Oldbear83 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Aliceinbubbleland said:

---

Are you saying you'd support Trump over Pence?

---

Trump, for all his flaws, basically did a good job when he was in the Oval Office.

---

I have always maintained Trump is far superior to whomever the Dems throw out. But let's not pretend Trump's presidency wasn't a VERY mixed bag, especially his last two years in office. There was some good. Some bad. And some REALLY bad.

He spent like a drunken sailor, failed miserably on his border wall, and his COVID policy and vaccine rollout? Oy vey.

---

You might want to go back and check what he actually did. Spending starts with Congress, for example, and the 'last two years' the Democrats controlled Congress and used every tool available to harass him .

I don't like his style of argument sometimes, and yes he made mistakes (but fewer than either Bush and let's not even pretend his mistakes add up to any of the damage done by Clinton or Obama), and yes I don't want him to be the GOP nominee.

But trashing Trump's foreign policy, his trade negotiations, or his common sense attitude in rolling back Obama's policies, that goes after things we should be supporting and should be protecting against the Left.

God help us if we get Jeb Bush or Marco Rubio or someone like Mitch McConnell to lead our nation.

---

His trade deals have failed miserably. The only things substantive he did was roll back some Obama era regulations and nominate judges he was TOLD to nominate by the Federalist Society and Heritage Foundation.

You bought his self promo as reality. It was anything but.

RMF5630 said:

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4th and Inches said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Aliceinbubbleland said:

---

Are you saying you'd support Trump over Pence?

---

Trump, for all his flaws, basically did a good job when he was in the Oval Office.

---

I have always maintained Trump is far superior to whomever the Dems throw out. But let's not pretend Trump's presidency wasn't a VERY mixed bag, especially his last two years in office. There was some good. Some bad. And some REALLY bad.

He spent like a drunken sailor, failed miserably on his border wall, and his COVID policy and vaccine rollout? Oy vey.

---

You might want to go back and check what he actually did. Spending starts with Congress, for example, and the 'last two years' the Democrats controlled Congress and used every tool available to harass him .

I don't like his style of argument sometimes, and yes he made mistakes (but fewer than either Bush and let's not even pretend his mistakes add up to any of the damage done by Clinton or Obama), and yes I don't want him to be the GOP nominee.

But trashing Trump's foreign policy, his trade negotiations, or his common sense attitude in rolling back Obama's policies, that goes after things we should be supporting and should be protecting against the Left.

God help us if we get Jeb Bush or Marco Rubio or someone like Mitch McConnell to lead our nation.

---

I don't disagree with you about his foreign policy, his trade negotiations (somewhat), or his rolling back Obama's policies, save and except of course Obamacare. As I said, I liked his first two years in office.

However, spending isn't all on Congress. He's the President with veto power. His own spending policies were akin to a liberal Democrat. So, you simply cannot give him a pass because Congress was Democrat.

---

but you could give him a partial pass if there was a world wide pandemic which accounts for the mass of his late office spending. Pretty much Everybody got COVID wrong..

---

RDS didn't...

---

apples to oranges

ATL Bear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Aliceinbubbleland said:

---

Are you saying you'd support Trump over Pence?

---

Trump, for all his flaws, basically did a good job when he was in the Oval Office.

---

I have always maintained Trump is far superior to whomever the Dems throw out. But let's not pretend Trump's presidency wasn't a VERY mixed bag, especially his last two years in office. There was some good. Some bad. And some REALLY bad.

He spent like a drunken sailor, failed miserably on his border wall, and his COVID policy and vaccine rollout? Oy vey.

---

You might want to go back and check what he actually did. Spending starts with Congress, for example, and the 'last two years' the Democrats controlled Congress and used every tool available to harass him .

I don't like his style of argument sometimes, and yes he made mistakes (but fewer than either Bush and let's not even pretend his mistakes add up to any of the damage done by Clinton or Obama), and yes I don't want him to be the GOP nominee.

But trashing Trump's foreign policy, his trade negotiations, or his common sense attitude in rolling back Obama's policies, that goes after things we should be supporting and should be protecting against the Left.

God help us if we get Jeb Bush or Marco Rubio or someone like Mitch McConnell to lead our nation.

---

His trade deals have failed miserably. The only things substantive he did was roll back some Obama era regulations and nominate judges he was TOLD to nominate by the Federalist Society and Heritage Foundation.

You bought his self promo as reality. It was anything but.

---

Considering all the things which changed when Trump was replaced by President 'I like sniffing hair' Biden, I'd suggest you look at the immediate steps taken when NAFTA was replaced and China forced to address their IP theft.

China and Mexico reverted when Trump was gone because the Swamp never wanted to lose their Globalist deals.

Oldbear83 said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Aliceinbubbleland said:

---

Are you saying you'd support Trump over Pence?

---

Trump, for all his flaws, basically did a good job when he was in the Oval Office.

---

I have always maintained Trump is far superior to whomever the Dems throw out. But let's not pretend Trump's presidency wasn't a VERY mixed bag, especially his last two years in office. There was some good. Some bad. And some REALLY bad.

He spent like a drunken sailor, failed miserably on his border wall, and his COVID policy and vaccine rollout? Oy vey.

---

You might want to go back and check what he actually did. Spending starts with Congress, for example, and the 'last two years' the Democrats controlled Congress and used every tool available to harass him .

I don't like his style of argument sometimes, and yes he made mistakes (but fewer than either Bush and let's not even pretend his mistakes add up to any of the damage done by Clinton or Obama), and yes I don't want him to be the GOP nominee.

But trashing Trump's foreign policy, his trade negotiations, or his common sense attitude in rolling back Obama's policies, that goes after things we should be supporting and should be protecting against the Left.

God help us if we get Jeb Bush or Marco Rubio or someone like Mitch McConnell to lead our nation.

---

His trade deals have failed miserably. The only things substantive he did was roll back some Obama era regulations and nominate judges he was TOLD to nominate by the Federalist Society and Heritage Foundation.

You bought his self promo as reality. It was anything but.

---

Considering all the things which changed when Trump was replaced by President 'I like sniffing hair' Biden, I'd suggest you look at the immediate steps taken when NAFTA was replaced and China forced to address their IP theft.

China and Mexico reverted when Trump was gone because the Swamp never wanted to lose their Globalist deals.

---

NAFTA was replaced with more NAFTA. Trump picked his winners and losers in his deals the same way "the SWAMP" does.

And China conducted one of the largest IP theft operations in the world during the last two years of Trump. He really had them shaking in their boots with his trade war…

ATL Bear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Aliceinbubbleland said:

---

Are you saying you'd support Trump over Pence?

---

Trump, for all his flaws, basically did a good job when he was in the Oval Office.

---

I have always maintained Trump is far superior to whomever the Dems throw out. But let's not pretend Trump's presidency wasn't a VERY mixed bag, especially his last two years in office. There was some good. Some bad. And some REALLY bad.

He spent like a drunken sailor, failed miserably on his border wall, and his COVID policy and vaccine rollout? Oy vey.

---

You might want to go back and check what he actually did. Spending starts with Congress, for example, and the 'last two years' the Democrats controlled Congress and used every tool available to harass him .

I don't like his style of argument sometimes, and yes he made mistakes (but fewer than either Bush and let's not even pretend his mistakes add up to any of the damage done by Clinton or Obama), and yes I don't want him to be the GOP nominee.

But trashing Trump's foreign policy, his trade negotiations, or his common sense attitude in rolling back Obama's policies, that goes after things we should be supporting and should be protecting against the Left.

God help us if we get Jeb Bush or Marco Rubio or someone like Mitch McConnell to lead our nation.

---

His trade deals have failed miserably. The only things substantive he did was roll back some Obama era regulations and nominate judges he was TOLD to nominate by the Federalist Society and Heritage Foundation.

You bought his self promo as reality. It was anything but.

---

Considering all the things which changed when Trump was replaced by President 'I like sniffing hair' Biden, I'd suggest you look at the immediate steps taken when NAFTA was replaced and China forced to address their IP theft.

China and Mexico reverted when Trump was gone because the Swamp never wanted to lose their Globalist deals.

---

NAFTA was replaced with more NAFTA. Trump picked his winners and losers in his deals the same way "the SWAMP" does.

And China conducted one of the largest IP theft operations in the world during the last two years of Trump. He really had them shaking in their boots with his trade war…

---

Correct. Trump talked tough on China but gave away the farm on issues that mattered.

ATL Bear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Aliceinbubbleland said:

---

Are you saying you'd support Trump over Pence?

---

Trump, for all his flaws, basically did a good job when he was in the Oval Office.

---

I have always maintained Trump is far superior to whomever the Dems throw out. But let's not pretend Trump's presidency wasn't a VERY mixed bag, especially his last two years in office. There was some good. Some bad. And some REALLY bad.

