whiterock said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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whiterock said:

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Osodecentx said:

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whiterock said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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whiterock said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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whiterock said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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whiterock said:

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look at the implicit premise of your measure of effectiveness: number of bills passed.

Is that really the only yardstick (or even the one that matters most)?
Doesn't a consistent voting record have value?
Is there no benefit to OPPOSING things in Congress?
is there no benefit to elected officials using bully pulpit to organize public sentiment?

She's a rabble rousing Freedom Caucus member seeking to force the GOP to be more attentive to the platform agenda. So was RDS. They had virtually identical voting records.

So you can criticize her eloquence and her choice of where to draw the battle lines. But she's hardly outside the mainstream with her views/votes. A good leaders can figure out ways to put her combatitiveness to good use. Democrats do it. Why can't we?

(hint: you say she "undermines the majority" yet it is the moderates who are largely responsible for MTG. If you would just vote for the platform agenda, there'd be no oxygen for the Freedom Caucus to exist.)

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The problem I see is that the Speaker sets the Agenda.
The party Platform IS the agenda; the Speaker is supposed to execute a plan to enact the platform.
The Whip does what it takes to ensure that the Speaker gets the Votes.
If the whip is whipping the base rather than the moderates, that is a sign the Speaker is NOT working the platform. You don't have to whip the base to pass the platform. You have to whip moderates to pass the platform......
The Freedom Caucus and MTG working within the structure is fine, the Grandstanding playing the media to force their hand? No, that just empowers the Dems.
No, it empowers the platform agenda.

The biggest issue I have with the Freedom Caucus is they do not care about anything but their narrow view.
It's called "the platform." The reality of how the Govt runs, keeping the Nation operating or god forbid moving the Nation forward vs Russia, China and Iran is non-existent.
They were elected to enact the platform into law, not empower the other side to get its own platform enacted into law, or to protect things that are at odds with platform agendas.

The Freedom Caucus thinks it is the 94 Revolution and T-Party on Steroids.
Why shouldn't it be? We've got a frickin' disaster not because of a lack of compromise but because Democrats passed bad law!
What they fail to realize was that both those movements attacked Dem Administrations. TThe Freedom Caucus that will shut down the Govt and burn it down if it doesn't get its way and is attacking its own Party! .....to stop their own party from helping Democrats enact bad policy! Stopping bad stuff from getting enacted into law is a core job requirement of a Congresscritter. Democrats do a very good job of it against us. Why should we not return the favor?

She and her cronies don't work within the GOP system and are willing to attack the Speaker when THEY have power!
Why shouldn't a speaker who breaks promises to his/her caucus be attacked? Exactly what does it look like when the speaker whips the base too hard? Isn't the base allowed to bite back?
MTG and the Freedom Caucus is a dream come true for the Dems. They love her taking the knees out from under the Speaker and letting the Dems "save" him. She and her group are idiots that do more damage than good. Voting is one part of being a Congressperson.
Dems are scared of the FC. "if you're taking flack, you're over the target....." Remember that one?

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You are just making an appeal to teamwork and civility, which do have a time and place, just not when a majority of Republicans are demanding better (more conservative) leadership.

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You also keep referring to MTG as the Whip, she is not. I have no problem with the Whip doing their job, most of the time they operate behind the scenes. I can't think of a well known Whip since Gingrich.

You also keep referring to MTG and MAGA as the "base", we disagree. The whole MAGA/Gang of 8 are on the fringe, not the base. That is why Gaetz was only able to get those 8 votes, a quirky House rule (which will never get passed again) and the small number of GOP Majority is what allowed it to happen. You keep acting like it was "base" movement, it was not. It was 8 of over 279. That is not the base... MTG HAD LESS. A quirk of rule making that got passed is the only reason this small minority of the GOP has any voice at all. You are mistaken that quirk for the base. Without that rule, you hear NOTHING from this crowd but MTG's shrill *****ing and Gaetz's scheming.

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Every member of the caucus will whip what they can. Some do it behind the scenes. Some for the cameras. Each method has its time and place. In that context, the FC exist almost exclusive as a bulwark AGAINST whipping by moderate Speakers, to push back and force more accommodation of platform objectives.

The vote total did not reflect what you presume. There are dozens of members who shared exactly MTG's views on the Speaker's actions. They just didn't want to have another protracted speaker fight. MTG, if you remember, stuck with McCarthy all the way to the end. She didn't do that because she agreed with McCarthy on issues. She did it because she had carved out a role for herself under McCarthy and didn't see a similar space available under a new speaker.

You keep avoiding the obvious - if you want the FC to go away, just keep putting platform agenda items up for votes and quit making compromises that hand Democrats their platform agenda at the expense of ours. I'm perfectly happy with a Congress that does nothing except shooting down every bill the Democrats propose. We'd be way better off than having all those expensive compromises we keep getting that gut the country in so many ways. That's what Dems do. Just put their platform agenda up for a vote. Why can't we do that?

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You keep going to the "presume", "not what it looks like", etc... The bottomline is that there are too many factions only concerned with their slice of the pie.
It has always been so and always will be. It's easy to work with your own base. You know what they want and broadly agree with them. So if you find yourself whipping them....isn't that a sign something is wrong with the bill you're whipping them about?

At least at the GOP should find items THEY agree on and put together an Agenda. Hell, the Border that is a no brainer...

We do agree on your last point, they need to put the Agenda to a vote. That is where the strength of the majority can work.

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We do agree on and put together an agenda. We do it every 2 years at Party Conventions = write a platform. We do it every 4 years at a National Convention. Weeks writing rules for the convention(s) before the first gavel falls. Months arguing about platform planks before the first gavel falls. And then, the platform is passed at a national convention, with strong influence from the Presidential nominee (who gets nearly every thing they want). So we do have an agenda. The only question is, will our elected officials execute on it. Far too often, they don't. Ergo the rise of the FC.

The FC exists solely due to broad dissatisfaction with GOP leadership. If GOP leadership is conservative enough, the FC will have no oxygen to survive.

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Looking for a copy of the Texas Republican Party platform. Where can I get it

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https://texasgop.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/2022-RPT-Platform.pdf

Would much prefer it to be 4 or 5 pages rather than 45, and that is an argument had at every convention, but it always ends up being a tome. But it shows the amount of work and thought that goes into it. Lots of people, each of them nominated by their Senate Districts, lots of long meetings, etc......

the participation is fresh. I only recognize three names on the first page. Dr. Armstrong has been one of our RNC reps forever and is a very steady hand. Vergel Cruz is a fine young man with a future. Jack DuBose has been around for a good while, too. So there's lots of fresh blood, seasoned with some old hands. Always a healthy sign in political party.

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One of the things that Trump did well in 2020 was posting the Agenda, I posted it earlier, it was an easy to understand bulleted list of what he wanted to do. "Keep it Simple, Stupid", right?

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that bullet list you cited was started when I was on the SREC......exactly for the purposes you cited. So now we have a long and detailed document PLUS a short bullet list that could be put on a bi-fold handout. Something for the scholars, and something for the salesman. Nice balance.....

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As I said earlier in a discussion, aimed at the WHOLE GOP, pick one and get it done. Not that complicated, there has to be one thing they all agree on!

whiterock said:

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Osodecentx said:

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whiterock said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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whiterock said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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whiterock said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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whiterock said:

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look at the implicit premise of your measure of effectiveness: number of bills passed.

Is that really the only yardstick (or even the one that matters most)?
Doesn't a consistent voting record have value?
Is there no benefit to OPPOSING things in Congress?
is there no benefit to elected officials using bully pulpit to organize public sentiment?

She's a rabble rousing Freedom Caucus member seeking to force the GOP to be more attentive to the platform agenda. So was RDS. They had virtually identical voting records.

So you can criticize her eloquence and her choice of where to draw the battle lines. But she's hardly outside the mainstream with her views/votes. A good leaders can figure out ways to put her combatitiveness to good use. Democrats do it. Why can't we?

(hint: you say she "undermines the majority" yet it is the moderates who are largely responsible for MTG. If you would just vote for the platform agenda, there'd be no oxygen for the Freedom Caucus to exist.)

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The problem I see is that the Speaker sets the Agenda.
The party Platform IS the agenda; the Speaker is supposed to execute a plan to enact the platform.
The Whip does what it takes to ensure that the Speaker gets the Votes.
If the whip is whipping the base rather than the moderates, that is a sign the Speaker is NOT working the platform. You don't have to whip the base to pass the platform. You have to whip moderates to pass the platform......
The Freedom Caucus and MTG working within the structure is fine, the Grandstanding playing the media to force their hand? No, that just empowers the Dems.
No, it empowers the platform agenda.

The biggest issue I have with the Freedom Caucus is they do not care about anything but their narrow view.
It's called "the platform." The reality of how the Govt runs, keeping the Nation operating or god forbid moving the Nation forward vs Russia, China and Iran is non-existent.
They were elected to enact the platform into law, not empower the other side to get its own platform enacted into law, or to protect things that are at odds with platform agendas.

The Freedom Caucus thinks it is the 94 Revolution and T-Party on Steroids.
Why shouldn't it be? We've got a frickin' disaster not because of a lack of compromise but because Democrats passed bad law!
What they fail to realize was that both those movements attacked Dem Administrations. TThe Freedom Caucus that will shut down the Govt and burn it down if it doesn't get its way and is attacking its own Party! .....to stop their own party from helping Democrats enact bad policy! Stopping bad stuff from getting enacted into law is a core job requirement of a Congresscritter. Democrats do a very good job of it against us. Why should we not return the favor?

She and her cronies don't work within the GOP system and are willing to attack the Speaker when THEY have power!
Why shouldn't a speaker who breaks promises to his/her caucus be attacked? Exactly what does it look like when the speaker whips the base too hard? Isn't the base allowed to bite back?
MTG and the Freedom Caucus is a dream come true for the Dems. They love her taking the knees out from under the Speaker and letting the Dems "save" him. She and her group are idiots that do more damage than good. Voting is one part of being a Congressperson.
Dems are scared of the FC. "if you're taking flack, you're over the target....." Remember that one?

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You are just making an appeal to teamwork and civility, which do have a time and place, just not when a majority of Republicans are demanding better (more conservative) leadership.

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You also keep referring to MTG as the Whip, she is not. I have no problem with the Whip doing their job, most of the time they operate behind the scenes. I can't think of a well known Whip since Gingrich.

You also keep referring to MTG and MAGA as the "base", we disagree. The whole MAGA/Gang of 8 are on the fringe, not the base. That is why Gaetz was only able to get those 8 votes, a quirky House rule (which will never get passed again) and the small number of GOP Majority is what allowed it to happen. You keep acting like it was "base" movement, it was not. It was 8 of over 279. That is not the base... MTG HAD LESS. A quirk of rule making that got passed is the only reason this small minority of the GOP has any voice at all. You are mistaken that quirk for the base. Without that rule, you hear NOTHING from this crowd but MTG's shrill *****ing and Gaetz's scheming.

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Every member of the caucus will whip what they can. Some do it behind the scenes. Some for the cameras. Each method has its time and place. In that context, the FC exist almost exclusive as a bulwark AGAINST whipping by moderate Speakers, to push back and force more accommodation of platform objectives.

The vote total did not reflect what you presume. There are dozens of members who shared exactly MTG's views on the Speaker's actions. They just didn't want to have another protracted speaker fight. MTG, if you remember, stuck with McCarthy all the way to the end. She didn't do that because she agreed with McCarthy on issues. She did it because she had carved out a role for herself under McCarthy and didn't see a similar space available under a new speaker.

You keep avoiding the obvious - if you want the FC to go away, just keep putting platform agenda items up for votes and quit making compromises that hand Democrats their platform agenda at the expense of ours. I'm perfectly happy with a Congress that does nothing except shooting down every bill the Democrats propose. We'd be way better off than having all those expensive compromises we keep getting that gut the country in so many ways. That's what Dems do. Just put their platform agenda up for a vote. Why can't we do that?

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You keep going to the "presume", "not what it looks like", etc... The bottomline is that there are too many factions only concerned with their slice of the pie.
It has always been so and always will be. It's easy to work with your own base. You know what they want and broadly agree with them. So if you find yourself whipping them....isn't that a sign something is wrong with the bill you're whipping them about?

At least at the GOP should find items THEY agree on and put together an Agenda. Hell, the Border that is a no brainer...

We do agree on your last point, they need to put the Agenda to a vote. That is where the strength of the majority can work.

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We do agree on and put together an agenda. We do it every 2 years at Party Conventions = write a platform. We do it every 4 years at a National Convention. Weeks writing rules for the convention(s) before the first gavel falls. Months arguing about platform planks before the first gavel falls. And then, the platform is passed at a national convention, with strong influence from the Presidential nominee (who gets nearly every thing they want). So we do have an agenda. The only question is, will our elected officials execute on it. Far too often, they don't. Ergo the rise of the FC.

The FC exists solely due to broad dissatisfaction with GOP leadership. If GOP leadership is conservative enough, the FC will have no oxygen to survive.

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Looking for a copy of the Texas Republican Party platform. Where can I get it

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https://texasgop.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/2022-RPT-Platform.pdf

Would much prefer it to be 4 or 5 pages rather than 45, and that is an argument had at every convention, but it always ends up being a tome. But it shows the amount of work and thought that goes into it. Lots of people, each of them nominated by their Senate Districts, lots of long meetings, etc......

the participation is fresh. I only recognize three names on the first page. Dr. Armstrong has been one of our RNC reps forever and is a very steady hand. Vergel Cruz is a fine young man with a future. Jack DuBose has been around for a good while, too. So there's lots of fresh blood, seasoned with some old hands. Always a healthy sign in political party.

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Thanks

FLBear5630 said:

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whiterock said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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whiterock said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Osodecentx said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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whiterock said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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whiterock said:

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That's a lot of fallacies to pack into a single post.

Do you think some of those bills were popular with the base of the party? That maybe they got drowned in swampishness, like the effort to tie border funding to funding for Israel and Ukraine?

The caucus and the base are not synonymous......

You just don't like her style. But an enormous swathe of the base does, because they are highly unhappy with the way business is being conducted. As long as a third or more of the GOP base is unhappy with the way a GOP congress operates, there will be loud voices pandering to it. That's politics. You either do what your base wants you to do, or you will hear about it. You are so tolerant of dissonance on other dynamics. Why is this one so hard for you to accept.

Man, I'm in disagreement with her on Ukraine funding. But I can see that my views are losing the argument and that I'm in a minority within the party, that HER views are more reflective of party opinion than mine.

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She is not an effective lawmaker, she has done nothing but throw moltovs since being there. She has no legislation and just got smacked down by both the Congress and Trump for her Johnson debacle. She may represent an extreme portion of the GOP but. she has not forwarded anything accept win a few extremist fans like yourself and some others. Don't tell me she represents the Base because you like her, similarly don't tell me she is the Whip. She isnt. If she represented the base, she would be in a leadership role and have support. Not just the gang of 8.

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Bad argument. Most members of House and Senate are not lawmakers. Just do the math. In any given session, there are 600-1200 bills passed. That works out to about 1-2 bills per session, per member. In reality, two thirds of reps get no legislation passed. Lots of factors in that beyond ability (interests, constituency, seniority, committee chairmanship power, affiliated with party in/out of power, etc.....). Data from the 117th:
https://www.govtrack.us/congress/members/report-cards/2022/house/bills-enacted-ti
(note disclaimer in orange box).

152 reps = 0 bills
115 reps = 1 bill
83 reps = 2 bills
42 = 3
17 = 4
10 = 5
7 = 6
3 = 7
2 = 8
3 = 9
1 = 11
1 = 13

Debate on the bills is as important as the drafting of them, and on that score, she is quite effective. She focuses attention on legislation of interest to most Republicans. And on that score, her views on most issues are squarely in the mainstream of the GOP, majoritarian stuff. It's her style you don't like. But an awful lot of other people do. Cheerleading for/against legislation is an important part of the job, and she's very good at it for her constituencies.

That part in bold is really silly. The fundamental dynamic we're talking about is that GOP leadership has traditionally NOT represented well the views of the base.....that the reason we have the Freedom Caucus in the first place- to hold moderate leadership accountable for not pushing hard enough on the platform agenda. And then there's just your lack of understanding of how the House works. Leadership traditionally goes to reps who raise the most money. There are big chalkboards up 24/7, real-time standings on fundraising leaders. Relatively few districts have enough fundraising base to support it's own congressional election. So that fundraising inevitably comes from places like mega-donors, industry lobbyists, interest PACs across the spectrum, etc.... Very hard to make leadership with small donors from the base. You have to take your campaign nationwide and make news breaking glass. To make it to leadership, you have to take the swampy route....raising from all the special interest PACs, most of which are not part of the conservative movement.

Dude, if we had conservative legislation actually getting passed, there'd be no oxygen for a Freedom Caucus.

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Tell you what, you are right. MTG is the Base. She is a stellar Congresswoman. Her positions will save the Nation. She is the Whip and her job is not to move Legislation or create laws. Ok? You are right. You convinced me. Long Live MTG...

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Undoubtedly the leader of the GOP congressional delegation and she represents the majority of the Republican Party under Trump.

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We are good. You only want to hear how right you are. So, you are right. If you are going to defend MTG as a good, responsible and sane Legislature than you are no better than the Dems pushing the Squad. There is no need to talk. That says it all. You are MAGA through and through and really don't want to discuss positions or the total Congress.

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I don't know, Dems are pretty effective in getting their agenda passed into law despite having a lot more and crazier MTG types. They have a 1-seat majority in the Senate and get everything they want enacted into law. No theatrics. We have a 4 seat majority in the House and, well.......

Dems know how to triangulate. The GOP can't get there because they are offended by the very people they should be using for triangulation.

Has it occurred to you that a pretty conservative speaker with a razor thin majority might appreciate the fact that someone else is bringing heat on the moderates?

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If they were working on tandem to get an agenda delivered? Yes, I agree would be good. But MTG is attacking Johnson and made a move for removal, requiring Dems to step in. Weakening the Speaker, not the move of a organized move. I actually would be thankful for SOME type of coordinated strategy, even if it failed. It would show some forethought to accomplishing an agenda. Right now, too splintered to get anything done.

Hell, have a retreat and create a strategy on how all fractions can work to deliver something. Pick, I don't care, border, budget, energy, Ukraine, Israel, taxes... I want to see some organized, coordinated, thought process.

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That's what a caucus is....a retreat to discuss stuff.

REPEATEDLY, you absolve the moderates from any responsibility for the division. It is the moderates who always balk at voting for the platform agenda. That forces the Speaker to move to center and then start whipping the conservatives. Then, predictably, the conservatives start to squawk. You should not have to whip your base. You should have to whip your center. If you're always whipping your base, you're not pushing the platform agenda - which is the whole reason parties have primary elections = to elect representatives who will enact the platform into law.

Every time MTG threatens to remove him, she strengthens his hand with the moderates. It allows him to say to them "hey guys, I need some room here,....remember how it went last time? You could end up with a speaker more conservative than me." And this speaker appears to be doing exactly that. The previous one sure didn't.

GOP has a long tradition of electing leadership from blue/swing districts/states, the theory being that moderate leadership would extend appeal in swing districts. All it did, though, was give leadership positions to people whose worldview was that the GOP should always hide its conservatism in order to survive. Dems do not do that. Dems elect leadership from hard blue states/districts. Pelosi? San Francisco liberal. Jeffries? Member of the Democrat Progressive Caucus (the functional equivalent of the GOP Freedom Caucus).

Fact - MTG is no further right than Jeffries is left.
Yet you only want to beat up on MTG and don't have syllable of complaint about anybody on their side.

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There you go again. MTG IS NOT THE BASE, she is the fringe Right. Both her a Gaetz's actions of the last 6 months have shown they are not the base. If they were the Base, Johnson would not be Speaker. Gaetz would not have needed a "morphed" rule to remove McCarthy (which he struggled to get done).

Just because you and two or three posters on here like MTG and the Fringe Right message doesn't make them the Base. Look at the recent votes, they are not the votes of a Matt Gaetz/MTG base. Johnson has a much better grasp of the Base than MTG.

Don't mistake a fluke of a messed up election versus the most progressive President ever, as determining the Base. Voting for Trump does not make MAGA the Base. Look at the votes, that is a better indication of the Base, much more Moderate GOP than the 8-15 MAGA squeeky wheel Reps.

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What you think the fringe right is, is actually the majority of GOP voters.

FLBear5630 said:

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whiterock said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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whiterock said:

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Osodecentx said:

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whiterock said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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whiterock said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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whiterock said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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whiterock said:

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look at the implicit premise of your measure of effectiveness: number of bills passed.

Is that really the only yardstick (or even the one that matters most)?
Doesn't a consistent voting record have value?
Is there no benefit to OPPOSING things in Congress?
is there no benefit to elected officials using bully pulpit to organize public sentiment?

She's a rabble rousing Freedom Caucus member seeking to force the GOP to be more attentive to the platform agenda. So was RDS. They had virtually identical voting records.

So you can criticize her eloquence and her choice of where to draw the battle lines. But she's hardly outside the mainstream with her views/votes. A good leaders can figure out ways to put her combatitiveness to good use. Democrats do it. Why can't we?

(hint: you say she "undermines the majority" yet it is the moderates who are largely responsible for MTG. If you would just vote for the platform agenda, there'd be no oxygen for the Freedom Caucus to exist.)

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The problem I see is that the Speaker sets the Agenda.
The party Platform IS the agenda; the Speaker is supposed to execute a plan to enact the platform.
The Whip does what it takes to ensure that the Speaker gets the Votes.
If the whip is whipping the base rather than the moderates, that is a sign the Speaker is NOT working the platform. You don't have to whip the base to pass the platform. You have to whip moderates to pass the platform......
The Freedom Caucus and MTG working within the structure is fine, the Grandstanding playing the media to force their hand? No, that just empowers the Dems.
No, it empowers the platform agenda.

The biggest issue I have with the Freedom Caucus is they do not care about anything but their narrow view.
It's called "the platform." The reality of how the Govt runs, keeping the Nation operating or god forbid moving the Nation forward vs Russia, China and Iran is non-existent.
They were elected to enact the platform into law, not empower the other side to get its own platform enacted into law, or to protect things that are at odds with platform agendas.

The Freedom Caucus thinks it is the 94 Revolution and T-Party on Steroids.
Why shouldn't it be? We've got a frickin' disaster not because of a lack of compromise but because Democrats passed bad law!
What they fail to realize was that both those movements attacked Dem Administrations. TThe Freedom Caucus that will shut down the Govt and burn it down if it doesn't get its way and is attacking its own Party! .....to stop their own party from helping Democrats enact bad policy! Stopping bad stuff from getting enacted into law is a core job requirement of a Congresscritter. Democrats do a very good job of it against us. Why should we not return the favor?

She and her cronies don't work within the GOP system and are willing to attack the Speaker when THEY have power!
Why shouldn't a speaker who breaks promises to his/her caucus be attacked? Exactly what does it look like when the speaker whips the base too hard? Isn't the base allowed to bite back?
MTG and the Freedom Caucus is a dream come true for the Dems. They love her taking the knees out from under the Speaker and letting the Dems "save" him. She and her group are idiots that do more damage than good. Voting is one part of being a Congressperson.
Dems are scared of the FC. "if you're taking flack, you're over the target....." Remember that one?

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You are just making an appeal to teamwork and civility, which do have a time and place, just not when a majority of Republicans are demanding better (more conservative) leadership.

---

You also keep referring to MTG as the Whip, she is not. I have no problem with the Whip doing their job, most of the time they operate behind the scenes. I can't think of a well known Whip since Gingrich.

You also keep referring to MTG and MAGA as the "base", we disagree. The whole MAGA/Gang of 8 are on the fringe, not the base. That is why Gaetz was only able to get those 8 votes, a quirky House rule (which will never get passed again) and the small number of GOP Majority is what allowed it to happen. You keep acting like it was "base" movement, it was not. It was 8 of over 279. That is not the base... MTG HAD LESS. A quirk of rule making that got passed is the only reason this small minority of the GOP has any voice at all. You are mistaken that quirk for the base. Without that rule, you hear NOTHING from this crowd but MTG's shrill *****ing and Gaetz's scheming.

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Every member of the caucus will whip what they can. Some do it behind the scenes. Some for the cameras. Each method has its time and place. In that context, the FC exist almost exclusive as a bulwark AGAINST whipping by moderate Speakers, to push back and force more accommodation of platform objectives.

The vote total did not reflect what you presume. There are dozens of members who shared exactly MTG's views on the Speaker's actions. They just didn't want to have another protracted speaker fight. MTG, if you remember, stuck with McCarthy all the way to the end. She didn't do that because she agreed with McCarthy on issues. She did it because she had carved out a role for herself under McCarthy and didn't see a similar space available under a new speaker.

You keep avoiding the obvious - if you want the FC to go away, just keep putting platform agenda items up for votes and quit making compromises that hand Democrats their platform agenda at the expense of ours. I'm perfectly happy with a Congress that does nothing except shooting down every bill the Democrats propose. We'd be way better off than having all those expensive compromises we keep getting that gut the country in so many ways. That's what Dems do. Just put their platform agenda up for a vote. Why can't we do that?

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You keep going to the "presume", "not what it looks like", etc... The bottomline is that there are too many factions only concerned with their slice of the pie.
It has always been so and always will be. It's easy to work with your own base. You know what they want and broadly agree with them. So if you find yourself whipping them....isn't that a sign something is wrong with the bill you're whipping them about?

At least at the GOP should find items THEY agree on and put together an Agenda. Hell, the Border that is a no brainer...

We do agree on your last point, they need to put the Agenda to a vote. That is where the strength of the majority can work.

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We do agree on and put together an agenda. We do it every 2 years at Party Conventions = write a platform. We do it every 4 years at a National Convention. Weeks writing rules for the convention(s) before the first gavel falls. Months arguing about platform planks before the first gavel falls. And then, the platform is passed at a national convention, with strong influence from the Presidential nominee (who gets nearly every thing they want). So we do have an agenda. The only question is, will our elected officials execute on it. Far too often, they don't. Ergo the rise of the FC.

The FC exists solely due to broad dissatisfaction with GOP leadership. If GOP leadership is conservative enough, the FC will have no oxygen to survive.

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Looking for a copy of the Texas Republican Party platform. Where can I get it

---

https://texasgop.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/2022-RPT-Platform.pdf

Would much prefer it to be 4 or 5 pages rather than 45, and that is an argument had at every convention, but it always ends up being a tome. But it shows the amount of work and thought that goes into it. Lots of people, each of them nominated by their Senate Districts, lots of long meetings, etc......

the participation is fresh. I only recognize three names on the first page. Dr. Armstrong has been one of our RNC reps forever and is a very steady hand. Vergel Cruz is a fine young man with a future. Jack DuBose has been around for a good while, too. So there's lots of fresh blood, seasoned with some old hands. Always a healthy sign in political party.

---

One of the things that Trump did well in 2020 was posting the Agenda, I posted it earlier, it was an easy to understand bulleted list of what he wanted to do. "Keep it Simple, Stupid", right?

---

that bullet list you cited was started when I was on the SREC......exactly for the purposes you cited. So now we have a long and detailed document PLUS a short bullet list that could be put on a bi-fold handout. Something for the scholars, and something for the salesman. Nice balance.....

---

As I said earlier in a discussion, aimed at the WHOLE GOP, pick one and get it done. Not that complicated, there has to be one thing they all agree on!

---

There is broad agreement on the platform. Where the disagreement starts, is on whether or not the GOP should actually try very hard to get any of it passed. Leadership leaves much to be desired on that critical point.

Doc Holliday said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

That's a lot of fallacies to pack into a single post.

Do you think some of those bills were popular with the base of the party? That maybe they got drowned in swampishness, like the effort to tie border funding to funding for Israel and Ukraine?

The caucus and the base are not synonymous......

You just don't like her style. But an enormous swathe of the base does, because they are highly unhappy with the way business is being conducted. As long as a third or more of the GOP base is unhappy with the way a GOP congress operates, there will be loud voices pandering to it. That's politics. You either do what your base wants you to do, or you will hear about it. You are so tolerant of dissonance on other dynamics. Why is this one so hard for you to accept.

Man, I'm in disagreement with her on Ukraine funding. But I can see that my views are losing the argument and that I'm in a minority within the party, that HER views are more reflective of party opinion than mine.

