Coke Bear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Realitybites said:

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"The canonization of the bible by the Catholic Church was just a recognition of what had already been deemed scripture by the first Christians."

If that's the case, why were protestant Bibles shortened to 66 books in the late 19th/early 20th century?

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Protestants didn't shorten the bible, if the bible should only contain books that were inspired scripture. They removed books in the Catholic Bible because that contained 7 deuterocanonical books that the Israelites did not believe were inspired scripture. Catholics themselves didn't even believe they were inspired canon. Jerome, the translator of the Septuagint into the Latin Vulgate (the Catholic Bible), didn't think they belonged in the bible, but he was pressured to translate it anyway, so he put in his prologue that these books were "apocryphal" and were not held by the Israelites to be inspired canon. Even the first (real) pope, Gregory I, didn't think they belonged. Catholics in the beginning didn't think those books were part of canon, until they formally included them in the bible in the mid 1400's, and that's only because they were responding to the Protestant Reformation, and needed some books that supported their theology. So, really, Protestants didn't shorten the bible, but rather it was Catholics who added to the bible.

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.....Jerome didn't want to include the deuterocanonical because he didn't find evidence that they were written in Hebrew. He was not "pressured" to include them. He obeyed the Church's request. As it turns out, we found Hebrew copies of Sirach, Tobit, and Baruch in the Dead Sea Scrolls.

The Essense's canon contained these books. And the the 46 books were all in the Septuagint. The Septuagint was quoted more than 300 times. While none of the deuterocanon was directly quoted, several illusions to Maccabees and others are found in the NT. The Septuagint is what Jesus and His apostles used.

The Church formally defined the canon at the Council of Trent in 1546 (not the 1400's - the Protestant Rebellion occurred in the 1500's with Luther, not before he was born.) The full canon (73 books) were ratified by the councils at Hippo (393), Carthage (397, 419), II Nicea (787), and Florence (1442) before they were again in 1546.

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It's not that Jerome didn't want to include the deuterocanonicals because they weren't written in Hebrew. He wasn't even supposed to be translating from Hebrew - he was commissioned to translate from the Greek Septuagint into Latin. He decided to switch over to translating from the Hebrew after discovering that the Greek text did not reflect accurately what was in the original Hebrew. Also, since he was living in Bethlehem when he was translating, he had direct access to Jewish scholars and people, and from them he learned that the deuterocanonicals weren't part of Hebrew scripture. So he rejected the idea that they belong in the bible, a postion he makes clear in his prologues and commentaries. But he "acquiesced" to Rome's demands and translated them anyway, though he did them hastily and at the end. After all, he'd be considered a heretic if he didn't, and he had Augustine already kinda doing that for translating from the Hebrew instead of Greek in the first place. So yes, I'd consider that being "pressured".

Coke Bear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Realitybites said:

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"The canonization of the bible by the Catholic Church was just a recognition of what had already been deemed scripture by the first Christians."

If that's the case, why were protestant Bibles shortened to 66 books in the late 19th/early 20th century?

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Protestants didn't shorten the bible, if the bible should only contain books that were inspired scripture. They removed books in the Catholic Bible because that contained 7 deuterocanonical books that the Israelites did not believe were inspired scripture. Catholics themselves didn't even believe they were inspired canon. Jerome, the translator of the Septuagint into the Latin Vulgate (the Catholic Bible), didn't think they belonged in the bible, but he was pressured to translate it anyway, so he put in his prologue that these books were "apocryphal" and were not held by the Israelites to be inspired canon. Even the first (real) pope, Gregory I, didn't think they belonged. Catholics in the beginning didn't think those books were part of canon, until they formally included them in the bible in the mid 1400's, and that's only because they were responding to the Protestant Reformation, and needed some books that supported their theology. So, really, Protestants didn't shorten the bible, but rather it was Catholics who added to the bible.

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....The Essense's canon contained these books. And the the 46 books were all in the Septuagint. The Septuagint was quoted more than 300 times. While none of the deuterocanon was directly quoted, several illusions to Maccabees and others are found in the NT. The Septuagint is what Jesus and His apostles used.

The Church formally defined the canon at the Council of Trent in 1546 (not the 1400's - the Protestant Rebellion occurred in the 1500's with Luther, not before he was born.) The full canon (73 books) were ratified by the councils at Hippo (393), Carthage (397, 419), II Nicea (787), and Florence (1442) before they were again in 1546.

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The fact that the Septuagint was quoted doesn't mean what you want it to mean. Though the Jews accepted and used the Septuagint, it does not mean they made no distinctions between the canonical and non-canonical within it. Quoting from one part of the Septuagint can't be taken as an endorsement of all the books contained therein. Especially since the evidence shows that the Jews did not consider the deuterocanonicals as part of their Hebrew canon, which is supported by the fact that Jesus and his apostles never quoted them.

The "1400's" comment was a typo that I missed. I have been very busy lately and have rushed through many of my responses. I am well aware of the time period of the Reformation and Trent.

Realitybites said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Praying to saints or to Mary means you believe they can hear your thoughts and prayers, a capacity only of the divine. Nowhere in scripture are we told to spiritually communicate with any entity except God/Jesus alone. The belief that Mary and saints have a level of omniscience and power that allows them to hear and accept prayers, and can effect results and blessings, and that each saint has "jurisdiction" over certain areas (healing, protection, fertility) is the same thing that the pagan world believed in their idols. How do you even know if these people are truly in heaven? Only God knows that. What if you're praying to someone in hell?

Making supplications via spiritual communication to any entity other than God is idolatry. Prayer is a form of worship. The practice is NOT taught by Jesus or his disciples, or believed and practiced by the early Christians. Nowhere in scripture is prayer to Mary or saints supported. Follow the infallible Word of God, not the fallible traditions of man.

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I understand that you're sincere in your belief, but your belief is based on multiple erroneous assumptions.

(1) That the Bible describes the maximal extent of religious involvement for the believer, often with reference to something like 2 Tim 3:16-17. Such a view of the Bible inevitably leads one to believe that anything that isn't specifically expressly condoned by the Bible is forbidden. However, you're reading into that verse. The text says that all scripture, not only scripture. Such a view is also easily refuted by verses like 1st Corinthians 10:23, John 21:25 and 2nd Thessalonians 2:15.

(2) That the Christians of previous generations are dead and less aware than we are. This is refuted by verses like Hebrews 12:1 and John 11:26.

It sounds as if you are dismissing the practice of asking the saints for intercessory prayer as necromancy. It most certainly isn't. When the Bible mentions necromancy, it condemns the practice of conjuring up the dead, as Saul did through the witch of Endor in 1 Samuel 28. When Jesus spoke with Moses and Elijah during the Transfiguration, this was not necromancy. We've already seen in point 2 above that those we are asking for prayer are no less alive than Bubba sitting at the end of the pew. When David asked the angels of heaven to bless the Lord, this also was not offensive to God (Ps.103:2021). Likewise, when a Christian asks a Christian from a previous generation to pray for him, he is not conjuring up a spirit from Hades in order to acquire secret knowledge. After all, those in heaven are "like the angels," and are more alive than we are, since the Lord is "not God of the dead, but of the living" (Luke 20:3638). So, if it does not offend God when a Christian says "St. Mary, pray for me," we should all rejoice that God has given us the gift of Christians praying for us free from the boundaries of space and time.

Lets bring that theory a bit closer. Say you knew your grandmother and knew that she was a devout Christian. You asked her to pray for you while she was with you. If you stop asking her to pray for you when she has reposed, what does that say about your faith or lack thereof?

Now there are certain issues in the Roman Catholic interpretation of Saint Mary (Co-redemptrix and her "immaculate conception" being the chief among them). But honoring her is doing no less than God the Father did, and asking her to pray for us is no different than asking a family member to do so...because after all, she is a family member.

While the Bible is very important for the Christian faith, it is in large part a work of history, doctrine, and prophecy - not practice. For example, the Bible tells you that you should fast, but it doesn't say anything about when, how long, or what to abstain from. Did a God who accepted the sacrifice of Abel and rejected the sacrifice of Cain leave us completely without guidance? Should the fact that the first Christians fasted on Wednesday (the day of the week Judas betrayed Christ) and Friday (the day of the week that Christ was crucified) guide our practice today or are we free agents of the second millenium free to invent whatever we want?

Many of those details are found in a much older work, the "Didache", which was the primary guide for Christian living in the first several hundred years of Christianity when what constituted the Bible had not yet been formalized. You can make a circumstantial case against abortion from the Bible certainly, but it is the Didache that comes out and forbids it.

Certainly for the first millenium and a half of Christianity prior to the Gutenberg press, the Bible was not easily obtainable to the lay person. Prior to 1900ish Bibles didn't have 66 books. This was revised downward to 66 around the dawning of the 16th-20th. This history alone makes a pretty poor backdrop for sola scriptura as the scriptura you're referencing only has between a 100-400 year history depending on what you use as the cutoff point.

When we practice Christianity, it is important that we practice the faith once delivered to the saints which exists to this day...not some modernist reinterpretation of a 2000 year old work (and this applies equally to Evangelicals, Protestants, and Roman Catholics).

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- If we're going to parse 2 Timothy 3:16, then let's read it carefully: "All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.". If it makes us complete, then this would seem to indicate that only scripture is sufficient. There is no need for anything else outside of Scripture, like tradition.

- How do Hebrews 12:1 and John 11:26 mean that saints in heaven have the capacity to hear our prayers directed to them? This seems like faulty, perhaps even disingenuous exegesis and eisegesis.

- You are attributing departed people who are in heaven with the capacity to not only receive spiritual communication via prayer, but also the ability to carry out your request. We know by direct revelation from God that Jesus is capable of these things, so we pray to him. By what revelation from God do we know departed saints have these attributes? How do you know that certain saints are truly in heaven to begin with? By what revelation?

- "When we practice Christianity, it is important that we practice the faith once delivered to the saints which exists to this day..." - did this practice of praying to Mary and the saints originate from Jesus and his apostles, i.e. apostolic tradition? If it didn't, then based on what new revelation from God outside of Jesus did it begin?

curtpenn said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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curtpenn said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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curtpenn said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Coke Bear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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You are not to determine someone's heart when they pray, sure....but what if they're praying not to God, but to someone else? Can you not discern the idolatry in that?

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At this point, I and others have stated many times that praying does NOT equal worshiping. To pray means to ask. Please substitute "pray" for "ask for intercession." After this many times of being told the same thing, this is disrespectful and rude. Quite frankly, there may be no need to continue the conversation if you are not willing to meet us on this point, I'm done with this discussion.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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When a Catholic prays the rosary, they are praying to Mary, not God. For every one praise of God in the rosary, there are TEN praises to Mary. Even the beads they use have pagan roots. They are used to keep track of the number of prayer repetitions. Jesus himself told us to not use vain repetitions when we pray, as the pagans do (Matthew 6:7). They are directly disobeying Jesus. They are also calling Mary "our life" and "our hope", and refer to her as "holy queen". There is a "Queen of Heaven" in the bible, and it's a pagan goddess. If someone does these things, how can their "heart" be anything else but idolatrous? If it's not at least your tenth thought, then there is truly something wrong with your discernment, if you are a believer.

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Quite frankly, I expected better from you on this. You possess a great deal of knowledge and to resort to this sophomoric claims that I would expect from a small town Baptist preacher that doesn't know any better. These statements of "beads of pagan roots" and "repetition of prayers" are almost embarrassing for you.

I'll address Matthew 6:7 to help others better understand. Jesus, in Matthew 26:44:

So, leaving them again, he went away and prayed for the third time, saying the same words again.

Whoa, Jesus is repeating prayers. He must not have read what he said in Matt 6:7

In Thessalonians 5:17 - St. Paul urges us to "Pray without ceasing."

Same thing, maybe Paul was still blind and couldn't read Matt 6:7.

In Rev 4:8, Each of the four living creatures had six wings and was covered with eyes all around, even under its wings. Day and night they never stop saying: "'Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty,'

The angels here have no excuses. They have eyes all around, they should have most certainly read Matthew 6;7.

Maybe there's a logical explanation. In Matthew 6:7, Jesus is addressing the pagans that believed that they could wear down there gods like in 1 Kings 18 when the worshipers of Baal tried to call down fire when their babbling of prayers.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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There is so much about praying the rosary that is at the very least unscriptural, if not outright pagan idolatry. You aren't "judging" them by discerning this. If you are a believer in Jesus, then you should tell these people the truth, not out of "judgement" but to warn them.

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Do you even know what the rosary is? Seriously. Once again, I would have expected you to at least understand what the rosary is comprised of if you were going to comment about it so authoritatively.

The rosary stated around the 12th century. The monks and other religious would memorize and pray all 150 of the Psalms. Of course, most lay people could not read, some pious people would repeat the Our Father "Pater Nostra" 150 times like the monks prayed the Psalms.

