historian said:

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One could even say that Islam is demonic. All one has to consider is the barbarities they routinely commit, and have committed since Mohammad himself in the 7th century. October 7 was only the most recent example.

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Muhammad believed himself to be possessed by a demon and contemplated suicide while he received "revelations" in a cave.

It's not only Israel & the Palestinians:

https://stream.org/the-war-crimes-youre-not-hearing-about The War Crimes You're Not Hearing About

Mfw a colleague brings up Gaza pic.twitter.com/oLhQTrEqCn

— Ted (@ted_again_) November 8, 2023

I've been assured that our country is now stronger because of situations like this https://t.co/0PK4Ca06c1

— Oilfield Rando (@Oilfield_Rando) November 9, 2023

Pretty much confirms my observations…people
that like Palestine are obese liberal women…people that like Israel are mentally damaged Yankees.

I was taken aback by “I deployed to Afghanistan” here. No wonder we lost. pic.twitter.com/mjVqpzqko1

— Richard Hanania (@RichardHanania) November 11, 2023

https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/israeli-tanks-have-gaza-hospitals-surrounded-un-decries-hell-earth

Things like this do not help calm tensions.

Since Hamas uses hospitals as military bases I have no doubt they are all legitimate military targets. It's even possible the Israeli's have intelligence that they are holding some of the hostages there.

Realitybites said:

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https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/israeli-tanks-have-gaza-hospitals-surrounded-un-decries-hell-earth

Things like this do not help calm tensions.

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Hamas does not care about civilian deaths and injuries, except that they want them to use against their enemies in propaganda. Their continued overstatement of casualties along with their past staged videos only helps to prove this point. They can now throw in some real footage of damage and casualties around their bunkers and tunnels in order to claim verity for their propaganda. They have proven time and time again that the lives of their own people are expendable for their cause.

Originally, it included Jordan. The "Palestinians" (Arabs) have had multiple opportunities to have their own state & always rejected them because they included allowing the Jews to have Israel. Their genocidal hatred has prevented from doing what was in their own best interest over & over again.

Their primary objective has always been the complete destruction of the Jews. That's why negotiations are futile. Why negotiate with someone who wants you dead?

historian said:

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The "Palestinians" (Arabs) have had multiple opportunities to have their own state & always rejected them..

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1. I'm not sure why you put Palestinians in quotes. The Arabs of that land call themselves that are are recognized as a people.

Would you put "Israeli" in quotes and just call them Jews? The Jews of that land of course call themselves Israelis and are a recognized people.

Israelis are no more real or less real than the Palestinians…both 20th century created nationalities.

2. The much often talked about deal Arafat was offered in the late 90s was never that great.

The Palestinians probably should taken it but once I found the actual details it's far less appealing than presented.

Guy Noir said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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sombear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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Wrecks Quan Dough said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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Wrecks Quan Dough said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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sombear said:

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Realitybites said:

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sombear said:

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Have you visited Israel?

Christians are treated amazingly well in every respect.

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I have. One of the regrets I have is that at the time I went with an Evangelical group that skipped the Holy Sepulchre and the Via Dolorosa. The automatic elevators (they set them to run continuously, stopping on every floor) on the Sabbath were interesting, because Jews aren't supposed to do the work of pressing an elevator button on the sabbath. There are things you see - like off duty IDF in civilian clothes wandering around with their battle rifles - that you definitely don't see here. Oh, and you can't get a Cheeseburger because it violates Jewish dietary law.

Christian pilgrims do spend a good bit of money in Israel. In general, Secular Jews have a generally favorable disposition to Christian pilgrims and treat us well. Religious Jews on the other hand, well, you get to see why the Pharisee avoided the Samaritan.

Do a little research into what the Talmud teaches about Jesus vs the Koran. This is not an endorsement of either but it gives you some insight into what separates the thee Abrahamic religions.

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Yes, all kinds of interesting experiences in Israel.

