Sam Lowry said:
I stand corrected. Bear8084 will always try to deny everything no matter how obvious.
Nothing obvious here other than it was ISIS, cuck.
The Putin Interview
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Last: 6 mo ago by Mothra
Nothing obvious here other than it was ISIS, cuck.
The Ukrainians didn't confirm Navalny died of natural causes, though it's telling that's your position. The Defense Minister said he believed that, while other members of the Ukrainian govt., including Zelensky, contradicted that statement. There has been no official statement from Ukraine on the subject. And of course, since his death, reports have come out of a prison exchange that was in the works right before Navalany died, which the Russians may have wanted to scuttle.Sam Lowry said:I just got through saying I don't know whether Putin is telling the truth. Again, I didn't take anyone's statements about Navalny at face value. I waited until the Ukrainians confirmed that he died of natural causes. You already believe what you believe, and it's not going to change no matter what evidence comes out. That's rushing to judgment. It's quite comical to see you savaging others when you're one of the worst offenders in this regard.Mothra said:That being the case, how can you say, with any semblance of certainty, that statements that Ukraine and the West were behind the attack is not a rush to judgment?Sam Lowry said:We -- meaning you and I -- don't know, Mothra. Has it not occurred to you that the relevant authorities may have more information?Mothra said:Ah, so it was not a rush to judgment for Putin and his cronies to say the West and Ukraine were behind the attack (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-68663043), even though "we don't know yet who's to blame?"Sam Lowry said:We don't know yet who's to blame. Putin stated as fact that the terrorists had contacts in Ukraine. He either had that information from an intelligence briefing or he made it up. In neither case would I call it a rush to judgment.Mothra said:Ah, so Putin was correct in rushing to judgment, in your opinion (if so, what a shock)? Both Ukraine and the US are at fault?Sam Lowry said:You understand that ISIS-K and US/Ukraine involvement are not mutually exclusive, right? ISIS-K is basically a remnant of the US-trained intelligence and security forces in Afghanistan. Their leader was a contractor at Bagram and has reportedly worked for Abdul Rashid Dostum and Amrullah Sallah, both of whom fought against Russia and later served as key allies of the CIA against the Taliban. It's also well known that ISIS-trained militants, mostly from Chechnya, are fighting in Ukraine. So there will be plenty to unravel as Russia pursues its investigation.Mothra said:A highly ironic post, given Putin's immediate rush to judgment, blaming Ukraine (and the US), when we now know ISIS-K was responsible for what happened.Sam Lowry said:Didn't learn much from your rush to judgment on Navalny, did you?Mothra said:
Yo, Sammy boy. I saw over the weekend your boy Putin is blaming Ukraine for the Isis terrorist attack. What say you on this? We know how much you trust Putin. Gotta be the truth, right?
Or maybe it's ok to rush to judgment as long as the judgment supports Sam's narrative?
So glad we definitively know that Navalany died of natural causes, which had absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with Russian authorities. Believe Putin.
Of course. Predictable as the sunrise. As always, you are a walking dichotomy, depending on the actor.
The US and Ukraine have of course said that's preposterous. While I realize of course you will take the statements of a dictator over your country, Russia has brought forth no evidence to support such statements. But we should just assume that Russia has evidence to support its positions, and has no reason whatsoever to spin this attack for political gain?
Let me guess - you also take Russia's statements that Navalany died of natural causes at face value. Amiright?
Without knowing for sure, however, I would say the idea that it was a Ukrainian terror attack is far from "preposterous." They've been routinely attacking civilian targets in Russia for months. In fact that's the most likely reason for the escalation of Russian attacks on energy infrastructure that you've loudly denounced. Ukraine's intelligence service (which is run by another CIA trainee, by the way) has committed hundreds of bombings and assassinations in eastern Ukraine and Russia, often targeting victims who were simply exercising free speech or who had little or no military significance. No one even tries to deny it, so it's not like any of this is out of character.
It's a bridge too far to believe the Russians had something to do with Navalny's death only if you are a Russian shill. If you believe Navalny was justly imprisoned, that the Russians hadn't attempted to murder him previously, and that the circumstances surrounding his death, and after his death (i.e. video cameras stopped working in the prison, Russians won't release his body, and allowed it to decompose prior to handing it over, with the promise of course of no autopsy) are mere coincidences. When you are a bad actor responsible for numerous ills in the world, and have a long history of imprisoning or killing off political opponents, you don't exactly engender confidence in your version of events. Of course, I realize you don't believe any of that.