---

She is not an effective lawmaker, she has done nothing but throw moltovs since being there. She has no legislation and just got smacked down by both the Congress and Trump for her Johnson debacle. She may represent an extreme portion of the GOP but. she has not forwarded anything accept win a few extremist fans like yourself and some others. Don't tell me she represents the Base because you like her, similarly don't tell me she is the Whip. She isnt. If she represented the base, she would be in a leadership role and have support. Not just the gang of 8.

---

Bad argument. Most members of House and Senate are not lawmakers. Just do the math. In any given session, there are 600-1200 bills passed. That works out to about 1-2 bills per session, per member. In reality, two thirds of reps get no legislation passed. Lots of factors in that beyond ability (interests, constituency, seniority, committee chairmanship power, affiliated with party in/out of power, etc.....). Data from the 117th:
https://www.govtrack.us/congress/members/report-cards/2022/house/bills-enacted-ti
(note disclaimer in orange box).

152 reps = 0 bills
115 reps = 1 bill
83 reps = 2 bills
42 = 3
17 = 4
10 = 5
7 = 6
3 = 7
2 = 8
3 = 9
1 = 11
1 = 13

Debate on the bills is as important as the drafting of them, and on that score, she is quite effective. She focuses attention on legislation of interest to most Republicans. And on that score, her views on most issues are squarely in the mainstream of the GOP, majoritarian stuff. It's her style you don't like. But an awful lot of other people do. Cheerleading for/against legislation is an important part of the job, and she's very good at it for her constituencies.

That part in bold is really silly. The fundamental dynamic we're talking about is that GOP leadership has traditionally NOT represented well the views of the base.....that the reason we have the Freedom Caucus in the first place- to hold moderate leadership accountable for not pushing hard enough on the platform agenda. And then there's just your lack of understanding of how the House works. Leadership traditionally goes to reps who raise the most money. There are big chalkboards up 24/7, real-time standings on fundraising leaders. Relatively few districts have enough fundraising base to support it's own congressional election. So that fundraising inevitably comes from places like mega-donors, industry lobbyists, interest PACs across the spectrum, etc.... Very hard to make leadership with small donors from the base. You have to take your campaign nationwide and make news breaking glass. To make it to leadership, you have to take the swampy route....raising from all the special interest PACs, most of which are not part of the conservative movement.

Dude, if we had conservative legislation actually getting passed, there'd be no oxygen for a Freedom Caucus.

---

Tell you what, you are right. MTG is the Base. She is a stellar Congresswoman. Her positions will save the Nation. She is the Whip and her job is not to move Legislation or create laws. Ok? You are right. You convinced me. Long Live MTG...

---

Undoubtedly the leader of the GOP congressional delegation and she represents the majority of the Republican Party under Trump.

---

We are good. You only want to hear how right you are. So, you are right. If you are going to defend MTG as a good, responsible and sane Legislature than you are no better than the Dems pushing the Squad. There is no need to talk. That says it all. You are MAGA through and through and really don't want to discuss positions or the total Congress.

---

I don't know, Dems are pretty effective in getting their agenda passed into law despite having a lot more and crazier MTG types. They have a 1-seat majority in the Senate and get everything they want enacted into law. No theatrics. We have a 4 seat majority in the House and, well.......

Dems know how to triangulate. The GOP can't get there because they are offended by the very people they should be using for triangulation.

Has it occurred to you that a pretty conservative speaker with a razor thin majority might appreciate the fact that someone else is bringing heat on the moderates?

---

If they were working on tandem to get an agenda delivered? Yes, I agree would be good. But MTG is attacking Johnson and made a move for removal, requiring Dems to step in. Weakening the Speaker, not the move of a organized move. I actually would be thankful for SOME type of coordinated strategy, even if it failed. It would show some forethought to accomplishing an agenda. Right now, too splintered to get anything done.

Hell, have a retreat and create a strategy on how all fractions can work to deliver something. Pick, I don't care, border, budget, energy, Ukraine, Israel, taxes... I want to see some organized, coordinated, thought process.

---

That's what a caucus is....a retreat to discuss stuff.

REPEATEDLY, you absolve the moderates from any responsibility for the division. It is the moderates who always balk at voting for the platform agenda. That forces the Speaker to move to center and then start whipping the conservatives. Then, predictably, the conservatives start to squawk. You should not have to whip your base. You should have to whip your center. If you're always whipping your base, you're not pushing the platform agenda - which is the whole reason parties have primary elections = to elect representatives who will enact the platform into law.

Every time MTG threatens to remove him, she strengthens his hand with the moderates. It allows him to say to them "hey guys, I need some room here,....remember how it went last time? You could end up with a speaker more conservative than me." And this speaker appears to be doing exactly that. The previous one sure didn't.

GOP has a long tradition of electing leadership from blue/swing districts/states, the theory being that moderate leadership would extend appeal in swing districts. All it did, though, was give leadership positions to people whose worldview was that the GOP should always hide its conservatism in order to survive. Dems do not do that. Dems elect leadership from hard blue states/districts. Pelosi? San Francisco liberal. Jeffries? Member of the Democrat Progressive Caucus (the functional equivalent of the GOP Freedom Caucus).

Fact - MTG is no further right than Jeffries is left.
Yet you only want to beat up on MTG and don't have syllable of complaint about anybody on their side.

---

There you go again. MTG IS NOT THE BASE, she is the fringe Right. Both her a Gaetz's actions of the last 6 months have shown they are not the base. If they were the Base, Johnson would not be Speaker. Gaetz would not have needed a "morphed" rule to remove McCarthy (which he struggled to get done).

Just because you and two or three posters on here like MTG and the Fringe Right message doesn't make them the Base. Look at the recent votes, they are not the votes of a Matt Gaetz/MTG base. Johnson has a much better grasp of the Base than MTG.

Don't mistake a fluke of a messed up election versus the most progressive President ever, as determining the Base. Voting for Trump does not make MAGA the Base. Look at the votes, that is a better indication of the Base, much more Moderate GOP than the 8-15 MAGA squeeky wheel Reps.

---

What you think the fringe right is, is actually the majority of GOP voters.

---

"the arrogance of the moderates"

They think anything to the right of them is kookery to be ignored and if necessary suppressed, rather than harnessed to move and widen the Overton Window.

whiterock said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

That's a lot of fallacies to pack into a single post.

Do you think some of those bills were popular with the base of the party? That maybe they got drowned in swampishness, like the effort to tie border funding to funding for Israel and Ukraine?

The caucus and the base are not synonymous......

You just don't like her style. But an enormous swathe of the base does, because they are highly unhappy with the way business is being conducted. As long as a third or more of the GOP base is unhappy with the way a GOP congress operates, there will be loud voices pandering to it. That's politics. You either do what your base wants you to do, or you will hear about it. You are so tolerant of dissonance on other dynamics. Why is this one so hard for you to accept.

Man, I'm in disagreement with her on Ukraine funding. But I can see that my views are losing the argument and that I'm in a minority within the party, that HER views are more reflective of party opinion than mine.

---

She is not an effective lawmaker, she has done nothing but throw moltovs since being there. She has no legislation and just got smacked down by both the Congress and Trump for her Johnson debacle. She may represent an extreme portion of the GOP but. she has not forwarded anything accept win a few extremist fans like yourself and some others. Don't tell me she represents the Base because you like her, similarly don't tell me she is the Whip. She isnt. If she represented the base, she would be in a leadership role and have support. Not just the gang of 8.

---

Bad argument. Most members of House and Senate are not lawmakers. Just do the math. In any given session, there are 600-1200 bills passed. That works out to about 1-2 bills per session, per member. In reality, two thirds of reps get no legislation passed. Lots of factors in that beyond ability (interests, constituency, seniority, committee chairmanship power, affiliated with party in/out of power, etc.....). Data from the 117th:
https://www.govtrack.us/congress/members/report-cards/2022/house/bills-enacted-ti
(note disclaimer in orange box).

152 reps = 0 bills
115 reps = 1 bill
83 reps = 2 bills
42 = 3
17 = 4
10 = 5
7 = 6
3 = 7
2 = 8
3 = 9
1 = 11
1 = 13

Debate on the bills is as important as the drafting of them, and on that score, she is quite effective. She focuses attention on legislation of interest to most Republicans. And on that score, her views on most issues are squarely in the mainstream of the GOP, majoritarian stuff. It's her style you don't like. But an awful lot of other people do. Cheerleading for/against legislation is an important part of the job, and she's very good at it for her constituencies.

That part in bold is really silly. The fundamental dynamic we're talking about is that GOP leadership has traditionally NOT represented well the views of the base.....that the reason we have the Freedom Caucus in the first place- to hold moderate leadership accountable for not pushing hard enough on the platform agenda. And then there's just your lack of understanding of how the House works. Leadership traditionally goes to reps who raise the most money. There are big chalkboards up 24/7, real-time standings on fundraising leaders. Relatively few districts have enough fundraising base to support it's own congressional election. So that fundraising inevitably comes from places like mega-donors, industry lobbyists, interest PACs across the spectrum, etc.... Very hard to make leadership with small donors from the base. You have to take your campaign nationwide and make news breaking glass. To make it to leadership, you have to take the swampy route....raising from all the special interest PACs, most of which are not part of the conservative movement.

Dude, if we had conservative legislation actually getting passed, there'd be no oxygen for a Freedom Caucus.

---

Tell you what, you are right. MTG is the Base. She is a stellar Congresswoman. Her positions will save the Nation. She is the Whip and her job is not to move Legislation or create laws. Ok? You are right. You convinced me. Long Live MTG...

---

Undoubtedly the leader of the GOP congressional delegation and she represents the majority of the Republican Party under Trump.

---

We are good. You only want to hear how right you are. So, you are right. If you are going to defend MTG as a good, responsible and sane Legislature than you are no better than the Dems pushing the Squad. There is no need to talk. That says it all. You are MAGA through and through and really don't want to discuss positions or the total Congress.

---

I don't know, Dems are pretty effective in getting their agenda passed into law despite having a lot more and crazier MTG types. They have a 1-seat majority in the Senate and get everything they want enacted into law. No theatrics. We have a 4 seat majority in the House and, well.......

Dems know how to triangulate. The GOP can't get there because they are offended by the very people they should be using for triangulation.

Has it occurred to you that a pretty conservative speaker with a razor thin majority might appreciate the fact that someone else is bringing heat on the moderates?

---

If they were working on tandem to get an agenda delivered? Yes, I agree would be good. But MTG is attacking Johnson and made a move for removal, requiring Dems to step in. Weakening the Speaker, not the move of a organized move. I actually would be thankful for SOME type of coordinated strategy, even if it failed. It would show some forethought to accomplishing an agenda. Right now, too splintered to get anything done.

Hell, have a retreat and create a strategy on how all fractions can work to deliver something. Pick, I don't care, border, budget, energy, Ukraine, Israel, taxes... I want to see some organized, coordinated, thought process.

---

That's what a caucus is....a retreat to discuss stuff.

REPEATEDLY, you absolve the moderates from any responsibility for the division. It is the moderates who always balk at voting for the platform agenda. That forces the Speaker to move to center and then start whipping the conservatives. Then, predictably, the conservatives start to squawk. You should not have to whip your base. You should have to whip your center. If you're always whipping your base, you're not pushing the platform agenda - which is the whole reason parties have primary elections = to elect representatives who will enact the platform into law.

Every time MTG threatens to remove him, she strengthens his hand with the moderates. It allows him to say to them "hey guys, I need some room here,....remember how it went last time? You could end up with a speaker more conservative than me." And this speaker appears to be doing exactly that. The previous one sure didn't.

GOP has a long tradition of electing leadership from blue/swing districts/states, the theory being that moderate leadership would extend appeal in swing districts. All it did, though, was give leadership positions to people whose worldview was that the GOP should always hide its conservatism in order to survive. Dems do not do that. Dems elect leadership from hard blue states/districts. Pelosi? San Francisco liberal. Jeffries? Member of the Democrat Progressive Caucus (the functional equivalent of the GOP Freedom Caucus).

Fact - MTG is no further right than Jeffries is left.
Yet you only want to beat up on MTG and don't have syllable of complaint about anybody on their side.

---

There you go again. MTG IS NOT THE BASE, she is the fringe Right. Both her a Gaetz's actions of the last 6 months have shown they are not the base. If they were the Base, Johnson would not be Speaker. Gaetz would not have needed a "morphed" rule to remove McCarthy (which he struggled to get done).

Just because you and two or three posters on here like MTG and the Fringe Right message doesn't make them the Base. Look at the recent votes, they are not the votes of a Matt Gaetz/MTG base. Johnson has a much better grasp of the Base than MTG.

Don't mistake a fluke of a messed up election versus the most progressive President ever, as determining the Base. Voting for Trump does not make MAGA the Base. Look at the votes, that is a better indication of the Base, much more Moderate GOP than the 8-15 MAGA squeeky wheel Reps.

---

What you think the fringe right is, is actually the majority of GOP voters.

---

"the arrogance of the moderates"

They think anything to the right of them is kookery to be ignored and if necessary suppressed, rather than harnessed to move and widen the Overton Window.

---

Precisely how fascism grows.

whiterock said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

That's a lot of fallacies to pack into a single post.

Do you think some of those bills were popular with the base of the party? That maybe they got drowned in swampishness, like the effort to tie border funding to funding for Israel and Ukraine?

The caucus and the base are not synonymous......

You just don't like her style. But an enormous swathe of the base does, because they are highly unhappy with the way business is being conducted. As long as a third or more of the GOP base is unhappy with the way a GOP congress operates, there will be loud voices pandering to it. That's politics. You either do what your base wants you to do, or you will hear about it. You are so tolerant of dissonance on other dynamics. Why is this one so hard for you to accept.

Man, I'm in disagreement with her on Ukraine funding. But I can see that my views are losing the argument and that I'm in a minority within the party, that HER views are more reflective of party opinion than mine.

---

She is not an effective lawmaker, she has done nothing but throw moltovs since being there. She has no legislation and just got smacked down by both the Congress and Trump for her Johnson debacle. She may represent an extreme portion of the GOP but. she has not forwarded anything accept win a few extremist fans like yourself and some others. Don't tell me she represents the Base because you like her, similarly don't tell me she is the Whip. She isnt. If she represented the base, she would be in a leadership role and have support. Not just the gang of 8.

---

Bad argument. Most members of House and Senate are not lawmakers. Just do the math. In any given session, there are 600-1200 bills passed. That works out to about 1-2 bills per session, per member. In reality, two thirds of reps get no legislation passed. Lots of factors in that beyond ability (interests, constituency, seniority, committee chairmanship power, affiliated with party in/out of power, etc.....). Data from the 117th:
https://www.govtrack.us/congress/members/report-cards/2022/house/bills-enacted-ti
(note disclaimer in orange box).

152 reps = 0 bills
115 reps = 1 bill
83 reps = 2 bills
42 = 3
17 = 4
10 = 5
7 = 6
3 = 7
2 = 8
3 = 9
1 = 11
1 = 13

Debate on the bills is as important as the drafting of them, and on that score, she is quite effective. She focuses attention on legislation of interest to most Republicans. And on that score, her views on most issues are squarely in the mainstream of the GOP, majoritarian stuff. It's her style you don't like. But an awful lot of other people do. Cheerleading for/against legislation is an important part of the job, and she's very good at it for her constituencies.

That part in bold is really silly. The fundamental dynamic we're talking about is that GOP leadership has traditionally NOT represented well the views of the base.....that the reason we have the Freedom Caucus in the first place- to hold moderate leadership accountable for not pushing hard enough on the platform agenda. And then there's just your lack of understanding of how the House works. Leadership traditionally goes to reps who raise the most money. There are big chalkboards up 24/7, real-time standings on fundraising leaders. Relatively few districts have enough fundraising base to support it's own congressional election. So that fundraising inevitably comes from places like mega-donors, industry lobbyists, interest PACs across the spectrum, etc.... Very hard to make leadership with small donors from the base. You have to take your campaign nationwide and make news breaking glass. To make it to leadership, you have to take the swampy route....raising from all the special interest PACs, most of which are not part of the conservative movement.

Dude, if we had conservative legislation actually getting passed, there'd be no oxygen for a Freedom Caucus.

---

Tell you what, you are right. MTG is the Base. She is a stellar Congresswoman. Her positions will save the Nation. She is the Whip and her job is not to move Legislation or create laws. Ok? You are right. You convinced me. Long Live MTG...

---

Undoubtedly the leader of the GOP congressional delegation and she represents the majority of the Republican Party under Trump.

---

We are good. You only want to hear how right you are. So, you are right. If you are going to defend MTG as a good, responsible and sane Legislature than you are no better than the Dems pushing the Squad. There is no need to talk. That says it all. You are MAGA through and through and really don't want to discuss positions or the total Congress.

---

I don't know, Dems are pretty effective in getting their agenda passed into law despite having a lot more and crazier MTG types. They have a 1-seat majority in the Senate and get everything they want enacted into law. No theatrics. We have a 4 seat majority in the House and, well.......

Dems know how to triangulate. The GOP can't get there because they are offended by the very people they should be using for triangulation.

Has it occurred to you that a pretty conservative speaker with a razor thin majority might appreciate the fact that someone else is bringing heat on the moderates?

---

If they were working on tandem to get an agenda delivered? Yes, I agree would be good. But MTG is attacking Johnson and made a move for removal, requiring Dems to step in. Weakening the Speaker, not the move of a organized move. I actually would be thankful for SOME type of coordinated strategy, even if it failed. It would show some forethought to accomplishing an agenda. Right now, too splintered to get anything done.

Hell, have a retreat and create a strategy on how all fractions can work to deliver something. Pick, I don't care, border, budget, energy, Ukraine, Israel, taxes... I want to see some organized, coordinated, thought process.

---

That's what a caucus is....a retreat to discuss stuff.

REPEATEDLY, you absolve the moderates from any responsibility for the division. It is the moderates who always balk at voting for the platform agenda. That forces the Speaker to move to center and then start whipping the conservatives. Then, predictably, the conservatives start to squawk. You should not have to whip your base. You should have to whip your center. If you're always whipping your base, you're not pushing the platform agenda - which is the whole reason parties have primary elections = to elect representatives who will enact the platform into law.

Every time MTG threatens to remove him, she strengthens his hand with the moderates. It allows him to say to them "hey guys, I need some room here,....remember how it went last time? You could end up with a speaker more conservative than me." And this speaker appears to be doing exactly that. The previous one sure didn't.

GOP has a long tradition of electing leadership from blue/swing districts/states, the theory being that moderate leadership would extend appeal in swing districts. All it did, though, was give leadership positions to people whose worldview was that the GOP should always hide its conservatism in order to survive. Dems do not do that. Dems elect leadership from hard blue states/districts. Pelosi? San Francisco liberal. Jeffries? Member of the Democrat Progressive Caucus (the functional equivalent of the GOP Freedom Caucus).

Fact - MTG is no further right than Jeffries is left.
Yet you only want to beat up on MTG and don't have syllable of complaint about anybody on their side.

---

There you go again. MTG IS NOT THE BASE, she is the fringe Right. Both her a Gaetz's actions of the last 6 months have shown they are not the base. If they were the Base, Johnson would not be Speaker. Gaetz would not have needed a "morphed" rule to remove McCarthy (which he struggled to get done).

Just because you and two or three posters on here like MTG and the Fringe Right message doesn't make them the Base. Look at the recent votes, they are not the votes of a Matt Gaetz/MTG base. Johnson has a much better grasp of the Base than MTG.

Don't mistake a fluke of a messed up election versus the most progressive President ever, as determining the Base. Voting for Trump does not make MAGA the Base. Look at the votes, that is a better indication of the Base, much more Moderate GOP than the 8-15 MAGA squeeky wheel Reps.

---

What you think the fringe right is, is actually the majority of GOP voters.

---

"the arrogance of the moderates"

They think anything to the right of them is kookery to be ignored and if necessary suppressed, rather than harnessed to move and widen the Overton Window.

---

Not not anything. Just whack jobs like MTG and Gaetz. Johnson and his group are fine. Most of the GOP is fine. MTG, Broebert, Gaetz and the burn it down if they don't give us what we want crowd, not so much.

FLBear5630 said:

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Osodecentx said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

look at the implicit premise of your measure of effectiveness: number of bills passed.

Is that really the only yardstick (or even the one that matters most)?
Doesn't a consistent voting record have value?
Is there no benefit to OPPOSING things in Congress?
is there no benefit to elected officials using bully pulpit to organize public sentiment?

She's a rabble rousing Freedom Caucus member seeking to force the GOP to be more attentive to the platform agenda. So was RDS. They had virtually identical voting records.

So you can criticize her eloquence and her choice of where to draw the battle lines. But she's hardly outside the mainstream with her views/votes. A good leaders can figure out ways to put her combatitiveness to good use. Democrats do it. Why can't we?

(hint: you say she "undermines the majority" yet it is the moderates who are largely responsible for MTG. If you would just vote for the platform agenda, there'd be no oxygen for the Freedom Caucus to exist.)

---

The problem I see is that the Speaker sets the Agenda.
The party Platform IS the agenda; the Speaker is supposed to execute a plan to enact the platform.
The Whip does what it takes to ensure that the Speaker gets the Votes.
If the whip is whipping the base rather than the moderates, that is a sign the Speaker is NOT working the platform. You don't have to whip the base to pass the platform. You have to whip moderates to pass the platform......
The Freedom Caucus and MTG working within the structure is fine, the Grandstanding playing the media to force their hand? No, that just empowers the Dems.
No, it empowers the platform agenda.

The biggest issue I have with the Freedom Caucus is they do not care about anything but their narrow view.
It's called "the platform." The reality of how the Govt runs, keeping the Nation operating or god forbid moving the Nation forward vs Russia, China and Iran is non-existent.
They were elected to enact the platform into law, not empower the other side to get its own platform enacted into law, or to protect things that are at odds with platform agendas.

The Freedom Caucus thinks it is the 94 Revolution and T-Party on Steroids.
Why shouldn't it be? We've got a frickin' disaster not because of a lack of compromise but because Democrats passed bad law!
What they fail to realize was that both those movements attacked Dem Administrations. TThe Freedom Caucus that will shut down the Govt and burn it down if it doesn't get its way and is attacking its own Party! .....to stop their own party from helping Democrats enact bad policy! Stopping bad stuff from getting enacted into law is a core job requirement of a Congresscritter. Democrats do a very good job of it against us. Why should we not return the favor?

She and her cronies don't work within the GOP system and are willing to attack the Speaker when THEY have power!
Why shouldn't a speaker who breaks promises to his/her caucus be attacked? Exactly what does it look like when the speaker whips the base too hard? Isn't the base allowed to bite back?
MTG and the Freedom Caucus is a dream come true for the Dems. They love her taking the knees out from under the Speaker and letting the Dems "save" him. She and her group are idiots that do more damage than good. Voting is one part of being a Congressperson.
Dems are scared of the FC. "if you're taking flack, you're over the target....." Remember that one?

---

You are just making an appeal to teamwork and civility, which do have a time and place, just not when a majority of Republicans are demanding better (more conservative) leadership.

---

You also keep referring to MTG as the Whip, she is not. I have no problem with the Whip doing their job, most of the time they operate behind the scenes. I can't think of a well known Whip since Gingrich.

You also keep referring to MTG and MAGA as the "base", we disagree. The whole MAGA/Gang of 8 are on the fringe, not the base. That is why Gaetz was only able to get those 8 votes, a quirky House rule (which will never get passed again) and the small number of GOP Majority is what allowed it to happen. You keep acting like it was "base" movement, it was not. It was 8 of over 279. That is not the base... MTG HAD LESS. A quirk of rule making that got passed is the only reason this small minority of the GOP has any voice at all. You are mistaken that quirk for the base. Without that rule, you hear NOTHING from this crowd but MTG's shrill *****ing and Gaetz's scheming.

---

Every member of the caucus will whip what they can. Some do it behind the scenes. Some for the cameras. Each method has its time and place. In that context, the FC exist almost exclusive as a bulwark AGAINST whipping by moderate Speakers, to push back and force more accommodation of platform objectives.

The vote total did not reflect what you presume. There are dozens of members who shared exactly MTG's views on the Speaker's actions. They just didn't want to have another protracted speaker fight. MTG, if you remember, stuck with McCarthy all the way to the end. She didn't do that because she agreed with McCarthy on issues. She did it because she had carved out a role for herself under McCarthy and didn't see a similar space available under a new speaker.

You keep avoiding the obvious - if you want the FC to go away, just keep putting platform agenda items up for votes and quit making compromises that hand Democrats their platform agenda at the expense of ours. I'm perfectly happy with a Congress that does nothing except shooting down every bill the Democrats propose. We'd be way better off than having all those expensive compromises we keep getting that gut the country in so many ways. That's what Dems do. Just put their platform agenda up for a vote. Why can't we do that?

---

You keep going to the "presume", "not what it looks like", etc... The bottomline is that there are too many factions only concerned with their slice of the pie.
It has always been so and always will be. It's easy to work with your own base. You know what they want and broadly agree with them. So if you find yourself whipping them....isn't that a sign something is wrong with the bill you're whipping them about?

At least at the GOP should find items THEY agree on and put together an Agenda. Hell, the Border that is a no brainer...

We do agree on your last point, they need to put the Agenda to a vote. That is where the strength of the majority can work.

---

We do agree on and put together an agenda. We do it every 2 years at Party Conventions = write a platform. We do it every 4 years at a National Convention. Weeks writing rules for the convention(s) before the first gavel falls. Months arguing about platform planks before the first gavel falls. And then, the platform is passed at a national convention, with strong influence from the Presidential nominee (who gets nearly every thing they want). So we do have an agenda. The only question is, will our elected officials execute on it. Far too often, they don't. Ergo the rise of the FC.

The FC exists solely due to broad dissatisfaction with GOP leadership. If GOP leadership is conservative enough, the FC will have no oxygen to survive.

---

Well, as we expected, it boils down to that. That we do agree on that. We have a Platform, execute it.

---

---

Here it is, 2020 GOP Platform. Pick one that the whole GOP will get behind and push through...

JOBS

• Create 10 Million New Jobs in 10 Months
• Create 1 Million New Small Businesses
• Cut Taxes to Boost Take-Home Pay and Keep Jobs in America
• Enact Fair Trade Deals that Protect American Jobs
• 'Made in America' Tax Credits
• Expand Opportunity Zones
• Continue Deregulatory Agenda for Energy Independence

ERADICATE COVID-19

• Develop a Vaccine by The End Of 2020
• Return to Normal in 2021
• Make All Critical Medicines and Supplies for Healthcare Workers in The United States
• Refill Stockpiles and Prepare for Future Pandemics

END OUR RELIANCE ON CHINA

• Bring Back 1 Million Manufacturing Jobs from China
• Tax Credits for Companies that Bring Back Jobs from China
• Allow 100% Expensing Deductions for Essential Industries like Pharmaceuticals and Robotics who Bring *Back their Manufacturing to the United States
• No Federal Contracts for Companies who Outsource to China
• Hold China Fully Accountable for Allowing the Virus to Spread around the World

HEALTHCARE

• Cut Prescription Drug Prices
• Put Patients and Doctors Back in Charge of our Healthcare System
• Lower Healthcare Insurance Premiums
• End Surprise Billing
• Cover All Pre-Existing Conditions
• Protect Social Security and Medicare
• Protect Our Veterans and Provide World-Class Healthcare and Services

EDUCATION

• Provide School Choice to Every Child in America
• Teach American Exceptionalism

DRAIN THE SWAMP

• Pass Congressional Term Limits
• End Bureaucratic Government Bullying of U.S. Citizens and Small Businesses
• Expose Washington's Money Trail and Delegate Powers Back to People and States
• Drain the Globalist Swamp by Taking on International Organizations That Hurt American Citizens

DEFEND OUR POLICE

• Fully Fund and Hire More Police and Law Enforcement Officers
• Increase Criminal Penalties for Assaults on Law Enforcement Officers
• Prosecute Drive-By Shootings as Acts of Domestic Terrorism
• Bring Violent Extremist Groups Like ANTIFA to Justice
• End Cashless Bail and Keep Dangerous Criminals Locked Up until Trial

END ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION AND PROTECT AMERICAN WORKERS

• Block Illegal Immigrants from Becoming Eligible for Taxpayer-Funded Welfare, Healthcare, and Free College Tuition
• Mandatory Deportation for Non-Citizen Gang Members
• Dismantle Human Trafficking Networks
• End Sanctuary Cities to Restore our Neighborhoods and Protect our Families
• Prohibit American Companies from Replacing United States Citizens with Lower-Cost Foreign Workers
• Require New Immigrants to Be Able to Support Themselves Financially

INNOVATE FOR THE FUTURE

• Launch Space Force, Establish Permanent Manned Presence on The Moon and Send the First Manned Mission to Mars
• Build the World's Greatest Infrastructure System
• Win the Race to 5G and Establish a National High-Speed Wireless Internet Network
• Continue to Lead the World in Access to the Cleanest Drinking Water and Cleanest Air
• Partner with Other Nations to Clean Up our Planet's Oceans

AMERICA FIRST FOREIGN POLICY

• Stop Endless Wars and Bring Our Troops Home
• Get Allies to Pay their Fair Share
• Maintain and Expand America's Unrivaled Military Strength
• Wipe Out Global Terrorists Who Threaten to Harm Americans
• Build a Great Cybersecurity Defense System and Missile Defense System

DEFEND AMERICAN VALUES

• Continue nominating constitutionalist Supreme Court and lower court judges
• Protect unborn life through every means available
• Defend the freedoms of religious believers and organizations
• Support the exercise of Second Amendment rights[url=https://ballotpedia.org/The_Republican_Party_Platform,_2020#cite_note-quotedisclaimer-7][7][/url]

"

---

That is a summary
Do you have the actual words?

