chinese ability to influence (facilitate or deny) the trade of others thru the Red Sea (Chinese soft power.....)
To the extent one thinks Iran is a problem, then one has an interest in what they are doing in the Red Sea.
Allowing the precedent to stand that a minor power can hold trade routes hostage would encourage other countries to consider such policies to strengthen their power.
(....just for starters....)
If supporting Iran ensures Armenia, the only remaining Christian country in the middle east, survives then let the houthis and Iran control the Red Sea.
I support the Armenians and all the rest of the scattered and beaten ME Christians.
A) Religious similarities matter.
B) Ethnic/linguistic similarities matter.
C) Ideological similarities matter.
D) But NOTHING matters more than geography.
E) And Armenia's geography FORCE it to look to Iran (and Russia) for assistance.
F) That, in turn, often puts Armenian interests at odds with Israel.
Your policy is, and there's no polite way to say it, childish, Idiotic, etc..... You are letting A drive everything, everywhere, no matter what the consequences.
Your policy misses basic facts, too. Armenia is not a Middle Eastern country. It is in the Caucasus, sandwiched in a shatterzone BETWEEN the middle east and Eurasia, as well as between three major powers - Turkey, Iran, Russia. If the Armenians were muslims, their lot would be quite a bit more simple. But they're not. They're Christians wedged in between a major power (Turkey) and a minor power (Azerbaijan), which have A & B in common, both relative to each other and to other greater powers. That forces the Armenians to look elsewhere for support, and there are two major options - Russia and Iran. Now I, too, am favorably inclined to support a Christian nations in the situation Armenia faces. See "A" above. But rather than let that one issue drive the entirety of US policy in the Europe and the Middle East (and surrounding seas & gulfs), I would lean on quiet diplomacy and (more importantly) on intelligence liaison to further US policy interests. I would give Armenia a little foreign aid (we can debate pros/cons on specifics), but I would spend a lot more time & effort recruiting Armenian intel officers who liaise with Russian & Iranian intel agencies (as a way of gaining intel on Russian & Iranian plans/policies/intentions in the region). In other words, I can't change A-D above, but I can exploit it to my advantage as best as possible.
That's how you do it. You have to accept the realities on the ground and use the forces of gravity (A-D) to push your interests as best as you can. Armenia will always, always, always be forced to attend to the foreign policy concerns of Russia and Iran, because Russia and Iran are the only ones who have any serious incentive to help them resist Turkey. And Turkey is OUR ally against Iran & Russia. So despite whatever concerns I might have about Turkish intentions in the region (which are not seamlessly allied with ours), I have to manage things well enough to keep them lined up on our side on the major issues (Russia, Iran). THAT'S how I help Armenia. If I do too much directly, I end up at odds with a long list of more useful relationships. So I use other options to keep Turkey in check....to make Turkey calculate that it's in their interest not to beat up on Armenia too much for fear of provoking us to more forcefully engage to resist their interests elsewhere.
how do we do that, some might ask? (not you...you've already stuck your head in the sand....) Simple. You make sure the King of Jordan takes your calls (because Jordan is in the Mesopotamian shatterzone between Iran, Turkey, Saudi, and Egypt). You make sure you are on very good terms with the Egyptians and Saudis (who are highly motivated to resist Turkish expansion). And......(here's the part where your start frothing at the mouth).....you maintain very good relations with Israel, a highly capable Western country facing the exact same kinds of pressures Armenia is facing (isolated among hostiles). Look at what Israel is doing in Syria (degrading Syrian regime military assets, moving into Druze areas to establish a protectorate, etc....) Rarely does one have a better ally than a country surrounded by hostiles.
If there's one thing Israel, Jordan, Saudi, and Egypt are completely of one mind about, it's to stop the expansion of Turkish (or Iranian) power. Our interests are in line with theirs. Our policy flows thusly. But who's going to do the grunt work on that? Israel. You can hate them all you want, but they are the single best foreign policy investment we've ever made.
The Saudis and Egyptians are willing to put aside their aversion to Israel in order to further larger interests. Why can't you do the same?
Because they are getting paid with a lot of my tax dollars to do so. If American Jews pooled their own money to bribe these nations I would have zero objections. But Israel has made an enemy of me by interfering in American elections and bankrupting my country. I grew up completely agnostic towards Israel and may have even leaned slightly in favor of them until I started discovering all the treacherous actions they have committed against us and the mendacious lies they propagandize the American public.
There is a major generational shift coming and most Americans under 40 do not support Israel.
My goodness. I don't think I've ever seen someone use so much energy to be so completely daft.
You Boomers can cope and seethe.. but the data is already out there. Young Americans do not support Israel.
But young people don't pay for cable or read newspapers. They get the news from independent journalists who are a lot more fact based than CNN, FOX, NBC, CBS, NYT, Washington Post etc who have handlers at the State Department who tell them what they can and can't report.
The_barBEARian said:Assassin said:You are correct. Our younger generation has been brainwashed by the leftist mediaThe_barBEARian said:whiterock said:LOL. Nope. Rising generations will see what prior generations have seen and continue to support Israel = nothing furthers US policy in the region more than strong support for Israel.The_barBEARian said:whiterock said:LOL I wasn't advocating American support or opposition for Armenia. I was merely pointing out that you are completely blind to the realities of geopolitics.The_barBEARian said:whiterock said:because disruptions in trade to our trade partners have not inconsiderable ripple effects on us.The_barBEARian said:Redbrickbear said:ron.reagan said:
I see no benefit from bombing Yemen. It's like trying to dry up a river with a towel instead of fixing the dam. Most of the ignorant ****s there have such a **** life I can hardly blame them for just wanting to see the world burn
"If you kill enough of them, they stop fighting "- Curtis LeMay
They will in fact get tired of being bombed and have special forces raids kill lots of them and cost them money
And denying them a long term occupation also denies them easy American targets and internet propaganda videos when they blow up a unlucky army vehicle
Massie put out an interesting tweet that the United States isnt even in the top 5 countries who transport the most cargo through the Red Sea.
that is a true but misleading statistic. We are 2% of TOTAL global export shipments by sea (and a slightly larger share of global import shipments by sea).
The top transporter is China. So why are we spending billions of dollars to secure China's shipping lanes?
because maintaining/disrupting trade routes impact the security/stability position of entire regions (where we have interests).
because our navy uses the same trade routes Chinese cargo ships.
The Houthis are Shiites. They are a proxy of Iran, who seeks destabilize the Saudi Arabian peninsula, which:
-- Diminishes Saudi power
-- Shuts down Red Sea trade routes, which diminishes everyone who needs those trade routes
-- Strengthens Iranian soft power (if you defy Teheran, Teheran will deny you transit of the Red Sea)
-- Prevents Iran from being shut out of direct sea routes to the eastern Med (which allows them to pose flanking threats to a number of their geopolitical rivals - chiefly Turkey (with whom they have a land border) but also Israel and Egypt).
--Enables Iranian naval assets in the Med to counter Turkish support of Azerbaijan (who are fellow turks and also have a land border with Iran).
--Enables Iranian naval assets in the Med to have access to the Black Sea, to counter Turkey by supporting Armenia (who exists in constant tension with Turkey and Azerbaijan and typically looks to Iran for support).
And then there's this: 20% of international container shipping transits the Red Sea. Shut off that level of trade, and global recession looms. Global recession is a brake on US economic growth. And Iran is using the Houthis to do exactly that - attempt to shut down Red Sea trade routes. To the extent China is allied with Iran, Iranian support for Houthis is supportive of Chinese policy - to defend Chinese trade thru the Red Sea, or to afford Chinese ability to influence (facilitate or deny) the trade of others thru the Red Sea (Chinese soft power.....)
To the extent one thinks Iran is a problem, then one has an interest in what they are doing in the Red Sea.
Allowing the precedent to stand that a minor power can hold trade routes hostage would encourage other countries to consider such policies to strengthen their power.
(....just for starters....)
If supporting Iran ensures Armenia, the only remaining Christian country in the middle east, survives then let the houthis and Iran control the Red Sea.
I support the Armenians and all the rest of the scattered and beaten ME Christians.
A) Religious similarities matter.
B) Ethnic/linguistic similarities matter.
C) Ideological similarities matter.
D) But NOTHING matters more than geography.
E) And Armenia's geography FORCE it to look to Iran (and Russia) for assistance.
F) That, in turn, often puts Armenian interests at odds with Israel.
Your policy is, and there's no polite way to say it, childish, Idiotic, etc..... You are letting A drive everything, everywhere, no matter what the consequences.
Your policy misses basic facts, too. Armenia is not a Middle Eastern country. It is in the Caucasus, sandwiched in a shatterzone BETWEEN the middle east and Eurasia, as well as between three major powers - Turkey, Iran, Russia. If the Armenians were muslims, their lot would be quite a bit more simple. But they're not. They're Christians wedged in between a major power (Turkey) and a minor power (Azerbaijan), which have A & B in common, both relative to each other and to other greater powers. That forces the Armenians to look elsewhere for support, and there are two major options - Russia and Iran. Now I, too, am favorably inclined to support a Christian nations in the situation Armenia faces. See "A" above. But rather than let that one issue drive the entirety of US policy in the Europe and the Middle East (and surrounding seas & gulfs), I would lean on quiet diplomacy and (more importantly) on intelligence liaison to further US policy interests. I would give Armenia a little foreign aid (we can debate pros/cons on specifics), but I would spend a lot more time & effort recruiting Armenian intel officers who liaise with Russian & Iranian intel agencies (as a way of gaining intel on Russian & Iranian plans/policies/intentions in the region). In other words, I can't change A-D above, but I can exploit it to my advantage as best as possible.
That's how you do it. You have to accept the realities on the ground and use the forces of gravity (A-D) to push your interests as best as you can. Armenia will always, always, always be forced to attend to the foreign policy concerns of Russia and Iran, because Russia and Iran are the only ones who have any serious incentive to help them resist Turkey. And Turkey is OUR ally against Iran & Russia. So despite whatever concerns I might have about Turkish intentions in the region (which are not seamlessly allied with ours), I have to manage things well enough to keep them lined up on our side on the major issues (Russia, Iran). THAT'S how I help Armenia. If I do too much directly, I end up at odds with a long list of more useful relationships. So I use other options to keep Turkey in check....to make Turkey calculate that it's in their interest not to beat up on Armenia too much for fear of provoking us to more forcefully engage to resist their interests elsewhere.
how do we do that, some might ask? (not you...you've already stuck your head in the sand....) Simple. You make sure the King of Jordan takes your calls (because Jordan is in the Mesopotamian shatterzone between Iran, Turkey, Saudi, and Egypt). You make sure you are on very good terms with the Egyptians and Saudis (who are highly motivated to resist Turkish expansion). And......(here's the part where your start frothing at the mouth).....you maintain very good relations with Israel, a highly capable Western country facing the exact same kinds of pressures Armenia is facing (isolated among hostiles). Look at what Israel is doing in Syria (degrading Syrian regime military assets, moving into Druze areas to establish a protectorate, etc....) Rarely does one have a better ally than a country surrounded by hostiles.