He spent like a drunken sailor, failed miserably on his border wall, and his COVID policy and vaccine rollout? Oy vey.

---

You might want to go back and check what he actually did. Spending starts with Congress, for example, and the 'last two years' the Democrats controlled Congress and used every tool available to harass him .

I don't like his style of argument sometimes, and yes he made mistakes (but fewer than either Bush and let's not even pretend his mistakes add up to any of the damage done by Clinton or Obama), and yes I don't want him to be the GOP nominee.

But trashing Trump's foreign policy, his trade negotiations, or his common sense attitude in rolling back Obama's policies, that goes after things we should be supporting and should be protecting against the Left.

God help us if we get Jeb Bush or Marco Rubio or someone like Mitch McConnell to lead our nation.

---

His trade deals have failed miserably. The only things substantive he did was roll back some Obama era regulations and nominate judges he was TOLD to nominate by the Federalist Society and Heritage Foundation.

You bought his self promo as reality. It was anything but.

---

Considering all the things which changed when Trump was replaced by President 'I like sniffing hair' Biden, I'd suggest you look at the immediate steps taken when NAFTA was replaced and China forced to address their IP theft.

China and Mexico reverted when Trump was gone because the Swamp never wanted to lose their Globalist deals.

---

NAFTA was replaced with more NAFTA. Trump picked his winners and losers in his deals the same way "the SWAMP" does.

And China conducted one of the largest IP theft operations in the world during the last two years of Trump. He really had them shaking in their boots with his trade war…

---

Again, the last 2 years of Trump's Administration he was hijacked by NeverTrumpers in both major parties.

I agree things fell apart then, but if you are honest that was in opposition to Trump, not because of Trump.

And going forward, the only way we avoid economic disaster is to take Trump's lead and protect our manufacturing and industry where we can.

sombear said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Aliceinbubbleland said:

---

Are you saying you'd support Trump over Pence?

---

Trump, for all his flaws, basically did a good job when he was in the Oval Office.

---

I have always maintained Trump is far superior to whomever the Dems throw out. But let's not pretend Trump's presidency wasn't a VERY mixed bag, especially his last two years in office. There was some good. Some bad. And some REALLY bad.

He spent like a drunken sailor, failed miserably on his border wall, and his COVID policy and vaccine rollout? Oy vey.

---

You might want to go back and check what he actually did. Spending starts with Congress, for example, and the 'last two years' the Democrats controlled Congress and used every tool available to harass him .

I don't like his style of argument sometimes, and yes he made mistakes (but fewer than either Bush and let's not even pretend his mistakes add up to any of the damage done by Clinton or Obama), and yes I don't want him to be the GOP nominee.

But trashing Trump's foreign policy, his trade negotiations, or his common sense attitude in rolling back Obama's policies, that goes after things we should be supporting and should be protecting against the Left.

God help us if we get Jeb Bush or Marco Rubio or someone like Mitch McConnell to lead our nation.

---

His trade deals have failed miserably. The only things substantive he did was roll back some Obama era regulations and nominate judges he was TOLD to nominate by the Federalist Society and Heritage Foundation.

You bought his self promo as reality. It was anything but.

---

Considering all the things which changed when Trump was replaced by President 'I like sniffing hair' Biden, I'd suggest you look at the immediate steps taken when NAFTA was replaced and China forced to address their IP theft.

China and Mexico reverted when Trump was gone because the Swamp never wanted to lose their Globalist deals.

---

NAFTA was replaced with more NAFTA. Trump picked his winners and losers in his deals the same way "the SWAMP" does.

And China conducted one of the largest IP theft operations in the world during the last two years of Trump. He really had them shaking in their boots with his trade war…

---

Correct. Trump talked tough on China but gave away the farm on issues that mattered.

---

Revisionist b u l l s h i t.

Oldbear83 said:

---

sombear said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Aliceinbubbleland said:

---

Are you saying you'd support Trump over Pence?

---

Trump, for all his flaws, basically did a good job when he was in the Oval Office.

---

I have always maintained Trump is far superior to whomever the Dems throw out. But let's not pretend Trump's presidency wasn't a VERY mixed bag, especially his last two years in office. There was some good. Some bad. And some REALLY bad.

He spent like a drunken sailor, failed miserably on his border wall, and his COVID policy and vaccine rollout? Oy vey.

---

You might want to go back and check what he actually did. Spending starts with Congress, for example, and the 'last two years' the Democrats controlled Congress and used every tool available to harass him .

I don't like his style of argument sometimes, and yes he made mistakes (but fewer than either Bush and let's not even pretend his mistakes add up to any of the damage done by Clinton or Obama), and yes I don't want him to be the GOP nominee.

But trashing Trump's foreign policy, his trade negotiations, or his common sense attitude in rolling back Obama's policies, that goes after things we should be supporting and should be protecting against the Left.

God help us if we get Jeb Bush or Marco Rubio or someone like Mitch McConnell to lead our nation.

---

His trade deals have failed miserably. The only things substantive he did was roll back some Obama era regulations and nominate judges he was TOLD to nominate by the Federalist Society and Heritage Foundation.

You bought his self promo as reality. It was anything but.

---

Considering all the things which changed when Trump was replaced by President 'I like sniffing hair' Biden, I'd suggest you look at the immediate steps taken when NAFTA was replaced and China forced to address their IP theft.

China and Mexico reverted when Trump was gone because the Swamp never wanted to lose their Globalist deals.

---

NAFTA was replaced with more NAFTA. Trump picked his winners and losers in his deals the same way "the SWAMP" does.

And China conducted one of the largest IP theft operations in the world during the last two years of Trump. He really had them shaking in their boots with his trade war…

---

Correct. Trump talked tough on China but gave away the farm on issues that mattered.

---

Revisionist b u l l s h i t.

---

I agree with you. China hated Trump, he was too unpredictable and forced a level playing field.

Oldbear83 said:

---

sombear said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Aliceinbubbleland said:

---

Are you saying you'd support Trump over Pence?

---

Trump, for all his flaws, basically did a good job when he was in the Oval Office.

---

I have always maintained Trump is far superior to whomever the Dems throw out. But let's not pretend Trump's presidency wasn't a VERY mixed bag, especially his last two years in office. There was some good. Some bad. And some REALLY bad.

He spent like a drunken sailor, failed miserably on his border wall, and his COVID policy and vaccine rollout? Oy vey.

---

You might want to go back and check what he actually did. Spending starts with Congress, for example, and the 'last two years' the Democrats controlled Congress and used every tool available to harass him .

I don't like his style of argument sometimes, and yes he made mistakes (but fewer than either Bush and let's not even pretend his mistakes add up to any of the damage done by Clinton or Obama), and yes I don't want him to be the GOP nominee.

But trashing Trump's foreign policy, his trade negotiations, or his common sense attitude in rolling back Obama's policies, that goes after things we should be supporting and should be protecting against the Left.

God help us if we get Jeb Bush or Marco Rubio or someone like Mitch McConnell to lead our nation.

---

His trade deals have failed miserably. The only things substantive he did was roll back some Obama era regulations and nominate judges he was TOLD to nominate by the Federalist Society and Heritage Foundation.

You bought his self promo as reality. It was anything but.

---

Considering all the things which changed when Trump was replaced by President 'I like sniffing hair' Biden, I'd suggest you look at the immediate steps taken when NAFTA was replaced and China forced to address their IP theft.

China and Mexico reverted when Trump was gone because the Swamp never wanted to lose their Globalist deals.

---

NAFTA was replaced with more NAFTA. Trump picked his winners and losers in his deals the same way "the SWAMP" does.

And China conducted one of the largest IP theft operations in the world during the last two years of Trump. He really had them shaking in their boots with his trade war…

---

Correct. Trump talked tough on China but gave away the farm on issues that mattered.

---

Revisionist b u l l s h i t.

---

What did he do?

Mothra said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Aliceinbubbleland said:

---

A message for rational Republicans. A plea.

From Peggy Noonan

Chris Christie and the Republican Party's Peril:

In some ways he's a match for Trump, whose third nomination would mark the end of the GOP.

If the party chooses Trump in 2024 it will mean it has changed its essential nature and meaning, and that it is split in a way that can't be resolved by time. Republicans of the suburbs, of the more educated and affluent places, won't agree to be the official Trump Forever Party. They just won't. They will leave. Some will go third-party and try to build something there. Some will blend into the Democratic Party and hope they can improve things there.

But there will be no Republican Party after a Trump '24 race, which, again, means the vehicle of conservative thought and policy will be gone.

---

Bull.

Whatever happens, there will be a Republican party after 2024.

And frankly, for all his warts we need Trump far more than we need Peggy Noonan.

