Netanyahu said "we are at war,"

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boognish_bear
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3:10p, 10/19/23
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boognish_bear
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3:11p, 10/19/23
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historian
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In reply to Redbrickbear • 3:14p, 10/19/23
Redbrickbear said:
KaiBear said:
boognish_bear said:
Pay back is a *****.

Just ask the Germans who elected Hitler.

Hindenburg?

[Hindenburg appointed Hitler as Chancellor, who immediately urged the dissolution of the Reichstag...Six days before the scheduled election date, the German parliament building was set alight in the Reichstag fire, allegedly by the Dutch Communist Marinus van der Lubbe. That event reduced the popularity of the KPD and enabled Hitler to persuade Hindenburg to pass the Reichstag Fire Decree as an emergency decree according to Article 48 of the Weimar Constitution. The emergency law removed many civil liberties and allowed the arrest of Ernst Thlmann and 4,000 other leaders and members of the KPD...consolidating the position of the Nazis.]

People always seem to forget that the Nazis never won an election by a majority of the German electorate.

Highest vote count they ever got was 43% in 1933 general election....57% of the German voting population opposed them and voted for other parties.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/March_1933_German_federal_election

In the 1930 general election the Nazi party only got 18% of the vote.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1930_German_federal_election

The Nazis never won a majority of votes in Reichstag elections, almost impossible in a multiparty system, but they were the largest party when Hitler was appointed chancellor. That's how parliamentary systems worked then and still do today. The U.S. is unique for having only two parties and all others are fringe groups with minimal impact on elections.
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In reply to boognish_bear • 3:21p, 10/19/23
boognish_bear said:

I find it difficult to take seriously anything that buffoon does. The cynic in me thinks Newsom is jealous of DeSantis for acting like a leader (rescuing Americans stranded by the war and our government, delivering supplies to our Israeli allies, making decisive statements about the entire situation, etc) and wants to look "presidential". I hope I'm wrong, but what help can California offer when their economy is a basket case and they have trouble maintaining order at home.
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historian
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3:24p, 10/19/23
https://thefederalist.com/2023/10/19/media-corruption-on-full-display-as-nyt-tries-to-justify-publishing-terrorist-propaganda-as-news/

Added bonus: Check out the bio of the writer.
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Redbrickbear
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In reply to historian • 3:55p, 10/19/23
historian said:
boognish_bear said:

I find it difficult to take seriously anything that buffoon does. The cynic in me thinks Newsom is jealous of DeSantis for acting like a leader (rescuing Americans stranded by the war and our government, delivering supplies to our Israeli allies, making decisive statements about the entire situation, etc) and wants to look "presidential". I hope I'm wrong, but what help can California offer when their economy is a basket case and they have trouble maintaining order at home.

Bingo,

Also probably getting flack from Jewish Democratic voters in California over the National Democratic party's seeming internal confliction over the war.

This way he looks Presidential and shores up a key voting bloc in the California Democratic party....and he will need all the support and money of California Democrats if he wants to make a serious Presidential run
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Redbrickbear
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In reply to historian • 4:03p, 10/19/23
historian said:
Redbrickbear said:
KaiBear said:
boognish_bear said:
Pay back is a *****.

Just ask the Germans who elected Hitler.

Hindenburg?

[Hindenburg appointed Hitler as Chancellor, who immediately urged the dissolution of the Reichstag...Six days before the scheduled election date, the German parliament building was set alight in the Reichstag fire, allegedly by the Dutch Communist Marinus van der Lubbe. That event reduced the popularity of the KPD and enabled Hitler to persuade Hindenburg to pass the Reichstag Fire Decree as an emergency decree according to Article 48 of the Weimar Constitution. The emergency law removed many civil liberties and allowed the arrest of Ernst Thlmann and 4,000 other leaders and members of the KPD...consolidating the position of the Nazis.]

People always seem to forget that the Nazis never won an election by a majority of the German electorate.

Highest vote count they ever got was 43% in 1933 general election....57% of the German voting population opposed them and voted for other parties.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/March_1933_German_federal_election

In the 1930 general election the Nazi party only got 18% of the vote.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1930_German_federal_election

The Nazis never won a majority of votes in Reichstag elections, almost impossible in a multiparty system, but they were the largest party when Hitler was appointed chancellor. That's how parliamentary systems worked then and still do today. The U.S. is unique for having only two parties and all others are fringe groups with minimal impact on elections.