If there's one thing Israel, Jordan, Saudi, and Egypt are completely of one mind about, it's to stop the expansion of Turkish (or Iranian) power. Our interests are in line with theirs. Our policy flows thusly. But who's going to do the grunt work on that? Israel. You can hate them all you want, but they are the single best foreign policy investment we've ever made.
The Saudis and Egyptians are willing to put aside their aversion to Israel in order to further larger interests. Why can't you do the same?
Because they are getting paid with a lot of my tax dollars to do so. If American Jews pooled their own money to bribe these nations I would have zero objections. But Israel has made an enemy of me by interfering in American elections and bankrupting my country. I grew up completely agnostic towards Israel and may have even leaned slightly in favor of them until I started discovering all the treacherous actions they have committed against us and the mendacious lies they propagandize the American public.
There is a major generational shift coming and most Americans under 40 do not support Israel.
My goodness. I don't think I've ever seen someone use so much energy to be so completely daft.
You Boomers can cope and seethe.. but the data is already out there. Young Americans do not support Israel.
The media is controlled by Jews who support Israel.
But young people don't pay for cable or read newspapers. They get the news from independent journalists who are a lot more fact based than CNN, FOX, NBC, CBS, NYT, Washington Post etc who have handlers at the State Department who tell them what they can and can't report.
The_barBEARian said:Assassin said:You are correct. Our younger generation has been brainwashed by the leftist mediaThe_barBEARian said:whiterock said:LOL. Nope. Rising generations will see what prior generations have seen and continue to support Israel = nothing furthers US policy in the region more than strong support for Israel.The_barBEARian said:whiterock said:LOL I wasn't advocating American support or opposition for Armenia. I was merely pointing out that you are completely blind to the realities of geopolitics.The_barBEARian said:whiterock said:because disruptions in trade to our trade partners have not inconsiderable ripple effects on us.The_barBEARian said:Redbrickbear said:ron.reagan said:
I see no benefit from bombing Yemen. It's like trying to dry up a river with a towel instead of fixing the dam. Most of the ignorant ****s there have such a **** life I can hardly blame them for just wanting to see the world burn
"If you kill enough of them, they stop fighting "- Curtis LeMay
They will in fact get tired of being bombed and have special forces raids kill lots of them and cost them money
And denying them a long term occupation also denies them easy American targets and internet propaganda videos when they blow up a unlucky army vehicle
Massie put out an interesting tweet that the United States isnt even in the top 5 countries who transport the most cargo through the Red Sea.
that is a true but misleading statistic. We are 2% of TOTAL global export shipments by sea (and a slightly larger share of global import shipments by sea).
The top transporter is China. So why are we spending billions of dollars to secure China's shipping lanes?
because maintaining/disrupting trade routes impact the security/stability position of entire regions (where we have interests).
because our navy uses the same trade routes Chinese cargo ships.
The Houthis are Shiites. They are a proxy of Iran, who seeks destabilize the Saudi Arabian peninsula, which:
-- Diminishes Saudi power
-- Shuts down Red Sea trade routes, which diminishes everyone who needs those trade routes
-- Strengthens Iranian soft power (if you defy Teheran, Teheran will deny you transit of the Red Sea)
-- Prevents Iran from being shut out of direct sea routes to the eastern Med (which allows them to pose flanking threats to a number of their geopolitical rivals - chiefly Turkey (with whom they have a land border) but also Israel and Egypt).
--Enables Iranian naval assets in the Med to counter Turkish support of Azerbaijan (who are fellow turks and also have a land border with Iran).
--Enables Iranian naval assets in the Med to have access to the Black Sea, to counter Turkey by supporting Armenia (who exists in constant tension with Turkey and Azerbaijan and typically looks to Iran for support).
And then there's this: 20% of international container shipping transits the Red Sea. Shut off that level of trade, and global recession looms. Global recession is a brake on US economic growth. And Iran is using the Houthis to do exactly that - attempt to shut down Red Sea trade routes. To the extent China is allied with Iran, Iranian support for Houthis is supportive of Chinese policy - to defend Chinese trade thru the Red Sea, or to afford Chinese ability to influence (facilitate or deny) the trade of others thru the Red Sea (Chinese soft power.....)
To the extent one thinks Iran is a problem, then one has an interest in what they are doing in the Red Sea.
Allowing the precedent to stand that a minor power can hold trade routes hostage would encourage other countries to consider such policies to strengthen their power.
(....just for starters....)
If supporting Iran ensures Armenia, the only remaining Christian country in the middle east, survives then let the houthis and Iran control the Red Sea.
I support the Armenians and all the rest of the scattered and beaten ME Christians.
A) Religious similarities matter.
B) Ethnic/linguistic similarities matter.
C) Ideological similarities matter.
D) But NOTHING matters more than geography.
E) And Armenia's geography FORCE it to look to Iran (and Russia) for assistance.
F) That, in turn, often puts Armenian interests at odds with Israel.
Your policy is, and there's no polite way to say it, childish, Idiotic, etc..... You are letting A drive everything, everywhere, no matter what the consequences.
Your policy misses basic facts, too. Armenia is not a Middle Eastern country. It is in the Caucasus, sandwiched in a shatterzone BETWEEN the middle east and Eurasia, as well as between three major powers - Turkey, Iran, Russia. If the Armenians were muslims, their lot would be quite a bit more simple. But they're not. They're Christians wedged in between a major power (Turkey) and a minor power (Azerbaijan), which have A & B in common, both relative to each other and to other greater powers. That forces the Armenians to look elsewhere for support, and there are two major options - Russia and Iran. Now I, too, am favorably inclined to support a Christian nations in the situation Armenia faces. See "A" above. But rather than let that one issue drive the entirety of US policy in the Europe and the Middle East (and surrounding seas & gulfs), I would lean on quiet diplomacy and (more importantly) on intelligence liaison to further US policy interests. I would give Armenia a little foreign aid (we can debate pros/cons on specifics), but I would spend a lot more time & effort recruiting Armenian intel officers who liaise with Russian & Iranian intel agencies (as a way of gaining intel on Russian & Iranian plans/policies/intentions in the region). In other words, I can't change A-D above, but I can exploit it to my advantage as best as possible.
That's how you do it. You have to accept the realities on the ground and use the forces of gravity (A-D) to push your interests as best as you can. Armenia will always, always, always be forced to attend to the foreign policy concerns of Russia and Iran, because Russia and Iran are the only ones who have any serious incentive to help them resist Turkey. And Turkey is OUR ally against Iran & Russia. So despite whatever concerns I might have about Turkish intentions in the region (which are not seamlessly allied with ours), I have to manage things well enough to keep them lined up on our side on the major issues (Russia, Iran). THAT'S how I help Armenia. If I do too much directly, I end up at odds with a long list of more useful relationships. So I use other options to keep Turkey in check....to make Turkey calculate that it's in their interest not to beat up on Armenia too much for fear of provoking us to more forcefully engage to resist their interests elsewhere.
how do we do that, some might ask? (not you...you've already stuck your head in the sand....) Simple. You make sure the King of Jordan takes your calls (because Jordan is in the Mesopotamian shatterzone between Iran, Turkey, Saudi, and Egypt). You make sure you are on very good terms with the Egyptians and Saudis (who are highly motivated to resist Turkish expansion). And......(here's the part where your start frothing at the mouth).....you maintain very good relations with Israel, a highly capable Western country facing the exact same kinds of pressures Armenia is facing (isolated among hostiles). Look at what Israel is doing in Syria (degrading Syrian regime military assets, moving into Druze areas to establish a protectorate, etc....) Rarely does one have a better ally than a country surrounded by hostiles.
If there's one thing Israel, Jordan, Saudi, and Egypt are completely of one mind about, it's to stop the expansion of Turkish (or Iranian) power. Our interests are in line with theirs. Our policy flows thusly. But who's going to do the grunt work on that? Israel. You can hate them all you want, but they are the single best foreign policy investment we've ever made.
The Saudis and Egyptians are willing to put aside their aversion to Israel in order to further larger interests. Why can't you do the same?
Because they are getting paid with a lot of my tax dollars to do so. If American Jews pooled their own money to bribe these nations I would have zero objections. But Israel has made an enemy of me by interfering in American elections and bankrupting my country. I grew up completely agnostic towards Israel and may have even leaned slightly in favor of them until I started discovering all the treacherous actions they have committed against us and the mendacious lies they propagandize the American public.
There is a major generational shift coming and most Americans under 40 do not support Israel.
My goodness. I don't think I've ever seen someone use so much energy to be so completely daft.
You Boomers can cope and seethe.. but the data is already out there. Young Americans do not support Israel.
The media is controlled by Jews who support Israel.
But young people don't pay for cable or read newspapers. They get the news from independent journalists who are a lot more fact based than CNN, FOX, NBC, CBS, NYT, Washington Post etc who have handlers at the State Department who tell them what they can and can't report.
UKRAINE: Zelensky will not allow UN peacekeepers on the ground in Ukraine, insisting that NATO membership and NATO boots on the ground is the only way forward. pic.twitter.com/1VZ9kWPiSN
— @amuse (@amuse) March 23, 2025
Doc Holliday said:Eh that's not really the issue.whiterock said:LOL. Nope. Rising generations will see what prior generations have seen and continue to support Israel = nothing furthers US policy in the region more than strong support for Israel.The_barBEARian said:whiterock said:LOL I wasn't advocating American support or opposition for Armenia. I was merely pointing out that you are completely blind to the realities of geopolitics.The_barBEARian said:whiterock said:because disruptions in trade to our trade partners have not inconsiderable ripple effects on us.The_barBEARian said:Redbrickbear said:ron.reagan said:
I see no benefit from bombing Yemen. It's like trying to dry up a river with a towel instead of fixing the dam. Most of the ignorant ****s there have such a **** life I can hardly blame them for just wanting to see the world burn
"If you kill enough of them, they stop fighting "- Curtis LeMay
They will in fact get tired of being bombed and have special forces raids kill lots of them and cost them money
And denying them a long term occupation also denies them easy American targets and internet propaganda videos when they blow up a unlucky army vehicle
Massie put out an interesting tweet that the United States isnt even in the top 5 countries who transport the most cargo through the Red Sea.
that is a true but misleading statistic. We are 2% of TOTAL global export shipments by sea (and a slightly larger share of global import shipments by sea).