---

We need Trump like we need a hole in the head.

---

Some folks simply can not comprrehent or accept the visceral response Trump generates with voters outside of his fan club.

KaiBear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Aliceinbubbleland said:

---

A message for rational Republicans. A plea.

From Peggy Noonan

Chris Christie and the Republican Party's Peril:

In some ways he's a match for Trump, whose third nomination would mark the end of the GOP.

If the party chooses Trump in 2024 it will mean it has changed its essential nature and meaning, and that it is split in a way that can't be resolved by time. Republicans of the suburbs, of the more educated and affluent places, won't agree to be the official Trump Forever Party. They just won't. They will leave. Some will go third-party and try to build something there. Some will blend into the Democratic Party and hope they can improve things there.

But there will be no Republican Party after a Trump '24 race, which, again, means the vehicle of conservative thought and policy will be gone.

---

Bull.

Whatever happens, there will be a Republican party after 2024.

And frankly, for all his warts we need Trump far more than we need Peggy Noonan.

---

We need Trump like we need a hole in the head.

---

Some folks simply can not comprrehent or accept the visceral response Trump generates with voters outside of his fan club.

---

Once again, I am not supporting Trump in 2024, but if you want to win the White House you better accept the fact that his Base is far more influential and substantive than just a "fan club".

ATL Bear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Aliceinbubbleland said:

---

Are you saying you'd support Trump over Pence?

---

Trump, for all his flaws, basically did a good job when he was in the Oval Office.

---

I have always maintained Trump is far superior to whomever the Dems throw out. But let's not pretend Trump's presidency wasn't a VERY mixed bag, especially his last two years in office. There was some good. Some bad. And some REALLY bad.

He spent like a drunken sailor, failed miserably on his border wall, and his COVID policy and vaccine rollout? Oy vey.

---

You might want to go back and check what he actually did. Spending starts with Congress, for example, and the 'last two years' the Democrats controlled Congress and used every tool available to harass him .

I don't like his style of argument sometimes, and yes he made mistakes (but fewer than either Bush and let's not even pretend his mistakes add up to any of the damage done by Clinton or Obama), and yes I don't want him to be the GOP nominee.

But trashing Trump's foreign policy, his trade negotiations, or his common sense attitude in rolling back Obama's policies, that goes after things we should be supporting and should be protecting against the Left.

God help us if we get Jeb Bush or Marco Rubio or someone like Mitch McConnell to lead our nation.

---

His trade deals have failed miserably...

---

too harsh. His term marked a historic inflection point on China. Changed the dynamic, forced the system to realize that the model was coming to an end (like with it or not), which gave us a bit of a head start when Covid delivered the coup de grace.

The rationale for Globalism ended in 1992. The ship of state drifted along in the channel for another two decades-plus on momentum, entrenched interests clutching pearls......business interests demanding to hang on to business models, politicians not being willing to upset donors, cultural addiction to open society ideology, etc.... Trump was the first POTUS to actually grab the ship's wheel and force the battleship starting to make the slow turn toward another course. Biden has largely continued the same policy and it will STILL take years for the new supply chains to completely coalesce.

One can quibble with the length of the list of outstanding details without minimizing the foresight and courage to force the make the course correction NOW rather than do what all of his predecessors had done....nothing, while hoping for serendipity to do the dirty work for them.

4th and Inches said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Aliceinbubbleland said:

---

Are you saying you'd support Trump over Pence?

---

Trump, for all his flaws, basically did a good job when he was in the Oval Office.

---

I have always maintained Trump is far superior to whomever the Dems throw out. But let's not pretend Trump's presidency wasn't a VERY mixed bag, especially his last two years in office. There was some good. Some bad. And some REALLY bad.

He spent like a drunken sailor, failed miserably on his border wall, and his COVID policy and vaccine rollout? Oy vey.

---

You might want to go back and check what he actually did. Spending starts with Congress, for example, and the 'last two years' the Democrats controlled Congress and used every tool available to harass him .

I don't like his style of argument sometimes, and yes he made mistakes (but fewer than either Bush and let's not even pretend his mistakes add up to any of the damage done by Clinton or Obama), and yes I don't want him to be the GOP nominee.

But trashing Trump's foreign policy, his trade negotiations, or his common sense attitude in rolling back Obama's policies, that goes after things we should be supporting and should be protecting against the Left.

God help us if we get Jeb Bush or Marco Rubio or someone like Mitch McConnell to lead our nation.

---

I don't disagree with you about his foreign policy, his trade negotiations (somewhat), or his rolling back Obama's policies, save and except of course Obamacare. As I said, I liked his first two years in office.

However, spending isn't all on Congress. He's the President with veto power. His own spending policies were akin to a liberal Democrat. So, you simply cannot give him a pass because Congress was Democrat.

---

but you could give him a partial pass if there was a world wide pandemic which accounts for the mass of his late office spending. Pretty much Everybody got COVID wrong..

---

RDS didn't...

---

apples to oranges

---

The credit due to RDS was in being willing to recognize that initial steps at state and federal level were ineffective and undue infringements of liberty, then make prudent policy adjustments. The stats on deaths & such are not the proper benchmarks. Virus gonna virus. The real value of his policies are that he got his state thru it a little better than average with far less draconian impacts on the people and businesses than many other states (and particularly blue ones) experienced.

I think we should see his campaign message reflect that theme, a "freedom" emphasis, because I think that is what resonate with most people, the greatest single reason for the RDS buzz. It's what's driving the population shifts from red-to-blue. It's what got him his big re-election win.

whiterock said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Aliceinbubbleland said:

---

Are you saying you'd support Trump over Pence?

---

Trump, for all his flaws, basically did a good job when he was in the Oval Office.

---

I have always maintained Trump is far superior to whomever the Dems throw out. But let's not pretend Trump's presidency wasn't a VERY mixed bag, especially his last two years in office. There was some good. Some bad. And some REALLY bad.

He spent like a drunken sailor, failed miserably on his border wall, and his COVID policy and vaccine rollout? Oy vey.

---

You might want to go back and check what he actually did. Spending starts with Congress, for example, and the 'last two years' the Democrats controlled Congress and used every tool available to harass him .

I don't like his style of argument sometimes, and yes he made mistakes (but fewer than either Bush and let's not even pretend his mistakes add up to any of the damage done by Clinton or Obama), and yes I don't want him to be the GOP nominee.

But trashing Trump's foreign policy, his trade negotiations, or his common sense attitude in rolling back Obama's policies, that goes after things we should be supporting and should be protecting against the Left.

God help us if we get Jeb Bush or Marco Rubio or someone like Mitch McConnell to lead our nation.

---

I don't disagree with you about his foreign policy, his trade negotiations (somewhat), or his rolling back Obama's policies, save and except of course Obamacare. As I said, I liked his first two years in office.

However, spending isn't all on Congress. He's the President with veto power. His own spending policies were akin to a liberal Democrat. So, you simply cannot give him a pass because Congress was Democrat.

---

but you could give him a partial pass if there was a world wide pandemic which accounts for the mass of his late office spending. Pretty much Everybody got COVID wrong..

---

RDS didn't...

---

apples to oranges

---

The credit due to RDS was in being willing to recognize that initial steps at state and federal level were ineffective and undue infringements of liberty, then make prudent policy adjustments. The stats on deaths & such are not the proper benchmarks. Virus gonna virus. The real value of his policies are that he got his state thru it a little better than average with far less draconian impacts on the people and businesses than many other states (and particularly blue ones) experienced.

I think we should see his campaign message reflect that theme, a "freedom" emphasis, because I think that is what resonate with most people, the greatest single reason for the RDS buzz. It's what's driving the population shifts from red-to-blue. It's what got him his big re-election win.

---

RDS did a good job of running his state, he was never tasked with coordinating with 50 state govts and administrating at the fed level. Its apples to oranges.

4th and Inches said:

---

whiterock said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Aliceinbubbleland said:

---

Are you saying you'd support Trump over Pence?

---

Trump, for all his flaws, basically did a good job when he was in the Oval Office.

---

I have always maintained Trump is far superior to whomever the Dems throw out. But let's not pretend Trump's presidency wasn't a VERY mixed bag, especially his last two years in office. There was some good. Some bad. And some REALLY bad.

He spent like a drunken sailor, failed miserably on his border wall, and his COVID policy and vaccine rollout? Oy vey.

---

You might want to go back and check what he actually did. Spending starts with Congress, for example, and the 'last two years' the Democrats controlled Congress and used every tool available to harass him .

I don't like his style of argument sometimes, and yes he made mistakes (but fewer than either Bush and let's not even pretend his mistakes add up to any of the damage done by Clinton or Obama), and yes I don't want him to be the GOP nominee.