Sure,

Merely pointing out the majority of actual Germans never voted for him....and that he took absolute power by violating the Constitution in basically a coup....something for people to keep in mind when they are like "screw all the Germans".

People today act like Hitler got 90% of the German vote.

Same thing in Russia.

The Russian provisional government (after the end of the Monarchy) held an election. The Bolsheviks only got 23% of the Vote.

Later of course in October they launch a armed revolt and the Communists just over through the Provisional government and took power...then killed millions.

But its not like the majority of Russians ever voted for Lenin.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1917_Russian_Constituent_Assembly_election

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4:06p, 10/19/23
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KaiBear
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4:09p, 10/19/23
And here we go.
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boognish_bear
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4:28p, 10/19/23
Maybe Trump and Gavin can save money and share a plane

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sombear
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In reply to Redbrickbear • 4:53p, 10/19/23
Redbrickbear said:
historian said:
Redbrickbear said:
KaiBear said:
boognish_bear said:
Pay back is a *****.

Just ask the Germans who elected Hitler.

Hindenburg?

[Hindenburg appointed Hitler as Chancellor, who immediately urged the dissolution of the Reichstag...Six days before the scheduled election date, the German parliament building was set alight in the Reichstag fire, allegedly by the Dutch Communist Marinus van der Lubbe. That event reduced the popularity of the KPD and enabled Hitler to persuade Hindenburg to pass the Reichstag Fire Decree as an emergency decree according to Article 48 of the Weimar Constitution. The emergency law removed many civil liberties and allowed the arrest of Ernst Thlmann and 4,000 other leaders and members of the KPD...consolidating the position of the Nazis.]

People always seem to forget that the Nazis never won an election by a majority of the German electorate.

Highest vote count they ever got was 43% in 1933 general election....57% of the German voting population opposed them and voted for other parties.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/March_1933_German_federal_election

In the 1930 general election the Nazi party only got 18% of the vote.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1930_German_federal_election

The Nazis never won a majority of votes in Reichstag elections, almost impossible in a multiparty system, but they were the largest party when Hitler was appointed chancellor. That's how parliamentary systems worked then and still do today. The U.S. is unique for having only two parties and all others are fringe groups with minimal impact on elections.

Sure,

Merely pointing out the majority of actual Germans never voted for him....and that he took absolute power by violating the Constitution in basically a coup....something for people to keep in mind when they are like "screw all the Germans".

People today act like Hitler got 90% of the German vote.

Same thing in Russia.

The Russian provisional government (after the end of the Monarchy) held an election. The Bolsheviks only got 23% of the Vote.

Later of course in October they launch a armed revolt and the Communists just over through the Provisional government and took power...then killed millions.

But its not like the majority of Russians ever voted for Lenin.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1917_Russian_Constituent_Assembly_election

Context . . . .

In Germany, huge numbers in other parties supported key elements of Nazism, and Hitler's popularity grew after the elections. And in Russia, the other parties were in many ways Bolshevik twins.\

Similarly, in Palestine, not only do a majority support Hamas, substantial additional numbers consider it legitimate and effective.
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5:03p, 10/19/23
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BearFan33
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In reply to boognish_bear • 6:30p, 10/19/23
boognish_bear said:


Is Biden going to build the wall?
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historian
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In reply to Redbrickbear • 6:41p, 10/19/23
Redbrickbear said:
historian said:
Redbrickbear said:
KaiBear said:
boognish_bear said:
Pay back is a *****.

Just ask the Germans who elected Hitler.

Hindenburg?

[Hindenburg appointed Hitler as Chancellor, who immediately urged the dissolution of the Reichstag...Six days before the scheduled election date, the German parliament building was set alight in the Reichstag fire, allegedly by the Dutch Communist Marinus van der Lubbe. That event reduced the popularity of the KPD and enabled Hitler to persuade Hindenburg to pass the Reichstag Fire Decree as an emergency decree according to Article 48 of the Weimar Constitution. The emergency law removed many civil liberties and allowed the arrest of Ernst Thlmann and 4,000 other leaders and members of the KPD...consolidating the position of the Nazis.]