Traditions states that sometime around the 14th century, our Blessed Mother appeared to St. Dominic and gave him the structure of the rosary. The beginning of each rosary starts with the Apostle's Creed, an Our Father, 3 Hail Mary's (for an increase for the virtues of Faith, Hope, and Love), and a Glory Be prayer. Next 5 decades of Hail Mary's are prayed.

Now each rosary covers a specific mystery. The three original mysteries are the Glorious, Joyful, and the Sorrowful mysteries. Today is Friday. Most Catholic pray the Sorrowful mysteries on Fridays. (It's my favorite mystery.)

The Sorrowful first decade is the Agony in the Garden. We say an Our Father followed by 10 Hail Mary's. While saying these prayers, we contemplate on Jesus' suffering in the Garden of Gethsemane.
The Sorrowful second decade is the Scourging at the pillar, preceded by the Our Father followed by another decade. We dwell upon his brutal scouring which according to the the Shroud of Turin, 120 lashes with a Roman flagellum.
Third Sorrowful mystery is the Crowning of Thorns: Our Father, decade, and the contemplation of the spitting, punching, mocking, and pressing or beating the CAP of thorns onto Christ's head.
4th Sorrowful mystery is the Carrying of the Cross on the Via De La Rosa. Another Our Father, decade with the imagining of what it was like to carry a nearly 100 lb beam of wood for nearly a mile up hill to Golgatha. He fell three times. It's possible the third fall dislocated his shoulder, nearly paralyzing necessitating Simon of Cyrene carrying his cross.
5th Sorrowful mystery - Our Father, final decade while praying about the excruciating pain of having a nail driven thru the median nerve of the wrist and feet. The cruciform position of the body making exhaling extremely painful to the point where the lungs fill up with fluid and the heart gives out.

Finally we finish the rosary with a Glory Be.

When the monks and others replaced the 150 Psalms with 153 Hail Mary's (50 from each mystery (Sorrowful, Joyful, and Glorious). This allowed them to contemplate on the life of Jesus rather than just the Psalms.

The rosary is "scripture (Jesus's life) on a rope".

Anyone can pray the rosary. Not just Catholics. It's a universal prayer dwelling on the life of Jesus.

Our Easter Rite Catholics implore the Jesus prayer. "Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner." They repeat this with their breathing. {inhale]"Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God," {exhale} "have mercy on me, a sinner." I do this every day for a bit. It's very peaceful. I try to remember to do this when I approach the altar for the Eucharist every Sunday and Friday.

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You don't read and apply scripture with sound reasoning and in good faith. Do you honestly not see the difference between Jesus imploring God from his heart multiple times in separate prayers to deliver him from the unbelievable amount of suffering he was to face, and Catholics ritualistically repeating pre-written and memorized phrases over and over in succession and a set number of times in the same prayer? If you're really in anguish, or in dire need, naturally it's going to lead you to ask God multiple times throughout the day for help, which is going to mean using the same words and phrases. This is NOT the same thing as ritualistically repeating a the same words and phrases in a set prayer one has memorized, and doing it over and over again a set number of times in the same sitting. This isn't a special, unique prayer that comes from the individual heart. This is corporate religiosity. Which do you think God really wants?

And Jesus didn't repeat the same words over and over in the same sitting. He made multiple separate prayers, but he said them in different ways: "And going a little farther he fell on his face and prayed, saying, "My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as you will."....... Again, for the second time, he went away and prayed, "My Father, if this cannot pass unless I drink it, your will be done."......So, leaving them again, he went away and prayed for the third time, saying the same words again."

When it says Jesus "said the same words again", it doesn't mean that he repeated the same phrase he had been saying, it just means he made the same request of God again, as he had done the previous two times.

And how does "pray without ceasing" mean ritualistically repeating the same words and phrases over and over again? This is yet again an example of interpreting scripture in bad faith in order to defend one's belief and practice.

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That you accuse Coke Bear of acting in bad faith really makes my blood boil and makes me wish I could reach through this screen and jerk a knot in your tail. You are fortunate to be able to function anonymously behind a keyboard. Sorry (sort of) if this isn't very Christ-like, but there it is. I will ask for forgiveness. You should do likewise.

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I really don't think your blood is boiling against me. It's really against the truth that I'm saying. You hate it, and you can't argue against it. I don't doubt you'd want to hurt me if we were having this discussion face to face. You are being led by the spirit of the god of this world, which is hostile to the truth of Jesus and his true gospel.

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You are a liar in league with the father of lies. Your "truth" is nothing but slander and falsehoods built on your own titanic hubris. The stench of your fundamentalist self righteousness permeates every post. Does it upset me that you dare accuse good people here who are serious about their faith in Christ? Damn right it does. That you can't see that your specious accusations of "bad faith" are completely false tells us all we need to know about you,
your critical thinking skills, and your version of Christianity. Jesus wept…

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What makes me a "liar in league with the father of lies"? You haven't made an argument against the truth I've said. Rather, you just found it more convenient to call me a liar without critical thinking skills than actually demonstrate it.

Those who are in league with the "father of lies" are those who promote unbiblical beliefs and practices, especially the ones that involve a false gospel, and stealing the glory, honor, and praise from God/Jesus and giving them to someone else. The "father of lies" is the one who led you to believe that it is being a "Pharisee" to believe that we should only put our hope of eternal salvation on Jesus, and not on anyone else, which is what Christianity is. He is the one that led you to follow beliefs and practices that are deeply rooted in Roman paganism. He is the one that led you to think that believing that saints can hear our prayers is on level with the belief that Jesus can hear our prayers. And he is the one who led you to childishly threaten someone on the internet simply because he was telling the truth.

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Here's a direct quote from one of your previous posts:

"But you are making the positive assertion that prayer to Mary and the saints was taught, believed, and practiced by Jesus, his apostles, or the first Christians".

This is a lie that you have never manned up and owned. In the same way you lie every time you accused me and others of acting, to use your repeated phrase, "in bad faith". That is a total lie.

You lie when you accuse me and others here of doing anything other than putting "our hope of eternal salvation on Jesus".

You lie when you claim the father of lies "led you to follow beliefs and practices that are deeply rooted in Roman paganism". Still waiting for your answer about your personal household Christmas and Easter practices, btw. Hypocrite.

You lie when you claim the father of lies "is the one that led you to think that believing that saints can hear our prayers is on level with the belief that Jesus can hear our prayers".

You lie when you equate invoking the saints with "praying to" Jesus or God. These things are not the same.

You lie when spew your nonsense that you are not being divisive contra the will of Jesus that his followers be one.

You are a liar straight from the Father of Lies. Quod erat demonstrandum.

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Yeah, none of these are lies. Do you know what a lie is?

I must have missed your question about Christmas and Easter. I celebrate Christmas as a secular holiday, given that Jesus wasn't really born on that day, and that it has pagan roots. I celebrate not Easter, but Good Friday and "Resurrection Sunday". But here's the deal - I don't fault anyone who celebrates Christmas as the birthday of Jesus, or Easter as the day he was resurrected, because despite the pagan roots behind these days, at least they are turning these days into days to give all the glory, honor, and praise to Jesus. However, those who follow the pagan roots of saint prayer and worship, are NOT turning it into something that gives all the glory and praise to Jesus, but rather, they're apportioning it out to saints. You see the difference?

Here's the bottom line. The one who is in league with the father of lies, would be one who believed it is being a "Pharisee" to suggest that Christians should only put their hope of eternal salvation on Jesus. Also, it is the one who saw no problem with prayers to Mary that elevated her to the level of Jesus which is clearly heretical and idolatrous. In fact, you defended them. And it is the one who threatened another person on the internet just for telling the truth. These are your fruits. "You shall know them by their fruits."

Coke Bear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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You don't read and apply scripture with sound reasoning and in good faith. Do you honestly not see the difference between Jesus imploring God from his heart multiple times in separate prayers to deliver him from the unbelievable amount of suffering he was to face, and Catholics ritualistically repeating pre-written and memorized phrases over and over in succession and a set number of times in the same prayer? If you're really in anguish, or in dire need, naturally it's going to lead you to ask God multiple times throughout the day for help, which is going to mean using the same words and phrases. This is NOT the same thing as ritualistically repeating a the same words and phrases in a set prayer one has memorized, and doing it over and over again a set number of times in the same sitting. This isn't a special, unique prayer that comes from the individual heart. This is corporate religiosity. Which do you think God really wants?

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I'm not sure that you properly understand what is happening when one prays the rosary. We are citing prayers, based on scripture (OF and HM) while meditating on the life of Christ. The decade of HM's gives us time to reflect on those divine mysteries. While saying the HM's, I imagine myself viewing the events from different viewpoints. This is true contemplation. The repeating of the (scripturally-based) prayers is merely marking time.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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When it says Jesus "said the same words again", it doesn't mean that he repeated the same phrase he had been saying, it just means he made the same request of God again, as he had done the previous two times.

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This is just your opinion. It clearly states that he is saying the same words again. I have no problem with repeating wording in the prayer. Psalms is replete with this. Psalm 136 repeats the phrase, O give thanks to the Lord, for he is good, for his steadfast love endures forever," 26 times.

The "vain repetitions" in Matthew 6:7 comes from the Greek, "battalogesete " which means empty phrases. He was addressing the Gentile prayers that were offered not with expression of love for or trust in God.

To further illustrate my point, one could accuse Protestants of vain repetition when they sing songs like:

I Will Praise Him/Jesus Paid It All
Amazing Grace
How Great Thou Art
Near To The Heart Of God

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- Jesus repeated the same prayer, because he was making the same request multiple times. This was not a ritualistic chant of the same memorized words over and over. To say this is the same thing as what Catholics do during the rosary is absurd.

- prayer beads have pagan roots. They were used first by Hindus I believe, then Buddhists, Muslims, and even Wiccans. They were used to keep track of the number of repeated chants, just like how it's used for the rosary.

- many Psalms were hymns. Hymns, songs characteristically have repeated phrases. Jesus wasn't talking about hymns and songs, he was talking about prayer.

- I agree that what's in your heart is what counts. But the practice of repeating memorized phrases and chanting them over and over ritualistically a set number of times is not what God wants. He wants what comes from your heart, YOUR words, your thoughts. Not repetitions of memorized phrases. That's what Jesus was telling us.

You pass a lot of opinion off as "What God/Jesus wants/means"

Fre3dombear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Of course I agree with Bishop Strickland here, and am thankful for Catholics standing up for Christian principles.

But it isn't very "Christian" for Catholics to rely not on Jesus Christ, but rather....Mary:

Thank you brothers. Our power is…”Hail Mary full of grace…” https://t.co/ycfPjFi6Z2

— Bishop J. Strickland (@Bishopoftyler) June 27, 2023

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Huh?

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Do you not see the problem in what he said there? If you don't, and you are Catholic, then that is precisely the problem I'm addressing.

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Your issue is he said the Hail Mary?

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Are you being disingenuous or can you not read?

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I posed the question in response to you. Do with it what you will. Matters not to me

I'll ask Mary to pray for you

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Act disingenuously, but it's the other guy with the problem, and he needs prayer. Sheesh.

90sBear said:

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You pass a lot of opinion off as "What God/Jesus wants/means"

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Is it not opinion fairly deduced from scripture? If not, why do you disagree? Do you believe God does NOT want our own thoughts and words in prayer?

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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90sBear said:

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You pass a lot of opinion off as "What God/Jesus wants/means"

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Is it not opinion fairly deduced from scripture? If not, why do you disagree? Do you believe God does NOT want our own thoughts and words in prayer?

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1) Two different people can "fairly deduce" a topic and come to different conclusions. Without clear facts in place, no way to know if one is right, both are right, neither are right, or a mix of both.

Fact: You don't know what or exactly how Jesus prayed in the Garden and to claim you do or can pass judgment on someone who reads that passage differently and tell them they are wrong is really arrogant.

2) God wants our prayers. Jesus said to pray the Lord's Prayer. So going by that I could "fairly deduce" that's all I ever need to or should say and that you are wrong.
"This, then, is how you should pray…" is a clear direct instruction.

Or….I could be more reasonable and say that people pray differently and many people include Psalms or songs as prayers and as long as they aren't expressly heretical or only pray to God like He's Santa Claus it's not my place to say they are wrong.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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curtpenn said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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curtpenn said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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curtpenn said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Coke Bear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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You are not to determine someone's heart when they pray, sure....but what if they're praying not to God, but to someone else? Can you not discern the idolatry in that?

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At this point, I and others have stated many times that praying does NOT equal worshiping. To pray means to ask. Please substitute "pray" for "ask for intercession." After this many times of being told the same thing, this is disrespectful and rude. Quite frankly, there may be no need to continue the conversation if you are not willing to meet us on this point, I'm done with this discussion.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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When a Catholic prays the rosary, they are praying to Mary, not God. For every one praise of God in the rosary, there are TEN praises to Mary. Even the beads they use have pagan roots. They are used to keep track of the number of prayer repetitions. Jesus himself told us to not use vain repetitions when we pray, as the pagans do (Matthew 6:7). They are directly disobeying Jesus. They are also calling Mary "our life" and "our hope", and refer to her as "holy queen". There is a "Queen of Heaven" in the bible, and it's a pagan goddess. If someone does these things, how can their "heart" be anything else but idolatrous? If it's not at least your tenth thought, then there is truly something wrong with your discernment, if you are a believer.