The top transporter is China. So why are we spending billions of dollars to secure China's shipping lanes?
because maintaining/disrupting trade routes impact the security/stability position of entire regions (where we have interests).
because our navy uses the same trade routes Chinese cargo ships.
The Houthis are Shiites. They are a proxy of Iran, who seeks destabilize the Saudi Arabian peninsula, which:
-- Diminishes Saudi power
-- Shuts down Red Sea trade routes, which diminishes everyone who needs those trade routes
-- Strengthens Iranian soft power (if you defy Teheran, Teheran will deny you transit of the Red Sea)
-- Prevents Iran from being shut out of direct sea routes to the eastern Med (which allows them to pose flanking threats to a number of their geopolitical rivals - chiefly Turkey (with whom they have a land border) but also Israel and Egypt).
--Enables Iranian naval assets in the Med to counter Turkish support of Azerbaijan (who are fellow turks and also have a land border with Iran).
--Enables Iranian naval assets in the Med to have access to the Black Sea, to counter Turkey by supporting Armenia (who exists in constant tension with Turkey and Azerbaijan and typically looks to Iran for support).
And then there's this: 20% of international container shipping transits the Red Sea. Shut off that level of trade, and global recession looms. Global recession is a brake on US economic growth. And Iran is using the Houthis to do exactly that - attempt to shut down Red Sea trade routes. To the extent China is allied with Iran, Iranian support for Houthis is supportive of Chinese policy - to defend Chinese trade thru the Red Sea, or to afford Chinese ability to influence (facilitate or deny) the trade of others thru the Red Sea (Chinese soft power.....)
To the extent one thinks Iran is a problem, then one has an interest in what they are doing in the Red Sea.
Allowing the precedent to stand that a minor power can hold trade routes hostage would encourage other countries to consider such policies to strengthen their power.
(....just for starters....)
If supporting Iran ensures Armenia, the only remaining Christian country in the middle east, survives then let the houthis and Iran control the Red Sea.
I support the Armenians and all the rest of the scattered and beaten ME Christians.
A) Religious similarities matter.
B) Ethnic/linguistic similarities matter.
C) Ideological similarities matter.
D) But NOTHING matters more than geography.
E) And Armenia's geography FORCE it to look to Iran (and Russia) for assistance.
F) That, in turn, often puts Armenian interests at odds with Israel.
Your policy is, and there's no polite way to say it, childish, Idiotic, etc..... You are letting A drive everything, everywhere, no matter what the consequences.
Your policy misses basic facts, too. Armenia is not a Middle Eastern country. It is in the Caucasus, sandwiched in a shatterzone BETWEEN the middle east and Eurasia, as well as between three major powers - Turkey, Iran, Russia. If the Armenians were muslims, their lot would be quite a bit more simple. But they're not. They're Christians wedged in between a major power (Turkey) and a minor power (Azerbaijan), which have A & B in common, both relative to each other and to other greater powers. That forces the Armenians to look elsewhere for support, and there are two major options - Russia and Iran. Now I, too, am favorably inclined to support a Christian nations in the situation Armenia faces. See "A" above. But rather than let that one issue drive the entirety of US policy in the Europe and the Middle East (and surrounding seas & gulfs), I would lean on quiet diplomacy and (more importantly) on intelligence liaison to further US policy interests. I would give Armenia a little foreign aid (we can debate pros/cons on specifics), but I would spend a lot more time & effort recruiting Armenian intel officers who liaise with Russian & Iranian intel agencies (as a way of gaining intel on Russian & Iranian plans/policies/intentions in the region). In other words, I can't change A-D above, but I can exploit it to my advantage as best as possible.
That's how you do it. You have to accept the realities on the ground and use the forces of gravity (A-D) to push your interests as best as you can. Armenia will always, always, always be forced to attend to the foreign policy concerns of Russia and Iran, because Russia and Iran are the only ones who have any serious incentive to help them resist Turkey. And Turkey is OUR ally against Iran & Russia. So despite whatever concerns I might have about Turkish intentions in the region (which are not seamlessly allied with ours), I have to manage things well enough to keep them lined up on our side on the major issues (Russia, Iran). THAT'S how I help Armenia. If I do too much directly, I end up at odds with a long list of more useful relationships. So I use other options to keep Turkey in check....to make Turkey calculate that it's in their interest not to beat up on Armenia too much for fear of provoking us to more forcefully engage to resist their interests elsewhere.
how do we do that, some might ask? (not you...you've already stuck your head in the sand....) Simple. You make sure the King of Jordan takes your calls (because Jordan is in the Mesopotamian shatterzone between Iran, Turkey, Saudi, and Egypt). You make sure you are on very good terms with the Egyptians and Saudis (who are highly motivated to resist Turkish expansion). And......(here's the part where your start frothing at the mouth).....you maintain very good relations with Israel, a highly capable Western country facing the exact same kinds of pressures Armenia is facing (isolated among hostiles). Look at what Israel is doing in Syria (degrading Syrian regime military assets, moving into Druze areas to establish a protectorate, etc....) Rarely does one have a better ally than a country surrounded by hostiles.
If there's one thing Israel, Jordan, Saudi, and Egypt are completely of one mind about, it's to stop the expansion of Turkish (or Iranian) power. Our interests are in line with theirs. Our policy flows thusly. But who's going to do the grunt work on that? Israel. You can hate them all you want, but they are the single best foreign policy investment we've ever made.
The Saudis and Egyptians are willing to put aside their aversion to Israel in order to further larger interests. Why can't you do the same?
Because they are getting paid with a lot of my tax dollars to do so. If American Jews pooled their own money to bribe these nations I would have zero objections. But Israel has made an enemy of me by interfering in American elections and bankrupting my country. I grew up completely agnostic towards Israel and may have even leaned slightly in favor of them until I started discovering all the treacherous actions they have committed against us and the mendacious lies they propagandize the American public.
There is a major generational shift coming and most Americans under 40 do not support Israel.
My goodness. I don't think I've ever seen someone use so much energy to be so completely daft.
People believe Israel and Jews are the ones pushing the globalist agenda, LGBT, woke, political grifting and controls our government.
I wouldn't go quite that far, but his influence on the media is profound. However, it's even greater with NGOS and elected officials. Where you are absolutely correct is that the Jews most hostile to Israel are on the left.Assassin said:The media is controlled by a single Jew, George Soros. He who worked for the Nazi's in WWII per his own words on 60 minutes. He has paid off the unions were the editors, pressmen and so forth work. He owns them along with several hundred radio and TV stations. And he is not pro-IsraelThe_barBEARian said:The media is controlled by Jews who support Israel.Assassin said:You are correct. Our younger generation has been brainwashed by the leftist mediaThe_barBEARian said:whiterock said:LOL. Nope. Rising generations will see what prior generations have seen and continue to support Israel = nothing furthers US policy in the region more than strong support for Israel.The_barBEARian said:whiterock said:LOL I wasn't advocating American support or opposition for Armenia. I was merely pointing out that you are completely blind to the realities of geopolitics.The_barBEARian said:whiterock said:because disruptions in trade to our trade partners have not inconsiderable ripple effects on us.The_barBEARian said:Redbrickbear said:ron.reagan said:
I see no benefit from bombing Yemen. It's like trying to dry up a river with a towel instead of fixing the dam. Most of the ignorant ****s there have such a **** life I can hardly blame them for just wanting to see the world burn
"If you kill enough of them, they stop fighting "- Curtis LeMay
They will in fact get tired of being bombed and have special forces raids kill lots of them and cost them money
And denying them a long term occupation also denies them easy American targets and internet propaganda videos when they blow up a unlucky army vehicle
Massie put out an interesting tweet that the United States isnt even in the top 5 countries who transport the most cargo through the Red Sea.
that is a true but misleading statistic. We are 2% of TOTAL global export shipments by sea (and a slightly larger share of global import shipments by sea).
The top transporter is China. So why are we spending billions of dollars to secure China's shipping lanes?
because maintaining/disrupting trade routes impact the security/stability position of entire regions (where we have interests).
because our navy uses the same trade routes Chinese cargo ships.
The Houthis are Shiites. They are a proxy of Iran, who seeks destabilize the Saudi Arabian peninsula, which:
-- Diminishes Saudi power
-- Shuts down Red Sea trade routes, which diminishes everyone who needs those trade routes
-- Strengthens Iranian soft power (if you defy Teheran, Teheran will deny you transit of the Red Sea)
-- Prevents Iran from being shut out of direct sea routes to the eastern Med (which allows them to pose flanking threats to a number of their geopolitical rivals - chiefly Turkey (with whom they have a land border) but also Israel and Egypt).
--Enables Iranian naval assets in the Med to counter Turkish support of Azerbaijan (who are fellow turks and also have a land border with Iran).
--Enables Iranian naval assets in the Med to have access to the Black Sea, to counter Turkey by supporting Armenia (who exists in constant tension with Turkey and Azerbaijan and typically looks to Iran for support).
And then there's this: 20% of international container shipping transits the Red Sea. Shut off that level of trade, and global recession looms. Global recession is a brake on US economic growth. And Iran is using the Houthis to do exactly that - attempt to shut down Red Sea trade routes. To the extent China is allied with Iran, Iranian support for Houthis is supportive of Chinese policy - to defend Chinese trade thru the Red Sea, or to afford Chinese ability to influence (facilitate or deny) the trade of others thru the Red Sea (Chinese soft power.....)
To the extent one thinks Iran is a problem, then one has an interest in what they are doing in the Red Sea.
Allowing the precedent to stand that a minor power can hold trade routes hostage would encourage other countries to consider such policies to strengthen their power.
(....just for starters....)
If supporting Iran ensures Armenia, the only remaining Christian country in the middle east, survives then let the houthis and Iran control the Red Sea.
I support the Armenians and all the rest of the scattered and beaten ME Christians.
A) Religious similarities matter.
B) Ethnic/linguistic similarities matter.
C) Ideological similarities matter.
D) But NOTHING matters more than geography.
E) And Armenia's geography FORCE it to look to Iran (and Russia) for assistance.
F) That, in turn, often puts Armenian interests at odds with Israel.
Your policy is, and there's no polite way to say it, childish, Idiotic, etc..... You are letting A drive everything, everywhere, no matter what the consequences.
