It's possible to both not like Trump and to not want to live in a Stalinist banana republic.

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

It's possible to both not like Trump and to not want to live in a Stalinist banana republic.

---

I agree with you. I defended Trump and his criminal role for 6th issues, I do not believe he had direct culpability for that mess. I also thought the Jan 6th Coalition was ridiculous.

Here, we have a Special Counsel that got a Grand Jury indictment. This is a different animal than the other stuff.

Let me be clear, I don't like Trump, believe he is central to the rise of Biden and the destruction of America. Wish he would go back to reality TV. One dose from 2016-18 is enough Trump for me. The fact he won, represents all things wrong with our elections. Money andefia too much influence.

FLBear5630 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Denial is very common, especially among the Left.

It's also telling how many Red Queens we have here. Verdict well ahead of the trial.

---

Huh? You are the one saying there is a double standard, this is weaponizing DOJ, etc... Every excuse under the sun except that he did it or provided enough evidence for a Grand Jury to warrant a ln indictment.

Hell, you got a bad case of the "Trumps", might want to get a penicillin shot for that.... Maybe if you send him a $20 he'll give you an autographed picture.

---

Biden and Pence also had classified documents.

No raids, no charges.

Just ignore that, will you?

---

They gave them back. That is all Trump had to do. Yet the blowhard made it into an indictment! Cooperate, like everyone else does.

Biden has a Special Counsel investigating him. Not good enough???

---

More denial.

Obama's IRS targeted conservatives. That is a fact.

Clinton broke several major laws. That was the statement made by Comey, and it stands as fact.

Pretty much every President kept documents for years, but it only became an issue this year.

There was zero need for an armed raid on Trump's residence.

And about Biden. Unlike Trump, he took home classified documents while he was a Senator, with no authorization to remove them from the SCIF. That is also fact.

The double standard is obvious to everyone but those who find it useful.

---

They asked him for the documents back, simple as that. All he had to do was cooperate, but as usual he can't do that.
All Trump had to do was give back what was asked. Nothing else.

Trump, once again, made his own mess. He knows they are looking to get him, yet he just keeps giving them the means to do **** like this. He is poison, keep defending him.

By the way, you keep bringing up Clinton, Trump's DOJ was the one that didn't prosecute her?? Then you use that as proof of a double standard?? Trump should have prosecuted, it is on him it didn't happen.

Biden is being investigated. There is no double standard, there is nothing that Trump didn't create himself.

---

The reason we've seen so many fmr POTUS/VPOTUS with classified docs in their official records is that Presidential Records Act has language which defines all retained materials as their own records. That law is in conflict, of course, with the Espionage Act. Rather than recognizing the conflict as a reason NOT to move, Biden Admin has decided to assume one law has primacy over the others.

All of this will be litigated up to SCOTUS, and will not be complete until after the next election is done. So the American people are going to get a chance to vote on whether or not they think the standards of justice are equal. And polling shows everyone knows they are not, so Dems may have miscalculated on the effects of all this.

FLBear5630 said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

It's possible to both not like Trump and to not want to live in a Stalinist banana republic.

---

I agree with you. I defended Trump and his criminal role for 6th issues, I do not believe he had direct culpability for that mess. I also thought the Jan 6th Coalition was ridiculous.

Here, we have a Special Counsel that got a Grand Jury indictment. This is a different animal than the other stuff.

Let me be clear, I don't like Trump, believe he is central to the rise of Biden and the destruction of America. Wish he would go back to reality TV. One dose from 2016-18 is enough Trump for me. The fact he won, represents all things wrong with our elections. Money andefia too much influence.

---

one ******* is not the problem.

the reaction of institutions to that ******* is the problem.

once we tolerate that, then politics devolves to nothing more than an argument about the definition of *******s.

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Denial is very common, especially among the Left.

It's also telling how many Red Queens we have here. Verdict well ahead of the trial.

---

Huh? You are the one saying there is a double standard, this is weaponizing DOJ, etc... Every excuse under the sun except that he did it or provided enough evidence for a Grand Jury to warrant a ln indictment.

Hell, you got a bad case of the "Trumps", might want to get a penicillin shot for that.... Maybe if you send him a $20 he'll give you an autographed picture.

---

Biden and Pence also had classified documents.

No raids, no charges.

Just ignore that, will you?

---

They gave them back. That is all Trump had to do. Yet the blowhard made it into an indictment! Cooperate, like everyone else does.

Biden has a Special Counsel investigating him. Not good enough???

---

More denial.

Obama's IRS targeted conservatives. That is a fact.

Clinton broke several major laws. That was the statement made by Comey, and it stands as fact.

Pretty much every President kept documents for years, but it only became an issue this year.

There was zero need for an armed raid on Trump's residence.

And about Biden. Unlike Trump, he took home classified documents while he was a Senator, with no authorization to remove them from the SCIF. That is also fact.

The double standard is obvious to everyone but those who find it useful.

---

They asked him for the documents back, simple as that. All he had to do was cooperate, but as usual he can't do that.
All Trump had to do was give back what was asked. Nothing else.

Trump, once again, made his own mess. He knows they are looking to get him, yet he just keeps giving them the means to do **** like this. He is poison, keep defending him.

By the way, you keep bringing up Clinton, Trump's DOJ was the one that didn't prosecute her?? Then you use that as proof of a double standard?? Trump should have prosecuted, it is on him it didn't happen.

Biden is being investigated. There is no double standard, there is nothing that Trump didn't create himself.

---

The reason we've seen so many fmr POTUS/VPOTUS with classified docs in their official records is that Presidential Records Act has language which defines all retained materials as their own records. That law is in conflict, of course, with the Espionage Act. Rather than recognizing the conflict as a reason NOT to move, Biden Admin has decided to assume one law has primacy over the others.

All of this will be litigated up to SCOTUS, and will not be complete until after the next election is done. So the American people are going to get a chance to vote on whether or not they think the standards of justice are equal. And polling shows everyone knows they are not, so Dems may have miscalculated on the effects of all this.

---

All Trump had to do was cooperate. He makes a good faith effort, you have no case. This is self-inflicted, as usual with Trump.

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Denial is very common, especially among the Left.

It's also telling how many Red Queens we have here. Verdict well ahead of the trial.

---

Huh? You are the one saying there is a double standard, this is weaponizing DOJ, etc... Every excuse under the sun except that he did it or provided enough evidence for a Grand Jury to warrant a ln indictment.

Hell, you got a bad case of the "Trumps", might want to get a penicillin shot for that.... Maybe if you send him a $20 he'll give you an autographed picture.

---

Biden and Pence also had classified documents.

No raids, no charges.

Just ignore that, will you?

---

They gave them back. That is all Trump had to do. Yet the blowhard made it into an indictment! Cooperate, like everyone else does.

Biden has a Special Counsel investigating him. Not good enough???

---

More denial.

Obama's IRS targeted conservatives. That is a fact.

Clinton broke several major laws. That was the statement made by Comey, and it stands as fact.

Pretty much every President kept documents for years, but it only became an issue this year.

There was zero need for an armed raid on Trump's residence.

And about Biden. Unlike Trump, he took home classified documents while he was a Senator, with no authorization to remove them from the SCIF. That is also fact.

The double standard is obvious to everyone but those who find it useful.

---

They asked him for the documents back, simple as that. All he had to do was cooperate, but as usual he can't do that.
All Trump had to do was give back what was asked. Nothing else.

Trump, once again, made his own mess. He knows they are looking to get him, yet he just keeps giving them the means to do **** like this. He is poison, keep defending him.

By the way, you keep bringing up Clinton, Trump's DOJ was the one that didn't prosecute her?? Then you use that as proof of a double standard?? Trump should have prosecuted, it is on him it didn't happen.

Biden is being investigated. There is no double standard, there is nothing that Trump didn't create himself.

---

The reason we've seen so many fmr POTUS/VPOTUS with classified docs in their official records is that Presidential Records Act has language which defines all retained materials as their own records. That law is in conflict, of course, with the Espionage Act. Rather than recognizing the conflict as a reason NOT to move, Biden Admin has decided to assume one law has primacy over the others.

All of this will be litigated up to SCOTUS, and will not be complete until after the next election is done. So the American people are going to get a chance to vote on whether or not they think the standards of justice are equal. And polling shows everyone knows they are not, so Dems may have miscalculated on the effects of all this.

---

All Trump had to do was cooperate. He makes a good faith effort, you have no case. This is self-inflicted, as usual with Trump.

---

unless of course he believes the law did not require him to cooperate.

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

It's possible to both not like Trump and to not want to live in a Stalinist banana republic.

---

I agree with you. I defended Trump and his criminal role for 6th issues, I do not believe he had direct culpability for that mess. I also thought the Jan 6th Coalition was ridiculous.

Here, we have a Special Counsel that got a Grand Jury indictment. This is a different animal than the other stuff.

Let me be clear, I don't like Trump, believe he is central to the rise of Biden and the destruction of America. Wish he would go back to reality TV. One dose from 2016-18 is enough Trump for me. The fact he won, represents all things wrong with our elections. Money andefia too much influence.

---

one ******* is not the problem.

the reaction of institutions to that ******* is the problem.

once we tolerate that, then politics devolves to nothing more than an argument about the definition of *******s.

---

The last real President was Bush 41. After that, it became this crap of demonizing the other side and one-up-man-ship. It started with Clinton and has continued, it is reaching a critical mass with Trump. We can't go on like this and HAVE to get back to running serious candidates or China will dominate us. Haley, DeSantis, Pompeo, Scott, and even Christie have serious experience governing. We need to get away from clowns like Trump.

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

It's possible to both not like Trump and to not want to live in a Stalinist banana republic.

---

I agree with you. I defended Trump and his criminal role for 6th issues, I do not believe he had direct culpability for that mess. I also thought the Jan 6th Coalition was ridiculous.

Here, we have a Special Counsel that got a Grand Jury indictment. This is a different animal than the other stuff.

Let me be clear, I don't like Trump, believe he is central to the rise of Biden and the destruction of America. Wish he would go back to reality TV. One dose from 2016-18 is enough Trump for me. The fact he won, represents all things wrong with our elections. Money andefia too much influence.

---

one ******* is not the problem.

the reaction of institutions to that ******* is the problem.

once we tolerate that, then politics devolves to nothing more than an argument about the definition of *******s.

---

The last real President was Bush 41. After that, it became this crap of demonizing the other side and one-up-man-ship. It started with Clinton and has continued, it is reaching a critical mass with Trump. We can't go on like this and HAVE to get back to running serious candidates or China will dominate us. Haley, DeSantis, Pompeo, Scott, and even Christie have serious experience governing. We need to get away from clowns like Trump.