People always seem to forget that the Nazis never won an election by a majority of the German electorate.

Highest vote count they ever got was 43% in 1933 general election....57% of the German voting population opposed them and voted for other parties.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/March_1933_German_federal_election

In the 1930 general election the Nazi party only got 18% of the vote.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1930_German_federal_election

The Nazis never won a majority of votes in Reichstag elections, almost impossible in a multiparty system, but they were the largest party when Hitler was appointed chancellor. That's how parliamentary systems worked then and still do today. The U.S. is unique for having only two parties and all others are fringe groups with minimal impact on elections.

Sure,

Merely pointing out the majority of actual Germans never voted for him....and that he took absolute power by violating the Constitution in basically a coup....something for people to keep in mind when they are like "screw all the Germans".

People today act like Hitler got 90% of the German vote.

Same thing in Russia.

The Russian provisional government (after the end of the Monarchy) held an election. The Bolsheviks only got 23% of the Vote.

Later of course in October they launch a armed revolt and the Communists just over through the Provisional government and took power...then killed millions.

But its not like the majority of Russians ever voted for Lenin.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1917_Russian_Constituent_Assembly_election


My point is that Hitler came to power legally. It was not a coup. Now what he did after, becoming a totalitarian dictator, that is something different.

As much as the Nazis & Bolsheviks had in common, I don't think the commies in Russia ever had anything resembling free elections. German had them until the Nazis took over. The Reichstag fire was one of the first steps.
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historian
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In reply to sombear • 6:48p, 10/19/23
sombear said:
Redbrickbear said:
historian said:
Redbrickbear said:
KaiBear said:
boognish_bear said:
Pay back is a *****.

Just ask the Germans who elected Hitler.

Hindenburg?

[Hindenburg appointed Hitler as Chancellor, who immediately urged the dissolution of the Reichstag...Six days before the scheduled election date, the German parliament building was set alight in the Reichstag fire, allegedly by the Dutch Communist Marinus van der Lubbe. That event reduced the popularity of the KPD and enabled Hitler to persuade Hindenburg to pass the Reichstag Fire Decree as an emergency decree according to Article 48 of the Weimar Constitution. The emergency law removed many civil liberties and allowed the arrest of Ernst Thlmann and 4,000 other leaders and members of the KPD...consolidating the position of the Nazis.]

People always seem to forget that the Nazis never won an election by a majority of the German electorate.

Highest vote count they ever got was 43% in 1933 general election....57% of the German voting population opposed them and voted for other parties.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/March_1933_German_federal_election

In the 1930 general election the Nazi party only got 18% of the vote.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1930_German_federal_election

The Nazis never won a majority of votes in Reichstag elections, almost impossible in a multiparty system, but they were the largest party when Hitler was appointed chancellor. That's how parliamentary systems worked then and still do today. The U.S. is unique for having only two parties and all others are fringe groups with minimal impact on elections.

Sure,

Merely pointing out the majority of actual Germans never voted for him....and that he took absolute power by violating the Constitution in basically a coup....something for people to keep in mind when they are like "screw all the Germans".

People today act like Hitler got 90% of the German vote.

Same thing in Russia.

The Russian provisional government (after the end of the Monarchy) held an election. The Bolsheviks only got 23% of the Vote.

Later of course in October they launch a armed revolt and the Communists just over through the Provisional government and took power...then killed millions.

But its not like the majority of Russians ever voted for Lenin.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1917_Russian_Constituent_Assembly_election

Context . . . .

In Germany, huge numbers in other parties supported key elements of Nazism, and Hitler's popularity grew after the elections. And in Russia, the other parties were in many ways Bolshevik twins.\

Similarly, in Palestine, not only do a majority support Hamas, substantial additional numbers consider it legitimate and effective.

