Realitybites said:

---

Link to Interview

It is a given that most people haven't heard of the USS Liberty. It's something that is generally glossed over in history classes, if it is taught at all. Or at least it used to be that way.

The official explanation is it was a case of mistaken identity that led to the death of 34 American servicemen in an attack that lasted far longer - and with multiple waves - than a case of mistaken identity would allow for.

Friendly fire happens. Pat Tillman was the most recent well known case of this. The USS Liberty attack was absolutely not a case of friendly fire.

Go watch the video, and remember the casualties on that ship next time someone starts advocating for war in Ukraine, Syria, Iran, or elsewhere.

---

Most people haven't heard of it? It was covered in my rural Indiana high school and again in college.

It remains unclear exactly what happened and why.

But let's say the absolute worst is true. Why should that affect foreign policy 57 years later? We are strong allies with a number of former enemies.

President-elect Trump on conversation with Prime Minister @netanyahu: "I'll be very available on January 20...I gave warning that if these hostages aren't back home by that date, all hell's going to break out." pic.twitter.com/gmlWyWmxg5

— CSPAN (@cspan) December 16, 2024

sombear said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

Link to Interview

It is a given that most people haven't heard of the USS Liberty. It's something that is generally glossed over in history classes, if it is taught at all. Or at least it used to be that way.

The official explanation is it was a case of mistaken identity that led to the death of 34 American servicemen in an attack that lasted far longer - and with multiple waves - than a case of mistaken identity would allow for.

Friendly fire happens. Pat Tillman was the most recent well known case of this. The USS Liberty attack was absolutely not a case of friendly fire.

Go watch the video, and remember the casualties on that ship next time someone starts advocating for war in Ukraine, Syria, Iran, or elsewhere.

---

Most people haven't heard of it? It was covered in my rural Indiana high school and again in college.

---

Proof?

It was certainly not covered in my Texas rural public school

Nor was it ever covered at Baylor (I have a history minor)

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

Link to Interview

It is a given that most people haven't heard of the USS Liberty. It's something that is generally glossed over in history classes, if it is taught at all. Or at least it used to be that way.

The official explanation is it was a case of mistaken identity that led to the death of 34 American servicemen in an attack that lasted far longer - and with multiple waves - than a case of mistaken identity would allow for.

Friendly fire happens. Pat Tillman was the most recent well known case of this. The USS Liberty attack was absolutely not a case of friendly fire.

Go watch the video, and remember the casualties on that ship next time someone starts advocating for war in Ukraine, Syria, Iran, or elsewhere.

---

Most people haven't heard of it? It was covered in my rural Indiana high school and again in college.

---

Proof?

It was certainly not covered in my Texas rural public school

Nor was it ever covered at Baylor (I have a history minor)

---

I have no proof. My basketball coach in Indiana also was my primary history teacher junior and senior years 1986-87. He spent a fair amount of time on Israel, perhaps b/c rural Indiana is heavy fundamentalist/evangelical, or maybe he just understood the importance of the middle east. He was mostly pro-Israel but tried to present the other side also.

I misspoke on college. I was engineering undergrad, so not much room for Israel . . . . It was grad school at University of Michigan. Israel was an area of focus in poli sci/history courses. I was in the poli sci PhD program. Liberty was intensely debated in more than one course.

I am not arguing it is standard public school curriculum. But I've never had a substantive discussion on Israel with someone who had never heard of it.

The_barBEARian said:

---

sombear said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

Link to Interview

It is a given that most people haven't heard of the USS Liberty. It's something that is generally glossed over in history classes, if it is taught at all. Or at least it used to be that way.

The official explanation is it was a case of mistaken identity that led to the death of 34 American servicemen in an attack that lasted far longer - and with multiple waves - than a case of mistaken identity would allow for.

Friendly fire happens. Pat Tillman was the most recent well known case of this. The USS Liberty attack was absolutely not a case of friendly fire.

Go watch the video, and remember the casualties on that ship next time someone starts advocating for war in Ukraine, Syria, Iran, or elsewhere.

---

Most people haven't heard of it? It was covered in my rural Indiana high school and again in college.

It remains unclear exactly what happened and why.

But let's say the absolute worst is true. Why should that affect foreign policy 57 years later? We are strong allies with a number of former enemies.

---

When is Israel going to pay back the trillion dollars the American tax payer has given them? We sure could use the money with our historic debt-to-GDP.

Allies pay back their debts.

Enemies do not.

---

Israel just utterly destroyed two Iranian proxies which have killed thousands of Amcits and currently hold several hostage. That campaign also denied the Syrian regime of an ally it depended upon to defend the line of advance into Damascus, causing the fall of the Assad regime, an Iranian ally who has been on the State Sponsor of Terrorism list since its inception decades ago....for using terrorism as an instrument of state policy against the USA and its allies. We did not risk a single US soldier to help Israel. All we did was sell them arms/ammo, which got real life battlefield testing.

What's that worth to you?

Redbrickbear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

The_barBEARian said:

---

sombear said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

Link to Interview

It is a given that most people haven't heard of the USS Liberty. It's something that is generally glossed over in history classes, if it is taught at all. Or at least it used to be that way.

The official explanation is it was a case of mistaken identity that led to the death of 34 American servicemen in an attack that lasted far longer - and with multiple waves - than a case of mistaken identity would allow for.

Friendly fire happens. Pat Tillman was the most recent well known case of this. The USS Liberty attack was absolutely not a case of friendly fire.

Go watch the video, and remember the casualties on that ship next time someone starts advocating for war in Ukraine, Syria, Iran, or elsewhere.

---

Most people haven't heard of it? It was covered in my rural Indiana high school and again in college.

It remains unclear exactly what happened and why.

But let's say the absolute worst is true. Why should that affect foreign policy 57 years later? We are strong allies with a number of former enemies.

---

When is Israel going to pay back the trillion dollars the American tax payer has given them? We sure could use the money with our historic debt-to-GDP.

Allies pay back their debts.

Enemies do not.

---

Israel just utterly destroyed two Iranian proxies which have killed thousands of Amcits and currently hold several hostage. That campaign also denied the Syrian regime of an ally it depended upon to defend the line of advance into Damascus, causing the fall of the Assad regime, an Iranian ally who has been on the State Sponsor of Terrorism...

---

Sure...100% correct

But don't act like they did it for America

Israel acts to the benefit of Israel only.....

---

That's what countries are supposed to do, no? Source: MAGA.

sombear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

The_barBEARian said:

---

sombear said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

Link to Interview

It is a given that most people haven't heard of the USS Liberty. It's something that is generally glossed over in history classes, if it is taught at all. Or at least it used to be that way.

The official explanation is it was a case of mistaken identity that led to the death of 34 American servicemen in an attack that lasted far longer - and with multiple waves - than a case of mistaken identity would allow for.

Friendly fire happens. Pat Tillman was the most recent well known case of this. The USS Liberty attack was absolutely not a case of friendly fire.

Go watch the video, and remember the casualties on that ship next time someone starts advocating for war in Ukraine, Syria, Iran, or elsewhere.

---

Most people haven't heard of it? It was covered in my rural Indiana high school and again in college.

It remains unclear exactly what happened and why.

But let's say the absolute worst is true. Why should that affect foreign policy 57 years later? We are strong allies with a number of former enemies.