---

I agree it started with Clinton, but in other respects you are badly mis-assessing the situation.

We were in "normal politics" under Bush 41, politics where we broadly agreed on the purpose of government, the problems we faced, and primarily disagreed about the best ways to use government (or not) to solve the problems. To some degree, the Cold War forced that upon us. The divide did start with Clinton, who did indeed do things that had always been considered unacceptable - sex with interns in his office, multiple counts of obstruction & conspiracy. Then disbarred. Republicans were hardly unreasonable for impeaching him. But choosing the political route for defense, to ride it out, Democrats set in motion the post-modernist dynamic, betraying their true philosophical colors. Merit hierarchies be damned. It's all about power.

The problem has gotten worse with each successive admin. Dems made Bush 43 pay dearly. Then Obama engaged in purposefully divisive racial policies, and consolidated Democrat hold on governmental institutions by using Stimlus monies to build public sector unions as blue grassroots. Trump was a reaction to all that, and of course the reaction on him was Democrats dropping all pretenses about common good, embracing "regime politics" with gusto. Today, the two sides do not agree on the definitions of basic things, even what are boys and what are girls. And the left controls at least parts of most societal institutions, to include the federal bureaucracy, which is clearly being used to coerce compliance from the center and right portions of the spectrum. So we wildly disagree on the problems AND how to use government (or not) to solve them. We believe spending and the border and....so many things are literally "state sponsored chaos." Meanwhile, Dems are moving in to overdrive defining everything before it to be extirpated as either white supremacy or an existential threat to the climate.

All of that to say is, the "serious experience" argument, no matter how practical it might be, t is going to get drowned out by as an irrelevancy given the situation - we are in a defacto civil war. Conservatives are looking for someone to fight, no matter what, because they correctly perceive the consequences of NOT defending Trump - it will only ratify that Dems have the right to use their power to intimidate their political opponents.

This dynamic until one side gives up and the other one wins.

Wish it wasn't that way, but it is what it is. And I am frankly concerned that so many on the center right work so hard NOT to see it. Dems do not have that limitation. They are all in that they are surrounded by fascists and anything goes to destroy them.

outstanding article here, five years old now, current events proving it more prescient with each passing year.
https://imprimis.hillsdale.edu/americas-cold-civil-war/

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

It's possible to both not like Trump and to not want to live in a Stalinist banana republic.

---

I agree with you. I defended Trump and his criminal role for 6th issues, I do not believe he had direct culpability for that mess. I also thought the Jan 6th Coalition was ridiculous.

Here, we have a Special Counsel that got a Grand Jury indictment. This is a different animal than the other stuff.

Let me be clear, I don't like Trump, believe he is central to the rise of Biden and the destruction of America. Wish he would go back to reality TV. One dose from 2016-18 is enough Trump for me. The fact he won, represents all things wrong with our elections. Money andefia too much influence.

---

one ******* is not the problem.

the reaction of institutions to that ******* is the problem.

once we tolerate that, then politics devolves to nothing more than an argument about the definition of *******s.

---

The last real President was Bush 41. After that, it became this crap of demonizing the other side and one-up-man-ship. It started with Clinton and has continued, it is reaching a critical mass with Trump. We can't go on like this and HAVE to get back to running serious candidates or China will dominate us. Haley, DeSantis, Pompeo, Scott, and even Christie have serious experience governing. We need to get away from clowns like Trump.

---

I agree it started with Clinton, but in other respects you are badly mis-assessing the situation.

We were in "normal politics" under Bush 41, politics where we broadly agreed on the purpose of government, the problems we faced, and primarily disagreed about the best ways to use government (or not) to solve the problems. To some degree, the Cold War forced that upon us. The divide did start with Clinton, who did indeed do things that had always been considered unacceptable - sex with interns in his office, multiple counts of obstruction & conspiracy. Then disbarred. Republicans were hardly unreasonable for impeaching him. But choosing the political route for defense, to ride it out, Democrats set in motion the post-modernist dynamic, betraying their true philosophical colors. Merit hierarchies be damned. It's all about power.

The problem has gotten worse with each successive admin. Dems made Bush 43 pay dearly. Then Obama engaged in purposefully divisive racial policies, and consolidated Democrat hold on governmental institutions by using Stimlus monies to build public sector unions as blue grassroots. Trump was a reaction to all that, and of course the reaction on him was Democrats dropping all pretenses about common good, embracing "regime politics" with gusto. Today, the two sides do not agree on the definitions of basic things, even what are boys and what are girls. And the left controls at least parts of most societal institutions, to include the federal bureaucracy, which is clearly being used to coerce compliance from the center and right portions of the spectrum. So we wildly disagree on the problems AND how to use government (or not) to solve them. We believe spending and the border and....so many things are literally "state sponsored chaos." Meanwhile, Dems are moving in to overdrive defining everything before it to be extirpated as either white supremacy or an existential threat to the climate.

All of that to say is, the "serious experience" argument, no matter how practical it might be, t is going to get drowned out by as an irrelevancy given the situation - we are in a defacto civil war. Conservatives are looking for someone to fight, no matter what, because they correctly perceive the consequences of NOT defending Trump - it will only ratify that Dems have the right to use their power to intimidate their political opponents.

This dynamic until one side gives up and the other one wins.

Wish it wasn't that way, but it is what it is. And I am frankly concerned that so many on the center right work so hard NOT to see it. Dems do not have that limitation. They are all in that they are surrounded by fascists and anything goes to destroy them.

outstanding article here, five years old now, current events proving it more prescient with each passing year.
https://imprimis.hillsdale.edu/americas-cold-civil-war/

---

I do agree with the fight, but I disagree with your choice of Champion. He does more damage, much of it self-inflicted, than forward the cause. Goldwater, Reagan, Bush, and even the Dems at least had real experience. Dislike him, but Clinton had real administrative skills. Obama had real oratory political skills. Bush 45 had real governing skills. We are not seeing that with Trump. He is a reality TV guy and media personality and acting like it. He is damaging the situation more than helping because he cannot win a General Election. He hasn't had a positive impact since 2016!

"All Trump had to do was cooperate"

I keep seeing this, even though

A) Communications between Trump's team and the Archive team were always through middlemen. There is no evidence I have seen that Trump 'did not cooperate' with valid authority

B) Presidents have commonly kept documents for years, even decades. There was no pressing need for the Archives to have these specific documents back when they wanted them, and since the location had Secret Service protection, no real reason to believe the documents were in danger of destruction or discovery by bad actors (as opposed to Hillary's server, which is known to have been hacked and the deliberate destruction of thousands of emails in defiance of a Congressional subpoena.)

C) There is evidence that Trump's representatives had returned a number of documents as requested, and believed that everything requested had been returned that they could find.


Keep in mind as well, that a great portion of the charges against Trump are based not on the documents concerned, but in conversations reported to the investigators, often by people known to be hostile to the former President. This matters because there were no such conversations with anyone regarding the documents found at the Biden or Pence residences, invalidating the claim that Trump only was charged because he acted differently than Biden or Pence. It may well be that if inquiries had been made in those cases comparable to the actions taken against Trump, that similar testimony would have been produced.

Also, none of this explains the motive for sending a flood of armed agents to raid Trump's residence. There was no exigent threat or valid cause. Also, there were a number of leaks from the grand jury regarding Trump's case, which is a felony, yet there has been no effort to find or punish the person(s) responsible for those leaks.

But sure, keep telling yourself this is a clean and legitimate legal action.

Have you read the indictment?

I understand they are just allegations, and I have qualified every post with "if true."

But, based on the allegations, everything you said is flat wrong.

If true:

- The gov worked with Trump for over a year to try and secure the classified info.
- Trump directly participated in concealing/hiding/moving subpoenad documents.
- Trump knowingly allowed his attorneys to falsely certify compliance.
- Trump himself directed his valet to move boxes with subpoenad, highly sensitive info, so that his own attorneys could not review them.
- Trump suggested to his own attorneys that they destroy and/or otherwise not produce subpoenad information.
- Trump was directly involved in the process.
- The documents were among the most sensitive imaginable - nuclear and strategic defense-related. Yet, he was keeping them in Mar-A-Lago storage and bathrooms and later his NJ country club.
- The FBI executed the warrant only after months of Trump BS, and after it had evidence Trump was concealing subpoenad info and lying about it. That's exactly what the FBI should have done.

sombear: "Have you read the indictment?"

Yes.

Don't you find it important to note how quickly the indictment was unsealed by the prosecutor, and don't you see how hard the prosecutor is pushing the effort to find Trump guilty in the media well ahead of the actual trial?

That is not the behavior of a confident prosecutor. And yes, the whole point is whether the charges are true.

There are myriad legal issues in play here, ranging from who has primacy in control of Presidential Records, including classified documents, the conflict between the provisions of the Presidential Records Act and the Espionage Act (no one should seriously expect Espionage charges against Trump to continue, those are going to get whacked early on, the prosecution is just hoping to negotiate and get something for removing them), and other elements of the chain of possession.

It's going to be difficult to prove Trump had knowledge of the location of all the documents concerned, or even that he directed his staff to interfere with the return of those documents.

A lot of people are building opinions on assumptions and nothing more than what they want to think of Trump. As others have observed, it's very possible for Trump to be an ass but not guilty of the charges.

Oldbear83 said:

---

sombear: "Have you read the indictment?"

Yes.

Don't you find it important to note how quickly the indictment was unsealed by the prosecutor, and don't you see how hard the prosecutor is pushing the effort to find Trump guilty in the media well ahead of the actual trial?

That is not the behavior of a confident prosecutor. And yes, the whole point is whether the charges are true.

There are myriad legal issues in play here, ranging from who has primacy in control of Presidential Records, including classified documents, the conflict between the provisions of the Presidential Records Act and the Espionage Act (no one should seriously expect Espionage charges against Trump to continue, those are going to get whacked early on, the prosecution is just hoping to negotiate and get something for removing them), and other elements of the chain of possession.

It's going to be difficult to prove Trump had knowledge of the location of all the documents concerned, or even that he directed his staff to interfere with the return of those documents.

A lot of people are building opinions on assumptions and nothing more than what they want to think of Trump. As others have observed, it's very possible for Trump to be an ass but not guilty of the charges.

---

All fair points, and, again, I have not defended any prior gov legal actions against Trump, nor have I claimed even in this case that the gov's motives have been pure. I've focused on the allegations themselves.

I do disagree with you on releasing the indictment. It was going to become public this week anyways. Smith knew there would be major backlash (obviously) and knew the best thing to do was provide detail in the indictment and release it early. I would have done the exact same thing, and I don't find that suspicious at all.

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Denial is very common, especially among the Left.

It's also telling how many Red Queens we have here. Verdict well ahead of the trial.

