Every country with the resources lobbies our government on their behalf. It's not unusual for Israel to do that.

The_barBEARian said:

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whiterock said:

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The_barBEARian said:

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sombear said:

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Realitybites said:

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Link to Interview

It is a given that most people haven't heard of the USS Liberty. It's something that is generally glossed over in history classes, if it is taught at all. Or at least it used to be that way.

The official explanation is it was a case of mistaken identity that led to the death of 34 American servicemen in an attack that lasted far longer - and with multiple waves - than a case of mistaken identity would allow for.

Friendly fire happens. Pat Tillman was the most recent well known case of this. The USS Liberty attack was absolutely not a case of friendly fire.

Go watch the video, and remember the casualties on that ship next time someone starts advocating for war in Ukraine, Syria, Iran, or elsewhere.

---

Most people haven't heard of it? It was covered in my rural Indiana high school and again in college.

It remains unclear exactly what happened and why.

But let's say the absolute worst is true. Why should that affect foreign policy 57 years later? We are strong allies with a number of former enemies.

---

When is Israel going to pay back the trillion dollars the American tax payer has given them? We sure could use the money with our historic debt-to-GDP.

Allies pay back their debts.

Enemies do not.

---

Israel just utterly destroyed two Iranian proxies which have killed thousands of Amcits and currently hold several hostage. That campaign also denied the Syrian regime of an ally it depended upon to defend the line of advance into Damascus, causing the fall of the Assad regime, an Iranian ally who has been on the State Sponsor of Terrorism list since its inception decades ago....for using terrorism as an instrument of state policy against the USA and its allies. We did not risk a single US soldier to help Israel. All we did was sell them arms/ammo, which got real life battlefield testing.

What's that worth to you?

---

You mean the state sponsor of terrorism list - 7 countries in 5 years - that Netanyahu put together under the Bush Jr admin?

First, I dont count dual citizens as real citizens. Dual citizenship did not exist until the late 70ties when Jews pushed congress to allow them to hold Israeli citizenship. So when people bring up American hostages I correct them and remind them these are Israeli hostages and many real, legacy Americans agree with me.

Second, pretty much all of the American causalities caused Shia/Iranian proxies were folks who volunteered to work as mercenaries in the middle east for Israeli interests. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

Sunni terrorism promoted by the Saudis is far more odious. They pick soft targets and kill far more civilians. Yet you support the Sunni terrorists who now control Syria and consider Saudi Arabia an ally of the United States...

Third, we could get real battlefield testing against the cartels in Mexico. They are a far greater threat to most Americans than Iranians.

---

1. It does not matter if you count dual citizenship as real. The U.S. government does. It's in our laws.
2. American victims of Shiite terrorism include lots of innocent people. For example, the American embassy hostages in Tehran 1979-1980 were American personnel, officials of the U.S. government. They were not mercenaries.
3. Sunni terrorism is more complicated as is almost everything to do with the Middle East but the US government considers Saudi Arabia an ally because we have worked together pretty well for decades in a variety of ways. The Gulf War is an obvious example. Cold War cooperation is another.

sombear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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sombear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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sombear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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whiterock said:

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The_barBEARian said:

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sombear said:

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Realitybites said:

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Link to Interview

It is a given that most people haven't heard of the USS Liberty. It's something that is generally glossed over in history classes, if it is taught at all. Or at least it used to be that way.

The official explanation is it was a case of mistaken identity that led to the death of 34 American servicemen in an attack that lasted far longer - and with multiple waves - than a case of mistaken identity would allow for.

Friendly fire happens. Pat Tillman was the most recent well known case of this. The USS Liberty attack was absolutely not a case of friendly fire.

Go watch the video, and remember the casualties on that ship next time someone starts advocating for war in Ukraine, Syria, Iran, or elsewhere.

---

Most people haven't heard of it? It was covered in my rural Indiana high school and again in college.

It remains unclear exactly what happened and why.

But let's say the absolute worst is true. Why should that affect foreign policy 57 years later? We are strong allies with a number of former enemies.

---

When is Israel going to pay back the trillion dollars the American tax payer has given them? We sure could use the money with our historic debt-to-GDP.

Allies pay back their debts.

Enemies do not.

---

Israel just utterly destroyed two Iranian proxies which have killed thousands of Amcits and currently hold several hostage. That campaign also denied the Syrian regime of an ally it depended upon to defend the line of advance into Damascus, causing the fall of the Assad regime, an Iranian ally who has been on the State Sponsor of Terrorism...

---

Sure...100% correct

But don't act like they did it for America

Israel acts to the benefit of Israel only.....

---

That's what countries are supposed to do, no? Source: MAGA.

---

Exactly the issue people have with DC and the current political class there

(spending vast sums of tax payer money, time, resources, and rhetoric on peoples and countries other than the USA)

I have no problem with Tel Aviv putting Israel first....as long as well all agree what the relationship is in reality

---

Sure but sometimes what's good for one country also is good for others. And I (and our government) believe in most cases what is good for Israel is good for us.

---

Leaving out the fact that Israel has a massively powerful lobbying group inside the USA designed to push their interests in our Federal government.

https://readsludge.com/2024/08/27/aipac-officially-surpasses-100-million-in-spending-on-2024-elections/

To the tune of $100 million each election cycle

Many people feel that warps the process of determining if this relationship is America first or Israel first

---

I know it's out of fashion, but I've never bought into the lobbying influence angle, whether it's Israel, any other country, industry, or interest group. All significant players (countries, industries, and interest groups) lobby and pays big $. I used to work campaigns. I never knew a politician who changed their mind based on who paid the most money. They just accepted money from everyone.

When politicians change their mind, they do so based on votes. And the Jewish vote in the vast majority of the U.S. is either not significant or is not moveable.

---

The Jewish vote does not influence politicians nearly as much as the votes of evangelicals sympathetic to Israel.

historian said:

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Realitybites said:

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Link to Interview

It is a given that most people haven't heard of the USS Liberty. It's something that is generally glossed over in history classes, if it is taught at all. Or at least it used to be that way.

The official explanation is it was a case of mistaken identity that led to the death of 34 American servicemen in an attack that lasted far longer - and with multiple waves - than a case of mistaken identity would allow for.

Friendly fire happens. Pat Tillman was the most recent well known case of this. The USS Liberty attack was absolutely not a case of friendly fire.

Go watch the video, and remember the casualties on that ship next time someone starts advocating for war in Ukraine, Syria, Iran, or elsewhere.

---

Here is a scholarly account of the attacks on the USS Liberty by a respectable historian:

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/quot-the-uss-liberty-case-closed-quot

Regardless of what happened 57 years ago I'm unsure why it matters so much now. Few Americans hold a grudge against Japan for Pearl Harbor, the Bataan Death March, or anything else related to WWII (same with Germany) so hold a grudge for an event from decades past? Both governments have moved on and I'm not sure what is served by dwelling on it today. Like Israel, we are now allies with Japan & Germany. Heck, during the war we were allies with the Soviet Union! Geopolitics is messy.

---

Thank you. Pilots said it was misidentification. Either we go to war with Israel or you take the word of an Allie.

The_barBEARian said:

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whiterock said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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whiterock said:

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The_barBEARian said:

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sombear said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

Link to Interview

It is a given that most people haven't heard of the USS Liberty. It's something that is generally glossed over in history classes, if it is taught at all. Or at least it used to be that way.

The official explanation is it was a case of mistaken identity that led to the death of 34 American servicemen in an attack that lasted far longer - and with multiple waves - than a case of mistaken identity would allow for.

Friendly fire happens. Pat Tillman was the most recent well known case of this. The USS Liberty attack was absolutely not a case of friendly fire.

Go watch the video, and remember the casualties on that ship next time someone starts advocating for war in Ukraine, Syria, Iran, or elsewhere.

---

Most people haven't heard of it? It was covered in my rural Indiana high school and again in college.

It remains unclear exactly what happened and why.

But let's say the absolute worst is true. Why should that affect foreign policy 57 years later? We are strong allies with a number of former enemies.

---

When is Israel going to pay back the trillion dollars the American tax payer has given them? We sure could use the money with our historic debt-to-GDP.

Allies pay back their debts.

Enemies do not.

---

Israel just utterly destroyed two Iranian proxies which have killed thousands of Amcits and currently hold several hostage. That campaign also denied the Syrian regime of an ally it depended upon to defend the line of advance into Damascus, causing the fall of the Assad regime, an Iranian ally who has been on the State Sponsor of Terrorism...

---

Sure...100% correct

But don't act like they did it for America

Israel acts to the benefit of Israel only.....

---

It benefits us almost as much as it benefits Israel, the only difference being it's an existential struggle for Israel and not quite that for us. That makes them the perfect proxy - one who is desperate and needs us badly. That our interests align so seamlessly is a big factor, too....from geopolitics to philosophy. Israel is a part of Western Culture; the Jewish faith is as arguably an even bigger foundation stone of western civilization than Rome or Greece.

Pre-1980 Iran was a very reliable proxy like Israel, too. A Shiite country surrounded by antagonistic Sunni countries, as well as a contiguous border with the USSR. Made them a very motivated ally. That is why Obama and Biden courted them so hard, foolishly hard. They wanted to flip them over to our side. And it was profoundly stupid, as the current regime is ideologically rooted in hatred of the West in general and USA in particular. As we have seen, no amount of inducements moved them an inch toward us and a lot more than that in the wrong direction.

Obama/Biden policy on Iran was a real head scratcher. How could they be so disconnected from reality? Without regime change in Tehran, Iran will be what it has been since 1980 - a weak but fervent antagonist seeking to destabilize all our arrangements.

---

Israel is part of western culture?

The Jewish faith is the biggest foundation stone in western civilization???

My god... you Boomercons are the most brainwashed individuals on the planet.

The Jewish faith has always been like oil and water with western civilization, which is why whereever Jewish enclaves have existed, there has always been friction with the native populations of Europe.... Russia, Poland, Germany, Britain, France, and Spain

---

What? Christianity is foundational for western civilization, arguably more so than classic Greek or Roman civilization. Christianity came out of Judaism. These are facts. Nothing about this is shocking.

Antisemitism is the issue, not the presence of Jews in Europe if the US. This hatred is irrational and generally ignorant.

KaiBear said:

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whiterock said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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whiterock said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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whiterock said:

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The_barBEARian said:

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sombear said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

Link to Interview

It is a given that most people haven't heard of the USS Liberty. It's something that is generally glossed over in history classes, if it is taught at all. Or at least it used to be that way.

The official explanation is it was a case of mistaken identity that led to the death of 34 American servicemen in an attack that lasted far longer - and with multiple waves - than a case of mistaken identity would allow for.

Friendly fire happens. Pat Tillman was the most recent well known case of this. The USS Liberty attack was absolutely not a case of friendly fire.

Go watch the video, and remember the casualties on that ship next time someone starts advocating for war in Ukraine, Syria, Iran, or elsewhere.

---

Most people haven't heard of it? It was covered in my rural Indiana high school and again in college.

It remains unclear exactly what happened and why.

But let's say the absolute worst is true. Why should that affect foreign policy 57 years later? We are strong allies with a number of former enemies.

---

When is Israel going to pay back the trillion dollars the American tax payer has given them? We sure could use the money with our historic debt-to-GDP.

Allies pay back their debts.

Enemies do not.

---

Israel just utterly destroyed two Iranian proxies which have killed thousands of Amcits and currently hold several hostage. That campaign also denied the Syrian regime of an ally it depended upon to defend the line of advance into Damascus, causing the fall of the Assad regime, an Iranian ally who has been on the State Sponsor of Terrorism...

---

Sure...100% correct

But don't act like they did it for America

Israel acts to the benefit of Israel only.....

---

Pre-1980 Iran was a very reliable proxy like Israel, too. A Shiite country surrounded by antagonistic Sunni countries, as well as a contiguous border with the USSR. Made them a very motivated ally. That is why Obama and Biden courted them so hard, foolishly hard. They wanted to flip them over to our side. And it was profoundly stupid, as the current regime is ideologically rooted in hatred of the West in general and USA in particular. As we have seen, no amount of inducements moved them an inch toward us and a lot more than that in the wrong direction.

.

---

I can certainly see why having Iran as pro-American ally would be very beneficial (big country, lots of oil, strategic location)

Still not sure what Israel it's us in the region that we already do not have.

But that is an interesting point about Obama-Biden still trying to pull Iran into the American orbit….though that seems like a lost cause given Irans current rulers

---

if you can't see what Israel has done for us in the last 12 months, I can't help you. Biggest bang for the buck, ever.

---

Interesting perspective.

Honestly think it's the other way around.

Without US financial support and military assets in the region……it's highly unlikely the rest of the Muslin world world have sat back while Israel invaded Gaza, Lebanon and Syria.

Killing thousands in the process.

---

Israeli invasions of those places were always in response to numerous attacks by the Islamofascist there against Israel. They were defending themselves and had every right to do that. Yes, thousands died. That's what happens in a war. Israel has been at war with their neighbors, off and on, for their entire history. Those are existential wars against enemies who want to destroy them and annihilate their population. Again, they had that right and it's what any other nation would do under the same circumstances.

Judea-Christian culture, values, & morality are very real. It does not matter how many people deny those realities, they are fundamental to understanding the history of western civilization.

KaiBear said:

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whiterock said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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whiterock said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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whiterock said:

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The_barBEARian said:

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sombear said:

---

Realitybites said:

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Link to Interview

It is a given that most people haven't heard of the USS Liberty. It's something that is generally glossed over in history classes, if it is taught at all. Or at least it used to be that way.

The official explanation is it was a case of mistaken identity that led to the death of 34 American servicemen in an attack that lasted far longer - and with multiple waves - than a case of mistaken identity would allow for.

Friendly fire happens. Pat Tillman was the most recent well known case of this. The USS Liberty attack was absolutely not a case of friendly fire.

Go watch the video, and remember the casualties on that ship next time someone starts advocating for war in Ukraine, Syria, Iran, or elsewhere.

---

Most people haven't heard of it? It was covered in my rural Indiana high school and again in college.

It remains unclear exactly what happened and why.

But let's say the absolute worst is true. Why should that affect foreign policy 57 years later? We are strong allies with a number of former enemies.

---

When is Israel going to pay back the trillion dollars the American tax payer has given them? We sure could use the money with our historic debt-to-GDP.

Allies pay back their debts.

Enemies do not.

---

Israel just utterly destroyed two Iranian proxies which have killed thousands of Amcits and currently hold several hostage. That campaign also denied the Syrian regime of an ally it depended upon to defend the line of advance into Damascus, causing the fall of the Assad regime, an Iranian ally who has been on the State Sponsor of Terrorism...

---

Sure...100% correct

But don't act like they did it for America

Israel acts to the benefit of Israel only.....

---

Pre-1980 Iran was a very reliable proxy like Israel, too. A Shiite country surrounded by antagonistic Sunni countries, as well as a contiguous border with the USSR. Made them a very motivated ally. That is why Obama and Biden courted them so hard, foolishly hard. They wanted to flip them over to our side. And it was profoundly stupid, as the current regime is ideologically rooted in hatred of the West in general and USA in particular. As we have seen, no amount of inducements moved them an inch toward us and a lot more than that in the wrong direction.

.

---

I can certainly see why having Iran as pro-American ally would be very beneficial (big country, lots of oil, strategic location)

Still not sure what Israel it's us in the region that we already do not have.

But that is an interesting point about Obama-Biden still trying to pull Iran into the American orbit….though that seems like a lost cause given Irans current rulers

---

if you can't see what Israel has done for us in the last 12 months, I can't help you. Biggest bang for the buck, ever.

---

Interesting perspective.

Honestly think it's the other way around.

Without US financial support and military assets in the region……it's highly unlikely the rest of the Muslin world world have sat back while Israel invaded Gaza, Lebanon and Syria.

Killing thousands in the process.

---

......in the process killing millions of Jews and empowering Hizballah & Hamas which of course have killed thousands of Americans over the decades and still hold US hostages, leaving a pro-Russian/pro-Iranian regime in place to threaten a Nato ally (Turkey).

How exactly is that preferrable to US interests than what has happened?
-total destruction of Hamas
-near total destruction of Hizballah
-fall of a major terror-sponsor regime in Damascus
-total collapse of decades of Iranian policy aimed at undermining US power around the world
-effective collapse of decades of Palestinian destabilization of the region.