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Quite frankly, I expected better from you on this. You possess a great deal of knowledge and to resort to this sophomoric claims that I would expect from a small town Baptist preacher that doesn't know any better. These statements of "beads of pagan roots" and "repetition of prayers" are almost embarrassing for you.

I'll address Matthew 6:7 to help others better understand. Jesus, in Matthew 26:44:

So, leaving them again, he went away and prayed for the third time, saying the same words again.

Whoa, Jesus is repeating prayers. He must not have read what he said in Matt 6:7

In Thessalonians 5:17 - St. Paul urges us to "Pray without ceasing."

Same thing, maybe Paul was still blind and couldn't read Matt 6:7.

In Rev 4:8, Each of the four living creatures had six wings and was covered with eyes all around, even under its wings. Day and night they never stop saying: "'Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty,'

The angels here have no excuses. They have eyes all around, they should have most certainly read Matthew 6;7.

Maybe there's a logical explanation. In Matthew 6:7, Jesus is addressing the pagans that believed that they could wear down there gods like in 1 Kings 18 when the worshipers of Baal tried to call down fire when their babbling of prayers.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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There is so much about praying the rosary that is at the very least unscriptural, if not outright pagan idolatry. You aren't "judging" them by discerning this. If you are a believer in Jesus, then you should tell these people the truth, not out of "judgement" but to warn them.

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Do you even know what the rosary is? Seriously. Once again, I would have expected you to at least understand what the rosary is comprised of if you were going to comment about it so authoritatively.

The rosary stated around the 12th century. The monks and other religious would memorize and pray all 150 of the Psalms. Of course, most lay people could not read, some pious people would repeat the Our Father "Pater Nostra" 150 times like the monks prayed the Psalms.

Traditions states that sometime around the 14th century, our Blessed Mother appeared to St. Dominic and gave him the structure of the rosary. The beginning of each rosary starts with the Apostle's Creed, an Our Father, 3 Hail Mary's (for an increase for the virtues of Faith, Hope, and Love), and a Glory Be prayer. Next 5 decades of Hail Mary's are prayed.

Now each rosary covers a specific mystery. The three original mysteries are the Glorious, Joyful, and the Sorrowful mysteries. Today is Friday. Most Catholic pray the Sorrowful mysteries on Fridays. (It's my favorite mystery.)

The Sorrowful first decade is the Agony in the Garden. We say an Our Father followed by 10 Hail Mary's. While saying these prayers, we contemplate on Jesus' suffering in the Garden of Gethsemane.
The Sorrowful second decade is the Scourging at the pillar, preceded by the Our Father followed by another decade. We dwell upon his brutal scouring which according to the the Shroud of Turin, 120 lashes with a Roman flagellum.
Third Sorrowful mystery is the Crowning of Thorns: Our Father, decade, and the contemplation of the spitting, punching, mocking, and pressing or beating the CAP of thorns onto Christ's head.
4th Sorrowful mystery is the Carrying of the Cross on the Via De La Rosa. Another Our Father, decade with the imagining of what it was like to carry a nearly 100 lb beam of wood for nearly a mile up hill to Golgatha. He fell three times. It's possible the third fall dislocated his shoulder, nearly paralyzing necessitating Simon of Cyrene carrying his cross.
5th Sorrowful mystery - Our Father, final decade while praying about the excruciating pain of having a nail driven thru the median nerve of the wrist and feet. The cruciform position of the body making exhaling extremely painful to the point where the lungs fill up with fluid and the heart gives out.

Finally we finish the rosary with a Glory Be.

When the monks and others replaced the 150 Psalms with 153 Hail Mary's (50 from each mystery (Sorrowful, Joyful, and Glorious). This allowed them to contemplate on the life of Jesus rather than just the Psalms.

The rosary is "scripture (Jesus's life) on a rope".

Anyone can pray the rosary. Not just Catholics. It's a universal prayer dwelling on the life of Jesus.

Our Easter Rite Catholics implore the Jesus prayer. "Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner." They repeat this with their breathing. {inhale]"Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God," {exhale} "have mercy on me, a sinner." I do this every day for a bit. It's very peaceful. I try to remember to do this when I approach the altar for the Eucharist every Sunday and Friday.

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You don't read and apply scripture with sound reasoning and in good faith. Do you honestly not see the difference between Jesus imploring God from his heart multiple times in separate prayers to deliver him from the unbelievable amount of suffering he was to face, and Catholics ritualistically repeating pre-written and memorized phrases over and over in succession and a set number of times in the same prayer? If you're really in anguish, or in dire need, naturally it's going to lead you to ask God multiple times throughout the day for help, which is going to mean using the same words and phrases. This is NOT the same thing as ritualistically repeating a the same words and phrases in a set prayer one has memorized, and doing it over and over again a set number of times in the same sitting. This isn't a special, unique prayer that comes from the individual heart. This is corporate religiosity. Which do you think God really wants?

And Jesus didn't repeat the same words over and over in the same sitting. He made multiple separate prayers, but he said them in different ways: "And going a little farther he fell on his face and prayed, saying, "My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as you will."....... Again, for the second time, he went away and prayed, "My Father, if this cannot pass unless I drink it, your will be done."......So, leaving them again, he went away and prayed for the third time, saying the same words again."

When it says Jesus "said the same words again", it doesn't mean that he repeated the same phrase he had been saying, it just means he made the same request of God again, as he had done the previous two times.

And how does "pray without ceasing" mean ritualistically repeating the same words and phrases over and over again? This is yet again an example of interpreting scripture in bad faith in order to defend one's belief and practice.

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That you accuse Coke Bear of acting in bad faith really makes my blood boil and makes me wish I could reach through this screen and jerk a knot in your tail. You are fortunate to be able to function anonymously behind a keyboard. Sorry (sort of) if this isn't very Christ-like, but there it is. I will ask for forgiveness. You should do likewise.

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I really don't think your blood is boiling against me. It's really against the truth that I'm saying. You hate it, and you can't argue against it. I don't doubt you'd want to hurt me if we were having this discussion face to face. You are being led by the spirit of the god of this world, which is hostile to the truth of Jesus and his true gospel.

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You are a liar in league with the father of lies. Your "truth" is nothing but slander and falsehoods built on your own titanic hubris. The stench of your fundamentalist self righteousness permeates every post. Does it upset me that you dare accuse good people here who are serious about their faith in Christ? Damn right it does. That you can't see that your specious accusations of "bad faith" are completely false tells us all we need to know about you,
your critical thinking skills, and your version of Christianity. Jesus wept…

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What makes me a "liar in league with the father of lies"? You haven't made an argument against the truth I've said. Rather, you just found it more convenient to call me a liar without critical thinking skills than actually demonstrate it.

Those who are in league with the "father of lies" are those who promote unbiblical beliefs and practices, especially the ones that involve a false gospel, and stealing the glory, honor, and praise from God/Jesus and giving them to someone else. The "father of lies" is the one who led you to believe that it is being a "Pharisee" to believe that we should only put our hope of eternal salvation on Jesus, and not on anyone else, which is what Christianity is. He is the one that led you to follow beliefs and practices that are deeply rooted in Roman paganism. He is the one that led you to think that believing that saints can hear our prayers is on level with the belief that Jesus can hear our prayers. And he is the one who led you to childishly threaten someone on the internet simply because he was telling the truth.

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Here's a direct quote from one of your previous posts:

"But you are making the positive assertion that prayer to Mary and the saints was taught, believed, and practiced by Jesus, his apostles, or the first Christians".

This is a lie that you have never manned up and owned. In the same way you lie every time you accused me and others of acting, to use your repeated phrase, "in bad faith". That is a total lie.

You lie when you accuse me and others here of doing anything other than putting "our hope of eternal salvation on Jesus".

You lie when you claim the father of lies "led you to follow beliefs and practices that are deeply rooted in Roman paganism". Still waiting for your answer about your personal household Christmas and Easter practices, btw. Hypocrite.

You lie when you claim the father of lies "is the one that led you to think that believing that saints can hear our prayers is on level with the belief that Jesus can hear our prayers".

You lie when you equate invoking the saints with "praying to" Jesus or God. These things are not the same.

You lie when spew your nonsense that you are not being divisive contra the will of Jesus that his followers be one.

You are a liar straight from the Father of Lies. Quod erat demonstrandum.

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Yeah, none of these are lies. Do you know what a lie is? - You start off with a lie right there. How typical.

Try this one again, liar:

Here's a direct quote from one of your previous posts:


"But you are making the positive assertion that prayer to Mary and the saints was taught, believed, and practiced by Jesus, his apostles, or the first Christians".

I've confronted you multiple times with this lie and you completely gloss over or ignore it. Typical from you when confronted with your own lies.

I must have missed your question about Christmas and Easter. I celebrate Christmas as a secular holiday, given that Jesus wasn't really born on that day, and that it has pagan roots. I celebrate not Easter, but Good Friday and "Resurrection Sunday". But here's the deal - I don't fault anyone who celebrates Christmas as the birthday of Jesus, or Easter as the day he was resurrected, because despite the pagan roots behind these days, at least they are turning these days into days to give all the glory, honor, and praise to Jesus. However, those who follow the pagan roots of saint prayer and worship, are NOT turning it into something that gives all the glory and praise to Jesus, but rather, they're apportioning it out to saints. You see the difference? -You missed the point again. You claim some things have pagan origins and are to be shunned and I asked if you did things such as have a Christmas Tree, exchange gifts, or dye Easter eggs and you just deflect again - another lie from you. Asking for intercession IS NOT turning anything into something that denies all the glory and praise to Jesus, liar. You obviously won't see the difference. Satan smiles upon you.

Here's the bottom line. The one who is in league with the father of lies, would be one who believed it is being a "Pharisee" to suggest that Christians should only put their hope of eternal salvation on Jesus. Also, it is the one who saw no problem with prayers to Mary that elevated her to the level of Jesus which is clearly heretical and idolatrous. In fact, you defended them. And it is the one who threatened another person on the internet just for telling the truth. These are your fruits. "You shall know them by their fruits." - Here's the bottom line: No one here has suggested they believe in any other means of salvation than Jesus. I actually provided context laying out Roman resistance to ONE prayer that you cling to as if your own salvation depended upon it. I suggested one phrase from that particular prayer could be interpreted differently. You in your overblown self righteousness created a straw man typical and worthy of any Pharisee sitting in judgment on the beliefs and opinions of others.

You are what your actions and words say you are. Own it, liar. What are your fruits here? Is Jesus pleased with you, do you think?

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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If we're going to parse 2 Timothy 3:16, then let's read it carefully: "All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.". If it makes us complete, then this would seem to indicate that only scripture is sufficient. There is no need for anything else outside of Scripture, like tradition.

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Please note that is does NOT say that "ONLY scripture is God breathed"

One still has to ask, who determined what the scriptures were? It was the Catholic Church that discussed which writings were scripture.

Finally, nearly half the books of the NT (11 of them) were written after 1 Timothy. Should we include these.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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- You are attributing departed people who are in heaven with the capacity to not only receive spiritual communication via prayer, but also the ability to carry out your request. We know by direct revelation from God that Jesus is capable of these things, so we pray to him. By what revelation from God do we know departed saints have these attributes?

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I have stated MANY times, but you refuse to acknowledge, that the saints in heaven do NOT have the ability to perform miracles. All they do is present our prayers to God (and worship Him, of course.) Please quite stating this falsehood. James 5:16:

"The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much" No one is more righteous than those in heaven.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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How do you know that certain saints are truly in heaven to begin with? By what revelation?

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We know Mary is in Heaven. She's depicted there in Revelation. Even if you deny that depiction, I'd like to find a person who denies that the Mother of God in not in heaven.

As stated before, today we know that a person is in heaven when they have two miracles attributed to their intercession. One can easily look up these accounts of Mother Teresa, Pope JPII, Padre Pio, Fr. Maximilian Kolbe, etc.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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- "When we practice Christianity, it is important that we practice the faith once delivered to the saints which exists to this day..." - did this practice of praying to Mary and the saints originate from Jesus and his apostles, i.e. apostolic tradition? If it didn't, then based on what new revelation from God outside of Jesus did it begin?

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This is a illogical question. It's like asking "if God can make a square circle." NO one was in heaven until Jesus' resurrection. They could NOT have asked for anyone's intercession. It wasn't until the Church had great martyrs like, Justin Martyr (how did his parent's know - just kidding), Ignatius of Antioch, Polycarp, Perpetua and Felicity, etc.o

Fre3dombear said:

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I'd suggest reading The Early Church was the Catholic Church

It will probably help clear up a lot of confusion

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There is no question that the early Church was the Catholic Church.