---

Huh? You are the one saying there is a double standard, this is weaponizing DOJ, etc... Every excuse under the sun except that he did it or provided enough evidence for a Grand Jury to warrant a ln indictment.

Hell, you got a bad case of the "Trumps", might want to get a penicillin shot for that.... Maybe if you send him a $20 he'll give you an autographed picture.

---

Biden and Pence also had classified documents.

No raids, no charges.

Just ignore that, will you?

---

They gave them back. That is all Trump had to do. Yet the blowhard made it into an indictment! Cooperate, like everyone else does.

Biden has a Special Counsel investigating him. Not good enough???

---

More denial.

Obama's IRS targeted conservatives. That is a fact.

Clinton broke several major laws. That was the statement made by Comey, and it stands as fact.

Pretty much every President kept documents for years, but it only became an issue this year.

There was zero need for an armed raid on Trump's residence.

And about Biden. Unlike Trump, he took home classified documents while he was a Senator, with no authorization to remove them from the SCIF. That is also fact.

The double standard is obvious to everyone but those who find it useful.

---

They asked him for the documents back, simple as that. All he had to do was cooperate, but as usual he can't do that.
All Trump had to do was give back what was asked. Nothing else.

Trump, once again, made his own mess. He knows they are looking to get him, yet he just keeps giving them the means to do **** like this. He is poison, keep defending him.

By the way, you keep bringing up Clinton, Trump's DOJ was the one that didn't prosecute her?? Then you use that as proof of a double standard?? Trump should have prosecuted, it is on him it didn't happen.

Biden is being investigated. There is no double standard, there is nothing that Trump didn't create himself.

---

The reason we've seen so many fmr POTUS/VPOTUS with classified docs in their official records is that Presidential Records Act has language which defines all retained materials as their own records. That law is in conflict, of course, with the Espionage Act. Rather than recognizing the conflict as a reason NOT to move, Biden Admin has decided to assume one law has primacy over the others.

All of this will be litigated up to SCOTUS, and will not be complete until after the next election is done. So the American people are going to get a chance to vote on whether or not they think the standards of justice are equal. And polling shows everyone knows they are not, so Dems may have miscalculated on the effects of all this.

---

All Trump had to do was cooperate. He makes a good faith effort, you have no case. This is self-inflicted, as usual with Trump.

---

unless of course he believes the law did not require him to cooperate.

---

Trump's belief about what the law required of him is not the test.

From Bill Barr: He was totally wrong that he had the right to have those documents. Those documents are among the most sensitive secrets that the country has.They have to be in the custody of the archivist. He had no right to maintain them and retain them."

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Denial is very common, especially among the Left.

It's also telling how many Red Queens we have here. Verdict well ahead of the trial.

---

Huh? You are the one saying there is a double standard, this is weaponizing DOJ, etc... Every excuse under the sun except that he did it or provided enough evidence for a Grand Jury to warrant a ln indictment.

Hell, you got a bad case of the "Trumps", might want to get a penicillin shot for that.... Maybe if you send him a $20 he'll give you an autographed picture.

---

Biden and Pence also had classified documents.

No raids, no charges.

Just ignore that, will you?

---

They gave them back. That is all Trump had to do. Yet the blowhard made it into an indictment! Cooperate, like everyone else does.

Biden has a Special Counsel investigating him. Not good enough???

---

More denial.

Obama's IRS targeted conservatives. That is a fact.

Clinton broke several major laws. That was the statement made by Comey, and it stands as fact.

Pretty much every President kept documents for years, but it only became an issue this year.

There was zero need for an armed raid on Trump's residence.

And about Biden. Unlike Trump, he took home classified documents while he was a Senator, with no authorization to remove them from the SCIF. That is also fact.

The double standard is obvious to everyone but those who find it useful.

---

They asked him for the documents back, simple as that. All he had to do was cooperate, but as usual he can't do that.
All Trump had to do was give back what was asked. Nothing else.

Trump, once again, made his own mess. He knows they are looking to get him, yet he just keeps giving them the means to do **** like this. He is poison, keep defending him.

By the way, you keep bringing up Clinton, Trump's DOJ was the one that didn't prosecute her?? Then you use that as proof of a double standard?? Trump should have prosecuted, it is on him it didn't happen.

Biden is being investigated. There is no double standard, there is nothing that Trump didn't create himself.

---

The reason we've seen so many fmr POTUS/VPOTUS with classified docs in their official records is that Presidential Records Act has language which defines all retained materials as their own records. That law is in conflict, of course, with the Espionage Act. Rather than recognizing the conflict as a reason NOT to move, Biden Admin has decided to assume one law has primacy over the others.

All of this will be litigated up to SCOTUS, and will not be complete until after the next election is done. So the American people are going to get a chance to vote on whether or not they think the standards of justice are equal. And polling shows everyone knows they are not, so Dems may have miscalculated on the effects of all this.

---

All Trump had to do was cooperate. He makes a good faith effort, you have no case. This is self-inflicted, as usual with Trump.

---

unless of course he believes the law did not require him to cooperate.

---

"required him to cooperate" - Really? Is that now the standard for former Presidents and even citizens? If not required to cooperate, we won't.

And people wonder why China is becoming more of a threat. I guess "Ask not..." is right out the window, huh?

The even funnier thing is he didn't believe that he had to cooperate, then cries foul when indicted. So, the standard is what you believe? I believe that I should be able to loot stores, have at it. You really are using this as a defense????

BearTruth13 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

BearTruth13 said:

---

Trump continues to out himself as a thundering dumbass and some of you continue to double down. Even Obama is amazed at that level of devotion.

Jesus, have some semblance of self-worth.

-2020 Trump voter

---

The only dumbasses are those that want Trump locked up and are completely fine if nobody else is held accountable.

---

Everyone should be held accountable. If Trump goes down, that's on him. I can't bring myself to care anymore.

If you want to die on a hill for someone that doesn't give two ****s about you, go for it. I can't imagine caring about that guy when DeSantis is an option.

---

Agree with this. I don't feel the least bit sorry for Trump. He made his own bed.

My issue is the double standard.

ATL Bear said:

---

Increasing your support for a politician after finding out they're more criminal than previously known might be one of the most idiotic things I've ever heard.

---

LOL. Indeed.

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

It's possible to both not like Trump and to not want to live in a Stalinist banana republic.

---

I agree with you. I defended Trump and his criminal role for 6th issues, I do not believe he had direct culpability for that mess. I also thought the Jan 6th Coalition was ridiculous.

Here, we have a Special Counsel that got a Grand Jury indictment. This is a different animal than the other stuff.

Let me be clear, I don't like Trump, believe he is central to the rise of Biden and the destruction of America. Wish he would go back to reality TV. One dose from 2016-18 is enough Trump for me. The fact he won, represents all things wrong with our elections. Money andefia too much influence.

---

one ******* is not the problem.

the reaction of institutions to that ******* is the problem.

once we tolerate that, then politics devolves to nothing more than an argument about the definition of *******s.

---

The last real President was Bush 41. After that, it became this crap of demonizing the other side and one-up-man-ship. It started with Clinton and has continued, it is reaching a critical mass with Trump. We can't go on like this and HAVE to get back to running serious candidates or China will dominate us. Haley, DeSantis, Pompeo, Scott, and even Christie have serious experience governing. We need to get away from clowns like Trump.

---

I agree it started with Clinton, but in other respects you are badly mis-assessing the situation.

We were in "normal politics" under Bush 41, politics where we broadly agreed on the purpose of government, the problems we faced, and primarily disagreed about the best ways to use government (or not) to solve the problems. To some degree, the Cold War forced that upon us. The divide did start with Clinton, who did indeed do things that had always been considered unacceptable - sex with interns in his office, multiple counts of obstruction & conspiracy. Then disbarred. Republicans were hardly unreasonable for impeaching him. But choosing the political route for defense, to ride it out, Democrats set in motion the post-modernist dynamic, betraying their true philosophical colors. Merit hierarchies be damned. It's all about power.

The problem has gotten worse with each successive admin. Dems made Bush 43 pay dearly. Then Obama engaged in purposefully divisive racial policies, and consolidated Democrat hold on governmental institutions by using Stimlus monies to build public sector unions as blue grassroots. Trump was a reaction to all that, and of course the reaction on him was Democrats dropping all pretenses about common good, embracing "regime politics" with gusto. Today, the two sides do not agree on the definitions of basic things, even what are boys and what are girls. And the left controls at least parts of most societal institutions, to include the federal bureaucracy, which is clearly being used to coerce compliance from the center and right portions of the spectrum. So we wildly disagree on the problems AND how to use government (or not) to solve them. We believe spending and the border and....so many things are literally "state sponsored chaos." Meanwhile, Dems are moving in to overdrive defining everything before it to be extirpated as either white supremacy or an existential threat to the climate.

All of that to say is, the "serious experience" argument, no matter how practical it might be, t is going to get drowned out by as an irrelevancy given the situation - we are in a defacto civil war. Conservatives are looking for someone to fight, no matter what, because they correctly perceive the consequences of NOT defending Trump - it will only ratify that Dems have the right to use their power to intimidate their political opponents.

This dynamic until one side gives up and the other one wins.

Wish it wasn't that way, but it is what it is. And I am frankly concerned that so many on the center right work so hard NOT to see it. Dems do not have that limitation. They are all in that they are surrounded by fascists and anything goes to destroy them.

outstanding article here, five years old now, current events proving it more prescient with each passing year.
https://imprimis.hillsdale.edu/americas-cold-civil-war/

---

I do agree with the fight, but I disagree with your choice of Champion. He does more damage, much of it self-inflicted, than forward the cause. Goldwater, Reagan, Bush, and even the Dems at least had real experience. Dislike him, but Clinton had real administrative skills. Obama had real oratory political skills. Bush 45 had real governing skills. We are not seeing that with Trump. He is a reality TV guy and media personality and acting like it. He is damaging the situation more than helping because he cannot win a General Election. He hasn't had a positive impact since 2016!

---

It's the champion we have. As long as he has the kind of support he commands, it is simply not possible to make the case that another is clearly stronger.

Not advocating anything. Just reading the tea leaves.

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

It's possible to both not like Trump and to not want to live in a Stalinist banana republic.

---

I agree with you. I defended Trump and his criminal role for 6th issues, I do not believe he had direct culpability for that mess. I also thought the Jan 6th Coalition was ridiculous.

Here, we have a Special Counsel that got a Grand Jury indictment. This is a different animal than the other stuff.

Let me be clear, I don't like Trump, believe he is central to the rise of Biden and the destruction of America. Wish he would go back to reality TV. One dose from 2016-18 is enough Trump for me. The fact he won, represents all things wrong with our elections. Money andefia too much influence.