That's how coalition governments with: the largest party gets the big post (prime minister, chancellor, etc) and done cabinet positions while others go to allied parties. The Nazis formed a coalition with other nationalist parties (& maybe duped some conservatives into thinking they were similar) then soon abolished all other parties. They used violence as a tool to create chaos & manipulate the people (like BLM & antifa, America's SS, SD, & SA) and control the press to limit alternate points of view. This is similar to how modern fascists use censorship & cancel culture. The internet makes it far more difficult as gif Elon Musk buying Twitter & restoring free speech in the platform but they still have Zuck & most of Big Tech, Hollywood, etc helping them.
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historian
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In reply to BearFan33 • 6:49p, 10/19/23
BearFan33 said:
boognish_bear said:


Is Biden going to build the wall?

I would not be surprised if he used the money to bring in more illegals or ship them to more American cities. Heck, knowing the Dems, they might divert a large chunk of it to their Swiss bank accounts or their election campaigns.
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Redbrickbear
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In reply to historian • 7:05p, 10/19/23
historian said:
BearFan33 said:
boognish_bear said:


Is Biden going to build the wall?

I would not be surprised if he used the money to bring in more illegals or ship them to more American cities. Heck, knowing the Dems, they might divert a large chunk of it to their Swiss bank accounts or their election campaigns.


Yep,

We have spent billions on border security over the last 50 years and it has apparently stopped no one.

Whatever the Feds are doing with the money it's not going to actually stopping 3rd worlders
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historian
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In reply to Redbrickbear • 8:18p, 10/19/23
When the govt actually tries, they can exert some control on the border. The problem for the past 60 years is they often haven't tried very hard.
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RD2WINAGNBEAR86
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8:36p, 10/19/23
$14 billion proposed for Israel. $60 billion more proposed for Ukraine. $100 million proposed for the Palestine terrorists. These clowns are either going to bankrupt us or get us killed. Or both. And "clowns" applies to both parties in Congress.
"Never underestimate Joe's ability to **** things up!"

-- Barack Obama
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Jack Bauer
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9:47p, 10/19/23
Rashida Tlaib unavailable for comment

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ATL Bear
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In reply to FLBear5630 • 10:02p, 10/19/23
FLBear5630 said:
Bear8084 said:
https://apnews.com/article/syria-ghouta-chemical-attack-sarin-f3477f4a212a88e671634c10b9e17037

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2023/08/21/syria-sarin-chemical-weapons-justice/

Except they did.
How can you say that? Mattis said there is no proof? Yet, you know?


I have no idea. If you can't prove ****, you can't say it happened.

Anyone on this site there? Seriously, I know Troops and Engineers in Iraq and Kuwait that had alarms go off. Engineers destroyed Chem Weapons in Desert Storm. Anyone on this site have a personal experience?
The use of Sarin in Ghouta is 100% confirmed.
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RD2WINAGNBEAR86
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In reply to Jack Bauer • 10:05p, 10/19/23
Jack Bauer said:
Rashida Tlaib unavailable for comment

Animals. The killers need to be put down like rabid dogs and their bodies fed to the feral hogs. Every Militant Muslim deserves to be converted to pig excrement.
"Never underestimate Joe's ability to **** things up!"

-- Barack Obama
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historian
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10:38p, 10/19/23
https://twitchy.com/coucy/2023/10/19/gavin-newsom-goes-to-israel-n2388752
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In reply to RD2WINAGNBEAR86 • 11:11p, 10/19/23
RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:
$14 billion proposed for Israel. $60 billion more proposed for Ukraine. $100 million proposed for the Palestine terrorists. These clowns are either going to bankrupt us or get us killed. Or both. And "clowns" applies to both parties in Congress.



But there was just not enough cash to build the border wall…Congress just could not spare it


[The Department of Homeland Security's internal estimate in early 2017, shortly after Trump took office, was that his proposed border wall would cost $21.6 billion and take 3.5 years to build.]
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whiterock
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In reply to FLBear5630 • 6:58a, 10/20/23
FLBear5630 said:
Bear8084 said:
https://apnews.com/article/syria-ghouta-chemical-attack-sarin-f3477f4a212a88e671634c10b9e17037

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2023/08/21/syria-sarin-chemical-weapons-justice/

Except they did.
How can you say that? Mattis said there is no proof? Yet, you know?


I have no idea. If you can't prove ****, you can't say it happened.

Anyone on this site there? Seriously, I know Troops and Engineers in Iraq and Kuwait that had alarms go off. Engineers destroyed Chem Weapons in Desert Storm. Anyone on this site have a personal experience?
reading the intelligence reports following Gulf War I..... There were, literally, high speed chases in Baghdad, where UN inspectors (with Iraqi escorts) chased vehicles which had left compounds being inspected.