---

I don't need to be picky, I know attorneys like that, but I am good with an idea. Pick one, show the GOP can come together and push it through...

---

Should Texas GOP push this through?


To be elected to state office, a candidate must win not only a majority of votes, but also more than half of Texas's 254 counties. Democrats in Texas are concentrated in a few urban areas, while Republicans are spread across the map. This system would effectively mean Democrats would be shut out forever.

Osodecentx said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

look at the implicit premise of your measure of effectiveness: number of bills passed.

Is that really the only yardstick (or even the one that matters most)?
Doesn't a consistent voting record have value?
Is there no benefit to OPPOSING things in Congress?
is there no benefit to elected officials using bully pulpit to organize public sentiment?

She's a rabble rousing Freedom Caucus member seeking to force the GOP to be more attentive to the platform agenda. So was RDS. They had virtually identical voting records.

So you can criticize her eloquence and her choice of where to draw the battle lines. But she's hardly outside the mainstream with her views/votes. A good leaders can figure out ways to put her combatitiveness to good use. Democrats do it. Why can't we?

(hint: you say she "undermines the majority" yet it is the moderates who are largely responsible for MTG. If you would just vote for the platform agenda, there'd be no oxygen for the Freedom Caucus to exist.)

---

The problem I see is that the Speaker sets the Agenda.
The party Platform IS the agenda; the Speaker is supposed to execute a plan to enact the platform.
The Whip does what it takes to ensure that the Speaker gets the Votes.
If the whip is whipping the base rather than the moderates, that is a sign the Speaker is NOT working the platform. You don't have to whip the base to pass the platform. You have to whip moderates to pass the platform......
The Freedom Caucus and MTG working within the structure is fine, the Grandstanding playing the media to force their hand? No, that just empowers the Dems.
No, it empowers the platform agenda.

The biggest issue I have with the Freedom Caucus is they do not care about anything but their narrow view.
It's called "the platform." The reality of how the Govt runs, keeping the Nation operating or god forbid moving the Nation forward vs Russia, China and Iran is non-existent.
They were elected to enact the platform into law, not empower the other side to get its own platform enacted into law, or to protect things that are at odds with platform agendas.

The Freedom Caucus thinks it is the 94 Revolution and T-Party on Steroids.
Why shouldn't it be? We've got a frickin' disaster not because of a lack of compromise but because Democrats passed bad law!
What they fail to realize was that both those movements attacked Dem Administrations. TThe Freedom Caucus that will shut down the Govt and burn it down if it doesn't get its way and is attacking its own Party! .....to stop their own party from helping Democrats enact bad policy! Stopping bad stuff from getting enacted into law is a core job requirement of a Congresscritter. Democrats do a very good job of it against us. Why should we not return the favor?

She and her cronies don't work within the GOP system and are willing to attack the Speaker when THEY have power!
Why shouldn't a speaker who breaks promises to his/her caucus be attacked? Exactly what does it look like when the speaker whips the base too hard? Isn't the base allowed to bite back?
MTG and the Freedom Caucus is a dream come true for the Dems. They love her taking the knees out from under the Speaker and letting the Dems "save" him. She and her group are idiots that do more damage than good. Voting is one part of being a Congressperson.
Dems are scared of the FC. "if you're taking flack, you're over the target....." Remember that one?

---

You are just making an appeal to teamwork and civility, which do have a time and place, just not when a majority of Republicans are demanding better (more conservative) leadership.

---

You also keep referring to MTG as the Whip, she is not. I have no problem with the Whip doing their job, most of the time they operate behind the scenes. I can't think of a well known Whip since Gingrich.

You also keep referring to MTG and MAGA as the "base", we disagree. The whole MAGA/Gang of 8 are on the fringe, not the base. That is why Gaetz was only able to get those 8 votes, a quirky House rule (which will never get passed again) and the small number of GOP Majority is what allowed it to happen. You keep acting like it was "base" movement, it was not. It was 8 of over 279. That is not the base... MTG HAD LESS. A quirk of rule making that got passed is the only reason this small minority of the GOP has any voice at all. You are mistaken that quirk for the base. Without that rule, you hear NOTHING from this crowd but MTG's shrill *****ing and Gaetz's scheming.

---

Every member of the caucus will whip what they can. Some do it behind the scenes. Some for the cameras. Each method has its time and place. In that context, the FC exist almost exclusive as a bulwark AGAINST whipping by moderate Speakers, to push back and force more accommodation of platform objectives.

The vote total did not reflect what you presume. There are dozens of members who shared exactly MTG's views on the Speaker's actions. They just didn't want to have another protracted speaker fight. MTG, if you remember, stuck with McCarthy all the way to the end. She didn't do that because she agreed with McCarthy on issues. She did it because she had carved out a role for herself under McCarthy and didn't see a similar space available under a new speaker.

You keep avoiding the obvious - if you want the FC to go away, just keep putting platform agenda items up for votes and quit making compromises that hand Democrats their platform agenda at the expense of ours. I'm perfectly happy with a Congress that does nothing except shooting down every bill the Democrats propose. We'd be way better off than having all those expensive compromises we keep getting that gut the country in so many ways. That's what Dems do. Just put their platform agenda up for a vote. Why can't we do that?

---

You keep going to the "presume", "not what it looks like", etc... The bottomline is that there are too many factions only concerned with their slice of the pie.
It has always been so and always will be. It's easy to work with your own base. You know what they want and broadly agree with them. So if you find yourself whipping them....isn't that a sign something is wrong with the bill you're whipping them about?

At least at the GOP should find items THEY agree on and put together an Agenda. Hell, the Border that is a no brainer...

We do agree on your last point, they need to put the Agenda to a vote. That is where the strength of the majority can work.

---

We do agree on and put together an agenda. We do it every 2 years at Party Conventions = write a platform. We do it every 4 years at a National Convention. Weeks writing rules for the convention(s) before the first gavel falls. Months arguing about platform planks before the first gavel falls. And then, the platform is passed at a national convention, with strong influence from the Presidential nominee (who gets nearly every thing they want). So we do have an agenda. The only question is, will our elected officials execute on it. Far too often, they don't. Ergo the rise of the FC.

The FC exists solely due to broad dissatisfaction with GOP leadership. If GOP leadership is conservative enough, the FC will have no oxygen to survive.

---

Well, as we expected, it boils down to that. That we do agree on that. We have a Platform, execute it.

---

---

Here it is, 2020 GOP Platform. Pick one that the whole GOP will get behind and push through...

JOBS

• Create 10 Million New Jobs in 10 Months
• Create 1 Million New Small Businesses
• Cut Taxes to Boost Take-Home Pay and Keep Jobs in America
• Enact Fair Trade Deals that Protect American Jobs
• 'Made in America' Tax Credits
• Expand Opportunity Zones
• Continue Deregulatory Agenda for Energy Independence

ERADICATE COVID-19

• Develop a Vaccine by The End Of 2020
• Return to Normal in 2021
• Make All Critical Medicines and Supplies for Healthcare Workers in The United States
• Refill Stockpiles and Prepare for Future Pandemics

END OUR RELIANCE ON CHINA

• Bring Back 1 Million Manufacturing Jobs from China
• Tax Credits for Companies that Bring Back Jobs from China
• Allow 100% Expensing Deductions for Essential Industries like Pharmaceuticals and Robotics who Bring *Back their Manufacturing to the United States
• No Federal Contracts for Companies who Outsource to China
• Hold China Fully Accountable for Allowing the Virus to Spread around the World

HEALTHCARE

• Cut Prescription Drug Prices
• Put Patients and Doctors Back in Charge of our Healthcare System
• Lower Healthcare Insurance Premiums
• End Surprise Billing
• Cover All Pre-Existing Conditions
• Protect Social Security and Medicare
• Protect Our Veterans and Provide World-Class Healthcare and Services

EDUCATION

• Provide School Choice to Every Child in America
• Teach American Exceptionalism

DRAIN THE SWAMP

• Pass Congressional Term Limits
• End Bureaucratic Government Bullying of U.S. Citizens and Small Businesses
• Expose Washington's Money Trail and Delegate Powers Back to People and States
• Drain the Globalist Swamp by Taking on International Organizations That Hurt American Citizens

DEFEND OUR POLICE

• Fully Fund and Hire More Police and Law Enforcement Officers
• Increase Criminal Penalties for Assaults on Law Enforcement Officers
• Prosecute Drive-By Shootings as Acts of Domestic Terrorism
• Bring Violent Extremist Groups Like ANTIFA to Justice
• End Cashless Bail and Keep Dangerous Criminals Locked Up until Trial

END ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION AND PROTECT AMERICAN WORKERS

• Block Illegal Immigrants from Becoming Eligible for Taxpayer-Funded Welfare, Healthcare, and Free College Tuition
• Mandatory Deportation for Non-Citizen Gang Members
• Dismantle Human Trafficking Networks
• End Sanctuary Cities to Restore our Neighborhoods and Protect our Families
• Prohibit American Companies from Replacing United States Citizens with Lower-Cost Foreign Workers
• Require New Immigrants to Be Able to Support Themselves Financially

INNOVATE FOR THE FUTURE

• Launch Space Force, Establish Permanent Manned Presence on The Moon and Send the First Manned Mission to Mars
• Build the World's Greatest Infrastructure System
• Win the Race to 5G and Establish a National High-Speed Wireless Internet Network
• Continue to Lead the World in Access to the Cleanest Drinking Water and Cleanest Air
• Partner with Other Nations to Clean Up our Planet's Oceans

AMERICA FIRST FOREIGN POLICY

• Stop Endless Wars and Bring Our Troops Home
• Get Allies to Pay their Fair Share
• Maintain and Expand America's Unrivaled Military Strength
• Wipe Out Global Terrorists Who Threaten to Harm Americans
• Build a Great Cybersecurity Defense System and Missile Defense System

DEFEND AMERICAN VALUES

• Continue nominating constitutionalist Supreme Court and lower court judges
• Protect unborn life through every means available
• Defend the freedoms of religious believers and organizations
• Support the exercise of Second Amendment rights[url=https://ballotpedia.org/The_Republican_Party_Platform,_2020#cite_note-quotedisclaimer-7][7][/url]

"

---

That is a summary
Do you have the actual words?

---

I don't need to be picky, I know attorneys like that, but I am good with an idea. Pick one, show the GOP can come together and push it through...

---

Should Texas GOP push this through?


To be elected to state office, a candidate must win not only a majority of votes, but also more than half of Texas's 254 counties. Democrats in Texas are concentrated in a few urban areas, while Republicans are spread across the map. This system would effectively mean Democrats would be shut out forever.

---

Depends, State Senate yes. Representative no.

My logic that Senators represent the whole state. Reps represent a geographic area.

FLBear5630 said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

look at the implicit premise of your measure of effectiveness: number of bills passed.

Is that really the only yardstick (or even the one that matters most)?
Doesn't a consistent voting record have value?
Is there no benefit to OPPOSING things in Congress?
is there no benefit to elected officials using bully pulpit to organize public sentiment?

She's a rabble rousing Freedom Caucus member seeking to force the GOP to be more attentive to the platform agenda. So was RDS. They had virtually identical voting records.

So you can criticize her eloquence and her choice of where to draw the battle lines. But she's hardly outside the mainstream with her views/votes. A good leaders can figure out ways to put her combatitiveness to good use. Democrats do it. Why can't we?

(hint: you say she "undermines the majority" yet it is the moderates who are largely responsible for MTG. If you would just vote for the platform agenda, there'd be no oxygen for the Freedom Caucus to exist.)

---

The problem I see is that the Speaker sets the Agenda.
The party Platform IS the agenda; the Speaker is supposed to execute a plan to enact the platform.
The Whip does what it takes to ensure that the Speaker gets the Votes.
If the whip is whipping the base rather than the moderates, that is a sign the Speaker is NOT working the platform. You don't have to whip the base to pass the platform. You have to whip moderates to pass the platform......
The Freedom Caucus and MTG working within the structure is fine, the Grandstanding playing the media to force their hand? No, that just empowers the Dems.
No, it empowers the platform agenda.

The biggest issue I have with the Freedom Caucus is they do not care about anything but their narrow view.
It's called "the platform." The reality of how the Govt runs, keeping the Nation operating or god forbid moving the Nation forward vs Russia, China and Iran is non-existent.
They were elected to enact the platform into law, not empower the other side to get its own platform enacted into law, or to protect things that are at odds with platform agendas.

The Freedom Caucus thinks it is the 94 Revolution and T-Party on Steroids.
Why shouldn't it be? We've got a frickin' disaster not because of a lack of compromise but because Democrats passed bad law!
What they fail to realize was that both those movements attacked Dem Administrations. TThe Freedom Caucus that will shut down the Govt and burn it down if it doesn't get its way and is attacking its own Party! .....to stop their own party from helping Democrats enact bad policy! Stopping bad stuff from getting enacted into law is a core job requirement of a Congresscritter. Democrats do a very good job of it against us. Why should we not return the favor?

She and her cronies don't work within the GOP system and are willing to attack the Speaker when THEY have power!
Why shouldn't a speaker who breaks promises to his/her caucus be attacked? Exactly what does it look like when the speaker whips the base too hard? Isn't the base allowed to bite back?
MTG and the Freedom Caucus is a dream come true for the Dems. They love her taking the knees out from under the Speaker and letting the Dems "save" him. She and her group are idiots that do more damage than good. Voting is one part of being a Congressperson.
Dems are scared of the FC. "if you're taking flack, you're over the target....." Remember that one?

---

You are just making an appeal to teamwork and civility, which do have a time and place, just not when a majority of Republicans are demanding better (more conservative) leadership.

---

You also keep referring to MTG as the Whip, she is not. I have no problem with the Whip doing their job, most of the time they operate behind the scenes. I can't think of a well known Whip since Gingrich.

You also keep referring to MTG and MAGA as the "base", we disagree. The whole MAGA/Gang of 8 are on the fringe, not the base. That is why Gaetz was only able to get those 8 votes, a quirky House rule (which will never get passed again) and the small number of GOP Majority is what allowed it to happen. You keep acting like it was "base" movement, it was not. It was 8 of over 279. That is not the base... MTG HAD LESS. A quirk of rule making that got passed is the only reason this small minority of the GOP has any voice at all. You are mistaken that quirk for the base. Without that rule, you hear NOTHING from this crowd but MTG's shrill *****ing and Gaetz's scheming.

---

Every member of the caucus will whip what they can. Some do it behind the scenes. Some for the cameras. Each method has its time and place. In that context, the FC exist almost exclusive as a bulwark AGAINST whipping by moderate Speakers, to push back and force more accommodation of platform objectives.

The vote total did not reflect what you presume. There are dozens of members who shared exactly MTG's views on the Speaker's actions. They just didn't want to have another protracted speaker fight. MTG, if you remember, stuck with McCarthy all the way to the end. She didn't do that because she agreed with McCarthy on issues. She did it because she had carved out a role for herself under McCarthy and didn't see a similar space available under a new speaker.

You keep avoiding the obvious - if you want the FC to go away, just keep putting platform agenda items up for votes and quit making compromises that hand Democrats their platform agenda at the expense of ours. I'm perfectly happy with a Congress that does nothing except shooting down every bill the Democrats propose. We'd be way better off than having all those expensive compromises we keep getting that gut the country in so many ways. That's what Dems do. Just put their platform agenda up for a vote. Why can't we do that?

---

You keep going to the "presume", "not what it looks like", etc... The bottomline is that there are too many factions only concerned with their slice of the pie.
It has always been so and always will be. It's easy to work with your own base. You know what they want and broadly agree with them. So if you find yourself whipping them....isn't that a sign something is wrong with the bill you're whipping them about?

At least at the GOP should find items THEY agree on and put together an Agenda. Hell, the Border that is a no brainer...

We do agree on your last point, they need to put the Agenda to a vote. That is where the strength of the majority can work.

---

We do agree on and put together an agenda. We do it every 2 years at Party Conventions = write a platform. We do it every 4 years at a National Convention. Weeks writing rules for the convention(s) before the first gavel falls. Months arguing about platform planks before the first gavel falls. And then, the platform is passed at a national convention, with strong influence from the Presidential nominee (who gets nearly every thing they want). So we do have an agenda. The only question is, will our elected officials execute on it. Far too often, they don't. Ergo the rise of the FC.

The FC exists solely due to broad dissatisfaction with GOP leadership. If GOP leadership is conservative enough, the FC will have no oxygen to survive.

---

Well, as we expected, it boils down to that. That we do agree on that. We have a Platform, execute it.

---

---

Here it is, 2020 GOP Platform. Pick one that the whole GOP will get behind and push through...

JOBS

• Create 10 Million New Jobs in 10 Months
• Create 1 Million New Small Businesses
• Cut Taxes to Boost Take-Home Pay and Keep Jobs in America
• Enact Fair Trade Deals that Protect American Jobs
• 'Made in America' Tax Credits
• Expand Opportunity Zones
• Continue Deregulatory Agenda for Energy Independence

ERADICATE COVID-19

• Develop a Vaccine by The End Of 2020
• Return to Normal in 2021
• Make All Critical Medicines and Supplies for Healthcare Workers in The United States
• Refill Stockpiles and Prepare for Future Pandemics

END OUR RELIANCE ON CHINA

• Bring Back 1 Million Manufacturing Jobs from China
• Tax Credits for Companies that Bring Back Jobs from China
• Allow 100% Expensing Deductions for Essential Industries like Pharmaceuticals and Robotics who Bring *Back their Manufacturing to the United States
• No Federal Contracts for Companies who Outsource to China
• Hold China Fully Accountable for Allowing the Virus to Spread around the World

HEALTHCARE

• Cut Prescription Drug Prices
• Put Patients and Doctors Back in Charge of our Healthcare System
• Lower Healthcare Insurance Premiums
• End Surprise Billing
• Cover All Pre-Existing Conditions
• Protect Social Security and Medicare
• Protect Our Veterans and Provide World-Class Healthcare and Services

EDUCATION

• Provide School Choice to Every Child in America
• Teach American Exceptionalism

DRAIN THE SWAMP

• Pass Congressional Term Limits
• End Bureaucratic Government Bullying of U.S. Citizens and Small Businesses
• Expose Washington's Money Trail and Delegate Powers Back to People and States
• Drain the Globalist Swamp by Taking on International Organizations That Hurt American Citizens

DEFEND OUR POLICE

• Fully Fund and Hire More Police and Law Enforcement Officers
• Increase Criminal Penalties for Assaults on Law Enforcement Officers
• Prosecute Drive-By Shootings as Acts of Domestic Terrorism
• Bring Violent Extremist Groups Like ANTIFA to Justice
• End Cashless Bail and Keep Dangerous Criminals Locked Up until Trial

END ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION AND PROTECT AMERICAN WORKERS

• Block Illegal Immigrants from Becoming Eligible for Taxpayer-Funded Welfare, Healthcare, and Free College Tuition
• Mandatory Deportation for Non-Citizen Gang Members
• Dismantle Human Trafficking Networks
• End Sanctuary Cities to Restore our Neighborhoods and Protect our Families
• Prohibit American Companies from Replacing United States Citizens with Lower-Cost Foreign Workers
• Require New Immigrants to Be Able to Support Themselves Financially

INNOVATE FOR THE FUTURE

• Launch Space Force, Establish Permanent Manned Presence on The Moon and Send the First Manned Mission to Mars
• Build the World's Greatest Infrastructure System
• Win the Race to 5G and Establish a National High-Speed Wireless Internet Network
• Continue to Lead the World in Access to the Cleanest Drinking Water and Cleanest Air
• Partner with Other Nations to Clean Up our Planet's Oceans

AMERICA FIRST FOREIGN POLICY

• Stop Endless Wars and Bring Our Troops Home
• Get Allies to Pay their Fair Share
• Maintain and Expand America's Unrivaled Military Strength
• Wipe Out Global Terrorists Who Threaten to Harm Americans
• Build a Great Cybersecurity Defense System and Missile Defense System

DEFEND AMERICAN VALUES

• Continue nominating constitutionalist Supreme Court and lower court judges
• Protect unborn life through every means available
• Defend the freedoms of religious believers and organizations
• Support the exercise of Second Amendment rights[url=https://ballotpedia.org/The_Republican_Party_Platform,_2020#cite_note-quotedisclaimer-7][7][/url]

"

---

That is a summary
Do you have the actual words?

---

I don't need to be picky, I know attorneys like that, but I am good with an idea. Pick one, show the GOP can come together and push it through...

---

Should Texas GOP push this through?


To be elected to state office, a candidate must win not only a majority of votes, but also more than half of Texas's 254 counties. Democrats in Texas are concentrated in a few urban areas, while Republicans are spread across the map. This system would effectively mean Democrats would be shut out forever.

---

Depends, State Senate yes. Representative no.

My logic that Senators represent the whole state. Reps represent a geographic area.

---

I think you mean US Senate

Wow! You are a Texas Republican

Osodecentx said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

look at the implicit premise of your measure of effectiveness: number of bills passed.

Is that really the only yardstick (or even the one that matters most)?
Doesn't a consistent voting record have value?
Is there no benefit to OPPOSING things in Congress?
is there no benefit to elected officials using bully pulpit to organize public sentiment?

She's a rabble rousing Freedom Caucus member seeking to force the GOP to be more attentive to the platform agenda. So was RDS. They had virtually identical voting records.

So you can criticize her eloquence and her choice of where to draw the battle lines. But she's hardly outside the mainstream with her views/votes. A good leaders can figure out ways to put her combatitiveness to good use. Democrats do it. Why can't we?

(hint: you say she "undermines the majority" yet it is the moderates who are largely responsible for MTG. If you would just vote for the platform agenda, there'd be no oxygen for the Freedom Caucus to exist.)

---

The problem I see is that the Speaker sets the Agenda.
The party Platform IS the agenda; the Speaker is supposed to execute a plan to enact the platform.
The Whip does what it takes to ensure that the Speaker gets the Votes.
If the whip is whipping the base rather than the moderates, that is a sign the Speaker is NOT working the platform. You don't have to whip the base to pass the platform. You have to whip moderates to pass the platform......
The Freedom Caucus and MTG working within the structure is fine, the Grandstanding playing the media to force their hand? No, that just empowers the Dems.
No, it empowers the platform agenda.

The biggest issue I have with the Freedom Caucus is they do not care about anything but their narrow view.
It's called "the platform." The reality of how the Govt runs, keeping the Nation operating or god forbid moving the Nation forward vs Russia, China and Iran is non-existent.
They were elected to enact the platform into law, not empower the other side to get its own platform enacted into law, or to protect things that are at odds with platform agendas.

The Freedom Caucus thinks it is the 94 Revolution and T-Party on Steroids.
Why shouldn't it be? We've got a frickin' disaster not because of a lack of compromise but because Democrats passed bad law!
What they fail to realize was that both those movements attacked Dem Administrations. TThe Freedom Caucus that will shut down the Govt and burn it down if it doesn't get its way and is attacking its own Party! .....to stop their own party from helping Democrats enact bad policy! Stopping bad stuff from getting enacted into law is a core job requirement of a Congresscritter. Democrats do a very good job of it against us. Why should we not return the favor?

She and her cronies don't work within the GOP system and are willing to attack the Speaker when THEY have power!
Why shouldn't a speaker who breaks promises to his/her caucus be attacked? Exactly what does it look like when the speaker whips the base too hard? Isn't the base allowed to bite back?
MTG and the Freedom Caucus is a dream come true for the Dems. They love her taking the knees out from under the Speaker and letting the Dems "save" him. She and her group are idiots that do more damage than good. Voting is one part of being a Congressperson.
Dems are scared of the FC. "if you're taking flack, you're over the target....." Remember that one?

---

You are just making an appeal to teamwork and civility, which do have a time and place, just not when a majority of Republicans are demanding better (more conservative) leadership.

---

You also keep referring to MTG as the Whip, she is not. I have no problem with the Whip doing their job, most of the time they operate behind the scenes. I can't think of a well known Whip since Gingrich.

You also keep referring to MTG and MAGA as the "base", we disagree. The whole MAGA/Gang of 8 are on the fringe, not the base. That is why Gaetz was only able to get those 8 votes, a quirky House rule (which will never get passed again) and the small number of GOP Majority is what allowed it to happen. You keep acting like it was "base" movement, it was not. It was 8 of over 279. That is not the base... MTG HAD LESS. A quirk of rule making that got passed is the only reason this small minority of the GOP has any voice at all. You are mistaken that quirk for the base. Without that rule, you hear NOTHING from this crowd but MTG's shrill *****ing and Gaetz's scheming.

---

Every member of the caucus will whip what they can. Some do it behind the scenes. Some for the cameras. Each method has its time and place. In that context, the FC exist almost exclusive as a bulwark AGAINST whipping by moderate Speakers, to push back and force more accommodation of platform objectives.

The vote total did not reflect what you presume. There are dozens of members who shared exactly MTG's views on the Speaker's actions. They just didn't want to have another protracted speaker fight. MTG, if you remember, stuck with McCarthy all the way to the end. She didn't do that because she agreed with McCarthy on issues. She did it because she had carved out a role for herself under McCarthy and didn't see a similar space available under a new speaker.

You keep avoiding the obvious - if you want the FC to go away, just keep putting platform agenda items up for votes and quit making compromises that hand Democrats their platform agenda at the expense of ours. I'm perfectly happy with a Congress that does nothing except shooting down every bill the Democrats propose. We'd be way better off than having all those expensive compromises we keep getting that gut the country in so many ways. That's what Dems do. Just put their platform agenda up for a vote. Why can't we do that?

---

You keep going to the "presume", "not what it looks like", etc... The bottomline is that there are too many factions only concerned with their slice of the pie.
It has always been so and always will be. It's easy to work with your own base. You know what they want and broadly agree with them. So if you find yourself whipping them....isn't that a sign something is wrong with the bill you're whipping them about?

At least at the GOP should find items THEY agree on and put together an Agenda. Hell, the Border that is a no brainer...

We do agree on your last point, they need to put the Agenda to a vote. That is where the strength of the majority can work.

---

We do agree on and put together an agenda. We do it every 2 years at Party Conventions = write a platform. We do it every 4 years at a National Convention. Weeks writing rules for the convention(s) before the first gavel falls. Months arguing about platform planks before the first gavel falls. And then, the platform is passed at a national convention, with strong influence from the Presidential nominee (who gets nearly every thing they want). So we do have an agenda. The only question is, will our elected officials execute on it. Far too often, they don't. Ergo the rise of the FC.

The FC exists solely due to broad dissatisfaction with GOP leadership. If GOP leadership is conservative enough, the FC will have no oxygen to survive.

---

Well, as we expected, it boils down to that. That we do agree on that. We have a Platform, execute it.