---

one ******* is not the problem.

the reaction of institutions to that ******* is the problem.

once we tolerate that, then politics devolves to nothing more than an argument about the definition of *******s.

---

The last real President was Bush 41. After that, it became this crap of demonizing the other side and one-up-man-ship. It started with Clinton and has continued, it is reaching a critical mass with Trump. We can't go on like this and HAVE to get back to running serious candidates or China will dominate us. Haley, DeSantis, Pompeo, Scott, and even Christie have serious experience governing. We need to get away from clowns like Trump.

---

I agree it started with Clinton, but in other respects you are badly mis-assessing the situation.

We were in "normal politics" under Bush 41, politics where we broadly agreed on the purpose of government, the problems we faced, and primarily disagreed about the best ways to use government (or not) to solve the problems. To some degree, the Cold War forced that upon us. The divide did start with Clinton, who did indeed do things that had always been considered unacceptable - sex with interns in his office, multiple counts of obstruction & conspiracy. Then disbarred. Republicans were hardly unreasonable for impeaching him. But choosing the political route for defense, to ride it out, Democrats set in motion the post-modernist dynamic, betraying their true philosophical colors. Merit hierarchies be damned. It's all about power.

The problem has gotten worse with each successive admin. Dems made Bush 43 pay dearly. Then Obama engaged in purposefully divisive racial policies, and consolidated Democrat hold on governmental institutions by using Stimlus monies to build public sector unions as blue grassroots. Trump was a reaction to all that, and of course the reaction on him was Democrats dropping all pretenses about common good, embracing "regime politics" with gusto. Today, the two sides do not agree on the definitions of basic things, even what are boys and what are girls. And the left controls at least parts of most societal institutions, to include the federal bureaucracy, which is clearly being used to coerce compliance from the center and right portions of the spectrum. So we wildly disagree on the problems AND how to use government (or not) to solve them. We believe spending and the border and....so many things are literally "state sponsored chaos." Meanwhile, Dems are moving in to overdrive defining everything before it to be extirpated as either white supremacy or an existential threat to the climate.

All of that to say is, the "serious experience" argument, no matter how practical it might be, t is going to get drowned out by as an irrelevancy given the situation - we are in a defacto civil war. Conservatives are looking for someone to fight, no matter what, because they correctly perceive the consequences of NOT defending Trump - it will only ratify that Dems have the right to use their power to intimidate their political opponents.

This dynamic until one side gives up and the other one wins.

Wish it wasn't that way, but it is what it is. And I am frankly concerned that so many on the center right work so hard NOT to see it. Dems do not have that limitation. They are all in that they are surrounded by fascists and anything goes to destroy them.

outstanding article here, five years old now, current events proving it more prescient with each passing year.
https://imprimis.hillsdale.edu/americas-cold-civil-war/

---

I do agree with the fight, but I disagree with your choice of Champion. He does more damage, much of it self-inflicted, than forward the cause. Goldwater, Reagan, Bush, and even the Dems at least had real experience. Dislike him, but Clinton had real administrative skills. Obama had real oratory political skills. Bush 45 had real governing skills. We are not seeing that with Trump. He is a reality TV guy and media personality and acting like it. He is damaging the situation more than helping because he cannot win a General Election. He hasn't had a positive impact since 2016!

---

It's the champion we have. As long as he has the kind of support he commands, it is simply not possible to make the case that another is clearly stronger.

Not advocating anything. Just reading the tea leaves.

---

Well, I do not think he will be an issue by election time. He will have bigger issues to deal with.

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

It's possible to both not like Trump and to not want to live in a Stalinist banana republic.

---

I agree with you. I defended Trump and his criminal role for 6th issues, I do not believe he had direct culpability for that mess. I also thought the Jan 6th Coalition was ridiculous.

Here, we have a Special Counsel that got a Grand Jury indictment. This is a different animal than the other stuff.

Let me be clear, I don't like Trump, believe he is central to the rise of Biden and the destruction of America. Wish he would go back to reality TV. One dose from 2016-18 is enough Trump for me. The fact he won, represents all things wrong with our elections. Money andefia too much influence.

---

one ******* is not the problem.

the reaction of institutions to that ******* is the problem.

once we tolerate that, then politics devolves to nothing more than an argument about the definition of *******s.

---

The last real President was Bush 41. After that, it became this crap of demonizing the other side and one-up-man-ship. It started with Clinton and has continued, it is reaching a critical mass with Trump. We can't go on like this and HAVE to get back to running serious candidates or China will dominate us. Haley, DeSantis, Pompeo, Scott, and even Christie have serious experience governing. We need to get away from clowns like Trump.

---

I agree it started with Clinton, but in other respects you are badly mis-assessing the situation.

We were in "normal politics" under Bush 41, politics where we broadly agreed on the purpose of government, the problems we faced, and primarily disagreed about the best ways to use government (or not) to solve the problems. To some degree, the Cold War forced that upon us. The divide did start with Clinton, who did indeed do things that had always been considered unacceptable - sex with interns in his office, multiple counts of obstruction & conspiracy. Then disbarred. Republicans were hardly unreasonable for impeaching him. But choosing the political route for defense, to ride it out, Democrats set in motion the post-modernist dynamic, betraying their true philosophical colors. Merit hierarchies be damned. It's all about power.

The problem has gotten worse with each successive admin. Dems made Bush 43 pay dearly. Then Obama engaged in purposefully divisive racial policies, and consolidated Democrat hold on governmental institutions by using Stimlus monies to build public sector unions as blue grassroots. Trump was a reaction to all that, and of course the reaction on him was Democrats dropping all pretenses about common good, embracing "regime politics" with gusto. Today, the two sides do not agree on the definitions of basic things, even what are boys and what are girls. And the left controls at least parts of most societal institutions, to include the federal bureaucracy, which is clearly being used to coerce compliance from the center and right portions of the spectrum. So we wildly disagree on the problems AND how to use government (or not) to solve them. We believe spending and the border and....so many things are literally "state sponsored chaos." Meanwhile, Dems are moving in to overdrive defining everything before it to be extirpated as either white supremacy or an existential threat to the climate.

All of that to say is, the "serious experience" argument, no matter how practical it might be, t is going to get drowned out by as an irrelevancy given the situation - we are in a defacto civil war. Conservatives are looking for someone to fight, no matter what, because they correctly perceive the consequences of NOT defending Trump - it will only ratify that Dems have the right to use their power to intimidate their political opponents.

This dynamic until one side gives up and the other one wins.

Wish it wasn't that way, but it is what it is. And I am frankly concerned that so many on the center right work so hard NOT to see it. Dems do not have that limitation. They are all in that they are surrounded by fascists and anything goes to destroy them.

outstanding article here, five years old now, current events proving it more prescient with each passing year.
https://imprimis.hillsdale.edu/americas-cold-civil-war/

---

I do agree with the fight, but I disagree with your choice of Champion. He does more damage, much of it self-inflicted, than forward the cause. Goldwater, Reagan, Bush, and even the Dems at least had real experience. Dislike him, but Clinton had real administrative skills. Obama had real oratory political skills. Bush 45 had real governing skills. We are not seeing that with Trump. He is a reality TV guy and media personality and acting like it. He is damaging the situation more than helping because he cannot win a General Election. He hasn't had a positive impact since 2016!

---

It's the champion we have. As long as he has the kind of support he commands, it is simply not possible to make the case that another is clearly stronger.

Not advocating anything. Just reading the tea leaves.

---

Well, I do not think he will be an issue by election time. He will have bigger issues to deal with.

---

he will make those bigger issues THE issue, and they may well become a positive for him.

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

It's possible to both not like Trump and to not want to live in a Stalinist banana republic.

---

I agree with you. I defended Trump and his criminal role for 6th issues, I do not believe he had direct culpability for that mess. I also thought the Jan 6th Coalition was ridiculous.

Here, we have a Special Counsel that got a Grand Jury indictment. This is a different animal than the other stuff.

Let me be clear, I don't like Trump, believe he is central to the rise of Biden and the destruction of America. Wish he would go back to reality TV. One dose from 2016-18 is enough Trump for me. The fact he won, represents all things wrong with our elections. Money andefia too much influence.

---

one ******* is not the problem.

the reaction of institutions to that ******* is the problem.

once we tolerate that, then politics devolves to nothing more than an argument about the definition of *******s.

---

The last real President was Bush 41. After that, it became this crap of demonizing the other side and one-up-man-ship. It started with Clinton and has continued, it is reaching a critical mass with Trump. We can't go on like this and HAVE to get back to running serious candidates or China will dominate us. Haley, DeSantis, Pompeo, Scott, and even Christie have serious experience governing. We need to get away from clowns like Trump.

---

I agree it started with Clinton, but in other respects you are badly mis-assessing the situation.

We were in "normal politics" under Bush 41, politics where we broadly agreed on the purpose of government, the problems we faced, and primarily disagreed about the best ways to use government (or not) to solve the problems. To some degree, the Cold War forced that upon us. The divide did start with Clinton, who did indeed do things that had always been considered unacceptable - sex with interns in his office, multiple counts of obstruction & conspiracy. Then disbarred. Republicans were hardly unreasonable for impeaching him. But choosing the political route for defense, to ride it out, Democrats set in motion the post-modernist dynamic, betraying their true philosophical colors. Merit hierarchies be damned. It's all about power.

The problem has gotten worse with each successive admin. Dems made Bush 43 pay dearly. Then Obama engaged in purposefully divisive racial policies, and consolidated Democrat hold on governmental institutions by using Stimlus monies to build public sector unions as blue grassroots. Trump was a reaction to all that, and of course the reaction on him was Democrats dropping all pretenses about common good, embracing "regime politics" with gusto. Today, the two sides do not agree on the definitions of basic things, even what are boys and what are girls. And the left controls at least parts of most societal institutions, to include the federal bureaucracy, which is clearly being used to coerce compliance from the center and right portions of the spectrum. So we wildly disagree on the problems AND how to use government (or not) to solve them. We believe spending and the border and....so many things are literally "state sponsored chaos." Meanwhile, Dems are moving in to overdrive defining everything before it to be extirpated as either white supremacy or an existential threat to the climate.

All of that to say is, the "serious experience" argument, no matter how practical it might be, t is going to get drowned out by as an irrelevancy given the situation - we are in a defacto civil war. Conservatives are looking for someone to fight, no matter what, because they correctly perceive the consequences of NOT defending Trump - it will only ratify that Dems have the right to use their power to intimidate their political opponents.

This dynamic until one side gives up and the other one wins.