Your policy misses basic facts, too. Armenia is not a Middle Eastern country. It is in the Caucasus, sandwiched in a shatterzone BETWEEN the middle east and Eurasia, as well as between three major powers - Turkey, Iran, Russia. If the Armenians were muslims, their lot would be quite a bit more simple. But they're not. They're Christians wedged in between a major power (Turkey) and a minor power (Azerbaijan), which have A & B in common, both relative to each other and to other greater powers. That forces the Armenians to look elsewhere for support, and there are two major options - Russia and Iran. Now I, too, am favorably inclined to support a Christian nations in the situation Armenia faces. See "A" above. But rather than let that one issue drive the entirety of US policy in the Europe and the Middle East (and surrounding seas & gulfs), I would lean on quiet diplomacy and (more importantly) on intelligence liaison to further US policy interests. I would give Armenia a little foreign aid (we can debate pros/cons on specifics), but I would spend a lot more time & effort recruiting Armenian intel officers who liaise with Russian & Iranian intel agencies (as a way of gaining intel on Russian & Iranian plans/policies/intentions in the region). In other words, I can't change A-D above, but I can exploit it to my advantage as best as possible.
That's how you do it. You have to accept the realities on the ground and use the forces of gravity (A-D) to push your interests as best as you can. Armenia will always, always, always be forced to attend to the foreign policy concerns of Russia and Iran, because Russia and Iran are the only ones who have any serious incentive to help them resist Turkey. And Turkey is OUR ally against Iran & Russia. So despite whatever concerns I might have about Turkish intentions in the region (which are not seamlessly allied with ours), I have to manage things well enough to keep them lined up on our side on the major issues (Russia, Iran). THAT'S how I help Armenia. If I do too much directly, I end up at odds with a long list of more useful relationships. So I use other options to keep Turkey in check....to make Turkey calculate that it's in their interest not to beat up on Armenia too much for fear of provoking us to more forcefully engage to resist their interests elsewhere.
how do we do that, some might ask? (not you...you've already stuck your head in the sand....) Simple. You make sure the King of Jordan takes your calls (because Jordan is in the Mesopotamian shatterzone between Iran, Turkey, Saudi, and Egypt). You make sure you are on very good terms with the Egyptians and Saudis (who are highly motivated to resist Turkish expansion). And......(here's the part where your start frothing at the mouth).....you maintain very good relations with Israel, a highly capable Western country facing the exact same kinds of pressures Armenia is facing (isolated among hostiles). Look at what Israel is doing in Syria (degrading Syrian regime military assets, moving into Druze areas to establish a protectorate, etc....) Rarely does one have a better ally than a country surrounded by hostiles.
If there's one thing Israel, Jordan, Saudi, and Egypt are completely of one mind about, it's to stop the expansion of Turkish (or Iranian) power. Our interests are in line with theirs. Our policy flows thusly. But who's going to do the grunt work on that? Israel. You can hate them all you want, but they are the single best foreign policy investment we've ever made.
The Saudis and Egyptians are willing to put aside their aversion to Israel in order to further larger interests. Why can't you do the same?
Because they are getting paid with a lot of my tax dollars to do so. If American Jews pooled their own money to bribe these nations I would have zero objections. But Israel has made an enemy of me by interfering in American elections and bankrupting my country. I grew up completely agnostic towards Israel and may have even leaned slightly in favor of them until I started discovering all the treacherous actions they have committed against us and the mendacious lies they propagandize the American public.
There is a major generational shift coming and most Americans under 40 do not support Israel.
My goodness. I don't think I've ever seen someone use so much energy to be so completely daft.
You Boomers can cope and seethe.. but the data is already out there. Young Americans do not support Israel.
But young people don't pay for cable or read newspapers. They get the news from independent journalists who are a lot more fact based than CNN, FOX, NBC, CBS, NYT, Washington Post etc who have handlers at the State Department who tell them what they can and can't report.
Unqualified support for Israel has more to do with a general disposition toward zealotry than with religion or conservatism per se. The same trait can be seen in the fundamentalist Protestants who invented Zionism (despite having little use for Jews or Judaism) and the militant secularists who established the kibbutzim. More orthodox believers often have a more skeptical view.whiterock said:I wouldn't go quite that far, but his influence on the media is profound. However, it's even greater with NGOS and elected officials. Where you are absolutely correct is that the Jews most hostile to Israel are on the left.Assassin said:The media is controlled by a single Jew, George Soros. He who worked for the Nazi's in WWII per his own words on 60 minutes. He has paid off the unions were the editors, pressmen and so forth work. He owns them along with several hundred radio and TV stations. And he is not pro-IsraelThe_barBEARian said:The media is controlled by Jews who support Israel.Assassin said:You are correct. Our younger generation has been brainwashed by the leftist mediaThe_barBEARian said:whiterock said:LOL. Nope. Rising generations will see what prior generations have seen and continue to support Israel = nothing furthers US policy in the region more than strong support for Israel.The_barBEARian said:whiterock said:LOL I wasn't advocating American support or opposition for Armenia. I was merely pointing out that you are completely blind to the realities of geopolitics.The_barBEARian said:whiterock said:because disruptions in trade to our trade partners have not inconsiderable ripple effects on us.The_barBEARian said:Redbrickbear said:ron.reagan said:
I see no benefit from bombing Yemen. It's like trying to dry up a river with a towel instead of fixing the dam. Most of the ignorant ****s there have such a **** life I can hardly blame them for just wanting to see the world burn
"If you kill enough of them, they stop fighting "- Curtis LeMay
They will in fact get tired of being bombed and have special forces raids kill lots of them and cost them money
And denying them a long term occupation also denies them easy American targets and internet propaganda videos when they blow up a unlucky army vehicle
Massie put out an interesting tweet that the United States isnt even in the top 5 countries who transport the most cargo through the Red Sea.
that is a true but misleading statistic. We are 2% of TOTAL global export shipments by sea (and a slightly larger share of global import shipments by sea).
The top transporter is China. So why are we spending billions of dollars to secure China's shipping lanes?
because maintaining/disrupting trade routes impact the security/stability position of entire regions (where we have interests).
because our navy uses the same trade routes Chinese cargo ships.
The Houthis are Shiites. They are a proxy of Iran, who seeks destabilize the Saudi Arabian peninsula, which:
-- Diminishes Saudi power
-- Shuts down Red Sea trade routes, which diminishes everyone who needs those trade routes
-- Strengthens Iranian soft power (if you defy Teheran, Teheran will deny you transit of the Red Sea)
-- Prevents Iran from being shut out of direct sea routes to the eastern Med (which allows them to pose flanking threats to a number of their geopolitical rivals - chiefly Turkey (with whom they have a land border) but also Israel and Egypt).
--Enables Iranian naval assets in the Med to counter Turkish support of Azerbaijan (who are fellow turks and also have a land border with Iran).
--Enables Iranian naval assets in the Med to have access to the Black Sea, to counter Turkey by supporting Armenia (who exists in constant tension with Turkey and Azerbaijan and typically looks to Iran for support).
And then there's this: 20% of international container shipping transits the Red Sea. Shut off that level of trade, and global recession looms. Global recession is a brake on US economic growth. And Iran is using the Houthis to do exactly that - attempt to shut down Red Sea trade routes. To the extent China is allied with Iran, Iranian support for Houthis is supportive of Chinese policy - to defend Chinese trade thru the Red Sea, or to afford Chinese ability to influence (facilitate or deny) the trade of others thru the Red Sea (Chinese soft power.....)
To the extent one thinks Iran is a problem, then one has an interest in what they are doing in the Red Sea.
Allowing the precedent to stand that a minor power can hold trade routes hostage would encourage other countries to consider such policies to strengthen their power.
(....just for starters....)
If supporting Iran ensures Armenia, the only remaining Christian country in the middle east, survives then let the houthis and Iran control the Red Sea.
I support the Armenians and all the rest of the scattered and beaten ME Christians.
A) Religious similarities matter.
B) Ethnic/linguistic similarities matter.
C) Ideological similarities matter.
D) But NOTHING matters more than geography.
E) And Armenia's geography FORCE it to look to Iran (and Russia) for assistance.
F) That, in turn, often puts Armenian interests at odds with Israel.
Your policy is, and there's no polite way to say it, childish, Idiotic, etc..... You are letting A drive everything, everywhere, no matter what the consequences.
Your policy misses basic facts, too. Armenia is not a Middle Eastern country. It is in the Caucasus, sandwiched in a shatterzone BETWEEN the middle east and Eurasia, as well as between three major powers - Turkey, Iran, Russia. If the Armenians were muslims, their lot would be quite a bit more simple. But they're not. They're Christians wedged in between a major power (Turkey) and a minor power (Azerbaijan), which have A & B in common, both relative to each other and to other greater powers. That forces the Armenians to look elsewhere for support, and there are two major options - Russia and Iran. Now I, too, am favorably inclined to support a Christian nations in the situation Armenia faces. See "A" above. But rather than let that one issue drive the entirety of US policy in the Europe and the Middle East (and surrounding seas & gulfs), I would lean on quiet diplomacy and (more importantly) on intelligence liaison to further US policy interests. I would give Armenia a little foreign aid (we can debate pros/cons on specifics), but I would spend a lot more time & effort recruiting Armenian intel officers who liaise with Russian & Iranian intel agencies (as a way of gaining intel on Russian & Iranian plans/policies/intentions in the region). In other words, I can't change A-D above, but I can exploit it to my advantage as best as possible.
That's how you do it. You have to accept the realities on the ground and use the forces of gravity (A-D) to push your interests as best as you can. Armenia will always, always, always be forced to attend to the foreign policy concerns of Russia and Iran, because Russia and Iran are the only ones who have any serious incentive to help them resist Turkey. And Turkey is OUR ally against Iran & Russia. So despite whatever concerns I might have about Turkish intentions in the region (which are not seamlessly allied with ours), I have to manage things well enough to keep them lined up on our side on the major issues (Russia, Iran). THAT'S how I help Armenia. If I do too much directly, I end up at odds with a long list of more useful relationships. So I use other options to keep Turkey in check....to make Turkey calculate that it's in their interest not to beat up on Armenia too much for fear of provoking us to more forcefully engage to resist their interests elsewhere.
how do we do that, some might ask? (not you...you've already stuck your head in the sand....) Simple. You make sure the King of Jordan takes your calls (because Jordan is in the Mesopotamian shatterzone between Iran, Turkey, Saudi, and Egypt). You make sure you are on very good terms with the Egyptians and Saudis (who are highly motivated to resist Turkish expansion). And......(here's the part where your start frothing at the mouth).....you maintain very good relations with Israel, a highly capable Western country facing the exact same kinds of pressures Armenia is facing (isolated among hostiles). Look at what Israel is doing in Syria (degrading Syrian regime military assets, moving into Druze areas to establish a protectorate, etc....) Rarely does one have a better ally than a country surrounded by hostiles.
If there's one thing Israel, Jordan, Saudi, and Egypt are completely of one mind about, it's to stop the expansion of Turkish (or Iranian) power. Our interests are in line with theirs. Our policy flows thusly. But who's going to do the grunt work on that? Israel. You can hate them all you want, but they are the single best foreign policy investment we've ever made.