The_barBEARian said:

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whiterock said:

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The_barBEARian said:

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sombear said:

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Realitybites said:

---

Link to Interview

It is a given that most people haven't heard of the USS Liberty. It's something that is generally glossed over in history classes, if it is taught at all. Or at least it used to be that way.

The official explanation is it was a case of mistaken identity that led to the death of 34 American servicemen in an attack that lasted far longer - and with multiple waves - than a case of mistaken identity would allow for.

Friendly fire happens. Pat Tillman was the most recent well known case of this. The USS Liberty attack was absolutely not a case of friendly fire.

Go watch the video, and remember the casualties on that ship next time someone starts advocating for war in Ukraine, Syria, Iran, or elsewhere.

---

Most people haven't heard of it? It was covered in my rural Indiana high school and again in college.

It remains unclear exactly what happened and why.

But let's say the absolute worst is true. Why should that affect foreign policy 57 years later? We are strong allies with a number of former enemies.

---

When is Israel going to pay back the trillion dollars the American tax payer has given them? We sure could use the money with our historic debt-to-GDP.

Allies pay back their debts.

Enemies do not.

---

Israel just utterly destroyed two Iranian proxies which have killed thousands of Amcits and currently hold several hostage. That campaign also denied the Syrian regime of an ally it depended upon to defend the line of advance into Damascus, causing the fall of the Assad regime, an Iranian ally who has been on the State Sponsor of Terrorism list since its inception decades ago....for using terrorism as an instrument of state policy against the USA and its allies. We did not risk a single US soldier to help Israel. All we did was sell them arms/ammo, which got real life battlefield testing.

What's that worth to you?

---

You mean the state sponsor of terrorism list - 7 countries in 5 years - that Netanyahu put together under the Bush Jr admin?
Your ignorance knows no bounds. The SSoT list has been around for over 50 years, and Syria has been on it from day one. So has Iran and, until the fall of Saddam, Iraq. The others are failed states which are incubators of all kinds of foreign policy problems.

First, I dont count dual citizens as real citizens. Dual citizenship did not exist until the late 70ties when Jews pushed congress to allow them to hold Israeli citizenship. So when people bring up American hostages I correct them and remind them these are Israeli hostages and many real, legacy Americans agree with me.
USA does not acknowledge dual citizenship. If you are a US citizen, you are a US citizen. Doesn't matter whether you hold other citizenship or not, completely irrelevant as far as the statute goes.

Second, pretty much all of the American causalities caused Shia/Iranian proxies were folks who volunteered to work as mercenaries in the middle east for Israeli interests. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
An American citizen is an American citizen. Picking and choosing tiers of perfection according to immutable traits is BLM-esque thinking, but then you don't do any thinking, so the correlation is entirely coincidental.

Sunni terrorism promoted by the Saudis is far more odious. They pick soft targets and kill far more civilians. Yet you support the Sunni terrorists who now control Syria and consider Saudi Arabia an ally of the United States...
Saudi Arabia never, as a matter of state policy, fomented attacks against the USA. The Assad regime in Syria did.

Intelligence liaison and military cooperation with the Saudis is a positive dynamic.
The Assad regime was allied with the most implacably anti-American regime on the planet - Iran. As well as Russia, who is threatening Nato allies
as we speak.
Just more recto-cranial inversion from barBEARian

Third, we could get real battlefield testing against the cartels in Mexico. They are a far greater threat to most Americans than Iranians.
We will of course quibble about the imbalance of your assessment, but I do agree the Mexican cartels are a threat to the USA worthy of US military response.

---

Quit feeling and start thinking.

whiterock said:

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KaiBear said:

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whiterock said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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whiterock said:

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Redbrickbear said:

---

whiterock said:

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The_barBEARian said:

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sombear said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

Link to Interview

It is a given that most people haven't heard of the USS Liberty. It's something that is generally glossed over in history classes, if it is taught at all. Or at least it used to be that way.

The official explanation is it was a case of mistaken identity that led to the death of 34 American servicemen in an attack that lasted far longer - and with multiple waves - than a case of mistaken identity would allow for.

Friendly fire happens. Pat Tillman was the most recent well known case of this. The USS Liberty attack was absolutely not a case of friendly fire.

Go watch the video, and remember the casualties on that ship next time someone starts advocating for war in Ukraine, Syria, Iran, or elsewhere.

---

Most people haven't heard of it? It was covered in my rural Indiana high school and again in college.

It remains unclear exactly what happened and why.

But let's say the absolute worst is true. Why should that affect foreign policy 57 years later? We are strong allies with a number of former enemies.

---

When is Israel going to pay back the trillion dollars the American tax payer has given them? We sure could use the money with our historic debt-to-GDP.

Allies pay back their debts.

Enemies do not.

---

Israel just utterly destroyed two Iranian proxies which have killed thousands of Amcits and currently hold several hostage. That campaign also denied the Syrian regime of an ally it depended upon to defend the line of advance into Damascus, causing the fall of the Assad regime, an Iranian ally who has been on the State Sponsor of Terrorism...

---

Sure...100% correct

But don't act like they did it for America

Israel acts to the benefit of Israel only.....

---

Pre-1980 Iran was a very reliable proxy like Israel, too. A Shiite country surrounded by antagonistic Sunni countries, as well as a contiguous border with the USSR. Made them a very motivated ally. That is why Obama and Biden courted them so hard, foolishly hard. They wanted to flip them over to our side. And it was profoundly stupid, as the current regime is ideologically rooted in hatred of the West in general and USA in particular. As we have seen, no amount of inducements moved them an inch toward us and a lot more than that in the wrong direction.

.

---

I can certainly see why having Iran as pro-American ally would be very beneficial (big country, lots of oil, strategic location)

Still not sure what Israel it's us in the region that we already do not have.

But that is an interesting point about Obama-Biden still trying to pull Iran into the American orbit….though that seems like a lost cause given Irans current rulers

---

if you can't see what Israel has done for us in the last 12 months, I can't help you. Biggest bang for the buck, ever.

---

Interesting perspective.

Honestly think it's the other way around.

Without US financial support and military assets in the region……it's highly unlikely the rest of the Muslin world world have sat back while Israel invaded Gaza, Lebanon and Syria.

Killing thousands in the process.

---

......in the process killing millions of Jews and empowering Hizballah & Hamas which of course have killed thousands of Americans over the decades and still hold US hostages, leaving a pro-Russian/pro-Iranian regime in place to threaten a Nato ally (Turkey).

How exactly is that preferrable to US interests than what has happened?
-total destruction of Hamas
-near total destruction of Hizballah
-fall of a major terror-sponsor regime in Damascus
-total collapse of decades of Iranian policy aimed at undermining US power around the world
-effective collapse of decades of Palestinian destabilization of the region.

---

Preferable to US intersects is to let Israel fight their own wars and finance their own issues.

70 years of US involvement is more than enough.


Focus on the needs of Americans right here at home.

FLBear5630 said:

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historian said:

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Realitybites said:

---

Link to Interview

It is a given that most people haven't heard of the USS Liberty. It's something that is generally glossed over in history classes, if it is taught at all. Or at least it used to be that way.

The official explanation is it was a case of mistaken identity that led to the death of 34 American servicemen in an attack that lasted far longer - and with multiple waves - than a case of mistaken identity would allow for.

Friendly fire happens. Pat Tillman was the most recent well known case of this. The USS Liberty attack was absolutely not a case of friendly fire.

Go watch the video, and remember the casualties on that ship next time someone starts advocating for war in Ukraine, Syria, Iran, or elsewhere.

---

Here is a scholarly account of the attacks on the USS Liberty by a respectable historian:

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/quot-the-uss-liberty-case-closed-quot

Regardless of what happened 57 years ago I'm unsure why it matters so much now. Few Americans hold a grudge against Japan for Pearl Harbor, the Bataan Death March, or anything else related to WWII (same with Germany) so hold a grudge for an event from decades past? Both governments have moved on and I'm not sure what is served by dwelling on it today. Like Israel, we are now allies with Japan & Germany. Heck, during the war we were allies with the Soviet Union! Geopolitics is messy.

---

Thank you. Pilots said it was misidentification. Either we go to war with Israel or you take the word of an Allie.

---

there are no permanent allies or enemies, just permanent interests. Israel furthers ours. So does Japan, Germany, Italy, etc..... So does Vietnam. So does Saudi Arabia and Turkey.

Not always easy or fun, but common interests have a way of forging a manageable relationship.

do not fuck with the mossad, exhibit a:

"we create a pretend world. we are a global production company. we write the screenplay. we're the directors. we're the producers. we're the main actors. the world is our stage."

holy fuck pic.twitter.com/QTrel4xQt1

— Sam Sheffer (@samsheffer) December 23, 2024

KaiBear said:

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whiterock said:

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KaiBear said:

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whiterock said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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whiterock said:

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Redbrickbear said:

---

whiterock said:

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The_barBEARian said:

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sombear said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

Link to Interview

It is a given that most people haven't heard of the USS Liberty. It's something that is generally glossed over in history classes, if it is taught at all. Or at least it used to be that way.

The official explanation is it was a case of mistaken identity that led to the death of 34 American servicemen in an attack that lasted far longer - and with multiple waves - than a case of mistaken identity would allow for.

Friendly fire happens. Pat Tillman was the most recent well known case of this. The USS Liberty attack was absolutely not a case of friendly fire.

Go watch the video, and remember the casualties on that ship next time someone starts advocating for war in Ukraine, Syria, Iran, or elsewhere.

---

Most people haven't heard of it? It was covered in my rural Indiana high school and again in college.

It remains unclear exactly what happened and why.

But let's say the absolute worst is true. Why should that affect foreign policy 57 years later? We are strong allies with a number of former enemies.

---

When is Israel going to pay back the trillion dollars the American tax payer has given them? We sure could use the money with our historic debt-to-GDP.

Allies pay back their debts.

Enemies do not.

---

Israel just utterly destroyed two Iranian proxies which have killed thousands of Amcits and currently hold several hostage. That campaign also denied the Syrian regime of an ally it depended upon to defend the line of advance into Damascus, causing the fall of the Assad regime, an Iranian ally who has been on the State Sponsor of Terrorism...

---

Sure...100% correct

But don't act like they did it for America

Israel acts to the benefit of Israel only.....

---

Pre-1980 Iran was a very reliable proxy like Israel, too. A Shiite country surrounded by antagonistic Sunni countries, as well as a contiguous border with the USSR. Made them a very motivated ally. That is why Obama and Biden courted them so hard, foolishly hard. They wanted to flip them over to our side. And it was profoundly stupid, as the current regime is ideologically rooted in hatred of the West in general and USA in particular. As we have seen, no amount of inducements moved them an inch toward us and a lot more than that in the wrong direction.

.

---

I can certainly see why having Iran as pro-American ally would be very beneficial (big country, lots of oil, strategic location)

Still not sure what Israel it's us in the region that we already do not have.

But that is an interesting point about Obama-Biden still trying to pull Iran into the American orbit….though that seems like a lost cause given Irans current rulers

---

if you can't see what Israel has done for us in the last 12 months, I can't help you. Biggest bang for the buck, ever.

---

Interesting perspective.

Honestly think it's the other way around.

Without US financial support and military assets in the region……it's highly unlikely the rest of the Muslin world world have sat back while Israel invaded Gaza, Lebanon and Syria.

Killing thousands in the process.

---

......in the process killing millions of Jews and empowering Hizballah & Hamas which of course have killed thousands of Americans over the decades and still hold US hostages, leaving a pro-Russian/pro-Iranian regime in place to threaten a Nato ally (Turkey).

How exactly is that preferrable to US interests than what has happened?
-total destruction of Hamas
-near total destruction of Hizballah
-fall of a major terror-sponsor regime in Damascus
-total collapse of decades of Iranian policy aimed at undermining US power around the world
-effective collapse of decades of Palestinian destabilization of the region.

---

Preferable to US intersects is to let Israel fight their own wars and finance their own issues.
which is another way of saying "let the islamic world destroy Israel."
That is a policy option which has not one keystroke of benefit to the USA.
How many Israeli migrants would you be willing to host? All 10m of them?

70 years of US involvement is more than enough.
It's been highly effective, arguably more so dollar for dollar, than any other ally relationship.

Focus on the needs of Americans right here at home.

---

Israel is important to Americans here at home, a strong majority of which support the existence of the Jewish state.

The IDF might be another secret sauce behind the vigor of the Israeli people.

As I understand it, it's highly co-ed, and drafts basically everyone at 18.

Your Israeli youth is "launched" in life whether he likes it or not.

Can't really do the video game thing at Mom's. pic.twitter.com/qM07raseSK

— VB Knives (@Empty_America) December 24, 2024

whiterock said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

The_barBEARian said:

---

sombear said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

Link to Interview

It is a given that most people haven't heard of the USS Liberty. It's something that is generally glossed over in history classes, if it is taught at all. Or at least it used to be that way.

The official explanation is it was a case of mistaken identity that led to the death of 34 American servicemen in an attack that lasted far longer - and with multiple waves - than a case of mistaken identity would allow for.

Friendly fire happens. Pat Tillman was the most recent well known case of this. The USS Liberty attack was absolutely not a case of friendly fire.

Go watch the video, and remember the casualties on that ship next time someone starts advocating for war in Ukraine, Syria, Iran, or elsewhere.

---

Most people haven't heard of it? It was covered in my rural Indiana high school and again in college.

It remains unclear exactly what happened and why.

But let's say the absolute worst is true. Why should that affect foreign policy 57 years later? We are strong allies with a number of former enemies.

---

When is Israel going to pay back the trillion dollars the American tax payer has given them? We sure could use the money with our historic debt-to-GDP.

Allies pay back their debts.

Enemies do not.

---

Israel just utterly destroyed two Iranian proxies which have killed thousands of Amcits and currently hold several hostage. That campaign also denied the Syrian regime of an ally it depended upon to defend the line of advance into Damascus, causing the fall of the Assad regime, an Iranian ally who has been on the State Sponsor of Terrorism...

---

Sure...100% correct

But don't act like they did it for America

Israel acts to the benefit of Israel only.....

---

Pre-1980 Iran was a very reliable proxy like Israel, too. A Shiite country surrounded by antagonistic Sunni countries, as well as a contiguous border with the USSR. Made them a very motivated ally. That is why Obama and Biden courted them so hard, foolishly hard. They wanted to flip them over to our side. And it was profoundly stupid, as the current regime is ideologically rooted in hatred of the West in general and USA in particular. As we have seen, no amount of inducements moved them an inch toward us and a lot more than that in the wrong direction.

.

---

I can certainly see why having Iran as pro-American ally would be very beneficial (big country, lots of oil, strategic location)

Still not sure what Israel it's us in the region that we already do not have.

But that is an interesting point about Obama-Biden still trying to pull Iran into the American orbit….though that seems like a lost cause given Irans current rulers

---

if you can't see what Israel has done for us in the last 12 months, I can't help you. Biggest bang for the buck, ever.

---

Interesting perspective.

Honestly think it's the other way around.

Without US financial support and military assets in the region……it's highly unlikely the rest of the Muslin world world have sat back while Israel invaded Gaza, Lebanon and Syria.

Killing thousands in the process.

---

......in the process killing millions of Jews and empowering Hizballah & Hamas which of course have killed thousands of Americans over the decades and still hold US hostages, leaving a pro-Russian/pro-Iranian regime in place to threaten a Nato ally (Turkey).

How exactly is that preferrable to US interests than what has happened?
-total destruction of Hamas
-near total destruction of Hizballah
-fall of a major terror-sponsor regime in Damascus
-total collapse of decades of Iranian policy aimed at undermining US power around the world
-effective collapse of decades of Palestinian destabilization of the region.

---

Preferable to US intersects is to let Israel fight their own wars and finance their own issues.
which is another way of saying "let the islamic world destroy Israel."
That is a policy option which has not one keystroke of benefit to the USA.
How many Israeli migrants would you be willing to host? All 10m of them?

70 years of US involvement is more than enough.
It's been highly effective, arguably more so dollar for dollar, than any other ally relationship.

Focus on the needs of Americans right here at home.

---

Israel is important to Americans here at home, a strong majority of which support the existence of the Jewish state.