There was a clear analytical consensus of intel agencies all over the world at that time that Iraq had not only Chem/Bio weapons but the capability to manufacture their own. Literally no one questioned that. The evidence was overwhelming. Incontrovertible. Pictures of such being used IN Iraq on Kurdish civilians. Testing of the dead civilians, etc....

Where did it all go?

With such analysis confirmed in such hard ways, intel agencies cannot change the analytical conclusions until they have comparably hard evidence of sale, use, destruction, etc.... That created the context for the subsequent WMD intelligence. When you see them buying yellowcake, you know they already have a WMD program. You know they are getting technical help from elsewhere. So it elevates presumptions, to the point that it almost requires them.

One of my bird hunting buddies was THE analyst on such things at the time, the guy who blew the lid on A.Q. Khan and the Paki bomb. We discuss this all the time, as I was in the building at the same time (even though we didn't know one another at the time). He made news opposing Bush admin conclusions on Iraqi nuclear programs (to the point it ended his career). Even he does not question that Iraq did in fact have Chem/Bio capability.
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ShooterTX
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In reply to Redbrickbear • 7:31a, 10/20/23
Redbrickbear said:
KaiBear said:
boognish_bear said:
Pay back is a *****.

Just ask the Germans who elected Hitler.

Hindenburg?

[Hindenburg appointed Hitler as Chancellor, who immediately urged the dissolution of the Reichstag...Six days before the scheduled election date, the German parliament building was set alight in the Reichstag fire, allegedly by the Dutch Communist Marinus van der Lubbe. That event reduced the popularity of the KPD and enabled Hitler to persuade Hindenburg to pass the Reichstag Fire Decree as an emergency decree according to Article 48 of the Weimar Constitution. The emergency law removed many civil liberties and allowed the arrest of Ernst Thlmann and 4,000 other leaders and members of the KPD...consolidating the position of the Nazis.]

People always seem to forget that the Nazis never won an election by a majority of the German electorate.

Highest vote count they ever got was 43% in 1933 general election....57% of the German voting population opposed them and voted for other parties.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/March_1933_German_federal_election

In the 1930 general election the Nazi party only got 18% of the vote.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1930_German_federal_election
You know that Bill Clinton got about that same percentage of the vote in 1992. Are you saying that he wasn't the legit leader of the nation for those 8 years? He never got a majority... never.

The reality is that Hitler had far more supporters than detractors in Germany in the 1930s.
ShooterTX
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whiterock
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In reply to ShooterTX • 7:53a, 10/20/23
ShooterTX said:
Redbrickbear said:
KaiBear said:
boognish_bear said:
Pay back is a *****.

Just ask the Germans who elected Hitler.

Hindenburg?

[Hindenburg appointed Hitler as Chancellor, who immediately urged the dissolution of the Reichstag...Six days before the scheduled election date, the German parliament building was set alight in the Reichstag fire, allegedly by the Dutch Communist Marinus van der Lubbe. That event reduced the popularity of the KPD and enabled Hitler to persuade Hindenburg to pass the Reichstag Fire Decree as an emergency decree according to Article 48 of the Weimar Constitution. The emergency law removed many civil liberties and allowed the arrest of Ernst Thlmann and 4,000 other leaders and members of the KPD...consolidating the position of the Nazis.]

People always seem to forget that the Nazis never won an election by a majority of the German electorate.

Highest vote count they ever got was 43% in 1933 general election....57% of the German voting population opposed them and voted for other parties.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/March_1933_German_federal_election

In the 1930 general election the Nazi party only got 18% of the vote.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1930_German_federal_election
You know that Bill Clinton got about that same percentage of the vote in 1992. Are you saying that he wasn't the legit leader of the nation for those 8 years? He never got a majority... never.

The reality is that Hitler had far more supporters than detractors in Germany in the 1930s.
Not sure that part in bold is strictly true, but for sure he did not have enough detractors
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FLBear5630
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In reply to whiterock • 8:14a, 10/20/23
whiterock said:
FLBear5630 said:
Bear8084 said:
https://apnews.com/article/syria-ghouta-chemical-attack-sarin-f3477f4a212a88e671634c10b9e17037

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2023/08/21/syria-sarin-chemical-weapons-justice/

Except they did.
How can you say that? Mattis said there is no proof? Yet, you know?