But trashing Trump's foreign policy, his trade negotiations, or his common sense attitude in rolling back Obama's policies, that goes after things we should be supporting and should be protecting against the Left.

God help us if we get Jeb Bush or Marco Rubio or someone like Mitch McConnell to lead our nation.

---

I don't disagree with you about his foreign policy, his trade negotiations (somewhat), or his rolling back Obama's policies, save and except of course Obamacare. As I said, I liked his first two years in office.

However, spending isn't all on Congress. He's the President with veto power. His own spending policies were akin to a liberal Democrat. So, you simply cannot give him a pass because Congress was Democrat.

---

but you could give him a partial pass if there was a world wide pandemic which accounts for the mass of his late office spending. Pretty much Everybody got COVID wrong..

---

RDS didn't...

---

apples to oranges

---

The credit due to RDS was in being willing to recognize that initial steps at state and federal level were ineffective and undue infringements of liberty, then make prudent policy adjustments. The stats on deaths & such are not the proper benchmarks. Virus gonna virus. The real value of his policies are that he got his state thru it a little better than average with far less draconian impacts on the people and businesses than many other states (and particularly blue ones) experienced.

I think we should see his campaign message reflect that theme, a "freedom" emphasis, because I think that is what resonate with most people, the greatest single reason for the RDS buzz. It's what's driving the population shifts from red-to-blue. It's what got him his big re-election win.

---

RDS did a good job of running his state, he was never tasked with coordinating with 50 state govts and administrating at the fed level. Its apples to oranges.

---

agreed. my point is not about his skill in pandemic statecraft, what he DID do, if you will, but rather the philosophical significance of what he did NOT do. He chose to defer power back to the private sector and individual to a degree few other governors did. And among those who were similarly inclined, he consistently led rather than followed. THAT is ultimately what elevated him to the position he enjoys now - sticking to a classically conservative approach to governance in a crisis when most around him lost their heads. That is what a majority of the national public is wanting....get govt out of our lives, to stop the "state sanctioned chaos."

It's an area where he can draw sharp distinction with Trump, who fairly owns the burden of responsibility for both the shutdown and, at least in part, its duration. Trump COULD have pushed harder to open more and more quickly. Of course we discuss that today with the benefit of hindsight, but hindsight still matters and this particular piece of it offers an effective angle for Desantis to work.

whiterock said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Aliceinbubbleland said:

---

Are you saying you'd support Trump over Pence?

---

Trump, for all his flaws, basically did a good job when he was in the Oval Office.

---

I have always maintained Trump is far superior to whomever the Dems throw out. But let's not pretend Trump's presidency wasn't a VERY mixed bag, especially his last two years in office. There was some good. Some bad. And some REALLY bad.

He spent like a drunken sailor, failed miserably on his border wall, and his COVID policy and vaccine rollout? Oy vey.

---

You might want to go back and check what he actually did. Spending starts with Congress, for example, and the 'last two years' the Democrats controlled Congress and used every tool available to harass him .

I don't like his style of argument sometimes, and yes he made mistakes (but fewer than either Bush and let's not even pretend his mistakes add up to any of the damage done by Clinton or Obama), and yes I don't want him to be the GOP nominee.

But trashing Trump's foreign policy, his trade negotiations, or his common sense attitude in rolling back Obama's policies, that goes after things we should be supporting and should be protecting against the Left.

God help us if we get Jeb Bush or Marco Rubio or someone like Mitch McConnell to lead our nation.

---

I don't disagree with you about his foreign policy, his trade negotiations (somewhat), or his rolling back Obama's policies, save and except of course Obamacare. As I said, I liked his first two years in office.

However, spending isn't all on Congress. He's the President with veto power. His own spending policies were akin to a liberal Democrat. So, you simply cannot give him a pass because Congress was Democrat.

---

but you could give him a partial pass if there was a world wide pandemic which accounts for the mass of his late office spending. Pretty much Everybody got COVID wrong..

---

RDS didn't...

---

apples to oranges

---

The credit due to RDS was in being willing to recognize that initial steps at state and federal level were ineffective and undue infringements of liberty, then make prudent policy adjustments. The stats on deaths & such are not the proper benchmarks. Virus gonna virus. The real value of his policies are that he got his state thru it a little better than average with far less draconian impacts on the people and businesses than many other states (and particularly blue ones) experienced.

I think we should see his campaign message reflect that theme, a "freedom" emphasis, because I think that is what resonate with most people, the greatest single reason for the RDS buzz. It's what's driving the population shifts from red-to-blue. It's what got him his big re-election win.

---

A little better than average? I live in Florida, we were down for 1.5 months in 2020. After that it was business as usual. My wife is a Nurse at a major hosptial, the medical response was very good under his direction and we have a higher amount of elderly than almost any other state. I don't think "a little better" is accurate. Without RDS, Florida shuts down. He single-handedly kept the State going. Seems to be downplayed now. I am sure they will try to find or create some metric to make it look worse.

whiterock said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Aliceinbubbleland said:

---

Are you saying you'd support Trump over Pence?

---

Trump, for all his flaws, basically did a good job when he was in the Oval Office.

---

I have always maintained Trump is far superior to whomever the Dems throw out. But let's not pretend Trump's presidency wasn't a VERY mixed bag, especially his last two years in office. There was some good. Some bad. And some REALLY bad.

He spent like a drunken sailor, failed miserably on his border wall, and his COVID policy and vaccine rollout? Oy vey.

---

You might want to go back and check what he actually did. Spending starts with Congress, for example, and the 'last two years' the Democrats controlled Congress and used every tool available to harass him .

I don't like his style of argument sometimes, and yes he made mistakes (but fewer than either Bush and let's not even pretend his mistakes add up to any of the damage done by Clinton or Obama), and yes I don't want him to be the GOP nominee.

But trashing Trump's foreign policy, his trade negotiations, or his common sense attitude in rolling back Obama's policies, that goes after things we should be supporting and should be protecting against the Left.

God help us if we get Jeb Bush or Marco Rubio or someone like Mitch McConnell to lead our nation.

---

His trade deals have failed miserably...

---

too harsh. His term marked a historic inflection point on China. Changed the dynamic, forced the system to realize that the model was coming to an end (like with it or not), which gave us a bit of a head start when Covid delivered the coup de grace.

The rationale for Globalism ended in 1992. The ship of state drifted along in the channel for another two decades-plus on momentum, entrenched interests clutching pearls......business interests demanding to hang on to business models, politicians not being willing to upset donors, cultural addiction to open society ideology, etc.... Trump was the first POTUS to actually grab the ship's wheel and force the battleship starting to make the slow turn toward another course. Biden has largely continued the same policy and it will STILL take years for the new supply chains to completely coalesce.

One can quibble with the length of the list of outstanding details without minimizing the foresight and courage to force the make the course correction NOW rather than do what all of his predecessors had done....nothing, while hoping for serendipity to do the dirty work for them.

---

We can't do what China does, or several other nations like Taiwan, for the supply chain. Trump played into old Labor Union tropes that are populism popular, but impractical unless you change the workforce dynamic and expectations, which the latter is NOT popular in politics or discussion. He did nothing to adjust global realities, and only brought formerly democrat labor populism into the Republican tent. The man who screwed the Service Employees Union in his Trump Casino bankruptcies as the champion of labor has to be one of the more ironic turnabouts in politics.

ATL Bear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Aliceinbubbleland said:

---

Are you saying you'd support Trump over Pence?

---

Trump, for all his flaws, basically did a good job when he was in the Oval Office.

---

I have always maintained Trump is far superior to whomever the Dems throw out. But let's not pretend Trump's presidency wasn't a VERY mixed bag, especially his last two years in office. There was some good. Some bad. And some REALLY bad.

He spent like a drunken sailor, failed miserably on his border wall, and his COVID policy and vaccine rollout? Oy vey.

---

You might want to go back and check what he actually did. Spending starts with Congress, for example, and the 'last two years' the Democrats controlled Congress and used every tool available to harass him .

I don't like his style of argument sometimes, and yes he made mistakes (but fewer than either Bush and let's not even pretend his mistakes add up to any of the damage done by Clinton or Obama), and yes I don't want him to be the GOP nominee.

But trashing Trump's foreign policy, his trade negotiations, or his common sense attitude in rolling back Obama's policies, that goes after things we should be supporting and should be protecting against the Left.

God help us if we get Jeb Bush or Marco Rubio or someone like Mitch McConnell to lead our nation.

---

His trade deals have failed miserably...

---

too harsh. His term marked a historic inflection point on China. Changed the dynamic, forced the system to realize that the model was coming to an end (like with it or not), which gave us a bit of a head start when Covid delivered the coup de grace.