---

They are armed to the teeth and have nuclear weapons

Let's all stop this fantasy that the existence of the Jewish state is somehow under grave threat

(Not to mention their local Arab and Persian enemies are basically incompetent)

KaiBear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

The_barBEARian said:

---

sombear said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

Link to Interview

It is a given that most people haven't heard of the USS Liberty. It's something that is generally glossed over in history classes, if it is taught at all. Or at least it used to be that way.

The official explanation is it was a case of mistaken identity that led to the death of 34 American servicemen in an attack that lasted far longer - and with multiple waves - than a case of mistaken identity would allow for.

Friendly fire happens. Pat Tillman was the most recent well known case of this. The USS Liberty attack was absolutely not a case of friendly fire.

Go watch the video, and remember the casualties on that ship next time someone starts advocating for war in Ukraine, Syria, Iran, or elsewhere.

---

Most people haven't heard of it? It was covered in my rural Indiana high school and again in college.

It remains unclear exactly what happened and why.

But let's say the absolute worst is true. Why should that affect foreign policy 57 years later? We are strong allies with a number of former enemies.

---

When is Israel going to pay back the trillion dollars the American tax payer has given them? We sure could use the money with our historic debt-to-GDP.

Allies pay back their debts.

Enemies do not.

---

Israel just utterly destroyed two Iranian proxies which have killed thousands of Amcits and currently hold several hostage. That campaign also denied the Syrian regime of an ally it depended upon to defend the line of advance into Damascus, causing the fall of the Assad regime, an Iranian ally who has been on the State Sponsor of Terrorism...

---

Sure...100% correct

But don't act like they did it for America

Israel acts to the benefit of Israel only.....

---

Pre-1980 Iran was a very reliable proxy like Israel, too. A Shiite country surrounded by antagonistic Sunni countries, as well as a contiguous border with the USSR. Made them a very motivated ally. That is why Obama and Biden courted them so hard, foolishly hard. They wanted to flip them over to our side. And it was profoundly stupid, as the current regime is ideologically rooted in hatred of the West in general and USA in particular. As we have seen, no amount of inducements moved them an inch toward us and a lot more than that in the wrong direction.

.

---

I can certainly see why having Iran as pro-American ally would be very beneficial (big country, lots of oil, strategic location)

Still not sure what Israel it's us in the region that we already do not have.

But that is an interesting point about Obama-Biden still trying to pull Iran into the American orbit….though that seems like a lost cause given Irans current rulers

---

if you can't see what Israel has done for us in the last 12 months, I can't help you. Biggest bang for the buck, ever.

---

Interesting perspective.

Honestly think it's the other way around.

Without US financial support and military assets in the region……it's highly unlikely the rest of the Muslin world world have sat back while Israel invaded Gaza, Lebanon and Syria.

Killing thousands in the process.

---

......in the process killing millions of Jews and empowering Hizballah & Hamas which of course have killed thousands of Americans over the decades and still hold US hostages, leaving a pro-Russian/pro-Iranian regime in place to threaten a Nato ally (Turkey).

How exactly is that preferrable to US interests than what has happened?
-total destruction of Hamas
-near total destruction of Hizballah
-fall of a major terror-sponsor regime in Damascus
-total collapse of decades of Iranian policy aimed at undermining US power around the world
-effective collapse of decades of Palestinian destabilization of the region.

---

Preferable to US intersects is to let Israel fight their own wars and finance their own issues.
which is another way of saying "let the islamic world destroy Israel."
That is a policy option which has not one keystroke of benefit to the USA.
How many Israeli migrants would you be willing to host? All 10m of them?

70 years of US involvement is more than enough.
It's been highly effective, arguably more so dollar for dollar, than any other ally relationship.

Focus on the needs of Americans right here at home.

---

Israel is important to Americans here at home, a strong majority of which support the existence of the Jewish state.

---

70 years is enough period.

And you and I both know it's only gone on this long due to intense lobbying of our government officials.

---

For no more than we spend, we should do it forever. Biggest bang for the buck out of any ally.

And no, it is quite silly to suggest that our alliance with Israel is solely due to Jewish lobby money. The needs/benefits are quite obvious, no matter how hard you try not to see them.

Aid to Israel is less than 1% of the budget deficit, buddy...... And for that expense we got total destruction of Hamas & Hizballah, without a single drop of American soldier sweat.

I do believe you'd hack off your foot to save 50% on the cost trimming your toenails.

whiterock said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

The_barBEARian said:

---

sombear said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

Link to Interview

It is a given that most people haven't heard of the USS Liberty. It's something that is generally glossed over in history classes, if it is taught at all. Or at least it used to be that way.

The official explanation is it was a case of mistaken identity that led to the death of 34 American servicemen in an attack that lasted far longer - and with multiple waves - than a case of mistaken identity would allow for.

Friendly fire happens. Pat Tillman was the most recent well known case of this. The USS Liberty attack was absolutely not a case of friendly fire.

Go watch the video, and remember the casualties on that ship next time someone starts advocating for war in Ukraine, Syria, Iran, or elsewhere.

---

Most people haven't heard of it? It was covered in my rural Indiana high school and again in college.

It remains unclear exactly what happened and why.

But let's say the absolute worst is true. Why should that affect foreign policy 57 years later? We are strong allies with a number of former enemies.

---

When is Israel going to pay back the trillion dollars the American tax payer has given them? We sure could use the money with our historic debt-to-GDP.

Allies pay back their debts.

Enemies do not.

---

Israel just utterly destroyed two Iranian proxies which have killed thousands of Amcits and currently hold several hostage. That campaign also denied the Syrian regime of an ally it depended upon to defend the line of advance into Damascus, causing the fall of the Assad regime, an Iranian ally who has been on the State Sponsor of Terrorism...

---

Sure...100% correct

But don't act like they did it for America

Israel acts to the benefit of Israel only.....

---

Pre-1980 Iran was a very reliable proxy like Israel, too. A Shiite country surrounded by antagonistic Sunni countries, as well as a contiguous border with the USSR. Made them a very motivated ally. That is why Obama and Biden courted them so hard, foolishly hard. They wanted to flip them over to our side. And it was profoundly stupid, as the current regime is ideologically rooted in hatred of the West in general and USA in particular. As we have seen, no amount of inducements moved them an inch toward us and a lot more than that in the wrong direction.

.

---

I can certainly see why having Iran as pro-American ally would be very beneficial (big country, lots of oil, strategic location)

Still not sure what Israel it's us in the region that we already do not have.

But that is an interesting point about Obama-Biden still trying to pull Iran into the American orbit….though that seems like a lost cause given Irans current rulers

---

if you can't see what Israel has done for us in the last 12 months, I can't help you. Biggest bang for the buck, ever.

---

Interesting perspective.

Honestly think it's the other way around.

Without US financial support and military assets in the region……it's highly unlikely the rest of the Muslin world world have sat back while Israel invaded Gaza, Lebanon and Syria.

Killing thousands in the process.

---

......in the process killing millions of Jews and empowering Hizballah & Hamas which of course have killed thousands of Americans over the decades and still hold US hostages, leaving a pro-Russian/pro-Iranian regime in place to threaten a Nato ally (Turkey).

How exactly is that preferrable to US interests than what has happened?
-total destruction of Hamas
-near total destruction of Hizballah
-fall of a major terror-sponsor regime in Damascus
-total collapse of decades of Iranian policy aimed at undermining US power around the world
-effective collapse of decades of Palestinian destabilization of the region.

---

Preferable to US intersects is to let Israel fight their own wars and finance their own issues.
which is another way of saying "let the islamic world destroy Israel."
That is a policy option which has not one keystroke of benefit to the USA.
How many Israeli migrants would you be willing to host? All 10m of them?

70 years of US involvement is more than enough.
It's been highly effective, arguably more so dollar for dollar, than any other ally relationship.

Focus on the needs of Americans right here at home.

---

Israel is important to Americans here at home, a strong majority of which support the existence of the Jewish state.

---

70 years is enough period.

And you and I both know it's only gone on this long due to intense lobbying of our government officials.

---

For no more than we spend, we should do it forever. Biggest bang for the buck out of any ally.

And no, it is quite silly to suggest that our alliance with Israel is solely due to Jewish lobby money. The needs/benefits are quite obvious, no matter how hard you try not to see them.

Aid to Israel is less than 1% of the budget deficit, buddy...... And for that expense we got total destruction of Hamas & Hizballah, without a single drop of American soldier sweat.

I do believe you'd hack off your foot to save 50% on the cost trimming your toenails.

---

Stupid post.

We have spent billions of dollars on Israel annually for decades.

It's only done at this point due to millions of dollars given to our political operatives by Israeli lobbyists.


70 years worth…..take a moment and really let that sink in.


Time to focus on our own problems ; our own people.

whiterock said:

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KaiBear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

The_barBEARian said:

---

sombear said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

Link to Interview

It is a given that most people haven't heard of the USS Liberty. It's something that is generally glossed over in history classes, if it is taught at all. Or at least it used to be that way.

The official explanation is it was a case of mistaken identity that led to the death of 34 American servicemen in an attack that lasted far longer - and with multiple waves - than a case of mistaken identity would allow for.

Friendly fire happens. Pat Tillman was the most recent well known case of this. The USS Liberty attack was absolutely not a case of friendly fire.

Go watch the video, and remember the casualties on that ship next time someone starts advocating for war in Ukraine, Syria, Iran, or elsewhere.

---

Most people haven't heard of it? It was covered in my rural Indiana high school and again in college.

It remains unclear exactly what happened and why.

But let's say the absolute worst is true. Why should that affect foreign policy 57 years later? We are strong allies with a number of former enemies.

---

When is Israel going to pay back the trillion dollars the American tax payer has given them? We sure could use the money with our historic debt-to-GDP.

Allies pay back their debts.

Enemies do not.

---

Israel just utterly destroyed two Iranian proxies which have killed thousands of Amcits and currently hold several hostage. That campaign also denied the Syrian regime of an ally it depended upon to defend the line of advance into Damascus, causing the fall of the Assad regime, an Iranian ally who has been on the State Sponsor of Terrorism...

---

Sure...100% correct

But don't act like they did it for America

Israel acts to the benefit of Israel only.....

---

Pre-1980 Iran was a very reliable proxy like Israel, too. A Shiite country surrounded by antagonistic Sunni countries, as well as a contiguous border with the USSR. Made them a very motivated ally. That is why Obama and Biden courted them so hard, foolishly hard. They wanted to flip them over to our side. And it was profoundly stupid, as the current regime is ideologically rooted in hatred of the West in general and USA in particular. As we have seen, no amount of inducements moved them an inch toward us and a lot more than that in the wrong direction.

.

---

I can certainly see why having Iran as pro-American ally would be very beneficial (big country, lots of oil, strategic location)

Still not sure what Israel it's us in the region that we already do not have.

But that is an interesting point about Obama-Biden still trying to pull Iran into the American orbit….though that seems like a lost cause given Irans current rulers

---

if you can't see what Israel has done for us in the last 12 months, I can't help you. Biggest bang for the buck, ever.

---

Interesting perspective.

Honestly think it's the other way around.

Without US financial support and military assets in the region……it's highly unlikely the rest of the Muslin world world have sat back while Israel invaded Gaza, Lebanon and Syria.

Killing thousands in the process.

---

......in the process killing millions of Jews and empowering Hizballah & Hamas which of course have killed thousands of Americans over the decades and still hold US hostages, leaving a pro-Russian/pro-Iranian regime in place to threaten a Nato ally (Turkey).

How exactly is that preferrable to US interests than what has happened?
-total destruction of Hamas
-near total destruction of Hizballah
-fall of a major terror-sponsor regime in Damascus
-total collapse of decades of Iranian policy aimed at undermining US power around the world
-effective collapse of decades of Palestinian destabilization of the region.

---

Preferable to US intersects is to let Israel fight their own wars and finance their own issues.
which is another way of saying "let the islamic world destroy Israel."
That is a policy option which has not one keystroke of benefit to the USA.
How many Israeli migrants would you be willing to host? All 10m of them?

70 years of US involvement is more than enough.
It's been highly effective, arguably more so dollar for dollar, than any other ally relationship.

Focus on the needs of Americans right here at home.

---

Israel is important to Americans here at home, a strong majority of which support the existence of the Jewish state.

---

70 years is enough period.

And you and I both know it's only gone on this long due to intense lobbying of our government officials.

---

1. For no more than we spend, we should do it forever. Biggest bang for the buck out of any ally.

2. And no, it is quite silly to suggest that our alliance with Israel is solely due to Jewish lobby money. The needs/benefits are quite obvious, no matter how hard you try not to see them.

---

1. Debatable...but I am open to a hearing a debate between two people with knowledge of the subject matter talk about the pros and cons of the arraignment

I make no statement on personally knowing if it is or is not the best bang for our buck

2. Jews are a major constituently of the Democratic party and Evangelicals are a major constituency of the Republican party

Two groups willing to pour a lot of money....and exert a lot of influence in DC to create a lot of head wing against anything other than a ultra pro-Israel policy in DC

But yes there is 100% a powerful Jewish lobby in DC among the Democrats and a powerful Evangelical lobby among the Republicans pushing our foreign policy in one direction

Redbrickbear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

The_barBEARian said:

---

sombear said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

Link to Interview

It is a given that most people haven't heard of the USS Liberty. It's something that is generally glossed over in history classes, if it is taught at all. Or at least it used to be that way.

The official explanation is it was a case of mistaken identity that led to the death of 34 American servicemen in an attack that lasted far longer - and with multiple waves - than a case of mistaken identity would allow for.

Friendly fire happens. Pat Tillman was the most recent well known case of this. The USS Liberty attack was absolutely not a case of friendly fire.

Go watch the video, and remember the casualties on that ship next time someone starts advocating for war in Ukraine, Syria, Iran, or elsewhere.

---

Most people haven't heard of it? It was covered in my rural Indiana high school and again in college.

It remains unclear exactly what happened and why.

But let's say the absolute worst is true. Why should that affect foreign policy 57 years later? We are strong allies with a number of former enemies.

---

When is Israel going to pay back the trillion dollars the American tax payer has given them? We sure could use the money with our historic debt-to-GDP.

Allies pay back their debts.

Enemies do not.

---

Israel just utterly destroyed two Iranian proxies which have killed thousands of Amcits and currently hold several hostage. That campaign also denied the Syrian regime of an ally it depended upon to defend the line of advance into Damascus, causing the fall of the Assad regime, an Iranian ally who has been on the State Sponsor of Terrorism...

---

Sure...100% correct

But don't act like they did it for America

Israel acts to the benefit of Israel only.....

---

Pre-1980 Iran was a very reliable proxy like Israel, too. A Shiite country surrounded by antagonistic Sunni countries, as well as a contiguous border with the USSR. Made them a very motivated ally. That is why Obama and Biden courted them so hard, foolishly hard. They wanted to flip them over to our side. And it was profoundly stupid, as the current regime is ideologically rooted in hatred of the West in general and USA in particular. As we have seen, no amount of inducements moved them an inch toward us and a lot more than that in the wrong direction.

.

---

I can certainly see why having Iran as pro-American ally would be very beneficial (big country, lots of oil, strategic location)

Still not sure what Israel it's us in the region that we already do not have.

But that is an interesting point about Obama-Biden still trying to pull Iran into the American orbit….though that seems like a lost cause given Irans current rulers

---

if you can't see what Israel has done for us in the last 12 months, I can't help you. Biggest bang for the buck, ever.

---

Interesting perspective.

Honestly think it's the other way around.

Without US financial support and military assets in the region……it's highly unlikely the rest of the Muslin world world have sat back while Israel invaded Gaza, Lebanon and Syria.

Killing thousands in the process.

---

......in the process killing millions of Jews and empowering Hizballah & Hamas which of course have killed thousands of Americans over the decades and still hold US hostages, leaving a pro-Russian/pro-Iranian regime in place to threaten a Nato ally (Turkey).

How exactly is that preferrable to US interests than what has happened?
-total destruction of Hamas
-near total destruction of Hizballah
-fall of a major terror-sponsor regime in Damascus
-total collapse of decades of Iranian policy aimed at undermining US power around the world
-effective collapse of decades of Palestinian destabilization of the region.

---

Preferable to US intersects is to let Israel fight their own wars and finance their own issues.
which is another way of saying "let the islamic world destroy Israel."
That is a policy option which has not one keystroke of benefit to the USA.
How many Israeli migrants would you be willing to host? All 10m of them?