Wish it wasn't that way, but it is what it is. And I am frankly concerned that so many on the center right work so hard NOT to see it. Dems do not have that limitation. They are all in that they are surrounded by fascists and anything goes to destroy them.

outstanding article here, five years old now, current events proving it more prescient with each passing year.
https://imprimis.hillsdale.edu/americas-cold-civil-war/

---

I do agree with the fight, but I disagree with your choice of Champion. He does more damage, much of it self-inflicted, than forward the cause. Goldwater, Reagan, Bush, and even the Dems at least had real experience. Dislike him, but Clinton had real administrative skills. Obama had real oratory political skills. Bush 45 had real governing skills. We are not seeing that with Trump. He is a reality TV guy and media personality and acting like it. He is damaging the situation more than helping because he cannot win a General Election. He hasn't had a positive impact since 2016!

---

It's the champion we have. As long as he has the kind of support he commands, it is simply not possible to make the case that another is clearly stronger.

Not advocating anything. Just reading the tea leaves.

---

Well, I do not think he will be an issue by election time. He will have bigger issues to deal with.

---

he will make those bigger issues THE issue, and they may well become a positive for him.

---

Primary, yes. He may just have enough to win nomination. Win a General Election, he is done. GOP foolish hooking their wagon to a candidate no Dem, women or independent moderate would vote. Not only that, he guarantees record turnout for Dems. He is not a winning strategy for GOP.

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

It's possible to both not like Trump and to not want to live in a Stalinist banana republic.

---

I agree with you. I defended Trump and his criminal role for 6th issues, I do not believe he had direct culpability for that mess. I also thought the Jan 6th Coalition was ridiculous.

Here, we have a Special Counsel that got a Grand Jury indictment. This is a different animal than the other stuff.

Let me be clear, I don't like Trump, believe he is central to the rise of Biden and the destruction of America. Wish he would go back to reality TV. One dose from 2016-18 is enough Trump for me. The fact he won, represents all things wrong with our elections. Money andefia too much influence.

---

one ******* is not the problem.

the reaction of institutions to that ******* is the problem.

once we tolerate that, then politics devolves to nothing more than an argument about the definition of *******s.

---

The last real President was Bush 41. After that, it became this crap of demonizing the other side and one-up-man-ship. It started with Clinton and has continued, it is reaching a critical mass with Trump. We can't go on like this and HAVE to get back to running serious candidates or China will dominate us. Haley, DeSantis, Pompeo, Scott, and even Christie have serious experience governing. We need to get away from clowns like Trump.

---

I agree it started with Clinton, but in other respects you are badly mis-assessing the situation.

We were in "normal politics" under Bush 41, politics where we broadly agreed on the purpose of government, the problems we faced, and primarily disagreed about the best ways to use government (or not) to solve the problems. To some degree, the Cold War forced that upon us. The divide did start with Clinton, who did indeed do things that had always been considered unacceptable - sex with interns in his office, multiple counts of obstruction & conspiracy. Then disbarred. Republicans were hardly unreasonable for impeaching him. But choosing the political route for defense, to ride it out, Democrats set in motion the post-modernist dynamic, betraying their true philosophical colors. Merit hierarchies be damned. It's all about power.

The problem has gotten worse with each successive admin. Dems made Bush 43 pay dearly. Then Obama engaged in purposefully divisive racial policies, and consolidated Democrat hold on governmental institutions by using Stimlus monies to build public sector unions as blue grassroots. Trump was a reaction to all that, and of course the reaction on him was Democrats dropping all pretenses about common good, embracing "regime politics" with gusto. Today, the two sides do not agree on the definitions of basic things, even what are boys and what are girls. And the left controls at least parts of most societal institutions, to include the federal bureaucracy, which is clearly being used to coerce compliance from the center and right portions of the spectrum. So we wildly disagree on the problems AND how to use government (or not) to solve them. We believe spending and the border and....so many things are literally "state sponsored chaos." Meanwhile, Dems are moving in to overdrive defining everything before it to be extirpated as either white supremacy or an existential threat to the climate.

All of that to say is, the "serious experience" argument, no matter how practical it might be, t is going to get drowned out by as an irrelevancy given the situation - we are in a defacto civil war. Conservatives are looking for someone to fight, no matter what, because they correctly perceive the consequences of NOT defending Trump - it will only ratify that Dems have the right to use their power to intimidate their political opponents.

This dynamic until one side gives up and the other one wins.

Wish it wasn't that way, but it is what it is. And I am frankly concerned that so many on the center right work so hard NOT to see it. Dems do not have that limitation. They are all in that they are surrounded by fascists and anything goes to destroy them.

outstanding article here, five years old now, current events proving it more prescient with each passing year.
https://imprimis.hillsdale.edu/americas-cold-civil-war/

---

I do agree with the fight, but I disagree with your choice of Champion. He does more damage, much of it self-inflicted, than forward the cause. Goldwater, Reagan, Bush, and even the Dems at least had real experience. Dislike him, but Clinton had real administrative skills. Obama had real oratory political skills. Bush 45 had real governing skills. We are not seeing that with Trump. He is a reality TV guy and media personality and acting like it. He is damaging the situation more than helping because he cannot win a General Election. He hasn't had a positive impact since 2016!

---

It's the champion we have. As long as he has the kind of support he commands, it is simply not possible to make the case that another is clearly stronger.

Not advocating anything. Just reading the tea leaves.

---

Well, I do not think he will be an issue by election time. He will have bigger issues to deal with.

---

he will make those bigger issues THE issue, and they may well become a positive for him.

---

Primary, yes. He may just have enough to win nomination. Win a General Election, he is done. GOP foolish hooking their wagon to a candidate no Dem, women or independent moderate would vote. Not only that, he guarantees record turnout for Dems. He is not a winning strategy for GOP.

---

Yup. Been saying this for months. Trump probably wins the nomination, and loses the election badly.

Mothra said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

It's possible to both not like Trump and to not want to live in a Stalinist banana republic.

---

I agree with you. I defended Trump and his criminal role for 6th issues, I do not believe he had direct culpability for that mess. I also thought the Jan 6th Coalition was ridiculous.

Here, we have a Special Counsel that got a Grand Jury indictment. This is a different animal than the other stuff.

Let me be clear, I don't like Trump, believe he is central to the rise of Biden and the destruction of America. Wish he would go back to reality TV. One dose from 2016-18 is enough Trump for me. The fact he won, represents all things wrong with our elections. Money andefia too much influence.

---

one ******* is not the problem.

the reaction of institutions to that ******* is the problem.

once we tolerate that, then politics devolves to nothing more than an argument about the definition of *******s.

---

The last real President was Bush 41. After that, it became this crap of demonizing the other side and one-up-man-ship. It started with Clinton and has continued, it is reaching a critical mass with Trump. We can't go on like this and HAVE to get back to running serious candidates or China will dominate us. Haley, DeSantis, Pompeo, Scott, and even Christie have serious experience governing. We need to get away from clowns like Trump.

---

I agree it started with Clinton, but in other respects you are badly mis-assessing the situation.

We were in "normal politics" under Bush 41, politics where we broadly agreed on the purpose of government, the problems we faced, and primarily disagreed about the best ways to use government (or not) to solve the problems. To some degree, the Cold War forced that upon us. The divide did start with Clinton, who did indeed do things that had always been considered unacceptable - sex with interns in his office, multiple counts of obstruction & conspiracy. Then disbarred. Republicans were hardly unreasonable for impeaching him. But choosing the political route for defense, to ride it out, Democrats set in motion the post-modernist dynamic, betraying their true philosophical colors. Merit hierarchies be damned. It's all about power.

The problem has gotten worse with each successive admin. Dems made Bush 43 pay dearly. Then Obama engaged in purposefully divisive racial policies, and consolidated Democrat hold on governmental institutions by using Stimlus monies to build public sector unions as blue grassroots. Trump was a reaction to all that, and of course the reaction on him was Democrats dropping all pretenses about common good, embracing "regime politics" with gusto. Today, the two sides do not agree on the definitions of basic things, even what are boys and what are girls. And the left controls at least parts of most societal institutions, to include the federal bureaucracy, which is clearly being used to coerce compliance from the center and right portions of the spectrum. So we wildly disagree on the problems AND how to use government (or not) to solve them. We believe spending and the border and....so many things are literally "state sponsored chaos." Meanwhile, Dems are moving in to overdrive defining everything before it to be extirpated as either white supremacy or an existential threat to the climate.

All of that to say is, the "serious experience" argument, no matter how practical it might be, t is going to get drowned out by as an irrelevancy given the situation - we are in a defacto civil war. Conservatives are looking for someone to fight, no matter what, because they correctly perceive the consequences of NOT defending Trump - it will only ratify that Dems have the right to use their power to intimidate their political opponents.

This dynamic until one side gives up and the other one wins.

Wish it wasn't that way, but it is what it is. And I am frankly concerned that so many on the center right work so hard NOT to see it. Dems do not have that limitation. They are all in that they are surrounded by fascists and anything goes to destroy them.

outstanding article here, five years old now, current events proving it more prescient with each passing year.
https://imprimis.hillsdale.edu/americas-cold-civil-war/

---

I do agree with the fight, but I disagree with your choice of Champion. He does more damage, much of it self-inflicted, than forward the cause. Goldwater, Reagan, Bush, and even the Dems at least had real experience. Dislike him, but Clinton had real administrative skills. Obama had real oratory political skills. Bush 45 had real governing skills. We are not seeing that with Trump. He is a reality TV guy and media personality and acting like it. He is damaging the situation more than helping because he cannot win a General Election. He hasn't had a positive impact since 2016!

---

It's the champion we have. As long as he has the kind of support he commands, it is simply not possible to make the case that another is clearly stronger.

Not advocating anything. Just reading the tea leaves.

---

Well, I do not think he will be an issue by election time. He will have bigger issues to deal with.

---

he will make those bigger issues THE issue, and they may well become a positive for him.

---

Primary, yes. He may just have enough to win nomination. Win a General Election, he is done. GOP foolish hooking their wagon to a candidate no Dem, women or independent moderate would vote. Not only that, he guarantees record turnout for Dems. He is not a winning strategy for GOP.

---

Yup. Been saying this for months. Trump probably wins the nomination, and loses the election badly.

---

I don't think Trump wins the primary

Osodecentx said:

---

Mothra said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

It's possible to both not like Trump and to not want to live in a Stalinist banana republic.

---

I agree with you. I defended Trump and his criminal role for 6th issues, I do not believe he had direct culpability for that mess. I also thought the Jan 6th Coalition was ridiculous.

Here, we have a Special Counsel that got a Grand Jury indictment. This is a different animal than the other stuff.

Let me be clear, I don't like Trump, believe he is central to the rise of Biden and the destruction of America. Wish he would go back to reality TV. One dose from 2016-18 is enough Trump for me. The fact he won, represents all things wrong with our elections. Money andefia too much influence.