I have no idea. If you can't prove ****, you can't say it happened.

Anyone on this site there? Seriously, I know Troops and Engineers in Iraq and Kuwait that had alarms go off. Engineers destroyed Chem Weapons in Desert Storm. Anyone on this site have a personal experience?
reading the intelligence reports following Gulf War I..... There were, literally, high speed chases in Baghdad, where UN inspectors (with Iraqi escorts) chased vehicles which had left compounds being inspected.

There was a clear analytical consensus of intel agencies all over the world at that time that Iraq had not only Chem/Bio weapons but the capability to manufacture their own. Literally no one questioned that. The evidence was overwhelming. Incontrovertible. Pictures of such being used IN Iraq on Kurdish civilians. Testing of the dead civilians, etc....

Where did it all go?

With such analysis confirmed in such hard ways, intel agencies cannot change the analytical conclusions until they have comparably hard evidence of sale, use, destruction, etc.... That created the context for the subsequent WMD intelligence. When you see them buying yellowcake, you know they already have a WMD program. You know they are getting technical help from elsewhere. So it elevates presumptions, to the point that it almost requires them.

One of my bird hunting buddies was THE analyst on such things at the time, the guy who blew the lid on A.Q. Khan and the Paki bomb. We discuss this all the time, as I was in the building at the same time (even though we didn't know one another at the time). He made news opposing Bush admin conclusions on Iraqi nuclear programs (to the point it ended his career). Even he does not question that Iraq did in fact have Chem/Bio capability.
I believe the Iraq stuff, I saw what those animals did in Kuwait and know guys that blew up depots. No doubt, everything you are saying is true and accurate.

What bothers me about Syria is the Mattis comments. Maybe I didn't read all of it, but it looks like they have no proof and the US is backing that. That was not the case in Iraq and the Gulf War, we were saying they were there and the others said no.
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historian
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In reply to Redbrickbear • 8:14a, 10/20/23
Redbrickbear said:
RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:
$14 billion proposed for Israel. $60 billion more proposed for Ukraine. $100 million proposed for the Palestine terrorists. These clowns are either going to bankrupt us or get us killed. Or both. And "clowns" applies to both parties in Congress.



But there was just not enough cash to build the border wall…Congress just could not spare it


[The Department of Homeland Security's internal estimate in early 2017, shortly after Trump took office, was that his proposed border wall would cost $21.6 billion and take 3.5 years to build.]

Even if those estimates were accurate (rare with the govt), imagine how much money could have been saved with effective border security. Not to mention lives & the various griefs caused by the invasion of illegals.
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historian
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In reply to whiterock • 8:15a, 10/20/23
Iraqi chemical weapons probably ended up in Syria.
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historian
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In reply to whiterock • 8:18a, 10/20/23
whiterock said:
ShooterTX said:
Redbrickbear said:
KaiBear said:
boognish_bear said:
Pay back is a *****.

Just ask the Germans who elected Hitler.

Hindenburg?

[Hindenburg appointed Hitler as Chancellor, who immediately urged the dissolution of the Reichstag...Six days before the scheduled election date, the German parliament building was set alight in the Reichstag fire, allegedly by the Dutch Communist Marinus van der Lubbe. That event reduced the popularity of the KPD and enabled Hitler to persuade Hindenburg to pass the Reichstag Fire Decree as an emergency decree according to Article 48 of the Weimar Constitution. The emergency law removed many civil liberties and allowed the arrest of Ernst Thlmann and 4,000 other leaders and members of the KPD...consolidating the position of the Nazis.]

People always seem to forget that the Nazis never won an election by a majority of the German electorate.

Highest vote count they ever got was 43% in 1933 general election....57% of the German voting population opposed them and voted for other parties.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/March_1933_German_federal_election

In the 1930 general election the Nazi party only got 18% of the vote.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1930_German_federal_election
You know that Bill Clinton got about that same percentage of the vote in 1992. Are you saying that he wasn't the legit leader of the nation for those 8 years? He never got a majority... never.