I do think you're painting religious jews with a broad brush. You seem to have considerable knowledge in this area, and there is tremendous diversity among religious jews. I've spent a lot of time with religious jews, including living and working in the most Orthodox area in a major metro area. I've not had one negative experience.

I'm far from a religious scholar, but I know enough to know that Talmud references to Jesus are hotly debated to this day. But, regardless, I could care less. By definition, religions believe that other religions are full of it . . . .

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There are Hardi Jews that don't even believe in the State of Israel…aka they think the Torah prevents them from creating a State until the coming of the messiah.

And then there are secular Jews who are basically full on with blood lust for wiping out their racial enemies.

It's certainly complicated over there

Regarding calls for genocide and violence to wipe out entire populations, here are interviews with young Israelis who went to enjoy watching the sight of bombs falling on Gaza in 2014.

Clear off all the city, one said: just take it off the ground. "I'm a little bit fascist." pic.twitter.com/edfredIUI3

— Glenn Greenwald (@ggreenwald) November 6, 2023

holy sh*t pic.twitter.com/E7xV4ommTA

— Jackson Hinkle 🇺🇸 (@jacksonhinklle) November 6, 2023

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And not a single one of them launched a rocket or strapped a bomb vest on themselves to explode themselves around unsuspecting Gazans.

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Correct…They just vote for a government that will do it for them.

While keeping 3 million Palestinians in the West Bank under the military boot and endless occupation

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No, the Palestinians vote for that sort of government. I do not think that ever before in the history of the world have there been a people who, as an identifiable people group, remained refugees for 3 consecutive generations. The Jews were liquidated and forced out of Europe and became successful in America and Israel in one generation. The Vietnamese and Cubans come here on boats and are successful in one generation. Indians come here and are successful in one generation.

You might think that there is incentive, through the global government welfare received by the PA and Hamas, to perpetuate the victim status of their people.

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You seem to be lumping a lot of things together.

1. Did Jews getting massacred into Europe entitled them to take other peoples land? The Armenians getting slaughter by the Turks did not entitle them move somewhere else to take some other land for their own. (Either way....Israel was established by international agreement...so it exists now as a sovereign state and that has to be acknowledged)

2. Vietnamese and Cubans coming to American and being successful is because American Whites already created a extremely successful nation and are nice enough/kind enough to allow foreign peoples in to share in the wealth, civil government, lawful courts, protection of property, etc. that already exist here. If you are an ethnic/racial group that can not thrive in America you have some serious internal problems.

3. The Local Arabs around the region and the Israelis have never let the Palestinians become citizens (which of course opens up another discussion about why the local Arab States have never allowed that...or why Israel has not allowed that since racial Diversity is Strength or at least that is what we are constantly told)

4. None of these historic or present issues between the Israelis and the Palestinians make it our problem. Our elected leaders in Congress should stay out of this ethnic/racial conflict

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The threshold flaw here is that they did not "take other peoples land." That land had changed hands/populations numerous times and recently had been British, Jordan land, etc. Jews lived there historically (arguably first) and well into the 20th Century, despite being forced out by Palestinians/Arabs.

One can argue that Jews should not have been given any land, but that is a different argument entirely, and not many folks admit adopting it. A strong majority believes the partition was fair and just, and Israel accepted it.

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Its a semantic argument and one that is not actually that interesting.

Should the Ashkenazi Jews from Europe have come to the Levant to try and establish a State and pushed out the Arabs? Should the Mizrahi Jews of the middle east have been forced out from their land by other Arabs to move to Israel? etc.

What's done is done.

My point is that talking about the Holocaust or the Nakba is no longer really relevant (except for emotional reasons). Its been 75 years since those events and 3 generations of people have been born on both sides.

The world community has coalesced around a very reasonable position that the land that should be divided up between the Israelis and the Palestinians and that both should have States now.