The rationale for Globalism ended in 1992. The ship of state drifted along in the channel for another two decades-plus on momentum, entrenched interests clutching pearls......business interests demanding to hang on to business models, politicians not being willing to upset donors, cultural addiction to open society ideology, etc.... Trump was the first POTUS to actually grab the ship's wheel and force the battleship starting to make the slow turn toward another course. Biden has largely continued the same policy and it will STILL take years for the new supply chains to completely coalesce.

One can quibble with the length of the list of outstanding details without minimizing the foresight and courage to force the make the course correction NOW rather than do what all of his predecessors had done....nothing, while hoping for serendipity to do the dirty work for them.

---

We can't do what China does, or several other nations like Taiwan, for the supply chain. Trump played into old Labor Union tropes that are populism popular, but impractical unless you change the workforce dynamic and expectations, which the latter is NOT popular in politics or discussion. He did nothing to adjust global realities, and only brought formerly democrat labor populism into the Republican tent. The man who screwed the Service Employees Union in his Trump Casino bankruptcies as the champion of labor has to be one of the more ironic turnabouts in politics.

---

Did you major in Hypocrisy, or does it just come out whenever you post about Trump?

ATL Bear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Aliceinbubbleland said:

---

Are you saying you'd support Trump over Pence?

---

Trump, for all his flaws, basically did a good job when he was in the Oval Office.

---

I have always maintained Trump is far superior to whomever the Dems throw out. But let's not pretend Trump's presidency wasn't a VERY mixed bag, especially his last two years in office. There was some good. Some bad. And some REALLY bad.

He spent like a drunken sailor, failed miserably on his border wall, and his COVID policy and vaccine rollout? Oy vey.

---

You might want to go back and check what he actually did. Spending starts with Congress, for example, and the 'last two years' the Democrats controlled Congress and used every tool available to harass him .

I don't like his style of argument sometimes, and yes he made mistakes (but fewer than either Bush and let's not even pretend his mistakes add up to any of the damage done by Clinton or Obama), and yes I don't want him to be the GOP nominee.

But trashing Trump's foreign policy, his trade negotiations, or his common sense attitude in rolling back Obama's policies, that goes after things we should be supporting and should be protecting against the Left.

God help us if we get Jeb Bush or Marco Rubio or someone like Mitch McConnell to lead our nation.

---

His trade deals have failed miserably...

---

too harsh. His term marked a historic inflection point on China. Changed the dynamic, forced the system to realize that the model was coming to an end (like with it or not), which gave us a bit of a head start when Covid delivered the coup de grace.

The rationale for Globalism ended in 1992. The ship of state drifted along in the channel for another two decades-plus on momentum, entrenched interests clutching pearls......business interests demanding to hang on to business models, politicians not being willing to upset donors, cultural addiction to open society ideology, etc.... Trump was the first POTUS to actually grab the ship's wheel and force the battleship starting to make the slow turn toward another course. Biden has largely continued the same policy and it will STILL take years for the new supply chains to completely coalesce.

One can quibble with the length of the list of outstanding details without minimizing the foresight and courage to force the make the course correction NOW rather than do what all of his predecessors had done....nothing, while hoping for serendipity to do the dirty work for them.

---

The man who screwed the Service Employees Union in his Trump Casino bankruptcies as the champion of labor has to be one of the more ironic turnabouts in politics.

---

And if it is? That's politics.

Good one….

I'd like to clear up a misunderstanding. I have no special affection or preference for Ron of House DeSantis, First of His Name, Re-opener of Businesses, Pornslayer, the Father of Florida and Free Men, the Unwoke, the Destroyer of Disney.

I was given a check the day I knelt…

— Seth Dillon (@SethDillon) June 4, 2023

I genuinely have no idea how anyone could support Trump over DeSantis. Ironically, Trump continues to run to the left of DeSantis, which seems odd given Trump's core constituency. DeSantis has a strong track record of economic and social success, and he won big in 2022 whereas all of Trump's candidates under-performed and most lost. The regime media already is positioning DeSantis as worse than Trump, so that fully demonstrates what it wants and who it thinks can win. As noted, there are too many that have a negative response to Trump as 2022 demonstrated.

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

I genuinely have no idea how anyone could support Trump over DeSantis.

---

1.. They are threatened by diversity: i.e. The Wall appeal.
2. They are not fiscal conservative by any means: It is not about money to them.
3, They believe in conspiracies because it is more exciting than fact.
4. Who else could the MTG's and the Colorado kook woman types support if not Trump?
5. Fake Christians who always spout but do not practice.

Then there are the generally reasonable voters who care about family values and education who do not want a woke Democrat in office.

If you look at the swing states and not the red ones you will see it is almost 49/51 up there in support of the last sentence.

Oldbear83 said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Aliceinbubbleland said:

---

Are you saying you'd support Trump over Pence?

---

Trump, for all his flaws, basically did a good job when he was in the Oval Office.

---

I have always maintained Trump is far superior to whomever the Dems throw out. But let's not pretend Trump's presidency wasn't a VERY mixed bag, especially his last two years in office. There was some good. Some bad. And some REALLY bad.

He spent like a drunken sailor, failed miserably on his border wall, and his COVID policy and vaccine rollout? Oy vey.

---

You might want to go back and check what he actually did. Spending starts with Congress, for example, and the 'last two years' the Democrats controlled Congress and used every tool available to harass him .

I don't like his style of argument sometimes, and yes he made mistakes (but fewer than either Bush and let's not even pretend his mistakes add up to any of the damage done by Clinton or Obama), and yes I don't want him to be the GOP nominee.

But trashing Trump's foreign policy, his trade negotiations, or his common sense attitude in rolling back Obama's policies, that goes after things we should be supporting and should be protecting against the Left.

God help us if we get Jeb Bush or Marco Rubio or someone like Mitch McConnell to lead our nation.

---

His trade deals have failed miserably...

---

too harsh. His term marked a historic inflection point on China. Changed the dynamic, forced the system to realize that the model was coming to an end (like with it or not), which gave us a bit of a head start when Covid delivered the coup de grace.

The rationale for Globalism ended in 1992. The ship of state drifted along in the channel for another two decades-plus on momentum, entrenched interests clutching pearls......business interests demanding to hang on to business models, politicians not being willing to upset donors, cultural addiction to open society ideology, etc.... Trump was the first POTUS to actually grab the ship's wheel and force the battleship starting to make the slow turn toward another course. Biden has largely continued the same policy and it will STILL take years for the new supply chains to completely coalesce.

One can quibble with the length of the list of outstanding details without minimizing the foresight and courage to force the make the course correction NOW rather than do what all of his predecessors had done....nothing, while hoping for serendipity to do the dirty work for them.

---

We can't do what China does, or several other nations like Taiwan, for the supply chain. Trump played into old Labor Union tropes that are populism popular, but impractical unless you change the workforce dynamic and expectations, which the latter is NOT popular in politics or discussion. He did nothing to adjust global realities, and only brought formerly democrat labor populism into the Republican tent. The man who screwed the Service Employees Union in his Trump Casino bankruptcies as the champion of labor has to be one of the more ironic turnabouts in politics.

---

Did you major in Hypocrisy, or does it just come out whenever you post about Trump?

---

You'll have to enlighten me on the hypocrisy Mr. Ted Cruz supporter...

Sam Lowry said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Aliceinbubbleland said:

---

Are you saying you'd support Trump over Pence?

---

Trump, for all his flaws, basically did a good job when he was in the Oval Office.

---

I have always maintained Trump is far superior to whomever the Dems throw out. But let's not pretend Trump's presidency wasn't a VERY mixed bag, especially his last two years in office. There was some good. Some bad. And some REALLY bad.

He spent like a drunken sailor, failed miserably on his border wall, and his COVID policy and vaccine rollout? Oy vey.

---

You might want to go back and check what he actually did. Spending starts with Congress, for example, and the 'last two years' the Democrats controlled Congress and used every tool available to harass him .

I don't like his style of argument sometimes, and yes he made mistakes (but fewer than either Bush and let's not even pretend his mistakes add up to any of the damage done by Clinton or Obama), and yes I don't want him to be the GOP nominee.

But trashing Trump's foreign policy, his trade negotiations, or his common sense attitude in rolling back Obama's policies, that goes after things we should be supporting and should be protecting against the Left.

God help us if we get Jeb Bush or Marco Rubio or someone like Mitch McConnell to lead our nation.

---

His trade deals have failed miserably...

---

too harsh. His term marked a historic inflection point on China. Changed the dynamic, forced the system to realize that the model was coming to an end (like with it or not), which gave us a bit of a head start when Covid delivered the coup de grace.