---

When is Israel going to pay back the trillion dollars the American tax payer has given them? We sure could use the money with our historic debt-to-GDP.

Allies pay back their debts.

Enemies do not.

---

Israel just utterly destroyed two Iranian proxies which have killed thousands of Amcits and currently hold several hostage. That campaign also denied the Syrian regime of an ally it depended upon to defend the line of advance into Damascus, causing the fall of the Assad regime, an Iranian ally who has been on the State Sponsor of Terrorism...

---

Sure...100% correct

But don't act like they did it for America

Israel acts to the benefit of Israel only.....

---

That's what countries are supposed to do, no? Source: MAGA.

---

Exactly the issue people have with DC and the current political class there

(spending vast sums of tax payer money, time, resources, and rhetoric on peoples and countries other than the USA)

I have no problem with Tel Aviv putting Israel first....as long as well all agree what the relationship is in reality

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

The_barBEARian said:

---

sombear said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

Link to Interview

It is a given that most people haven't heard of the USS Liberty. It's something that is generally glossed over in history classes, if it is taught at all. Or at least it used to be that way.

The official explanation is it was a case of mistaken identity that led to the death of 34 American servicemen in an attack that lasted far longer - and with multiple waves - than a case of mistaken identity would allow for.

Friendly fire happens. Pat Tillman was the most recent well known case of this. The USS Liberty attack was absolutely not a case of friendly fire.

Go watch the video, and remember the casualties on that ship next time someone starts advocating for war in Ukraine, Syria, Iran, or elsewhere.

---

Most people haven't heard of it? It was covered in my rural Indiana high school and again in college.

It remains unclear exactly what happened and why.

But let's say the absolute worst is true. Why should that affect foreign policy 57 years later? We are strong allies with a number of former enemies.

---

When is Israel going to pay back the trillion dollars the American tax payer has given them? We sure could use the money with our historic debt-to-GDP.

Allies pay back their debts.

Enemies do not.

---

Israel just utterly destroyed two Iranian proxies which have killed thousands of Amcits and currently hold several hostage. That campaign also denied the Syrian regime of an ally it depended upon to defend the line of advance into Damascus, causing the fall of the Assad regime, an Iranian ally who has been on the State Sponsor of Terrorism...

---

Sure...100% correct

But don't act like they did it for America

Israel acts to the benefit of Israel only.....

---

That's what countries are supposed to do, no? Source: MAGA.

---

Exactly the issue people have with DC and the current political class there

(spending vast sums of tax payer money, time, resources, and rhetoric on peoples and countries other than the USA)

I have no problem with Tel Aviv putting Israel first....as long as well all agree what the relationship is in reality

---

Sure but sometimes what's good for one country also is good for others. And I (and our government) believe in most cases what is good for Israel is good for us. Israel sends us intel and tech because it believes it will ultimately help them. We send intel, weapons, and money to other countries because we believe it will ultimately help us, whether militarily or economically.

They key in each case is determining what the real value proposition is.

sombear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

The_barBEARian said:

---

sombear said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

Link to Interview

It is a given that most people haven't heard of the USS Liberty. It's something that is generally glossed over in history classes, if it is taught at all. Or at least it used to be that way.

The official explanation is it was a case of mistaken identity that led to the death of 34 American servicemen in an attack that lasted far longer - and with multiple waves - than a case of mistaken identity would allow for.

Friendly fire happens. Pat Tillman was the most recent well known case of this. The USS Liberty attack was absolutely not a case of friendly fire.

Go watch the video, and remember the casualties on that ship next time someone starts advocating for war in Ukraine, Syria, Iran, or elsewhere.

---

Most people haven't heard of it? It was covered in my rural Indiana high school and again in college.

It remains unclear exactly what happened and why.

But let's say the absolute worst is true. Why should that affect foreign policy 57 years later? We are strong allies with a number of former enemies.

---

When is Israel going to pay back the trillion dollars the American tax payer has given them? We sure could use the money with our historic debt-to-GDP.

Allies pay back their debts.

Enemies do not.

---

Israel just utterly destroyed two Iranian proxies which have killed thousands of Amcits and currently hold several hostage. That campaign also denied the Syrian regime of an ally it depended upon to defend the line of advance into Damascus, causing the fall of the Assad regime, an Iranian ally who has been on the State Sponsor of Terrorism...

---

Sure...100% correct

But don't act like they did it for America

Israel acts to the benefit of Israel only.....

---

That's what countries are supposed to do, no? Source: MAGA.

---

Exactly the issue people have with DC and the current political class there

(spending vast sums of tax payer money, time, resources, and rhetoric on peoples and countries other than the USA)

I have no problem with Tel Aviv putting Israel first....as long as well all agree what the relationship is in reality

---

Sure but sometimes what's good for one country also is good for others. And I (and our government) believe in most cases what is good for Israel is good for us.

---

Leaving out the fact that Israel has a massively powerful lobbying group inside the USA designed to push their interests in our Federal government.

https://readsludge.com/2024/08/27/aipac-officially-surpasses-100-million-in-spending-on-2024-elections/

To the tune of $100 million each election cycle

Many people feel that warps the process of determining if this relationship is America first or Israel first

whiterock said:

---

The_barBEARian said:

---

sombear said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

Link to Interview

It is a given that most people haven't heard of the USS Liberty. It's something that is generally glossed over in history classes, if it is taught at all. Or at least it used to be that way.

The official explanation is it was a case of mistaken identity that led to the death of 34 American servicemen in an attack that lasted far longer - and with multiple waves - than a case of mistaken identity would allow for.

Friendly fire happens. Pat Tillman was the most recent well known case of this. The USS Liberty attack was absolutely not a case of friendly fire.

Go watch the video, and remember the casualties on that ship next time someone starts advocating for war in Ukraine, Syria, Iran, or elsewhere.

---

Most people haven't heard of it? It was covered in my rural Indiana high school and again in college.

It remains unclear exactly what happened and why.

But let's say the absolute worst is true. Why should that affect foreign policy 57 years later? We are strong allies with a number of former enemies.

---

When is Israel going to pay back the trillion dollars the American tax payer has given them? We sure could use the money with our historic debt-to-GDP.

Allies pay back their debts.

Enemies do not.

---

Israel just utterly destroyed two Iranian proxies which have killed thousands of Amcits and currently hold several hostage. That campaign also denied the Syrian regime of an ally it depended upon to defend the line of advance into Damascus, causing the fall of the Assad regime, an Iranian ally who has been on the State Sponsor of Terrorism list since its inception decades ago....for using terrorism as an instrument of state policy against the USA and its allies. We did not risk a single US soldier to help Israel. All we did was sell them arms/ammo, which got real life battlefield testing.

What's that worth to you?

---

You mean the state sponsor of terrorism list - 7 countries in 5 years - that Netanyahu put together under the Bush Jr admin?

First, I dont count dual citizens as real citizens. Dual citizenship did not exist until the late 70ties when Jews pushed congress to allow them to hold Israeli citizenship. So when people bring up American hostages I correct them and remind them these are Israeli hostages and many real, legacy Americans agree with me.