I am curious as to your sources in the last paragraph. Russian news agencies? And what is Ukraine doing exactly? Are they targeting apartment blocks, like the Russian attack on the apartment complex in Dnipro that killed 46 civilians? Are they bombing residential areas, like Russians indiscriminate bombing of civilians in Chernihiv, which destroyed two schools and killed 47 people (including children)? Did they kill 14 civilians who were waiting in a line for bread? Are they targeting events and cultural centers, like the Russian airstrike on the Mariupol theatre being used as a bomb shelter, that killed 600 civilians, or the Russian bombing of the Taras Shevchenkp Music and Drama Center in Krasna Square, that killed a dozen? Are they firing cruise missiles at apartment complexes, like the Russians, which killed dozens in the city of Kryvyi Rih? Are they bombing civilian railway stations, like the Russian bombing of Chaplyne railway station that killed 25 civilians or the Russian bombing of the Kramatorsk railway station that killed 60 civilians? Are they dropping cluster bombs on civilians centers - such as schools and apartments complexes - in cities like Vuhledar and Lyman? Are they shelling densely populated areas in Mariupol, that has destroyed numerous houses, churches and schools, and killed hundreds? Are they targeting areas that have been designated as humanitarian corridors? Are they bombing hospitals and maternity wards, like the Russian attack on the one in Mariupol? Are they targeting restaurants, like the Russian attack on the pizza parlor in Kramatorsk that killed 13 people, including 4 children? Are they laying landmines in civilian areas, such as the explosives laid in Donetsk?
I guess it's only a bad thing when the country under attack allegedly engages in like measures.
Quote:
MOSCOW, Aug 18 (Reuters) - A Ukrainian drone smashed into a building in central Moscow on Friday after Russian air defences shot it down, disrupting air traffic at all the civilian airports of the Russian capital, Russian officials said.
A Reuters witness who was in the area described hearing "a powerful explosion". Reuters images showed workers and emergency workers inspecting a damaged roof of a non-residential building which the drone hit.
Drone air strikes deep inside Russia have increased since a drone was destroyed over the Kremlin in early May. Civilian areas of the capital were hit later in May and a Moscow business district was targeted twice in three days earlier this month.
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/drone-attack-damaged-building-moscow-centre-2023-08-18/
Quote:
BELGOROD, Russia, Feb 15 (Reuters) - Seven people including a one-year-old girl were killed in a Ukrainian missile attack on Thursday on the southern Russian city of Belgorod, regional governor Vyacheslav Gladkov said.
Eighteen other people, including four children, were hospitalised with injuries, with six in serious condition, Gladkov said, adding that four people, including two children, had already been released for outpatient treatment. He said the dead child's name was Valentina.
"We are all grieving with the families and friends of the victims," Gladkov wrote on Telegram. "I want to express my sincere condolences, realising that there are no words that can comfort this grief."
Later Gladkov said that another four injured, including two children, would be treated in Moscow.
Belgorod is the nearest major Russian city to the border with Ukraine, and the city and surrounding region have come under frequent attack since February 2022, when Russia sent its forces into Ukraine in what it calls a "special military operation".
Russian authorities said 25 civilians were killed in the largest of these attacks at the end of December.
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/least-four-killed-ukrainian-missile-strike-belgorod-russian-media-2024-02-15/
Quote:
THE OPERATION was a month in the making. Yevhen Yunakov, the mayor of Velykyi Burluk, in the Kharkiv region, had been identified as a collaborator with the Russians. "Caucasus", a special-forces commander, and a group of local officers were given the job. His men watched their target meticulously for days: when he shopped; when and where he moved; the extent of his security. Once they detonated their bomb, from a distance, they disappeared to safe-houses inside occupied territory. The group would return to Ukrainian-controlled territory only weeks later, after the town had been liberated. Yunakov's body has never been found.