---

---

Here it is, 2020 GOP Platform. Pick one that the whole GOP will get behind and push through...

JOBS

• Create 10 Million New Jobs in 10 Months
• Create 1 Million New Small Businesses
• Cut Taxes to Boost Take-Home Pay and Keep Jobs in America
• Enact Fair Trade Deals that Protect American Jobs
• 'Made in America' Tax Credits
• Expand Opportunity Zones
• Continue Deregulatory Agenda for Energy Independence

ERADICATE COVID-19

• Develop a Vaccine by The End Of 2020
• Return to Normal in 2021
• Make All Critical Medicines and Supplies for Healthcare Workers in The United States
• Refill Stockpiles and Prepare for Future Pandemics

END OUR RELIANCE ON CHINA

• Bring Back 1 Million Manufacturing Jobs from China
• Tax Credits for Companies that Bring Back Jobs from China
• Allow 100% Expensing Deductions for Essential Industries like Pharmaceuticals and Robotics who Bring *Back their Manufacturing to the United States
• No Federal Contracts for Companies who Outsource to China
• Hold China Fully Accountable for Allowing the Virus to Spread around the World

HEALTHCARE

• Cut Prescription Drug Prices
• Put Patients and Doctors Back in Charge of our Healthcare System
• Lower Healthcare Insurance Premiums
• End Surprise Billing
• Cover All Pre-Existing Conditions
• Protect Social Security and Medicare
• Protect Our Veterans and Provide World-Class Healthcare and Services

EDUCATION

• Provide School Choice to Every Child in America
• Teach American Exceptionalism

DRAIN THE SWAMP

• Pass Congressional Term Limits
• End Bureaucratic Government Bullying of U.S. Citizens and Small Businesses
• Expose Washington's Money Trail and Delegate Powers Back to People and States
• Drain the Globalist Swamp by Taking on International Organizations That Hurt American Citizens

DEFEND OUR POLICE

• Fully Fund and Hire More Police and Law Enforcement Officers
• Increase Criminal Penalties for Assaults on Law Enforcement Officers
• Prosecute Drive-By Shootings as Acts of Domestic Terrorism
• Bring Violent Extremist Groups Like ANTIFA to Justice
• End Cashless Bail and Keep Dangerous Criminals Locked Up until Trial

END ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION AND PROTECT AMERICAN WORKERS

• Block Illegal Immigrants from Becoming Eligible for Taxpayer-Funded Welfare, Healthcare, and Free College Tuition
• Mandatory Deportation for Non-Citizen Gang Members
• Dismantle Human Trafficking Networks
• End Sanctuary Cities to Restore our Neighborhoods and Protect our Families
• Prohibit American Companies from Replacing United States Citizens with Lower-Cost Foreign Workers
• Require New Immigrants to Be Able to Support Themselves Financially

INNOVATE FOR THE FUTURE

• Launch Space Force, Establish Permanent Manned Presence on The Moon and Send the First Manned Mission to Mars
• Build the World's Greatest Infrastructure System
• Win the Race to 5G and Establish a National High-Speed Wireless Internet Network
• Continue to Lead the World in Access to the Cleanest Drinking Water and Cleanest Air
• Partner with Other Nations to Clean Up our Planet's Oceans

AMERICA FIRST FOREIGN POLICY

• Stop Endless Wars and Bring Our Troops Home
• Get Allies to Pay their Fair Share
• Maintain and Expand America's Unrivaled Military Strength
• Wipe Out Global Terrorists Who Threaten to Harm Americans
• Build a Great Cybersecurity Defense System and Missile Defense System

DEFEND AMERICAN VALUES

• Continue nominating constitutionalist Supreme Court and lower court judges
• Protect unborn life through every means available
• Defend the freedoms of religious believers and organizations
• Support the exercise of Second Amendment rights[url=https://ballotpedia.org/The_Republican_Party_Platform,_2020#cite_note-quotedisclaimer-7][7][/url]

"

---

That is a summary
Do you have the actual words?

---

I don't need to be picky, I know attorneys like that, but I am good with an idea. Pick one, show the GOP can come together and push it through...

---

Should Texas GOP push this through?


To be elected to state office, a candidate must win not only a majority of votes, but also more than half of Texas's 254 counties. Democrats in Texas are concentrated in a few urban areas, while Republicans are spread across the map. This system would effectively mean Democrats would be shut out forever.

---

Depends, State Senate yes. Representative no.

My logic that Senators represent the whole state. Reps represent a geographic area.

---

I think you mean US Senate

Wow! You are a Texas Republican

---

Sorry, I keep mixing US with Texas.

FLBear5630 said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

look at the implicit premise of your measure of effectiveness: number of bills passed.

Is that really the only yardstick (or even the one that matters most)?
Doesn't a consistent voting record have value?
Is there no benefit to OPPOSING things in Congress?
is there no benefit to elected officials using bully pulpit to organize public sentiment?

She's a rabble rousing Freedom Caucus member seeking to force the GOP to be more attentive to the platform agenda. So was RDS. They had virtually identical voting records.

So you can criticize her eloquence and her choice of where to draw the battle lines. But she's hardly outside the mainstream with her views/votes. A good leaders can figure out ways to put her combatitiveness to good use. Democrats do it. Why can't we?

(hint: you say she "undermines the majority" yet it is the moderates who are largely responsible for MTG. If you would just vote for the platform agenda, there'd be no oxygen for the Freedom Caucus to exist.)

---

The problem I see is that the Speaker sets the Agenda.
The party Platform IS the agenda; the Speaker is supposed to execute a plan to enact the platform.
The Whip does what it takes to ensure that the Speaker gets the Votes.
If the whip is whipping the base rather than the moderates, that is a sign the Speaker is NOT working the platform. You don't have to whip the base to pass the platform. You have to whip moderates to pass the platform......
The Freedom Caucus and MTG working within the structure is fine, the Grandstanding playing the media to force their hand? No, that just empowers the Dems.
No, it empowers the platform agenda.

The biggest issue I have with the Freedom Caucus is they do not care about anything but their narrow view.
It's called "the platform." The reality of how the Govt runs, keeping the Nation operating or god forbid moving the Nation forward vs Russia, China and Iran is non-existent.
They were elected to enact the platform into law, not empower the other side to get its own platform enacted into law, or to protect things that are at odds with platform agendas.

The Freedom Caucus thinks it is the 94 Revolution and T-Party on Steroids.
Why shouldn't it be? We've got a frickin' disaster not because of a lack of compromise but because Democrats passed bad law!
What they fail to realize was that both those movements attacked Dem Administrations. TThe Freedom Caucus that will shut down the Govt and burn it down if it doesn't get its way and is attacking its own Party! .....to stop their own party from helping Democrats enact bad policy! Stopping bad stuff from getting enacted into law is a core job requirement of a Congresscritter. Democrats do a very good job of it against us. Why should we not return the favor?

She and her cronies don't work within the GOP system and are willing to attack the Speaker when THEY have power!
Why shouldn't a speaker who breaks promises to his/her caucus be attacked? Exactly what does it look like when the speaker whips the base too hard? Isn't the base allowed to bite back?
MTG and the Freedom Caucus is a dream come true for the Dems. They love her taking the knees out from under the Speaker and letting the Dems "save" him. She and her group are idiots that do more damage than good. Voting is one part of being a Congressperson.
Dems are scared of the FC. "if you're taking flack, you're over the target....." Remember that one?

---

You are just making an appeal to teamwork and civility, which do have a time and place, just not when a majority of Republicans are demanding better (more conservative) leadership.

---

You also keep referring to MTG as the Whip, she is not. I have no problem with the Whip doing their job, most of the time they operate behind the scenes. I can't think of a well known Whip since Gingrich.

You also keep referring to MTG and MAGA as the "base", we disagree. The whole MAGA/Gang of 8 are on the fringe, not the base. That is why Gaetz was only able to get those 8 votes, a quirky House rule (which will never get passed again) and the small number of GOP Majority is what allowed it to happen. You keep acting like it was "base" movement, it was not. It was 8 of over 279. That is not the base... MTG HAD LESS. A quirk of rule making that got passed is the only reason this small minority of the GOP has any voice at all. You are mistaken that quirk for the base. Without that rule, you hear NOTHING from this crowd but MTG's shrill *****ing and Gaetz's scheming.

---

Every member of the caucus will whip what they can. Some do it behind the scenes. Some for the cameras. Each method has its time and place. In that context, the FC exist almost exclusive as a bulwark AGAINST whipping by moderate Speakers, to push back and force more accommodation of platform objectives.

The vote total did not reflect what you presume. There are dozens of members who shared exactly MTG's views on the Speaker's actions. They just didn't want to have another protracted speaker fight. MTG, if you remember, stuck with McCarthy all the way to the end. She didn't do that because she agreed with McCarthy on issues. She did it because she had carved out a role for herself under McCarthy and didn't see a similar space available under a new speaker.

You keep avoiding the obvious - if you want the FC to go away, just keep putting platform agenda items up for votes and quit making compromises that hand Democrats their platform agenda at the expense of ours. I'm perfectly happy with a Congress that does nothing except shooting down every bill the Democrats propose. We'd be way better off than having all those expensive compromises we keep getting that gut the country in so many ways. That's what Dems do. Just put their platform agenda up for a vote. Why can't we do that?

---

You keep going to the "presume", "not what it looks like", etc... The bottomline is that there are too many factions only concerned with their slice of the pie.
It has always been so and always will be. It's easy to work with your own base. You know what they want and broadly agree with them. So if you find yourself whipping them....isn't that a sign something is wrong with the bill you're whipping them about?

At least at the GOP should find items THEY agree on and put together an Agenda. Hell, the Border that is a no brainer...

We do agree on your last point, they need to put the Agenda to a vote. That is where the strength of the majority can work.

---

We do agree on and put together an agenda. We do it every 2 years at Party Conventions = write a platform. We do it every 4 years at a National Convention. Weeks writing rules for the convention(s) before the first gavel falls. Months arguing about platform planks before the first gavel falls. And then, the platform is passed at a national convention, with strong influence from the Presidential nominee (who gets nearly every thing they want). So we do have an agenda. The only question is, will our elected officials execute on it. Far too often, they don't. Ergo the rise of the FC.

The FC exists solely due to broad dissatisfaction with GOP leadership. If GOP leadership is conservative enough, the FC will have no oxygen to survive.

---

Well, as we expected, it boils down to that. That we do agree on that. We have a Platform, execute it.

---

---

Here it is, 2020 GOP Platform. Pick one that the whole GOP will get behind and push through...

JOBS

• Create 10 Million New Jobs in 10 Months
• Create 1 Million New Small Businesses
• Cut Taxes to Boost Take-Home Pay and Keep Jobs in America
• Enact Fair Trade Deals that Protect American Jobs
• 'Made in America' Tax Credits
• Expand Opportunity Zones
• Continue Deregulatory Agenda for Energy Independence

ERADICATE COVID-19

• Develop a Vaccine by The End Of 2020
• Return to Normal in 2021
• Make All Critical Medicines and Supplies for Healthcare Workers in The United States
• Refill Stockpiles and Prepare for Future Pandemics

END OUR RELIANCE ON CHINA

• Bring Back 1 Million Manufacturing Jobs from China
• Tax Credits for Companies that Bring Back Jobs from China
• Allow 100% Expensing Deductions for Essential Industries like Pharmaceuticals and Robotics who Bring *Back their Manufacturing to the United States
• No Federal Contracts for Companies who Outsource to China
• Hold China Fully Accountable for Allowing the Virus to Spread around the World

HEALTHCARE

• Cut Prescription Drug Prices
• Put Patients and Doctors Back in Charge of our Healthcare System
• Lower Healthcare Insurance Premiums
• End Surprise Billing
• Cover All Pre-Existing Conditions
• Protect Social Security and Medicare
• Protect Our Veterans and Provide World-Class Healthcare and Services

EDUCATION

• Provide School Choice to Every Child in America
• Teach American Exceptionalism

DRAIN THE SWAMP

• Pass Congressional Term Limits
• End Bureaucratic Government Bullying of U.S. Citizens and Small Businesses
• Expose Washington's Money Trail and Delegate Powers Back to People and States
• Drain the Globalist Swamp by Taking on International Organizations That Hurt American Citizens

DEFEND OUR POLICE

• Fully Fund and Hire More Police and Law Enforcement Officers
• Increase Criminal Penalties for Assaults on Law Enforcement Officers
• Prosecute Drive-By Shootings as Acts of Domestic Terrorism
• Bring Violent Extremist Groups Like ANTIFA to Justice
• End Cashless Bail and Keep Dangerous Criminals Locked Up until Trial

END ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION AND PROTECT AMERICAN WORKERS

• Block Illegal Immigrants from Becoming Eligible for Taxpayer-Funded Welfare, Healthcare, and Free College Tuition
• Mandatory Deportation for Non-Citizen Gang Members
• Dismantle Human Trafficking Networks
• End Sanctuary Cities to Restore our Neighborhoods and Protect our Families
• Prohibit American Companies from Replacing United States Citizens with Lower-Cost Foreign Workers
• Require New Immigrants to Be Able to Support Themselves Financially

INNOVATE FOR THE FUTURE

• Launch Space Force, Establish Permanent Manned Presence on The Moon and Send the First Manned Mission to Mars
• Build the World's Greatest Infrastructure System
• Win the Race to 5G and Establish a National High-Speed Wireless Internet Network
• Continue to Lead the World in Access to the Cleanest Drinking Water and Cleanest Air
• Partner with Other Nations to Clean Up our Planet's Oceans

AMERICA FIRST FOREIGN POLICY

• Stop Endless Wars and Bring Our Troops Home
• Get Allies to Pay their Fair Share
• Maintain and Expand America's Unrivaled Military Strength
• Wipe Out Global Terrorists Who Threaten to Harm Americans
• Build a Great Cybersecurity Defense System and Missile Defense System

DEFEND AMERICAN VALUES

• Continue nominating constitutionalist Supreme Court and lower court judges
• Protect unborn life through every means available
• Defend the freedoms of religious believers and organizations
• Support the exercise of Second Amendment rights[url=https://ballotpedia.org/The_Republican_Party_Platform,_2020#cite_note-quotedisclaimer-7][7][/url]

"

---

That is a summary
Do you have the actual words?

---

I don't need to be picky, I know attorneys like that, but I am good with an idea. Pick one, show the GOP can come together and push it through...

---

Should Texas GOP push this through?


To be elected to state office, a candidate must win not only a majority of votes, but also more than half of Texas's 254 counties. Democrats in Texas are concentrated in a few urban areas, while Republicans are spread across the map. This system would effectively mean Democrats would be shut out forever.

---

Depends, State Senate yes. Representative no.

My logic that Senators represent the whole state. Reps represent a geographic area.

---

I think you mean US Senate

Wow! You are a Texas Republican

---

Sorry, I keep mixing US with Texas.

---

No problem. What do you think of this plank in the Texas Republican platform?

To be elected to state office, a candidate must win not only a majority of votes, but also more than half of Texas's 254 counties. Democrats in Texas are concentrated in a few urban areas, while Republicans are spread across the map. This system would effectively mean Democrats would be shut out forever.

Osodecentx said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

look at the implicit premise of your measure of effectiveness: number of bills passed.

Is that really the only yardstick (or even the one that matters most)?
Doesn't a consistent voting record have value?
Is there no benefit to OPPOSING things in Congress?
is there no benefit to elected officials using bully pulpit to organize public sentiment?

She's a rabble rousing Freedom Caucus member seeking to force the GOP to be more attentive to the platform agenda. So was RDS. They had virtually identical voting records.

So you can criticize her eloquence and her choice of where to draw the battle lines. But she's hardly outside the mainstream with her views/votes. A good leaders can figure out ways to put her combatitiveness to good use. Democrats do it. Why can't we?

(hint: you say she "undermines the majority" yet it is the moderates who are largely responsible for MTG. If you would just vote for the platform agenda, there'd be no oxygen for the Freedom Caucus to exist.)

---

The problem I see is that the Speaker sets the Agenda.
The party Platform IS the agenda; the Speaker is supposed to execute a plan to enact the platform.
The Whip does what it takes to ensure that the Speaker gets the Votes.
If the whip is whipping the base rather than the moderates, that is a sign the Speaker is NOT working the platform. You don't have to whip the base to pass the platform. You have to whip moderates to pass the platform......
The Freedom Caucus and MTG working within the structure is fine, the Grandstanding playing the media to force their hand? No, that just empowers the Dems.
No, it empowers the platform agenda.

The biggest issue I have with the Freedom Caucus is they do not care about anything but their narrow view.
It's called "the platform." The reality of how the Govt runs, keeping the Nation operating or god forbid moving the Nation forward vs Russia, China and Iran is non-existent.
They were elected to enact the platform into law, not empower the other side to get its own platform enacted into law, or to protect things that are at odds with platform agendas.

The Freedom Caucus thinks it is the 94 Revolution and T-Party on Steroids.
Why shouldn't it be? We've got a frickin' disaster not because of a lack of compromise but because Democrats passed bad law!
What they fail to realize was that both those movements attacked Dem Administrations. TThe Freedom Caucus that will shut down the Govt and burn it down if it doesn't get its way and is attacking its own Party! .....to stop their own party from helping Democrats enact bad policy! Stopping bad stuff from getting enacted into law is a core job requirement of a Congresscritter. Democrats do a very good job of it against us. Why should we not return the favor?

She and her cronies don't work within the GOP system and are willing to attack the Speaker when THEY have power!
Why shouldn't a speaker who breaks promises to his/her caucus be attacked? Exactly what does it look like when the speaker whips the base too hard? Isn't the base allowed to bite back?
MTG and the Freedom Caucus is a dream come true for the Dems. They love her taking the knees out from under the Speaker and letting the Dems "save" him. She and her group are idiots that do more damage than good. Voting is one part of being a Congressperson.
Dems are scared of the FC. "if you're taking flack, you're over the target....." Remember that one?

---

You are just making an appeal to teamwork and civility, which do have a time and place, just not when a majority of Republicans are demanding better (more conservative) leadership.

---

You also keep referring to MTG as the Whip, she is not. I have no problem with the Whip doing their job, most of the time they operate behind the scenes. I can't think of a well known Whip since Gingrich.

You also keep referring to MTG and MAGA as the "base", we disagree. The whole MAGA/Gang of 8 are on the fringe, not the base. That is why Gaetz was only able to get those 8 votes, a quirky House rule (which will never get passed again) and the small number of GOP Majority is what allowed it to happen. You keep acting like it was "base" movement, it was not. It was 8 of over 279. That is not the base... MTG HAD LESS. A quirk of rule making that got passed is the only reason this small minority of the GOP has any voice at all. You are mistaken that quirk for the base. Without that rule, you hear NOTHING from this crowd but MTG's shrill *****ing and Gaetz's scheming.

---

Every member of the caucus will whip what they can. Some do it behind the scenes. Some for the cameras. Each method has its time and place. In that context, the FC exist almost exclusive as a bulwark AGAINST whipping by moderate Speakers, to push back and force more accommodation of platform objectives.

The vote total did not reflect what you presume. There are dozens of members who shared exactly MTG's views on the Speaker's actions. They just didn't want to have another protracted speaker fight. MTG, if you remember, stuck with McCarthy all the way to the end. She didn't do that because she agreed with McCarthy on issues. She did it because she had carved out a role for herself under McCarthy and didn't see a similar space available under a new speaker.

You keep avoiding the obvious - if you want the FC to go away, just keep putting platform agenda items up for votes and quit making compromises that hand Democrats their platform agenda at the expense of ours. I'm perfectly happy with a Congress that does nothing except shooting down every bill the Democrats propose. We'd be way better off than having all those expensive compromises we keep getting that gut the country in so many ways. That's what Dems do. Just put their platform agenda up for a vote. Why can't we do that?

---

You keep going to the "presume", "not what it looks like", etc... The bottomline is that there are too many factions only concerned with their slice of the pie.
It has always been so and always will be. It's easy to work with your own base. You know what they want and broadly agree with them. So if you find yourself whipping them....isn't that a sign something is wrong with the bill you're whipping them about?

At least at the GOP should find items THEY agree on and put together an Agenda. Hell, the Border that is a no brainer...

We do agree on your last point, they need to put the Agenda to a vote. That is where the strength of the majority can work.

---

We do agree on and put together an agenda. We do it every 2 years at Party Conventions = write a platform. We do it every 4 years at a National Convention. Weeks writing rules for the convention(s) before the first gavel falls. Months arguing about platform planks before the first gavel falls. And then, the platform is passed at a national convention, with strong influence from the Presidential nominee (who gets nearly every thing they want). So we do have an agenda. The only question is, will our elected officials execute on it. Far too often, they don't. Ergo the rise of the FC.

The FC exists solely due to broad dissatisfaction with GOP leadership. If GOP leadership is conservative enough, the FC will have no oxygen to survive.

---

Well, as we expected, it boils down to that. That we do agree on that. We have a Platform, execute it.

---

---

Here it is, 2020 GOP Platform. Pick one that the whole GOP will get behind and push through...

JOBS

• Create 10 Million New Jobs in 10 Months
• Create 1 Million New Small Businesses
• Cut Taxes to Boost Take-Home Pay and Keep Jobs in America
• Enact Fair Trade Deals that Protect American Jobs
• 'Made in America' Tax Credits
• Expand Opportunity Zones
• Continue Deregulatory Agenda for Energy Independence

ERADICATE COVID-19

• Develop a Vaccine by The End Of 2020
• Return to Normal in 2021
• Make All Critical Medicines and Supplies for Healthcare Workers in The United States
• Refill Stockpiles and Prepare for Future Pandemics

END OUR RELIANCE ON CHINA

• Bring Back 1 Million Manufacturing Jobs from China
• Tax Credits for Companies that Bring Back Jobs from China
• Allow 100% Expensing Deductions for Essential Industries like Pharmaceuticals and Robotics who Bring *Back their Manufacturing to the United States
• No Federal Contracts for Companies who Outsource to China
• Hold China Fully Accountable for Allowing the Virus to Spread around the World

HEALTHCARE

• Cut Prescription Drug Prices
• Put Patients and Doctors Back in Charge of our Healthcare System
• Lower Healthcare Insurance Premiums
• End Surprise Billing
• Cover All Pre-Existing Conditions
• Protect Social Security and Medicare
• Protect Our Veterans and Provide World-Class Healthcare and Services

EDUCATION

• Provide School Choice to Every Child in America
• Teach American Exceptionalism

DRAIN THE SWAMP

• Pass Congressional Term Limits
• End Bureaucratic Government Bullying of U.S. Citizens and Small Businesses
• Expose Washington's Money Trail and Delegate Powers Back to People and States
• Drain the Globalist Swamp by Taking on International Organizations That Hurt American Citizens

DEFEND OUR POLICE

• Fully Fund and Hire More Police and Law Enforcement Officers
• Increase Criminal Penalties for Assaults on Law Enforcement Officers
• Prosecute Drive-By Shootings as Acts of Domestic Terrorism
• Bring Violent Extremist Groups Like ANTIFA to Justice
• End Cashless Bail and Keep Dangerous Criminals Locked Up until Trial

END ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION AND PROTECT AMERICAN WORKERS

• Block Illegal Immigrants from Becoming Eligible for Taxpayer-Funded Welfare, Healthcare, and Free College Tuition
• Mandatory Deportation for Non-Citizen Gang Members
• Dismantle Human Trafficking Networks
• End Sanctuary Cities to Restore our Neighborhoods and Protect our Families
• Prohibit American Companies from Replacing United States Citizens with Lower-Cost Foreign Workers
• Require New Immigrants to Be Able to Support Themselves Financially

INNOVATE FOR THE FUTURE

• Launch Space Force, Establish Permanent Manned Presence on The Moon and Send the First Manned Mission to Mars
• Build the World's Greatest Infrastructure System
• Win the Race to 5G and Establish a National High-Speed Wireless Internet Network
• Continue to Lead the World in Access to the Cleanest Drinking Water and Cleanest Air
• Partner with Other Nations to Clean Up our Planet's Oceans

AMERICA FIRST FOREIGN POLICY

• Stop Endless Wars and Bring Our Troops Home
• Get Allies to Pay their Fair Share
• Maintain and Expand America's Unrivaled Military Strength
• Wipe Out Global Terrorists Who Threaten to Harm Americans
• Build a Great Cybersecurity Defense System and Missile Defense System

DEFEND AMERICAN VALUES

• Continue nominating constitutionalist Supreme Court and lower court judges
• Protect unborn life through every means available
• Defend the freedoms of religious believers and organizations
• Support the exercise of Second Amendment rights[url=https://ballotpedia.org/The_Republican_Party_Platform,_2020#cite_note-quotedisclaimer-7][7][/url]

"

---

That is a summary
Do you have the actual words?

---

I don't need to be picky, I know attorneys like that, but I am good with an idea. Pick one, show the GOP can come together and push it through...

---

Should Texas GOP push this through?


To be elected to state office, a candidate must win not only a majority of votes, but also more than half of Texas's 254 counties. Democrats in Texas are concentrated in a few urban areas, while Republicans are spread across the map. This system would effectively mean Democrats would be shut out forever.

---

Depends, State Senate yes. Representative no.

My logic that Senators represent the whole state. Reps represent a geographic area.

---

I think you mean US Senate

Wow! You are a Texas Republican

---

Sorry, I keep mixing US with Texas.

---

No problem. What do you think of this plank in the Texas Republican platform?

To be elected to state office, a candidate must win not only a majority of votes, but also more than half of Texas's 254 counties. Democrats in Texas are concentrated in a few urban areas, while Republicans are spread across the map. This system would effectively mean Democrats would be shut out forever.

---

I think the concept holds, if it is to represent a specific District. No, just that District.

If it is a Statewide position, yes. Should not have one area picking. It would also force getting out to the areas the are not well represented

FLBear5630 said:

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Osodecentx said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Osodecentx said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Osodecentx said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

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whiterock said:

---

look at the implicit premise of your measure of effectiveness: number of bills passed.

Is that really the only yardstick (or even the one that matters most)?
Doesn't a consistent voting record have value?
Is there no benefit to OPPOSING things in Congress?
is there no benefit to elected officials using bully pulpit to organize public sentiment?

She's a rabble rousing Freedom Caucus member seeking to force the GOP to be more attentive to the platform agenda. So was RDS. They had virtually identical voting records.

So you can criticize her eloquence and her choice of where to draw the battle lines. But she's hardly outside the mainstream with her views/votes. A good leaders can figure out ways to put her combatitiveness to good use. Democrats do it. Why can't we?

(hint: you say she "undermines the majority" yet it is the moderates who are largely responsible for MTG. If you would just vote for the platform agenda, there'd be no oxygen for the Freedom Caucus to exist.)

---

The problem I see is that the Speaker sets the Agenda.
The party Platform IS the agenda; the Speaker is supposed to execute a plan to enact the platform.
The Whip does what it takes to ensure that the Speaker gets the Votes.
If the whip is whipping the base rather than the moderates, that is a sign the Speaker is NOT working the platform. You don't have to whip the base to pass the platform. You have to whip moderates to pass the platform......
The Freedom Caucus and MTG working within the structure is fine, the Grandstanding playing the media to force their hand? No, that just empowers the Dems.
No, it empowers the platform agenda.

The biggest issue I have with the Freedom Caucus is they do not care about anything but their narrow view.
It's called "the platform." The reality of how the Govt runs, keeping the Nation operating or god forbid moving the Nation forward vs Russia, China and Iran is non-existent.
They were elected to enact the platform into law, not empower the other side to get its own platform enacted into law, or to protect things that are at odds with platform agendas.

The Freedom Caucus thinks it is the 94 Revolution and T-Party on Steroids.
Why shouldn't it be? We've got a frickin' disaster not because of a lack of compromise but because Democrats passed bad law!
What they fail to realize was that both those movements attacked Dem Administrations. TThe Freedom Caucus that will shut down the Govt and burn it down if it doesn't get its way and is attacking its own Party! .....to stop their own party from helping Democrats enact bad policy! Stopping bad stuff from getting enacted into law is a core job requirement of a Congresscritter. Democrats do a very good job of it against us. Why should we not return the favor?