Second, pretty much all of the American causalities caused Shia/Iranian proxies were folks who volunteered to work as mercenaries in the middle east for Israeli interests. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

Sunni terrorism promoted by the Saudis is far more odious. They pick soft targets and kill far more civilians. Yet you support the Sunni terrorists who now control Syria and consider Saudi Arabia an ally of the United States...

Third, we could get real battlefield testing against the cartels in Mexico. They are a far greater threat to most Americans than Iranians.

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

The_barBEARian said:

---

sombear said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

Link to Interview

It is a given that most people haven't heard of the USS Liberty. It's something that is generally glossed over in history classes, if it is taught at all. Or at least it used to be that way.

The official explanation is it was a case of mistaken identity that led to the death of 34 American servicemen in an attack that lasted far longer - and with multiple waves - than a case of mistaken identity would allow for.

Friendly fire happens. Pat Tillman was the most recent well known case of this. The USS Liberty attack was absolutely not a case of friendly fire.

Go watch the video, and remember the casualties on that ship next time someone starts advocating for war in Ukraine, Syria, Iran, or elsewhere.

---

Most people haven't heard of it? It was covered in my rural Indiana high school and again in college.

It remains unclear exactly what happened and why.

But let's say the absolute worst is true. Why should that affect foreign policy 57 years later? We are strong allies with a number of former enemies.

---

When is Israel going to pay back the trillion dollars the American tax payer has given them? We sure could use the money with our historic debt-to-GDP.

Allies pay back their debts.

Enemies do not.

---

Israel just utterly destroyed two Iranian proxies which have killed thousands of Amcits and currently hold several hostage. That campaign also denied the Syrian regime of an ally it depended upon to defend the line of advance into Damascus, causing the fall of the Assad regime, an Iranian ally who has been on the State Sponsor of Terrorism...

---

Sure...100% correct

But don't act like they did it for America

Israel acts to the benefit of Israel only.....

---

That's what countries are supposed to do, no? Source: MAGA.

---

Exactly the issue people have with DC and the current political class there

(spending vast sums of tax payer money, time, resources, and rhetoric on peoples and countries other than the USA)

I have no problem with Tel Aviv putting Israel first....as long as well all agree what the relationship is in reality

---

Sure but sometimes what's good for one country also is good for others. And I (and our government) believe in most cases what is good for Israel is good for us.

---

Leaving out the fact that Israel has a massively powerful lobbying group inside the USA designed to push their interests in our Federal government.

https://readsludge.com/2024/08/27/aipac-officially-surpasses-100-million-in-spending-on-2024-elections/

To the tune of $100 million each election cycle

Many people feel that warps the process of determining if this relationship is America first or Israel first

---

I know it's out of fashion, but I've never bought into the lobbying influence angle, whether it's Israel, any other country, industry, or interest group. All significant players (countries, industries, and interest groups) lobby and pays big $. I used to work campaigns. I never knew a politician who changed their mind based on who paid the most money. They just accepted money from everyone.

When politicians change their mind, they do so based on votes. And the Jewish vote in the vast majority of the U.S. is either not significant or is not moveable.

sombear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

The_barBEARian said:

---

sombear said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

Link to Interview

It is a given that most people haven't heard of the USS Liberty. It's something that is generally glossed over in history classes, if it is taught at all. Or at least it used to be that way.

The official explanation is it was a case of mistaken identity that led to the death of 34 American servicemen in an attack that lasted far longer - and with multiple waves - than a case of mistaken identity would allow for.

Friendly fire happens. Pat Tillman was the most recent well known case of this. The USS Liberty attack was absolutely not a case of friendly fire.

Go watch the video, and remember the casualties on that ship next time someone starts advocating for war in Ukraine, Syria, Iran, or elsewhere.

---

Most people haven't heard of it? It was covered in my rural Indiana high school and again in college.

It remains unclear exactly what happened and why.

But let's say the absolute worst is true. Why should that affect foreign policy 57 years later? We are strong allies with a number of former enemies.

---

When is Israel going to pay back the trillion dollars the American tax payer has given them? We sure could use the money with our historic debt-to-GDP.

Allies pay back their debts.

Enemies do not.

---

Israel just utterly destroyed two Iranian proxies which have killed thousands of Amcits and currently hold several hostage. That campaign also denied the Syrian regime of an ally it depended upon to defend the line of advance into Damascus, causing the fall of the Assad regime, an Iranian ally who has been on the State Sponsor of Terrorism...

---

Sure...100% correct

But don't act like they did it for America

Israel acts to the benefit of Israel only.....

---

That's what countries are supposed to do, no? Source: MAGA.

---

Exactly the issue people have with DC and the current political class there

(spending vast sums of tax payer money, time, resources, and rhetoric on peoples and countries other than the USA)

I have no problem with Tel Aviv putting Israel first....as long as well all agree what the relationship is in reality

---

Sure but sometimes what's good for one country also is good for others. And I (and our government) believe in most cases what is good for Israel is good for us.

---

Leaving out the fact that Israel has a massively powerful lobbying group inside the USA designed to push their interests in our Federal government.

https://readsludge.com/2024/08/27/aipac-officially-surpasses-100-million-in-spending-on-2024-elections/

To the tune of $100 million each election cycle

Many people feel that warps the process of determining if this relationship is America first or Israel first

---

I know it's out of fashion, but I've never bought into the lobbying influence angle, whether it's Israel, any other country, industry, or interest group. All significant players (countries, industries, and interest groups) lobby and pays big $. I used to work campaigns. I never knew a politician who changed their mind based on who paid the most money. They just accepted money from everyone.

---

I did not expect you to go with the argument that "lobbying does not work"

Foreign governments, Big businesses, and activist groups are spending billions each year for no reason....amazing.

[In 2023, the total lobbying spending in the United States amounted to $4.26 billion U.S. dollars]

https://www.statista.com/statistics/257337/total-lobbying-spending-in-the-us/

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

The_barBEARian said:

---

sombear said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

Link to Interview

It is a given that most people haven't heard of the USS Liberty. It's something that is generally glossed over in history classes, if it is taught at all. Or at least it used to be that way.

The official explanation is it was a case of mistaken identity that led to the death of 34 American servicemen in an attack that lasted far longer - and with multiple waves - than a case of mistaken identity would allow for.

Friendly fire happens. Pat Tillman was the most recent well known case of this. The USS Liberty attack was absolutely not a case of friendly fire.

Go watch the video, and remember the casualties on that ship next time someone starts advocating for war in Ukraine, Syria, Iran, or elsewhere.

---

Most people haven't heard of it? It was covered in my rural Indiana high school and again in college.

It remains unclear exactly what happened and why.

But let's say the absolute worst is true. Why should that affect foreign policy 57 years later? We are strong allies with a number of former enemies.

---

When is Israel going to pay back the trillion dollars the American tax payer has given them? We sure could use the money with our historic debt-to-GDP.

Allies pay back their debts.

Enemies do not.

---

Israel just utterly destroyed two Iranian proxies which have killed thousands of Amcits and currently hold several hostage. That campaign also denied the Syrian regime of an ally it depended upon to defend the line of advance into Damascus, causing the fall of the Assad regime, an Iranian ally who has been on the State Sponsor of Terrorism...

---

Sure...100% correct

But don't act like they did it for America

Israel acts to the benefit of Israel only.....

---

That's what countries are supposed to do, no? Source: MAGA.