However, the early Church was not the Roman Catholic Church.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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- prayer beads have pagan roots. They were used first by Hindus I believe, then Buddhists, Muslims, and even Wiccans. They were used to keep track of the number of repeated chants, just like how it's used for the rosary.

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This sadly, is another one of your Protestant tropes that you have begun to stoop to. You are better than this. Seriously. Even if something has root's in paganism, it doesn't mean that it can be baptized and used for Christianity. Heck, look what Atheists and Satanist have done with Christian symbols. Look what the LGQT+ movement has done with the rainbow.

Christianity and "prayer beads" pre-date all but Hindu. Let's play hypothetically for a moment and state that Catholic culturally appropriated the concept of prayer beads from Hindu's. So what? Hindus were offering prayers to their God. That's not a bad thing. Catholics use "prayer beads" to pray to their God. Seriously, is that bad? I rarely use a rosary. I use my fingers to prayer the rosary to God. I'm I a pagan for using my 10 fingers? All pagans have fingers.

Final note on this silly topic ... curtpenn listed many items that have roots in paganism. I'll list a few of them again: Christmas trees, wedding bands, and coffee (from the Muslims). Does your family use those items?

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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- many Psalms were hymns. Hymns, songs characteristically have repeated phrases. Jesus wasn't talking about hymns and songs, he was talking about prayer.

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This is just silly. Hymns and songs are prayers. St. Augustine was right"he who sings prays twice."

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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- I agree that what's in your heart is what counts. But the practice of repeating memorized phrases and chanting them over and over ritualistically a set number of times is not what God wants. He wants what comes from your heart, YOUR words, your thoughts. Not repetitions of memorized phrases. That's what Jesus was telling us.

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Now you're telling us that you KNOW exactly what Jesus and God want. That's pretty bold.

When Catholics pray the rosary, we are praying from the heart in our mediations about the life of Christ. Are you telling me that you know what's in the hearts of Catholics as they pray the rosary? Do you have some omniscient psychic powers. BOLD and PSYCHIC are you!

Where does it say in the bible to "Pray from the Heart"?

Final point on this, please don't pretend that all Protestant prayer isn't the same. Please allow me to demonstrate...

Quote:

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Dear Heavenly Father. You are infinitely benevolent, merciful, and just. We praise you and thank you for all those here with us today. Dear Father, we thank for the rich blessings that you have showered upon us.

LORD, we ask for (insert supplications here with flowery adverbs and adjectives).

In Jesus name we pray, Amen.

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They are ALL the same. There is NOTHING wrong with that. They are beautiful and God here's them all. But that's not the only way to pray.

Jesus also gave us the MOST perfect prayer ever, in Matt 6:7. I'm guessing it's OK to repeat that prayer.

Realitybites said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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I'd suggest reading The Early Church was the Catholic Church

It will probably help clear up a lot of confusion

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There is no question that the early Church was the Catholic Church.

However, the early Church was not the Roman Catholic Church.

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Please expound. I'm confused except for the fact that this is no formal "Roman" Catholic Church.

Coke Bear said:

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Please expound. I'm confused except for the fact that this is no formal "Roman" Catholic Church.

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Very simply put, the religious history of the west pre internet and pre fall of the Iron Curtain was either the Roman Catholic version of history which went something like "we were the originals, the Protestants split off from us" or the Protestant version of was some variation of "The church went astray after Saint Constantine and there's a black hole between 400 AD and Martin Luther picking up a hammer."

The internet has democratized information and put it at everyone's fingertips.

So now everyone now knows that the Roman Catholic church doesn't date to 33AD, it dates to 1054AD when Pope Leo led the Roman Patriarchate into schism with the rest of Christianity and formed what we know today as the Roman Catholic Church. Most all Roman Catholic distinctives date from that point from banning married priests at the Lateran councils circa 1150 to the much later adoption of the idea of the immaculate conception of Mary and the Pope's ability to speak ex-cathedra. In reality, Roman Catholics were the first protestants who destroyed Christianity unity.

The original Catholic church was a conciliar church. It still exists, and can be found, and still celebrates the ancient liturgy (which is a supremely profound thing, not the 1960s hippiemass of Vatican 2).

Quote:

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Protestants didn't shorten the bible, if the bible should only contain books that were inspired scripture. They removed books in the Catholic Bible because that contained 7 deuterocanonical books that the Israelites did not believe were inspired scripture.

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So it's a good idea to come in a millenium and a half after the fact and remove what is accepted Christian scripture for 1,000 years because the guys who crucified Jesus don't like them? If you're going to judaize and use the masoretic canon as a standard for Christians, you might as well be asking the local Imam what should be in the Bible. That's sort of a uniquely protestant problem. Having sawed the limb of church history off behind themselves, they try and grab onto whatever they can on the way down and end up grabbing on to Zionism because well you have to grab on to *something*. It's not that I don't appreciate Luther's efforts to reform Roman Catholicism, but in the end his successors (and contemporaries) ended up inventing something quite new.

90sBear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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90sBear said:

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You pass a lot of opinion off as "What God/Jesus wants/means"

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Is it not opinion fairly deduced from scripture? If not, why do you disagree? Do you believe God does NOT want our own thoughts and words in prayer?

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1) Two different people can "fairly deduce" a topic and come to different conclusions. Without clear facts in place, no way to know if one is right, both are right, neither are right, or a mix of both.

Fact: You don't know what or exactly how Jesus prayed in the Garden and to claim you do or can pass judgment on someone who reads that passage differently and tell them they are wrong is really arrogant.

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We are told how Jesus prayed in the Garden. Can we not deduce from scripture that Jesus did not pray by ritualistically chanting memorized lines over and over again a set number of times, like the rosary? It would be "arrogant" to tell someone they are wrong if they insist that the way Jesus prayed was the same as praying the rosary?

Isn't it "clear facts" where Jesus tells us not to pray using "vain repetitions, like the pagans do"? Doesn't that sound like what they're doing when praying the rosary? Especially considering they also use prayer beads to keep count, which is rooted in ancient Hinduism and Buddhism (pagans) who used them for the same reason - to keep count of their repetitions? Isn't there enough similarity there for us to deduce that this is exactly the kind of prayer that Jesus is telling us God does not want? Or must we always take the "there's no way to know who is right or wrong, so let's not judge anybody" angle?

curtpenn said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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curtpenn said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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curtpenn said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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curtpenn said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Coke Bear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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You are not to determine someone's heart when they pray, sure....but what if they're praying not to God, but to someone else? Can you not discern the idolatry in that?

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At this point, I and others have stated many times that praying does NOT equal worshiping. To pray means to ask. Please substitute "pray" for "ask for intercession." After this many times of being told the same thing, this is disrespectful and rude. Quite frankly, there may be no need to continue the conversation if you are not willing to meet us on this point, I'm done with this discussion.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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When a Catholic prays the rosary, they are praying to Mary, not God. For every one praise of God in the rosary, there are TEN praises to Mary. Even the beads they use have pagan roots. They are used to keep track of the number of prayer repetitions. Jesus himself told us to not use vain repetitions when we pray, as the pagans do (Matthew 6:7). They are directly disobeying Jesus. They are also calling Mary "our life" and "our hope", and refer to her as "holy queen". There is a "Queen of Heaven" in the bible, and it's a pagan goddess. If someone does these things, how can their "heart" be anything else but idolatrous? If it's not at least your tenth thought, then there is truly something wrong with your discernment, if you are a believer.

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Quite frankly, I expected better from you on this. You possess a great deal of knowledge and to resort to this sophomoric claims that I would expect from a small town Baptist preacher that doesn't know any better. These statements of "beads of pagan roots" and "repetition of prayers" are almost embarrassing for you.

I'll address Matthew 6:7 to help others better understand. Jesus, in Matthew 26:44:

So, leaving them again, he went away and prayed for the third time, saying the same words again.

Whoa, Jesus is repeating prayers. He must not have read what he said in Matt 6:7

In Thessalonians 5:17 - St. Paul urges us to "Pray without ceasing."

Same thing, maybe Paul was still blind and couldn't read Matt 6:7.

In Rev 4:8, Each of the four living creatures had six wings and was covered with eyes all around, even under its wings. Day and night they never stop saying: "'Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty,'

The angels here have no excuses. They have eyes all around, they should have most certainly read Matthew 6;7.

Maybe there's a logical explanation. In Matthew 6:7, Jesus is addressing the pagans that believed that they could wear down there gods like in 1 Kings 18 when the worshipers of Baal tried to call down fire when their babbling of prayers.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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There is so much about praying the rosary that is at the very least unscriptural, if not outright pagan idolatry. You aren't "judging" them by discerning this. If you are a believer in Jesus, then you should tell these people the truth, not out of "judgement" but to warn them.

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Do you even know what the rosary is? Seriously. Once again, I would have expected you to at least understand what the rosary is comprised of if you were going to comment about it so authoritatively.

The rosary stated around the 12th century. The monks and other religious would memorize and pray all 150 of the Psalms. Of course, most lay people could not read, some pious people would repeat the Our Father "Pater Nostra" 150 times like the monks prayed the Psalms.

Traditions states that sometime around the 14th century, our Blessed Mother appeared to St. Dominic and gave him the structure of the rosary. The beginning of each rosary starts with the Apostle's Creed, an Our Father, 3 Hail Mary's (for an increase for the virtues of Faith, Hope, and Love), and a Glory Be prayer. Next 5 decades of Hail Mary's are prayed.

Now each rosary covers a specific mystery. The three original mysteries are the Glorious, Joyful, and the Sorrowful mysteries. Today is Friday. Most Catholic pray the Sorrowful mysteries on Fridays. (It's my favorite mystery.)

The Sorrowful first decade is the Agony in the Garden. We say an Our Father followed by 10 Hail Mary's. While saying these prayers, we contemplate on Jesus' suffering in the Garden of Gethsemane.
The Sorrowful second decade is the Scourging at the pillar, preceded by the Our Father followed by another decade. We dwell upon his brutal scouring which according to the the Shroud of Turin, 120 lashes with a Roman flagellum.
Third Sorrowful mystery is the Crowning of Thorns: Our Father, decade, and the contemplation of the spitting, punching, mocking, and pressing or beating the CAP of thorns onto Christ's head.
4th Sorrowful mystery is the Carrying of the Cross on the Via De La Rosa. Another Our Father, decade with the imagining of what it was like to carry a nearly 100 lb beam of wood for nearly a mile up hill to Golgatha. He fell three times. It's possible the third fall dislocated his shoulder, nearly paralyzing necessitating Simon of Cyrene carrying his cross.
5th Sorrowful mystery - Our Father, final decade while praying about the excruciating pain of having a nail driven thru the median nerve of the wrist and feet. The cruciform position of the body making exhaling extremely painful to the point where the lungs fill up with fluid and the heart gives out.

Finally we finish the rosary with a Glory Be.

When the monks and others replaced the 150 Psalms with 153 Hail Mary's (50 from each mystery (Sorrowful, Joyful, and Glorious). This allowed them to contemplate on the life of Jesus rather than just the Psalms.

The rosary is "scripture (Jesus's life) on a rope".

Anyone can pray the rosary. Not just Catholics. It's a universal prayer dwelling on the life of Jesus.

Our Easter Rite Catholics implore the Jesus prayer. "Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner." They repeat this with their breathing. {inhale]"Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God," {exhale} "have mercy on me, a sinner." I do this every day for a bit. It's very peaceful. I try to remember to do this when I approach the altar for the Eucharist every Sunday and Friday.

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You don't read and apply scripture with sound reasoning and in good faith. Do you honestly not see the difference between Jesus imploring God from his heart multiple times in separate prayers to deliver him from the unbelievable amount of suffering he was to face, and Catholics ritualistically repeating pre-written and memorized phrases over and over in succession and a set number of times in the same prayer? If you're really in anguish, or in dire need, naturally it's going to lead you to ask God multiple times throughout the day for help, which is going to mean using the same words and phrases. This is NOT the same thing as ritualistically repeating a the same words and phrases in a set prayer one has memorized, and doing it over and over again a set number of times in the same sitting. This isn't a special, unique prayer that comes from the individual heart. This is corporate religiosity. Which do you think God really wants?

And Jesus didn't repeat the same words over and over in the same sitting. He made multiple separate prayers, but he said them in different ways: "And going a little farther he fell on his face and prayed, saying, "My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as you will."....... Again, for the second time, he went away and prayed, "My Father, if this cannot pass unless I drink it, your will be done."......So, leaving them again, he went away and prayed for the third time, saying the same words again."

When it says Jesus "said the same words again", it doesn't mean that he repeated the same phrase he had been saying, it just means he made the same request of God again, as he had done the previous two times.