---

one ******* is not the problem.

the reaction of institutions to that ******* is the problem.

once we tolerate that, then politics devolves to nothing more than an argument about the definition of *******s.

---

The last real President was Bush 41. After that, it became this crap of demonizing the other side and one-up-man-ship. It started with Clinton and has continued, it is reaching a critical mass with Trump. We can't go on like this and HAVE to get back to running serious candidates or China will dominate us. Haley, DeSantis, Pompeo, Scott, and even Christie have serious experience governing. We need to get away from clowns like Trump.

---

I agree it started with Clinton, but in other respects you are badly mis-assessing the situation.

We were in "normal politics" under Bush 41, politics where we broadly agreed on the purpose of government, the problems we faced, and primarily disagreed about the best ways to use government (or not) to solve the problems. To some degree, the Cold War forced that upon us. The divide did start with Clinton, who did indeed do things that had always been considered unacceptable - sex with interns in his office, multiple counts of obstruction & conspiracy. Then disbarred. Republicans were hardly unreasonable for impeaching him. But choosing the political route for defense, to ride it out, Democrats set in motion the post-modernist dynamic, betraying their true philosophical colors. Merit hierarchies be damned. It's all about power.

The problem has gotten worse with each successive admin. Dems made Bush 43 pay dearly. Then Obama engaged in purposefully divisive racial policies, and consolidated Democrat hold on governmental institutions by using Stimlus monies to build public sector unions as blue grassroots. Trump was a reaction to all that, and of course the reaction on him was Democrats dropping all pretenses about common good, embracing "regime politics" with gusto. Today, the two sides do not agree on the definitions of basic things, even what are boys and what are girls. And the left controls at least parts of most societal institutions, to include the federal bureaucracy, which is clearly being used to coerce compliance from the center and right portions of the spectrum. So we wildly disagree on the problems AND how to use government (or not) to solve them. We believe spending and the border and....so many things are literally "state sponsored chaos." Meanwhile, Dems are moving in to overdrive defining everything before it to be extirpated as either white supremacy or an existential threat to the climate.

All of that to say is, the "serious experience" argument, no matter how practical it might be, t is going to get drowned out by as an irrelevancy given the situation - we are in a defacto civil war. Conservatives are looking for someone to fight, no matter what, because they correctly perceive the consequences of NOT defending Trump - it will only ratify that Dems have the right to use their power to intimidate their political opponents.

This dynamic until one side gives up and the other one wins.

Wish it wasn't that way, but it is what it is. And I am frankly concerned that so many on the center right work so hard NOT to see it. Dems do not have that limitation. They are all in that they are surrounded by fascists and anything goes to destroy them.

outstanding article here, five years old now, current events proving it more prescient with each passing year.
https://imprimis.hillsdale.edu/americas-cold-civil-war/

---

I do agree with the fight, but I disagree with your choice of Champion. He does more damage, much of it self-inflicted, than forward the cause. Goldwater, Reagan, Bush, and even the Dems at least had real experience. Dislike him, but Clinton had real administrative skills. Obama had real oratory political skills. Bush 45 had real governing skills. We are not seeing that with Trump. He is a reality TV guy and media personality and acting like it. He is damaging the situation more than helping because he cannot win a General Election. He hasn't had a positive impact since 2016!

---

It's the champion we have. As long as he has the kind of support he commands, it is simply not possible to make the case that another is clearly stronger.

Not advocating anything. Just reading the tea leaves.

---

Well, I do not think he will be an issue by election time. He will have bigger issues to deal with.

---

he will make those bigger issues THE issue, and they may well become a positive for him.

---

Primary, yes. He may just have enough to win nomination. Win a General Election, he is done. GOP foolish hooking their wagon to a candidate no Dem, women or independent moderate would vote. Not only that, he guarantees record turnout for Dems. He is not a winning strategy for GOP.

---

Yup. Been saying this for months. Trump probably wins the nomination, and loses the election badly.

---

I don't think Trump wins the primary

---

Hope you're right. I am not optimistic.

The tea and every other leaf has him at 30% approval rating

Greene: Today I'd like to announce I'm writing an appropriations rider to defund Jack Smith's special counsel… pic.twitter.com/1c2aarwECi

— Acyn (@Acyn) June 12, 2023

FLBear5630 said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Porteroso said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

---

Screw this. To Hell with DeSantis and Tim Scott. Both are good men but only Trump can clean up this corruption that has taken over Washington, D.C. and rescue our Republic. Still do not like Trump as a person, but I am all in. The DOJ has convinced me to change my vote in the 2024 Presidential Election. Enough.

---

You really think Trump is person to clean up DC? It got worse with him in the mix, Nation has never been as divided. He needs to go back to TV or this won't end.

---

Seems you're a socialist Obama Biden type voter

What specifics did you dislike about Trump's policies that makes you dislike him so much?

---

Love it, if I don't agree with you on Trump, I am a Socialist!

Trumps policies were not special, nor where they all his. I don't get why the "die on the hill" mentality for this clown. Read a little about Trump and his life in NY before he went to TV. The guy was the biggest Obama Dem there was. He is no conservative, unless he can make a buck at it.

That said, he was a better choice than Hilary or Biden in 2016 &2020. But, time for him to go away, he is not the same guy from 2016 and definitely different than his whole life as a Dem at the 1970s Studio 54 Trump. If he runs and wins, it will be 4 more years of the same BS. We can't survive that with China. He is not the answer.

By the way, I think HRC and Biden should be prosecuted too. All three broke the law and need to be held accountable. I would go Haley, Pompeo, Scott, DeSantis and even Christie over Trump. Trump is poison.

---

I've still never gotten an answer from anyone that hates Trump about what they dislike about his policies

I definitely won't die on a hill for Trump. He's not a do nothing corrupt loser like Obama or Biden who severely hurt and are hurting the country but yes if one votes for those racist losers, they are in fact supporting socialism and as my white friends would say "how can any white guy vote Democrat?"

---

I'm just curious, do you know anyone who hates Trump? Like who was it you asked.

---

There several Examples in this very thread with betas emoting

---

My experience is that Alpha's don't last. They push as bullies until they force those they are bullying to use overwhelming force or any means possible. Good example here, read a news story an ex-NAVY seal that got killed here a couple of years ago. Got into an altercation after a few drinks, guy who shot him in the restaurant said "what else was I supposed to do just let him beat me to death?"...

Learned the Alpha's don't last lesson at the JFK at Ft Bragg in 87, from a hand-to-hand instructor. The lesson I saw was outside the Flaming Mug bar, as a mild-mannered SF beta type, caved in a guys knee and walked away after being pushed and pushed. There is value in trying to reach compromise. The there can be only one doesn't end up well for the other 99.9%

---

You have a misconstrued definition of alpha based on the examples you cite

---

Please what is your definition? I am using the Oxford Dictionary.

Definition of alpha male noun from the Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary
alpha male

[ol]

[usually singular] the man or male animal in a particular group who has the most power

[url=https://elt.oup.com/catalogue/items/global/grammar_vocabulary/practical_english_usage_4th_edition/9780194202510?utm_source=old-site&utm_medium=content-link&utm_campaign=old-content-links][/url]

a man who tends to take control in social and professional situations

[/ol]
I also know that was the term used in the hand-to-hand courses I had, - "remember alpha males have short life spans..."

In addition, based on you comment about Beta's and emotions.

Sorry, if I mis-read your intent.

---

Interesting. Sounds like youre conflating dumb asses with potentially dangerous, capable men who are civilized.

The weak betas are the ones weeded out first. It's how humanity survives and one can't fight nature

---

Don't disagree. Tech has changed the rules somewhat. In my experience Alphas have trouble with that concept. They also have trouble with the concept that not everything is a zero sum game.

---

You weren't trying to, but you just put the problem with US foreign policy in a nutshell.

Sam Lowry said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Porteroso said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

---

Screw this. To Hell with DeSantis and Tim Scott. Both are good men but only Trump can clean up this corruption that has taken over Washington, D.C. and rescue our Republic. Still do not like Trump as a person, but I am all in. The DOJ has convinced me to change my vote in the 2024 Presidential Election. Enough.

---

You really think Trump is person to clean up DC? It got worse with him in the mix, Nation has never been as divided. He needs to go back to TV or this won't end.

---

Seems you're a socialist Obama Biden type voter

What specifics did you dislike about Trump's policies that makes you dislike him so much?

---

Love it, if I don't agree with you on Trump, I am a Socialist!

Trumps policies were not special, nor where they all his. I don't get why the "die on the hill" mentality for this clown. Read a little about Trump and his life in NY before he went to TV. The guy was the biggest Obama Dem there was. He is no conservative, unless he can make a buck at it.

That said, he was a better choice than Hilary or Biden in 2016 &2020. But, time for him to go away, he is not the same guy from 2016 and definitely different than his whole life as a Dem at the 1970s Studio 54 Trump. If he runs and wins, it will be 4 more years of the same BS. We can't survive that with China. He is not the answer.

By the way, I think HRC and Biden should be prosecuted too. All three broke the law and need to be held accountable. I would go Haley, Pompeo, Scott, DeSantis and even Christie over Trump. Trump is poison.

---

I've still never gotten an answer from anyone that hates Trump about what they dislike about his policies

I definitely won't die on a hill for Trump. He's not a do nothing corrupt loser like Obama or Biden who severely hurt and are hurting the country but yes if one votes for those racist losers, they are in fact supporting socialism and as my white friends would say "how can any white guy vote Democrat?"

---

I'm just curious, do you know anyone who hates Trump? Like who was it you asked.

---

There several Examples in this very thread with betas emoting

---

My experience is that Alpha's don't last. They push as bullies until they force those they are bullying to use overwhelming force or any means possible. Good example here, read a news story an ex-NAVY seal that got killed here a couple of years ago. Got into an altercation after a few drinks, guy who shot him in the restaurant said "what else was I supposed to do just let him beat me to death?"...

Learned the Alpha's don't last lesson at the JFK at Ft Bragg in 87, from a hand-to-hand instructor. The lesson I saw was outside the Flaming Mug bar, as a mild-mannered SF beta type, caved in a guys knee and walked away after being pushed and pushed. There is value in trying to reach compromise. The there can be only one doesn't end up well for the other 99.9%

---

You have a misconstrued definition of alpha based on the examples you cite

---

Please what is your definition? I am using the Oxford Dictionary.

Definition of alpha male noun from the Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary
alpha male

[ol]

[usually singular] the man or male animal in a particular group who has the most power

[url=https://elt.oup.com/catalogue/items/global/grammar_vocabulary/practical_english_usage_4th_edition/9780194202510?utm_source=old-site&utm_medium=content-link&utm_campaign=old-content-links][/url]

a man who tends to take control in social and professional situations

[/ol]
I also know that was the term used in the hand-to-hand courses I had, - "remember alpha males have short life spans..."