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They had it. It was very fair

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Not accepting the '48 partition and losing a war against the Israelis was a major mistake...I have never said anything else...ok fair enough.

But today in 2023 what is supposed to be done with the 2 million Palestinians in Gaza that Israel has surrounded by concrete walls/barbed wire/military forts and the 3.4 million Palestinians in the West Bank they have under endless military occupation?

I get the feeling you guys want to come out and say "genocide them" or "ethnically cleanse the land of them" but for some reason yall are a little sheepish about coming out and saying it.

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The people in Gaza need to stop launching rockets into Israel. They need to stop sending terrorist into Israel and taking innocent people as hostages. Until that happens there will no trust and no independent state.

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Agree.

And the Israelis need to stop building illegal settlements in the West Bank, they need to stop militarily occupying the West Bank, they need to stop racial discrimination against Palestinians and daily harassing them and beating them when they protest…until that happens there is no trust in Israel being a partner in peace.

My point is that they are Arabs. Calling them Palestinians is propaganda just like calling any place in that region is. It's all about wiping Israel off the map and killing every single Jew. If they could, they would do October 7 over & over again until everyone of them was dead. They are Nazis.

Israel has ancient heritage. There is no comparison. To say they are a 20th century creation is historically ignorant.

historian said:

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Israel has ancient heritage. There is no comparison. To say they are a 20th century creation is historically ignorant.

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The kingdom of Israel has not existed since Assyria destroyed it in 721 BC

That was almost 3,000 years ago.

And even then it was a small Bronze Age kingdom and was not a state made up of almost 50% Ashkenazi Jews…since the Ashkenazi Jews did not even exist at the time.

But yes..some of the modern people in Israel (the Mizrahi Jews) have deep roots in the region and date to before the Arabs.

But of course some Palestinians have roots back before the Arabs to the canaanites and the philistines…many thousands of years ago

historian said:

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My point is that they are Arabs. Calling them Palestinians is propaganda just like calling any place in that region is. It's all about wiping Israel off the map and killing every single Jew... They are Nazis.

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By that reckoning the Jews that have moved there calling themselves Israelis is "propaganda" to legitimize their colonization and occupation of the land since the 20th century.

Saying that the Palestinians don't exist or that they are all "Nazis" is the kind of extremism psycho things racial Jewish racists in the settler communities say.

I assume you are not a radical jew so why do you say things like that?

I assume you are a White Christian posting from Texas? If so that is such a strange way to talk about this ethnic conflict on the other side of the world

Redbrickbear said:

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historian said:

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My point is that they are Arabs. Calling them Palestinians is propaganda just like calling any place in that region is. It's all about wiping Israel off the map and killing every single Jew... They are Nazis.

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By that reckoning the Jews that have moved there calling themselves Israelis is "propaganda" to legitimize their colonization and occupation of the land since the 20th century.

Saying that the Palestinians don't exist or that they are all "Nazis" is the kind of extremism psycho things racial Jewish racists in the settler communities say.

I assume you are not a radical jew so why do you say things like that?

I assume you are a White Christian posting from Texas? If so that is such a strange way to talk about this ethnic conflict on the other side of the world

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I call them Nazis because their primary objective is genocide of the Jews. There isn't anything more Nazi than that.

"Palestinians" is a made up modern label masking that the people are Arabs. The Israelis are descended from Israel, the grandson of Abraham. I am aware that there are many Jews of other ethnicities but some are of Hebrew heritage and their religion & culture traces back 4,000 years to Abraham. Anyone wanting to understand this should start with the book of Genesis.

historian said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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historian said:

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My point is that they are Arabs. Calling them Palestinians is propaganda just like calling any place in that region is. It's all about wiping Israel off the map and killing every single Jew... They are Nazis.

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By that reckoning the Jews that have moved there calling themselves Israelis is "propaganda" to legitimize their colonization and occupation of the land since the 20th century.

Saying that the Palestinians don't exist or that they are all "Nazis" is the kind of extremism psycho things racial Jewish racists in the settler communities say.