She and her cronies don't work within the GOP system and are willing to attack the Speaker when THEY have power!
Why shouldn't a speaker who breaks promises to his/her caucus be attacked? Exactly what does it look like when the speaker whips the base too hard? Isn't the base allowed to bite back?
MTG and the Freedom Caucus is a dream come true for the Dems. They love her taking the knees out from under the Speaker and letting the Dems "save" him. She and her group are idiots that do more damage than good. Voting is one part of being a Congressperson.
Dems are scared of the FC. "if you're taking flack, you're over the target....." Remember that one?

---

You are just making an appeal to teamwork and civility, which do have a time and place, just not when a majority of Republicans are demanding better (more conservative) leadership.

---

You also keep referring to MTG as the Whip, she is not. I have no problem with the Whip doing their job, most of the time they operate behind the scenes. I can't think of a well known Whip since Gingrich.

You also keep referring to MTG and MAGA as the "base", we disagree. The whole MAGA/Gang of 8 are on the fringe, not the base. That is why Gaetz was only able to get those 8 votes, a quirky House rule (which will never get passed again) and the small number of GOP Majority is what allowed it to happen. You keep acting like it was "base" movement, it was not. It was 8 of over 279. That is not the base... MTG HAD LESS. A quirk of rule making that got passed is the only reason this small minority of the GOP has any voice at all. You are mistaken that quirk for the base. Without that rule, you hear NOTHING from this crowd but MTG's shrill *****ing and Gaetz's scheming.

---

Every member of the caucus will whip what they can. Some do it behind the scenes. Some for the cameras. Each method has its time and place. In that context, the FC exist almost exclusive as a bulwark AGAINST whipping by moderate Speakers, to push back and force more accommodation of platform objectives.

The vote total did not reflect what you presume. There are dozens of members who shared exactly MTG's views on the Speaker's actions. They just didn't want to have another protracted speaker fight. MTG, if you remember, stuck with McCarthy all the way to the end. She didn't do that because she agreed with McCarthy on issues. She did it because she had carved out a role for herself under McCarthy and didn't see a similar space available under a new speaker.

You keep avoiding the obvious - if you want the FC to go away, just keep putting platform agenda items up for votes and quit making compromises that hand Democrats their platform agenda at the expense of ours. I'm perfectly happy with a Congress that does nothing except shooting down every bill the Democrats propose. We'd be way better off than having all those expensive compromises we keep getting that gut the country in so many ways. That's what Dems do. Just put their platform agenda up for a vote. Why can't we do that?

---

You keep going to the "presume", "not what it looks like", etc... The bottomline is that there are too many factions only concerned with their slice of the pie.
It has always been so and always will be. It's easy to work with your own base. You know what they want and broadly agree with them. So if you find yourself whipping them....isn't that a sign something is wrong with the bill you're whipping them about?

At least at the GOP should find items THEY agree on and put together an Agenda. Hell, the Border that is a no brainer...

We do agree on your last point, they need to put the Agenda to a vote. That is where the strength of the majority can work.

---

We do agree on and put together an agenda. We do it every 2 years at Party Conventions = write a platform. We do it every 4 years at a National Convention. Weeks writing rules for the convention(s) before the first gavel falls. Months arguing about platform planks before the first gavel falls. And then, the platform is passed at a national convention, with strong influence from the Presidential nominee (who gets nearly every thing they want). So we do have an agenda. The only question is, will our elected officials execute on it. Far too often, they don't. Ergo the rise of the FC.

The FC exists solely due to broad dissatisfaction with GOP leadership. If GOP leadership is conservative enough, the FC will have no oxygen to survive.

---

Well, as we expected, it boils down to that. That we do agree on that. We have a Platform, execute it.

---

---

Here it is, 2020 GOP Platform. Pick one that the whole GOP will get behind and push through...

JOBS

• Create 10 Million New Jobs in 10 Months
• Create 1 Million New Small Businesses
• Cut Taxes to Boost Take-Home Pay and Keep Jobs in America
• Enact Fair Trade Deals that Protect American Jobs
• 'Made in America' Tax Credits
• Expand Opportunity Zones
• Continue Deregulatory Agenda for Energy Independence

ERADICATE COVID-19

• Develop a Vaccine by The End Of 2020
• Return to Normal in 2021
• Make All Critical Medicines and Supplies for Healthcare Workers in The United States
• Refill Stockpiles and Prepare for Future Pandemics

END OUR RELIANCE ON CHINA

• Bring Back 1 Million Manufacturing Jobs from China
• Tax Credits for Companies that Bring Back Jobs from China
• Allow 100% Expensing Deductions for Essential Industries like Pharmaceuticals and Robotics who Bring *Back their Manufacturing to the United States
• No Federal Contracts for Companies who Outsource to China
• Hold China Fully Accountable for Allowing the Virus to Spread around the World

HEALTHCARE

• Cut Prescription Drug Prices
• Put Patients and Doctors Back in Charge of our Healthcare System
• Lower Healthcare Insurance Premiums
• End Surprise Billing
• Cover All Pre-Existing Conditions
• Protect Social Security and Medicare
• Protect Our Veterans and Provide World-Class Healthcare and Services

EDUCATION

• Provide School Choice to Every Child in America
• Teach American Exceptionalism

DRAIN THE SWAMP

• Pass Congressional Term Limits
• End Bureaucratic Government Bullying of U.S. Citizens and Small Businesses
• Expose Washington's Money Trail and Delegate Powers Back to People and States
• Drain the Globalist Swamp by Taking on International Organizations That Hurt American Citizens

DEFEND OUR POLICE

• Fully Fund and Hire More Police and Law Enforcement Officers
• Increase Criminal Penalties for Assaults on Law Enforcement Officers
• Prosecute Drive-By Shootings as Acts of Domestic Terrorism
• Bring Violent Extremist Groups Like ANTIFA to Justice
• End Cashless Bail and Keep Dangerous Criminals Locked Up until Trial

END ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION AND PROTECT AMERICAN WORKERS

• Block Illegal Immigrants from Becoming Eligible for Taxpayer-Funded Welfare, Healthcare, and Free College Tuition
• Mandatory Deportation for Non-Citizen Gang Members
• Dismantle Human Trafficking Networks
• End Sanctuary Cities to Restore our Neighborhoods and Protect our Families
• Prohibit American Companies from Replacing United States Citizens with Lower-Cost Foreign Workers
• Require New Immigrants to Be Able to Support Themselves Financially

INNOVATE FOR THE FUTURE

• Launch Space Force, Establish Permanent Manned Presence on The Moon and Send the First Manned Mission to Mars
• Build the World's Greatest Infrastructure System
• Win the Race to 5G and Establish a National High-Speed Wireless Internet Network
• Continue to Lead the World in Access to the Cleanest Drinking Water and Cleanest Air
• Partner with Other Nations to Clean Up our Planet's Oceans

AMERICA FIRST FOREIGN POLICY

• Stop Endless Wars and Bring Our Troops Home
• Get Allies to Pay their Fair Share
• Maintain and Expand America's Unrivaled Military Strength
• Wipe Out Global Terrorists Who Threaten to Harm Americans
• Build a Great Cybersecurity Defense System and Missile Defense System

DEFEND AMERICAN VALUES

• Continue nominating constitutionalist Supreme Court and lower court judges
• Protect unborn life through every means available
• Defend the freedoms of religious believers and organizations
• Support the exercise of Second Amendment rights[url=https://ballotpedia.org/The_Republican_Party_Platform,_2020#cite_note-quotedisclaimer-7][7][/url]

"

---

That is a summary
Do you have the actual words?

---

I don't need to be picky, I know attorneys like that, but I am good with an idea. Pick one, show the GOP can come together and push it through...

---

Should Texas GOP push this through?


To be elected to state office, a candidate must win not only a majority of votes, but also more than half of Texas's 254 counties. Democrats in Texas are concentrated in a few urban areas, while Republicans are spread across the map. This system would effectively mean Democrats would be shut out forever.

---

Depends, State Senate yes. Representative no.

My logic that Senators represent the whole state. Reps represent a geographic area.

---

I think you mean US Senate

Wow! You are a Texas Republican

---

Sorry, I keep mixing US with Texas.

---

No problem. What do you think of this plank in the Texas Republican platform?

To be elected to state office, a candidate must win not only a majority of votes, but also more than half of Texas's 254 counties. Democrats in Texas are concentrated in a few urban areas, while Republicans are spread across the map. This system would effectively mean Democrats would be shut out forever.

---

I think the concept holds, if it is to represent a specific District. No, just that District.

If it is a Statewide position, yes. Should not have one area picking. It would also force getting out to the areas the are not well represented

---

So, candidate for US Senate gets 1 million votes but doesn't win a majority of the 254 counties. His opponent gets 500,000 votes but won a majority of counties. That would mean the loser would advance

Do you think that's the way for Republicans to go?

Osodecentx said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Osodecentx said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Osodecentx said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Osodecentx said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Osodecentx said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Osodecentx said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

look at the implicit premise of your measure of effectiveness: number of bills passed.

Is that really the only yardstick (or even the one that matters most)?
Doesn't a consistent voting record have value?
Is there no benefit to OPPOSING things in Congress?
is there no benefit to elected officials using bully pulpit to organize public sentiment?

She's a rabble rousing Freedom Caucus member seeking to force the GOP to be more attentive to the platform agenda. So was RDS. They had virtually identical voting records.

So you can criticize her eloquence and her choice of where to draw the battle lines. But she's hardly outside the mainstream with her views/votes. A good leaders can figure out ways to put her combatitiveness to good use. Democrats do it. Why can't we?

(hint: you say she "undermines the majority" yet it is the moderates who are largely responsible for MTG. If you would just vote for the platform agenda, there'd be no oxygen for the Freedom Caucus to exist.)

---

The problem I see is that the Speaker sets the Agenda.
The party Platform IS the agenda; the Speaker is supposed to execute a plan to enact the platform.
The Whip does what it takes to ensure that the Speaker gets the Votes.
If the whip is whipping the base rather than the moderates, that is a sign the Speaker is NOT working the platform. You don't have to whip the base to pass the platform. You have to whip moderates to pass the platform......
The Freedom Caucus and MTG working within the structure is fine, the Grandstanding playing the media to force their hand? No, that just empowers the Dems.
No, it empowers the platform agenda.

The biggest issue I have with the Freedom Caucus is they do not care about anything but their narrow view.
It's called "the platform." The reality of how the Govt runs, keeping the Nation operating or god forbid moving the Nation forward vs Russia, China and Iran is non-existent.
They were elected to enact the platform into law, not empower the other side to get its own platform enacted into law, or to protect things that are at odds with platform agendas.

The Freedom Caucus thinks it is the 94 Revolution and T-Party on Steroids.
Why shouldn't it be? We've got a frickin' disaster not because of a lack of compromise but because Democrats passed bad law!
What they fail to realize was that both those movements attacked Dem Administrations. TThe Freedom Caucus that will shut down the Govt and burn it down if it doesn't get its way and is attacking its own Party! .....to stop their own party from helping Democrats enact bad policy! Stopping bad stuff from getting enacted into law is a core job requirement of a Congresscritter. Democrats do a very good job of it against us. Why should we not return the favor?

She and her cronies don't work within the GOP system and are willing to attack the Speaker when THEY have power!
Why shouldn't a speaker who breaks promises to his/her caucus be attacked? Exactly what does it look like when the speaker whips the base too hard? Isn't the base allowed to bite back?
MTG and the Freedom Caucus is a dream come true for the Dems. They love her taking the knees out from under the Speaker and letting the Dems "save" him. She and her group are idiots that do more damage than good. Voting is one part of being a Congressperson.
Dems are scared of the FC. "if you're taking flack, you're over the target....." Remember that one?

---

You are just making an appeal to teamwork and civility, which do have a time and place, just not when a majority of Republicans are demanding better (more conservative) leadership.

---

You also keep referring to MTG as the Whip, she is not. I have no problem with the Whip doing their job, most of the time they operate behind the scenes. I can't think of a well known Whip since Gingrich.

You also keep referring to MTG and MAGA as the "base", we disagree. The whole MAGA/Gang of 8 are on the fringe, not the base. That is why Gaetz was only able to get those 8 votes, a quirky House rule (which will never get passed again) and the small number of GOP Majority is what allowed it to happen. You keep acting like it was "base" movement, it was not. It was 8 of over 279. That is not the base... MTG HAD LESS. A quirk of rule making that got passed is the only reason this small minority of the GOP has any voice at all. You are mistaken that quirk for the base. Without that rule, you hear NOTHING from this crowd but MTG's shrill *****ing and Gaetz's scheming.

---

Every member of the caucus will whip what they can. Some do it behind the scenes. Some for the cameras. Each method has its time and place. In that context, the FC exist almost exclusive as a bulwark AGAINST whipping by moderate Speakers, to push back and force more accommodation of platform objectives.

The vote total did not reflect what you presume. There are dozens of members who shared exactly MTG's views on the Speaker's actions. They just didn't want to have another protracted speaker fight. MTG, if you remember, stuck with McCarthy all the way to the end. She didn't do that because she agreed with McCarthy on issues. She did it because she had carved out a role for herself under McCarthy and didn't see a similar space available under a new speaker.

You keep avoiding the obvious - if you want the FC to go away, just keep putting platform agenda items up for votes and quit making compromises that hand Democrats their platform agenda at the expense of ours. I'm perfectly happy with a Congress that does nothing except shooting down every bill the Democrats propose. We'd be way better off than having all those expensive compromises we keep getting that gut the country in so many ways. That's what Dems do. Just put their platform agenda up for a vote. Why can't we do that?

---

You keep going to the "presume", "not what it looks like", etc... The bottomline is that there are too many factions only concerned with their slice of the pie.
It has always been so and always will be. It's easy to work with your own base. You know what they want and broadly agree with them. So if you find yourself whipping them....isn't that a sign something is wrong with the bill you're whipping them about?

At least at the GOP should find items THEY agree on and put together an Agenda. Hell, the Border that is a no brainer...

We do agree on your last point, they need to put the Agenda to a vote. That is where the strength of the majority can work.

---

We do agree on and put together an agenda. We do it every 2 years at Party Conventions = write a platform. We do it every 4 years at a National Convention. Weeks writing rules for the convention(s) before the first gavel falls. Months arguing about platform planks before the first gavel falls. And then, the platform is passed at a national convention, with strong influence from the Presidential nominee (who gets nearly every thing they want). So we do have an agenda. The only question is, will our elected officials execute on it. Far too often, they don't. Ergo the rise of the FC.

The FC exists solely due to broad dissatisfaction with GOP leadership. If GOP leadership is conservative enough, the FC will have no oxygen to survive.

---

Well, as we expected, it boils down to that. That we do agree on that. We have a Platform, execute it.

---

---

Here it is, 2020 GOP Platform. Pick one that the whole GOP will get behind and push through...

JOBS

• Create 10 Million New Jobs in 10 Months
• Create 1 Million New Small Businesses
• Cut Taxes to Boost Take-Home Pay and Keep Jobs in America
• Enact Fair Trade Deals that Protect American Jobs
• 'Made in America' Tax Credits
• Expand Opportunity Zones
• Continue Deregulatory Agenda for Energy Independence

ERADICATE COVID-19

• Develop a Vaccine by The End Of 2020
• Return to Normal in 2021
• Make All Critical Medicines and Supplies for Healthcare Workers in The United States
• Refill Stockpiles and Prepare for Future Pandemics

END OUR RELIANCE ON CHINA

• Bring Back 1 Million Manufacturing Jobs from China
• Tax Credits for Companies that Bring Back Jobs from China
• Allow 100% Expensing Deductions for Essential Industries like Pharmaceuticals and Robotics who Bring *Back their Manufacturing to the United States
• No Federal Contracts for Companies who Outsource to China
• Hold China Fully Accountable for Allowing the Virus to Spread around the World

HEALTHCARE

• Cut Prescription Drug Prices
• Put Patients and Doctors Back in Charge of our Healthcare System
• Lower Healthcare Insurance Premiums
• End Surprise Billing
• Cover All Pre-Existing Conditions
• Protect Social Security and Medicare
• Protect Our Veterans and Provide World-Class Healthcare and Services

EDUCATION

• Provide School Choice to Every Child in America
• Teach American Exceptionalism

DRAIN THE SWAMP

• Pass Congressional Term Limits
• End Bureaucratic Government Bullying of U.S. Citizens and Small Businesses
• Expose Washington's Money Trail and Delegate Powers Back to People and States
• Drain the Globalist Swamp by Taking on International Organizations That Hurt American Citizens

DEFEND OUR POLICE

• Fully Fund and Hire More Police and Law Enforcement Officers
• Increase Criminal Penalties for Assaults on Law Enforcement Officers
• Prosecute Drive-By Shootings as Acts of Domestic Terrorism
• Bring Violent Extremist Groups Like ANTIFA to Justice
• End Cashless Bail and Keep Dangerous Criminals Locked Up until Trial

END ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION AND PROTECT AMERICAN WORKERS

• Block Illegal Immigrants from Becoming Eligible for Taxpayer-Funded Welfare, Healthcare, and Free College Tuition
• Mandatory Deportation for Non-Citizen Gang Members
• Dismantle Human Trafficking Networks
• End Sanctuary Cities to Restore our Neighborhoods and Protect our Families
• Prohibit American Companies from Replacing United States Citizens with Lower-Cost Foreign Workers
• Require New Immigrants to Be Able to Support Themselves Financially

INNOVATE FOR THE FUTURE

• Launch Space Force, Establish Permanent Manned Presence on The Moon and Send the First Manned Mission to Mars
• Build the World's Greatest Infrastructure System
• Win the Race to 5G and Establish a National High-Speed Wireless Internet Network
• Continue to Lead the World in Access to the Cleanest Drinking Water and Cleanest Air
• Partner with Other Nations to Clean Up our Planet's Oceans

AMERICA FIRST FOREIGN POLICY

• Stop Endless Wars and Bring Our Troops Home
• Get Allies to Pay their Fair Share
• Maintain and Expand America's Unrivaled Military Strength
• Wipe Out Global Terrorists Who Threaten to Harm Americans
• Build a Great Cybersecurity Defense System and Missile Defense System

DEFEND AMERICAN VALUES

• Continue nominating constitutionalist Supreme Court and lower court judges
• Protect unborn life through every means available
• Defend the freedoms of religious believers and organizations
• Support the exercise of Second Amendment rights[url=https://ballotpedia.org/The_Republican_Party_Platform,_2020#cite_note-quotedisclaimer-7][7][/url]

"

---

That is a summary
Do you have the actual words?

---

I don't need to be picky, I know attorneys like that, but I am good with an idea. Pick one, show the GOP can come together and push it through...

---

Should Texas GOP push this through?


To be elected to state office, a candidate must win not only a majority of votes, but also more than half of Texas's 254 counties. Democrats in Texas are concentrated in a few urban areas, while Republicans are spread across the map. This system would effectively mean Democrats would be shut out forever.

---

Depends, State Senate yes. Representative no.

My logic that Senators represent the whole state. Reps represent a geographic area.

---

I think you mean US Senate

Wow! You are a Texas Republican

---

Sorry, I keep mixing US with Texas.

---

No problem. What do you think of this plank in the Texas Republican platform?

To be elected to state office, a candidate must win not only a majority of votes, but also more than half of Texas's 254 counties. Democrats in Texas are concentrated in a few urban areas, while Republicans are spread across the map. This system would effectively mean Democrats would be shut out forever.

---

I think the concept holds, if it is to represent a specific District. No, just that District.

If it is a Statewide position, yes. Should not have one area picking. It would also force getting out to the areas the are not well represented

---

So, candidate for US Senate gets 1 million votes but doesn't win a majority of the 254 counties. His opponent gets 500,000 votes but won a majority of counties. That would mean the loser would advance

Do you think that's the way for Republicans to go?

---

No, your way puts the County portion as a higher weight. They are equal.

In my mind, it would cause a runoff. The point is to force candidates to get out of the population centers and represent the other areas.

That would do it. You don't want someone from Houston who never set foot in the panhandle making water legislation for Pampa. Or mineral rights in Borger. Forcing them to campaign the whole State and develop a Statewide platform would help even if they didn't win 50% of the Counties. Having lived in Amarillo, anything that foces politicians to recognize issues up there is good.

FLBear5630 said:

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Osodecentx said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Osodecentx said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Osodecentx said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Osodecentx said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Osodecentx said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Osodecentx said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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whiterock said:

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FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

look at the implicit premise of your measure of effectiveness: number of bills passed.

Is that really the only yardstick (or even the one that matters most)?
Doesn't a consistent voting record have value?
Is there no benefit to OPPOSING things in Congress?
is there no benefit to elected officials using bully pulpit to organize public sentiment?

She's a rabble rousing Freedom Caucus member seeking to force the GOP to be more attentive to the platform agenda. So was RDS. They had virtually identical voting records.

So you can criticize her eloquence and her choice of where to draw the battle lines. But she's hardly outside the mainstream with her views/votes. A good leaders can figure out ways to put her combatitiveness to good use. Democrats do it. Why can't we?

(hint: you say she "undermines the majority" yet it is the moderates who are largely responsible for MTG. If you would just vote for the platform agenda, there'd be no oxygen for the Freedom Caucus to exist.)

---

The problem I see is that the Speaker sets the Agenda.
The party Platform IS the agenda; the Speaker is supposed to execute a plan to enact the platform.
The Whip does what it takes to ensure that the Speaker gets the Votes.
If the whip is whipping the base rather than the moderates, that is a sign the Speaker is NOT working the platform. You don't have to whip the base to pass the platform. You have to whip moderates to pass the platform......
The Freedom Caucus and MTG working within the structure is fine, the Grandstanding playing the media to force their hand? No, that just empowers the Dems.
No, it empowers the platform agenda.

The biggest issue I have with the Freedom Caucus is they do not care about anything but their narrow view.
It's called "the platform." The reality of how the Govt runs, keeping the Nation operating or god forbid moving the Nation forward vs Russia, China and Iran is non-existent.
They were elected to enact the platform into law, not empower the other side to get its own platform enacted into law, or to protect things that are at odds with platform agendas.

The Freedom Caucus thinks it is the 94 Revolution and T-Party on Steroids.
Why shouldn't it be? We've got a frickin' disaster not because of a lack of compromise but because Democrats passed bad law!
What they fail to realize was that both those movements attacked Dem Administrations. TThe Freedom Caucus that will shut down the Govt and burn it down if it doesn't get its way and is attacking its own Party! .....to stop their own party from helping Democrats enact bad policy! Stopping bad stuff from getting enacted into law is a core job requirement of a Congresscritter. Democrats do a very good job of it against us. Why should we not return the favor?

She and her cronies don't work within the GOP system and are willing to attack the Speaker when THEY have power!
Why shouldn't a speaker who breaks promises to his/her caucus be attacked? Exactly what does it look like when the speaker whips the base too hard? Isn't the base allowed to bite back?
MTG and the Freedom Caucus is a dream come true for the Dems. They love her taking the knees out from under the Speaker and letting the Dems "save" him. She and her group are idiots that do more damage than good. Voting is one part of being a Congressperson.
Dems are scared of the FC. "if you're taking flack, you're over the target....." Remember that one?

---

You are just making an appeal to teamwork and civility, which do have a time and place, just not when a majority of Republicans are demanding better (more conservative) leadership.

---

You also keep referring to MTG as the Whip, she is not. I have no problem with the Whip doing their job, most of the time they operate behind the scenes. I can't think of a well known Whip since Gingrich.

You also keep referring to MTG and MAGA as the "base", we disagree. The whole MAGA/Gang of 8 are on the fringe, not the base. That is why Gaetz was only able to get those 8 votes, a quirky House rule (which will never get passed again) and the small number of GOP Majority is what allowed it to happen. You keep acting like it was "base" movement, it was not. It was 8 of over 279. That is not the base... MTG HAD LESS. A quirk of rule making that got passed is the only reason this small minority of the GOP has any voice at all. You are mistaken that quirk for the base. Without that rule, you hear NOTHING from this crowd but MTG's shrill *****ing and Gaetz's scheming.

---

Every member of the caucus will whip what they can. Some do it behind the scenes. Some for the cameras. Each method has its time and place. In that context, the FC exist almost exclusive as a bulwark AGAINST whipping by moderate Speakers, to push back and force more accommodation of platform objectives.

The vote total did not reflect what you presume. There are dozens of members who shared exactly MTG's views on the Speaker's actions. They just didn't want to have another protracted speaker fight. MTG, if you remember, stuck with McCarthy all the way to the end. She didn't do that because she agreed with McCarthy on issues. She did it because she had carved out a role for herself under McCarthy and didn't see a similar space available under a new speaker.

You keep avoiding the obvious - if you want the FC to go away, just keep putting platform agenda items up for votes and quit making compromises that hand Democrats their platform agenda at the expense of ours. I'm perfectly happy with a Congress that does nothing except shooting down every bill the Democrats propose. We'd be way better off than having all those expensive compromises we keep getting that gut the country in so many ways. That's what Dems do. Just put their platform agenda up for a vote. Why can't we do that?

---

You keep going to the "presume", "not what it looks like", etc... The bottomline is that there are too many factions only concerned with their slice of the pie.
It has always been so and always will be. It's easy to work with your own base. You know what they want and broadly agree with them. So if you find yourself whipping them....isn't that a sign something is wrong with the bill you're whipping them about?

At least at the GOP should find items THEY agree on and put together an Agenda. Hell, the Border that is a no brainer...

We do agree on your last point, they need to put the Agenda to a vote. That is where the strength of the majority can work.

---

We do agree on and put together an agenda. We do it every 2 years at Party Conventions = write a platform. We do it every 4 years at a National Convention. Weeks writing rules for the convention(s) before the first gavel falls. Months arguing about platform planks before the first gavel falls. And then, the platform is passed at a national convention, with strong influence from the Presidential nominee (who gets nearly every thing they want). So we do have an agenda. The only question is, will our elected officials execute on it. Far too often, they don't. Ergo the rise of the FC.

The FC exists solely due to broad dissatisfaction with GOP leadership. If GOP leadership is conservative enough, the FC will have no oxygen to survive.

---

Well, as we expected, it boils down to that. That we do agree on that. We have a Platform, execute it.

---

---

Here it is, 2020 GOP Platform. Pick one that the whole GOP will get behind and push through...

JOBS

• Create 10 Million New Jobs in 10 Months
• Create 1 Million New Small Businesses
• Cut Taxes to Boost Take-Home Pay and Keep Jobs in America
• Enact Fair Trade Deals that Protect American Jobs
• 'Made in America' Tax Credits
• Expand Opportunity Zones
• Continue Deregulatory Agenda for Energy Independence

ERADICATE COVID-19

• Develop a Vaccine by The End Of 2020
• Return to Normal in 2021
• Make All Critical Medicines and Supplies for Healthcare Workers in The United States
• Refill Stockpiles and Prepare for Future Pandemics

END OUR RELIANCE ON CHINA

• Bring Back 1 Million Manufacturing Jobs from China
• Tax Credits for Companies that Bring Back Jobs from China
• Allow 100% Expensing Deductions for Essential Industries like Pharmaceuticals and Robotics who Bring *Back their Manufacturing to the United States
• No Federal Contracts for Companies who Outsource to China
• Hold China Fully Accountable for Allowing the Virus to Spread around the World

HEALTHCARE

• Cut Prescription Drug Prices
• Put Patients and Doctors Back in Charge of our Healthcare System
• Lower Healthcare Insurance Premiums
• End Surprise Billing
• Cover All Pre-Existing Conditions
• Protect Social Security and Medicare
• Protect Our Veterans and Provide World-Class Healthcare and Services

EDUCATION

• Provide School Choice to Every Child in America
• Teach American Exceptionalism

DRAIN THE SWAMP

• Pass Congressional Term Limits
• End Bureaucratic Government Bullying of U.S. Citizens and Small Businesses
• Expose Washington's Money Trail and Delegate Powers Back to People and States
• Drain the Globalist Swamp by Taking on International Organizations That Hurt American Citizens

DEFEND OUR POLICE

• Fully Fund and Hire More Police and Law Enforcement Officers
• Increase Criminal Penalties for Assaults on Law Enforcement Officers
• Prosecute Drive-By Shootings as Acts of Domestic Terrorism
• Bring Violent Extremist Groups Like ANTIFA to Justice
• End Cashless Bail and Keep Dangerous Criminals Locked Up until Trial

END ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION AND PROTECT AMERICAN WORKERS

• Block Illegal Immigrants from Becoming Eligible for Taxpayer-Funded Welfare, Healthcare, and Free College Tuition
• Mandatory Deportation for Non-Citizen Gang Members
• Dismantle Human Trafficking Networks
• End Sanctuary Cities to Restore our Neighborhoods and Protect our Families
• Prohibit American Companies from Replacing United States Citizens with Lower-Cost Foreign Workers
• Require New Immigrants to Be Able to Support Themselves Financially

INNOVATE FOR THE FUTURE

• Launch Space Force, Establish Permanent Manned Presence on The Moon and Send the First Manned Mission to Mars
• Build the World's Greatest Infrastructure System
• Win the Race to 5G and Establish a National High-Speed Wireless Internet Network
• Continue to Lead the World in Access to the Cleanest Drinking Water and Cleanest Air
• Partner with Other Nations to Clean Up our Planet's Oceans

AMERICA FIRST FOREIGN POLICY

• Stop Endless Wars and Bring Our Troops Home
• Get Allies to Pay their Fair Share
• Maintain and Expand America's Unrivaled Military Strength
• Wipe Out Global Terrorists Who Threaten to Harm Americans
• Build a Great Cybersecurity Defense System and Missile Defense System

DEFEND AMERICAN VALUES

• Continue nominating constitutionalist Supreme Court and lower court judges
• Protect unborn life through every means available
• Defend the freedoms of religious believers and organizations
• Support the exercise of Second Amendment rights[url=https://ballotpedia.org/The_Republican_Party_Platform,_2020#cite_note-quotedisclaimer-7][7][/url]

"

---

That is a summary
Do you have the actual words?