The rationale for Globalism ended in 1992. The ship of state drifted along in the channel for another two decades-plus on momentum, entrenched interests clutching pearls......business interests demanding to hang on to business models, politicians not being willing to upset donors, cultural addiction to open society ideology, etc.... Trump was the first POTUS to actually grab the ship's wheel and force the battleship starting to make the slow turn toward another course. Biden has largely continued the same policy and it will STILL take years for the new supply chains to completely coalesce.

One can quibble with the length of the list of outstanding details without minimizing the foresight and courage to force the make the course correction NOW rather than do what all of his predecessors had done....nothing, while hoping for serendipity to do the dirty work for them.

---

The man who screwed the Service Employees Union in his Trump Casino bankruptcies as the champion of labor has to be one of the more ironic turnabouts in politics.

---

And if it is? That's politics.

---

Sure, but it was the same year. Usually it takes a bit to marinate and "clarify" one's position.

ATL Bear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Aliceinbubbleland said:

---

Are you saying you'd support Trump over Pence?

---

Trump, for all his flaws, basically did a good job when he was in the Oval Office.

---

I have always maintained Trump is far superior to whomever the Dems throw out. But let's not pretend Trump's presidency wasn't a VERY mixed bag, especially his last two years in office. There was some good. Some bad. And some REALLY bad.

He spent like a drunken sailor, failed miserably on his border wall, and his COVID policy and vaccine rollout? Oy vey.

---

You might want to go back and check what he actually did. Spending starts with Congress, for example, and the 'last two years' the Democrats controlled Congress and used every tool available to harass him .

I don't like his style of argument sometimes, and yes he made mistakes (but fewer than either Bush and let's not even pretend his mistakes add up to any of the damage done by Clinton or Obama), and yes I don't want him to be the GOP nominee.

But trashing Trump's foreign policy, his trade negotiations, or his common sense attitude in rolling back Obama's policies, that goes after things we should be supporting and should be protecting against the Left.

God help us if we get Jeb Bush or Marco Rubio or someone like Mitch McConnell to lead our nation.

---

His trade deals have failed miserably...

---

too harsh. His term marked a historic inflection point on China. Changed the dynamic, forced the system to realize that the model was coming to an end (like with it or not), which gave us a bit of a head start when Covid delivered the coup de grace.

The rationale for Globalism ended in 1992. The ship of state drifted along in the channel for another two decades-plus on momentum, entrenched interests clutching pearls......business interests demanding to hang on to business models, politicians not being willing to upset donors, cultural addiction to open society ideology, etc.... Trump was the first POTUS to actually grab the ship's wheel and force the battleship starting to make the slow turn toward another course. Biden has largely continued the same policy and it will STILL take years for the new supply chains to completely coalesce.

One can quibble with the length of the list of outstanding details without minimizing the foresight and courage to force the make the course correction NOW rather than do what all of his predecessors had done....nothing, while hoping for serendipity to do the dirty work for them.

---

The man who screwed the Service Employees Union in his Trump Casino bankruptcies as the champion of labor has to be one of the more ironic turnabouts in politics.

---

And if it is? That's politics.

---

Sure, but it was the same year. Usually it takes a bit to marinate and "clarify" one's position.

---

He's been talking about jobs, trade, and globalization for a long time. I don't know how successful his efforts will be in the long run, but I do give him credit for mainstreaming the issue.

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

I genuinely have no idea how anyone could support Trump over DeSantis.

---

This is what happens when, "Stick it to the libs" is your #1 motivation and everything else is a distant second.

Sam Lowry said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Aliceinbubbleland said:

---

Are you saying you'd support Trump over Pence?

---

Trump, for all his flaws, basically did a good job when he was in the Oval Office.

---

I have always maintained Trump is far superior to whomever the Dems throw out. But let's not pretend Trump's presidency wasn't a VERY mixed bag, especially his last two years in office. There was some good. Some bad. And some REALLY bad.

He spent like a drunken sailor, failed miserably on his border wall, and his COVID policy and vaccine rollout? Oy vey.

---

You might want to go back and check what he actually did. Spending starts with Congress, for example, and the 'last two years' the Democrats controlled Congress and used every tool available to harass him .

I don't like his style of argument sometimes, and yes he made mistakes (but fewer than either Bush and let's not even pretend his mistakes add up to any of the damage done by Clinton or Obama), and yes I don't want him to be the GOP nominee.

But trashing Trump's foreign policy, his trade negotiations, or his common sense attitude in rolling back Obama's policies, that goes after things we should be supporting and should be protecting against the Left.

God help us if we get Jeb Bush or Marco Rubio or someone like Mitch McConnell to lead our nation.

---

His trade deals have failed miserably...

---

too harsh. His term marked a historic inflection point on China. Changed the dynamic, forced the system to realize that the model was coming to an end (like with it or not), which gave us a bit of a head start when Covid delivered the coup de grace.

The rationale for Globalism ended in 1992. The ship of state drifted along in the channel for another two decades-plus on momentum, entrenched interests clutching pearls......business interests demanding to hang on to business models, politicians not being willing to upset donors, cultural addiction to open society ideology, etc.... Trump was the first POTUS to actually grab the ship's wheel and force the battleship starting to make the slow turn toward another course. Biden has largely continued the same policy and it will STILL take years for the new supply chains to completely coalesce.

One can quibble with the length of the list of outstanding details without minimizing the foresight and courage to force the make the course correction NOW rather than do what all of his predecessors had done....nothing, while hoping for serendipity to do the dirty work for them.

---

The man who screwed the Service Employees Union in his Trump Casino bankruptcies as the champion of labor has to be one of the more ironic turnabouts in politics.

---

And if it is? That's politics.

---

Sure, but it was the same year. Usually it takes a bit to marinate and "clarify" one's position.

---

He's been talking about jobs, trade, and globalization for a long time. I don't know how successful his efforts will be in the long run, but I do give him credit for mainstreaming the issue.

---

Everyone talks about jobs, trade, and globalization. He didn't mainstream anything. But no one has the gall to talk about them from a realistic perspective, including Trump. Pandering is pandering regardless of your emotive method of choice.

ATL Bear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Aliceinbubbleland said:

---

Are you saying you'd support Trump over Pence?

---

Trump, for all his flaws, basically did a good job when he was in the Oval Office.

---

I have always maintained Trump is far superior to whomever the Dems throw out. But let's not pretend Trump's presidency wasn't a VERY mixed bag, especially his last two years in office. There was some good. Some bad. And some REALLY bad.

He spent like a drunken sailor, failed miserably on his border wall, and his COVID policy and vaccine rollout? Oy vey.

---

You might want to go back and check what he actually did. Spending starts with Congress, for example, and the 'last two years' the Democrats controlled Congress and used every tool available to harass him .

I don't like his style of argument sometimes, and yes he made mistakes (but fewer than either Bush and let's not even pretend his mistakes add up to any of the damage done by Clinton or Obama), and yes I don't want him to be the GOP nominee.

But trashing Trump's foreign policy, his trade negotiations, or his common sense attitude in rolling back Obama's policies, that goes after things we should be supporting and should be protecting against the Left.

God help us if we get Jeb Bush or Marco Rubio or someone like Mitch McConnell to lead our nation.

---

His trade deals have failed miserably...

---

too harsh. His term marked a historic inflection point on China. Changed the dynamic, forced the system to realize that the model was coming to an end (like with it or not), which gave us a bit of a head start when Covid delivered the coup de grace.

The rationale for Globalism ended in 1992. The ship of state drifted along in the channel for another two decades-plus on momentum, entrenched interests clutching pearls......business interests demanding to hang on to business models, politicians not being willing to upset donors, cultural addiction to open society ideology, etc.... Trump was the first POTUS to actually grab the ship's wheel and force the battleship starting to make the slow turn toward another course. Biden has largely continued the same policy and it will STILL take years for the new supply chains to completely coalesce.

One can quibble with the length of the list of outstanding details without minimizing the foresight and courage to force the make the course correction NOW rather than do what all of his predecessors had done....nothing, while hoping for serendipity to do the dirty work for them.

---

The man who screwed the Service Employees Union in his Trump Casino bankruptcies as the champion of labor has to be one of the more ironic turnabouts in politics.

---

And if it is? That's politics.

---

Sure, but it was the same year. Usually it takes a bit to marinate and "clarify" one's position.

---

He's been talking about jobs, trade, and globalization for a long time. I don't know how successful his efforts will be in the long run, but I do give him credit for mainstreaming the issue.

---

Everyone talks about jobs, trade, and globalization. He didn't mainstream anything. But no one has the gall to talk about them from a realistic perspective, including Trump. Pandering is pandering regardless of your emotive method of choice.

---

Not everyone talks about it in terms of "America first." That perspective had no real place in the debate before.

Sam Lowry said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Aliceinbubbleland said:

---

Are you saying you'd support Trump over Pence?