70 years of US involvement is more than enough.
It's been highly effective, arguably more so dollar for dollar, than any other ally relationship.

Focus on the needs of Americans right here at home.

---

Israel is important to Americans here at home, a strong majority of which support the existence of the Jewish state.

---

They are armed to the teeth and have nuclear weapons

Let's all stop this fantasy that the existence of the Jewish state is somehow under grave threat

(Not to mention their local Arab and Persian enemies are basically incompetent)

---

Even if true, they didn't get there by accident. They needed our (and others) help, they kicked ass, and they never took their eye of the ball.

But I disagree with your premise. They will always be under threat because they are surrounded by whackos who want to destroy them and many of which want to die for their cause.

sombear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

The_barBEARian said:

---

sombear said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

Link to Interview

It is a given that most people haven't heard of the USS Liberty. It's something that is generally glossed over in history classes, if it is taught at all. Or at least it used to be that way.

The official explanation is it was a case of mistaken identity that led to the death of 34 American servicemen in an attack that lasted far longer - and with multiple waves - than a case of mistaken identity would allow for.

Friendly fire happens. Pat Tillman was the most recent well known case of this. The USS Liberty attack was absolutely not a case of friendly fire.

Go watch the video, and remember the casualties on that ship next time someone starts advocating for war in Ukraine, Syria, Iran, or elsewhere.

---

Most people haven't heard of it? It was covered in my rural Indiana high school and again in college.

It remains unclear exactly what happened and why.

But let's say the absolute worst is true. Why should that affect foreign policy 57 years later? We are strong allies with a number of former enemies.

---

When is Israel going to pay back the trillion dollars the American tax payer has given them? We sure could use the money with our historic debt-to-GDP.

Allies pay back their debts.

Enemies do not.

---

Israel just utterly destroyed two Iranian proxies which have killed thousands of Amcits and currently hold several hostage. That campaign also denied the Syrian regime of an ally it depended upon to defend the line of advance into Damascus, causing the fall of the Assad regime, an Iranian ally who has been on the State Sponsor of Terrorism...

---

Sure...100% correct

But don't act like they did it for America

Israel acts to the benefit of Israel only.....

---

Pre-1980 Iran was a very reliable proxy like Israel, too. A Shiite country surrounded by antagonistic Sunni countries, as well as a contiguous border with the USSR. Made them a very motivated ally. That is why Obama and Biden courted them so hard, foolishly hard. They wanted to flip them over to our side. And it was profoundly stupid, as the current regime is ideologically rooted in hatred of the West in general and USA in particular. As we have seen, no amount of inducements moved them an inch toward us and a lot more than that in the wrong direction.

.

---

I can certainly see why having Iran as pro-American ally would be very beneficial (big country, lots of oil, strategic location)

Still not sure what Israel it's us in the region that we already do not have.

But that is an interesting point about Obama-Biden still trying to pull Iran into the American orbit….though that seems like a lost cause given Irans current rulers

---

if you can't see what Israel has done for us in the last 12 months, I can't help you. Biggest bang for the buck, ever.

---

Interesting perspective.

Honestly think it's the other way around.

Without US financial support and military assets in the region……it's highly unlikely the rest of the Muslin world world have sat back while Israel invaded Gaza, Lebanon and Syria.

Killing thousands in the process.

---

......in the process killing millions of Jews and empowering Hizballah & Hamas which of course have killed thousands of Americans over the decades and still hold US hostages, leaving a pro-Russian/pro-Iranian regime in place to threaten a Nato ally (Turkey).

How exactly is that preferrable to US interests than what has happened?
-total destruction of Hamas
-near total destruction of Hizballah
-fall of a major terror-sponsor regime in Damascus
-total collapse of decades of Iranian policy aimed at undermining US power around the world
-effective collapse of decades of Palestinian destabilization of the region.

---

Preferable to US intersects is to let Israel fight their own wars and finance their own issues.
which is another way of saying "let the islamic world destroy Israel."
That is a policy option which has not one keystroke of benefit to the USA.
How many Israeli migrants would you be willing to host? All 10m of them?

70 years of US involvement is more than enough.
It's been highly effective, arguably more so dollar for dollar, than any other ally relationship.

Focus on the needs of Americans right here at home.

---

Israel is important to Americans here at home, a strong majority of which support the existence of the Jewish state.

---

They are armed to the teeth and have nuclear weapons

Let's all stop this fantasy that the existence of the Jewish state is somehow under grave threat

(Not to mention their local Arab and Persian enemies are basically incompetent)

---

Even if true, they didn't get there by accident. They needed our (and others) help, they kicked ass, and they never took their eye of the ball.

But I disagree with your premise. They will always be under threat because they are surrounded by whackos who want to destroy them and many of which want to die for their cause.

---

Lets say your right and they will "always be under threat and surrounded by whackos"

Why should the American people and tax payers be endlessly on the hook to protect the Jews there so they can have their own ethno-state surrounded by Arab muslims?

Are we gonna be funding them 100 years into the future? 500 years into the future? 1,000 years?

When did we have a national conversation about how the DC elite were signing us up for supporting one side in a never ending racial/ethnic conflict on the other side of the planet....

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

The_barBEARian said:

---

sombear said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

Link to Interview

It is a given that most people haven't heard of the USS Liberty. It's something that is generally glossed over in history classes, if it is taught at all. Or at least it used to be that way.

The official explanation is it was a case of mistaken identity that led to the death of 34 American servicemen in an attack that lasted far longer - and with multiple waves - than a case of mistaken identity would allow for.

Friendly fire happens. Pat Tillman was the most recent well known case of this. The USS Liberty attack was absolutely not a case of friendly fire.

Go watch the video, and remember the casualties on that ship next time someone starts advocating for war in Ukraine, Syria, Iran, or elsewhere.

---

Most people haven't heard of it? It was covered in my rural Indiana high school and again in college.

It remains unclear exactly what happened and why.

But let's say the absolute worst is true. Why should that affect foreign policy 57 years later? We are strong allies with a number of former enemies.

---

When is Israel going to pay back the trillion dollars the American tax payer has given them? We sure could use the money with our historic debt-to-GDP.

Allies pay back their debts.

Enemies do not.

---

Israel just utterly destroyed two Iranian proxies which have killed thousands of Amcits and currently hold several hostage. That campaign also denied the Syrian regime of an ally it depended upon to defend the line of advance into Damascus, causing the fall of the Assad regime, an Iranian ally who has been on the State Sponsor of Terrorism...

---

Sure...100% correct

But don't act like they did it for America

Israel acts to the benefit of Israel only.....

---

Pre-1980 Iran was a very reliable proxy like Israel, too. A Shiite country surrounded by antagonistic Sunni countries, as well as a contiguous border with the USSR. Made them a very motivated ally. That is why Obama and Biden courted them so hard, foolishly hard. They wanted to flip them over to our side. And it was profoundly stupid, as the current regime is ideologically rooted in hatred of the West in general and USA in particular. As we have seen, no amount of inducements moved them an inch toward us and a lot more than that in the wrong direction.

.

---

I can certainly see why having Iran as pro-American ally would be very beneficial (big country, lots of oil, strategic location)

Still not sure what Israel it's us in the region that we already do not have.

But that is an interesting point about Obama-Biden still trying to pull Iran into the American orbit….though that seems like a lost cause given Irans current rulers

---

if you can't see what Israel has done for us in the last 12 months, I can't help you. Biggest bang for the buck, ever.

---

Interesting perspective.

Honestly think it's the other way around.

Without US financial support and military assets in the region……it's highly unlikely the rest of the Muslin world world have sat back while Israel invaded Gaza, Lebanon and Syria.

Killing thousands in the process.

---

......in the process killing millions of Jews and empowering Hizballah & Hamas which of course have killed thousands of Americans over the decades and still hold US hostages, leaving a pro-Russian/pro-Iranian regime in place to threaten a Nato ally (Turkey).

How exactly is that preferrable to US interests than what has happened?
-total destruction of Hamas
-near total destruction of Hizballah
-fall of a major terror-sponsor regime in Damascus
-total collapse of decades of Iranian policy aimed at undermining US power around the world
-effective collapse of decades of Palestinian destabilization of the region.

---

Preferable to US intersects is to let Israel fight their own wars and finance their own issues.
which is another way of saying "let the islamic world destroy Israel."
That is a policy option which has not one keystroke of benefit to the USA.
How many Israeli migrants would you be willing to host? All 10m of them?

70 years of US involvement is more than enough.
It's been highly effective, arguably more so dollar for dollar, than any other ally relationship.

Focus on the needs of Americans right here at home.

---

Israel is important to Americans here at home, a strong majority of which support the existence of the Jewish state.

---

They are armed to the teeth and have nuclear weapons

Let's all stop this fantasy that the existence of the Jewish state is somehow under grave threat

(Not to mention their local Arab and Persian enemies are basically incompetent)

---

Even if true, they didn't get there by accident. They needed our (and others) help, they kicked ass, and they never took their eye of the ball.

But I disagree with your premise. They will always be under threat because they are surrounded by whackos who want to destroy them and many of which want to die for their cause.

---

Lets say your right and they will "always be under threat and surrounded by whackos"

Why should the American people and tax payers be endlessly on the hook to protect the Jews there so they can have their own ethno-state surrounded by Arab muslims?

Are we gonna be funding them 100 years into the future? 500 years into the future? 1,000 years?

When did we have a national conversation about how the DC elite were signing us up for supporting one side in a never ending racial/ethnic conflict on the other side of the planet....

---

We'll do it until the American public turns against it, and that day appears to be coming based on polling of the younger generations.

Or, more middle east countries continue to align (or at least make true peace) with Israel. Israel will never be able to completely let its guard down, of course, but they might not always be as dependent on us and our allies.

My position hasn't changed. We're supporting the one free, pro-U.S. country in the region. Israel's enemies mostly hate us also. Israel gives us a key ally in the heart of it all with unmatched intel capabilities and increasingly important defense, IT, and medical tech.

sombear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

The_barBEARian said:

---

sombear said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

Link to Interview

It is a given that most people haven't heard of the USS Liberty. It's something that is generally glossed over in history classes, if it is taught at all. Or at least it used to be that way.

The official explanation is it was a case of mistaken identity that led to the death of 34 American servicemen in an attack that lasted far longer - and with multiple waves - than a case of mistaken identity would allow for.

Friendly fire happens. Pat Tillman was the most recent well known case of this. The USS Liberty attack was absolutely not a case of friendly fire.

Go watch the video, and remember the casualties on that ship next time someone starts advocating for war in Ukraine, Syria, Iran, or elsewhere.

---

Most people haven't heard of it? It was covered in my rural Indiana high school and again in college.

It remains unclear exactly what happened and why.

But let's say the absolute worst is true. Why should that affect foreign policy 57 years later? We are strong allies with a number of former enemies.

---

When is Israel going to pay back the trillion dollars the American tax payer has given them? We sure could use the money with our historic debt-to-GDP.

Allies pay back their debts.

Enemies do not.

---

Israel just utterly destroyed two Iranian proxies which have killed thousands of Amcits and currently hold several hostage. That campaign also denied the Syrian regime of an ally it depended upon to defend the line of advance into Damascus, causing the fall of the Assad regime, an Iranian ally who has been on the State Sponsor of Terrorism...

---

Sure...100% correct

But don't act like they did it for America

Israel acts to the benefit of Israel only.....

---

Pre-1980 Iran was a very reliable proxy like Israel, too. A Shiite country surrounded by antagonistic Sunni countries, as well as a contiguous border with the USSR. Made them a very motivated ally. That is why Obama and Biden courted them so hard, foolishly hard. They wanted to flip them over to our side. And it was profoundly stupid, as the current regime is ideologically rooted in hatred of the West in general and USA in particular. As we have seen, no amount of inducements moved them an inch toward us and a lot more than that in the wrong direction.

.

---

I can certainly see why having Iran as pro-American ally would be very beneficial (big country, lots of oil, strategic location)

Still not sure what Israel it's us in the region that we already do not have.

But that is an interesting point about Obama-Biden still trying to pull Iran into the American orbit….though that seems like a lost cause given Irans current rulers

---

if you can't see what Israel has done for us in the last 12 months, I can't help you. Biggest bang for the buck, ever.

---

Interesting perspective.

Honestly think it's the other way around.

Without US financial support and military assets in the region……it's highly unlikely the rest of the Muslin world world have sat back while Israel invaded Gaza, Lebanon and Syria.

Killing thousands in the process.

---

......in the process killing millions of Jews and empowering Hizballah & Hamas which of course have killed thousands of Americans over the decades and still hold US hostages, leaving a pro-Russian/pro-Iranian regime in place to threaten a Nato ally (Turkey).

How exactly is that preferrable to US interests than what has happened?
-total destruction of Hamas
-near total destruction of Hizballah
-fall of a major terror-sponsor regime in Damascus
-total collapse of decades of Iranian policy aimed at undermining US power around the world
-effective collapse of decades of Palestinian destabilization of the region.

---

Preferable to US intersects is to let Israel fight their own wars and finance their own issues.
which is another way of saying "let the islamic world destroy Israel."
That is a policy option which has not one keystroke of benefit to the USA.
How many Israeli migrants would you be willing to host? All 10m of them?

70 years of US involvement is more than enough.
It's been highly effective, arguably more so dollar for dollar, than any other ally relationship.

Focus on the needs of Americans right here at home.

---

Israel is important to Americans here at home, a strong majority of which support the existence of the Jewish state.

---

They are armed to the teeth and have nuclear weapons

Let's all stop this fantasy that the existence of the Jewish state is somehow under grave threat

(Not to mention their local Arab and Persian enemies are basically incompetent)

---

Even if true, they didn't get there by accident. They needed our (and others) help, they kicked ass, and they never took their eye of the ball.

But I disagree with your premise. They will always be under threat because they are surrounded by whackos who want to destroy them and many of which want to die for their cause.

---

Lets say your right and they will "always be under threat and surrounded by whackos"

Why should the American people and tax payers be endlessly on the hook to protect the Jews there so they can have their own ethno-state surrounded by Arab muslims?

Are we gonna be funding them 100 years into the future? 500 years into the future? 1,000 years?

When did we have a national conversation about how the DC elite were signing us up for supporting one side in a never ending racial/ethnic conflict on the other side of the planet....

---

1. We'll do it until the American public turns against it, and that day appears to be coming based on polling of the younger generations.

2. Or, more middle east countries continue to align (or at least make true peace) with Israel. Israel will never be able to completely let its guard down, of course, but they might not always be as dependent on us and our allies.

---

Agree with that a little.

1. As American jews become less religious/less ethnic centric and more culturally leftist you will probably see support for Israel slide...I think we are already seeing that a little on the left

And the same goes for as the country becomes less Christian you will see a similar slide on the Right. I don't know many people under the age of 40 who care much about John Hagee style Christian-Zionism stuff. Heck most people I know under 40 are not even attending Churches of any kind (but that is another topic)

2. I think that is a very interesting development with the Gulf Arabs (long hostile to Israel) starting to possible warm up to them because of the fear of Iran

That could potentially change the game in the Middle East

KaiBear said:

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whiterock said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

The_barBEARian said:

---

sombear said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

Link to Interview

It is a given that most people haven't heard of the USS Liberty. It's something that is generally glossed over in history classes, if it is taught at all. Or at least it used to be that way.

The official explanation is it was a case of mistaken identity that led to the death of 34 American servicemen in an attack that lasted far longer - and with multiple waves - than a case of mistaken identity would allow for.

Friendly fire happens. Pat Tillman was the most recent well known case of this. The USS Liberty attack was absolutely not a case of friendly fire.

Go watch the video, and remember the casualties on that ship next time someone starts advocating for war in Ukraine, Syria, Iran, or elsewhere.

---

Most people haven't heard of it? It was covered in my rural Indiana high school and again in college.

It remains unclear exactly what happened and why.

But let's say the absolute worst is true. Why should that affect foreign policy 57 years later? We are strong allies with a number of former enemies.

---

When is Israel going to pay back the trillion dollars the American tax payer has given them? We sure could use the money with our historic debt-to-GDP.

Allies pay back their debts.

Enemies do not.