And how does "pray without ceasing" mean ritualistically repeating the same words and phrases over and over again? This is yet again an example of interpreting scripture in bad faith in order to defend one's belief and practice.

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That you accuse Coke Bear of acting in bad faith really makes my blood boil and makes me wish I could reach through this screen and jerk a knot in your tail. You are fortunate to be able to function anonymously behind a keyboard. Sorry (sort of) if this isn't very Christ-like, but there it is. I will ask for forgiveness. You should do likewise.

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I really don't think your blood is boiling against me. It's really against the truth that I'm saying. You hate it, and you can't argue against it. I don't doubt you'd want to hurt me if we were having this discussion face to face. You are being led by the spirit of the god of this world, which is hostile to the truth of Jesus and his true gospel.

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You are a liar in league with the father of lies. Your "truth" is nothing but slander and falsehoods built on your own titanic hubris. The stench of your fundamentalist self righteousness permeates every post. Does it upset me that you dare accuse good people here who are serious about their faith in Christ? Damn right it does. That you can't see that your specious accusations of "bad faith" are completely false tells us all we need to know about you,
your critical thinking skills, and your version of Christianity. Jesus wept…

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What makes me a "liar in league with the father of lies"? You haven't made an argument against the truth I've said. Rather, you just found it more convenient to call me a liar without critical thinking skills than actually demonstrate it.

Those who are in league with the "father of lies" are those who promote unbiblical beliefs and practices, especially the ones that involve a false gospel, and stealing the glory, honor, and praise from God/Jesus and giving them to someone else. The "father of lies" is the one who led you to believe that it is being a "Pharisee" to believe that we should only put our hope of eternal salvation on Jesus, and not on anyone else, which is what Christianity is. He is the one that led you to follow beliefs and practices that are deeply rooted in Roman paganism. He is the one that led you to think that believing that saints can hear our prayers is on level with the belief that Jesus can hear our prayers. And he is the one who led you to childishly threaten someone on the internet simply because he was telling the truth.

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Here's a direct quote from one of your previous posts:

"But you are making the positive assertion that prayer to Mary and the saints was taught, believed, and practiced by Jesus, his apostles, or the first Christians".

This is a lie that you have never manned up and owned. In the same way you lie every time you accused me and others of acting, to use your repeated phrase, "in bad faith". That is a total lie.

You lie when you accuse me and others here of doing anything other than putting "our hope of eternal salvation on Jesus".

You lie when you claim the father of lies "led you to follow beliefs and practices that are deeply rooted in Roman paganism". Still waiting for your answer about your personal household Christmas and Easter practices, btw. Hypocrite.

You lie when you claim the father of lies "is the one that led you to think that believing that saints can hear our prayers is on level with the belief that Jesus can hear our prayers".

You lie when you equate invoking the saints with "praying to" Jesus or God. These things are not the same.

You lie when spew your nonsense that you are not being divisive contra the will of Jesus that his followers be one.

You are a liar straight from the Father of Lies. Quod erat demonstrandum.

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Yeah, none of these are lies. Do you know what a lie is? - You start off with a lie right there. How typical.

Try this one again, liar:

Here's a direct quote from one of your previous posts:


"But you are making the positive assertion that prayer to Mary and the saints was taught, believed, and practiced by Jesus, his apostles, or the first Christians".

I've confronted you multiple times with this lie and you completely gloss over or ignore it. Typical from you when confronted with your own lies.

I must have missed your question about Christmas and Easter. I celebrate Christmas as a secular holiday, given that Jesus wasn't really born on that day, and that it has pagan roots. I celebrate not Easter, but Good Friday and "Resurrection Sunday". But here's the deal - I don't fault anyone who celebrates Christmas as the birthday of Jesus, or Easter as the day he was resurrected, because despite the pagan roots behind these days, at least they are turning these days into days to give all the glory, honor, and praise to Jesus. However, those who follow the pagan roots of saint prayer and worship, are NOT turning it into something that gives all the glory and praise to Jesus, but rather, they're apportioning it out to saints. You see the difference? -You missed the point again. You claim some things have pagan origins and are to be shunned and I asked if you did things such as have a Christmas Tree, exchange gifts, or dye Easter eggs and you just deflect again - another lie from you. Asking for intercession IS NOT turning anything into something that denies all the glory and praise to Jesus, liar. You obviously won't see the difference. Satan smiles upon you.

Here's the bottom line. The one who is in league with the father of lies, would be one who believed it is being a "Pharisee" to suggest that Christians should only put their hope of eternal salvation on Jesus. Also, it is the one who saw no problem with prayers to Mary that elevated her to the level of Jesus which is clearly heretical and idolatrous. In fact, you defended them. And it is the one who threatened another person on the internet just for telling the truth. These are your fruits. "You shall know them by their fruits." - Here's the bottom line: No one here has suggested they believe in any other means of salvation than Jesus. I actually provided context laying out Roman resistance to ONE prayer that you cling to as if your own salvation depended upon it. I suggested one phrase from that particular prayer could be interpreted differently. You in your overblown self righteousness created a straw man typical and worthy of any Pharisee sitting in judgment on the beliefs and opinions of others.

You are what your actions and words say you are. Own it, liar. What are your fruits here? Is Jesus pleased with you, do you think?

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- is it a lie to say that you claimed the "cloud of witnesses" can be interpreted as saints being aware of us, and hence, are able to know our prayers to them? Isn't this saying, then, that Jesus and his apostles are teaching it? And is it a lie to say that when you were asked if the first Christians did believe and practice praying to saints, you answered in the positive? If these are not lies, then how is it a lie to claim that you asserted that praying to saints was taught, believed, and practiced Jesus, his apostles, and the first Christians?

- I did not say that for all things, if it has pagan origins it must be shunned. I was saying that in Christian belief and practice, if something has pagan origins rather than originating from God, it must be shunned.

- it is not a lie to believe and assert that praying to saints takes away glory, honor and praise from Jesus. Again, do you know what a lie is?

- where did I say that a specific person believed in other means of salvation except through Jesus? Aren't you "lying" about that, according to your book?

- there is no defense, no "way of interpreting" that makes those prayers ok. They are clearly heretical and idolatrous, and if you don't recognize that, or if you defend it, then something's really wrong with you spiritually. That is no lie.

Coke Bear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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If we're going to parse 2 Timothy 3:16, then let's read it carefully: "All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.". If it makes us complete, then this would seem to indicate that only scripture is sufficient. There is no need for anything else outside of Scripture, like tradition.

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Please note that is does NOT say that "ONLY scripture is God breathed"

One still has to ask, who determined what the scriptures were? It was the Catholic Church that discussed which writings were scripture.

Finally, nearly half the books of the NT (11 of them) were written after 1 Timothy. Should we include these.

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- I did not say 2 Timothy 3:16 says "only scripture". I said that the verse is telling us that "only scripture" is sufficient, in response to commenter.

- again - the OT, the four gospels, and the epistles from the apostles were already deemed authoritative and were being circulated and used by Jesus' followers, before any Catholic council deemed them scripture. The way you get around this is by calling the first Christians the "Catholic Church" which is disingenuous. They weren't called Catholics, they were Christians.

- we should accept those 11 books by the same criteria that the others were chosen.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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90sBear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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90sBear said:

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You pass a lot of opinion off as "What God/Jesus wants/means"

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Is it not opinion fairly deduced from scripture? If not, why do you disagree? Do you believe God does NOT want our own thoughts and words in prayer?

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1) Two different people can "fairly deduce" a topic and come to different conclusions. Without clear facts in place, no way to know if one is right, both are right, neither are right, or a mix of both.

Fact: You don't know what or exactly how Jesus prayed in the Garden and to claim you do or can pass judgment on someone who reads that passage differently and tell them they are wrong is really arrogant.

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We are told how Jesus prayed in the Garden. Can we not deduce from scripture that Jesus did not pray by ritualistically chanting memorized lines over and over again a set number of times, like the rosary? It would be "arrogant" to tell someone they are wrong if they insist that the way Jesus prayed was the same as praying the rosary?

Isn't it "clear facts" where Jesus tells us not to pray using "vain repetitions, like the pagans do"? Doesn't that sound like what they're doing when praying the rosary? Especially considering they also use prayer beads to keep count, which is rooted in ancient Hinduism and Buddhism (pagans) who used them for the same reason - to keep count of their repetitions? Isn't there enough similarity there for us to deduce that this is exactly the kind of prayer that Jesus is telling us God does not want? Or must we always take the "there's no way to know who is right or wrong, so let's not judge anybody" angle?

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Your deduction = your opinion. Someone else's deduction = someone else's opinion. Yours is no more valid than another's. To think otherwise is arrogance.

Jesus directly told us to pray the Lord's Prayer. From that I could deduce that only the Lord's Prayer is valid and that every prayer you have ever spoken other than that is invalid and therefore not heard.

Sorry, sounds like you have wasted a lot of prayer time by not doing exactly what Jesus explicitly said to do and nothing different. /s

Coke Bear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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- You are attributing departed people who are in heaven with the capacity to not only receive spiritual communication via prayer, but also the ability to carry out your request. We know by direct revelation from God that Jesus is capable of these things, so we pray to him. By what revelation from God do we know departed saints have these attributes?

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I have stated MANY times, but you refuse to acknowledge, that the saints in heaven do NOT have the ability to perform miracles. All they do is present our prayers to God (and worship Him, of course.) Please quite stating this falsehood. James 5:16: ==> by what revelation do you know they can receive our prayers and present them? You aren't answering the question.

"The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much" No one is more righteous than those in heaven.==> isn't that saying "man"? Are there "men" in heaven, or is this verse talking about earthly people? Regardless, what does this verse have to do with praying to saints? If saints pray for us in heaven, that's one thing. But that doesn't mean we are to pray to them.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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How do you know that certain saints are truly in heaven to begin with? By what revelation?

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We know Mary is in Heaven. She's depicted there in Revelation. Even if you deny that depiction, I'd like to find a person who denies that the Mother of God in not in heaven. ==> if that is her depiction, then she is in anguish from birth pangs, which means she had original sin, contrary to what the Catholic Church teaches. Also, if she is depicted in heaven there, then Satan who is represented by the dragon, must also be in heaven. Can't have it both ways.

As stated before, today we know that a person is in heaven when they have two miracles attributed to their intercession. One can easily look up these accounts of Mother Teresa, Pope JPII, Padre Pio, Fr. Maximilian Kolbe, etc. ==> and as directly shown to you before, Jesus himself stated that performing miracles does not mean one is saved (Matthew 7:22-24). How is it that even after I showed you directly from scripture how this belief is false, that you continue on believing it?

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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- "When we practice Christianity, it is important that we practice the faith once delivered to the saints which exists to this day..." - did this practice of praying to Mary and the saints originate from Jesus and his apostles, i.e. apostolic tradition? If it didn't, then based on what new revelation from God outside of Jesus did it begin?

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This is a illogical question. It's like asking "if God can make a square circle." NO one was in heaven until Jesus' resurrection. They could NOT have asked for anyone's intercession. It wasn't until the Church had great martyrs like, Justin Martyr (how did his parent's know - just kidding), Ignatius of Antioch, Polycarp, Perpetua and Felicity, etc.o ==> then based on what new revelation from God outside of Jesus are you basing this on? Also, if no one was in heaven before Jesus' resurrection, then where were Moses and Elijah when they appeared with Jesus in the transfiguration?

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answers in bold above

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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curtpenn said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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curtpenn said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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curtpenn said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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curtpenn said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Coke Bear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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You are not to determine someone's heart when they pray, sure....but what if they're praying not to God, but to someone else? Can you not discern the idolatry in that?

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At this point, I and others have stated many times that praying does NOT equal worshiping. To pray means to ask. Please substitute "pray" for "ask for intercession." After this many times of being told the same thing, this is disrespectful and rude. Quite frankly, there may be no need to continue the conversation if you are not willing to meet us on this point, I'm done with this discussion.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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When a Catholic prays the rosary, they are praying to Mary, not God. For every one praise of God in the rosary, there are TEN praises to Mary. Even the beads they use have pagan roots. They are used to keep track of the number of prayer repetitions. Jesus himself told us to not use vain repetitions when we pray, as the pagans do (Matthew 6:7). They are directly disobeying Jesus. They are also calling Mary "our life" and "our hope", and refer to her as "holy queen". There is a "Queen of Heaven" in the bible, and it's a pagan goddess. If someone does these things, how can their "heart" be anything else but idolatrous? If it's not at least your tenth thought, then there is truly something wrong with your discernment, if you are a believer.

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Quite frankly, I expected better from you on this. You possess a great deal of knowledge and to resort to this sophomoric claims that I would expect from a small town Baptist preacher that doesn't know any better. These statements of "beads of pagan roots" and "repetition of prayers" are almost embarrassing for you.

I'll address Matthew 6:7 to help others better understand. Jesus, in Matthew 26:44:

So, leaving them again, he went away and prayed for the third time, saying the same words again.