---

Exactly the issue people have with DC and the current political class there

(spending vast sums of tax payer money, time, resources, and rhetoric on peoples and countries other than the USA)

I have no problem with Tel Aviv putting Israel first....as long as well all agree what the relationship is in reality

---

Sure but sometimes what's good for one country also is good for others. And I (and our government) believe in most cases what is good for Israel is good for us.

---

Leaving out the fact that Israel has a massively powerful lobbying group inside the USA designed to push their interests in our Federal government.

https://readsludge.com/2024/08/27/aipac-officially-surpasses-100-million-in-spending-on-2024-elections/

To the tune of $100 million each election cycle

Many people feel that warps the process of determining if this relationship is America first or Israel first

---

I know it's out of fashion, but I've never bought into the lobbying influence angle, whether it's Israel, any other country, industry, or interest group. All significant players (countries, industries, and interest groups) lobby and pays big $. I used to work campaigns. I never knew a politician who changed their mind based on who paid the most money. They just accepted money from everyone.

---

I did not expect you to go with the argument that "lobbying does not work"

Foreign governments, Big businesses, and activist groups are spending billions each year for no reason....amazing.

[In 2023, the total lobbying spending in the United States amounted to $4.26 billion U.S. dollars]

https://www.statista.com/statistics/257337/total-lobbying-spending-in-the-us/

---

It all evens out

Quote:

---

It remains unclear exactly what happened and why.

---

If you listen to the interview, it's perfectly clear what happened.

Redbrickbear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

The_barBEARian said:

---

sombear said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

Link to Interview

It is a given that most people haven't heard of the USS Liberty. It's something that is generally glossed over in history classes, if it is taught at all. Or at least it used to be that way.

The official explanation is it was a case of mistaken identity that led to the death of 34 American servicemen in an attack that lasted far longer - and with multiple waves - than a case of mistaken identity would allow for.

Friendly fire happens. Pat Tillman was the most recent well known case of this. The USS Liberty attack was absolutely not a case of friendly fire.

Go watch the video, and remember the casualties on that ship next time someone starts advocating for war in Ukraine, Syria, Iran, or elsewhere.

---

Most people haven't heard of it? It was covered in my rural Indiana high school and again in college.

It remains unclear exactly what happened and why.

But let's say the absolute worst is true. Why should that affect foreign policy 57 years later? We are strong allies with a number of former enemies.

---

When is Israel going to pay back the trillion dollars the American tax payer has given them? We sure could use the money with our historic debt-to-GDP.

Allies pay back their debts.

Enemies do not.

---

Israel just utterly destroyed two Iranian proxies which have killed thousands of Amcits and currently hold several hostage. That campaign also denied the Syrian regime of an ally it depended upon to defend the line of advance into Damascus, causing the fall of the Assad regime, an Iranian ally who has been on the State Sponsor of Terrorism...

---

Sure...100% correct

But don't act like they did it for America

Israel acts to the benefit of Israel only.....

---

It benefits us almost as much as it benefits Israel, the only difference being it's an existential struggle for Israel and not quite that for us. That makes them the perfect proxy - one who is desperate and needs us badly. That our interests align so seamlessly is a big factor, too....from geopolitics to philosophy. Israel is a part of Western Culture; the Jewish faith is as arguably an even bigger foundation stone of western civilization than Rome or Greece.

Pre-1980 Iran was a very reliable proxy like Israel, too. A Shiite country surrounded by antagonistic Sunni countries, as well as a contiguous border with the USSR. Made them a very motivated ally. That is why Obama and Biden courted them so hard, foolishly hard. They wanted to flip them over to our side. And it was profoundly stupid, as the current regime is ideologically rooted in hatred of the West in general and USA in particular. As we have seen, no amount of inducements moved them an inch toward us and a lot more than that in the wrong direction.

Obama/Biden policy on Iran was a real head scratcher. How could they be so disconnected from reality? Without regime change in Tehran, Iran will be what it has been since 1980 - a weak but fervent antagonist seeking to destabilize all our arrangements.

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

The_barBEARian said:

---

sombear said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

Link to Interview

It is a given that most people haven't heard of the USS Liberty. It's something that is generally glossed over in history classes, if it is taught at all. Or at least it used to be that way.

The official explanation is it was a case of mistaken identity that led to the death of 34 American servicemen in an attack that lasted far longer - and with multiple waves - than a case of mistaken identity would allow for.

Friendly fire happens. Pat Tillman was the most recent well known case of this. The USS Liberty attack was absolutely not a case of friendly fire.

Go watch the video, and remember the casualties on that ship next time someone starts advocating for war in Ukraine, Syria, Iran, or elsewhere.

---

Most people haven't heard of it? It was covered in my rural Indiana high school and again in college.

It remains unclear exactly what happened and why.

But let's say the absolute worst is true. Why should that affect foreign policy 57 years later? We are strong allies with a number of former enemies.

---

When is Israel going to pay back the trillion dollars the American tax payer has given them? We sure could use the money with our historic debt-to-GDP.

Allies pay back their debts.

Enemies do not.

---

Israel just utterly destroyed two Iranian proxies which have killed thousands of Amcits and currently hold several hostage. That campaign also denied the Syrian regime of an ally it depended upon to defend the line of advance into Damascus, causing the fall of the Assad regime, an Iranian ally who has been on the State Sponsor of Terrorism...

---

Sure...100% correct

But don't act like they did it for America

Israel acts to the benefit of Israel only.....

---

It benefits us almost as much as it benefits Israel, the only difference being it's an existential struggle for Israel and not quite that for us. That makes them the perfect proxy - one who is desperate and needs us badly. That our interests align so seamlessly is a big factor, too....from geopolitics to philosophy. Israel is a part of Western Culture; the Jewish faith is as arguably an even bigger foundation stone of western civilization than Rome or Greece.

Pre-1980 Iran was a very reliable proxy like Israel, too. A Shiite country surrounded by antagonistic Sunni countries, as well as a contiguous border with the USSR. Made them a very motivated ally. That is why Obama and Biden courted them so hard, foolishly hard. They wanted to flip them over to our side. And it was profoundly stupid, as the current regime is ideologically rooted in hatred of the West in general and USA in particular. As we have seen, no amount of inducements moved them an inch toward us and a lot more than that in the wrong direction.

Obama/Biden policy on Iran was a real head scratcher. How could they be so disconnected from reality? Without regime change in Tehran, Iran will be what it has been since 1980 - a weak but fervent antagonist seeking to destabilize all our arrangements.

---

Israel is part of western culture?

The Jewish faith is the biggest foundation stone in western civilization???

My god... you Boomercons are the most brainwashed individuals on the planet.

The Jewish faith has always been like oil and water with western civilization, which is why whereever Jewish enclaves have existed, there has always been friction with the native populations of Europe.... Russia, Poland, Germany, Britain, France, and Spain

The_barBEARian said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

The_barBEARian said:

---

sombear said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

Link to Interview

It is a given that most people haven't heard of the USS Liberty. It's something that is generally glossed over in history classes, if it is taught at all. Or at least it used to be that way.

The official explanation is it was a case of mistaken identity that led to the death of 34 American servicemen in an attack that lasted far longer - and with multiple waves - than a case of mistaken identity would allow for.