---

Israel just utterly destroyed two Iranian proxies which have killed thousands of Amcits and currently hold several hostage. That campaign also denied the Syrian regime of an ally it depended upon to defend the line of advance into Damascus, causing the fall of the Assad regime, an Iranian ally who has been on the State Sponsor of Terrorism...

---

Sure...100% correct

But don't act like they did it for America

Israel acts to the benefit of Israel only.....

---

Pre-1980 Iran was a very reliable proxy like Israel, too. A Shiite country surrounded by antagonistic Sunni countries, as well as a contiguous border with the USSR. Made them a very motivated ally. That is why Obama and Biden courted them so hard, foolishly hard. They wanted to flip them over to our side. And it was profoundly stupid, as the current regime is ideologically rooted in hatred of the West in general and USA in particular. As we have seen, no amount of inducements moved them an inch toward us and a lot more than that in the wrong direction.

.

---

I can certainly see why having Iran as pro-American ally would be very beneficial (big country, lots of oil, strategic location)

Still not sure what Israel it's us in the region that we already do not have.

But that is an interesting point about Obama-Biden still trying to pull Iran into the American orbit….though that seems like a lost cause given Irans current rulers

---

if you can't see what Israel has done for us in the last 12 months, I can't help you. Biggest bang for the buck, ever.

---

Interesting perspective.

Honestly think it's the other way around.

Without US financial support and military assets in the region……it's highly unlikely the rest of the Muslin world world have sat back while Israel invaded Gaza, Lebanon and Syria.

Killing thousands in the process.

---

......in the process killing millions of Jews and empowering Hizballah & Hamas which of course have killed thousands of Americans over the decades and still hold US hostages, leaving a pro-Russian/pro-Iranian regime in place to threaten a Nato ally (Turkey).

How exactly is that preferrable to US interests than what has happened?
-total destruction of Hamas
-near total destruction of Hizballah
-fall of a major terror-sponsor regime in Damascus
-total collapse of decades of Iranian policy aimed at undermining US power around the world
-effective collapse of decades of Palestinian destabilization of the region.

---

Preferable to US intersects is to let Israel fight their own wars and finance their own issues.
which is another way of saying "let the islamic world destroy Israel."
That is a policy option which has not one keystroke of benefit to the USA.
How many Israeli migrants would you be willing to host? All 10m of them?

70 years of US involvement is more than enough.
It's been highly effective, arguably more so dollar for dollar, than any other ally relationship.

Focus on the needs of Americans right here at home.

---

Israel is important to Americans here at home, a strong majority of which support the existence of the Jewish state.

---

70 years is enough period.

And you and I both know it's only gone on this long due to intense lobbying of our government officials.

---

For no more than we spend, we should do it forever. Biggest bang for the buck out of any ally.

And no, it is quite silly to suggest that our alliance with Israel is solely due to Jewish lobby money. The needs/benefits are quite obvious, no matter how hard you try not to see them.

Aid to Israel is less than 1% of the budget deficit, buddy...... And for that expense we got total destruction of Hamas & Hizballah, without a single drop of American soldier sweat.

I do believe you'd hack off your foot to save 50% on the cost trimming your toenails.

---

Stupid post.

We have spent billions of dollars on Israel annually for decades.

It's only done at this point due to millions of dollars given to our political operatives by Israeli lobbyists.


70 years worth…..take a moment and really let that sink in.


Time to focus on our own problems ; our own people.

---

We spend Trillions every year on our own people and our own problems. You feeling the impact? You think another couple Billion would help? If you'd rather save the money, then that's a legit argument. Otherwise, reallocation won't do anything, especially when there's at least a modicum of ROI in the Israel investment.

ATL Bear said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

The_barBEARian said:

---

sombear said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

Link to Interview

It is a given that most people haven't heard of the USS Liberty. It's something that is generally glossed over in history classes, if it is taught at all. Or at least it used to be that way.

The official explanation is it was a case of mistaken identity that led to the death of 34 American servicemen in an attack that lasted far longer - and with multiple waves - than a case of mistaken identity would allow for.

Friendly fire happens. Pat Tillman was the most recent well known case of this. The USS Liberty attack was absolutely not a case of friendly fire.

Go watch the video, and remember the casualties on that ship next time someone starts advocating for war in Ukraine, Syria, Iran, or elsewhere.

---

Most people haven't heard of it? It was covered in my rural Indiana high school and again in college.

It remains unclear exactly what happened and why.

But let's say the absolute worst is true. Why should that affect foreign policy 57 years later? We are strong allies with a number of former enemies.

---

When is Israel going to pay back the trillion dollars the American tax payer has given them? We sure could use the money with our historic debt-to-GDP.

Allies pay back their debts.

Enemies do not.

---

Israel just utterly destroyed two Iranian proxies which have killed thousands of Amcits and currently hold several hostage. That campaign also denied the Syrian regime of an ally it depended upon to defend the line of advance into Damascus, causing the fall of the Assad regime, an Iranian ally who has been on the State Sponsor of Terrorism...

---

Sure...100% correct

But don't act like they did it for America

Israel acts to the benefit of Israel only.....

---

Pre-1980 Iran was a very reliable proxy like Israel, too. A Shiite country surrounded by antagonistic Sunni countries, as well as a contiguous border with the USSR. Made them a very motivated ally. That is why Obama and Biden courted them so hard, foolishly hard. They wanted to flip them over to our side. And it was profoundly stupid, as the current regime is ideologically rooted in hatred of the West in general and USA in particular. As we have seen, no amount of inducements moved them an inch toward us and a lot more than that in the wrong direction.

.

---

I can certainly see why having Iran as pro-American ally would be very beneficial (big country, lots of oil, strategic location)

Still not sure what Israel it's us in the region that we already do not have.

But that is an interesting point about Obama-Biden still trying to pull Iran into the American orbit….though that seems like a lost cause given Irans current rulers

---

if you can't see what Israel has done for us in the last 12 months, I can't help you. Biggest bang for the buck, ever.

---

Interesting perspective.

Honestly think it's the other way around.

Without US financial support and military assets in the region……it's highly unlikely the rest of the Muslin world world have sat back while Israel invaded Gaza, Lebanon and Syria.

Killing thousands in the process.

---

......in the process killing millions of Jews and empowering Hizballah & Hamas which of course have killed thousands of Americans over the decades and still hold US hostages, leaving a pro-Russian/pro-Iranian regime in place to threaten a Nato ally (Turkey).

How exactly is that preferrable to US interests than what has happened?
-total destruction of Hamas
-near total destruction of Hizballah
-fall of a major terror-sponsor regime in Damascus
-total collapse of decades of Iranian policy aimed at undermining US power around the world
-effective collapse of decades of Palestinian destabilization of the region.

---

Preferable to US intersects is to let Israel fight their own wars and finance their own issues.
which is another way of saying "let the islamic world destroy Israel."
That is a policy option which has not one keystroke of benefit to the USA.
How many Israeli migrants would you be willing to host? All 10m of them?

70 years of US involvement is more than enough.
It's been highly effective, arguably more so dollar for dollar, than any other ally relationship.

Focus on the needs of Americans right here at home.

---

Israel is important to Americans here at home, a strong majority of which support the existence of the Jewish state.

---

70 years is enough period.

And you and I both know it's only gone on this long due to intense lobbying of our government officials.

---

For no more than we spend, we should do it forever. Biggest bang for the buck out of any ally.

And no, it is quite silly to suggest that our alliance with Israel is solely due to Jewish lobby money. The needs/benefits are quite obvious, no matter how hard you try not to see them.

Aid to Israel is less than 1% of the budget deficit, buddy...... And for that expense we got total destruction of Hamas & Hizballah, without a single drop of American soldier sweat.

I do believe you'd hack off your foot to save 50% on the cost trimming your toenails.

---

Stupid post.

We have spent billions of dollars on Israel annually for decades.

It's only done at this point due to millions of dollars given to our political operatives by Israeli lobbyists.


70 years worth…..take a moment and really let that sink in.


Time to focus on our own problems ; our own people.

---

We spend Trillions every year on our own people and our own problems. You feeling the impact? You think another couple Billion would help?

---

Yes....to the people who would be effected positively by that billion its very important

Redbrickbear said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

The_barBEARian said:

---

sombear said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

Link to Interview

It is a given that most people haven't heard of the USS Liberty. It's something that is generally glossed over in history classes, if it is taught at all. Or at least it used to be that way.

The official explanation is it was a case of mistaken identity that led to the death of 34 American servicemen in an attack that lasted far longer - and with multiple waves - than a case of mistaken identity would allow for.

Friendly fire happens. Pat Tillman was the most recent well known case of this. The USS Liberty attack was absolutely not a case of friendly fire.

Go watch the video, and remember the casualties on that ship next time someone starts advocating for war in Ukraine, Syria, Iran, or elsewhere.

---

Most people haven't heard of it? It was covered in my rural Indiana high school and again in college.

It remains unclear exactly what happened and why.

But let's say the absolute worst is true. Why should that affect foreign policy 57 years later? We are strong allies with a number of former enemies.

---

When is Israel going to pay back the trillion dollars the American tax payer has given them? We sure could use the money with our historic debt-to-GDP.

Allies pay back their debts.

Enemies do not.

---

Israel just utterly destroyed two Iranian proxies which have killed thousands of Amcits and currently hold several hostage. That campaign also denied the Syrian regime of an ally it depended upon to defend the line of advance into Damascus, causing the fall of the Assad regime, an Iranian ally who has been on the State Sponsor of Terrorism...

---

Sure...100% correct

But don't act like they did it for America

Israel acts to the benefit of Israel only.....

---

Pre-1980 Iran was a very reliable proxy like Israel, too. A Shiite country surrounded by antagonistic Sunni countries, as well as a contiguous border with the USSR. Made them a very motivated ally. That is why Obama and Biden courted them so hard, foolishly hard. They wanted to flip them over to our side. And it was profoundly stupid, as the current regime is ideologically rooted in hatred of the West in general and USA in particular. As we have seen, no amount of inducements moved them an inch toward us and a lot more than that in the wrong direction.

.

---

I can certainly see why having Iran as pro-American ally would be very beneficial (big country, lots of oil, strategic location)

Still not sure what Israel it's us in the region that we already do not have.

But that is an interesting point about Obama-Biden still trying to pull Iran into the American orbit….though that seems like a lost cause given Irans current rulers

---

if you can't see what Israel has done for us in the last 12 months, I can't help you. Biggest bang for the buck, ever.

---

Interesting perspective.

Honestly think it's the other way around.

Without US financial support and military assets in the region……it's highly unlikely the rest of the Muslin world world have sat back while Israel invaded Gaza, Lebanon and Syria.

Killing thousands in the process.

---

......in the process killing millions of Jews and empowering Hizballah & Hamas which of course have killed thousands of Americans over the decades and still hold US hostages, leaving a pro-Russian/pro-Iranian regime in place to threaten a Nato ally (Turkey).

How exactly is that preferrable to US interests than what has happened?
-total destruction of Hamas
-near total destruction of Hizballah
-fall of a major terror-sponsor regime in Damascus
-total collapse of decades of Iranian policy aimed at undermining US power around the world
-effective collapse of decades of Palestinian destabilization of the region.

---

Preferable to US intersects is to let Israel fight their own wars and finance their own issues.
which is another way of saying "let the islamic world destroy Israel."
That is a policy option which has not one keystroke of benefit to the USA.
How many Israeli migrants would you be willing to host? All 10m of them?

70 years of US involvement is more than enough.
It's been highly effective, arguably more so dollar for dollar, than any other ally relationship.

Focus on the needs of Americans right here at home.

---

Israel is important to Americans here at home, a strong majority of which support the existence of the Jewish state.

---

70 years is enough period.

And you and I both know it's only gone on this long due to intense lobbying of our government officials.

---

For no more than we spend, we should do it forever. Biggest bang for the buck out of any ally.

And no, it is quite silly to suggest that our alliance with Israel is solely due to Jewish lobby money. The needs/benefits are quite obvious, no matter how hard you try not to see them.

Aid to Israel is less than 1% of the budget deficit, buddy...... And for that expense we got total destruction of Hamas & Hizballah, without a single drop of American soldier sweat.

I do believe you'd hack off your foot to save 50% on the cost trimming your toenails.

---

Stupid post.

We have spent billions of dollars on Israel annually for decades.

It's only done at this point due to millions of dollars given to our political operatives by Israeli lobbyists.


70 years worth…..take a moment and really let that sink in.


Time to focus on our own problems ; our own people.

---

We spend Trillions every year on our own people and our own problems. You feeling the impact? You think another couple Billion would help?

---

Yes....to the people who would be effected positively by that billion its very important

---

That's what every politician who has ever argued for an increase in entitlement spending, or new welfare program, or jobs bill has said. Then the reality of government mismanagement takes hold. It's truly remarkable you'd even make that argument.

ATL Bear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

The_barBEARian said:

---

sombear said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

Link to Interview

It is a given that most people haven't heard of the USS Liberty. It's something that is generally glossed over in history classes, if it is taught at all. Or at least it used to be that way.

The official explanation is it was a case of mistaken identity that led to the death of 34 American servicemen in an attack that lasted far longer - and with multiple waves - than a case of mistaken identity would allow for.

Friendly fire happens. Pat Tillman was the most recent well known case of this. The USS Liberty attack was absolutely not a case of friendly fire.

Go watch the video, and remember the casualties on that ship next time someone starts advocating for war in Ukraine, Syria, Iran, or elsewhere.

---

Most people haven't heard of it? It was covered in my rural Indiana high school and again in college.

It remains unclear exactly what happened and why.

But let's say the absolute worst is true. Why should that affect foreign policy 57 years later? We are strong allies with a number of former enemies.

---

When is Israel going to pay back the trillion dollars the American tax payer has given them? We sure could use the money with our historic debt-to-GDP.

Allies pay back their debts.

Enemies do not.

---

Israel just utterly destroyed two Iranian proxies which have killed thousands of Amcits and currently hold several hostage. That campaign also denied the Syrian regime of an ally it depended upon to defend the line of advance into Damascus, causing the fall of the Assad regime, an Iranian ally who has been on the State Sponsor of Terrorism...

---

Sure...100% correct

But don't act like they did it for America

Israel acts to the benefit of Israel only.....

---

Pre-1980 Iran was a very reliable proxy like Israel, too. A Shiite country surrounded by antagonistic Sunni countries, as well as a contiguous border with the USSR. Made them a very motivated ally. That is why Obama and Biden courted them so hard, foolishly hard. They wanted to flip them over to our side. And it was profoundly stupid, as the current regime is ideologically rooted in hatred of the West in general and USA in particular. As we have seen, no amount of inducements moved them an inch toward us and a lot more than that in the wrong direction.

.

---

I can certainly see why having Iran as pro-American ally would be very beneficial (big country, lots of oil, strategic location)

Still not sure what Israel it's us in the region that we already do not have.

But that is an interesting point about Obama-Biden still trying to pull Iran into the American orbit….though that seems like a lost cause given Irans current rulers

---

if you can't see what Israel has done for us in the last 12 months, I can't help you. Biggest bang for the buck, ever.

---

Interesting perspective.

Honestly think it's the other way around.

Without US financial support and military assets in the region……it's highly unlikely the rest of the Muslin world world have sat back while Israel invaded Gaza, Lebanon and Syria.

Killing thousands in the process.

---

......in the process killing millions of Jews and empowering Hizballah & Hamas which of course have killed thousands of Americans over the decades and still hold US hostages, leaving a pro-Russian/pro-Iranian regime in place to threaten a Nato ally (Turkey).

How exactly is that preferrable to US interests than what has happened?
-total destruction of Hamas
-near total destruction of Hizballah
-fall of a major terror-sponsor regime in Damascus
-total collapse of decades of Iranian policy aimed at undermining US power around the world
-effective collapse of decades of Palestinian destabilization of the region.

---

Preferable to US intersects is to let Israel fight their own wars and finance their own issues.
which is another way of saying "let the islamic world destroy Israel."
That is a policy option which has not one keystroke of benefit to the USA.
How many Israeli migrants would you be willing to host? All 10m of them?

70 years of US involvement is more than enough.
It's been highly effective, arguably more so dollar for dollar, than any other ally relationship.

Focus on the needs of Americans right here at home.

---

Israel is important to Americans here at home, a strong majority of which support the existence of the Jewish state.