Whoa, Jesus is repeating prayers. He must not have read what he said in Matt 6:7

In Thessalonians 5:17 - St. Paul urges us to "Pray without ceasing."

Same thing, maybe Paul was still blind and couldn't read Matt 6:7.

In Rev 4:8, Each of the four living creatures had six wings and was covered with eyes all around, even under its wings. Day and night they never stop saying: "'Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty,'

The angels here have no excuses. They have eyes all around, they should have most certainly read Matthew 6;7.

Maybe there's a logical explanation. In Matthew 6:7, Jesus is addressing the pagans that believed that they could wear down there gods like in 1 Kings 18 when the worshipers of Baal tried to call down fire when their babbling of prayers.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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There is so much about praying the rosary that is at the very least unscriptural, if not outright pagan idolatry. You aren't "judging" them by discerning this. If you are a believer in Jesus, then you should tell these people the truth, not out of "judgement" but to warn them.

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Do you even know what the rosary is? Seriously. Once again, I would have expected you to at least understand what the rosary is comprised of if you were going to comment about it so authoritatively.

The rosary stated around the 12th century. The monks and other religious would memorize and pray all 150 of the Psalms. Of course, most lay people could not read, some pious people would repeat the Our Father "Pater Nostra" 150 times like the monks prayed the Psalms.

Traditions states that sometime around the 14th century, our Blessed Mother appeared to St. Dominic and gave him the structure of the rosary. The beginning of each rosary starts with the Apostle's Creed, an Our Father, 3 Hail Mary's (for an increase for the virtues of Faith, Hope, and Love), and a Glory Be prayer. Next 5 decades of Hail Mary's are prayed.

Now each rosary covers a specific mystery. The three original mysteries are the Glorious, Joyful, and the Sorrowful mysteries. Today is Friday. Most Catholic pray the Sorrowful mysteries on Fridays. (It's my favorite mystery.)

The Sorrowful first decade is the Agony in the Garden. We say an Our Father followed by 10 Hail Mary's. While saying these prayers, we contemplate on Jesus' suffering in the Garden of Gethsemane.
The Sorrowful second decade is the Scourging at the pillar, preceded by the Our Father followed by another decade. We dwell upon his brutal scouring which according to the the Shroud of Turin, 120 lashes with a Roman flagellum.
Third Sorrowful mystery is the Crowning of Thorns: Our Father, decade, and the contemplation of the spitting, punching, mocking, and pressing or beating the CAP of thorns onto Christ's head.
4th Sorrowful mystery is the Carrying of the Cross on the Via De La Rosa. Another Our Father, decade with the imagining of what it was like to carry a nearly 100 lb beam of wood for nearly a mile up hill to Golgatha. He fell three times. It's possible the third fall dislocated his shoulder, nearly paralyzing necessitating Simon of Cyrene carrying his cross.
5th Sorrowful mystery - Our Father, final decade while praying about the excruciating pain of having a nail driven thru the median nerve of the wrist and feet. The cruciform position of the body making exhaling extremely painful to the point where the lungs fill up with fluid and the heart gives out.

Finally we finish the rosary with a Glory Be.

When the monks and others replaced the 150 Psalms with 153 Hail Mary's (50 from each mystery (Sorrowful, Joyful, and Glorious). This allowed them to contemplate on the life of Jesus rather than just the Psalms.

The rosary is "scripture (Jesus's life) on a rope".

Anyone can pray the rosary. Not just Catholics. It's a universal prayer dwelling on the life of Jesus.

Our Easter Rite Catholics implore the Jesus prayer. "Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner." They repeat this with their breathing. {inhale]"Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God," {exhale} "have mercy on me, a sinner." I do this every day for a bit. It's very peaceful. I try to remember to do this when I approach the altar for the Eucharist every Sunday and Friday.

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You don't read and apply scripture with sound reasoning and in good faith. Do you honestly not see the difference between Jesus imploring God from his heart multiple times in separate prayers to deliver him from the unbelievable amount of suffering he was to face, and Catholics ritualistically repeating pre-written and memorized phrases over and over in succession and a set number of times in the same prayer? If you're really in anguish, or in dire need, naturally it's going to lead you to ask God multiple times throughout the day for help, which is going to mean using the same words and phrases. This is NOT the same thing as ritualistically repeating a the same words and phrases in a set prayer one has memorized, and doing it over and over again a set number of times in the same sitting. This isn't a special, unique prayer that comes from the individual heart. This is corporate religiosity. Which do you think God really wants?

And Jesus didn't repeat the same words over and over in the same sitting. He made multiple separate prayers, but he said them in different ways: "And going a little farther he fell on his face and prayed, saying, "My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as you will."....... Again, for the second time, he went away and prayed, "My Father, if this cannot pass unless I drink it, your will be done."......So, leaving them again, he went away and prayed for the third time, saying the same words again."

When it says Jesus "said the same words again", it doesn't mean that he repeated the same phrase he had been saying, it just means he made the same request of God again, as he had done the previous two times.

And how does "pray without ceasing" mean ritualistically repeating the same words and phrases over and over again? This is yet again an example of interpreting scripture in bad faith in order to defend one's belief and practice.

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That you accuse Coke Bear of acting in bad faith really makes my blood boil and makes me wish I could reach through this screen and jerk a knot in your tail. You are fortunate to be able to function anonymously behind a keyboard. Sorry (sort of) if this isn't very Christ-like, but there it is. I will ask for forgiveness. You should do likewise.

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I really don't think your blood is boiling against me. It's really against the truth that I'm saying. You hate it, and you can't argue against it. I don't doubt you'd want to hurt me if we were having this discussion face to face. You are being led by the spirit of the god of this world, which is hostile to the truth of Jesus and his true gospel.

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You are a liar in league with the father of lies. Your "truth" is nothing but slander and falsehoods built on your own titanic hubris. The stench of your fundamentalist self righteousness permeates every post. Does it upset me that you dare accuse good people here who are serious about their faith in Christ? Damn right it does. That you can't see that your specious accusations of "bad faith" are completely false tells us all we need to know about you,
your critical thinking skills, and your version of Christianity. Jesus wept…

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What makes me a "liar in league with the father of lies"? You haven't made an argument against the truth I've said. Rather, you just found it more convenient to call me a liar without critical thinking skills than actually demonstrate it.

Those who are in league with the "father of lies" are those who promote unbiblical beliefs and practices, especially the ones that involve a false gospel, and stealing the glory, honor, and praise from God/Jesus and giving them to someone else. The "father of lies" is the one who led you to believe that it is being a "Pharisee" to believe that we should only put our hope of eternal salvation on Jesus, and not on anyone else, which is what Christianity is. He is the one that led you to follow beliefs and practices that are deeply rooted in Roman paganism. He is the one that led you to think that believing that saints can hear our prayers is on level with the belief that Jesus can hear our prayers. And he is the one who led you to childishly threaten someone on the internet simply because he was telling the truth.

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Here's a direct quote from one of your previous posts:

"But you are making the positive assertion that prayer to Mary and the saints was taught, believed, and practiced by Jesus, his apostles, or the first Christians".

This is a lie that you have never manned up and owned. In the same way you lie every time you accused me and others of acting, to use your repeated phrase, "in bad faith". That is a total lie.

You lie when you accuse me and others here of doing anything other than putting "our hope of eternal salvation on Jesus".

You lie when you claim the father of lies "led you to follow beliefs and practices that are deeply rooted in Roman paganism". Still waiting for your answer about your personal household Christmas and Easter practices, btw. Hypocrite.

You lie when you claim the father of lies "is the one that led you to think that believing that saints can hear our prayers is on level with the belief that Jesus can hear our prayers".

You lie when you equate invoking the saints with "praying to" Jesus or God. These things are not the same.

You lie when spew your nonsense that you are not being divisive contra the will of Jesus that his followers be one.

You are a liar straight from the Father of Lies. Quod erat demonstrandum.

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Yeah, none of these are lies. Do you know what a lie is? - You start off with a lie right there. How typical.

Try this one again, liar:

Here's a direct quote from one of your previous posts:


"But you are making the positive assertion that prayer to Mary and the saints was taught, believed, and practiced by Jesus, his apostles, or the first Christians".

I've confronted you multiple times with this lie and you completely gloss over or ignore it. Typical from you when confronted with your own lies.

I must have missed your question about Christmas and Easter. I celebrate Christmas as a secular holiday, given that Jesus wasn't really born on that day, and that it has pagan roots. I celebrate not Easter, but Good Friday and "Resurrection Sunday". But here's the deal - I don't fault anyone who celebrates Christmas as the birthday of Jesus, or Easter as the day he was resurrected, because despite the pagan roots behind these days, at least they are turning these days into days to give all the glory, honor, and praise to Jesus. However, those who follow the pagan roots of saint prayer and worship, are NOT turning it into something that gives all the glory and praise to Jesus, but rather, they're apportioning it out to saints. You see the difference? -You missed the point again. You claim some things have pagan origins and are to be shunned and I asked if you did things such as have a Christmas Tree, exchange gifts, or dye Easter eggs and you just deflect again - another lie from you. Asking for intercession IS NOT turning anything into something that denies all the glory and praise to Jesus, liar. You obviously won't see the difference. Satan smiles upon you.

Here's the bottom line. The one who is in league with the father of lies, would be one who believed it is being a "Pharisee" to suggest that Christians should only put their hope of eternal salvation on Jesus. Also, it is the one who saw no problem with prayers to Mary that elevated her to the level of Jesus which is clearly heretical and idolatrous. In fact, you defended them. And it is the one who threatened another person on the internet just for telling the truth. These are your fruits. "You shall know them by their fruits." - Here's the bottom line: No one here has suggested they believe in any other means of salvation than Jesus. I actually provided context laying out Roman resistance to ONE prayer that you cling to as if your own salvation depended upon it. I suggested one phrase from that particular prayer could be interpreted differently. You in your overblown self righteousness created a straw man typical and worthy of any Pharisee sitting in judgment on the beliefs and opinions of others.

You are what your actions and words say you are. Own it, liar. What are your fruits here? Is Jesus pleased with you, do you think?

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- is it a lie to say that you claimed the "cloud of witnesses" can be interpreted as saints being aware of us, and hence, are able to know our prayers to them? Isn't this saying, then, that Jesus and his apostles are teaching it? And is it a lie to say that when you were asked if the first Christians did believe and practice praying to saints, you answered in the positive? If these are not lies, then how is it a lie to claim that you asserted that praying to saints was taught, believed, and practiced Jesus, his apostles, and the first Christians? Are you so lacking in self awareness, so wedded to your self righteousness, so incapable of admitting your lies, or some combination of the above that you can't even see the tortured and twisted series of nonsense you have to go through to avoid your own lies? Try this: " Isn't this saying, then, that Jesus and his apostles are teaching it?" No, duh. Then this: "...is it a lie to say that when you were asked if the first Christians did believe and practice praying to saints, you answered in the positive? - Believe I said early Christians (at least that was my intention. I'm not taking the time to comb back through all of this). That Early Christians practiced this is beyond denial. And then this lying nonsense from you: "...how is it a lie to claim that you asserted that praying to saints was taught, believed, and practiced Jesus, his apostles..." Are you telling us you don't know the function of the conjunction "and"? I'm certain that at no point did I claim Jesus or his apostles "taught, believe, and practiced" praying to the saints, liar.

- I did not say that for all things, if it has pagan origins it must be shunned. I was saying that in Christian belief and practice, if something has pagan origins rather than originating from God, it must be shunned. -So, "if something has pagan origins rather than originating from God", then you shun Christmas Trees, singing about St Nicholas, exchanging presents, exchanging wedding rings, dying Easter eggs, right? Liar.

- it is not a lie to believe and assert that praying to saints takes away glory, honor and praise from Jesus. Again, do you know what a lie is? It is a lie to believe or assert requesting intercession from the saints takes away glory, honor and praise from Jesus. Liar. You obviously are so in thrall to the Father of Lies that you can't admit He owns you. FWIW, did not Lord's very own messenger inform Mary that she was blessed and that all generations would call her blessed? What part of "honor and praise" from all generations deprives Jesus? Who are you to question God? Sola Scriptura.

- where did I say that a specific person believed in other means of salvation except through Jesus? Aren't you "lying" about that, according to your book? From you:
"... is the one who saw no problem with prayers to Mary that elevated her to the level of Jesus which is clearly heretical and idolatrous." Liar.

- there is no defense, no "way of interpreting" that makes those prayers ok. They are clearly heretical and idolatrous, and if you don't recognize that, or if you defend it, then something's really wrong with you spiritually. That is no lie. - I don't agree with every clause of every phrase of the ONE prayer published by a centuries old Italian bishop. I do understand the circumstances of its origins and believe the motivation was pure and intended for good. As pointed out repeatedly, it is not dogma. Your repeated attacks and attempts to tear down the majority of all Christians now or ever puts you in the camp of the enemy and Father of Lies and opposed to the will of the very Savior you claim to follow. I am ashamed and embarrassed for you, lost in your world of lies and blindness.