Over 18 months of war, dozens of people like Yunakov have been targeted in clinical operations across occupied Ukraine and inside Russia itself. They have been shot, blown up, hanged and even, on occasion, poisoned with doctored brandy. Ukraine is tight-lipped about its involvement in assassinations. But few doubt the increasingly competent signature of its security services.
Ukraine's leadership came under particular scrutiny in October, when the New York Times reported that the American government was blaming it for a car-bomb that killed Darya Dugina, daughter of Alexander Dugin, a nationalistic philosopher. That sharpened an already-lively internal debate within Ukrainian intelligence. It was unclear if Ms Dugina was meant to die; some reports suggest she had switched cars with her father.
But a subsequent string of operations targeting mid-level propagandists showed a trend that few of the insiders interviewed for this article were happy with. "These are marginal figures," says one source in SBU counter-intelligence. "It makes me uncomfortable." The former SBU fifth-directorate officer suggests the operations were designed to impress the president rather than bring victory any closer.
https://www.economist.com/europe/2023/09/05/inside-ukraines-assassination-programme
So, your evidence of these alleged civilian attacks is:Sam Lowry said:Quote:
MOSCOW, Aug 18 (Reuters) - A Ukrainian drone smashed into a building in central Moscow on Friday after Russian air defences shot it down, disrupting air traffic at all the civilian airports of the Russian capital, Russian officials said.
A Reuters witness who was in the area described hearing "a powerful explosion". Reuters images showed workers and emergency workers inspecting a damaged roof of a non-residential building which the drone hit.
Drone air strikes deep inside Russia have increased since a drone was destroyed over the Kremlin in early May. Civilian areas of the capital were hit later in May and a Moscow business district was targeted twice in three days earlier this month.
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/drone-attack-damaged-building-moscow-centre-2023-08-18/Quote:
BELGOROD, Russia, Feb 15 (Reuters) - Seven people including a one-year-old girl were killed in a Ukrainian missile attack on Thursday on the southern Russian city of Belgorod, regional governor Vyacheslav Gladkov said.
Eighteen other people, including four children, were hospitalised with injuries, with six in serious condition, Gladkov said, adding that four people, including two children, had already been released for outpatient treatment. He said the dead child's name was Valentina.
"We are all grieving with the families and friends of the victims," Gladkov wrote on Telegram. "I want to express my sincere condolences, realising that there are no words that can comfort this grief."
Later Gladkov said that another four injured, including two children, would be treated in Moscow.
Belgorod is the nearest major Russian city to the border with Ukraine, and the city and surrounding region have come under frequent attack since February 2022, when Russia sent its forces into Ukraine in what it calls a "special military operation".
Russian authorities said 25 civilians were killed in the largest of these attacks at the end of December.
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/least-four-killed-ukrainian-missile-strike-belgorod-russian-media-2024-02-15/Quote:
THE OPERATION was a month in the making. Yevhen Yunakov, the mayor of Velykyi Burluk, in the Kharkiv region, had been identified as a collaborator with the Russians. "Caucasus", a special-forces commander, and a group of local officers were given the job. His men watched their target meticulously for days: when he shopped; when and where he moved; the extent of his security. Once they detonated their bomb, from a distance, they disappeared to safe-houses inside occupied territory. The group would return to Ukrainian-controlled territory only weeks later, after the town had been liberated. Yunakov's body has never been found.
Over 18 months of war, dozens of people like Yunakov have been targeted in clinical operations across occupied Ukraine and inside Russia itself. They have been shot, blown up, hanged and even, on occasion, poisoned with doctored brandy. Ukraine is tight-lipped about its involvement in assassinations. But few doubt the increasingly competent signature of its security services.
Ukraine's leadership came under particular scrutiny in October, when the New York Times reported that the American government was blaming it for a car-bomb that killed Darya Dugina, daughter of Alexander Dugin, a nationalistic philosopher. That sharpened an already-lively internal debate within Ukrainian intelligence. It was unclear if Ms Dugina was meant to die; some reports suggest she had switched cars with her father.