---

70 years is enough period.

And you and I both know it's only gone on this long due to intense lobbying of our government officials.

---

For no more than we spend, we should do it forever. Biggest bang for the buck out of any ally.

And no, it is quite silly to suggest that our alliance with Israel is solely due to Jewish lobby money. The needs/benefits are quite obvious, no matter how hard you try not to see them.

Aid to Israel is less than 1% of the budget deficit, buddy...... And for that expense we got total destruction of Hamas & Hizballah, without a single drop of American soldier sweat.

I do believe you'd hack off your foot to save 50% on the cost trimming your toenails.

---

Stupid post.

We have spent billions of dollars on Israel annually for decades.

It's only done at this point due to millions of dollars given to our political operatives by Israeli lobbyists.


70 years worth…..take a moment and really let that sink in.


Time to focus on our own problems ; our own people.

---

We spend Trillions every year on our own people and our own problems. You feeling the impact? You think another couple Billion would help?

---

Yes....to the people who would be effected positively by that billion its very important

---

That's what every politician who has ever argued for an increase in entitlement spending, or new welfare program, or jobs bill has said. Then the reality of government mismanagement takes hold. It's truly remarkable you'd even make that argument.

---

Its far more remarkable that you are making the argument that a few billion dollars of tax payer money is no big deal. (when it is)

And that it should be handed off to foreigners in another country. (insulting)

Have you personally sent money to Israel? Try doing that first before you advocate sending billions of tax payer money to them

Redbrickbear said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

The_barBEARian said:

---

sombear said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

Link to Interview

It is a given that most people haven't heard of the USS Liberty. It's something that is generally glossed over in history classes, if it is taught at all. Or at least it used to be that way.

The official explanation is it was a case of mistaken identity that led to the death of 34 American servicemen in an attack that lasted far longer - and with multiple waves - than a case of mistaken identity would allow for.

Friendly fire happens. Pat Tillman was the most recent well known case of this. The USS Liberty attack was absolutely not a case of friendly fire.

Go watch the video, and remember the casualties on that ship next time someone starts advocating for war in Ukraine, Syria, Iran, or elsewhere.

---

Most people haven't heard of it? It was covered in my rural Indiana high school and again in college.

It remains unclear exactly what happened and why.

But let's say the absolute worst is true. Why should that affect foreign policy 57 years later? We are strong allies with a number of former enemies.

---

When is Israel going to pay back the trillion dollars the American tax payer has given them? We sure could use the money with our historic debt-to-GDP.

Allies pay back their debts.

Enemies do not.

---

Israel just utterly destroyed two Iranian proxies which have killed thousands of Amcits and currently hold several hostage. That campaign also denied the Syrian regime of an ally it depended upon to defend the line of advance into Damascus, causing the fall of the Assad regime, an Iranian ally who has been on the State Sponsor of Terrorism...

---

Sure...100% correct

But don't act like they did it for America

Israel acts to the benefit of Israel only.....

---

Pre-1980 Iran was a very reliable proxy like Israel, too. A Shiite country surrounded by antagonistic Sunni countries, as well as a contiguous border with the USSR. Made them a very motivated ally. That is why Obama and Biden courted them so hard, foolishly hard. They wanted to flip them over to our side. And it was profoundly stupid, as the current regime is ideologically rooted in hatred of the West in general and USA in particular. As we have seen, no amount of inducements moved them an inch toward us and a lot more than that in the wrong direction.

.

---

I can certainly see why having Iran as pro-American ally would be very beneficial (big country, lots of oil, strategic location)

Still not sure what Israel it's us in the region that we already do not have.

But that is an interesting point about Obama-Biden still trying to pull Iran into the American orbit….though that seems like a lost cause given Irans current rulers

---

if you can't see what Israel has done for us in the last 12 months, I can't help you. Biggest bang for the buck, ever.

---

Interesting perspective.

Honestly think it's the other way around.

Without US financial support and military assets in the region……it's highly unlikely the rest of the Muslin world world have sat back while Israel invaded Gaza, Lebanon and Syria.

Killing thousands in the process.

---

......in the process killing millions of Jews and empowering Hizballah & Hamas which of course have killed thousands of Americans over the decades and still hold US hostages, leaving a pro-Russian/pro-Iranian regime in place to threaten a Nato ally (Turkey).

How exactly is that preferrable to US interests than what has happened?
-total destruction of Hamas
-near total destruction of Hizballah
-fall of a major terror-sponsor regime in Damascus
-total collapse of decades of Iranian policy aimed at undermining US power around the world
-effective collapse of decades of Palestinian destabilization of the region.

---

Preferable to US intersects is to let Israel fight their own wars and finance their own issues.
which is another way of saying "let the islamic world destroy Israel."
That is a policy option which has not one keystroke of benefit to the USA.
How many Israeli migrants would you be willing to host? All 10m of them?

70 years of US involvement is more than enough.
It's been highly effective, arguably more so dollar for dollar, than any other ally relationship.

Focus on the needs of Americans right here at home.

---

Israel is important to Americans here at home, a strong majority of which support the existence of the Jewish state.

---

70 years is enough period.

And you and I both know it's only gone on this long due to intense lobbying of our government officials.

---

For no more than we spend, we should do it forever. Biggest bang for the buck out of any ally.

And no, it is quite silly to suggest that our alliance with Israel is solely due to Jewish lobby money. The needs/benefits are quite obvious, no matter how hard you try not to see them.

Aid to Israel is less than 1% of the budget deficit, buddy...... And for that expense we got total destruction of Hamas & Hizballah, without a single drop of American soldier sweat.

I do believe you'd hack off your foot to save 50% on the cost trimming your toenails.

---

Stupid post.

We have spent billions of dollars on Israel annually for decades.

It's only done at this point due to millions of dollars given to our political operatives by Israeli lobbyists.


70 years worth…..take a moment and really let that sink in.


Time to focus on our own problems ; our own people.

---

We spend Trillions every year on our own people and our own problems. You feeling the impact? You think another couple Billion would help?

---

Yes....to the people who would be effected positively by that billion its very important

---

That's what every politician who has ever argued for an increase in entitlement spending, or new welfare program, or jobs bill has said. Then the reality of government mismanagement takes hold. It's truly remarkable you'd even make that argument.

---

Its far more remarkable that you are making the argument that a few billion dollars of tax payer money is no big deal. (when it is)

And that it should be handed off to foreigners in another country. (insulting)

Have you personally sent money to Israel? Try doing that first before you advocate sending billions of tax payer money to them

---

I'm willing to pay for the defense of this country and have the understanding that jobs are actually created within the military and supporting industries, all be it hamstrung with similar inefficiencies. Not to mention it's an actual constitutionally enumerated power of our government.

And what is this stupid question of "personally" giving? Have you personally paid more for Chinese goods? Try doing that before demanding others pay more for them. See how illogical that sounds?

ATL Bear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

The_barBEARian said:

---

sombear said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

Link to Interview

It is a given that most people haven't heard of the USS Liberty. It's something that is generally glossed over in history classes, if it is taught at all. Or at least it used to be that way.

The official explanation is it was a case of mistaken identity that led to the death of 34 American servicemen in an attack that lasted far longer - and with multiple waves - than a case of mistaken identity would allow for.

Friendly fire happens. Pat Tillman was the most recent well known case of this. The USS Liberty attack was absolutely not a case of friendly fire.

Go watch the video, and remember the casualties on that ship next time someone starts advocating for war in Ukraine, Syria, Iran, or elsewhere.

---

Most people haven't heard of it? It was covered in my rural Indiana high school and again in college.

It remains unclear exactly what happened and why.

But let's say the absolute worst is true. Why should that affect foreign policy 57 years later? We are strong allies with a number of former enemies.

---

When is Israel going to pay back the trillion dollars the American tax payer has given them? We sure could use the money with our historic debt-to-GDP.

Allies pay back their debts.

Enemies do not.

---

Israel just utterly destroyed two Iranian proxies which have killed thousands of Amcits and currently hold several hostage. That campaign also denied the Syrian regime of an ally it depended upon to defend the line of advance into Damascus, causing the fall of the Assad regime, an Iranian ally who has been on the State Sponsor of Terrorism...

---

Sure...100% correct

But don't act like they did it for America

Israel acts to the benefit of Israel only.....

---

Pre-1980 Iran was a very reliable proxy like Israel, too. A Shiite country surrounded by antagonistic Sunni countries, as well as a contiguous border with the USSR. Made them a very motivated ally. That is why Obama and Biden courted them so hard, foolishly hard. They wanted to flip them over to our side. And it was profoundly stupid, as the current regime is ideologically rooted in hatred of the West in general and USA in particular. As we have seen, no amount of inducements moved them an inch toward us and a lot more than that in the wrong direction.

.

---

I can certainly see why having Iran as pro-American ally would be very beneficial (big country, lots of oil, strategic location)

Still not sure what Israel it's us in the region that we already do not have.

But that is an interesting point about Obama-Biden still trying to pull Iran into the American orbit….though that seems like a lost cause given Irans current rulers

---

if you can't see what Israel has done for us in the last 12 months, I can't help you. Biggest bang for the buck, ever.

---

Interesting perspective.

Honestly think it's the other way around.

Without US financial support and military assets in the region……it's highly unlikely the rest of the Muslin world world have sat back while Israel invaded Gaza, Lebanon and Syria.

Killing thousands in the process.

---

......in the process killing millions of Jews and empowering Hizballah & Hamas which of course have killed thousands of Americans over the decades and still hold US hostages, leaving a pro-Russian/pro-Iranian regime in place to threaten a Nato ally (Turkey).

How exactly is that preferrable to US interests than what has happened?
-total destruction of Hamas
-near total destruction of Hizballah
-fall of a major terror-sponsor regime in Damascus
-total collapse of decades of Iranian policy aimed at undermining US power around the world
-effective collapse of decades of Palestinian destabilization of the region.

---

Preferable to US intersects is to let Israel fight their own wars and finance their own issues.
which is another way of saying "let the islamic world destroy Israel."
That is a policy option which has not one keystroke of benefit to the USA.
How many Israeli migrants would you be willing to host? All 10m of them?

70 years of US involvement is more than enough.
It's been highly effective, arguably more so dollar for dollar, than any other ally relationship.

Focus on the needs of Americans right here at home.

---

Israel is important to Americans here at home, a strong majority of which support the existence of the Jewish state.

---

70 years is enough period.

And you and I both know it's only gone on this long due to intense lobbying of our government officials.

---

For no more than we spend, we should do it forever. Biggest bang for the buck out of any ally.

And no, it is quite silly to suggest that our alliance with Israel is solely due to Jewish lobby money. The needs/benefits are quite obvious, no matter how hard you try not to see them.

Aid to Israel is less than 1% of the budget deficit, buddy...... And for that expense we got total destruction of Hamas & Hizballah, without a single drop of American soldier sweat.

I do believe you'd hack off your foot to save 50% on the cost trimming your toenails.

---

Stupid post.

We have spent billions of dollars on Israel annually for decades.

It's only done at this point due to millions of dollars given to our political operatives by Israeli lobbyists.


70 years worth…..take a moment and really let that sink in.


Time to focus on our own problems ; our own people.

---

We spend Trillions every year on our own people and our own problems. You feeling the impact? You think another couple Billion would help?

---

Yes....to the people who would be effected positively by that billion its very important

---

That's what every politician who has ever argued for an increase in entitlement spending, or new welfare program, or jobs bill has said. Then the reality of government mismanagement takes hold. It's truly remarkable you'd even make that argument.

---

Its far more remarkable that you are making the argument that a few billion dollars of tax payer money is no big deal. (when it is)

And that it should be handed off to foreigners in another country. (insulting)

Have you personally sent money to Israel? Try doing that first before you advocate sending billions of tax payer money to them

---

I'm willing to pay for the defense of this country and have the understanding that jobs are actually created within the military and supporting industries, all be it hamstrung with similar inefficiencies.

---

You pretend to be a fiscal hawk.....but now you are ok with large amounts of government defense spending?

Fair enough....but your concerns about government spending seem hypocritical

(not to mention you can spend money on US defense without giving money to Israel....that is a logical fallacy)

Redbrickbear said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

The_barBEARian said:

---

sombear said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

Link to Interview

It is a given that most people haven't heard of the USS Liberty. It's something that is generally glossed over in history classes, if it is taught at all. Or at least it used to be that way.

The official explanation is it was a case of mistaken identity that led to the death of 34 American servicemen in an attack that lasted far longer - and with multiple waves - than a case of mistaken identity would allow for.

Friendly fire happens. Pat Tillman was the most recent well known case of this. The USS Liberty attack was absolutely not a case of friendly fire.

Go watch the video, and remember the casualties on that ship next time someone starts advocating for war in Ukraine, Syria, Iran, or elsewhere.

---

Most people haven't heard of it? It was covered in my rural Indiana high school and again in college.

It remains unclear exactly what happened and why.

But let's say the absolute worst is true. Why should that affect foreign policy 57 years later? We are strong allies with a number of former enemies.

---

When is Israel going to pay back the trillion dollars the American tax payer has given them? We sure could use the money with our historic debt-to-GDP.

Allies pay back their debts.

Enemies do not.

---

Israel just utterly destroyed two Iranian proxies which have killed thousands of Amcits and currently hold several hostage. That campaign also denied the Syrian regime of an ally it depended upon to defend the line of advance into Damascus, causing the fall of the Assad regime, an Iranian ally who has been on the State Sponsor of Terrorism...

---

Sure...100% correct

But don't act like they did it for America

Israel acts to the benefit of Israel only.....

---

Pre-1980 Iran was a very reliable proxy like Israel, too. A Shiite country surrounded by antagonistic Sunni countries, as well as a contiguous border with the USSR. Made them a very motivated ally. That is why Obama and Biden courted them so hard, foolishly hard. They wanted to flip them over to our side. And it was profoundly stupid, as the current regime is ideologically rooted in hatred of the West in general and USA in particular. As we have seen, no amount of inducements moved them an inch toward us and a lot more than that in the wrong direction.

.

---

I can certainly see why having Iran as pro-American ally would be very beneficial (big country, lots of oil, strategic location)

Still not sure what Israel it's us in the region that we already do not have.

But that is an interesting point about Obama-Biden still trying to pull Iran into the American orbit….though that seems like a lost cause given Irans current rulers

---

if you can't see what Israel has done for us in the last 12 months, I can't help you. Biggest bang for the buck, ever.

---

Interesting perspective.

Honestly think it's the other way around.

Without US financial support and military assets in the region……it's highly unlikely the rest of the Muslin world world have sat back while Israel invaded Gaza, Lebanon and Syria.

Killing thousands in the process.

---

......in the process killing millions of Jews and empowering Hizballah & Hamas which of course have killed thousands of Americans over the decades and still hold US hostages, leaving a pro-Russian/pro-Iranian regime in place to threaten a Nato ally (Turkey).

How exactly is that preferrable to US interests than what has happened?
-total destruction of Hamas
-near total destruction of Hizballah
-fall of a major terror-sponsor regime in Damascus
-total collapse of decades of Iranian policy aimed at undermining US power around the world
-effective collapse of decades of Palestinian destabilization of the region.

---

Preferable to US intersects is to let Israel fight their own wars and finance their own issues.
which is another way of saying "let the islamic world destroy Israel."
That is a policy option which has not one keystroke of benefit to the USA.
How many Israeli migrants would you be willing to host? All 10m of them?

70 years of US involvement is more than enough.
It's been highly effective, arguably more so dollar for dollar, than any other ally relationship.

Focus on the needs of Americans right here at home.

---

Israel is important to Americans here at home, a strong majority of which support the existence of the Jewish state.

---

70 years is enough period.

And you and I both know it's only gone on this long due to intense lobbying of our government officials.

---

For no more than we spend, we should do it forever. Biggest bang for the buck out of any ally.

And no, it is quite silly to suggest that our alliance with Israel is solely due to Jewish lobby money. The needs/benefits are quite obvious, no matter how hard you try not to see them.

Aid to Israel is less than 1% of the budget deficit, buddy...... And for that expense we got total destruction of Hamas & Hizballah, without a single drop of American soldier sweat.

I do believe you'd hack off your foot to save 50% on the cost trimming your toenails.

---

Stupid post.

We have spent billions of dollars on Israel annually for decades.