---

I don't need to be picky, I know attorneys like that, but I am good with an idea. Pick one, show the GOP can come together and push it through...

---

Should Texas GOP push this through?


To be elected to state office, a candidate must win not only a majority of votes, but also more than half of Texas's 254 counties. Democrats in Texas are concentrated in a few urban areas, while Republicans are spread across the map. This system would effectively mean Democrats would be shut out forever.

---

Depends, State Senate yes. Representative no.

My logic that Senators represent the whole state. Reps represent a geographic area.

---

I think you mean US Senate

Wow! You are a Texas Republican

---

Sorry, I keep mixing US with Texas.

---

No problem. What do you think of this plank in the Texas Republican platform?

To be elected to state office, a candidate must win not only a majority of votes, but also more than half of Texas's 254 counties. Democrats in Texas are concentrated in a few urban areas, while Republicans are spread across the map. This system would effectively mean Democrats would be shut out forever.

---

I think the concept holds, if it is to represent a specific District. No, just that District.

If it is a Statewide position, yes. Should not have one area picking. It would also force getting out to the areas the are not well represented

---

So, candidate for US Senate gets 1 million votes but doesn't win a majority of the 254 counties. His opponent gets 500,000 votes but won a majority of counties. That would mean the loser would advance

Do you think that's the way for Republicans to go?

---

No, your way puts the County portion as a higher weight. They are equal.

In my mind, it would cause a runoff. The point is to force candidates to get out of the population centers and represent the other areas.

That would do it. You don't want someone from Houston who never set foot in the panhandle making water legislation for Pampa. Or mineral rights in Borger. Forcing them to campaign the whole State and develop a Statewide platform would help even if they didn't win 50% of the Counties. Having lived in Amarillo, anything that foces politicians to recognize issues up there is good.

---

Okay
We'll just disagree
A guy with 30% of the vote can force a run off. If the vote winner still hasn't won a majority of the counties? What happens?

Osodecentx said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Osodecentx said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Osodecentx said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Osodecentx said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Osodecentx said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Osodecentx said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Osodecentx said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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whiterock said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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whiterock said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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whiterock said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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whiterock said:

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look at the implicit premise of your measure of effectiveness: number of bills passed.

Is that really the only yardstick (or even the one that matters most)?
Doesn't a consistent voting record have value?
Is there no benefit to OPPOSING things in Congress?
is there no benefit to elected officials using bully pulpit to organize public sentiment?

She's a rabble rousing Freedom Caucus member seeking to force the GOP to be more attentive to the platform agenda. So was RDS. They had virtually identical voting records.

So you can criticize her eloquence and her choice of where to draw the battle lines. But she's hardly outside the mainstream with her views/votes. A good leaders can figure out ways to put her combatitiveness to good use. Democrats do it. Why can't we?

(hint: you say she "undermines the majority" yet it is the moderates who are largely responsible for MTG. If you would just vote for the platform agenda, there'd be no oxygen for the Freedom Caucus to exist.)

---

The problem I see is that the Speaker sets the Agenda.
The party Platform IS the agenda; the Speaker is supposed to execute a plan to enact the platform.
The Whip does what it takes to ensure that the Speaker gets the Votes.
If the whip is whipping the base rather than the moderates, that is a sign the Speaker is NOT working the platform. You don't have to whip the base to pass the platform. You have to whip moderates to pass the platform......
The Freedom Caucus and MTG working within the structure is fine, the Grandstanding playing the media to force their hand? No, that just empowers the Dems.
No, it empowers the platform agenda.

The biggest issue I have with the Freedom Caucus is they do not care about anything but their narrow view.
It's called "the platform." The reality of how the Govt runs, keeping the Nation operating or god forbid moving the Nation forward vs Russia, China and Iran is non-existent.
They were elected to enact the platform into law, not empower the other side to get its own platform enacted into law, or to protect things that are at odds with platform agendas.

The Freedom Caucus thinks it is the 94 Revolution and T-Party on Steroids.
Why shouldn't it be? We've got a frickin' disaster not because of a lack of compromise but because Democrats passed bad law!
What they fail to realize was that both those movements attacked Dem Administrations. TThe Freedom Caucus that will shut down the Govt and burn it down if it doesn't get its way and is attacking its own Party! .....to stop their own party from helping Democrats enact bad policy! Stopping bad stuff from getting enacted into law is a core job requirement of a Congresscritter. Democrats do a very good job of it against us. Why should we not return the favor?

She and her cronies don't work within the GOP system and are willing to attack the Speaker when THEY have power!
Why shouldn't a speaker who breaks promises to his/her caucus be attacked? Exactly what does it look like when the speaker whips the base too hard? Isn't the base allowed to bite back?
MTG and the Freedom Caucus is a dream come true for the Dems. They love her taking the knees out from under the Speaker and letting the Dems "save" him. She and her group are idiots that do more damage than good. Voting is one part of being a Congressperson.
Dems are scared of the FC. "if you're taking flack, you're over the target....." Remember that one?

---

You are just making an appeal to teamwork and civility, which do have a time and place, just not when a majority of Republicans are demanding better (more conservative) leadership.

---

You also keep referring to MTG as the Whip, she is not. I have no problem with the Whip doing their job, most of the time they operate behind the scenes. I can't think of a well known Whip since Gingrich.

You also keep referring to MTG and MAGA as the "base", we disagree. The whole MAGA/Gang of 8 are on the fringe, not the base. That is why Gaetz was only able to get those 8 votes, a quirky House rule (which will never get passed again) and the small number of GOP Majority is what allowed it to happen. You keep acting like it was "base" movement, it was not. It was 8 of over 279. That is not the base... MTG HAD LESS. A quirk of rule making that got passed is the only reason this small minority of the GOP has any voice at all. You are mistaken that quirk for the base. Without that rule, you hear NOTHING from this crowd but MTG's shrill *****ing and Gaetz's scheming.

---

Every member of the caucus will whip what they can. Some do it behind the scenes. Some for the cameras. Each method has its time and place. In that context, the FC exist almost exclusive as a bulwark AGAINST whipping by moderate Speakers, to push back and force more accommodation of platform objectives.

The vote total did not reflect what you presume. There are dozens of members who shared exactly MTG's views on the Speaker's actions. They just didn't want to have another protracted speaker fight. MTG, if you remember, stuck with McCarthy all the way to the end. She didn't do that because she agreed with McCarthy on issues. She did it because she had carved out a role for herself under McCarthy and didn't see a similar space available under a new speaker.

You keep avoiding the obvious - if you want the FC to go away, just keep putting platform agenda items up for votes and quit making compromises that hand Democrats their platform agenda at the expense of ours. I'm perfectly happy with a Congress that does nothing except shooting down every bill the Democrats propose. We'd be way better off than having all those expensive compromises we keep getting that gut the country in so many ways. That's what Dems do. Just put their platform agenda up for a vote. Why can't we do that?

---

You keep going to the "presume", "not what it looks like", etc... The bottomline is that there are too many factions only concerned with their slice of the pie.
It has always been so and always will be. It's easy to work with your own base. You know what they want and broadly agree with them. So if you find yourself whipping them....isn't that a sign something is wrong with the bill you're whipping them about?

At least at the GOP should find items THEY agree on and put together an Agenda. Hell, the Border that is a no brainer...

We do agree on your last point, they need to put the Agenda to a vote. That is where the strength of the majority can work.

---

We do agree on and put together an agenda. We do it every 2 years at Party Conventions = write a platform. We do it every 4 years at a National Convention. Weeks writing rules for the convention(s) before the first gavel falls. Months arguing about platform planks before the first gavel falls. And then, the platform is passed at a national convention, with strong influence from the Presidential nominee (who gets nearly every thing they want). So we do have an agenda. The only question is, will our elected officials execute on it. Far too often, they don't. Ergo the rise of the FC.

The FC exists solely due to broad dissatisfaction with GOP leadership. If GOP leadership is conservative enough, the FC will have no oxygen to survive.

---

Well, as we expected, it boils down to that. That we do agree on that. We have a Platform, execute it.

---

---

Here it is, 2020 GOP Platform. Pick one that the whole GOP will get behind and push through...

JOBS

• Create 10 Million New Jobs in 10 Months
• Create 1 Million New Small Businesses
• Cut Taxes to Boost Take-Home Pay and Keep Jobs in America
• Enact Fair Trade Deals that Protect American Jobs
• 'Made in America' Tax Credits
• Expand Opportunity Zones
• Continue Deregulatory Agenda for Energy Independence

ERADICATE COVID-19

• Develop a Vaccine by The End Of 2020
• Return to Normal in 2021
• Make All Critical Medicines and Supplies for Healthcare Workers in The United States
• Refill Stockpiles and Prepare for Future Pandemics

END OUR RELIANCE ON CHINA

• Bring Back 1 Million Manufacturing Jobs from China
• Tax Credits for Companies that Bring Back Jobs from China
• Allow 100% Expensing Deductions for Essential Industries like Pharmaceuticals and Robotics who Bring *Back their Manufacturing to the United States
• No Federal Contracts for Companies who Outsource to China
• Hold China Fully Accountable for Allowing the Virus to Spread around the World

HEALTHCARE

• Cut Prescription Drug Prices
• Put Patients and Doctors Back in Charge of our Healthcare System
• Lower Healthcare Insurance Premiums
• End Surprise Billing
• Cover All Pre-Existing Conditions
• Protect Social Security and Medicare
• Protect Our Veterans and Provide World-Class Healthcare and Services

EDUCATION

• Provide School Choice to Every Child in America
• Teach American Exceptionalism

DRAIN THE SWAMP

• Pass Congressional Term Limits
• End Bureaucratic Government Bullying of U.S. Citizens and Small Businesses
• Expose Washington's Money Trail and Delegate Powers Back to People and States
• Drain the Globalist Swamp by Taking on International Organizations That Hurt American Citizens

DEFEND OUR POLICE

• Fully Fund and Hire More Police and Law Enforcement Officers
• Increase Criminal Penalties for Assaults on Law Enforcement Officers
• Prosecute Drive-By Shootings as Acts of Domestic Terrorism
• Bring Violent Extremist Groups Like ANTIFA to Justice
• End Cashless Bail and Keep Dangerous Criminals Locked Up until Trial

END ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION AND PROTECT AMERICAN WORKERS

• Block Illegal Immigrants from Becoming Eligible for Taxpayer-Funded Welfare, Healthcare, and Free College Tuition
• Mandatory Deportation for Non-Citizen Gang Members
• Dismantle Human Trafficking Networks
• End Sanctuary Cities to Restore our Neighborhoods and Protect our Families
• Prohibit American Companies from Replacing United States Citizens with Lower-Cost Foreign Workers
• Require New Immigrants to Be Able to Support Themselves Financially

INNOVATE FOR THE FUTURE

• Launch Space Force, Establish Permanent Manned Presence on The Moon and Send the First Manned Mission to Mars
• Build the World's Greatest Infrastructure System
• Win the Race to 5G and Establish a National High-Speed Wireless Internet Network
• Continue to Lead the World in Access to the Cleanest Drinking Water and Cleanest Air
• Partner with Other Nations to Clean Up our Planet's Oceans

AMERICA FIRST FOREIGN POLICY

• Stop Endless Wars and Bring Our Troops Home
• Get Allies to Pay their Fair Share
• Maintain and Expand America's Unrivaled Military Strength
• Wipe Out Global Terrorists Who Threaten to Harm Americans
• Build a Great Cybersecurity Defense System and Missile Defense System

DEFEND AMERICAN VALUES

• Continue nominating constitutionalist Supreme Court and lower court judges
• Protect unborn life through every means available
• Defend the freedoms of religious believers and organizations
• Support the exercise of Second Amendment rights[url=https://ballotpedia.org/The_Republican_Party_Platform,_2020#cite_note-quotedisclaimer-7][7][/url]

"

---

That is a summary
Do you have the actual words?

---

I don't need to be picky, I know attorneys like that, but I am good with an idea. Pick one, show the GOP can come together and push it through...

---

Should Texas GOP push this through?


To be elected to state office, a candidate must win not only a majority of votes, but also more than half of Texas's 254 counties. Democrats in Texas are concentrated in a few urban areas, while Republicans are spread across the map. This system would effectively mean Democrats would be shut out forever.

---

Depends, State Senate yes. Representative no.

My logic that Senators represent the whole state. Reps represent a geographic area.

---

I think you mean US Senate

Wow! You are a Texas Republican

---

Sorry, I keep mixing US with Texas.

---

No problem. What do you think of this plank in the Texas Republican platform?

To be elected to state office, a candidate must win not only a majority of votes, but also more than half of Texas's 254 counties. Democrats in Texas are concentrated in a few urban areas, while Republicans are spread across the map. This system would effectively mean Democrats would be shut out forever.

---

I think the concept holds, if it is to represent a specific District. No, just that District.

If it is a Statewide position, yes. Should not have one area picking. It would also force getting out to the areas the are not well represented

---

So, candidate for US Senate gets 1 million votes but doesn't win a majority of the 254 counties. His opponent gets 500,000 votes but won a majority of counties. That would mean the loser would advance

Do you think that's the way for Republicans to go?

---

No, your way puts the County portion as a higher weight. They are equal.

In my mind, it would cause a runoff. The point is to force candidates to get out of the population centers and represent the other areas.

That would do it. You don't want someone from Houston who never set foot in the panhandle making water legislation for Pampa. Or mineral rights in Borger. Forcing them to campaign the whole State and develop a Statewide platform would help even if they didn't win 50% of the Counties. Having lived in Amarillo, anything that foces politicians to recognize issues up there is good.

---

Okay
We'll just disagree
A guy with 30% of the vote can force a run off. If the vote winner still hasn't won a majority of the counties? What happens?

---

Like any other election you would have tie breakers. Maybe the runoff is popular vote. At least the forcing of the runoff forced somebody to talk to West Texas. As long as you do not have to go East of I35 you will get what you have now. Lubbock, Amarillo, Odessa, El Paso, Sweetwater all get under represented today.

Osodecentx said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Osodecentx said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Osodecentx said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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whiterock said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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whiterock said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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whiterock said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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whiterock said:

---

look at the implicit premise of your measure of effectiveness: number of bills passed.

Is that really the only yardstick (or even the one that matters most)?
Doesn't a consistent voting record have value?
Is there no benefit to OPPOSING things in Congress?
is there no benefit to elected officials using bully pulpit to organize public sentiment?

She's a rabble rousing Freedom Caucus member seeking to force the GOP to be more attentive to the platform agenda. So was RDS. They had virtually identical voting records.

So you can criticize her eloquence and her choice of where to draw the battle lines. But she's hardly outside the mainstream with her views/votes. A good leaders can figure out ways to put her combatitiveness to good use. Democrats do it. Why can't we?

(hint: you say she "undermines the majority" yet it is the moderates who are largely responsible for MTG. If you would just vote for the platform agenda, there'd be no oxygen for the Freedom Caucus to exist.)

---

The problem I see is that the Speaker sets the Agenda.
The party Platform IS the agenda; the Speaker is supposed to execute a plan to enact the platform.
The Whip does what it takes to ensure that the Speaker gets the Votes.
If the whip is whipping the base rather than the moderates, that is a sign the Speaker is NOT working the platform. You don't have to whip the base to pass the platform. You have to whip moderates to pass the platform......
The Freedom Caucus and MTG working within the structure is fine, the Grandstanding playing the media to force their hand? No, that just empowers the Dems.
No, it empowers the platform agenda.

The biggest issue I have with the Freedom Caucus is they do not care about anything but their narrow view.
It's called "the platform." The reality of how the Govt runs, keeping the Nation operating or god forbid moving the Nation forward vs Russia, China and Iran is non-existent.
They were elected to enact the platform into law, not empower the other side to get its own platform enacted into law, or to protect things that are at odds with platform agendas.

The Freedom Caucus thinks it is the 94 Revolution and T-Party on Steroids.
Why shouldn't it be? We've got a frickin' disaster not because of a lack of compromise but because Democrats passed bad law!
What they fail to realize was that both those movements attacked Dem Administrations. TThe Freedom Caucus that will shut down the Govt and burn it down if it doesn't get its way and is attacking its own Party! .....to stop their own party from helping Democrats enact bad policy! Stopping bad stuff from getting enacted into law is a core job requirement of a Congresscritter. Democrats do a very good job of it against us. Why should we not return the favor?

She and her cronies don't work within the GOP system and are willing to attack the Speaker when THEY have power!
Why shouldn't a speaker who breaks promises to his/her caucus be attacked? Exactly what does it look like when the speaker whips the base too hard? Isn't the base allowed to bite back?
MTG and the Freedom Caucus is a dream come true for the Dems. They love her taking the knees out from under the Speaker and letting the Dems "save" him. She and her group are idiots that do more damage than good. Voting is one part of being a Congressperson.
Dems are scared of the FC. "if you're taking flack, you're over the target....." Remember that one?

---

You are just making an appeal to teamwork and civility, which do have a time and place, just not when a majority of Republicans are demanding better (more conservative) leadership.

---

You also keep referring to MTG as the Whip, she is not. I have no problem with the Whip doing their job, most of the time they operate behind the scenes. I can't think of a well known Whip since Gingrich.

You also keep referring to MTG and MAGA as the "base", we disagree. The whole MAGA/Gang of 8 are on the fringe, not the base. That is why Gaetz was only able to get those 8 votes, a quirky House rule (which will never get passed again) and the small number of GOP Majority is what allowed it to happen. You keep acting like it was "base" movement, it was not. It was 8 of over 279. That is not the base... MTG HAD LESS. A quirk of rule making that got passed is the only reason this small minority of the GOP has any voice at all. You are mistaken that quirk for the base. Without that rule, you hear NOTHING from this crowd but MTG's shrill *****ing and Gaetz's scheming.

---

Every member of the caucus will whip what they can. Some do it behind the scenes. Some for the cameras. Each method has its time and place. In that context, the FC exist almost exclusive as a bulwark AGAINST whipping by moderate Speakers, to push back and force more accommodation of platform objectives.

The vote total did not reflect what you presume. There are dozens of members who shared exactly MTG's views on the Speaker's actions. They just didn't want to have another protracted speaker fight. MTG, if you remember, stuck with McCarthy all the way to the end. She didn't do that because she agreed with McCarthy on issues. She did it because she had carved out a role for herself under McCarthy and didn't see a similar space available under a new speaker.

You keep avoiding the obvious - if you want the FC to go away, just keep putting platform agenda items up for votes and quit making compromises that hand Democrats their platform agenda at the expense of ours. I'm perfectly happy with a Congress that does nothing except shooting down every bill the Democrats propose. We'd be way better off than having all those expensive compromises we keep getting that gut the country in so many ways. That's what Dems do. Just put their platform agenda up for a vote. Why can't we do that?

---

You keep going to the "presume", "not what it looks like", etc... The bottomline is that there are too many factions only concerned with their slice of the pie.
It has always been so and always will be. It's easy to work with your own base. You know what they want and broadly agree with them. So if you find yourself whipping them....isn't that a sign something is wrong with the bill you're whipping them about?

At least at the GOP should find items THEY agree on and put together an Agenda. Hell, the Border that is a no brainer...

We do agree on your last point, they need to put the Agenda to a vote. That is where the strength of the majority can work.

---

We do agree on and put together an agenda. We do it every 2 years at Party Conventions = write a platform. We do it every 4 years at a National Convention. Weeks writing rules for the convention(s) before the first gavel falls. Months arguing about platform planks before the first gavel falls. And then, the platform is passed at a national convention, with strong influence from the Presidential nominee (who gets nearly every thing they want). So we do have an agenda. The only question is, will our elected officials execute on it. Far too often, they don't. Ergo the rise of the FC.

The FC exists solely due to broad dissatisfaction with GOP leadership. If GOP leadership is conservative enough, the FC will have no oxygen to survive.

---

Well, as we expected, it boils down to that. That we do agree on that. We have a Platform, execute it.

---

---

Here it is, 2020 GOP Platform. Pick one that the whole GOP will get behind and push through...

JOBS

• Create 10 Million New Jobs in 10 Months
• Create 1 Million New Small Businesses
• Cut Taxes to Boost Take-Home Pay and Keep Jobs in America
• Enact Fair Trade Deals that Protect American Jobs
• 'Made in America' Tax Credits
• Expand Opportunity Zones
• Continue Deregulatory Agenda for Energy Independence

ERADICATE COVID-19

• Develop a Vaccine by The End Of 2020
• Return to Normal in 2021
• Make All Critical Medicines and Supplies for Healthcare Workers in The United States
• Refill Stockpiles and Prepare for Future Pandemics

END OUR RELIANCE ON CHINA

• Bring Back 1 Million Manufacturing Jobs from China
• Tax Credits for Companies that Bring Back Jobs from China
• Allow 100% Expensing Deductions for Essential Industries like Pharmaceuticals and Robotics who Bring *Back their Manufacturing to the United States
• No Federal Contracts for Companies who Outsource to China
• Hold China Fully Accountable for Allowing the Virus to Spread around the World

HEALTHCARE

• Cut Prescription Drug Prices
• Put Patients and Doctors Back in Charge of our Healthcare System
• Lower Healthcare Insurance Premiums
• End Surprise Billing
• Cover All Pre-Existing Conditions
• Protect Social Security and Medicare
• Protect Our Veterans and Provide World-Class Healthcare and Services

EDUCATION

• Provide School Choice to Every Child in America
• Teach American Exceptionalism

DRAIN THE SWAMP

• Pass Congressional Term Limits
• End Bureaucratic Government Bullying of U.S. Citizens and Small Businesses
• Expose Washington's Money Trail and Delegate Powers Back to People and States
• Drain the Globalist Swamp by Taking on International Organizations That Hurt American Citizens

DEFEND OUR POLICE

• Fully Fund and Hire More Police and Law Enforcement Officers
• Increase Criminal Penalties for Assaults on Law Enforcement Officers
• Prosecute Drive-By Shootings as Acts of Domestic Terrorism
• Bring Violent Extremist Groups Like ANTIFA to Justice
• End Cashless Bail and Keep Dangerous Criminals Locked Up until Trial

END ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION AND PROTECT AMERICAN WORKERS

• Block Illegal Immigrants from Becoming Eligible for Taxpayer-Funded Welfare, Healthcare, and Free College Tuition
• Mandatory Deportation for Non-Citizen Gang Members
• Dismantle Human Trafficking Networks
• End Sanctuary Cities to Restore our Neighborhoods and Protect our Families
• Prohibit American Companies from Replacing United States Citizens with Lower-Cost Foreign Workers
• Require New Immigrants to Be Able to Support Themselves Financially

INNOVATE FOR THE FUTURE

• Launch Space Force, Establish Permanent Manned Presence on The Moon and Send the First Manned Mission to Mars
• Build the World's Greatest Infrastructure System
• Win the Race to 5G and Establish a National High-Speed Wireless Internet Network
• Continue to Lead the World in Access to the Cleanest Drinking Water and Cleanest Air
• Partner with Other Nations to Clean Up our Planet's Oceans

AMERICA FIRST FOREIGN POLICY

• Stop Endless Wars and Bring Our Troops Home
• Get Allies to Pay their Fair Share
• Maintain and Expand America's Unrivaled Military Strength
• Wipe Out Global Terrorists Who Threaten to Harm Americans
• Build a Great Cybersecurity Defense System and Missile Defense System

DEFEND AMERICAN VALUES

• Continue nominating constitutionalist Supreme Court and lower court judges
• Protect unborn life through every means available
• Defend the freedoms of religious believers and organizations
• Support the exercise of Second Amendment rights[url=https://ballotpedia.org/The_Republican_Party_Platform,_2020#cite_note-quotedisclaimer-7][7][/url]

"

---

That is a summary
Do you have the actual words?

---

I don't need to be picky, I know attorneys like that, but I am good with an idea. Pick one, show the GOP can come together and push it through...

---

Should Texas GOP push this through?


To be elected to state office, a candidate must win not only a majority of votes, but also more than half of Texas's 254 counties. Democrats in Texas are concentrated in a few urban areas, while Republicans are spread across the map. This system would effectively mean Democrats would be shut out forever.

---

only if they refuse to listen to all the little people

If you really are a moderate and like cooperation & all that across the aisle stuff, you should love this idea.

I have thrown in the towel on Presidential election. About to do same on Congress after watching embarrassing hearings the last two years. It is like children in third grade.

Aliceinbubbleland said:

---

I have thrown in the towel on Presidential election. About to do same on Congress after watching embarrassing hearings the last two years. It is like children in third grade.

---

The easiest way to explain it is that they don't want to give up their grifting capabilities which they would have to do in order to represent the voters.

We kind of have a quasi kleptocracy.

whiterock said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

look at the implicit premise of your measure of effectiveness: number of bills passed.

Is that really the only yardstick (or even the one that matters most)?
Doesn't a consistent voting record have value?
Is there no benefit to OPPOSING things in Congress?
is there no benefit to elected officials using bully pulpit to organize public sentiment?

She's a rabble rousing Freedom Caucus member seeking to force the GOP to be more attentive to the platform agenda. So was RDS. They had virtually identical voting records.

So you can criticize her eloquence and her choice of where to draw the battle lines. But she's hardly outside the mainstream with her views/votes. A good leaders can figure out ways to put her combatitiveness to good use. Democrats do it. Why can't we?

(hint: you say she "undermines the majority" yet it is the moderates who are largely responsible for MTG. If you would just vote for the platform agenda, there'd be no oxygen for the Freedom Caucus to exist.)

---

The problem I see is that the Speaker sets the Agenda.
The party Platform IS the agenda; the Speaker is supposed to execute a plan to enact the platform.
The Whip does what it takes to ensure that the Speaker gets the Votes.
If the whip is whipping the base rather than the moderates, that is a sign the Speaker is NOT working the platform. You don't have to whip the base to pass the platform. You have to whip moderates to pass the platform......
The Freedom Caucus and MTG working within the structure is fine, the Grandstanding playing the media to force their hand? No, that just empowers the Dems.
No, it empowers the platform agenda.

The biggest issue I have with the Freedom Caucus is they do not care about anything but their narrow view.
It's called "the platform." The reality of how the Govt runs, keeping the Nation operating or god forbid moving the Nation forward vs Russia, China and Iran is non-existent.
They were elected to enact the platform into law, not empower the other side to get its own platform enacted into law, or to protect things that are at odds with platform agendas.

The Freedom Caucus thinks it is the 94 Revolution and T-Party on Steroids.
Why shouldn't it be? We've got a frickin' disaster not because of a lack of compromise but because Democrats passed bad law!
What they fail to realize was that both those movements attacked Dem Administrations. TThe Freedom Caucus that will shut down the Govt and burn it down if it doesn't get its way and is attacking its own Party! .....to stop their own party from helping Democrats enact bad policy! Stopping bad stuff from getting enacted into law is a core job requirement of a Congresscritter. Democrats do a very good job of it against us. Why should we not return the favor?