The Saudis and Egyptians are willing to put aside their aversion to Israel in order to further larger interests. Why can't you do the same?
Because they are getting paid with a lot of my tax dollars to do so. If American Jews pooled their own money to bribe these nations I would have zero objections. But Israel has made an enemy of me by interfering in American elections and bankrupting my country. I grew up completely agnostic towards Israel and may have even leaned slightly in favor of them until I started discovering all the treacherous actions they have committed against us and the mendacious lies they propagandize the American public.
There is a major generational shift coming and most Americans under 40 do not support Israel.
My goodness. I don't think I've ever seen someone use so much energy to be so completely daft.
You Boomers can cope and seethe.. but the data is already out there. Young Americans do not support Israel.
But young people don't pay for cable or read newspapers. They get the news from independent journalists who are a lot more fact based than CNN, FOX, NBC, CBS, NYT, Washington Post etc who have handlers at the State Department who tell them what they can and can't report.
What is also true is that the strongest base of support for Israel are among religious conservatives, who believe God gave the land of Israel to the Jews. In that regard, Jewish support for Israel really correlates most strongly with political ideology (as it does in the larger population). The more liberal/atheistic one becomes, the more skeptical one tends to be of support for Israel; and the more conservative/religious one becomes, the more likely one is to have unqualified support for Israel. Jews just happen to be 2-1 liberals.
most opposition to Israel one sees on the right is almost exclusively among those angry at budget deficits and most specifically how foreign aid contributes to those deficits. Once we get our fiscal house in order, that dynamic will abate to insignificance. As we see on the Ukraine debates, critics of support for Ukraine are laser focused on the spend itself and are not prepared to entertain the proposition that there is ANY geopolitical justification for that support. They contort their whole worldview to justify the budget cut.
Why do you keep posting amuse junk?Assassin said:UKRAINE: Zelensky will not allow UN peacekeepers on the ground in Ukraine, insisting that NATO membership and NATO boots on the ground is the only way forward. pic.twitter.com/1VZ9kWPiSN
— @amuse (@amuse) March 23, 2025
Assassin said:11. Hungary prioritizes national interests over globalist policies.
— Culture Explorer (@CultureExploreX) March 21, 2025
All European Union nations but Hungary signed a joint statement on March 6th, 2025, backing Ukraine, the second time in a month that Budapest was the bloc’s sole member to decline to sign such a statement of… pic.twitter.com/3oEMwvcmyq
Assassin said:You are correct. Our younger generation has been brainwashed by the leftist mediaThe_barBEARian said:whiterock said:LOL. Nope. Rising generations will see what prior generations have seen and continue to support Israel = nothing furthers US policy in the region more than strong support for Israel.The_barBEARian said:whiterock said:LOL I wasn't advocating American support or opposition for Armenia. I was merely pointing out that you are completely blind to the realities of geopolitics.The_barBEARian said:whiterock said:because disruptions in trade to our trade partners have not inconsiderable ripple effects on us.The_barBEARian said:Redbrickbear said:ron.reagan said:
I see no benefit from bombing Yemen. It's like trying to dry up a river with a towel instead of fixing the dam. Most of the ignorant ****s there have such a **** life I can hardly blame them for just wanting to see the world burn
"If you kill enough of them, they stop fighting "- Curtis LeMay
They will in fact get tired of being bombed and have special forces raids kill lots of them and cost them money
And denying them a long term occupation also denies them easy American targets and internet propaganda videos when they blow up a unlucky army vehicle
Massie put out an interesting tweet that the United States isnt even in the top 5 countries who transport the most cargo through the Red Sea.
that is a true but misleading statistic. We are 2% of TOTAL global export shipments by sea (and a slightly larger share of global import shipments by sea).
The top transporter is China. So why are we spending billions of dollars to secure China's shipping lanes?
because maintaining/disrupting trade routes impact the security/stability position of entire regions (where we have interests).
because our navy uses the same trade routes Chinese cargo ships.
The Houthis are Shiites. They are a proxy of Iran, who seeks destabilize the Saudi Arabian peninsula, which:
-- Diminishes Saudi power
-- Shuts down Red Sea trade routes, which diminishes everyone who needs those trade routes
-- Strengthens Iranian soft power (if you defy Teheran, Teheran will deny you transit of the Red Sea)
-- Prevents Iran from being shut out of direct sea routes to the eastern Med (which allows them to pose flanking threats to a number of their geopolitical rivals - chiefly Turkey (with whom they have a land border) but also Israel and Egypt).
--Enables Iranian naval assets in the Med to counter Turkish support of Azerbaijan (who are fellow turks and also have a land border with Iran).
--Enables Iranian naval assets in the Med to have access to the Black Sea, to counter Turkey by supporting Armenia (who exists in constant tension with Turkey and Azerbaijan and typically looks to Iran for support).
And then there's this: 20% of international container shipping transits the Red Sea. Shut off that level of trade, and global recession looms. Global recession is a brake on US economic growth. And Iran is using the Houthis to do exactly that - attempt to shut down Red Sea trade routes. To the extent China is allied with Iran, Iranian support for Houthis is supportive of Chinese policy - to defend Chinese trade thru the Red Sea, or to afford Chinese ability to influence (facilitate or deny) the trade of others thru the Red Sea (Chinese soft power.....)
To the extent one thinks Iran is a problem, then one has an interest in what they are doing in the Red Sea.
Allowing the precedent to stand that a minor power can hold trade routes hostage would encourage other countries to consider such policies to strengthen their power.
(....just for starters....)
If supporting Iran ensures Armenia, the only remaining Christian country in the middle east, survives then let the houthis and Iran control the Red Sea.
I support the Armenians and all the rest of the scattered and beaten ME Christians.
A) Religious similarities matter.
B) Ethnic/linguistic similarities matter.
C) Ideological similarities matter.
D) But NOTHING matters more than geography.
E) And Armenia's geography FORCE it to look to Iran (and Russia) for assistance.
F) That, in turn, often puts Armenian interests at odds with Israel.
Your policy is, and there's no polite way to say it, childish, Idiotic, etc..... You are letting A drive everything, everywhere, no matter what the consequences.
Your policy misses basic facts, too. Armenia is not a Middle Eastern country. It is in the Caucasus, sandwiched in a shatterzone BETWEEN the middle east and Eurasia, as well as between three major powers - Turkey, Iran, Russia. If the Armenians were muslims, their lot would be quite a bit more simple. But they're not. They're Christians wedged in between a major power (Turkey) and a minor power (Azerbaijan), which have A & B in common, both relative to each other and to other greater powers. That forces the Armenians to look elsewhere for support, and there are two major options - Russia and Iran. Now I, too, am favorably inclined to support a Christian nations in the situation Armenia faces. See "A" above. But rather than let that one issue drive the entirety of US policy in the Europe and the Middle East (and surrounding seas & gulfs), I would lean on quiet diplomacy and (more importantly) on intelligence liaison to further US policy interests. I would give Armenia a little foreign aid (we can debate pros/cons on specifics), but I would spend a lot more time & effort recruiting Armenian intel officers who liaise with Russian & Iranian intel agencies (as a way of gaining intel on Russian & Iranian plans/policies/intentions in the region). In other words, I can't change A-D above, but I can exploit it to my advantage as best as possible.
That's how you do it. You have to accept the realities on the ground and use the forces of gravity (A-D) to push your interests as best as you can. Armenia will always, always, always be forced to attend to the foreign policy concerns of Russia and Iran, because Russia and Iran are the only ones who have any serious incentive to help them resist Turkey. And Turkey is OUR ally against Iran & Russia. So despite whatever concerns I might have about Turkish intentions in the region (which are not seamlessly allied with ours), I have to manage things well enough to keep them lined up on our side on the major issues (Russia, Iran). THAT'S how I help Armenia. If I do too much directly, I end up at odds with a long list of more useful relationships. So I use other options to keep Turkey in check....to make Turkey calculate that it's in their interest not to beat up on Armenia too much for fear of provoking us to more forcefully engage to resist their interests elsewhere.
how do we do that, some might ask? (not you...you've already stuck your head in the sand....) Simple. You make sure the King of Jordan takes your calls (because Jordan is in the Mesopotamian shatterzone between Iran, Turkey, Saudi, and Egypt). You make sure you are on very good terms with the Egyptians and Saudis (who are highly motivated to resist Turkish expansion). And......(here's the part where your start frothing at the mouth).....you maintain very good relations with Israel, a highly capable Western country facing the exact same kinds of pressures Armenia is facing (isolated among hostiles). Look at what Israel is doing in Syria (degrading Syrian regime military assets, moving into Druze areas to establish a protectorate, etc....) Rarely does one have a better ally than a country surrounded by hostiles.
If there's one thing Israel, Jordan, Saudi, and Egypt are completely of one mind about, it's to stop the expansion of Turkish (or Iranian) power. Our interests are in line with theirs. Our policy flows thusly. But who's going to do the grunt work on that? Israel. You can hate them all you want, but they are the single best foreign policy investment we've ever made.
The Saudis and Egyptians are willing to put aside their aversion to Israel in order to further larger interests. Why can't you do the same?
Because they are getting paid with a lot of my tax dollars to do so. If American Jews pooled their own money to bribe these nations I would have zero objections. But Israel has made an enemy of me by interfering in American elections and bankrupting my country. I grew up completely agnostic towards Israel and may have even leaned slightly in favor of them until I started discovering all the treacherous actions they have committed against us and the mendacious lies they propagandize the American public.
There is a major generational shift coming and most Americans under 40 do not support Israel.
My goodness. I don't think I've ever seen someone use so much energy to be so completely daft.
You Boomers can cope and seethe.. but the data is already out there. Young Americans do not support Israel.
https://www.axios.com/2024/09/28/gen-z-men-conservative-pollhistorian said:Assassin said:You are correct. Our younger generation has been brainwashed by the leftist mediaThe_barBEARian said:whiterock said:LOL. Nope. Rising generations will see what prior generations have seen and continue to support Israel = nothing furthers US policy in the region more than strong support for Israel.The_barBEARian said:whiterock said:LOL I wasn't advocating American support or opposition for Armenia. I was merely pointing out that you are completely blind to the realities of geopolitics.The_barBEARian said:whiterock said:because disruptions in trade to our trade partners have not inconsiderable ripple effects on us.The_barBEARian said:Redbrickbear said:ron.reagan said:
I see no benefit from bombing Yemen. It's like trying to dry up a river with a towel instead of fixing the dam. Most of the ignorant ****s there have such a **** life I can hardly blame them for just wanting to see the world burn
"If you kill enough of them, they stop fighting "- Curtis LeMay
They will in fact get tired of being bombed and have special forces raids kill lots of them and cost them money
And denying them a long term occupation also denies them easy American targets and internet propaganda videos when they blow up a unlucky army vehicle
Massie put out an interesting tweet that the United States isnt even in the top 5 countries who transport the most cargo through the Red Sea.
that is a true but misleading statistic. We are 2% of TOTAL global export shipments by sea (and a slightly larger share of global import shipments by sea).