It's only done at this point due to millions of dollars given to our political operatives by Israeli lobbyists.


70 years worth…..take a moment and really let that sink in.


Time to focus on our own problems ; our own people.

---

We spend Trillions every year on our own people and our own problems. You feeling the impact? You think another couple Billion would help?

---

Yes....to the people who would be effected positively by that billion its very important

---

That's what every politician who has ever argued for an increase in entitlement spending, or new welfare program, or jobs bill has said. Then the reality of government mismanagement takes hold. It's truly remarkable you'd even make that argument.

---

Its far more remarkable that you are making the argument that a few billion dollars of tax payer money is no big deal. (when it is)

And that it should be handed off to foreigners in another country. (insulting)

Have you personally sent money to Israel? Try doing that first before you advocate sending billions of tax payer money to them

---

I'm willing to pay for the defense of this country and have the understanding that jobs are actually created within the military and supporting industries, all be it hamstrung with similar inefficiencies.

---

You pretend to be a fiscal hawk.....but now you are ok with large amounts of government defense spending?

Fair enough....so your concerns about government spending are very hypocritical

(not to mention you can spend money on US defense without giving money to Israel....that is a logical fallacy)

---

I literally said in the post you responded to, if you want to save the money, that's a legitimate argument. You just failed to either read or include that in your reply. I'm fine with cutting. Not this emotional appeal argument over "why are we spending in Israel and not Americans?". At least with the money to Israel I can draw some level of ROI and defined objective.

And most of the aid to Israel is loan assistance for defense purchases. That's not logical fallacy, that's reality.

ATL Bear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

The_barBEARian said:

---

sombear said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

Link to Interview

It is a given that most people haven't heard of the USS Liberty. It's something that is generally glossed over in history classes, if it is taught at all. Or at least it used to be that way.

The official explanation is it was a case of mistaken identity that led to the death of 34 American servicemen in an attack that lasted far longer - and with multiple waves - than a case of mistaken identity would allow for.

Friendly fire happens. Pat Tillman was the most recent well known case of this. The USS Liberty attack was absolutely not a case of friendly fire.

Go watch the video, and remember the casualties on that ship next time someone starts advocating for war in Ukraine, Syria, Iran, or elsewhere.

---

Most people haven't heard of it? It was covered in my rural Indiana high school and again in college.

It remains unclear exactly what happened and why.

But let's say the absolute worst is true. Why should that affect foreign policy 57 years later? We are strong allies with a number of former enemies.

---

When is Israel going to pay back the trillion dollars the American tax payer has given them? We sure could use the money with our historic debt-to-GDP.

Allies pay back their debts.

Enemies do not.

---

Israel just utterly destroyed two Iranian proxies which have killed thousands of Amcits and currently hold several hostage. That campaign also denied the Syrian regime of an ally it depended upon to defend the line of advance into Damascus, causing the fall of the Assad regime, an Iranian ally who has been on the State Sponsor of Terrorism...

---

Sure...100% correct

But don't act like they did it for America

Israel acts to the benefit of Israel only.....

---

Pre-1980 Iran was a very reliable proxy like Israel, too. A Shiite country surrounded by antagonistic Sunni countries, as well as a contiguous border with the USSR. Made them a very motivated ally. That is why Obama and Biden courted them so hard, foolishly hard. They wanted to flip them over to our side. And it was profoundly stupid, as the current regime is ideologically rooted in hatred of the West in general and USA in particular. As we have seen, no amount of inducements moved them an inch toward us and a lot more than that in the wrong direction.

.

---

I can certainly see why having Iran as pro-American ally would be very beneficial (big country, lots of oil, strategic location)

Still not sure what Israel it's us in the region that we already do not have.

But that is an interesting point about Obama-Biden still trying to pull Iran into the American orbit….though that seems like a lost cause given Irans current rulers

---

if you can't see what Israel has done for us in the last 12 months, I can't help you. Biggest bang for the buck, ever.

---

Interesting perspective.

Honestly think it's the other way around.

Without US financial support and military assets in the region……it's highly unlikely the rest of the Muslin world world have sat back while Israel invaded Gaza, Lebanon and Syria.

Killing thousands in the process.

---

......in the process killing millions of Jews and empowering Hizballah & Hamas which of course have killed thousands of Americans over the decades and still hold US hostages, leaving a pro-Russian/pro-Iranian regime in place to threaten a Nato ally (Turkey).

How exactly is that preferrable to US interests than what has happened?
-total destruction of Hamas
-near total destruction of Hizballah
-fall of a major terror-sponsor regime in Damascus
-total collapse of decades of Iranian policy aimed at undermining US power around the world
-effective collapse of decades of Palestinian destabilization of the region.

---

Preferable to US intersects is to let Israel fight their own wars and finance their own issues.
which is another way of saying "let the islamic world destroy Israel."
That is a policy option which has not one keystroke of benefit to the USA.
How many Israeli migrants would you be willing to host? All 10m of them?

70 years of US involvement is more than enough.
It's been highly effective, arguably more so dollar for dollar, than any other ally relationship.

Focus on the needs of Americans right here at home.

---

Israel is important to Americans here at home, a strong majority of which support the existence of the Jewish state.

---

70 years is enough period.

And you and I both know it's only gone on this long due to intense lobbying of our government officials.

---

For no more than we spend, we should do it forever. Biggest bang for the buck out of any ally.

And no, it is quite silly to suggest that our alliance with Israel is solely due to Jewish lobby money. The needs/benefits are quite obvious, no matter how hard you try not to see them.

Aid to Israel is less than 1% of the budget deficit, buddy...... And for that expense we got total destruction of Hamas & Hizballah, without a single drop of American soldier sweat.

I do believe you'd hack off your foot to save 50% on the cost trimming your toenails.

---

Stupid post.

We have spent billions of dollars on Israel annually for decades.

It's only done at this point due to millions of dollars given to our political operatives by Israeli lobbyists.


70 years worth…..take a moment and really let that sink in.


Time to focus on our own problems ; our own people.

---

We spend Trillions every year on our own people and our own problems. You feeling the impact? You think another couple Billion would help?

---

Yes....to the people who would be effected positively by that billion its very important

---

That's what every politician who has ever argued for an increase in entitlement spending, or new welfare program, or jobs bill has said. Then the reality of government mismanagement takes hold. It's truly remarkable you'd even make that argument.

---

Its far more remarkable that you are making the argument that a few billion dollars of tax payer money is no big deal. (when it is)

And that it should be handed off to foreigners in another country. (insulting)

Have you personally sent money to Israel? Try doing that first before you advocate sending billions of tax payer money to them

---

I'm willing to pay for the defense of this country and have the understanding that jobs are actually created within the military and supporting industries, all be it hamstrung with similar inefficiencies.

---

You pretend to be a fiscal hawk.....but now you are ok with large amounts of government defense spending?

Fair enough....so your concerns about government spending are very hypocritical

(not to mention you can spend money on US defense without giving money to Israel....that is a logical fallacy)

---

I literally said in the post you responded to, if you want to save the money, that's a legitimate argument. You just failed to either read or include that in your reply. I'm fine with cutting. Not this emotional appeal argument over "why are we spending in Israel and not Americans?".

---

Its more a rational political question...its interesting you think the question of why should American politicians spend money on Americans vs on foreigners is a "emotional question"

Its very reasonable to ask why its being done....what benefits it has for the American people....and given our debts levels if its unstainable (even if you think a few billion is no big deal)

In fact I suspect your attachment to sending billions in tax payer money to Israel is based more on emotion than it is on rational cost vs benefit analysis....or any concerns for actual American defense

Redbrickbear said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

The_barBEARian said:

---

sombear said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

Link to Interview

It is a given that most people haven't heard of the USS Liberty. It's something that is generally glossed over in history classes, if it is taught at all. Or at least it used to be that way.

The official explanation is it was a case of mistaken identity that led to the death of 34 American servicemen in an attack that lasted far longer - and with multiple waves - than a case of mistaken identity would allow for.

Friendly fire happens. Pat Tillman was the most recent well known case of this. The USS Liberty attack was absolutely not a case of friendly fire.

Go watch the video, and remember the casualties on that ship next time someone starts advocating for war in Ukraine, Syria, Iran, or elsewhere.

---

Most people haven't heard of it? It was covered in my rural Indiana high school and again in college.

It remains unclear exactly what happened and why.

But let's say the absolute worst is true. Why should that affect foreign policy 57 years later? We are strong allies with a number of former enemies.

---

When is Israel going to pay back the trillion dollars the American tax payer has given them? We sure could use the money with our historic debt-to-GDP.

Allies pay back their debts.

Enemies do not.

---

Israel just utterly destroyed two Iranian proxies which have killed thousands of Amcits and currently hold several hostage. That campaign also denied the Syrian regime of an ally it depended upon to defend the line of advance into Damascus, causing the fall of the Assad regime, an Iranian ally who has been on the State Sponsor of Terrorism...

---

Sure...100% correct

But don't act like they did it for America

Israel acts to the benefit of Israel only.....

---

Pre-1980 Iran was a very reliable proxy like Israel, too. A Shiite country surrounded by antagonistic Sunni countries, as well as a contiguous border with the USSR. Made them a very motivated ally. That is why Obama and Biden courted them so hard, foolishly hard. They wanted to flip them over to our side. And it was profoundly stupid, as the current regime is ideologically rooted in hatred of the West in general and USA in particular. As we have seen, no amount of inducements moved them an inch toward us and a lot more than that in the wrong direction.

.

---

I can certainly see why having Iran as pro-American ally would be very beneficial (big country, lots of oil, strategic location)

Still not sure what Israel it's us in the region that we already do not have.

But that is an interesting point about Obama-Biden still trying to pull Iran into the American orbit….though that seems like a lost cause given Irans current rulers

---

if you can't see what Israel has done for us in the last 12 months, I can't help you. Biggest bang for the buck, ever.

---

Interesting perspective.

Honestly think it's the other way around.

Without US financial support and military assets in the region……it's highly unlikely the rest of the Muslin world world have sat back while Israel invaded Gaza, Lebanon and Syria.

Killing thousands in the process.

---

......in the process killing millions of Jews and empowering Hizballah & Hamas which of course have killed thousands of Americans over the decades and still hold US hostages, leaving a pro-Russian/pro-Iranian regime in place to threaten a Nato ally (Turkey).

How exactly is that preferrable to US interests than what has happened?
-total destruction of Hamas
-near total destruction of Hizballah
-fall of a major terror-sponsor regime in Damascus
-total collapse of decades of Iranian policy aimed at undermining US power around the world
-effective collapse of decades of Palestinian destabilization of the region.

---

Preferable to US intersects is to let Israel fight their own wars and finance their own issues.
which is another way of saying "let the islamic world destroy Israel."
That is a policy option which has not one keystroke of benefit to the USA.
How many Israeli migrants would you be willing to host? All 10m of them?

70 years of US involvement is more than enough.
It's been highly effective, arguably more so dollar for dollar, than any other ally relationship.

Focus on the needs of Americans right here at home.

---

Israel is important to Americans here at home, a strong majority of which support the existence of the Jewish state.

---

70 years is enough period.

And you and I both know it's only gone on this long due to intense lobbying of our government officials.

---

For no more than we spend, we should do it forever. Biggest bang for the buck out of any ally.

And no, it is quite silly to suggest that our alliance with Israel is solely due to Jewish lobby money. The needs/benefits are quite obvious, no matter how hard you try not to see them.

Aid to Israel is less than 1% of the budget deficit, buddy...... And for that expense we got total destruction of Hamas & Hizballah, without a single drop of American soldier sweat.

I do believe you'd hack off your foot to save 50% on the cost trimming your toenails.

---

Stupid post.

We have spent billions of dollars on Israel annually for decades.

It's only done at this point due to millions of dollars given to our political operatives by Israeli lobbyists.


70 years worth…..take a moment and really let that sink in.


Time to focus on our own problems ; our own people.

---

We spend Trillions every year on our own people and our own problems. You feeling the impact? You think another couple Billion would help?

---

Yes....to the people who would be effected positively by that billion its very important

---

That's what every politician who has ever argued for an increase in entitlement spending, or new welfare program, or jobs bill has said. Then the reality of government mismanagement takes hold. It's truly remarkable you'd even make that argument.

---

Its far more remarkable that you are making the argument that a few billion dollars of tax payer money is no big deal. (when it is)

And that it should be handed off to foreigners in another country. (insulting)

Have you personally sent money to Israel? Try doing that first before you advocate sending billions of tax payer money to them

---

I'm willing to pay for the defense of this country and have the understanding that jobs are actually created within the military and supporting industries, all be it hamstrung with similar inefficiencies.

---

You pretend to be a fiscal hawk.....but now you are ok with large amounts of government defense spending?

Fair enough....so your concerns about government spending are very hypocritical

(not to mention you can spend money on US defense without giving money to Israel....that is a logical fallacy)

---

I literally said in the post you responded to, if you want to save the money, that's a legitimate argument. You just failed to either read or include that in your reply. I'm fine with cutting. Not this emotional appeal argument over "why are we spending in Israel and not Americans?".

---

Its more a rational political question...its interesting you think the question of why should American politicians spend money on Americans vs on foreigners is a "emotional question"

Its very reasonable to ask why its being done....what benefits it has for the American people....and given our debts levels if its unstainable (even if you think a few billion is no big deal)

In fact I suspect your attachment to sending billions in tax payer money to Israel is based more on emotion than it is on rational cost vs benefit analysis....or any concerns for actual American defense

---

Suspect all you want and twist what I said all you want. Reality is we aren't arguing about aid to South Korea or Egypt, it's Israel, as it always seems to be. That's not by coincidence.

ATL Bear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

The_barBEARian said:

---

sombear said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

Link to Interview

It is a given that most people haven't heard of the USS Liberty. It's something that is generally glossed over in history classes, if it is taught at all. Or at least it used to be that way.

The official explanation is it was a case of mistaken identity that led to the death of 34 American servicemen in an attack that lasted far longer - and with multiple waves - than a case of mistaken identity would allow for.

Friendly fire happens. Pat Tillman was the most recent well known case of this. The USS Liberty attack was absolutely not a case of friendly fire.

Go watch the video, and remember the casualties on that ship next time someone starts advocating for war in Ukraine, Syria, Iran, or elsewhere.

---

Most people haven't heard of it? It was covered in my rural Indiana high school and again in college.

It remains unclear exactly what happened and why.

But let's say the absolute worst is true. Why should that affect foreign policy 57 years later? We are strong allies with a number of former enemies.

---

When is Israel going to pay back the trillion dollars the American tax payer has given them? We sure could use the money with our historic debt-to-GDP.

Allies pay back their debts.

Enemies do not.

---

Israel just utterly destroyed two Iranian proxies which have killed thousands of Amcits and currently hold several hostage. That campaign also denied the Syrian regime of an ally it depended upon to defend the line of advance into Damascus, causing the fall of the Assad regime, an Iranian ally who has been on the State Sponsor of Terrorism...

---

Sure...100% correct

But don't act like they did it for America

Israel acts to the benefit of Israel only.....

---

Pre-1980 Iran was a very reliable proxy like Israel, too. A Shiite country surrounded by antagonistic Sunni countries, as well as a contiguous border with the USSR. Made them a very motivated ally. That is why Obama and Biden courted them so hard, foolishly hard. They wanted to flip them over to our side. And it was profoundly stupid, as the current regime is ideologically rooted in hatred of the West in general and USA in particular. As we have seen, no amount of inducements moved them an inch toward us and a lot more than that in the wrong direction.

.

---

I can certainly see why having Iran as pro-American ally would be very beneficial (big country, lots of oil, strategic location)

Still not sure what Israel it's us in the region that we already do not have.

But that is an interesting point about Obama-Biden still trying to pull Iran into the American orbit….though that seems like a lost cause given Irans current rulers

---

if you can't see what Israel has done for us in the last 12 months, I can't help you. Biggest bang for the buck, ever.

---

Interesting perspective.

Honestly think it's the other way around.

Without US financial support and military assets in the region……it's highly unlikely the rest of the Muslin world world have sat back while Israel invaded Gaza, Lebanon and Syria.

Killing thousands in the process.

---

......in the process killing millions of Jews and empowering Hizballah & Hamas which of course have killed thousands of Americans over the decades and still hold US hostages, leaving a pro-Russian/pro-Iranian regime in place to threaten a Nato ally (Turkey).