Friendly fire happens. Pat Tillman was the most recent well known case of this. The USS Liberty attack was absolutely not a case of friendly fire.

Go watch the video, and remember the casualties on that ship next time someone starts advocating for war in Ukraine, Syria, Iran, or elsewhere.

---

Most people haven't heard of it? It was covered in my rural Indiana high school and again in college.

It remains unclear exactly what happened and why.

But let's say the absolute worst is true. Why should that affect foreign policy 57 years later? We are strong allies with a number of former enemies.

---

When is Israel going to pay back the trillion dollars the American tax payer has given them? We sure could use the money with our historic debt-to-GDP.

Allies pay back their debts.

Enemies do not.

---

Israel just utterly destroyed two Iranian proxies which have killed thousands of Amcits and currently hold several hostage. That campaign also denied the Syrian regime of an ally it depended upon to defend the line of advance into Damascus, causing the fall of the Assad regime, an Iranian ally who has been on the State Sponsor of Terrorism...

---

Sure...100% correct

But don't act like they did it for America

Israel acts to the benefit of Israel only.....

---

It benefits us almost as much as it benefits Israel, the only difference being it's an existential struggle for Israel and not quite that for us. That makes them the perfect proxy - one who is desperate and needs us badly. That our interests align so seamlessly is a big factor, too....from geopolitics to philosophy. Israel is a part of Western Culture; the Jewish faith is as arguably an even bigger foundation stone of western civilization than Rome or Greece.

Pre-1980 Iran was a very reliable proxy like Israel, too. A Shiite country surrounded by antagonistic Sunni countries, as well as a contiguous border with the USSR. Made them a very motivated ally. That is why Obama and Biden courted them so hard, foolishly hard. They wanted to flip them over to our side. And it was profoundly stupid, as the current regime is ideologically rooted in hatred of the West in general and USA in particular. As we have seen, no amount of inducements moved them an inch toward us and a lot more than that in the wrong direction.

Obama/Biden policy on Iran was a real head scratcher. How could they be so disconnected from reality? Without regime change in Tehran, Iran will be what it has been since 1980 - a weak but fervent antagonist seeking to destabilize all our arrangements.

---

Israel is part of western culture?

---

It seems they are Western adjacent but distinctly different

[Israel could be considered a unique state with its own civilization, Huntington writes, but one which is similar to the West.]

I imagine if at any point the European descended Ashkenazi ever lose their place as the economic/political elite of the country it will rapidly lose its more Western characteristics

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

The_barBEARian said:

---

sombear said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

Link to Interview

It is a given that most people haven't heard of the USS Liberty. It's something that is generally glossed over in history classes, if it is taught at all. Or at least it used to be that way.

The official explanation is it was a case of mistaken identity that led to the death of 34 American servicemen in an attack that lasted far longer - and with multiple waves - than a case of mistaken identity would allow for.

Friendly fire happens. Pat Tillman was the most recent well known case of this. The USS Liberty attack was absolutely not a case of friendly fire.

Go watch the video, and remember the casualties on that ship next time someone starts advocating for war in Ukraine, Syria, Iran, or elsewhere.

---

Most people haven't heard of it? It was covered in my rural Indiana high school and again in college.

It remains unclear exactly what happened and why.

But let's say the absolute worst is true. Why should that affect foreign policy 57 years later? We are strong allies with a number of former enemies.

---

When is Israel going to pay back the trillion dollars the American tax payer has given them? We sure could use the money with our historic debt-to-GDP.

Allies pay back their debts.

Enemies do not.

---

Israel just utterly destroyed two Iranian proxies which have killed thousands of Amcits and currently hold several hostage. That campaign also denied the Syrian regime of an ally it depended upon to defend the line of advance into Damascus, causing the fall of the Assad regime, an Iranian ally who has been on the State Sponsor of Terrorism...

---

Sure...100% correct

But don't act like they did it for America

Israel acts to the benefit of Israel only.....

---

Pre-1980 Iran was a very reliable proxy like Israel, too. A Shiite country surrounded by antagonistic Sunni countries, as well as a contiguous border with the USSR. Made them a very motivated ally. That is why Obama and Biden courted them so hard, foolishly hard. They wanted to flip them over to our side. And it was profoundly stupid, as the current regime is ideologically rooted in hatred of the West in general and USA in particular. As we have seen, no amount of inducements moved them an inch toward us and a lot more than that in the wrong direction.

.

---

I can certainly see why having Iran as pro-American ally would be very beneficial (big country, lots of oil, strategic location)

Still not sure what Israel it's us in the region that we already do not have.

But that is an interesting point about Obama-Biden still trying to pull Iran into the American orbit….though that seems like a lost cause given Irans current rulers

So much to say about this. Usually, when the IC fails, it’s a disaster for the US and our allies. In this case, however—unlike in Iraq, Libya, Afghanistan and elsewhere—the disastrous predictions were in the other direction. Reminds me of the catastrophe the IC predicted when… pic.twitter.com/vFpQ75Cul3

— David Reaboi, Late Republic Nonsense (@davereaboi) December 18, 2024

The_barBEARian said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

The_barBEARian said:

---

sombear said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

Link to Interview

It is a given that most people haven't heard of the USS Liberty. It's something that is generally glossed over in history classes, if it is taught at all. Or at least it used to be that way.

The official explanation is it was a case of mistaken identity that led to the death of 34 American servicemen in an attack that lasted far longer - and with multiple waves - than a case of mistaken identity would allow for.

Friendly fire happens. Pat Tillman was the most recent well known case of this. The USS Liberty attack was absolutely not a case of friendly fire.

Go watch the video, and remember the casualties on that ship next time someone starts advocating for war in Ukraine, Syria, Iran, or elsewhere.

---

Most people haven't heard of it? It was covered in my rural Indiana high school and again in college.

It remains unclear exactly what happened and why.

But let's say the absolute worst is true. Why should that affect foreign policy 57 years later? We are strong allies with a number of former enemies.

---

When is Israel going to pay back the trillion dollars the American tax payer has given them? We sure could use the money with our historic debt-to-GDP.

Allies pay back their debts.

Enemies do not.

---

Israel just utterly destroyed two Iranian proxies which have killed thousands of Amcits and currently hold several hostage. That campaign also denied the Syrian regime of an ally it depended upon to defend the line of advance into Damascus, causing the fall of the Assad regime, an Iranian ally who has been on the State Sponsor of Terrorism...

---

Sure...100% correct

But don't act like they did it for America

Israel acts to the benefit of Israel only.....

---

It benefits us almost as much as it benefits Israel, the only difference being it's an existential struggle for Israel and not quite that for us. That makes them the perfect proxy - one who is desperate and needs us badly. That our interests align so seamlessly is a big factor, too....from geopolitics to philosophy. Israel is a part of Western Culture; the Jewish faith is as arguably an even bigger foundation stone of western civilization than Rome or Greece.

Pre-1980 Iran was a very reliable proxy like Israel, too. A Shiite country surrounded by antagonistic Sunni countries, as well as a contiguous border with the USSR. Made them a very motivated ally. That is why Obama and Biden courted them so hard, foolishly hard. They wanted to flip them over to our side. And it was profoundly stupid, as the current regime is ideologically rooted in hatred of the West in general and USA in particular. As we have seen, no amount of inducements moved them an inch toward us and a lot more than that in the wrong direction.