The top transporter is China. So why are we spending billions of dollars to secure China's shipping lanes?
because maintaining/disrupting trade routes impact the security/stability position of entire regions (where we have interests).
because our navy uses the same trade routes Chinese cargo ships.
The Houthis are Shiites. They are a proxy of Iran, who seeks destabilize the Saudi Arabian peninsula, which:
-- Diminishes Saudi power
-- Shuts down Red Sea trade routes, which diminishes everyone who needs those trade routes
-- Strengthens Iranian soft power (if you defy Teheran, Teheran will deny you transit of the Red Sea)
-- Prevents Iran from being shut out of direct sea routes to the eastern Med (which allows them to pose flanking threats to a number of their geopolitical rivals - chiefly Turkey (with whom they have a land border) but also Israel and Egypt).
--Enables Iranian naval assets in the Med to counter Turkish support of Azerbaijan (who are fellow turks and also have a land border with Iran).
--Enables Iranian naval assets in the Med to have access to the Black Sea, to counter Turkey by supporting Armenia (who exists in constant tension with Turkey and Azerbaijan and typically looks to Iran for support).
And then there's this: 20% of international container shipping transits the Red Sea. Shut off that level of trade, and global recession looms. Global recession is a brake on US economic growth. And Iran is using the Houthis to do exactly that - attempt to shut down Red Sea trade routes. To the extent China is allied with Iran, Iranian support for Houthis is supportive of Chinese policy - to defend Chinese trade thru the Red Sea, or to afford Chinese ability to influence (facilitate or deny) the trade of others thru the Red Sea (Chinese soft power.....)
To the extent one thinks Iran is a problem, then one has an interest in what they are doing in the Red Sea.
Allowing the precedent to stand that a minor power can hold trade routes hostage would encourage other countries to consider such policies to strengthen their power.
(....just for starters....)
If supporting Iran ensures Armenia, the only remaining Christian country in the middle east, survives then let the houthis and Iran control the Red Sea.
I support the Armenians and all the rest of the scattered and beaten ME Christians.
A) Religious similarities matter.
B) Ethnic/linguistic similarities matter.
C) Ideological similarities matter.
D) But NOTHING matters more than geography.
E) And Armenia's geography FORCE it to look to Iran (and Russia) for assistance.
F) That, in turn, often puts Armenian interests at odds with Israel.
Your policy is, and there's no polite way to say it, childish, Idiotic, etc..... You are letting A drive everything, everywhere, no matter what the consequences.
Your policy misses basic facts, too. Armenia is not a Middle Eastern country. It is in the Caucasus, sandwiched in a shatterzone BETWEEN the middle east and Eurasia, as well as between three major powers - Turkey, Iran, Russia. If the Armenians were muslims, their lot would be quite a bit more simple. But they're not. They're Christians wedged in between a major power (Turkey) and a minor power (Azerbaijan), which have A & B in common, both relative to each other and to other greater powers. That forces the Armenians to look elsewhere for support, and there are two major options - Russia and Iran. Now I, too, am favorably inclined to support a Christian nations in the situation Armenia faces. See "A" above. But rather than let that one issue drive the entirety of US policy in the Europe and the Middle East (and surrounding seas & gulfs), I would lean on quiet diplomacy and (more importantly) on intelligence liaison to further US policy interests. I would give Armenia a little foreign aid (we can debate pros/cons on specifics), but I would spend a lot more time & effort recruiting Armenian intel officers who liaise with Russian & Iranian intel agencies (as a way of gaining intel on Russian & Iranian plans/policies/intentions in the region). In other words, I can't change A-D above, but I can exploit it to my advantage as best as possible.
That's how you do it. You have to accept the realities on the ground and use the forces of gravity (A-D) to push your interests as best as you can. Armenia will always, always, always be forced to attend to the foreign policy concerns of Russia and Iran, because Russia and Iran are the only ones who have any serious incentive to help them resist Turkey. And Turkey is OUR ally against Iran & Russia. So despite whatever concerns I might have about Turkish intentions in the region (which are not seamlessly allied with ours), I have to manage things well enough to keep them lined up on our side on the major issues (Russia, Iran). THAT'S how I help Armenia. If I do too much directly, I end up at odds with a long list of more useful relationships. So I use other options to keep Turkey in check....to make Turkey calculate that it's in their interest not to beat up on Armenia too much for fear of provoking us to more forcefully engage to resist their interests elsewhere.
how do we do that, some might ask? (not you...you've already stuck your head in the sand....) Simple. You make sure the King of Jordan takes your calls (because Jordan is in the Mesopotamian shatterzone between Iran, Turkey, Saudi, and Egypt). You make sure you are on very good terms with the Egyptians and Saudis (who are highly motivated to resist Turkish expansion). And......(here's the part where your start frothing at the mouth).....you maintain very good relations with Israel, a highly capable Western country facing the exact same kinds of pressures Armenia is facing (isolated among hostiles). Look at what Israel is doing in Syria (degrading Syrian regime military assets, moving into Druze areas to establish a protectorate, etc....) Rarely does one have a better ally than a country surrounded by hostiles.
If there's one thing Israel, Jordan, Saudi, and Egypt are completely of one mind about, it's to stop the expansion of Turkish (or Iranian) power. Our interests are in line with theirs. Our policy flows thusly. But who's going to do the grunt work on that? Israel. You can hate them all you want, but they are the single best foreign policy investment we've ever made.
The Saudis and Egyptians are willing to put aside their aversion to Israel in order to further larger interests. Why can't you do the same?
Because they are getting paid with a lot of my tax dollars to do so. If American Jews pooled their own money to bribe these nations I would have zero objections. But Israel has made an enemy of me by interfering in American elections and bankrupting my country. I grew up completely agnostic towards Israel and may have even leaned slightly in favor of them until I started discovering all the treacherous actions they have committed against us and the mendacious lies they propagandize the American public.
There is a major generational shift coming and most Americans under 40 do not support Israel.
My goodness. I don't think I've ever seen someone use so much energy to be so completely daft.
You Boomers can cope and seethe.. but the data is already out there. Young Americans do not support Israel.
And yet many of them are smart enough to see through the lies. I recently read an article reporting that the younger generation (20s) ard more right leaning than seniors. That might not translate into broad support for Israel but some will, especially many Christians who recognize that Israel is important to God.
whiterock said:I wouldn't go quite that far, but his influence on the media is profound. However, it's even greater with NGOS and elected officials. Where you are absolutely correct is that the Jews most hostile to Israel are on the left.Assassin said:The media is controlled by a single Jew, George Soros. He who worked for the Nazi's in WWII per his own words on 60 minutes. He has paid off the unions were the editors, pressmen and so forth work. He owns them along with several hundred radio and TV stations. And he is not pro-IsraelThe_barBEARian said:The media is controlled by Jews who support Israel.Assassin said:You are correct. Our younger generation has been brainwashed by the leftist mediaThe_barBEARian said:whiterock said:LOL. Nope. Rising generations will see what prior generations have seen and continue to support Israel = nothing furthers US policy in the region more than strong support for Israel.The_barBEARian said:whiterock said:LOL I wasn't advocating American support or opposition for Armenia. I was merely pointing out that you are completely blind to the realities of geopolitics.The_barBEARian said:whiterock said:because disruptions in trade to our trade partners have not inconsiderable ripple effects on us.The_barBEARian said:Redbrickbear said:ron.reagan said:
I see no benefit from bombing Yemen. It's like trying to dry up a river with a towel instead of fixing the dam. Most of the ignorant ****s there have such a **** life I can hardly blame them for just wanting to see the world burn
"If you kill enough of them, they stop fighting "- Curtis LeMay
They will in fact get tired of being bombed and have special forces raids kill lots of them and cost them money
And denying them a long term occupation also denies them easy American targets and internet propaganda videos when they blow up a unlucky army vehicle
Massie put out an interesting tweet that the United States isnt even in the top 5 countries who transport the most cargo through the Red Sea.
that is a true but misleading statistic. We are 2% of TOTAL global export shipments by sea (and a slightly larger share of global import shipments by sea).
The top transporter is China. So why are we spending billions of dollars to secure China's shipping lanes?
because maintaining/disrupting trade routes impact the security/stability position of entire regions (where we have interests).
because our navy uses the same trade routes Chinese cargo ships.
The Houthis are Shiites. They are a proxy of Iran, who seeks destabilize the Saudi Arabian peninsula, which:
-- Diminishes Saudi power
-- Shuts down Red Sea trade routes, which diminishes everyone who needs those trade routes
-- Strengthens Iranian soft power (if you defy Teheran, Teheran will deny you transit of the Red Sea)
-- Prevents Iran from being shut out of direct sea routes to the eastern Med (which allows them to pose flanking threats to a number of their geopolitical rivals - chiefly Turkey (with whom they have a land border) but also Israel and Egypt).
--Enables Iranian naval assets in the Med to counter Turkish support of Azerbaijan (who are fellow turks and also have a land border with Iran).
--Enables Iranian naval assets in the Med to have access to the Black Sea, to counter Turkey by supporting Armenia (who exists in constant tension with Turkey and Azerbaijan and typically looks to Iran for support).
And then there's this: 20% of international container shipping transits the Red Sea. Shut off that level of trade, and global recession looms. Global recession is a brake on US economic growth. And Iran is using the Houthis to do exactly that - attempt to shut down Red Sea trade routes. To the extent China is allied with Iran, Iranian support for Houthis is supportive of Chinese policy - to defend Chinese trade thru the Red Sea, or to afford Chinese ability to influence (facilitate or deny) the trade of others thru the Red Sea (Chinese soft power.....)
To the extent one thinks Iran is a problem, then one has an interest in what they are doing in the Red Sea.
Allowing the precedent to stand that a minor power can hold trade routes hostage would encourage other countries to consider such policies to strengthen their power.
(....just for starters....)
If supporting Iran ensures Armenia, the only remaining Christian country in the middle east, survives then let the houthis and Iran control the Red Sea.
I support the Armenians and all the rest of the scattered and beaten ME Christians.
A) Religious similarities matter.
B) Ethnic/linguistic similarities matter.
C) Ideological similarities matter.
D) But NOTHING matters more than geography.
E) And Armenia's geography FORCE it to look to Iran (and Russia) for assistance.