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Realitybites said:

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Coke Bear said:

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Please expound. I'm confused except for the fact that this is no formal "Roman" Catholic Church.

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Very simply put, the religious history of the west pre internet and pre fall of the Iron Curtain was either the Roman Catholic version of history which went something like "we were the originals, the Protestants split off from us" or the Protestant version of was some variation of "The church went astray after Saint Constantine and there's a black hole between 400 AD and Martin Luther picking up a hammer."

The internet has democratized information and put it at everyone's fingertips.

So now everyone now knows that the Roman Catholic church doesn't date to 33AD, it dates to 1054AD when Pope Leo led the Roman Patriarchate into schism with the rest of Christianity and formed what we know today as the Roman Catholic Church. Most all Roman Catholic distinctives date from that point from banning married priests at the Lateran councils circa 1150 to the much later adoption of the idea of the immaculate conception of Mary and the Pope's ability to speak ex-cathedra. In reality, Roman Catholics were the first protestants who destroyed Christianity unity.

The original Catholic church was a conciliar church. It still exists, and can be found, and still celebrates the ancient liturgy (which is a supremely profound thing, not the 1960s hippiemass of Vatican 2).

Quote:

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Protestants didn't shorten the bible, if the bible should only contain books that were inspired scripture. They removed books in the Catholic Bible because that contained 7 deuterocanonical books that the Israelites did not believe were inspired scripture.

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So it's a good idea to come in a millenium and a half after the fact and remove what is accepted Christian scripture for 1,000 years because the guys who crucified Jesus don't like them? If you're going to judaize and use the masoretic canon as a standard for Christians, you might as well be asking the local Imam what should be in the Bible. That's sort of a uniquely protestant problem. Having sawed the limb of church history off behind themselves, they try and grab onto whatever they can on the way down and end up grabbing on to Zionism because well you have to grab on to *something*. It's not that I don't appreciate Luther's efforts to reform Roman Catholicism, but in the end his successors (and contemporaries) ended up inventing something quite new.

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I find it humorous how advocates of Concilliarism speak out against the "Roman Catholic" historical account of the church and the Protestant historical account when their own movement likewise attempted to redefine Church history sometime in the 1300s or 1400s.

A saying about the pot calling the kettle black comes to mind...

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Of course I agree with Bishop Strickland here, and am thankful for Catholics standing up for Christian principles.

But it isn't very "Christian" for Catholics to rely not on Jesus Christ, but rather....Mary:

Thank you brothers. Our power is…”Hail Mary full of grace…” https://t.co/ycfPjFi6Z2

— Bishop J. Strickland (@Bishopoftyler) June 27, 2023

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Huh?

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Do you not see the problem in what he said there? If you don't, and you are Catholic, then that is precisely the problem I'm addressing.

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Your issue is he said the Hail Mary?

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Are you being disingenuous or can you not read?

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I posed the question in response to you. Do with it what you will. Matters not to me

I'll ask Mary to pray for you

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Act disingenuously, but it's the other guy with the problem, and he needs prayer. Sheesh.

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Prayers said

My question still stands.

Realitybites said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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I'd suggest reading The Early Church was the Catholic Church

It will probably help clear up a lot of confusion

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There is no question that the early Church was the Catholic Church.

However, the early Church was not the Roman Catholic Church.

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The author of that book probably wouldn't disagree with you.

Interesting it was dismissed by some as propaganda

We know exactly where Moses was prior to the resurrection because Jesus tells us in Luke 16.

" "Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.' 25 But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.'

So unless you are prepared to accept that people in hell can speak to people in heaven, Moses was somewhere not named heaven. I'm not going to make a definitive statement about Elijah because his departure did not involve a grave.

Furthermore, if God cannot tolerate the presence of even the slightest bit of sin making the crucifixion and resurrection a prerequisite for salvation, on what basis did he admit people into heaven prior to its completion... Mastercard?

You don't "pray to saints". You ask them to pray to God for you in the same way you would ask a family member to do so.

curtpenn said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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curtpenn said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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curtpenn said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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curtpenn said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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curtpenn said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Coke Bear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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You are not to determine someone's heart when they pray, sure....but what if they're praying not to God, but to someone else? Can you not discern the idolatry in that?

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At this point, I and others have stated many times that praying does NOT equal worshiping. To pray means to ask. Please substitute "pray" for "ask for intercession." After this many times of being told the same thing, this is disrespectful and rude. Quite frankly, there may be no need to continue the conversation if you are not willing to meet us on this point, I'm done with this discussion.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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When a Catholic prays the rosary, they are praying to Mary, not God. For every one praise of God in the rosary, there are TEN praises to Mary. Even the beads they use have pagan roots. They are used to keep track of the number of prayer repetitions. Jesus himself told us to not use vain repetitions when we pray, as the pagans do (Matthew 6:7). They are directly disobeying Jesus. They are also calling Mary "our life" and "our hope", and refer to her as "holy queen". There is a "Queen of Heaven" in the bible, and it's a pagan goddess. If someone does these things, how can their "heart" be anything else but idolatrous? If it's not at least your tenth thought, then there is truly something wrong with your discernment, if you are a believer.

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Quite frankly, I expected better from you on this. You possess a great deal of knowledge and to resort to this sophomoric claims that I would expect from a small town Baptist preacher that doesn't know any better. These statements of "beads of pagan roots" and "repetition of prayers" are almost embarrassing for you.

I'll address Matthew 6:7 to help others better understand. Jesus, in Matthew 26:44:

So, leaving them again, he went away and prayed for the third time, saying the same words again.

Whoa, Jesus is repeating prayers. He must not have read what he said in Matt 6:7

In Thessalonians 5:17 - St. Paul urges us to "Pray without ceasing."

Same thing, maybe Paul was still blind and couldn't read Matt 6:7.

In Rev 4:8, Each of the four living creatures had six wings and was covered with eyes all around, even under its wings. Day and night they never stop saying: "'Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty,'

The angels here have no excuses. They have eyes all around, they should have most certainly read Matthew 6;7.

Maybe there's a logical explanation. In Matthew 6:7, Jesus is addressing the pagans that believed that they could wear down there gods like in 1 Kings 18 when the worshipers of Baal tried to call down fire when their babbling of prayers.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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There is so much about praying the rosary that is at the very least unscriptural, if not outright pagan idolatry. You aren't "judging" them by discerning this. If you are a believer in Jesus, then you should tell these people the truth, not out of "judgement" but to warn them.

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Do you even know what the rosary is? Seriously. Once again, I would have expected you to at least understand what the rosary is comprised of if you were going to comment about it so authoritatively.

The rosary stated around the 12th century. The monks and other religious would memorize and pray all 150 of the Psalms. Of course, most lay people could not read, some pious people would repeat the Our Father "Pater Nostra" 150 times like the monks prayed the Psalms.

Traditions states that sometime around the 14th century, our Blessed Mother appeared to St. Dominic and gave him the structure of the rosary. The beginning of each rosary starts with the Apostle's Creed, an Our Father, 3 Hail Mary's (for an increase for the virtues of Faith, Hope, and Love), and a Glory Be prayer. Next 5 decades of Hail Mary's are prayed.

Now each rosary covers a specific mystery. The three original mysteries are the Glorious, Joyful, and the Sorrowful mysteries. Today is Friday. Most Catholic pray the Sorrowful mysteries on Fridays. (It's my favorite mystery.)

The Sorrowful first decade is the Agony in the Garden. We say an Our Father followed by 10 Hail Mary's. While saying these prayers, we contemplate on Jesus' suffering in the Garden of Gethsemane.
The Sorrowful second decade is the Scourging at the pillar, preceded by the Our Father followed by another decade. We dwell upon his brutal scouring which according to the the Shroud of Turin, 120 lashes with a Roman flagellum.
Third Sorrowful mystery is the Crowning of Thorns: Our Father, decade, and the contemplation of the spitting, punching, mocking, and pressing or beating the CAP of thorns onto Christ's head.
4th Sorrowful mystery is the Carrying of the Cross on the Via De La Rosa. Another Our Father, decade with the imagining of what it was like to carry a nearly 100 lb beam of wood for nearly a mile up hill to Golgatha. He fell three times. It's possible the third fall dislocated his shoulder, nearly paralyzing necessitating Simon of Cyrene carrying his cross.
5th Sorrowful mystery - Our Father, final decade while praying about the excruciating pain of having a nail driven thru the median nerve of the wrist and feet. The cruciform position of the body making exhaling extremely painful to the point where the lungs fill up with fluid and the heart gives out.

Finally we finish the rosary with a Glory Be.

When the monks and others replaced the 150 Psalms with 153 Hail Mary's (50 from each mystery (Sorrowful, Joyful, and Glorious). This allowed them to contemplate on the life of Jesus rather than just the Psalms.

The rosary is "scripture (Jesus's life) on a rope".

Anyone can pray the rosary. Not just Catholics. It's a universal prayer dwelling on the life of Jesus.

Our Easter Rite Catholics implore the Jesus prayer. "Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner." They repeat this with their breathing. {inhale]"Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God," {exhale} "have mercy on me, a sinner." I do this every day for a bit. It's very peaceful. I try to remember to do this when I approach the altar for the Eucharist every Sunday and Friday.

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You don't read and apply scripture with sound reasoning and in good faith. Do you honestly not see the difference between Jesus imploring God from his heart multiple times in separate prayers to deliver him from the unbelievable amount of suffering he was to face, and Catholics ritualistically repeating pre-written and memorized phrases over and over in succession and a set number of times in the same prayer? If you're really in anguish, or in dire need, naturally it's going to lead you to ask God multiple times throughout the day for help, which is going to mean using the same words and phrases. This is NOT the same thing as ritualistically repeating a the same words and phrases in a set prayer one has memorized, and doing it over and over again a set number of times in the same sitting. This isn't a special, unique prayer that comes from the individual heart. This is corporate religiosity. Which do you think God really wants?

And Jesus didn't repeat the same words over and over in the same sitting. He made multiple separate prayers, but he said them in different ways: "And going a little farther he fell on his face and prayed, saying, "My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as you will."....... Again, for the second time, he went away and prayed, "My Father, if this cannot pass unless I drink it, your will be done."......So, leaving them again, he went away and prayed for the third time, saying the same words again."

When it says Jesus "said the same words again", it doesn't mean that he repeated the same phrase he had been saying, it just means he made the same request of God again, as he had done the previous two times.

And how does "pray without ceasing" mean ritualistically repeating the same words and phrases over and over again? This is yet again an example of interpreting scripture in bad faith in order to defend one's belief and practice.

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That you accuse Coke Bear of acting in bad faith really makes my blood boil and makes me wish I could reach through this screen and jerk a knot in your tail. You are fortunate to be able to function anonymously behind a keyboard. Sorry (sort of) if this isn't very Christ-like, but there it is. I will ask for forgiveness. You should do likewise.

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I really don't think your blood is boiling against me. It's really against the truth that I'm saying. You hate it, and you can't argue against it. I don't doubt you'd want to hurt me if we were having this discussion face to face. You are being led by the spirit of the god of this world, which is hostile to the truth of Jesus and his true gospel.

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You are a liar in league with the father of lies. Your "truth" is nothing but slander and falsehoods built on your own titanic hubris. The stench of your fundamentalist self righteousness permeates every post. Does it upset me that you dare accuse good people here who are serious about their faith in Christ? Damn right it does. That you can't see that your specious accusations of "bad faith" are completely false tells us all we need to know about you,
your critical thinking skills, and your version of Christianity. Jesus wept…

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What makes me a "liar in league with the father of lies"? You haven't made an argument against the truth I've said. Rather, you just found it more convenient to call me a liar without critical thinking skills than actually demonstrate it.

Those who are in league with the "father of lies" are those who promote unbiblical beliefs and practices, especially the ones that involve a false gospel, and stealing the glory, honor, and praise from God/Jesus and giving them to someone else. The "father of lies" is the one who led you to believe that it is being a "Pharisee" to believe that we should only put our hope of eternal salvation on Jesus, and not on anyone else, which is what Christianity is. He is the one that led you to follow beliefs and practices that are deeply rooted in Roman paganism. He is the one that led you to think that believing that saints can hear our prayers is on level with the belief that Jesus can hear our prayers. And he is the one who led you to childishly threaten someone on the internet simply because he was telling the truth.

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Here's a direct quote from one of your previous posts:

"But you are making the positive assertion that prayer to Mary and the saints was taught, believed, and practiced by Jesus, his apostles, or the first Christians".

This is a lie that you have never manned up and owned. In the same way you lie every time you accused me and others of acting, to use your repeated phrase, "in bad faith". That is a total lie.

You lie when you accuse me and others here of doing anything other than putting "our hope of eternal salvation on Jesus".

You lie when you claim the father of lies "led you to follow beliefs and practices that are deeply rooted in Roman paganism". Still waiting for your answer about your personal household Christmas and Easter practices, btw. Hypocrite.