Obama/Biden policy on Iran was a real head scratcher. How could they be so disconnected from reality? Without regime change in Tehran, Iran will be what it has been since 1980 - a weak but fervent antagonist seeking to destabilize all our arrangements.

---

Israel is part of western culture?

The Jewish faith is the biggest foundation stone in western civilization???

My god... you Boomercons are the most brainwashed individuals on the planet.

The Jewish faith has always been like oil and water with western civilization, which is why whereever Jewish enclaves have existed, there has always been friction with the native populations of Europe.... Russia, Poland, Germany, Britain, France, and Spain

---

My God....anti-semites are the most closed minded people on the plant.

Orwell coined the phrase "Jude-Christian values" to describe the value system of Western Civilization, which is built squarely on the moral lessons of the Bible. The connections are quite obvious, all the way back to the Ten Commandments, given by the Jewish God to a Jew for the Jewish People yet are taught today in Sunday School lessons all across the planet.

You do realize Jesus was a Jew, don't you?
All the apostles? Jews.
Think the stories about them have had much impact on the West?
"....We are endowed by our Creator with certain unalienable rights...."

Put aside the anger and hate. They will warp your mind and soul.

Redbrickbear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

The_barBEARian said:

---

sombear said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

Link to Interview

It is a given that most people haven't heard of the USS Liberty. It's something that is generally glossed over in history classes, if it is taught at all. Or at least it used to be that way.

The official explanation is it was a case of mistaken identity that led to the death of 34 American servicemen in an attack that lasted far longer - and with multiple waves - than a case of mistaken identity would allow for.

Friendly fire happens. Pat Tillman was the most recent well known case of this. The USS Liberty attack was absolutely not a case of friendly fire.

Go watch the video, and remember the casualties on that ship next time someone starts advocating for war in Ukraine, Syria, Iran, or elsewhere.

---

Most people haven't heard of it? It was covered in my rural Indiana high school and again in college.

It remains unclear exactly what happened and why.

But let's say the absolute worst is true. Why should that affect foreign policy 57 years later? We are strong allies with a number of former enemies.

---

When is Israel going to pay back the trillion dollars the American tax payer has given them? We sure could use the money with our historic debt-to-GDP.

Allies pay back their debts.

Enemies do not.

---

Israel just utterly destroyed two Iranian proxies which have killed thousands of Amcits and currently hold several hostage. That campaign also denied the Syrian regime of an ally it depended upon to defend the line of advance into Damascus, causing the fall of the Assad regime, an Iranian ally who has been on the State Sponsor of Terrorism...

---

Sure...100% correct

But don't act like they did it for America

Israel acts to the benefit of Israel only.....

---

Pre-1980 Iran was a very reliable proxy like Israel, too. A Shiite country surrounded by antagonistic Sunni countries, as well as a contiguous border with the USSR. Made them a very motivated ally. That is why Obama and Biden courted them so hard, foolishly hard. They wanted to flip them over to our side. And it was profoundly stupid, as the current regime is ideologically rooted in hatred of the West in general and USA in particular. As we have seen, no amount of inducements moved them an inch toward us and a lot more than that in the wrong direction.

.

---

I can certainly see why having Iran as pro-American ally would be very beneficial (big country, lots of oil, strategic location)

Still not sure what Israel it's us in the region that we already do not have.

But that is an interesting point about Obama-Biden still trying to pull Iran into the American orbit….though that seems like a lost cause given Irans current rulers

---

if you can't see what Israel has done for us in the last 12 months, I can't help you. Biggest bang for the buck, ever.

Redbrickbear said:

---

So much to say about this. Usually, when the IC fails, it’s a disaster for the US and our allies. In this case, however—unlike in Iraq, Libya, Afghanistan and elsewhere—the disastrous predictions were in the other direction. Reminds me of the catastrophe the IC predicted when… pic.twitter.com/vFpQ75Cul3

— David Reaboi, Late Republic Nonsense (@davereaboi) December 18, 2024

---

David and I follow each other on Twitter.

He's an influencer offering political spin to generate support for reform. All good.

His comments here are not good forensics, however. IC analysis doesn't "predict." It lays out scenarios, with notes about which are more likely than others, and even degrees of confidence in those assessments.

Noting that the ME might erupt in outrage over moving our Embassy to Jerusalem is a prudent caution for a policymaker, as it could have a number of impacts ranging from strategic (fall of allied regimes) to tactical (mob attacks on Embassies/diplomats around the world). Assessments have to identify not just the potential for actions, but the consequences of those actions...i.e. a low-likelihood impact with enormous consequences might influence a policymaker's decision-making more than high-likelihood impact with manageable consequences. Pointing all that out to the policymaker is not a prediction. It's just saying "here's what the landscape looks like and here's where the more likely outcomes are."

"Failing to Predict" the fall of Syria, for example, is not a terribly insightful critique, for example. The Assad regime has been defying the laws of gravity for over a decade. Policymakers knew what they needed to know - which groups, led by whom, patrons of each, potential outcomes of victory/loss, likely impacts on and reactions from regional powers, etc.....

None of that matters in politics. If it benefits you to criticize CIA, by all means do it. They can handle the heat.

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

The_barBEARian said:

---

sombear said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

Link to Interview

It is a given that most people haven't heard of the USS Liberty. It's something that is generally glossed over in history classes, if it is taught at all. Or at least it used to be that way.

The official explanation is it was a case of mistaken identity that led to the death of 34 American servicemen in an attack that lasted far longer - and with multiple waves - than a case of mistaken identity would allow for.

Friendly fire happens. Pat Tillman was the most recent well known case of this. The USS Liberty attack was absolutely not a case of friendly fire.

Go watch the video, and remember the casualties on that ship next time someone starts advocating for war in Ukraine, Syria, Iran, or elsewhere.

---

Most people haven't heard of it? It was covered in my rural Indiana high school and again in college.

It remains unclear exactly what happened and why.

But let's say the absolute worst is true. Why should that affect foreign policy 57 years later? We are strong allies with a number of former enemies.

---

When is Israel going to pay back the trillion dollars the American tax payer has given them? We sure could use the money with our historic debt-to-GDP.

Allies pay back their debts.

Enemies do not.

---

Israel just utterly destroyed two Iranian proxies which have killed thousands of Amcits and currently hold several hostage. That campaign also denied the Syrian regime of an ally it depended upon to defend the line of advance into Damascus, causing the fall of the Assad regime, an Iranian ally who has been on the State Sponsor of Terrorism...

---

Sure...100% correct

But don't act like they did it for America

Israel acts to the benefit of Israel only.....

---

Pre-1980 Iran was a very reliable proxy like Israel, too. A Shiite country surrounded by antagonistic Sunni countries, as well as a contiguous border with the USSR. Made them a very motivated ally. That is why Obama and Biden courted them so hard, foolishly hard. They wanted to flip them over to our side. And it was profoundly stupid, as the current regime is ideologically rooted in hatred of the West in general and USA in particular. As we have seen, no amount of inducements moved them an inch toward us and a lot more than that in the wrong direction.

.

---

I can certainly see why having Iran as pro-American ally would be very beneficial (big country, lots of oil, strategic location)

Still not sure what Israel it's us in the region that we already do not have.