F) That, in turn, often puts Armenian interests at odds with Israel.
Your policy is, and there's no polite way to say it, childish, Idiotic, etc..... You are letting A drive everything, everywhere, no matter what the consequences.
Your policy misses basic facts, too. Armenia is not a Middle Eastern country. It is in the Caucasus, sandwiched in a shatterzone BETWEEN the middle east and Eurasia, as well as between three major powers - Turkey, Iran, Russia. If the Armenians were muslims, their lot would be quite a bit more simple. But they're not. They're Christians wedged in between a major power (Turkey) and a minor power (Azerbaijan), which have A & B in common, both relative to each other and to other greater powers. That forces the Armenians to look elsewhere for support, and there are two major options - Russia and Iran. Now I, too, am favorably inclined to support a Christian nations in the situation Armenia faces. See "A" above. But rather than let that one issue drive the entirety of US policy in the Europe and the Middle East (and surrounding seas & gulfs), I would lean on quiet diplomacy and (more importantly) on intelligence liaison to further US policy interests. I would give Armenia a little foreign aid (we can debate pros/cons on specifics), but I would spend a lot more time & effort recruiting Armenian intel officers who liaise with Russian & Iranian intel agencies (as a way of gaining intel on Russian & Iranian plans/policies/intentions in the region). In other words, I can't change A-D above, but I can exploit it to my advantage as best as possible.
That's how you do it. You have to accept the realities on the ground and use the forces of gravity (A-D) to push your interests as best as you can. Armenia will always, always, always be forced to attend to the foreign policy concerns of Russia and Iran, because Russia and Iran are the only ones who have any serious incentive to help them resist Turkey. And Turkey is OUR ally against Iran & Russia. So despite whatever concerns I might have about Turkish intentions in the region (which are not seamlessly allied with ours), I have to manage things well enough to keep them lined up on our side on the major issues (Russia, Iran). THAT'S how I help Armenia. If I do too much directly, I end up at odds with a long list of more useful relationships. So I use other options to keep Turkey in check....to make Turkey calculate that it's in their interest not to beat up on Armenia too much for fear of provoking us to more forcefully engage to resist their interests elsewhere.
how do we do that, some might ask? (not you...you've already stuck your head in the sand....) Simple. You make sure the King of Jordan takes your calls (because Jordan is in the Mesopotamian shatterzone between Iran, Turkey, Saudi, and Egypt). You make sure you are on very good terms with the Egyptians and Saudis (who are highly motivated to resist Turkish expansion). And......(here's the part where your start frothing at the mouth).....you maintain very good relations with Israel, a highly capable Western country facing the exact same kinds of pressures Armenia is facing (isolated among hostiles). Look at what Israel is doing in Syria (degrading Syrian regime military assets, moving into Druze areas to establish a protectorate, etc....) Rarely does one have a better ally than a country surrounded by hostiles.
If there's one thing Israel, Jordan, Saudi, and Egypt are completely of one mind about, it's to stop the expansion of Turkish (or Iranian) power. Our interests are in line with theirs. Our policy flows thusly. But who's going to do the grunt work on that? Israel. You can hate them all you want, but they are the single best foreign policy investment we've ever made.
The Saudis and Egyptians are willing to put aside their aversion to Israel in order to further larger interests. Why can't you do the same?
Because they are getting paid with a lot of my tax dollars to do so. If American Jews pooled their own money to bribe these nations I would have zero objections. But Israel has made an enemy of me by interfering in American elections and bankrupting my country. I grew up completely agnostic towards Israel and may have even leaned slightly in favor of them until I started discovering all the treacherous actions they have committed against us and the mendacious lies they propagandize the American public.
There is a major generational shift coming and most Americans under 40 do not support Israel.
My goodness. I don't think I've ever seen someone use so much energy to be so completely daft.
You Boomers can cope and seethe.. but the data is already out there. Young Americans do not support Israel.
But young people don't pay for cable or read newspapers. They get the news from independent journalists who are a lot more fact based than CNN, FOX, NBC, CBS, NYT, Washington Post etc who have handlers at the State Department who tell them what they can and can't report.
What is also true is that the strongest base of support for Israel are among religious conservatives, who believe God gave the land of Israel to the Jews. In that regard, Jewish support for Israel really correlates most strongly with political ideology (as it does in the larger population). The more liberal/atheistic one becomes, the more skeptical one tends to be of support for Israel; and the more conservative/religious one becomes, the more likely one is to have unqualified support for Israel. Jews just happen to be 2-1 liberals.
most opposition to Israel one sees on the right is almost exclusively among those angry at budget deficits and most specifically how foreign aid contributes to those deficits. Once we get our fiscal house in order, that dynamic will abate to insignificance. As we see on the Ukraine debates, critics of support for Ukraine are laser focused on the spend itself and are not prepared to entertain the proposition that there is ANY geopolitical justification for that support. They contort their whole worldview to justify the budget cut.
whiterock said:Doc Holliday said:Eh that's not really the issue.whiterock said:LOL. Nope. Rising generations will see what prior generations have seen and continue to support Israel = nothing furthers US policy in the region more than strong support for Israel.The_barBEARian said:whiterock said:LOL I wasn't advocating American support or opposition for Armenia. I was merely pointing out that you are completely blind to the realities of geopolitics.The_barBEARian said:whiterock said:because disruptions in trade to our trade partners have not inconsiderable ripple effects on us.The_barBEARian said:Redbrickbear said:ron.reagan said:
I see no benefit from bombing Yemen. It's like trying to dry up a river with a towel instead of fixing the dam. Most of the ignorant ****s there have such a **** life I can hardly blame them for just wanting to see the world burn
"If you kill enough of them, they stop fighting "- Curtis LeMay
They will in fact get tired of being bombed and have special forces raids kill lots of them and cost them money
And denying them a long term occupation also denies them easy American targets and internet propaganda videos when they blow up a unlucky army vehicle
Massie put out an interesting tweet that the United States isnt even in the top 5 countries who transport the most cargo through the Red Sea.
that is a true but misleading statistic. We are 2% of TOTAL global export shipments by sea (and a slightly larger share of global import shipments by sea).
The top transporter is China. So why are we spending billions of dollars to secure China's shipping lanes?
because maintaining/disrupting trade routes impact the security/stability position of entire regions (where we have interests).
because our navy uses the same trade routes Chinese cargo ships.
The Houthis are Shiites. They are a proxy of Iran, who seeks destabilize the Saudi Arabian peninsula, which:
-- Diminishes Saudi power
-- Shuts down Red Sea trade routes, which diminishes everyone who needs those trade routes
-- Strengthens Iranian soft power (if you defy Teheran, Teheran will deny you transit of the Red Sea)
-- Prevents Iran from being shut out of direct sea routes to the eastern Med (which allows them to pose flanking threats to a number of their geopolitical rivals - chiefly Turkey (with whom they have a land border) but also Israel and Egypt).
--Enables Iranian naval assets in the Med to counter Turkish support of Azerbaijan (who are fellow turks and also have a land border with Iran).
--Enables Iranian naval assets in the Med to have access to the Black Sea, to counter Turkey by supporting Armenia (who exists in constant tension with Turkey and Azerbaijan and typically looks to Iran for support).
And then there's this: 20% of international container shipping transits the Red Sea. Shut off that level of trade, and global recession looms. Global recession is a brake on US economic growth. And Iran is using the Houthis to do exactly that - attempt to shut down Red Sea trade routes. To the extent China is allied with Iran, Iranian support for Houthis is supportive of Chinese policy - to defend Chinese trade thru the Red Sea, or to afford Chinese ability to influence (facilitate or deny) the trade of others thru the Red Sea (Chinese soft power.....)
To the extent one thinks Iran is a problem, then one has an interest in what they are doing in the Red Sea.
Allowing the precedent to stand that a minor power can hold trade routes hostage would encourage other countries to consider such policies to strengthen their power.
(....just for starters....)
If supporting Iran ensures Armenia, the only remaining Christian country in the middle east, survives then let the houthis and Iran control the Red Sea.
I support the Armenians and all the rest of the scattered and beaten ME Christians.
A) Religious similarities matter.
B) Ethnic/linguistic similarities matter.
C) Ideological similarities matter.
D) But NOTHING matters more than geography.
E) And Armenia's geography FORCE it to look to Iran (and Russia) for assistance.
F) That, in turn, often puts Armenian interests at odds with Israel.
Your policy is, and there's no polite way to say it, childish, Idiotic, etc..... You are letting A drive everything, everywhere, no matter what the consequences.
Your policy misses basic facts, too. Armenia is not a Middle Eastern country. It is in the Caucasus, sandwiched in a shatterzone BETWEEN the middle east and Eurasia, as well as between three major powers - Turkey, Iran, Russia. If the Armenians were muslims, their lot would be quite a bit more simple. But they're not. They're Christians wedged in between a major power (Turkey) and a minor power (Azerbaijan), which have A & B in common, both relative to each other and to other greater powers. That forces the Armenians to look elsewhere for support, and there are two major options - Russia and Iran. Now I, too, am favorably inclined to support a Christian nations in the situation Armenia faces. See "A" above. But rather than let that one issue drive the entirety of US policy in the Europe and the Middle East (and surrounding seas & gulfs), I would lean on quiet diplomacy and (more importantly) on intelligence liaison to further US policy interests. I would give Armenia a little foreign aid (we can debate pros/cons on specifics), but I would spend a lot more time & effort recruiting Armenian intel officers who liaise with Russian & Iranian intel agencies (as a way of gaining intel on Russian & Iranian plans/policies/intentions in the region). In other words, I can't change A-D above, but I can exploit it to my advantage as best as possible.
That's how you do it. You have to accept the realities on the ground and use the forces of gravity (A-D) to push your interests as best as you can. Armenia will always, always, always be forced to attend to the foreign policy concerns of Russia and Iran, because Russia and Iran are the only ones who have any serious incentive to help them resist Turkey. And Turkey is OUR ally against Iran & Russia. So despite whatever concerns I might have about Turkish intentions in the region (which are not seamlessly allied with ours), I have to manage things well enough to keep them lined up on our side on the major issues (Russia, Iran). THAT'S how I help Armenia. If I do too much directly, I end up at odds with a long list of more useful relationships. So I use other options to keep Turkey in check....to make Turkey calculate that it's in their interest not to beat up on Armenia too much for fear of provoking us to more forcefully engage to resist their interests elsewhere.
how do we do that, some might ask? (not you...you've already stuck your head in the sand....) Simple. You make sure the King of Jordan takes your calls (because Jordan is in the Mesopotamian shatterzone between Iran, Turkey, Saudi, and Egypt). You make sure you are on very good terms with the Egyptians and Saudis (who are highly motivated to resist Turkish expansion). And......(here's the part where your start frothing at the mouth).....you maintain very good relations with Israel, a highly capable Western country facing the exact same kinds of pressures Armenia is facing (isolated among hostiles). Look at what Israel is doing in Syria (degrading Syrian regime military assets, moving into Druze areas to establish a protectorate, etc....) Rarely does one have a better ally than a country surrounded by hostiles.