---

Trump, for all his flaws, basically did a good job when he was in the Oval Office.

---

I have always maintained Trump is far superior to whomever the Dems throw out. But let's not pretend Trump's presidency wasn't a VERY mixed bag, especially his last two years in office. There was some good. Some bad. And some REALLY bad.

He spent like a drunken sailor, failed miserably on his border wall, and his COVID policy and vaccine rollout? Oy vey.

---

You might want to go back and check what he actually did. Spending starts with Congress, for example, and the 'last two years' the Democrats controlled Congress and used every tool available to harass him .

I don't like his style of argument sometimes, and yes he made mistakes (but fewer than either Bush and let's not even pretend his mistakes add up to any of the damage done by Clinton or Obama), and yes I don't want him to be the GOP nominee.

But trashing Trump's foreign policy, his trade negotiations, or his common sense attitude in rolling back Obama's policies, that goes after things we should be supporting and should be protecting against the Left.

God help us if we get Jeb Bush or Marco Rubio or someone like Mitch McConnell to lead our nation.

---

His trade deals have failed miserably...

---

too harsh. His term marked a historic inflection point on China. Changed the dynamic, forced the system to realize that the model was coming to an end (like with it or not), which gave us a bit of a head start when Covid delivered the coup de grace.

The rationale for Globalism ended in 1992. The ship of state drifted along in the channel for another two decades-plus on momentum, entrenched interests clutching pearls......business interests demanding to hang on to business models, politicians not being willing to upset donors, cultural addiction to open society ideology, etc.... Trump was the first POTUS to actually grab the ship's wheel and force the battleship starting to make the slow turn toward another course. Biden has largely continued the same policy and it will STILL take years for the new supply chains to completely coalesce.

One can quibble with the length of the list of outstanding details without minimizing the foresight and courage to force the make the course correction NOW rather than do what all of his predecessors had done....nothing, while hoping for serendipity to do the dirty work for them.

---

The man who screwed the Service Employees Union in his Trump Casino bankruptcies as the champion of labor has to be one of the more ironic turnabouts in politics.

---

And if it is? That's politics.

---

Sure, but it was the same year. Usually it takes a bit to marinate and "clarify" one's position.

---

He's been talking about jobs, trade, and globalization for a long time. I don't know how successful his efforts will be in the long run, but I do give him credit for mainstreaming the issue.

---

Everyone talks about jobs, trade, and globalization. He didn't mainstream anything. But no one has the gall to talk about them from a realistic perspective, including Trump. Pandering is pandering regardless of your emotive method of choice.

---

Not everyone talks about it in terms of "America first." That perspective had no real place in the debate before.

---

Neither did indictments or insurrections

Sam Lowry said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Aliceinbubbleland said:

---

Are you saying you'd support Trump over Pence?

---

Trump, for all his flaws, basically did a good job when he was in the Oval Office.

---

I have always maintained Trump is far superior to whomever the Dems throw out. But let's not pretend Trump's presidency wasn't a VERY mixed bag, especially his last two years in office. There was some good. Some bad. And some REALLY bad.

He spent like a drunken sailor, failed miserably on his border wall, and his COVID policy and vaccine rollout? Oy vey.

---

You might want to go back and check what he actually did. Spending starts with Congress, for example, and the 'last two years' the Democrats controlled Congress and used every tool available to harass him .

I don't like his style of argument sometimes, and yes he made mistakes (but fewer than either Bush and let's not even pretend his mistakes add up to any of the damage done by Clinton or Obama), and yes I don't want him to be the GOP nominee.

But trashing Trump's foreign policy, his trade negotiations, or his common sense attitude in rolling back Obama's policies, that goes after things we should be supporting and should be protecting against the Left.

God help us if we get Jeb Bush or Marco Rubio or someone like Mitch McConnell to lead our nation.

---

His trade deals have failed miserably...

---

too harsh. His term marked a historic inflection point on China. Changed the dynamic, forced the system to realize that the model was coming to an end (like with it or not), which gave us a bit of a head start when Covid delivered the coup de grace.

The rationale for Globalism ended in 1992. The ship of state drifted along in the channel for another two decades-plus on momentum, entrenched interests clutching pearls......business interests demanding to hang on to business models, politicians not being willing to upset donors, cultural addiction to open society ideology, etc.... Trump was the first POTUS to actually grab the ship's wheel and force the battleship starting to make the slow turn toward another course. Biden has largely continued the same policy and it will STILL take years for the new supply chains to completely coalesce.

One can quibble with the length of the list of outstanding details without minimizing the foresight and courage to force the make the course correction NOW rather than do what all of his predecessors had done....nothing, while hoping for serendipity to do the dirty work for them.

---

The man who screwed the Service Employees Union in his Trump Casino bankruptcies as the champion of labor has to be one of the more ironic turnabouts in politics.

---

And if it is? That's politics.

---

Sure, but it was the same year. Usually it takes a bit to marinate and "clarify" one's position.

---

He's been talking about jobs, trade, and globalization for a long time. I don't know how successful his efforts will be in the long run, but I do give him credit for mainstreaming the issue.

---

Everyone talks about jobs, trade, and globalization. He didn't mainstream anything. But no one has the gall to talk about them from a realistic perspective, including Trump. Pandering is pandering regardless of your emotive method of choice.

---

Not everyone talks about it in terms of "America first." That perspective had no real place in the debate before.

---

Wait, are you actually saying sloganism hasn't been part of this ancient political issue?

Osodecentx said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Aliceinbubbleland said:

---

Are you saying you'd support Trump over Pence?

---

Trump, for all his flaws, basically did a good job when he was in the Oval Office.

---

I have always maintained Trump is far superior to whomever the Dems throw out. But let's not pretend Trump's presidency wasn't a VERY mixed bag, especially his last two years in office. There was some good. Some bad. And some REALLY bad.

He spent like a drunken sailor, failed miserably on his border wall, and his COVID policy and vaccine rollout? Oy vey.

---

You might want to go back and check what he actually did. Spending starts with Congress, for example, and the 'last two years' the Democrats controlled Congress and used every tool available to harass him .

I don't like his style of argument sometimes, and yes he made mistakes (but fewer than either Bush and let's not even pretend his mistakes add up to any of the damage done by Clinton or Obama), and yes I don't want him to be the GOP nominee.

But trashing Trump's foreign policy, his trade negotiations, or his common sense attitude in rolling back Obama's policies, that goes after things we should be supporting and should be protecting against the Left.

God help us if we get Jeb Bush or Marco Rubio or someone like Mitch McConnell to lead our nation.

---

His trade deals have failed miserably...

---

too harsh. His term marked a historic inflection point on China. Changed the dynamic, forced the system to realize that the model was coming to an end (like with it or not), which gave us a bit of a head start when Covid delivered the coup de grace.

The rationale for Globalism ended in 1992. The ship of state drifted along in the channel for another two decades-plus on momentum, entrenched interests clutching pearls......business interests demanding to hang on to business models, politicians not being willing to upset donors, cultural addiction to open society ideology, etc.... Trump was the first POTUS to actually grab the ship's wheel and force the battleship starting to make the slow turn toward another course. Biden has largely continued the same policy and it will STILL take years for the new supply chains to completely coalesce.

One can quibble with the length of the list of outstanding details without minimizing the foresight and courage to force the make the course correction NOW rather than do what all of his predecessors had done....nothing, while hoping for serendipity to do the dirty work for them.

---

The man who screwed the Service Employees Union in his Trump Casino bankruptcies as the champion of labor has to be one of the more ironic turnabouts in politics.

---

And if it is? That's politics.

---

Sure, but it was the same year. Usually it takes a bit to marinate and "clarify" one's position.

---

He's been talking about jobs, trade, and globalization for a long time. I don't know how successful his efforts will be in the long run, but I do give him credit for mainstreaming the issue.

---

Everyone talks about jobs, trade, and globalization. He didn't mainstream anything. But no one has the gall to talk about them from a realistic perspective, including Trump. Pandering is pandering regardless of your emotive method of choice.

---

Not everyone talks about it in terms of "America first." That perspective had no real place in the debate before.

---

Neither did indictments or insurrections

---

True. We need new ideas, but we also need competent, patriotic candidates to advocate them.

ATL Bear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Aliceinbubbleland said:

---

Are you saying you'd support Trump over Pence?

---

Trump, for all his flaws, basically did a good job when he was in the Oval Office.

---

I have always maintained Trump is far superior to whomever the Dems throw out. But let's not pretend Trump's presidency wasn't a VERY mixed bag, especially his last two years in office. There was some good. Some bad. And some REALLY bad.

He spent like a drunken sailor, failed miserably on his border wall, and his COVID policy and vaccine rollout? Oy vey.