She and her cronies don't work within the GOP system and are willing to attack the Speaker when THEY have power!
Why shouldn't a speaker who breaks promises to his/her caucus be attacked? Exactly what does it look like when the speaker whips the base too hard? Isn't the base allowed to bite back?
MTG and the Freedom Caucus is a dream come true for the Dems. They love her taking the knees out from under the Speaker and letting the Dems "save" him. She and her group are idiots that do more damage than good. Voting is one part of being a Congressperson.
Dems are scared of the FC. "if you're taking flack, you're over the target....." Remember that one?

---

You are just making an appeal to teamwork and civility, which do have a time and place, just not when a majority of Republicans are demanding better (more conservative) leadership.

---

You also keep referring to MTG as the Whip, she is not. I have no problem with the Whip doing their job, most of the time they operate behind the scenes. I can't think of a well known Whip since Gingrich.

You also keep referring to MTG and MAGA as the "base", we disagree. The whole MAGA/Gang of 8 are on the fringe, not the base. That is why Gaetz was only able to get those 8 votes, a quirky House rule (which will never get passed again) and the small number of GOP Majority is what allowed it to happen. You keep acting like it was "base" movement, it was not. It was 8 of over 279. That is not the base... MTG HAD LESS. A quirk of rule making that got passed is the only reason this small minority of the GOP has any voice at all. You are mistaken that quirk for the base. Without that rule, you hear NOTHING from this crowd but MTG's shrill *****ing and Gaetz's scheming.

---

Every member of the caucus will whip what they can. Some do it behind the scenes. Some for the cameras. Each method has its time and place. In that context, the FC exist almost exclusive as a bulwark AGAINST whipping by moderate Speakers, to push back and force more accommodation of platform objectives.

The vote total did not reflect what you presume. There are dozens of members who shared exactly MTG's views on the Speaker's actions. They just didn't want to have another protracted speaker fight. MTG, if you remember, stuck with McCarthy all the way to the end. She didn't do that because she agreed with McCarthy on issues. She did it because she had carved out a role for herself under McCarthy and didn't see a similar space available under a new speaker.

You keep avoiding the obvious - if you want the FC to go away, just keep putting platform agenda items up for votes and quit making compromises that hand Democrats their platform agenda at the expense of ours. I'm perfectly happy with a Congress that does nothing except shooting down every bill the Democrats propose. We'd be way better off than having all those expensive compromises we keep getting that gut the country in so many ways. That's what Dems do. Just put their platform agenda up for a vote. Why can't we do that?

---

You keep going to the "presume", "not what it looks like", etc... The bottomline is that there are too many factions only concerned with their slice of the pie.
It has always been so and always will be. It's easy to work with your own base. You know what they want and broadly agree with them. So if you find yourself whipping them....isn't that a sign something is wrong with the bill you're whipping them about?

At least at the GOP should find items THEY agree on and put together an Agenda. Hell, the Border that is a no brainer...

We do agree on your last point, they need to put the Agenda to a vote. That is where the strength of the majority can work.

---

We do agree on and put together an agenda. We do it every 2 years at Party Conventions = write a platform. We do it every 4 years at a National Convention. Weeks writing rules for the convention(s) before the first gavel falls. Months arguing about platform planks before the first gavel falls. And then, the platform is passed at a national convention, with strong influence from the Presidential nominee (who gets nearly every thing they want). So we do have an agenda. The only question is, will our elected officials execute on it. Far too often, they don't. Ergo the rise of the FC.

The FC exists solely due to broad dissatisfaction with GOP leadership. If GOP leadership is conservative enough, the FC will have no oxygen to survive.

---

Well, as we expected, it boils down to that. That we do agree on that. We have a Platform, execute it.

---

---

Here it is, 2020 GOP Platform. Pick one that the whole GOP will get behind and push through...

JOBS

• Create 10 Million New Jobs in 10 Months
• Create 1 Million New Small Businesses
• Cut Taxes to Boost Take-Home Pay and Keep Jobs in America
• Enact Fair Trade Deals that Protect American Jobs
• 'Made in America' Tax Credits
• Expand Opportunity Zones
• Continue Deregulatory Agenda for Energy Independence

ERADICATE COVID-19

• Develop a Vaccine by The End Of 2020
• Return to Normal in 2021
• Make All Critical Medicines and Supplies for Healthcare Workers in The United States
• Refill Stockpiles and Prepare for Future Pandemics

END OUR RELIANCE ON CHINA

• Bring Back 1 Million Manufacturing Jobs from China
• Tax Credits for Companies that Bring Back Jobs from China
• Allow 100% Expensing Deductions for Essential Industries like Pharmaceuticals and Robotics who Bring *Back their Manufacturing to the United States
• No Federal Contracts for Companies who Outsource to China
• Hold China Fully Accountable for Allowing the Virus to Spread around the World

HEALTHCARE

• Cut Prescription Drug Prices
• Put Patients and Doctors Back in Charge of our Healthcare System
• Lower Healthcare Insurance Premiums
• End Surprise Billing
• Cover All Pre-Existing Conditions
• Protect Social Security and Medicare
• Protect Our Veterans and Provide World-Class Healthcare and Services

EDUCATION

• Provide School Choice to Every Child in America
• Teach American Exceptionalism

DRAIN THE SWAMP

• Pass Congressional Term Limits
• End Bureaucratic Government Bullying of U.S. Citizens and Small Businesses
• Expose Washington's Money Trail and Delegate Powers Back to People and States
• Drain the Globalist Swamp by Taking on International Organizations That Hurt American Citizens

DEFEND OUR POLICE

• Fully Fund and Hire More Police and Law Enforcement Officers
• Increase Criminal Penalties for Assaults on Law Enforcement Officers
• Prosecute Drive-By Shootings as Acts of Domestic Terrorism
• Bring Violent Extremist Groups Like ANTIFA to Justice
• End Cashless Bail and Keep Dangerous Criminals Locked Up until Trial

END ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION AND PROTECT AMERICAN WORKERS

• Block Illegal Immigrants from Becoming Eligible for Taxpayer-Funded Welfare, Healthcare, and Free College Tuition
• Mandatory Deportation for Non-Citizen Gang Members
• Dismantle Human Trafficking Networks
• End Sanctuary Cities to Restore our Neighborhoods and Protect our Families
• Prohibit American Companies from Replacing United States Citizens with Lower-Cost Foreign Workers
• Require New Immigrants to Be Able to Support Themselves Financially

INNOVATE FOR THE FUTURE

• Launch Space Force, Establish Permanent Manned Presence on The Moon and Send the First Manned Mission to Mars
• Build the World's Greatest Infrastructure System
• Win the Race to 5G and Establish a National High-Speed Wireless Internet Network
• Continue to Lead the World in Access to the Cleanest Drinking Water and Cleanest Air
• Partner with Other Nations to Clean Up our Planet's Oceans

AMERICA FIRST FOREIGN POLICY

• Stop Endless Wars and Bring Our Troops Home
• Get Allies to Pay their Fair Share
• Maintain and Expand America's Unrivaled Military Strength
• Wipe Out Global Terrorists Who Threaten to Harm Americans
• Build a Great Cybersecurity Defense System and Missile Defense System

DEFEND AMERICAN VALUES

• Continue nominating constitutionalist Supreme Court and lower court judges
• Protect unborn life through every means available
• Defend the freedoms of religious believers and organizations
• Support the exercise of Second Amendment rights[url=https://ballotpedia.org/The_Republican_Party_Platform,_2020#cite_note-quotedisclaimer-7][7][/url]

"

---

That is a summary
Do you have the actual words?

---

I don't need to be picky, I know attorneys like that, but I am good with an idea. Pick one, show the GOP can come together and push it through...

---

Should Texas GOP push this through?


To be elected to state office, a candidate must win not only a majority of votes, but also more than half of Texas's 254 counties. Democrats in Texas are concentrated in a few urban areas, while Republicans are spread across the map. This system would effectively mean Democrats would be shut out forever.

---

only if they refuse to listen to all the little people

If you really are a moderate and like cooperation & all that across the aisle stuff, you should love this idea.

---

1. Who determines if "they refuse to listen to all of the little people"?
2. Who are the "little people"?
3. Doesn't this run afoul of the Constitution (1 man, 1 vote)?
4. Are Republicans going to demand R legislators pass this into law?

whiterock said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

look at the implicit premise of your measure of effectiveness: number of bills passed.

Is that really the only yardstick (or even the one that matters most)?
Doesn't a consistent voting record have value?
Is there no benefit to OPPOSING things in Congress?
is there no benefit to elected officials using bully pulpit to organize public sentiment?

She's a rabble rousing Freedom Caucus member seeking to force the GOP to be more attentive to the platform agenda. So was RDS. They had virtually identical voting records.

So you can criticize her eloquence and her choice of where to draw the battle lines. But she's hardly outside the mainstream with her views/votes. A good leaders can figure out ways to put her combatitiveness to good use. Democrats do it. Why can't we?

(hint: you say she "undermines the majority" yet it is the moderates who are largely responsible for MTG. If you would just vote for the platform agenda, there'd be no oxygen for the Freedom Caucus to exist.)

---

The problem I see is that the Speaker sets the Agenda.
The party Platform IS the agenda; the Speaker is supposed to execute a plan to enact the platform.
The Whip does what it takes to ensure that the Speaker gets the Votes.
If the whip is whipping the base rather than the moderates, that is a sign the Speaker is NOT working the platform. You don't have to whip the base to pass the platform. You have to whip moderates to pass the platform......
The Freedom Caucus and MTG working within the structure is fine, the Grandstanding playing the media to force their hand? No, that just empowers the Dems.
No, it empowers the platform agenda.

The biggest issue I have with the Freedom Caucus is they do not care about anything but their narrow view.
It's called "the platform." The reality of how the Govt runs, keeping the Nation operating or god forbid moving the Nation forward vs Russia, China and Iran is non-existent.
They were elected to enact the platform into law, not empower the other side to get its own platform enacted into law, or to protect things that are at odds with platform agendas.

The Freedom Caucus thinks it is the 94 Revolution and T-Party on Steroids.
Why shouldn't it be? We've got a frickin' disaster not because of a lack of compromise but because Democrats passed bad law!
What they fail to realize was that both those movements attacked Dem Administrations. TThe Freedom Caucus that will shut down the Govt and burn it down if it doesn't get its way and is attacking its own Party! .....to stop their own party from helping Democrats enact bad policy! Stopping bad stuff from getting enacted into law is a core job requirement of a Congresscritter. Democrats do a very good job of it against us. Why should we not return the favor?

She and her cronies don't work within the GOP system and are willing to attack the Speaker when THEY have power!
Why shouldn't a speaker who breaks promises to his/her caucus be attacked? Exactly what does it look like when the speaker whips the base too hard? Isn't the base allowed to bite back?
MTG and the Freedom Caucus is a dream come true for the Dems. They love her taking the knees out from under the Speaker and letting the Dems "save" him. She and her group are idiots that do more damage than good. Voting is one part of being a Congressperson.
Dems are scared of the FC. "if you're taking flack, you're over the target....." Remember that one?

---

You are just making an appeal to teamwork and civility, which do have a time and place, just not when a majority of Republicans are demanding better (more conservative) leadership.

---

You also keep referring to MTG as the Whip, she is not. I have no problem with the Whip doing their job, most of the time they operate behind the scenes. I can't think of a well known Whip since Gingrich.

You also keep referring to MTG and MAGA as the "base", we disagree. The whole MAGA/Gang of 8 are on the fringe, not the base. That is why Gaetz was only able to get those 8 votes, a quirky House rule (which will never get passed again) and the small number of GOP Majority is what allowed it to happen. You keep acting like it was "base" movement, it was not. It was 8 of over 279. That is not the base... MTG HAD LESS. A quirk of rule making that got passed is the only reason this small minority of the GOP has any voice at all. You are mistaken that quirk for the base. Without that rule, you hear NOTHING from this crowd but MTG's shrill *****ing and Gaetz's scheming.

---

Every member of the caucus will whip what they can. Some do it behind the scenes. Some for the cameras. Each method has its time and place. In that context, the FC exist almost exclusive as a bulwark AGAINST whipping by moderate Speakers, to push back and force more accommodation of platform objectives.

The vote total did not reflect what you presume. There are dozens of members who shared exactly MTG's views on the Speaker's actions. They just didn't want to have another protracted speaker fight. MTG, if you remember, stuck with McCarthy all the way to the end. She didn't do that because she agreed with McCarthy on issues. She did it because she had carved out a role for herself under McCarthy and didn't see a similar space available under a new speaker.

You keep avoiding the obvious - if you want the FC to go away, just keep putting platform agenda items up for votes and quit making compromises that hand Democrats their platform agenda at the expense of ours. I'm perfectly happy with a Congress that does nothing except shooting down every bill the Democrats propose. We'd be way better off than having all those expensive compromises we keep getting that gut the country in so many ways. That's what Dems do. Just put their platform agenda up for a vote. Why can't we do that?

---

You keep going to the "presume", "not what it looks like", etc... The bottomline is that there are too many factions only concerned with their slice of the pie.
It has always been so and always will be. It's easy to work with your own base. You know what they want and broadly agree with them. So if you find yourself whipping them....isn't that a sign something is wrong with the bill you're whipping them about?

At least at the GOP should find items THEY agree on and put together an Agenda. Hell, the Border that is a no brainer...

We do agree on your last point, they need to put the Agenda to a vote. That is where the strength of the majority can work.

---

We do agree on and put together an agenda. We do it every 2 years at Party Conventions = write a platform. We do it every 4 years at a National Convention. Weeks writing rules for the convention(s) before the first gavel falls. Months arguing about platform planks before the first gavel falls. And then, the platform is passed at a national convention, with strong influence from the Presidential nominee (who gets nearly every thing they want). So we do have an agenda. The only question is, will our elected officials execute on it. Far too often, they don't. Ergo the rise of the FC.

The FC exists solely due to broad dissatisfaction with GOP leadership. If GOP leadership is conservative enough, the FC will have no oxygen to survive.

---

Well, as we expected, it boils down to that. That we do agree on that. We have a Platform, execute it.

---

---

Here it is, 2020 GOP Platform. Pick one that the whole GOP will get behind and push through...

JOBS

• Create 10 Million New Jobs in 10 Months
• Create 1 Million New Small Businesses
• Cut Taxes to Boost Take-Home Pay and Keep Jobs in America
• Enact Fair Trade Deals that Protect American Jobs
• 'Made in America' Tax Credits
• Expand Opportunity Zones
• Continue Deregulatory Agenda for Energy Independence

ERADICATE COVID-19

• Develop a Vaccine by The End Of 2020
• Return to Normal in 2021
• Make All Critical Medicines and Supplies for Healthcare Workers in The United States
• Refill Stockpiles and Prepare for Future Pandemics

END OUR RELIANCE ON CHINA

• Bring Back 1 Million Manufacturing Jobs from China
• Tax Credits for Companies that Bring Back Jobs from China
• Allow 100% Expensing Deductions for Essential Industries like Pharmaceuticals and Robotics who Bring *Back their Manufacturing to the United States
• No Federal Contracts for Companies who Outsource to China
• Hold China Fully Accountable for Allowing the Virus to Spread around the World

HEALTHCARE

• Cut Prescription Drug Prices
• Put Patients and Doctors Back in Charge of our Healthcare System
• Lower Healthcare Insurance Premiums
• End Surprise Billing
• Cover All Pre-Existing Conditions
• Protect Social Security and Medicare
• Protect Our Veterans and Provide World-Class Healthcare and Services

EDUCATION

• Provide School Choice to Every Child in America
• Teach American Exceptionalism

DRAIN THE SWAMP

• Pass Congressional Term Limits
• End Bureaucratic Government Bullying of U.S. Citizens and Small Businesses
• Expose Washington's Money Trail and Delegate Powers Back to People and States
• Drain the Globalist Swamp by Taking on International Organizations That Hurt American Citizens

DEFEND OUR POLICE

• Fully Fund and Hire More Police and Law Enforcement Officers
• Increase Criminal Penalties for Assaults on Law Enforcement Officers
• Prosecute Drive-By Shootings as Acts of Domestic Terrorism
• Bring Violent Extremist Groups Like ANTIFA to Justice
• End Cashless Bail and Keep Dangerous Criminals Locked Up until Trial

END ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION AND PROTECT AMERICAN WORKERS

• Block Illegal Immigrants from Becoming Eligible for Taxpayer-Funded Welfare, Healthcare, and Free College Tuition
• Mandatory Deportation for Non-Citizen Gang Members
• Dismantle Human Trafficking Networks
• End Sanctuary Cities to Restore our Neighborhoods and Protect our Families
• Prohibit American Companies from Replacing United States Citizens with Lower-Cost Foreign Workers
• Require New Immigrants to Be Able to Support Themselves Financially

INNOVATE FOR THE FUTURE

• Launch Space Force, Establish Permanent Manned Presence on The Moon and Send the First Manned Mission to Mars
• Build the World's Greatest Infrastructure System
• Win the Race to 5G and Establish a National High-Speed Wireless Internet Network
• Continue to Lead the World in Access to the Cleanest Drinking Water and Cleanest Air
• Partner with Other Nations to Clean Up our Planet's Oceans

AMERICA FIRST FOREIGN POLICY

• Stop Endless Wars and Bring Our Troops Home
• Get Allies to Pay their Fair Share
• Maintain and Expand America's Unrivaled Military Strength
• Wipe Out Global Terrorists Who Threaten to Harm Americans
• Build a Great Cybersecurity Defense System and Missile Defense System

DEFEND AMERICAN VALUES

• Continue nominating constitutionalist Supreme Court and lower court judges
• Protect unborn life through every means available
• Defend the freedoms of religious believers and organizations
• Support the exercise of Second Amendment rights[url=https://ballotpedia.org/The_Republican_Party_Platform,_2020#cite_note-quotedisclaimer-7][7][/url]

"

---

That is a summary
Do you have the actual words?

---

I don't need to be picky, I know attorneys like that, but I am good with an idea. Pick one, show the GOP can come together and push it through...

---

Should Texas GOP push this through?


To be elected to state office, a candidate must win not only a majority of votes, but also more than half of Texas's 254 counties. Democrats in Texas are concentrated in a few urban areas, while Republicans are spread across the map. This system would effectively mean Democrats would be shut out forever.

---

only if they refuse to listen to all the little people

If you really are a moderate and like cooperation & all that across the aisle stuff, you should love this idea.

---

Let's try another plank from the Republican platform: the Bible should be taught in public schools, with chaplains on hand to counsel and give guidance from a traditional biblical perspective based on Judeo-Christian principles.

Osodecentx said:

---

Let's try another plank from the Republican platform: the Bible should be taught in public schools, with chaplains on hand to counsel and give guidance from a traditional biblical perspective based on Judeo-Christian principles.

---

I'd have no problem with that except the person teaching probably has no more idea what Scripture means than Paxton.

FLBear5630 said:

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Osodecentx said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Osodecentx said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Osodecentx said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Osodecentx said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Osodecentx said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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whiterock said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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whiterock said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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whiterock said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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whiterock said:

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look at the implicit premise of your measure of effectiveness: number of bills passed.

Is that really the only yardstick (or even the one that matters most)?
Doesn't a consistent voting record have value?
Is there no benefit to OPPOSING things in Congress?
is there no benefit to elected officials using bully pulpit to organize public sentiment?

She's a rabble rousing Freedom Caucus member seeking to force the GOP to be more attentive to the platform agenda. So was RDS. They had virtually identical voting records.

So you can criticize her eloquence and her choice of where to draw the battle lines. But she's hardly outside the mainstream with her views/votes. A good leaders can figure out ways to put her combatitiveness to good use. Democrats do it. Why can't we?

(hint: you say she "undermines the majority" yet it is the moderates who are largely responsible for MTG. If you would just vote for the platform agenda, there'd be no oxygen for the Freedom Caucus to exist.)

---

The problem I see is that the Speaker sets the Agenda.
The party Platform IS the agenda; the Speaker is supposed to execute a plan to enact the platform.
The Whip does what it takes to ensure that the Speaker gets the Votes.
If the whip is whipping the base rather than the moderates, that is a sign the Speaker is NOT working the platform. You don't have to whip the base to pass the platform. You have to whip moderates to pass the platform......
The Freedom Caucus and MTG working within the structure is fine, the Grandstanding playing the media to force their hand? No, that just empowers the Dems.
No, it empowers the platform agenda.

The biggest issue I have with the Freedom Caucus is they do not care about anything but their narrow view.
It's called "the platform." The reality of how the Govt runs, keeping the Nation operating or god forbid moving the Nation forward vs Russia, China and Iran is non-existent.
They were elected to enact the platform into law, not empower the other side to get its own platform enacted into law, or to protect things that are at odds with platform agendas.

The Freedom Caucus thinks it is the 94 Revolution and T-Party on Steroids.
Why shouldn't it be? We've got a frickin' disaster not because of a lack of compromise but because Democrats passed bad law!
What they fail to realize was that both those movements attacked Dem Administrations. TThe Freedom Caucus that will shut down the Govt and burn it down if it doesn't get its way and is attacking its own Party! .....to stop their own party from helping Democrats enact bad policy! Stopping bad stuff from getting enacted into law is a core job requirement of a Congresscritter. Democrats do a very good job of it against us. Why should we not return the favor?

She and her cronies don't work within the GOP system and are willing to attack the Speaker when THEY have power!
Why shouldn't a speaker who breaks promises to his/her caucus be attacked? Exactly what does it look like when the speaker whips the base too hard? Isn't the base allowed to bite back?
MTG and the Freedom Caucus is a dream come true for the Dems. They love her taking the knees out from under the Speaker and letting the Dems "save" him. She and her group are idiots that do more damage than good. Voting is one part of being a Congressperson.
Dems are scared of the FC. "if you're taking flack, you're over the target....." Remember that one?

---

You are just making an appeal to teamwork and civility, which do have a time and place, just not when a majority of Republicans are demanding better (more conservative) leadership.

---

You also keep referring to MTG as the Whip, she is not. I have no problem with the Whip doing their job, most of the time they operate behind the scenes. I can't think of a well known Whip since Gingrich.

You also keep referring to MTG and MAGA as the "base", we disagree. The whole MAGA/Gang of 8 are on the fringe, not the base. That is why Gaetz was only able to get those 8 votes, a quirky House rule (which will never get passed again) and the small number of GOP Majority is what allowed it to happen. You keep acting like it was "base" movement, it was not. It was 8 of over 279. That is not the base... MTG HAD LESS. A quirk of rule making that got passed is the only reason this small minority of the GOP has any voice at all. You are mistaken that quirk for the base. Without that rule, you hear NOTHING from this crowd but MTG's shrill *****ing and Gaetz's scheming.

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Every member of the caucus will whip what they can. Some do it behind the scenes. Some for the cameras. Each method has its time and place. In that context, the FC exist almost exclusive as a bulwark AGAINST whipping by moderate Speakers, to push back and force more accommodation of platform objectives.

The vote total did not reflect what you presume. There are dozens of members who shared exactly MTG's views on the Speaker's actions. They just didn't want to have another protracted speaker fight. MTG, if you remember, stuck with McCarthy all the way to the end. She didn't do that because she agreed with McCarthy on issues. She did it because she had carved out a role for herself under McCarthy and didn't see a similar space available under a new speaker.

You keep avoiding the obvious - if you want the FC to go away, just keep putting platform agenda items up for votes and quit making compromises that hand Democrats their platform agenda at the expense of ours. I'm perfectly happy with a Congress that does nothing except shooting down every bill the Democrats propose. We'd be way better off than having all those expensive compromises we keep getting that gut the country in so many ways. That's what Dems do. Just put their platform agenda up for a vote. Why can't we do that?

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You keep going to the "presume", "not what it looks like", etc... The bottomline is that there are too many factions only concerned with their slice of the pie.
It has always been so and always will be. It's easy to work with your own base. You know what they want and broadly agree with them. So if you find yourself whipping them....isn't that a sign something is wrong with the bill you're whipping them about?

At least at the GOP should find items THEY agree on and put together an Agenda. Hell, the Border that is a no brainer...

We do agree on your last point, they need to put the Agenda to a vote. That is where the strength of the majority can work.

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We do agree on and put together an agenda. We do it every 2 years at Party Conventions = write a platform. We do it every 4 years at a National Convention. Weeks writing rules for the convention(s) before the first gavel falls. Months arguing about platform planks before the first gavel falls. And then, the platform is passed at a national convention, with strong influence from the Presidential nominee (who gets nearly every thing they want). So we do have an agenda. The only question is, will our elected officials execute on it. Far too often, they don't. Ergo the rise of the FC.

The FC exists solely due to broad dissatisfaction with GOP leadership. If GOP leadership is conservative enough, the FC will have no oxygen to survive.

---

Well, as we expected, it boils down to that. That we do agree on that. We have a Platform, execute it.

---

---

Here it is, 2020 GOP Platform. Pick one that the whole GOP will get behind and push through...

JOBS

• Create 10 Million New Jobs in 10 Months
• Create 1 Million New Small Businesses
• Cut Taxes to Boost Take-Home Pay and Keep Jobs in America
• Enact Fair Trade Deals that Protect American Jobs
• 'Made in America' Tax Credits
• Expand Opportunity Zones
• Continue Deregulatory Agenda for Energy Independence

ERADICATE COVID-19

• Develop a Vaccine by The End Of 2020
• Return to Normal in 2021
• Make All Critical Medicines and Supplies for Healthcare Workers in The United States
• Refill Stockpiles and Prepare for Future Pandemics

END OUR RELIANCE ON CHINA

• Bring Back 1 Million Manufacturing Jobs from China
• Tax Credits for Companies that Bring Back Jobs from China
• Allow 100% Expensing Deductions for Essential Industries like Pharmaceuticals and Robotics who Bring *Back their Manufacturing to the United States
• No Federal Contracts for Companies who Outsource to China
• Hold China Fully Accountable for Allowing the Virus to Spread around the World

HEALTHCARE

• Cut Prescription Drug Prices
• Put Patients and Doctors Back in Charge of our Healthcare System
• Lower Healthcare Insurance Premiums
• End Surprise Billing
• Cover All Pre-Existing Conditions
• Protect Social Security and Medicare
• Protect Our Veterans and Provide World-Class Healthcare and Services

EDUCATION

• Provide School Choice to Every Child in America
• Teach American Exceptionalism

DRAIN THE SWAMP

• Pass Congressional Term Limits
• End Bureaucratic Government Bullying of U.S. Citizens and Small Businesses
• Expose Washington's Money Trail and Delegate Powers Back to People and States
• Drain the Globalist Swamp by Taking on International Organizations That Hurt American Citizens

DEFEND OUR POLICE

• Fully Fund and Hire More Police and Law Enforcement Officers
• Increase Criminal Penalties for Assaults on Law Enforcement Officers
• Prosecute Drive-By Shootings as Acts of Domestic Terrorism
• Bring Violent Extremist Groups Like ANTIFA to Justice
• End Cashless Bail and Keep Dangerous Criminals Locked Up until Trial

END ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION AND PROTECT AMERICAN WORKERS

• Block Illegal Immigrants from Becoming Eligible for Taxpayer-Funded Welfare, Healthcare, and Free College Tuition
• Mandatory Deportation for Non-Citizen Gang Members
• Dismantle Human Trafficking Networks
• End Sanctuary Cities to Restore our Neighborhoods and Protect our Families
• Prohibit American Companies from Replacing United States Citizens with Lower-Cost Foreign Workers
• Require New Immigrants to Be Able to Support Themselves Financially

INNOVATE FOR THE FUTURE

• Launch Space Force, Establish Permanent Manned Presence on The Moon and Send the First Manned Mission to Mars
• Build the World's Greatest Infrastructure System
• Win the Race to 5G and Establish a National High-Speed Wireless Internet Network
• Continue to Lead the World in Access to the Cleanest Drinking Water and Cleanest Air
• Partner with Other Nations to Clean Up our Planet's Oceans

AMERICA FIRST FOREIGN POLICY

• Stop Endless Wars and Bring Our Troops Home
• Get Allies to Pay their Fair Share
• Maintain and Expand America's Unrivaled Military Strength
• Wipe Out Global Terrorists Who Threaten to Harm Americans
• Build a Great Cybersecurity Defense System and Missile Defense System

DEFEND AMERICAN VALUES

• Continue nominating constitutionalist Supreme Court and lower court judges
• Protect unborn life through every means available
• Defend the freedoms of religious believers and organizations
• Support the exercise of Second Amendment rights[url=https://ballotpedia.org/The_Republican_Party_Platform,_2020#cite_note-quotedisclaimer-7][7][/url]

"

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That is a summary
Do you have the actual words?