I assume you are not a radical jew so why do you say things like that?

I assume you are a White Christian posting from Texas? If so that is such a strange way to talk about this ethnic conflict on the other side of the world

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I call them Nazis because their primary objective is genocide of the Jews.

"Palestinians" is a made up modern label masking that the people are Arabs. The Israelis are descended from Israel…

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1. That is a ridiculous thing to say that all of the millions of Palestinians are just out to genocide the Jews.

It's an outlandish statement

2. Israelis are a modern nationality created post World War II…some of the jews there have ancient roots, others are descended from converts who have no ethnic lineage back to the time of the Bible at all.

Israeli identity and Palestinian identity are both creations of the 20th century.

Wrong in both counts. Saying it over & over again doesn't make it correct. However, it is a standard propaganda technique.

The Palestinian people support Hamas, voting them into power when they had the chance and the stated Fisk of that organization is genocide. Their leader reminded the world of that fact just this week. Obviously, there are some people in Gaza that are not supportive & we will never know the numbers or percentages. It's not like terrorists take polls. However, a significant part of the population do support them as demonstrated by the civilians that aided the terrorists in their attacks on October 7 & their attendance at rallies in large numbers.

historian said:

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Wrong in both counts. Saying it over & over again doesn't make it correct. However, it is a standard propaganda technique.

The Palestinian people support Hamas, voting them into power when they had the chance and the stated Fisk of that organization is genocide. Their leader reminded the world of that fact just this week. Obviously, there are some people in Gaza that are not supportive & we will never know the numbers or percentages. It's not like terrorists take polls. However, a significant part of the population do support them as demonstrated by the civilians that aided the terrorists in their attacks on October 7 & their attendance at rallies in large numbers.

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Let's take what you say at face value.

The people of Gaza are Hamas supporters…ok

What about the people in the West Bank…they didn't vote hamas into power. Why are they denied a State? Why do they have to live under a never ending Israeli military occupation?

The answer to your question is that they don't want one unless they can kill all the Jews, as I've already said. They don't deserve a state because they are the modern equivalent of Nazis. If you aren't going to pay attention you should stop responding with the same empty Hamas or Islamofascist propaganda.

historian said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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historian said:

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My point is that they are Arabs. Calling them Palestinians is propaganda just like calling any place in that region is. It's all about wiping Israel off the map and killing every single Jew... They are Nazis.

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By that reckoning the Jews that have moved there calling themselves Israelis is "propaganda" to legitimize their colonization and occupation of the land since the 20th century.

Saying that the Palestinians don't exist or that they are all "Nazis" is the kind of extremism psycho things racial Jewish racists in the settler communities say.

I assume you are not a radical jew so why do you say things like that?

I assume you are a White Christian posting from Texas? If so that is such a strange way to talk about this ethnic conflict on the other side of the world

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"Palestinians" is a made up modern label masking that the people are Arabs. The Israelis are descended from Israel, the grandson of Abraham. I am aware that there are many Jews of other ethnicities but some are of Hebrew heritage and their religion & culture traces back 4,000 years to Abraham. Anyone wanting to understand this should start with the book of Genesis.

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Brainwashed "conservatives" after you explain that the country currently named Israel has no connection to the Israel of the Bible pic.twitter.com/Qn0yXwvo9K

— Conscious Philosopher 🇷🇸 (@consciousphilos) November 11, 2023

historian said:

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Israel is doing more for the Palestinians than their own leaders, Hamas. Israel provided Gaza with energy, food, etc because their own leaders were singularly focused on obtaining weapons to kill Jews. Hamas is pure evil.

Here is a more recent example:

https://www.dailywire.com/news/watch-idf-protects-50000-palestinians-fleeing-northern-gaza-coordinates-safety-for-those-evacuating-hospital

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Correct

However those that hate Jews simply ignore the facts.

Quote:

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There isn't anything more Nazi than that.