If there's one thing Israel, Jordan, Saudi, and Egypt are completely of one mind about, it's to stop the expansion of Turkish (or Iranian) power. Our interests are in line with theirs. Our policy flows thusly. But who's going to do the grunt work on that? Israel. You can hate them all you want, but they are the single best foreign policy investment we've ever made.
The Saudis and Egyptians are willing to put aside their aversion to Israel in order to further larger interests. Why can't you do the same?
Because they are getting paid with a lot of my tax dollars to do so. If American Jews pooled their own money to bribe these nations I would have zero objections. But Israel has made an enemy of me by interfering in American elections and bankrupting my country. I grew up completely agnostic towards Israel and may have even leaned slightly in favor of them until I started discovering all the treacherous actions they have committed against us and the mendacious lies they propagandize the American public.
There is a major generational shift coming and most Americans under 40 do not support Israel.
My goodness. I don't think I've ever seen someone use so much energy to be so completely daft.
People believe Israel and Jews are the ones pushing the globalist agenda, LGBT, woke, political grifting and controls our government.
there's a fine line between anecdotal observation and antisemitism. There are also quite a few Jews working against the globalist agenda, the alphabet nonsense, wokeness, and all the political corruption. Many of them very prominent. Trump got the biggest share of the Jewish vote for Republicans since 1988.
Zero chance we cut off aid to Israel in the lifetime of anyone here. It would significantly harm our interests far beyond the Levant.
There's a lot of antisemitism right now. While Jews are absolutely behind the new world order, Christians need to understand what's really going on.whiterock said:Doc Holliday said:Eh that's not really the issue.whiterock said:LOL. Nope. Rising generations will see what prior generations have seen and continue to support Israel = nothing furthers US policy in the region more than strong support for Israel.The_barBEARian said:whiterock said:LOL I wasn't advocating American support or opposition for Armenia. I was merely pointing out that you are completely blind to the realities of geopolitics.The_barBEARian said:whiterock said:because disruptions in trade to our trade partners have not inconsiderable ripple effects on us.The_barBEARian said:Redbrickbear said:ron.reagan said:
I see no benefit from bombing Yemen. It's like trying to dry up a river with a towel instead of fixing the dam. Most of the ignorant ****s there have such a **** life I can hardly blame them for just wanting to see the world burn
"If you kill enough of them, they stop fighting "- Curtis LeMay
They will in fact get tired of being bombed and have special forces raids kill lots of them and cost them money
And denying them a long term occupation also denies them easy American targets and internet propaganda videos when they blow up a unlucky army vehicle
Massie put out an interesting tweet that the United States isnt even in the top 5 countries who transport the most cargo through the Red Sea.
that is a true but misleading statistic. We are 2% of TOTAL global export shipments by sea (and a slightly larger share of global import shipments by sea).
The top transporter is China. So why are we spending billions of dollars to secure China's shipping lanes?
because maintaining/disrupting trade routes impact the security/stability position of entire regions (where we have interests).
because our navy uses the same trade routes Chinese cargo ships.
The Houthis are Shiites. They are a proxy of Iran, who seeks destabilize the Saudi Arabian peninsula, which:
-- Diminishes Saudi power
-- Shuts down Red Sea trade routes, which diminishes everyone who needs those trade routes
-- Strengthens Iranian soft power (if you defy Teheran, Teheran will deny you transit of the Red Sea)
-- Prevents Iran from being shut out of direct sea routes to the eastern Med (which allows them to pose flanking threats to a number of their geopolitical rivals - chiefly Turkey (with whom they have a land border) but also Israel and Egypt).
--Enables Iranian naval assets in the Med to counter Turkish support of Azerbaijan (who are fellow turks and also have a land border with Iran).
--Enables Iranian naval assets in the Med to have access to the Black Sea, to counter Turkey by supporting Armenia (who exists in constant tension with Turkey and Azerbaijan and typically looks to Iran for support).
And then there's this: 20% of international container shipping transits the Red Sea. Shut off that level of trade, and global recession looms. Global recession is a brake on US economic growth. And Iran is using the Houthis to do exactly that - attempt to shut down Red Sea trade routes. To the extent China is allied with Iran, Iranian support for Houthis is supportive of Chinese policy - to defend Chinese trade thru the Red Sea, or to afford Chinese ability to influence (facilitate or deny) the trade of others thru the Red Sea (Chinese soft power.....)
To the extent one thinks Iran is a problem, then one has an interest in what they are doing in the Red Sea.
Allowing the precedent to stand that a minor power can hold trade routes hostage would encourage other countries to consider such policies to strengthen their power.
(....just for starters....)
If supporting Iran ensures Armenia, the only remaining Christian country in the middle east, survives then let the houthis and Iran control the Red Sea.
I support the Armenians and all the rest of the scattered and beaten ME Christians.
A) Religious similarities matter.
B) Ethnic/linguistic similarities matter.
C) Ideological similarities matter.
D) But NOTHING matters more than geography.
E) And Armenia's geography FORCE it to look to Iran (and Russia) for assistance.
F) That, in turn, often puts Armenian interests at odds with Israel.
Your policy is, and there's no polite way to say it, childish, Idiotic, etc..... You are letting A drive everything, everywhere, no matter what the consequences.
Your policy misses basic facts, too. Armenia is not a Middle Eastern country. It is in the Caucasus, sandwiched in a shatterzone BETWEEN the middle east and Eurasia, as well as between three major powers - Turkey, Iran, Russia. If the Armenians were muslims, their lot would be quite a bit more simple. But they're not. They're Christians wedged in between a major power (Turkey) and a minor power (Azerbaijan), which have A & B in common, both relative to each other and to other greater powers. That forces the Armenians to look elsewhere for support, and there are two major options - Russia and Iran. Now I, too, am favorably inclined to support a Christian nations in the situation Armenia faces. See "A" above. But rather than let that one issue drive the entirety of US policy in the Europe and the Middle East (and surrounding seas & gulfs), I would lean on quiet diplomacy and (more importantly) on intelligence liaison to further US policy interests. I would give Armenia a little foreign aid (we can debate pros/cons on specifics), but I would spend a lot more time & effort recruiting Armenian intel officers who liaise with Russian & Iranian intel agencies (as a way of gaining intel on Russian & Iranian plans/policies/intentions in the region). In other words, I can't change A-D above, but I can exploit it to my advantage as best as possible.
That's how you do it. You have to accept the realities on the ground and use the forces of gravity (A-D) to push your interests as best as you can. Armenia will always, always, always be forced to attend to the foreign policy concerns of Russia and Iran, because Russia and Iran are the only ones who have any serious incentive to help them resist Turkey. And Turkey is OUR ally against Iran & Russia. So despite whatever concerns I might have about Turkish intentions in the region (which are not seamlessly allied with ours), I have to manage things well enough to keep them lined up on our side on the major issues (Russia, Iran). THAT'S how I help Armenia. If I do too much directly, I end up at odds with a long list of more useful relationships. So I use other options to keep Turkey in check....to make Turkey calculate that it's in their interest not to beat up on Armenia too much for fear of provoking us to more forcefully engage to resist their interests elsewhere.
how do we do that, some might ask? (not you...you've already stuck your head in the sand....) Simple. You make sure the King of Jordan takes your calls (because Jordan is in the Mesopotamian shatterzone between Iran, Turkey, Saudi, and Egypt). You make sure you are on very good terms with the Egyptians and Saudis (who are highly motivated to resist Turkish expansion). And......(here's the part where your start frothing at the mouth).....you maintain very good relations with Israel, a highly capable Western country facing the exact same kinds of pressures Armenia is facing (isolated among hostiles). Look at what Israel is doing in Syria (degrading Syrian regime military assets, moving into Druze areas to establish a protectorate, etc....) Rarely does one have a better ally than a country surrounded by hostiles.
If there's one thing Israel, Jordan, Saudi, and Egypt are completely of one mind about, it's to stop the expansion of Turkish (or Iranian) power. Our interests are in line with theirs. Our policy flows thusly. But who's going to do the grunt work on that? Israel. You can hate them all you want, but they are the single best foreign policy investment we've ever made.
The Saudis and Egyptians are willing to put aside their aversion to Israel in order to further larger interests. Why can't you do the same?
Because they are getting paid with a lot of my tax dollars to do so. If American Jews pooled their own money to bribe these nations I would have zero objections. But Israel has made an enemy of me by interfering in American elections and bankrupting my country. I grew up completely agnostic towards Israel and may have even leaned slightly in favor of them until I started discovering all the treacherous actions they have committed against us and the mendacious lies they propagandize the American public.
There is a major generational shift coming and most Americans under 40 do not support Israel.
My goodness. I don't think I've ever seen someone use so much energy to be so completely daft.
People believe Israel and Jews are the ones pushing the globalist agenda, LGBT, woke, political grifting and controls our government.
there's a fine line between anecdotal observation and antisemitism. There are also quite a few Jews working against the globalist agenda, the alphabet nonsense, wokeness, and all the political corruption. Many of them very prominent. Trump got the biggest share of the Jewish vote for Republicans since 1988.
Zero chance we cut off aid to Israel in the lifetime of anyone here. It would significantly harm our interests far beyond the Levant.
^ an adult typed thathistorian said:
For several months now, I have been studying Revelation with BSF. It's quite fascinating & illuminating. So many recent events seem to reflect on the prophecies in John's visions. However, they are subject to a variety of interpretations and we really don't know what all of it means.
The really scary part is that when that comes, there will be many people who will watch those events unfold, even participating in them. But they won't see what should be obvious, prophecy being fulfilled, because their hearts are hardened (& doubtless, much pride). The sad result is they will refuse to repent and turn away from their sins. Instead, they will take the mark of the Beast and spend eternity in hell.
^ a child typed that responseron.reagan said:^ an adult typed thathistorian said:
For several months now, I have been studying Revelation with BSF. It's quite fascinating & illuminating. So many recent events seem to reflect on the prophecies in John's visions. However, they are subject to a variety of interpretations and we really don't know what all of it means.
The really scary part is that when that comes, there will be many people who will watch those events unfold, even participating in them. But they won't see what should be obvious, prophecy being fulfilled, because their hearts are hardened (& doubtless, much pride). The sad result is they will refuse to repent and turn away from their sins. Instead, they will take the mark of the Beast and spend eternity in hell.