How exactly is that preferrable to US interests than what has happened?
-total destruction of Hamas
-near total destruction of Hizballah
-fall of a major terror-sponsor regime in Damascus
-total collapse of decades of Iranian policy aimed at undermining US power around the world
-effective collapse of decades of Palestinian destabilization of the region.

---

Preferable to US intersects is to let Israel fight their own wars and finance their own issues.
which is another way of saying "let the islamic world destroy Israel."
That is a policy option which has not one keystroke of benefit to the USA.
How many Israeli migrants would you be willing to host? All 10m of them?

70 years of US involvement is more than enough.
It's been highly effective, arguably more so dollar for dollar, than any other ally relationship.

Focus on the needs of Americans right here at home.

---

Israel is important to Americans here at home, a strong majority of which support the existence of the Jewish state.

---

70 years is enough period.

And you and I both know it's only gone on this long due to intense lobbying of our government officials.

---

For no more than we spend, we should do it forever. Biggest bang for the buck out of any ally.

And no, it is quite silly to suggest that our alliance with Israel is solely due to Jewish lobby money. The needs/benefits are quite obvious, no matter how hard you try not to see them.

Aid to Israel is less than 1% of the budget deficit, buddy...... And for that expense we got total destruction of Hamas & Hizballah, without a single drop of American soldier sweat.

I do believe you'd hack off your foot to save 50% on the cost trimming your toenails.

---

Stupid post.

We have spent billions of dollars on Israel annually for decades.

It's only done at this point due to millions of dollars given to our political operatives by Israeli lobbyists.


70 years worth…..take a moment and really let that sink in.


Time to focus on our own problems ; our own people.

---

We spend Trillions every year on our own people and our own problems. You feeling the impact? You think another couple Billion would help?

---

Yes....to the people who would be effected positively by that billion its very important

---

That's what every politician who has ever argued for an increase in entitlement spending, or new welfare program, or jobs bill has said. Then the reality of government mismanagement takes hold. It's truly remarkable you'd even make that argument.

---

Its far more remarkable that you are making the argument that a few billion dollars of tax payer money is no big deal. (when it is)

And that it should be handed off to foreigners in another country. (insulting)

Have you personally sent money to Israel? Try doing that first before you advocate sending billions of tax payer money to them

---

I'm willing to pay for the defense of this country and have the understanding that jobs are actually created within the military and supporting industries, all be it hamstrung with similar inefficiencies.

---

You pretend to be a fiscal hawk.....but now you are ok with large amounts of government defense spending?

Fair enough....so your concerns about government spending are very hypocritical

(not to mention you can spend money on US defense without giving money to Israel....that is a logical fallacy)

---

I literally said in the post you responded to, if you want to save the money, that's a legitimate argument. You just failed to either read or include that in your reply. I'm fine with cutting. Not this emotional appeal argument over "why are we spending in Israel and not Americans?".

---

Its more a rational political question...its interesting you think the question of why should American politicians spend money on Americans vs on foreigners is a "emotional question"

Its very reasonable to ask why its being done....what benefits it has for the American people....and given our debts levels if its unstainable (even if you think a few billion is no big deal)

In fact I suspect your attachment to sending billions in tax payer money to Israel is based more on emotion than it is on rational cost vs benefit analysis....or any concerns for actual American defense

---

Suspect all you want and twist what I said all you want. Reality is we aren't arguing about aid to South Korea or Egypt, it's Israel, as it always seems to be. That's not by coincidence.

---

I am happy to have those arguments and talk about which relationships are really necessary for our real security needs

(Speaking of Egypt you do realize a big reason we give them billions of dollars is so they keep the peace with Israel right?)

Redbrickbear said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

The_barBEARian said:

---

sombear said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

Link to Interview

It is a given that most people haven't heard of the USS Liberty. It's something that is generally glossed over in history classes, if it is taught at all. Or at least it used to be that way.

The official explanation is it was a case of mistaken identity that led to the death of 34 American servicemen in an attack that lasted far longer - and with multiple waves - than a case of mistaken identity would allow for.

Friendly fire happens. Pat Tillman was the most recent well known case of this. The USS Liberty attack was absolutely not a case of friendly fire.

Go watch the video, and remember the casualties on that ship next time someone starts advocating for war in Ukraine, Syria, Iran, or elsewhere.

---

Most people haven't heard of it? It was covered in my rural Indiana high school and again in college.

It remains unclear exactly what happened and why.

But let's say the absolute worst is true. Why should that affect foreign policy 57 years later? We are strong allies with a number of former enemies.

---

When is Israel going to pay back the trillion dollars the American tax payer has given them? We sure could use the money with our historic debt-to-GDP.

Allies pay back their debts.

Enemies do not.

---

Israel just utterly destroyed two Iranian proxies which have killed thousands of Amcits and currently hold several hostage. That campaign also denied the Syrian regime of an ally it depended upon to defend the line of advance into Damascus, causing the fall of the Assad regime, an Iranian ally who has been on the State Sponsor of Terrorism...

---

Sure...100% correct

But don't act like they did it for America

Israel acts to the benefit of Israel only.....

---

Pre-1980 Iran was a very reliable proxy like Israel, too. A Shiite country surrounded by antagonistic Sunni countries, as well as a contiguous border with the USSR. Made them a very motivated ally. That is why Obama and Biden courted them so hard, foolishly hard. They wanted to flip them over to our side. And it was profoundly stupid, as the current regime is ideologically rooted in hatred of the West in general and USA in particular. As we have seen, no amount of inducements moved them an inch toward us and a lot more than that in the wrong direction.

.

---

I can certainly see why having Iran as pro-American ally would be very beneficial (big country, lots of oil, strategic location)

Still not sure what Israel it's us in the region that we already do not have.

But that is an interesting point about Obama-Biden still trying to pull Iran into the American orbit….though that seems like a lost cause given Irans current rulers

---

if you can't see what Israel has done for us in the last 12 months, I can't help you. Biggest bang for the buck, ever.

---

Interesting perspective.

Honestly think it's the other way around.

Without US financial support and military assets in the region……it's highly unlikely the rest of the Muslin world world have sat back while Israel invaded Gaza, Lebanon and Syria.

Killing thousands in the process.

---

......in the process killing millions of Jews and empowering Hizballah & Hamas which of course have killed thousands of Americans over the decades and still hold US hostages, leaving a pro-Russian/pro-Iranian regime in place to threaten a Nato ally (Turkey).

How exactly is that preferrable to US interests than what has happened?
-total destruction of Hamas
-near total destruction of Hizballah
-fall of a major terror-sponsor regime in Damascus
-total collapse of decades of Iranian policy aimed at undermining US power around the world
-effective collapse of decades of Palestinian destabilization of the region.

---

Preferable to US intersects is to let Israel fight their own wars and finance their own issues.
which is another way of saying "let the islamic world destroy Israel."
That is a policy option which has not one keystroke of benefit to the USA.
How many Israeli migrants would you be willing to host? All 10m of them?

70 years of US involvement is more than enough.
It's been highly effective, arguably more so dollar for dollar, than any other ally relationship.

Focus on the needs of Americans right here at home.

---

Israel is important to Americans here at home, a strong majority of which support the existence of the Jewish state.

---

70 years is enough period.

And you and I both know it's only gone on this long due to intense lobbying of our government officials.

---

For no more than we spend, we should do it forever. Biggest bang for the buck out of any ally.

And no, it is quite silly to suggest that our alliance with Israel is solely due to Jewish lobby money. The needs/benefits are quite obvious, no matter how hard you try not to see them.

Aid to Israel is less than 1% of the budget deficit, buddy...... And for that expense we got total destruction of Hamas & Hizballah, without a single drop of American soldier sweat.

I do believe you'd hack off your foot to save 50% on the cost trimming your toenails.

---

Stupid post.

We have spent billions of dollars on Israel annually for decades.

It's only done at this point due to millions of dollars given to our political operatives by Israeli lobbyists.


70 years worth…..take a moment and really let that sink in.


Time to focus on our own problems ; our own people.

---

We spend Trillions every year on our own people and our own problems. You feeling the impact? You think another couple Billion would help?

---

Yes....to the people who would be effected positively by that billion its very important

---

That's what every politician who has ever argued for an increase in entitlement spending, or new welfare program, or jobs bill has said. Then the reality of government mismanagement takes hold. It's truly remarkable you'd even make that argument.

---

Its far more remarkable that you are making the argument that a few billion dollars of tax payer money is no big deal. (when it is)

And that it should be handed off to foreigners in another country. (insulting)

Have you personally sent money to Israel? Try doing that first before you advocate sending billions of tax payer money to them

---

I'm willing to pay for the defense of this country and have the understanding that jobs are actually created within the military and supporting industries, all be it hamstrung with similar inefficiencies.

---

You pretend to be a fiscal hawk.....but now you are ok with large amounts of government defense spending?

Fair enough....so your concerns about government spending are very hypocritical

(not to mention you can spend money on US defense without giving money to Israel....that is a logical fallacy)

---

I literally said in the post you responded to, if you want to save the money, that's a legitimate argument. You just failed to either read or include that in your reply. I'm fine with cutting. Not this emotional appeal argument over "why are we spending in Israel and not Americans?".

---

Its more a rational political question...its interesting you think the question of why should American politicians spend money on Americans vs on foreigners is a "emotional question"

Its very reasonable to ask why its being done....what benefits it has for the American people....and given our debts levels if its unstainable (even if you think a few billion is no big deal)

In fact I suspect your attachment to sending billions in tax payer money to Israel is based more on emotion than it is on rational cost vs benefit analysis....or any concerns for actual American defense

---

Suspect all you want and twist what I said all you want. Reality is we aren't arguing about aid to South Korea or Egypt, it's Israel, as it always seems to be. That's not by coincidence.

---

I am happy to have those arguments and talk about which relationships are really necessary for our real security needs

(Speaking of Egypt you do realize a big reason we give them billions of dollars is so they keep the peace with Israel right?)

---

Hardly

sombear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

The_barBEARian said:

---

sombear said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

Link to Interview

It is a given that most people haven't heard of the USS Liberty. It's something that is generally glossed over in history classes, if it is taught at all. Or at least it used to be that way.

The official explanation is it was a case of mistaken identity that led to the death of 34 American servicemen in an attack that lasted far longer - and with multiple waves - than a case of mistaken identity would allow for.

Friendly fire happens. Pat Tillman was the most recent well known case of this. The USS Liberty attack was absolutely not a case of friendly fire.

Go watch the video, and remember the casualties on that ship next time someone starts advocating for war in Ukraine, Syria, Iran, or elsewhere.

---

Most people haven't heard of it? It was covered in my rural Indiana high school and again in college.

It remains unclear exactly what happened and why.

But let's say the absolute worst is true. Why should that affect foreign policy 57 years later? We are strong allies with a number of former enemies.

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When is Israel going to pay back the trillion dollars the American tax payer has given them? We sure could use the money with our historic debt-to-GDP.

Allies pay back their debts.

Enemies do not.

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Israel just utterly destroyed two Iranian proxies which have killed thousands of Amcits and currently hold several hostage. That campaign also denied the Syrian regime of an ally it depended upon to defend the line of advance into Damascus, causing the fall of the Assad regime, an Iranian ally who has been on the State Sponsor of Terrorism...

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Sure...100% correct

But don't act like they did it for America

Israel acts to the benefit of Israel only.....

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Pre-1980 Iran was a very reliable proxy like Israel, too. A Shiite country surrounded by antagonistic Sunni countries, as well as a contiguous border with the USSR. Made them a very motivated ally. That is why Obama and Biden courted them so hard, foolishly hard. They wanted to flip them over to our side. And it was profoundly stupid, as the current regime is ideologically rooted in hatred of the West in general and USA in particular. As we have seen, no amount of inducements moved them an inch toward us and a lot more than that in the wrong direction.

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I can certainly see why having Iran as pro-American ally would be very beneficial (big country, lots of oil, strategic location)

Still not sure what Israel it's us in the region that we already do not have.

But that is an interesting point about Obama-Biden still trying to pull Iran into the American orbit….though that seems like a lost cause given Irans current rulers

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if you can't see what Israel has done for us in the last 12 months, I can't help you. Biggest bang for the buck, ever.

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Interesting perspective.

Honestly think it's the other way around.

Without US financial support and military assets in the region……it's highly unlikely the rest of the Muslin world world have sat back while Israel invaded Gaza, Lebanon and Syria.

Killing thousands in the process.

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......in the process killing millions of Jews and empowering Hizballah & Hamas which of course have killed thousands of Americans over the decades and still hold US hostages, leaving a pro-Russian/pro-Iranian regime in place to threaten a Nato ally (Turkey).

How exactly is that preferrable to US interests than what has happened?
-total destruction of Hamas
-near total destruction of Hizballah
-fall of a major terror-sponsor regime in Damascus
-total collapse of decades of Iranian policy aimed at undermining US power around the world
-effective collapse of decades of Palestinian destabilization of the region.

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Preferable to US intersects is to let Israel fight their own wars and finance their own issues.
which is another way of saying "let the islamic world destroy Israel."
That is a policy option which has not one keystroke of benefit to the USA.
How many Israeli migrants would you be willing to host? All 10m of them?

70 years of US involvement is more than enough.
It's been highly effective, arguably more so dollar for dollar, than any other ally relationship.

Focus on the needs of Americans right here at home.

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Israel is important to Americans here at home, a strong majority of which support the existence of the Jewish state.

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70 years is enough period.

And you and I both know it's only gone on this long due to intense lobbying of our government officials.

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For no more than we spend, we should do it forever. Biggest bang for the buck out of any ally.

And no, it is quite silly to suggest that our alliance with Israel is solely due to Jewish lobby money. The needs/benefits are quite obvious, no matter how hard you try not to see them.

Aid to Israel is less than 1% of the budget deficit, buddy...... And for that expense we got total destruction of Hamas & Hizballah, without a single drop of American soldier sweat.

I do believe you'd hack off your foot to save 50% on the cost trimming your toenails.

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Stupid post.

We have spent billions of dollars on Israel annually for decades.

It's only done at this point due to millions of dollars given to our political operatives by Israeli lobbyists.


70 years worth…..take a moment and really let that sink in.


Time to focus on our own problems ; our own people.

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We spend Trillions every year on our own people and our own problems. You feeling the impact? You think another couple Billion would help?

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Yes....to the people who would be effected positively by that billion its very important

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That's what every politician who has ever argued for an increase in entitlement spending, or new welfare program, or jobs bill has said. Then the reality of government mismanagement takes hold. It's truly remarkable you'd even make that argument.

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Its far more remarkable that you are making the argument that a few billion dollars of tax payer money is no big deal. (when it is)

And that it should be handed off to foreigners in another country. (insulting)

Have you personally sent money to Israel? Try doing that first before you advocate sending billions of tax payer money to them

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I'm willing to pay for the defense of this country and have the understanding that jobs are actually created within the military and supporting industries, all be it hamstrung with similar inefficiencies.

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You pretend to be a fiscal hawk.....but now you are ok with large amounts of government defense spending?

Fair enough....so your concerns about government spending are very hypocritical

(not to mention you can spend money on US defense without giving money to Israel....that is a logical fallacy)

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I literally said in the post you responded to, if you want to save the money, that's a legitimate argument. You just failed to either read or include that in your reply. I'm fine with cutting. Not this emotional appeal argument over "why are we spending in Israel and not Americans?".

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Its more a rational political question...its interesting you think the question of why should American politicians spend money on Americans vs on foreigners is a "emotional question"

Its very reasonable to ask why its being done....what benefits it has for the American people....and given our debts levels if its unstainable (even if you think a few billion is no big deal)

In fact I suspect your attachment to sending billions in tax payer money to Israel is based more on emotion than it is on rational cost vs benefit analysis....or any concerns for actual American defense

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Suspect all you want and twist what I said all you want. Reality is we aren't arguing about aid to South Korea or Egypt, it's Israel, as it always seems to be. That's not by coincidence.

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I am happy to have those arguments and talk about which relationships are really necessary for our real security needs

(Speaking of Egypt you do realize a big reason we give them billions of dollars is so they keep the peace with Israel right?)

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Hardly

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That is a factual statement

Part of the reason Egypt gets $2 billion plus a from us is to keep the peace treaty with Israel