But that is an interesting point about Obama-Biden still trying to pull Iran into the American orbit….though that seems like a lost cause given Irans current rulers

---

if you can't see what Israel has done for us in the last 12 months, I can't help you. Biggest bang for the buck, ever.

---

What is it that they have done for us? They flattened Gaza which and destablized Syria even further. It seems like this is going to create even more refugees which will come to Europe and the US so this is not in our interest. It's good for them bc they get more land and now they can fly bombing runs all the way to Iran and escalate their war (that we pay for) even more.

muddybrazos said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

The_barBEARian said:

---

sombear said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

Link to Interview

It is a given that most people haven't heard of the USS Liberty. It's something that is generally glossed over in history classes, if it is taught at all. Or at least it used to be that way.

The official explanation is it was a case of mistaken identity that led to the death of 34 American servicemen in an attack that lasted far longer - and with multiple waves - than a case of mistaken identity would allow for.

Friendly fire happens. Pat Tillman was the most recent well known case of this. The USS Liberty attack was absolutely not a case of friendly fire.

Go watch the video, and remember the casualties on that ship next time someone starts advocating for war in Ukraine, Syria, Iran, or elsewhere.

---

Most people haven't heard of it? It was covered in my rural Indiana high school and again in college.

It remains unclear exactly what happened and why.

But let's say the absolute worst is true. Why should that affect foreign policy 57 years later? We are strong allies with a number of former enemies.

---

When is Israel going to pay back the trillion dollars the American tax payer has given them? We sure could use the money with our historic debt-to-GDP.

Allies pay back their debts.

Enemies do not.

---

Israel just utterly destroyed two Iranian proxies which have killed thousands of Amcits and currently hold several hostage. That campaign also denied the Syrian regime of an ally it depended upon to defend the line of advance into Damascus, causing the fall of the Assad regime, an Iranian ally who has been on the State Sponsor of Terrorism...

---

Sure...100% correct

But don't act like they did it for America

Israel acts to the benefit of Israel only.....

---

Pre-1980 Iran was a very reliable proxy like Israel, too. A Shiite country surrounded by antagonistic Sunni countries, as well as a contiguous border with the USSR. Made them a very motivated ally. That is why Obama and Biden courted them so hard, foolishly hard. They wanted to flip them over to our side. And it was profoundly stupid, as the current regime is ideologically rooted in hatred of the West in general and USA in particular. As we have seen, no amount of inducements moved them an inch toward us and a lot more than that in the wrong direction.

.

---

I can certainly see why having Iran as pro-American ally would be very beneficial (big country, lots of oil, strategic location)

Still not sure what Israel it's us in the region that we already do not have.

But that is an interesting point about Obama-Biden still trying to pull Iran into the American orbit….though that seems like a lost cause given Irans current rulers

---

if you can't see what Israel has done for us in the last 12 months, I can't help you. Biggest bang for the buck, ever.

---

What is it that they have done for us? They flattened Gaza which and destablized Syria even further. It seems like this is going to create even more refugees which will come to Europe and the US so this is not in our interest. It's good for them bc they get more land and now they can fly bombing runs all the way to Iran and escalate their war (that we pay for) even more.

---

Good point

Will Israel be welcoming in those millions of Muslim refugees and migrants with open arms?

Or directing them to the EU and the USA?

whiterock said:

---

The_barBEARian said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

The_barBEARian said:

---

sombear said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

Link to Interview

It is a given that most people haven't heard of the USS Liberty. It's something that is generally glossed over in history classes, if it is taught at all. Or at least it used to be that way.

The official explanation is it was a case of mistaken identity that led to the death of 34 American servicemen in an attack that lasted far longer - and with multiple waves - than a case of mistaken identity would allow for.

Friendly fire happens. Pat Tillman was the most recent well known case of this. The USS Liberty attack was absolutely not a case of friendly fire.

Go watch the video, and remember the casualties on that ship next time someone starts advocating for war in Ukraine, Syria, Iran, or elsewhere.

---

Most people haven't heard of it? It was covered in my rural Indiana high school and again in college.

It remains unclear exactly what happened and why.

But let's say the absolute worst is true. Why should that affect foreign policy 57 years later? We are strong allies with a number of former enemies.

---

When is Israel going to pay back the trillion dollars the American tax payer has given them? We sure could use the money with our historic debt-to-GDP.

Allies pay back their debts.

Enemies do not.

---

Israel just utterly destroyed two Iranian proxies which have killed thousands of Amcits and currently hold several hostage. That campaign also denied the Syrian regime of an ally it depended upon to defend the line of advance into Damascus, causing the fall of the Assad regime, an Iranian ally who has been on the State Sponsor of Terrorism...

---

Sure...100% correct

But don't act like they did it for America

Israel acts to the benefit of Israel only.....

---

It benefits us almost as much as it benefits Israel, the only difference being it's an existential struggle for Israel and not quite that for us. That makes them the perfect proxy - one who is desperate and needs us badly. That our interests align so seamlessly is a big factor, too....from geopolitics to philosophy. Israel is a part of Western Culture; the Jewish faith is as arguably an even bigger foundation stone of western civilization than Rome or Greece.

Pre-1980 Iran was a very reliable proxy like Israel, too. A Shiite country surrounded by antagonistic Sunni countries, as well as a contiguous border with the USSR. Made them a very motivated ally. That is why Obama and Biden courted them so hard, foolishly hard. They wanted to flip them over to our side. And it was profoundly stupid, as the current regime is ideologically rooted in hatred of the West in general and USA in particular. As we have seen, no amount of inducements moved them an inch toward us and a lot more than that in the wrong direction.

Obama/Biden policy on Iran was a real head scratcher. How could they be so disconnected from reality? Without regime change in Tehran, Iran will be what it has been since 1980 - a weak but fervent antagonist seeking to destabilize all our arrangements.

---

Israel is part of western culture?

The Jewish faith is the biggest foundation stone in western civilization???

My god... you Boomercons are the most brainwashed individuals on the planet.

The Jewish faith has always been like oil and water with western civilization, which is why whereever Jewish enclaves have existed, there has always been friction with the native populations of Europe.... Russia, Poland, Germany, Britain, France, and Spain

---

My God....anti-semites are the most closed minded people on the plant.

Orwell coined the phrase "Jude-Christian values" to describe the value system of Western Civilization, which is built squarely on the moral lessons of the Bible. The connections are quite obvious, all the way back to the Ten Commandments, given by the Jewish God to a Jew for the Jewish People yet are taught today in Sunday School lessons all across the planet.

You do realize Jesus was a Jew, don't you?
All the apostles? Jews.
Think the stories about them have had much impact on the West?
"....We are endowed by our Creator with certain unalienable rights...."

Put aside the anger and hate. They will warp your mind and soul.

---

There is no such thing as “Judeo-Christian.”pic.twitter.com/7T852iG5oJ

— Fr Calvin Robinson (@calvinrobinson) November 29, 2024

the IDF TCB............

- el KKM

{ sipping coffee }

Go bears!

Redbrickbear said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

muddybrazos said:

---

This Syria situation is only going to end well for Israel which is par for the course. More refugees will be pushed into Europe while Israel gets to steal more land and block off Iran. The world wouldve been better off with Quadaffi still in Libya, Saddam still in Iraq and Assad still in Syria and any opinion to the contrary is just CIA/Mossad propaganda.