In addition, based on you comment about Beta's and emotions.

Sorry, if I mis-read your intent.

---

Interesting. Sounds like youre conflating dumb asses with potentially dangerous, capable men who are civilized.

The weak betas are the ones weeded out first. It's how humanity survives and one can't fight nature

---

Don't disagree. Tech has changed the rules somewhat. In my experience Alphas have trouble with that concept. They also have trouble with the concept that not everything is a zero sum game.

---

You weren't trying to, but you just put the problem with US foreign policy in a nutshell.

---

I don't disagree with you on some points! Too many "Alpha's". Wouldn't argue that one.

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

It's possible to both not like Trump and to not want to live in a Stalinist banana republic.

---

I agree with you. I defended Trump and his criminal role for 6th issues, I do not believe he had direct culpability for that mess. I also thought the Jan 6th Coalition was ridiculous.

Here, we have a Special Counsel that got a Grand Jury indictment. This is a different animal than the other stuff.

Let me be clear, I don't like Trump, believe he is central to the rise of Biden and the destruction of America. Wish he would go back to reality TV. One dose from 2016-18 is enough Trump for me. The fact he won, represents all things wrong with our elections. Money andefia too much influence.

---

one ******* is not the problem.

the reaction of institutions to that ******* is the problem.

once we tolerate that, then politics devolves to nothing more than an argument about the definition of *******s.

---

The last real President was Bush 41. After that, it became this crap of demonizing the other side and one-up-man-ship. It started with Clinton and has continued, it is reaching a critical mass with Trump. We can't go on like this and HAVE to get back to running serious candidates or China will dominate us. Haley, DeSantis, Pompeo, Scott, and even Christie have serious experience governing. We need to get away from clowns like Trump.

---

I agree it started with Clinton, but in other respects you are badly mis-assessing the situation.

We were in "normal politics" under Bush 41, politics where we broadly agreed on the purpose of government, the problems we faced, and primarily disagreed about the best ways to use government (or not) to solve the problems. To some degree, the Cold War forced that upon us. The divide did start with Clinton, who did indeed do things that had always been considered unacceptable - sex with interns in his office, multiple counts of obstruction & conspiracy. Then disbarred. Republicans were hardly unreasonable for impeaching him. But choosing the political route for defense, to ride it out, Democrats set in motion the post-modernist dynamic, betraying their true philosophical colors. Merit hierarchies be damned. It's all about power.

The problem has gotten worse with each successive admin. Dems made Bush 43 pay dearly. Then Obama engaged in purposefully divisive racial policies, and consolidated Democrat hold on governmental institutions by using Stimlus monies to build public sector unions as blue grassroots. Trump was a reaction to all that, and of course the reaction on him was Democrats dropping all pretenses about common good, embracing "regime politics" with gusto. Today, the two sides do not agree on the definitions of basic things, even what are boys and what are girls. And the left controls at least parts of most societal institutions, to include the federal bureaucracy, which is clearly being used to coerce compliance from the center and right portions of the spectrum. So we wildly disagree on the problems AND how to use government (or not) to solve them. We believe spending and the border and....so many things are literally "state sponsored chaos." Meanwhile, Dems are moving in to overdrive defining everything before it to be extirpated as either white supremacy or an existential threat to the climate.

All of that to say is, the "serious experience" argument, no matter how practical it might be, t is going to get drowned out by as an irrelevancy given the situation - we are in a defacto civil war. Conservatives are looking for someone to fight, no matter what, because they correctly perceive the consequences of NOT defending Trump - it will only ratify that Dems have the right to use their power to intimidate their political opponents.

This dynamic until one side gives up and the other one wins.

Wish it wasn't that way, but it is what it is. And I am frankly concerned that so many on the center right work so hard NOT to see it. Dems do not have that limitation. They are all in that they are surrounded by fascists and anything goes to destroy them.

outstanding article here, five years old now, current events proving it more prescient with each passing year.
https://imprimis.hillsdale.edu/americas-cold-civil-war/

---

I do agree with the fight, but I disagree with your choice of Champion. He does more damage, much of it self-inflicted, than forward the cause. Goldwater, Reagan, Bush, and even the Dems at least had real experience. Dislike him, but Clinton had real administrative skills. Obama had real oratory political skills. Bush 45 had real governing skills. We are not seeing that with Trump. He is a reality TV guy and media personality and acting like it. He is damaging the situation more than helping because he cannot win a General Election. He hasn't had a positive impact since 2016!

---

It's the champion we have. As long as he has the kind of support he commands, it is simply not possible to make the case that another is clearly stronger.

Not advocating anything. Just reading the tea leaves.

---

Well, I do not think he will be an issue by election time. He will have bigger issues to deal with.

---

he will make those bigger issues THE issue, and they may well become a positive for him.

---

Primary, yes. He may just have enough to win nomination. Win a General Election, he is done. GOP foolish hooking their wagon to a candidate no Dem, women or independent moderate would vote. Not only that, he guarantees record turnout for Dems. He is not a winning strategy for GOP.

---

Pretty sure that's a good RDS campaign meme which probably isn't real-life true. To the extent that the political middle sees "dual standards of justice" as a serious issue (and by good margin they do), only Trump can fully exploit it.

sombear said:

---

The tea and every other leaf has him at 30% approval rating

---

he's running neck & neck with Biden in that regard....

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

It's possible to both not like Trump and to not want to live in a Stalinist banana republic.

---

I agree with you. I defended Trump and his criminal role for 6th issues, I do not believe he had direct culpability for that mess. I also thought the Jan 6th Coalition was ridiculous.

Here, we have a Special Counsel that got a Grand Jury indictment. This is a different animal than the other stuff.

Let me be clear, I don't like Trump, believe he is central to the rise of Biden and the destruction of America. Wish he would go back to reality TV. One dose from 2016-18 is enough Trump for me. The fact he won, represents all things wrong with our elections. Money andefia too much influence.

---

one ******* is not the problem.

the reaction of institutions to that ******* is the problem.

once we tolerate that, then politics devolves to nothing more than an argument about the definition of *******s.

---

The last real President was Bush 41. After that, it became this crap of demonizing the other side and one-up-man-ship. It started with Clinton and has continued, it is reaching a critical mass with Trump. We can't go on like this and HAVE to get back to running serious candidates or China will dominate us. Haley, DeSantis, Pompeo, Scott, and even Christie have serious experience governing. We need to get away from clowns like Trump.

---

I agree it started with Clinton, but in other respects you are badly mis-assessing the situation.

We were in "normal politics" under Bush 41, politics where we broadly agreed on the purpose of government, the problems we faced, and primarily disagreed about the best ways to use government (or not) to solve the problems. To some degree, the Cold War forced that upon us. The divide did start with Clinton, who did indeed do things that had always been considered unacceptable - sex with interns in his office, multiple counts of obstruction & conspiracy. Then disbarred. Republicans were hardly unreasonable for impeaching him. But choosing the political route for defense, to ride it out, Democrats set in motion the post-modernist dynamic, betraying their true philosophical colors. Merit hierarchies be damned. It's all about power.

The problem has gotten worse with each successive admin. Dems made Bush 43 pay dearly. Then Obama engaged in purposefully divisive racial policies, and consolidated Democrat hold on governmental institutions by using Stimlus monies to build public sector unions as blue grassroots. Trump was a reaction to all that, and of course the reaction on him was Democrats dropping all pretenses about common good, embracing "regime politics" with gusto. Today, the two sides do not agree on the definitions of basic things, even what are boys and what are girls. And the left controls at least parts of most societal institutions, to include the federal bureaucracy, which is clearly being used to coerce compliance from the center and right portions of the spectrum. So we wildly disagree on the problems AND how to use government (or not) to solve them. We believe spending and the border and....so many things are literally "state sponsored chaos." Meanwhile, Dems are moving in to overdrive defining everything before it to be extirpated as either white supremacy or an existential threat to the climate.

All of that to say is, the "serious experience" argument, no matter how practical it might be, t is going to get drowned out by as an irrelevancy given the situation - we are in a defacto civil war. Conservatives are looking for someone to fight, no matter what, because they correctly perceive the consequences of NOT defending Trump - it will only ratify that Dems have the right to use their power to intimidate their political opponents.

This dynamic until one side gives up and the other one wins.

Wish it wasn't that way, but it is what it is. And I am frankly concerned that so many on the center right work so hard NOT to see it. Dems do not have that limitation. They are all in that they are surrounded by fascists and anything goes to destroy them.

outstanding article here, five years old now, current events proving it more prescient with each passing year.
https://imprimis.hillsdale.edu/americas-cold-civil-war/

---

I do agree with the fight, but I disagree with your choice of Champion. He does more damage, much of it self-inflicted, than forward the cause. Goldwater, Reagan, Bush, and even the Dems at least had real experience. Dislike him, but Clinton had real administrative skills. Obama had real oratory political skills. Bush 45 had real governing skills. We are not seeing that with Trump. He is a reality TV guy and media personality and acting like it. He is damaging the situation more than helping because he cannot win a General Election. He hasn't had a positive impact since 2016!

---

It's the champion we have. As long as he has the kind of support he commands, it is simply not possible to make the case that another is clearly stronger.

Not advocating anything. Just reading the tea leaves.

---

Well, I do not think he will be an issue by election time. He will have bigger issues to deal with.

---

he will make those bigger issues THE issue, and they may well become a positive for him.

---

Primary, yes. He may just have enough to win nomination. Win a General Election, he is done. GOP foolish hooking their wagon to a candidate no Dem, women or independent moderate would vote. Not only that, he guarantees record turnout for Dems. He is not a winning strategy for GOP.

---

Pretty sure that's a good RDS campaign meme which probably isn't real-life true. To the extent that the political middle sees "dual standards of justice" as a serious issue (and by good margin they do), only Trump can fully exploit it.

---

No, the GOP can exploit it. Haley, using it as an example of Dem over-reach. I think you are dead-on right.

Trump? I think Trump is distasteful to the point of them just not voting. Also the number of Dems voting will make the point moot. No way they let Trump win. Biden gets 100 million...

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

It's possible to both not like Trump and to not want to live in a Stalinist banana republic.

---

I agree with you. I defended Trump and his criminal role for 6th issues, I do not believe he had direct culpability for that mess. I also thought the Jan 6th Coalition was ridiculous.

Here, we have a Special Counsel that got a Grand Jury indictment. This is a different animal than the other stuff.