The reality is that Hitler had far more supporters than detractors in Germany in the 1930s.
Not sure that part in bold is strictly true, but for sure he did not have enough detractors

Most Germans opposed to Hitler's policies were too afraid to speak out. The Gestapo, concentration camps, and other abuses kept everyone in line. Just like in other totalitarian dictatorships. That should cause us to appreciate those who stood up to the regime in their own way, like the White Rose group in Munich. They were true heroes.
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nein51
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In reply to whiterock • 8:55a, 10/20/23
There were absolutely, with zero doubts, chemical weapons used in Iraq on Kurds by Iraqi forces.

The question, in retrospect, is where did the WMDs go? There was near 100% agreement from our intel forces they existed.

I also agree there's a very good chance some of those weapons ended up in Syria.
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sombear
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In reply to whiterock • 9:08a, 10/20/23
And, unless I missed it, nobody has mentioned that the highest levels of the Iraqi military establishment thought they still had chem/bio weapons. Field command, generals, and all the way up. They not only consistently said this in interviews but trained and equipped their troops for it.

There is much to question and criticize on other issues, but it always pissed me off when folks said we "lied" about WMDs.
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Redbrickbear
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In reply to historian • 9:10a, 10/20/23
historian said:
whiterock said:
ShooterTX said:
Redbrickbear said:
KaiBear said:
boognish_bear said:
Pay back is a *****.

Just ask the Germans who elected Hitler.

Hindenburg?

[Hindenburg appointed Hitler as Chancellor, who immediately urged the dissolution of the Reichstag...Six days before the scheduled election date, the German parliament building was set alight in the Reichstag fire, allegedly by the Dutch Communist Marinus van der Lubbe. That event reduced the popularity of the KPD and enabled Hitler to persuade Hindenburg to pass the Reichstag Fire Decree as an emergency decree according to Article 48 of the Weimar Constitution. The emergency law removed many civil liberties and allowed the arrest of Ernst Thlmann and 4,000 other leaders and members of the KPD...consolidating the position of the Nazis.]

People always seem to forget that the Nazis never won an election by a majority of the German electorate.

Highest vote count they ever got was 43% in 1933 general election....57% of the German voting population opposed them and voted for other parties.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/March_1933_German_federal_election

In the 1930 general election the Nazi party only got 18% of the vote.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1930_German_federal_election
You know that Bill Clinton got about that same percentage of the vote in 1992. Are you saying that he wasn't the legit leader of the nation for those 8 years? He never got a majority... never.

The reality is that Hitler had far more supporters than detractors in Germany in the 1930s.
Not sure that part in bold is strictly true, but for sure he did not have enough detractors

Most Germans opposed to Hitler's policies were too afraid to speak out. The Gestapo, concentration camps, and other abuses kept everyone in line. Just like in other totalitarian dictatorships. That should cause us to appreciate those who stood up to the regime in their own way, like the White Rose group in Munich. They were true heroes.

Which is why when people say "lets just bomb the hell out of Iran or Russia" we have to remember that a good portion of the population does not even support the government and within any dictatorship.....they are essential powerless to make any changes.

Hell we live in a two party system and Constitutional Republic....and yet we as average citizens have very limited ability to influence the policies and priorities of D.C.

Imagine what it would be like to be an average person in China under a 24-7 surveillance state and single party Communist rule
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RD2WINAGNBEAR86
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In reply to Redbrickbear • 9:49a, 10/20/23
Redbrickbear said:
RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:
$14 billion proposed for Israel. $60 billion more proposed for Ukraine. $100 million proposed for the Palestine terrorists. These clowns are either going to bankrupt us or get us killed. Or both. And "clowns" applies to both parties in Congress.



But there was just not enough cash to build the border wall…Congress just could not spare it


[The Department of Homeland Security's internal estimate in early 2017, shortly after Trump took office, was that his proposed border wall would cost $21.6 billion and take 3.5 years to build.]
Even crazier to think Congress would not spare $5 billion that Trump requested to build the border wall. It should be obvious to all that a wide open border is a part of the Democrat Party platform and has been for a long time now.
"Never underestimate Joe's ability to **** things up!"

-- Barack Obama
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