You lie when you claim the father of lies "is the one that led you to think that believing that saints can hear our prayers is on level with the belief that Jesus can hear our prayers".

You lie when you equate invoking the saints with "praying to" Jesus or God. These things are not the same.

You lie when spew your nonsense that you are not being divisive contra the will of Jesus that his followers be one.

You are a liar straight from the Father of Lies. Quod erat demonstrandum.

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Yeah, none of these are lies. Do you know what a lie is? - You start off with a lie right there. How typical.

Try this one again, liar:

Here's a direct quote from one of your previous posts:


"But you are making the positive assertion that prayer to Mary and the saints was taught, believed, and practiced by Jesus, his apostles, or the first Christians".

I've confronted you multiple times with this lie and you completely gloss over or ignore it. Typical from you when confronted with your own lies.

I must have missed your question about Christmas and Easter. I celebrate Christmas as a secular holiday, given that Jesus wasn't really born on that day, and that it has pagan roots. I celebrate not Easter, but Good Friday and "Resurrection Sunday". But here's the deal - I don't fault anyone who celebrates Christmas as the birthday of Jesus, or Easter as the day he was resurrected, because despite the pagan roots behind these days, at least they are turning these days into days to give all the glory, honor, and praise to Jesus. However, those who follow the pagan roots of saint prayer and worship, are NOT turning it into something that gives all the glory and praise to Jesus, but rather, they're apportioning it out to saints. You see the difference? -You missed the point again. You claim some things have pagan origins and are to be shunned and I asked if you did things such as have a Christmas Tree, exchange gifts, or dye Easter eggs and you just deflect again - another lie from you. Asking for intercession IS NOT turning anything into something that denies all the glory and praise to Jesus, liar. You obviously won't see the difference. Satan smiles upon you.

Here's the bottom line. The one who is in league with the father of lies, would be one who believed it is being a "Pharisee" to suggest that Christians should only put their hope of eternal salvation on Jesus. Also, it is the one who saw no problem with prayers to Mary that elevated her to the level of Jesus which is clearly heretical and idolatrous. In fact, you defended them. And it is the one who threatened another person on the internet just for telling the truth. These are your fruits. "You shall know them by their fruits." - Here's the bottom line: No one here has suggested they believe in any other means of salvation than Jesus. I actually provided context laying out Roman resistance to ONE prayer that you cling to as if your own salvation depended upon it. I suggested one phrase from that particular prayer could be interpreted differently. You in your overblown self righteousness created a straw man typical and worthy of any Pharisee sitting in judgment on the beliefs and opinions of others.

You are what your actions and words say you are. Own it, liar. What are your fruits here? Is Jesus pleased with you, do you think?

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- is it a lie to say that you claimed the "cloud of witnesses" can be interpreted as saints being aware of us, and hence, are able to know our prayers to them? Isn't this saying, then, that Jesus and his apostles are teaching it? And is it a lie to say that when you were asked if the first Christians did believe and practice praying to saints, you answered in the positive? If these are not lies, then how is it a lie to claim that you asserted that praying to saints was taught, believed, and practiced Jesus, his apostles, and the first Christians? Are you so lacking in self awareness, so wedded to your self righteousness, so incapable of admitting your lies, or some combination of the above that you can't even see the tortured and twisted series of nonsense you have to go through to avoid your own lies? Try this: " Isn't this saying, then, that Jesus and his apostles are teaching it?" No, duh. Then this: "...is it a lie to say that when you were asked if the first Christians did believe and practice praying to saints, you answered in the positive? - Believe I said early Christians (at least that was my intention. I'm not taking the time to comb back through all of this). That Early Christians practiced this is beyond denial. And then this lying nonsense from you: "...how is it a lie to claim that you asserted that praying to saints was taught, believed, and practiced Jesus, his apostles..." Are you telling us you don't know the function of the conjunction "and"? I'm certain that at no point did I claim Jesus or his apostles "taught, believe, and practiced" praying to the saints, liar.

- I did not say that for all things, if it has pagan origins it must be shunned. I was saying that in Christian belief and practice, if something has pagan origins rather than originating from God, it must be shunned. -So, "if something has pagan origins rather than originating from God", then you shun Christmas Trees, singing about St Nicholas, exchanging presents, exchanging wedding rings, dying Easter eggs, right? Liar.

- it is not a lie to believe and assert that praying to saints takes away glory, honor and praise from Jesus. Again, do you know what a lie is? It is a lie to believe or assert requesting intercession from the saints takes away glory, honor and praise from Jesus. Liar. You obviously are so in thrall to the Father of Lies that you can't admit He owns you. FWIW, did not Lord's very own messenger inform Mary that she was blessed and that all generations would call her blessed? What part of "honor and praise" from all generations deprives Jesus? Who are you to question God? Sola Scriptura.

- where did I say that a specific person believed in other means of salvation except through Jesus? Aren't you "lying" about that, according to your book? From you:
"... is the one who saw no problem with prayers to Mary that elevated her to the level of Jesus which is clearly heretical and idolatrous." Liar.

- there is no defense, no "way of interpreting" that makes those prayers ok. They are clearly heretical and idolatrous, and if you don't recognize that, or if you defend it, then something's really wrong with you spiritually. That is no lie. - I don't agree with every clause of every phrase of the ONE prayer published by a centuries old Italian bishop. I do understand the circumstances of its origins and believe the motivation was pure and intended for good. As pointed out repeatedly, it is not dogma. Your repeated attacks and attempts to tear down the majority of all Christians now or ever puts you in the camp of the enemy and Father of Lies and opposed to the will of the very Savior you claim to follow. I am ashamed and embarrassed for you, lost in your world of lies and blindness.

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A lie is when you say something that you know to be false. None of these are lies, as I believe all of them to be true. Your welcome.

No, I do not shun Christmas trees or exchanging presents, or the dyeing of Easter eggs. Did you not comprehend what I had just said? Calm down and actually try to understand what I said before you knee-jerk your typical angry response.

And I am not "attacking" anyone. I am strongly challenging their beliefs. You, however, are obviously attacking me. Doesn't bother me one bit. In fact, I'm actually glad you are, because it means at least you are giving me your focused attention and reading everything I'm writing.

Those prayers to Mary don't have to be dogma for them to be very troubling. Why do you keep missing the point? As I have explained, many times, those prayers have the full support and endorsement of the Catholic Church. That in itself should make one question the legitimacy of the Catholic Church's claim of authority from God.

Fre3dombear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Of course I agree with Bishop Strickland here, and am thankful for Catholics standing up for Christian principles.

But it isn't very "Christian" for Catholics to rely not on Jesus Christ, but rather....Mary:

Thank you brothers. Our power is…”Hail Mary full of grace…” https://t.co/ycfPjFi6Z2

— Bishop J. Strickland (@Bishopoftyler) June 27, 2023

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Huh?

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Do you not see the problem in what he said there? If you don't, and you are Catholic, then that is precisely the problem I'm addressing.

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Your issue is he said the Hail Mary?

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Are you being disingenuous or can you not read?

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I posed the question in response to you. Do with it what you will. Matters not to me

I'll ask Mary to pray for you

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Act disingenuously, but it's the other guy with the problem, and he needs prayer. Sheesh.

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Prayers said

My question still stands.

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Hopefully your prayer made you understand that my original post already had everything you needed to answer your question.

Realitybites said:

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We know exactly where Moses was prior to the resurrection because Jesus tells us in Luke 16.

" "Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.' 25 But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.'

So unless you are prepared to accept that people in hell can speak to people in heaven, Moses was somewhere not named heaven. I'm not going to make a definitive statement about Elijah because his departure did not involve a grave.

Furthermore, if God cannot tolerate the presence of even the slightest bit of sin making the crucifixion and resurrection a prerequisite for salvation, on what basis did he admit people into heaven prior to its completion... Mastercard?

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Assuming this is more than a parable and Jesus is telling us an actual event, and God's people who died before Jesus' resurrection went to "Abraham's bosom" - then based on what revelation do you believe that people in "heaven" can hear our prayers directed to them and in turn pray for us, but while they were with Abraham they could not? Could Peter have prayed to (or "asked") Moses or Elijah for intercession?

The parables had to be non fiction and accurate, because if they had not been then Jesus would have been bearing false witness when he told them. So for example in the case of the prodigal son, there was actually one guy whose life trajectory followed that path.

As far as a Christian being able to to ask OT figures to pray for them post resurrection they absolutely can. They are alive, and they are in direct communion with God. Prior to that point in history, I cannot say, and that would only be speculation on my part. My guess would be no, that absent from the body and present with the Lord is specifically a post resurrection state of affairs.

The whole handling of death in "Christian" American is an issue actually. Most modern Christians think they actually die, cremate their bodies, and families have a celebration of life in some sort of a semi Gnostic death ritual. Early Christians knew they didn't die and families buried the sleeping bodies of their loved ones after a funeral. A famous sermon titled "Excessive Grief at the Death of Friends" from the late 300s AD actually discusses this, the distinction drawn by Paul between the death of Christ and the sleeping bodies of Christians in 1st Thessalonians. The Hindu/Pagan practice of cremation continues to be forbidden in the Christian Church today.

I also don't like the term Abraham's Bosom because there are thousands of years of pre-Judaic history recorded in the early chapters of Genesis. Abraham himself was a Sumerian BTW.

Realitybites said:

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You don't "pray to saints". You ask them to pray to God for you in the same way you would ask a family member to do so.

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Asking a family member to pray for you involves normal, physical human communication. Do you "ask" a saint in the same way? Do you vocalize it or write it? Or do you do it in your mind? If you believe saints have the capacity to hear our physical vocalizations or read our writings, or even read our minds, and they can even receive these from millions of people at the same time - then by what revelation from God do you base this on?

Fre3dombear said:

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Realitybites said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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I'd suggest reading The Early Church was the Catholic Church

It will probably help clear up a lot of confusion

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There is no question that the early Church was the Catholic Church.

However, the early Church was not the Roman Catholic Church.

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The author of that book probably wouldn't disagree with you.

Interesting it was dismissed by some as propaganda

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You should probably educate yourself on the views of the author, if you believe otherwise. It might be quite enlightening for you.

The idea that the current iteration of the Catholic Church in anyway resembles the church in Acts is laughable it's so ridiculous. Most of what we see in mass today came about more than 1000 years after Christs death.

Realitybites said:

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The parables had to be non fiction and accurate, because if they had not been then Jesus would have been bearing false witness when he told them. So for example in the case of the prodigal son, there was actually one guy whose life trajectory followed that path.

As far as a Christian being able to to ask OT figures to pray for them post resurrection they absolutely can. They are alive, and they are in direct communion with God. Prior to that point in history, I cannot say, and that would only be speculation on my part. My guess would be no, that absent from the body and present with the Lord is specifically a post resurrection state of affairs.

The whole handling of death in "Christian" American is an issue actually. Most modern Christians think they actually die, cremate their bodies, and families have a celebration of life in some sort of a semi Gnostic death ritual. Early Christians knew they didn't die and families buried the sleeping bodies of their loved ones after a funeral. A famous sermon titled "Excessive Grief at the Death of Friends" from the late 300s AD actually discusses this, the distinction drawn by Paul between the death of Christ and the sleeping bodies of Christians in 1st Thessalonians. The Hindu/Pagan practice of cremation continues to be forbidden in the Christian Church today.

I also don't like the term Abraham's Bosom because there are thousands of years of pre-Judaic history recorded in the early chapters of Genesis. Abraham himself was a Sumerian BTW.

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Based on what revelation from God do you believe that those in heaven can receive our prayers and in turn pray for us, but those with Abraham could not? You aren't answering the question. Aren't you speculating about all of it?

Mothra said:

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The idea that the current iteration of the Catholic Church in anyway resembles the church in Acts is laughable it's so ridiculous. Most of what we see in mass today came about more than 1000 years after Christs death.

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This false. I, in another post (maybe on the other thread), have shown the writing from Justin Martyr in 155 AD, that the same elements of the mass are still the same today and in the same order.

Quote:

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And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons…But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Savior on the same day rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration.

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I don't know enough about Baptist's services to say whether they they do this every (Sun)day as the Catholic Church does.

Coke Bear said:

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Mothra said:

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The idea that the current iteration of the Catholic Church in anyway resembles the church in Acts is laughable it's so ridiculous. Most of what we see in mass today came about more than 1000 years after Christs death.

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This false. I, in another post (maybe on the other thread), have shown the writing from Justin Martyr in 155 AD, that the same elements of the mass are still the same today and in the same order.

Quote:

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And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons…But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Savior on the same day rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration.

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I don't know enough about Baptist's services to say whether they they do this every (Sun)day as the Catholic Church does.

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Justin Martyr's writings didn't prove that today's Catholic rituals at all mirrored the early church in Acts. That is a very charitable reading of his writings.