---

I don't need to be picky, I know attorneys like that, but I am good with an idea. Pick one, show the GOP can come together and push it through...

---

Should Texas GOP push this through?


To be elected to state office, a candidate must win not only a majority of votes, but also more than half of Texas's 254 counties. Democrats in Texas are concentrated in a few urban areas, while Republicans are spread across the map. This system would effectively mean Democrats would be shut out forever.

---

Depends, State Senate yes. Representative no.

My logic that Senators represent the whole state. Reps represent a geographic area.

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I think you mean US Senate

Wow! You are a Texas Republican

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Sorry, I keep mixing US with Texas.

---

No problem. What do you think of this plank in the Texas Republican platform?

To be elected to state office, a candidate must win not only a majority of votes, but also more than half of Texas's 254 counties. Democrats in Texas are concentrated in a few urban areas, while Republicans are spread across the map. This system would effectively mean Democrats would be shut out forever.

---

I think the concept holds, if it is to represent a specific District. No, just that District.

If it is a Statewide position, yes. Should not have one area picking. It would also force getting out to the areas the are not well represented

---

I guess it is a moot point anyway.
If it is a statewide position, the Republican platform wouldn't let you vote directly for any candidate. It would establish an electoral college that would elect statewide office holders.

Osodecentx said:

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whiterock said:

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Osodecentx said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Osodecentx said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Osodecentx said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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whiterock said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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whiterock said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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whiterock said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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whiterock said:

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look at the implicit premise of your measure of effectiveness: number of bills passed.

Is that really the only yardstick (or even the one that matters most)?
Doesn't a consistent voting record have value?
Is there no benefit to OPPOSING things in Congress?
is there no benefit to elected officials using bully pulpit to organize public sentiment?

She's a rabble rousing Freedom Caucus member seeking to force the GOP to be more attentive to the platform agenda. So was RDS. They had virtually identical voting records.

So you can criticize her eloquence and her choice of where to draw the battle lines. But she's hardly outside the mainstream with her views/votes. A good leaders can figure out ways to put her combatitiveness to good use. Democrats do it. Why can't we?

(hint: you say she "undermines the majority" yet it is the moderates who are largely responsible for MTG. If you would just vote for the platform agenda, there'd be no oxygen for the Freedom Caucus to exist.)

---

The problem I see is that the Speaker sets the Agenda.
The party Platform IS the agenda; the Speaker is supposed to execute a plan to enact the platform.
The Whip does what it takes to ensure that the Speaker gets the Votes.
If the whip is whipping the base rather than the moderates, that is a sign the Speaker is NOT working the platform. You don't have to whip the base to pass the platform. You have to whip moderates to pass the platform......
The Freedom Caucus and MTG working within the structure is fine, the Grandstanding playing the media to force their hand? No, that just empowers the Dems.
No, it empowers the platform agenda.

The biggest issue I have with the Freedom Caucus is they do not care about anything but their narrow view.
It's called "the platform." The reality of how the Govt runs, keeping the Nation operating or god forbid moving the Nation forward vs Russia, China and Iran is non-existent.
They were elected to enact the platform into law, not empower the other side to get its own platform enacted into law, or to protect things that are at odds with platform agendas.

The Freedom Caucus thinks it is the 94 Revolution and T-Party on Steroids.
Why shouldn't it be? We've got a frickin' disaster not because of a lack of compromise but because Democrats passed bad law!
What they fail to realize was that both those movements attacked Dem Administrations. TThe Freedom Caucus that will shut down the Govt and burn it down if it doesn't get its way and is attacking its own Party! .....to stop their own party from helping Democrats enact bad policy! Stopping bad stuff from getting enacted into law is a core job requirement of a Congresscritter. Democrats do a very good job of it against us. Why should we not return the favor?

She and her cronies don't work within the GOP system and are willing to attack the Speaker when THEY have power!
Why shouldn't a speaker who breaks promises to his/her caucus be attacked? Exactly what does it look like when the speaker whips the base too hard? Isn't the base allowed to bite back?
MTG and the Freedom Caucus is a dream come true for the Dems. They love her taking the knees out from under the Speaker and letting the Dems "save" him. She and her group are idiots that do more damage than good. Voting is one part of being a Congressperson.
Dems are scared of the FC. "if you're taking flack, you're over the target....." Remember that one?

---

You are just making an appeal to teamwork and civility, which do have a time and place, just not when a majority of Republicans are demanding better (more conservative) leadership.

---

You also keep referring to MTG as the Whip, she is not. I have no problem with the Whip doing their job, most of the time they operate behind the scenes. I can't think of a well known Whip since Gingrich.

You also keep referring to MTG and MAGA as the "base", we disagree. The whole MAGA/Gang of 8 are on the fringe, not the base. That is why Gaetz was only able to get those 8 votes, a quirky House rule (which will never get passed again) and the small number of GOP Majority is what allowed it to happen. You keep acting like it was "base" movement, it was not. It was 8 of over 279. That is not the base... MTG HAD LESS. A quirk of rule making that got passed is the only reason this small minority of the GOP has any voice at all. You are mistaken that quirk for the base. Without that rule, you hear NOTHING from this crowd but MTG's shrill *****ing and Gaetz's scheming.

---

Every member of the caucus will whip what they can. Some do it behind the scenes. Some for the cameras. Each method has its time and place. In that context, the FC exist almost exclusive as a bulwark AGAINST whipping by moderate Speakers, to push back and force more accommodation of platform objectives.

The vote total did not reflect what you presume. There are dozens of members who shared exactly MTG's views on the Speaker's actions. They just didn't want to have another protracted speaker fight. MTG, if you remember, stuck with McCarthy all the way to the end. She didn't do that because she agreed with McCarthy on issues. She did it because she had carved out a role for herself under McCarthy and didn't see a similar space available under a new speaker.

You keep avoiding the obvious - if you want the FC to go away, just keep putting platform agenda items up for votes and quit making compromises that hand Democrats their platform agenda at the expense of ours. I'm perfectly happy with a Congress that does nothing except shooting down every bill the Democrats propose. We'd be way better off than having all those expensive compromises we keep getting that gut the country in so many ways. That's what Dems do. Just put their platform agenda up for a vote. Why can't we do that?

---

You keep going to the "presume", "not what it looks like", etc... The bottomline is that there are too many factions only concerned with their slice of the pie.
It has always been so and always will be. It's easy to work with your own base. You know what they want and broadly agree with them. So if you find yourself whipping them....isn't that a sign something is wrong with the bill you're whipping them about?

At least at the GOP should find items THEY agree on and put together an Agenda. Hell, the Border that is a no brainer...

We do agree on your last point, they need to put the Agenda to a vote. That is where the strength of the majority can work.

---

We do agree on and put together an agenda. We do it every 2 years at Party Conventions = write a platform. We do it every 4 years at a National Convention. Weeks writing rules for the convention(s) before the first gavel falls. Months arguing about platform planks before the first gavel falls. And then, the platform is passed at a national convention, with strong influence from the Presidential nominee (who gets nearly every thing they want). So we do have an agenda. The only question is, will our elected officials execute on it. Far too often, they don't. Ergo the rise of the FC.

The FC exists solely due to broad dissatisfaction with GOP leadership. If GOP leadership is conservative enough, the FC will have no oxygen to survive.

---

Well, as we expected, it boils down to that. That we do agree on that. We have a Platform, execute it.

---

---

Here it is, 2020 GOP Platform. Pick one that the whole GOP will get behind and push through...

JOBS

• Create 10 Million New Jobs in 10 Months
• Create 1 Million New Small Businesses
• Cut Taxes to Boost Take-Home Pay and Keep Jobs in America
• Enact Fair Trade Deals that Protect American Jobs
• 'Made in America' Tax Credits
• Expand Opportunity Zones
• Continue Deregulatory Agenda for Energy Independence

ERADICATE COVID-19

• Develop a Vaccine by The End Of 2020
• Return to Normal in 2021
• Make All Critical Medicines and Supplies for Healthcare Workers in The United States
• Refill Stockpiles and Prepare for Future Pandemics

END OUR RELIANCE ON CHINA

• Bring Back 1 Million Manufacturing Jobs from China
• Tax Credits for Companies that Bring Back Jobs from China
• Allow 100% Expensing Deductions for Essential Industries like Pharmaceuticals and Robotics who Bring *Back their Manufacturing to the United States
• No Federal Contracts for Companies who Outsource to China
• Hold China Fully Accountable for Allowing the Virus to Spread around the World

HEALTHCARE

• Cut Prescription Drug Prices
• Put Patients and Doctors Back in Charge of our Healthcare System
• Lower Healthcare Insurance Premiums
• End Surprise Billing
• Cover All Pre-Existing Conditions
• Protect Social Security and Medicare
• Protect Our Veterans and Provide World-Class Healthcare and Services

EDUCATION

• Provide School Choice to Every Child in America
• Teach American Exceptionalism

DRAIN THE SWAMP

• Pass Congressional Term Limits
• End Bureaucratic Government Bullying of U.S. Citizens and Small Businesses
• Expose Washington's Money Trail and Delegate Powers Back to People and States
• Drain the Globalist Swamp by Taking on International Organizations That Hurt American Citizens

DEFEND OUR POLICE

• Fully Fund and Hire More Police and Law Enforcement Officers
• Increase Criminal Penalties for Assaults on Law Enforcement Officers
• Prosecute Drive-By Shootings as Acts of Domestic Terrorism
• Bring Violent Extremist Groups Like ANTIFA to Justice
• End Cashless Bail and Keep Dangerous Criminals Locked Up until Trial

END ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION AND PROTECT AMERICAN WORKERS

• Block Illegal Immigrants from Becoming Eligible for Taxpayer-Funded Welfare, Healthcare, and Free College Tuition
• Mandatory Deportation for Non-Citizen Gang Members
• Dismantle Human Trafficking Networks
• End Sanctuary Cities to Restore our Neighborhoods and Protect our Families
• Prohibit American Companies from Replacing United States Citizens with Lower-Cost Foreign Workers
• Require New Immigrants to Be Able to Support Themselves Financially

INNOVATE FOR THE FUTURE

• Launch Space Force, Establish Permanent Manned Presence on The Moon and Send the First Manned Mission to Mars
• Build the World's Greatest Infrastructure System
• Win the Race to 5G and Establish a National High-Speed Wireless Internet Network
• Continue to Lead the World in Access to the Cleanest Drinking Water and Cleanest Air
• Partner with Other Nations to Clean Up our Planet's Oceans

AMERICA FIRST FOREIGN POLICY

• Stop Endless Wars and Bring Our Troops Home
• Get Allies to Pay their Fair Share
• Maintain and Expand America's Unrivaled Military Strength
• Wipe Out Global Terrorists Who Threaten to Harm Americans
• Build a Great Cybersecurity Defense System and Missile Defense System

DEFEND AMERICAN VALUES

• Continue nominating constitutionalist Supreme Court and lower court judges
• Protect unborn life through every means available
• Defend the freedoms of religious believers and organizations
• Support the exercise of Second Amendment rights[url=https://ballotpedia.org/The_Republican_Party_Platform,_2020#cite_note-quotedisclaimer-7][7][/url]

"

---

That is a summary
Do you have the actual words?

---

I don't need to be picky, I know attorneys like that, but I am good with an idea. Pick one, show the GOP can come together and push it through...

---

Should Texas GOP push this through?


To be elected to state office, a candidate must win not only a majority of votes, but also more than half of Texas's 254 counties. Democrats in Texas are concentrated in a few urban areas, while Republicans are spread across the map. This system would effectively mean Democrats would be shut out forever.

---

only if they refuse to listen to all the little people

If you really are a moderate and like cooperation & all that across the aisle stuff, you should love this idea.

---

1. Who determines if "they refuse to listen to all of the little people"?
the election.
2. Who are the "little people"?
people in rural communities, small towns, etc....
3. Doesn't this run afoul of the Constitution (1 man, 1 vote)?
perhaps. why not engage in moral argument to flesh that out rather than recoil in horror?
4. Are Republicans going to demand R legislators pass this into law?
some, perhaps. it usually takes several lege sessions to get stuff passed, and this one will be more contentious than most.

---

The better reform would be to restructure the Texas Senate into a true senate format, representing fixed groups of geographic areas, rather than via apportionment. It would accomplish the same objective, in a far more defensible way.

See what happens when we just talk about things rather than spitting coffee all over the keyboard? I mean, it's not like the growing power of blue urban areas is not itself proving to be a destabilizing influence on rule of law.

FLBear5630 said:

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Osodecentx said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Osodecentx said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Osodecentx said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Osodecentx said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Osodecentx said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Osodecentx said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Osodecentx said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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whiterock said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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whiterock said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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whiterock said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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whiterock said:

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look at the implicit premise of your measure of effectiveness: number of bills passed.

Is that really the only yardstick (or even the one that matters most)?
Doesn't a consistent voting record have value?
Is there no benefit to OPPOSING things in Congress?
is there no benefit to elected officials using bully pulpit to organize public sentiment?

She's a rabble rousing Freedom Caucus member seeking to force the GOP to be more attentive to the platform agenda. So was RDS. They had virtually identical voting records.

So you can criticize her eloquence and her choice of where to draw the battle lines. But she's hardly outside the mainstream with her views/votes. A good leaders can figure out ways to put her combatitiveness to good use. Democrats do it. Why can't we?

(hint: you say she "undermines the majority" yet it is the moderates who are largely responsible for MTG. If you would just vote for the platform agenda, there'd be no oxygen for the Freedom Caucus to exist.)

---

The problem I see is that the Speaker sets the Agenda.
The party Platform IS the agenda; the Speaker is supposed to execute a plan to enact the platform.
The Whip does what it takes to ensure that the Speaker gets the Votes.
If the whip is whipping the base rather than the moderates, that is a sign the Speaker is NOT working the platform. You don't have to whip the base to pass the platform. You have to whip moderates to pass the platform......
The Freedom Caucus and MTG working within the structure is fine, the Grandstanding playing the media to force their hand? No, that just empowers the Dems.
No, it empowers the platform agenda.

The biggest issue I have with the Freedom Caucus is they do not care about anything but their narrow view.
It's called "the platform." The reality of how the Govt runs, keeping the Nation operating or god forbid moving the Nation forward vs Russia, China and Iran is non-existent.
They were elected to enact the platform into law, not empower the other side to get its own platform enacted into law, or to protect things that are at odds with platform agendas.

The Freedom Caucus thinks it is the 94 Revolution and T-Party on Steroids.
Why shouldn't it be? We've got a frickin' disaster not because of a lack of compromise but because Democrats passed bad law!
What they fail to realize was that both those movements attacked Dem Administrations. TThe Freedom Caucus that will shut down the Govt and burn it down if it doesn't get its way and is attacking its own Party! .....to stop their own party from helping Democrats enact bad policy! Stopping bad stuff from getting enacted into law is a core job requirement of a Congresscritter. Democrats do a very good job of it against us. Why should we not return the favor?

She and her cronies don't work within the GOP system and are willing to attack the Speaker when THEY have power!
Why shouldn't a speaker who breaks promises to his/her caucus be attacked? Exactly what does it look like when the speaker whips the base too hard? Isn't the base allowed to bite back?
MTG and the Freedom Caucus is a dream come true for the Dems. They love her taking the knees out from under the Speaker and letting the Dems "save" him. She and her group are idiots that do more damage than good. Voting is one part of being a Congressperson.
Dems are scared of the FC. "if you're taking flack, you're over the target....." Remember that one?

---

You are just making an appeal to teamwork and civility, which do have a time and place, just not when a majority of Republicans are demanding better (more conservative) leadership.

---

You also keep referring to MTG as the Whip, she is not. I have no problem with the Whip doing their job, most of the time they operate behind the scenes. I can't think of a well known Whip since Gingrich.

You also keep referring to MTG and MAGA as the "base", we disagree. The whole MAGA/Gang of 8 are on the fringe, not the base. That is why Gaetz was only able to get those 8 votes, a quirky House rule (which will never get passed again) and the small number of GOP Majority is what allowed it to happen. You keep acting like it was "base" movement, it was not. It was 8 of over 279. That is not the base... MTG HAD LESS. A quirk of rule making that got passed is the only reason this small minority of the GOP has any voice at all. You are mistaken that quirk for the base. Without that rule, you hear NOTHING from this crowd but MTG's shrill *****ing and Gaetz's scheming.

---

Every member of the caucus will whip what they can. Some do it behind the scenes. Some for the cameras. Each method has its time and place. In that context, the FC exist almost exclusive as a bulwark AGAINST whipping by moderate Speakers, to push back and force more accommodation of platform objectives.

The vote total did not reflect what you presume. There are dozens of members who shared exactly MTG's views on the Speaker's actions. They just didn't want to have another protracted speaker fight. MTG, if you remember, stuck with McCarthy all the way to the end. She didn't do that because she agreed with McCarthy on issues. She did it because she had carved out a role for herself under McCarthy and didn't see a similar space available under a new speaker.

You keep avoiding the obvious - if you want the FC to go away, just keep putting platform agenda items up for votes and quit making compromises that hand Democrats their platform agenda at the expense of ours. I'm perfectly happy with a Congress that does nothing except shooting down every bill the Democrats propose. We'd be way better off than having all those expensive compromises we keep getting that gut the country in so many ways. That's what Dems do. Just put their platform agenda up for a vote. Why can't we do that?

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You keep going to the "presume", "not what it looks like", etc... The bottomline is that there are too many factions only concerned with their slice of the pie.
It has always been so and always will be. It's easy to work with your own base. You know what they want and broadly agree with them. So if you find yourself whipping them....isn't that a sign something is wrong with the bill you're whipping them about?

At least at the GOP should find items THEY agree on and put together an Agenda. Hell, the Border that is a no brainer...

We do agree on your last point, they need to put the Agenda to a vote. That is where the strength of the majority can work.

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We do agree on and put together an agenda. We do it every 2 years at Party Conventions = write a platform. We do it every 4 years at a National Convention. Weeks writing rules for the convention(s) before the first gavel falls. Months arguing about platform planks before the first gavel falls. And then, the platform is passed at a national convention, with strong influence from the Presidential nominee (who gets nearly every thing they want). So we do have an agenda. The only question is, will our elected officials execute on it. Far too often, they don't. Ergo the rise of the FC.

The FC exists solely due to broad dissatisfaction with GOP leadership. If GOP leadership is conservative enough, the FC will have no oxygen to survive.

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Well, as we expected, it boils down to that. That we do agree on that. We have a Platform, execute it.

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Here it is, 2020 GOP Platform. Pick one that the whole GOP will get behind and push through...

JOBS

• Create 10 Million New Jobs in 10 Months
• Create 1 Million New Small Businesses
• Cut Taxes to Boost Take-Home Pay and Keep Jobs in America
• Enact Fair Trade Deals that Protect American Jobs
• 'Made in America' Tax Credits
• Expand Opportunity Zones
• Continue Deregulatory Agenda for Energy Independence

ERADICATE COVID-19

• Develop a Vaccine by The End Of 2020
• Return to Normal in 2021
• Make All Critical Medicines and Supplies for Healthcare Workers in The United States
• Refill Stockpiles and Prepare for Future Pandemics

END OUR RELIANCE ON CHINA

• Bring Back 1 Million Manufacturing Jobs from China
• Tax Credits for Companies that Bring Back Jobs from China
• Allow 100% Expensing Deductions for Essential Industries like Pharmaceuticals and Robotics who Bring *Back their Manufacturing to the United States
• No Federal Contracts for Companies who Outsource to China
• Hold China Fully Accountable for Allowing the Virus to Spread around the World

HEALTHCARE

• Cut Prescription Drug Prices
• Put Patients and Doctors Back in Charge of our Healthcare System
• Lower Healthcare Insurance Premiums
• End Surprise Billing
• Cover All Pre-Existing Conditions
• Protect Social Security and Medicare
• Protect Our Veterans and Provide World-Class Healthcare and Services

EDUCATION

• Provide School Choice to Every Child in America
• Teach American Exceptionalism

DRAIN THE SWAMP

• Pass Congressional Term Limits
• End Bureaucratic Government Bullying of U.S. Citizens and Small Businesses
• Expose Washington's Money Trail and Delegate Powers Back to People and States
• Drain the Globalist Swamp by Taking on International Organizations That Hurt American Citizens

DEFEND OUR POLICE

• Fully Fund and Hire More Police and Law Enforcement Officers
• Increase Criminal Penalties for Assaults on Law Enforcement Officers
• Prosecute Drive-By Shootings as Acts of Domestic Terrorism
• Bring Violent Extremist Groups Like ANTIFA to Justice
• End Cashless Bail and Keep Dangerous Criminals Locked Up until Trial

END ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION AND PROTECT AMERICAN WORKERS

• Block Illegal Immigrants from Becoming Eligible for Taxpayer-Funded Welfare, Healthcare, and Free College Tuition
• Mandatory Deportation for Non-Citizen Gang Members
• Dismantle Human Trafficking Networks
• End Sanctuary Cities to Restore our Neighborhoods and Protect our Families
• Prohibit American Companies from Replacing United States Citizens with Lower-Cost Foreign Workers
• Require New Immigrants to Be Able to Support Themselves Financially

INNOVATE FOR THE FUTURE

• Launch Space Force, Establish Permanent Manned Presence on The Moon and Send the First Manned Mission to Mars
• Build the World's Greatest Infrastructure System
• Win the Race to 5G and Establish a National High-Speed Wireless Internet Network
• Continue to Lead the World in Access to the Cleanest Drinking Water and Cleanest Air
• Partner with Other Nations to Clean Up our Planet's Oceans

AMERICA FIRST FOREIGN POLICY

• Stop Endless Wars and Bring Our Troops Home
• Get Allies to Pay their Fair Share
• Maintain and Expand America's Unrivaled Military Strength
• Wipe Out Global Terrorists Who Threaten to Harm Americans
• Build a Great Cybersecurity Defense System and Missile Defense System

DEFEND AMERICAN VALUES

• Continue nominating constitutionalist Supreme Court and lower court judges
• Protect unborn life through every means available
• Defend the freedoms of religious believers and organizations
• Support the exercise of Second Amendment rights[url=https://ballotpedia.org/The_Republican_Party_Platform,_2020#cite_note-quotedisclaimer-7][7][/url]

"

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That is a summary
Do you have the actual words?

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I don't need to be picky, I know attorneys like that, but I am good with an idea. Pick one, show the GOP can come together and push it through...

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Should Texas GOP push this through?


To be elected to state office, a candidate must win not only a majority of votes, but also more than half of Texas's 254 counties. Democrats in Texas are concentrated in a few urban areas, while Republicans are spread across the map. This system would effectively mean Democrats would be shut out forever.

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Depends, State Senate yes. Representative no.

My logic that Senators represent the whole state. Reps represent a geographic area.

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I think you mean US Senate

Wow! You are a Texas Republican

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Sorry, I keep mixing US with Texas.

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No problem. What do you think of this plank in the Texas Republican platform?

To be elected to state office, a candidate must win not only a majority of votes, but also more than half of Texas's 254 counties. Democrats in Texas are concentrated in a few urban areas, while Republicans are spread across the map. This system would effectively mean Democrats would be shut out forever.

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I think the concept holds, if it is to represent a specific District. No, just that District.

If it is a Statewide position, yes. Should not have one area picking. It would also force getting out to the areas the are not well represented

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So, candidate for US Senate gets 1 million votes but doesn't win a majority of the 254 counties. His opponent gets 500,000 votes but won a majority of counties. That would mean the loser would advance

Do you think that's the way for Republicans to go?

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No, your way puts the County portion as a higher weight. They are equal.

In my mind, it would cause a runoff. The point is to force candidates to get out of the population centers and represent the other areas.

That would do it. You don't want someone from Houston who never set foot in the panhandle making water legislation for Pampa. Or mineral rights in Borger. Forcing them to campaign the whole State and develop a Statewide platform would help even if they didn't win 50% of the Counties. Having lived in Amarillo, anything that foces politicians to recognize issues up there is good.

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Okay
We'll just disagree
A guy with 30% of the vote can force a run off. If the vote winner still hasn't won a majority of the counties? What happens?

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Like any other election you would have tie breakers. Maybe the runoff is popular vote. At least the forcing of the runoff forced somebody to talk to West Texas. As long as you do not have to go East of I35 you will get what you have now. Lubbock, Amarillo, Odessa, El Paso, Sweetwater all get under represented today.

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From Texas Tribune:

At its biennial convention last month, the Texas GOP tried to increase its party purity by approving two major rules changes: One would close the Republican primary elections so that only voters the party identifies as Republicans can participate. The other would bar candidates from the primary ballot for two years after they had been censured by the state party.

both are predictable responses to electeds not voting for things they promised to vote for.

whiterock said:

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both are predictable responses to electeds not voting for things they promised to vote for.

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How would it work?
Hypothetical:
Republican A is elected to the House. Someone issues a report card. The report card is evaluated by some group of Republicans who determine that her votimng record is deficient.
Result: she isn't allowed to run as a Republican in the next election

How do you see it working differently, if at all?

Osodecentx said:

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whiterock said:

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both are predictable responses to electeds not voting for things they promised to vote for.

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How would it work?
Hypothetical:
Republican A is elected to the House. Someone issues a report card. The report card is evaluated by some group of Republicans who determine that her votimng record is deficient.
Result: she isn't allowed to run as a Republican in the next election

How do you see it working differently, if at all?

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I doubt this will get done, due to the procedural problems you cited. but the issue will not go away until elected Republicans start getting more serious about accomplishing platform objectives.

We know who the "someones" are. They are institutions that have been around a while, and none of the ones we know about are terribly radical. Heritage Foundation, Chamber of Commerce, Club for Growth, FreedomWorks, NRA, etc.... In Austin a big one would be Texas Public Policy Foundation... Voters can and do look to the ratings at places like that to make determinations on whether or not their reps are keeping their promises. If we could elect Republicans who keep their voters happy, the ratings would reflect that, which would in turn make the issue fade away due to lack of relevance.

Sure, there are tons & tons of "someones" but most of them get very marginal attention, which serves to prove that they are not really a terribly important factor. If you can't pull eyeballs into your site, you are not going to have a lot of influence. The ones we know about are well above that bar, because they provide a valuable service.

Osodecentx said:

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Should Texas GOP push this through?


To be elected to state office, a candidate must win not only a majority of votes, but also more than half of Texas's 254 counties. Democrats in Texas are concentrated in a few urban areas, while Republicans are spread across the map. This system would effectively mean Democrats would be shut out forever.

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No issue with it, given the propensity of Democrats to push ranked choice voting in Blue States. If a Democrat in Texas wants to live in a disarmed, high tax, high crime, trans the kids land they should move to a blue state. New Mexico and Colorado aren't far at all.

Kevin McCarthy: “I’ll give you the truth why I'm not speaker. It's because one person, a member of Congress [Matt Gaetz] wanted me to stop an ethics complaint because he slept with a 17-year-old”
pic.twitter.com/LN85Ttm8BS

— Republicans against Trump (@RpsAgainstTrump) June 21, 2024

Gaetz the man child

Very awkward moment- Congressman Matt Gaetz tries to interrupt former Speaker Kevin McCarthy’s interviews, taunting him “Hey Kevin, what night are you speaking?” pic.twitter.com/vE1W5FvTqH

— Joe Khalil (@JoeKhalilTV) July 16, 2024

This view is even better….some guy calls Gaetz an asshole 🤣 and he runs away like the coward that he is pic.twitter.com/rUnSgKsl5G

— Wu Tang is for the Children (@WUTangKids) July 16, 2024

Waco1947 said:

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He's too far right

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Come on 47, you're too far left. You've always been too far left. I've been gone for four years and you havent changed a bit!