---

You might want to go back and check what he actually did. Spending starts with Congress, for example, and the 'last two years' the Democrats controlled Congress and used every tool available to harass him .

I don't like his style of argument sometimes, and yes he made mistakes (but fewer than either Bush and let's not even pretend his mistakes add up to any of the damage done by Clinton or Obama), and yes I don't want him to be the GOP nominee.

But trashing Trump's foreign policy, his trade negotiations, or his common sense attitude in rolling back Obama's policies, that goes after things we should be supporting and should be protecting against the Left.

God help us if we get Jeb Bush or Marco Rubio or someone like Mitch McConnell to lead our nation.

---

His trade deals have failed miserably...

---

too harsh. His term marked a historic inflection point on China. Changed the dynamic, forced the system to realize that the model was coming to an end (like with it or not), which gave us a bit of a head start when Covid delivered the coup de grace.

The rationale for Globalism ended in 1992. The ship of state drifted along in the channel for another two decades-plus on momentum, entrenched interests clutching pearls......business interests demanding to hang on to business models, politicians not being willing to upset donors, cultural addiction to open society ideology, etc.... Trump was the first POTUS to actually grab the ship's wheel and force the battleship starting to make the slow turn toward another course. Biden has largely continued the same policy and it will STILL take years for the new supply chains to completely coalesce.

One can quibble with the length of the list of outstanding details without minimizing the foresight and courage to force the make the course correction NOW rather than do what all of his predecessors had done....nothing, while hoping for serendipity to do the dirty work for them.

---

The man who screwed the Service Employees Union in his Trump Casino bankruptcies as the champion of labor has to be one of the more ironic turnabouts in politics.

---

And if it is? That's politics.

---

Sure, but it was the same year. Usually it takes a bit to marinate and "clarify" one's position.

---

He's been talking about jobs, trade, and globalization for a long time. I don't know how successful his efforts will be in the long run, but I do give him credit for mainstreaming the issue.

---

Everyone talks about jobs, trade, and globalization. He didn't mainstream anything. But no one has the gall to talk about them from a realistic perspective, including Trump. Pandering is pandering regardless of your emotive method of choice.

---

Not everyone talks about it in terms of "America first." That perspective had no real place in the debate before.

---

Wait, are you actually saying sloganism hasn't been part of this ancient political issue?

---

The terminology is irrelevant. Until a few years ago it was always called "isolationism."

Sam Lowry said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Aliceinbubbleland said:

---

Are you saying you'd support Trump over Pence?

---

Trump, for all his flaws, basically did a good job when he was in the Oval Office.

---

I have always maintained Trump is far superior to whomever the Dems throw out. But let's not pretend Trump's presidency wasn't a VERY mixed bag, especially his last two years in office. There was some good. Some bad. And some REALLY bad.

He spent like a drunken sailor, failed miserably on his border wall, and his COVID policy and vaccine rollout? Oy vey.

---

You might want to go back and check what he actually did. Spending starts with Congress, for example, and the 'last two years' the Democrats controlled Congress and used every tool available to harass him .

I don't like his style of argument sometimes, and yes he made mistakes (but fewer than either Bush and let's not even pretend his mistakes add up to any of the damage done by Clinton or Obama), and yes I don't want him to be the GOP nominee.

But trashing Trump's foreign policy, his trade negotiations, or his common sense attitude in rolling back Obama's policies, that goes after things we should be supporting and should be protecting against the Left.

God help us if we get Jeb Bush or Marco Rubio or someone like Mitch McConnell to lead our nation.

---

His trade deals have failed miserably...

---

too harsh. His term marked a historic inflection point on China. Changed the dynamic, forced the system to realize that the model was coming to an end (like with it or not), which gave us a bit of a head start when Covid delivered the coup de grace.

The rationale for Globalism ended in 1992. The ship of state drifted along in the channel for another two decades-plus on momentum, entrenched interests clutching pearls......business interests demanding to hang on to business models, politicians not being willing to upset donors, cultural addiction to open society ideology, etc.... Trump was the first POTUS to actually grab the ship's wheel and force the battleship starting to make the slow turn toward another course. Biden has largely continued the same policy and it will STILL take years for the new supply chains to completely coalesce.

One can quibble with the length of the list of outstanding details without minimizing the foresight and courage to force the make the course correction NOW rather than do what all of his predecessors had done....nothing, while hoping for serendipity to do the dirty work for them.

---

The man who screwed the Service Employees Union in his Trump Casino bankruptcies as the champion of labor has to be one of the more ironic turnabouts in politics.

---

And if it is? That's politics.

---

Sure, but it was the same year. Usually it takes a bit to marinate and "clarify" one's position.

---

He's been talking about jobs, trade, and globalization for a long time. I don't know how successful his efforts will be in the long run, but I do give him credit for mainstreaming the issue.

---

Everyone talks about jobs, trade, and globalization. He didn't mainstream anything. But no one has the gall to talk about them from a realistic perspective, including Trump. Pandering is pandering regardless of your emotive method of choice.

---

Not everyone talks about it in terms of "America first." That perspective had no real place in the debate before.

---

Wait, are you actually saying sloganism hasn't been part of this ancient political issue?

---

The terminology is irrelevant. Until a few years ago it was always called "isolationism."

---

isolationism isnt the same thing as America first.. it is also an outdated Philosophy that would make America a lesser power in the world

America first is not America only.

4th and Inches said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Aliceinbubbleland said:

---

Are you saying you'd support Trump over Pence?

---

Trump, for all his flaws, basically did a good job when he was in the Oval Office.

---

I have always maintained Trump is far superior to whomever the Dems throw out. But let's not pretend Trump's presidency wasn't a VERY mixed bag, especially his last two years in office. There was some good. Some bad. And some REALLY bad.

He spent like a drunken sailor, failed miserably on his border wall, and his COVID policy and vaccine rollout? Oy vey.

---

You might want to go back and check what he actually did. Spending starts with Congress, for example, and the 'last two years' the Democrats controlled Congress and used every tool available to harass him .

I don't like his style of argument sometimes, and yes he made mistakes (but fewer than either Bush and let's not even pretend his mistakes add up to any of the damage done by Clinton or Obama), and yes I don't want him to be the GOP nominee.

But trashing Trump's foreign policy, his trade negotiations, or his common sense attitude in rolling back Obama's policies, that goes after things we should be supporting and should be protecting against the Left.

God help us if we get Jeb Bush or Marco Rubio or someone like Mitch McConnell to lead our nation.

---

His trade deals have failed miserably...

---

too harsh. His term marked a historic inflection point on China. Changed the dynamic, forced the system to realize that the model was coming to an end (like with it or not), which gave us a bit of a head start when Covid delivered the coup de grace.

The rationale for Globalism ended in 1992. The ship of state drifted along in the channel for another two decades-plus on momentum, entrenched interests clutching pearls......business interests demanding to hang on to business models, politicians not being willing to upset donors, cultural addiction to open society ideology, etc.... Trump was the first POTUS to actually grab the ship's wheel and force the battleship starting to make the slow turn toward another course. Biden has largely continued the same policy and it will STILL take years for the new supply chains to completely coalesce.

One can quibble with the length of the list of outstanding details without minimizing the foresight and courage to force the make the course correction NOW rather than do what all of his predecessors had done....nothing, while hoping for serendipity to do the dirty work for them.

---

The man who screwed the Service Employees Union in his Trump Casino bankruptcies as the champion of labor has to be one of the more ironic turnabouts in politics.

---

And if it is? That's politics.

---

Sure, but it was the same year. Usually it takes a bit to marinate and "clarify" one's position.

---

He's been talking about jobs, trade, and globalization for a long time. I don't know how successful his efforts will be in the long run, but I do give him credit for mainstreaming the issue.

---

Everyone talks about jobs, trade, and globalization. He didn't mainstream anything. But no one has the gall to talk about them from a realistic perspective, including Trump. Pandering is pandering regardless of your emotive method of choice.

---

Not everyone talks about it in terms of "America first." That perspective had no real place in the debate before.

---

Wait, are you actually saying sloganism hasn't been part of this ancient political issue?

---

The terminology is irrelevant. Until a few years ago it was always called "isolationism."

---

isolationism isnt the same thing as America first.. it is also an outdated Philosophy that would make America a lesser power in the world

America first is not America only.

---

I agree.

Meanwhile, back on the farm….

IOWA 2024: Ron DeSantis's campaign is releasing a new internal poll by @NvrBackDown24

Mid-May
Trump — 48% (+24)
DeSantis — 24%

May 30-June 1
Trump — 39% (+10)
DeSantis — 29%

✅ Net 14-point shift towards DeSantishttps://t.co/kOmkLTPjgs pic.twitter.com/JO11THxUmb

— InteractivePolls (@IAPolls2022) June 6, 2023