Let me be clear, I don't like Trump, believe he is central to the rise of Biden and the destruction of America. Wish he would go back to reality TV. One dose from 2016-18 is enough Trump for me. The fact he won, represents all things wrong with our elections. Money andefia too much influence.

---

one ******* is not the problem.

the reaction of institutions to that ******* is the problem.

once we tolerate that, then politics devolves to nothing more than an argument about the definition of *******s.

---

The last real President was Bush 41. After that, it became this crap of demonizing the other side and one-up-man-ship. It started with Clinton and has continued, it is reaching a critical mass with Trump. We can't go on like this and HAVE to get back to running serious candidates or China will dominate us. Haley, DeSantis, Pompeo, Scott, and even Christie have serious experience governing. We need to get away from clowns like Trump.

---

I agree it started with Clinton, but in other respects you are badly mis-assessing the situation.

We were in "normal politics" under Bush 41, politics where we broadly agreed on the purpose of government, the problems we faced, and primarily disagreed about the best ways to use government (or not) to solve the problems. To some degree, the Cold War forced that upon us. The divide did start with Clinton, who did indeed do things that had always been considered unacceptable - sex with interns in his office, multiple counts of obstruction & conspiracy. Then disbarred. Republicans were hardly unreasonable for impeaching him. But choosing the political route for defense, to ride it out, Democrats set in motion the post-modernist dynamic, betraying their true philosophical colors. Merit hierarchies be damned. It's all about power.

The problem has gotten worse with each successive admin. Dems made Bush 43 pay dearly. Then Obama engaged in purposefully divisive racial policies, and consolidated Democrat hold on governmental institutions by using Stimlus monies to build public sector unions as blue grassroots. Trump was a reaction to all that, and of course the reaction on him was Democrats dropping all pretenses about common good, embracing "regime politics" with gusto. Today, the two sides do not agree on the definitions of basic things, even what are boys and what are girls. And the left controls at least parts of most societal institutions, to include the federal bureaucracy, which is clearly being used to coerce compliance from the center and right portions of the spectrum. So we wildly disagree on the problems AND how to use government (or not) to solve them. We believe spending and the border and....so many things are literally "state sponsored chaos." Meanwhile, Dems are moving in to overdrive defining everything before it to be extirpated as either white supremacy or an existential threat to the climate.

All of that to say is, the "serious experience" argument, no matter how practical it might be, t is going to get drowned out by as an irrelevancy given the situation - we are in a defacto civil war. Conservatives are looking for someone to fight, no matter what, because they correctly perceive the consequences of NOT defending Trump - it will only ratify that Dems have the right to use their power to intimidate their political opponents.

This dynamic until one side gives up and the other one wins.

Wish it wasn't that way, but it is what it is. And I am frankly concerned that so many on the center right work so hard NOT to see it. Dems do not have that limitation. They are all in that they are surrounded by fascists and anything goes to destroy them.

outstanding article here, five years old now, current events proving it more prescient with each passing year.
https://imprimis.hillsdale.edu/americas-cold-civil-war/

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I do agree with the fight, but I disagree with your choice of Champion. He does more damage, much of it self-inflicted, than forward the cause. Goldwater, Reagan, Bush, and even the Dems at least had real experience. Dislike him, but Clinton had real administrative skills. Obama had real oratory political skills. Bush 45 had real governing skills. We are not seeing that with Trump. He is a reality TV guy and media personality and acting like it. He is damaging the situation more than helping because he cannot win a General Election. He hasn't had a positive impact since 2016!

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It's the champion we have. As long as he has the kind of support he commands, it is simply not possible to make the case that another is clearly stronger.

Not advocating anything. Just reading the tea leaves.

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Well, I do not think he will be an issue by election time. He will have bigger issues to deal with.

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he will make those bigger issues THE issue, and they may well become a positive for him.

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Primary, yes. He may just have enough to win nomination. Win a General Election, he is done. GOP foolish hooking their wagon to a candidate no Dem, women or independent moderate would vote. Not only that, he guarantees record turnout for Dems. He is not a winning strategy for GOP.

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Pretty sure that's a good RDS campaign meme which probably isn't real-life true. To the extent that the political middle sees "dual standards of justice" as a serious issue (and by good margin they do), only Trump can fully exploit it.

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No, the GOP can exploit it. Haley, using it as an example of Dem over-reach. I think you are dead-on right.

Trump? I think Trump is distasteful to the point of them just not voting. Also the number of Dems voting will make the point moot. No way they let Trump win. Biden gets 100 million...

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That part in bold is the strongest case there is for Trump.

And there is wisdom in it. When your adversaries tell you what you cannot do, transgress immediately.
""If your opponent is of choleric temper, seek to irritate him."
--Sun Tzu

whiterock said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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whiterock said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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whiterock said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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whiterock said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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whiterock said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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whiterock said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Harrison Bergeron said:

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It's possible to both not like Trump and to not want to live in a Stalinist banana republic.

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I agree with you. I defended Trump and his criminal role for 6th issues, I do not believe he had direct culpability for that mess. I also thought the Jan 6th Coalition was ridiculous.

Here, we have a Special Counsel that got a Grand Jury indictment. This is a different animal than the other stuff.

Let me be clear, I don't like Trump, believe he is central to the rise of Biden and the destruction of America. Wish he would go back to reality TV. One dose from 2016-18 is enough Trump for me. The fact he won, represents all things wrong with our elections. Money andefia too much influence.

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one ******* is not the problem.

the reaction of institutions to that ******* is the problem.

once we tolerate that, then politics devolves to nothing more than an argument about the definition of *******s.

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The last real President was Bush 41. After that, it became this crap of demonizing the other side and one-up-man-ship. It started with Clinton and has continued, it is reaching a critical mass with Trump. We can't go on like this and HAVE to get back to running serious candidates or China will dominate us. Haley, DeSantis, Pompeo, Scott, and even Christie have serious experience governing. We need to get away from clowns like Trump.

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I agree it started with Clinton, but in other respects you are badly mis-assessing the situation.

We were in "normal politics" under Bush 41, politics where we broadly agreed on the purpose of government, the problems we faced, and primarily disagreed about the best ways to use government (or not) to solve the problems. To some degree, the Cold War forced that upon us. The divide did start with Clinton, who did indeed do things that had always been considered unacceptable - sex with interns in his office, multiple counts of obstruction & conspiracy. Then disbarred. Republicans were hardly unreasonable for impeaching him. But choosing the political route for defense, to ride it out, Democrats set in motion the post-modernist dynamic, betraying their true philosophical colors. Merit hierarchies be damned. It's all about power.

The problem has gotten worse with each successive admin. Dems made Bush 43 pay dearly. Then Obama engaged in purposefully divisive racial policies, and consolidated Democrat hold on governmental institutions by using Stimlus monies to build public sector unions as blue grassroots. Trump was a reaction to all that, and of course the reaction on him was Democrats dropping all pretenses about common good, embracing "regime politics" with gusto. Today, the two sides do not agree on the definitions of basic things, even what are boys and what are girls. And the left controls at least parts of most societal institutions, to include the federal bureaucracy, which is clearly being used to coerce compliance from the center and right portions of the spectrum. So we wildly disagree on the problems AND how to use government (or not) to solve them. We believe spending and the border and....so many things are literally "state sponsored chaos." Meanwhile, Dems are moving in to overdrive defining everything before it to be extirpated as either white supremacy or an existential threat to the climate.

All of that to say is, the "serious experience" argument, no matter how practical it might be, t is going to get drowned out by as an irrelevancy given the situation - we are in a defacto civil war. Conservatives are looking for someone to fight, no matter what, because they correctly perceive the consequences of NOT defending Trump - it will only ratify that Dems have the right to use their power to intimidate their political opponents.

This dynamic until one side gives up and the other one wins.

Wish it wasn't that way, but it is what it is. And I am frankly concerned that so many on the center right work so hard NOT to see it. Dems do not have that limitation. They are all in that they are surrounded by fascists and anything goes to destroy them.

outstanding article here, five years old now, current events proving it more prescient with each passing year.
https://imprimis.hillsdale.edu/americas-cold-civil-war/

---

I do agree with the fight, but I disagree with your choice of Champion. He does more damage, much of it self-inflicted, than forward the cause. Goldwater, Reagan, Bush, and even the Dems at least had real experience. Dislike him, but Clinton had real administrative skills. Obama had real oratory political skills. Bush 45 had real governing skills. We are not seeing that with Trump. He is a reality TV guy and media personality and acting like it. He is damaging the situation more than helping because he cannot win a General Election. He hasn't had a positive impact since 2016!

---

It's the champion we have. As long as he has the kind of support he commands, it is simply not possible to make the case that another is clearly stronger.

Not advocating anything. Just reading the tea leaves.

---

Well, I do not think he will be an issue by election time. He will have bigger issues to deal with.

---

he will make those bigger issues THE issue, and they may well become a positive for him.

---

Primary, yes. He may just have enough to win nomination. Win a General Election, he is done. GOP foolish hooking their wagon to a candidate no Dem, women or independent moderate would vote. Not only that, he guarantees record turnout for Dems. He is not a winning strategy for GOP.

---

Pretty sure that's a good RDS campaign meme which probably isn't real-life true. To the extent that the political middle sees "dual standards of justice" as a serious issue (and by good margin they do), only Trump can fully exploit it.

---

No, the GOP can exploit it. Haley, using it as an example of Dem over-reach. I think you are dead-on right.

Trump? I think Trump is distasteful to the point of them just not voting. Also the number of Dems voting will make the point moot. No way they let Trump win. Biden gets 100 million...

---

That part in bold is the strongest case there is for Trump.

And there is wisdom in it. When your adversaries tell you what you cannot do, transgress immediately.
""If your opponent is of choleric temper, seek to irritate him."
--Sun Tzu

---

There are more registered Dems (48 million to 36 million), if they get enough turnout there is nothing the GOP can do. You run Trump, you guarentee they all show up... Nothing nefarious about it. He is just that polarizing. Best thing GOP can do is run someone that the Dem's don't care. I think Haley fits that bill best

whiterock said:

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sombear said:

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The tea and every other leaf has him at 30% approval rating

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he's running neck & neck with Biden in that regard....

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yes, pathetic

sombear said:

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whiterock said:

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sombear said:

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The tea and every other leaf has him at 30% approval rating

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he's running neck & neck with Biden in that regard....

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yes, pathetic

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Might be time for a third party. Check out No Labels

• No Labels Nominates a Unity Ticket: Both parties keep forcing the American people down a road they don't want to go, and nominate candidates most Americans don't want to vote for. If this happens, and No Labels' polling and research show there is a path to victory for a unity ticket to win in the Electoral College, then we will offer our ballot line to a ticket.

https://2024.nolabels.org