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I absolutely hate people using the label "Nazi" when referring to modern political movements. And although I fall into the habit myself occasionally, it's intellectually lazy. The Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterparte was something tied to a specific place and a specific time. It had specific characteristics. Using the term creates all sorts of cognitive dissonance - like how Ukranian nationalists who espouse 21st century fascism can work with a Jewish president to commit national suicide.

Anti-Semitism - or perhaps more accurately Anti-Zionism for our day - isn't something that automatically has to be tied in to all fascist movements.

Speaking of fascism, has anyone bothered looking at the development of oligopolies and monopolies driven by corporate M&A activity along with the behavior of national police agencies in a formerly representative republic near you?

It has lots of connections. You are wrong. You might be the one who is brainwashed.

historian said:

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It has lots of connections. You are wrong. You might be the one who is brainwashed.

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Name the connections between a modern secular state created by Ashkenazi Jews from Europe in 1948 and the Bronze Age Kingdom of Israel 3,000 years ago…

Realitybites said:

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Quote:

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There isn't anything more Nazi than that.

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I absolutely hate people using the label "Nazi" when referring to modern political movements. And although I fall into the habit myself occasionally, it's intellectually lazy. The Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterparte was something tied to a specific place and a specific time. It had specific characteristics. Using the term creates all sorts of cognitive dissonance - like how Ukranian nationalists who espouse 21st century fascism can work with a Jewish president to commit national suicide.

Anti-Semitism - or perhaps more accurately Anti-Zionism for our day - isn't something that automatically has to be tied in to all fascist movements.

Speaking of fascism, has anyone bothered looking at the development of oligopolies and monopolies driven by corporate M&A activity along with the behavior of national police agencies in a formerly representative republic near you?

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I was making a valid historic comparison as someone who actually understands somewhat the intricacies of fascism, nazism, etc. Still, most people are aware of some basic facts about the Nazis including the Holocaust.

You do have a valid point about fascism: there are many varieties, historic & modern, but they do have some common features. Unfortunately, too many of them are part of modern America. Some have looked into corporate fascism in modern America (although I don't think with that label) and the fascistic aspects of modern national police agencies. I do not know of any systematic investigation of these subjects.

Redbrickbear said:

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historian said:

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It has lots of connections. You are wrong. You might be the one who is brainwashed.

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Name the connections between a modern secular state created by Ashkenazi Jews from Europe in 1948 and the Bronze Age Kingdom of Israel 3,000 years ago…

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I already did: the cultural ties. I realize that modern Judaism, the Hebrew language, etc are significantly different than their ancient forerunners but the same is true for Latin, Greek, Chinese, & every other culture. The roots are still there along with the connections, however limited.

historian said:

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Realitybites said:

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Quote:

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There isn't anything more Nazi than that.

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I absolutely hate people using the label "Nazi" when referring to modern political movements. And although I fall into the habit myself occasionally, it's intellectually lazy. The Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterparte was something tied to a specific place and a specific time. It had specific characteristics. Using the term creates all sorts of cognitive dissonance - like how Ukranian nationalists who espouse 21st century fascism can work with a Jewish president to commit national suicide.

Anti-Semitism - or perhaps more accurately Anti-Zionism for our day - isn't something that automatically has to be tied in to all fascist movements.

Speaking of fascism, has anyone bothered looking at the development of oligopolies and monopolies driven by corporate M&A activity along with the behavior of national police agencies in a formerly representative republic near you?

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I was making a valid historic comparison as someone who actually understands somewhat the intricacies of fascism, nazism, etc. Still, most people are aware of some basic facts about the Nazis including the Holocaust.

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All Palestinians are Nazis is propaganda and I think you know it

🇵🇸🇮🇱 This video is from 1989.

“It’s better to lose your life than to live under occupation.” pic.twitter.com/bvDjV5WhdV

— Censored Men (@CensoredMen) November 12, 2023