This is why Syria is falling. In case you want to keep calling me a conspiracy theorist

It will happen pic.twitter.com/LK2bi0MQQz

— E (@ElijahSchaffer) December 8, 2024

This is not a conspiracy and anyone familiar with the plans laid out in the Clean Break memo knows exactly what is happening and what is coming next.

---

lol..wut?? Some of you guys need to detox from social media. It's turned into the biggest psyop exercise ever conducted.

---

I doubt "greater Israel" is a policy of the actual government in Tel Aviv (they are smart after all and not interested in pie in the sky fantasy)

But let's not act like the idea just came out of thin air.

Ultra-radical settlers and some ultra-orthodox float the idea that it's a biblical command to expand the State to the Euphrates River…it's an idea that has been around for centuries

Luckily they are a extreme minority






[The "Royal Grant" to Abraham consisting of all the land east of the Brook of Egypt and west of the Euphrates, north of Kadesh and south of Hamath, from a 1919 book by Clarence Larkin.]

---

The idea is also biblical:

"On that day the LORD made a covenant with Abram and said, 'To your descendants I give this land, from the Wadi of Egypt to the great river, the Euphrates'"
Genesis 15:18

Realitybites said:

---

Link to Interview

It is a given that most people haven't heard of the USS Liberty. It's something that is generally glossed over in history classes, if it is taught at all. Or at least it used to be that way.

The official explanation is it was a case of mistaken identity that led to the death of 34 American servicemen in an attack that lasted far longer - and with multiple waves - than a case of mistaken identity would allow for.

Friendly fire happens. Pat Tillman was the most recent well known case of this. The USS Liberty attack was absolutely not a case of friendly fire.

Go watch the video, and remember the casualties on that ship next time someone starts advocating for war in Ukraine, Syria, Iran, or elsewhere.

---

Here is a scholarly account of the attacks on the USS Liberty by a respectable historian:

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/quot-the-uss-liberty-case-closed-quot

Regardless of what happened 57 years ago I'm unsure why it matters so much now. Few Americans hold a grudge against Japan for Pearl Harbor, the Bataan Death March, or anything else related to WWII (same with Germany) so hold a grudge for an event from decades past? Both governments have moved on and I'm not sure what is served by dwelling on it today. Like Israel, we are now allies with Japan & Germany. Heck, during the war we were allies with the Soviet Union! Geopolitics is messy.

The_barBEARian said:

---

sombear said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

Link to Interview

It is a given that most people haven't heard of the USS Liberty. It's something that is generally glossed over in history classes, if it is taught at all. Or at least it used to be that way.

The official explanation is it was a case of mistaken identity that led to the death of 34 American servicemen in an attack that lasted far longer - and with multiple waves - than a case of mistaken identity would allow for.

Friendly fire happens. Pat Tillman was the most recent well known case of this. The USS Liberty attack was absolutely not a case of friendly fire.

Go watch the video, and remember the casualties on that ship next time someone starts advocating for war in Ukraine, Syria, Iran, or elsewhere.

---

Most people haven't heard of it? It was covered in my rural Indiana high school and again in college.

It remains unclear exactly what happened and why.

But let's say the absolute worst is true. Why should that affect foreign policy 57 years later? We are strong allies with a number of former enemies.

---

When is Israel going to pay back the trillion dollars the American tax payer has given them? We sure could use the money with our historic debt-to-GDP.

Allies pay back their debts.

Enemies do not.

---

America's allies from WWI have never paid back debts from aid given to them by the U.S. Except for Finland: they are the only country that owed the US money after WWI and paid back in full, mainly because they had the smallest debt, $100,000.

Redbrickbear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

The_barBEARian said:

---

sombear said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

Link to Interview

It is a given that most people haven't heard of the USS Liberty. It's something that is generally glossed over in history classes, if it is taught at all. Or at least it used to be that way.

The official explanation is it was a case of mistaken identity that led to the death of 34 American servicemen in an attack that lasted far longer - and with multiple waves - than a case of mistaken identity would allow for.

Friendly fire happens. Pat Tillman was the most recent well known case of this. The USS Liberty attack was absolutely not a case of friendly fire.

Go watch the video, and remember the casualties on that ship next time someone starts advocating for war in Ukraine, Syria, Iran, or elsewhere.

---

Most people haven't heard of it? It was covered in my rural Indiana high school and again in college.

It remains unclear exactly what happened and why.

But let's say the absolute worst is true. Why should that affect foreign policy 57 years later? We are strong allies with a number of former enemies.

---

When is Israel going to pay back the trillion dollars the American tax payer has given them? We sure could use the money with our historic debt-to-GDP.

Allies pay back their debts.

Enemies do not.

---

Israel just utterly destroyed two Iranian proxies which have killed thousands of Amcits and currently hold several hostage. That campaign also denied the Syrian regime of an ally it depended upon to defend the line of advance into Damascus, causing the fall of the Assad regime, an Iranian ally who has been on the State Sponsor of Terrorism...

---

Sure...100% correct

But don't act like they did it for America

Israel acts to the benefit of Israel only.....

---

That describes the foreign policy of every country in human history with few exceptions. So what? Countries work together and become allies because they have common cause and they find cooperation beneficial. That goes not mean they agree 100% on everything. We benefit from Israel's actions against their terrorist enemies because Hamas, Hezbollah, etc are also our enemies.

We were allied to Stalin's Soviet Union during WWII because Hitler's Germany was a common enemy. FDR & other leaders concluded that it was in our interest to support the Russians and they were correct. Even Churchill agreed and he had a long history of being anti-communist.

sombear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

The_barBEARian said:

---

sombear said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

Link to Interview

It is a given that most people haven't heard of the USS Liberty. It's something that is generally glossed over in history classes, if it is taught at all. Or at least it used to be that way.

The official explanation is it was a case of mistaken identity that led to the death of 34 American servicemen in an attack that lasted far longer - and with multiple waves - than a case of mistaken identity would allow for.

Friendly fire happens. Pat Tillman was the most recent well known case of this. The USS Liberty attack was absolutely not a case of friendly fire.

Go watch the video, and remember the casualties on that ship next time someone starts advocating for war in Ukraine, Syria, Iran, or elsewhere.

---

Most people haven't heard of it? It was covered in my rural Indiana high school and again in college.

It remains unclear exactly what happened and why.

But let's say the absolute worst is true. Why should that affect foreign policy 57 years later? We are strong allies with a number of former enemies.

---

When is Israel going to pay back the trillion dollars the American tax payer has given them? We sure could use the money with our historic debt-to-GDP.

Allies pay back their debts.

Enemies do not.

---

Israel just utterly destroyed two Iranian proxies which have killed thousands of Amcits and currently hold several hostage. That campaign also denied the Syrian regime of an ally it depended upon to defend the line of advance into Damascus, causing the fall of the Assad regime, an Iranian ally who has been on the State Sponsor of Terrorism...

---

Sure...100% correct

But don't act like they did it for America

Israel acts to the benefit of Israel only.....

---

That's what countries are supposed to do, no? Source: MAGA.

---

No. It's geopolitics.