But a subsequent string of operations targeting mid-level propagandists showed a trend that few of the insiders interviewed for this article were happy with. "These are marginal figures," says one source in SBU counter-intelligence. "It makes me uncomfortable." The former SBU fifth-directorate officer suggests the operations were designed to impress the president rather than bring victory any closer.
https://www.economist.com/europe/2023/09/05/inside-ukraines-assassination-programme
1) A Ukrainian drone most likely headed for a military target is shot down by the Russians and smashes into a building, killing nobody;
2) A Ukrainian missile, whose destination is unknown, kills 7 in a border city; and
3) Ukrainians may be targeting traitors in clinical operations in Ukrainian occupied territory.
Really? That's all you have?
And you have no response to the numerous actual human rights atrocities I referenced above?
Why am I not surprised?
1. There's no evidence that it was headed for a military target. To repeat with added emphasis this time: "Drone air strikes deep inside Russia have increased since a drone was destroyed over the Kremlin in early May. Civilian areas of the capital were hit later in May and a Moscow business district was targeted twice in three days earlier this month.Mothra said:So, your evidence of these alleged civilian attacks is:Sam Lowry said:Quote:
MOSCOW, Aug 18 (Reuters) - A Ukrainian drone smashed into a building in central Moscow on Friday after Russian air defences shot it down, disrupting air traffic at all the civilian airports of the Russian capital, Russian officials said.
A Reuters witness who was in the area described hearing "a powerful explosion". Reuters images showed workers and emergency workers inspecting a damaged roof of a non-residential building which the drone hit.
Drone air strikes deep inside Russia have increased since a drone was destroyed over the Kremlin in early May. Civilian areas of the capital were hit later in May and a Moscow business district was targeted twice in three days earlier this month.
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/drone-attack-damaged-building-moscow-centre-2023-08-18/Quote:
BELGOROD, Russia, Feb 15 (Reuters) - Seven people including a one-year-old girl were killed in a Ukrainian missile attack on Thursday on the southern Russian city of Belgorod, regional governor Vyacheslav Gladkov said.
Eighteen other people, including four children, were hospitalised with injuries, with six in serious condition, Gladkov said, adding that four people, including two children, had already been released for outpatient treatment. He said the dead child's name was Valentina.
"We are all grieving with the families and friends of the victims," Gladkov wrote on Telegram. "I want to express my sincere condolences, realising that there are no words that can comfort this grief."
Later Gladkov said that another four injured, including two children, would be treated in Moscow.
Belgorod is the nearest major Russian city to the border with Ukraine, and the city and surrounding region have come under frequent attack since February 2022, when Russia sent its forces into Ukraine in what it calls a "special military operation".
Russian authorities said 25 civilians were killed in the largest of these attacks at the end of December.
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/least-four-killed-ukrainian-missile-strike-belgorod-russian-media-2024-02-15/Quote:
THE OPERATION was a month in the making. Yevhen Yunakov, the mayor of Velykyi Burluk, in the Kharkiv region, had been identified as a collaborator with the Russians. "Caucasus", a special-forces commander, and a group of local officers were given the job. His men watched their target meticulously for days: when he shopped; when and where he moved; the extent of his security. Once they detonated their bomb, from a distance, they disappeared to safe-houses inside occupied territory. The group would return to Ukrainian-controlled territory only weeks later, after the town had been liberated. Yunakov's body has never been found.
Over 18 months of war, dozens of people like Yunakov have been targeted in clinical operations across occupied Ukraine and inside Russia itself. They have been shot, blown up, hanged and even, on occasion, poisoned with doctored brandy. Ukraine is tight-lipped about its involvement in assassinations. But few doubt the increasingly competent signature of its security services.
Ukraine's leadership came under particular scrutiny in October, when the New York Times reported that the American government was blaming it for a car-bomb that killed Darya Dugina, daughter of Alexander Dugin, a nationalistic philosopher. That sharpened an already-lively internal debate within Ukrainian intelligence. It was unclear if Ms Dugina was meant to die; some reports suggest she had switched cars with her father.
But a subsequent string of operations targeting mid-level propagandists showed a trend that few of the insiders interviewed for this article were happy with. "These are marginal figures," says one source in SBU counter-intelligence. "It makes me uncomfortable." The former SBU fifth-directorate officer suggests the operations were designed to impress the president rather than bring victory any closer.
https://www.economist.com/europe/2023/09/05/inside-ukraines-assassination-programme
1) A Ukrainian drone most likely headed for a military target is shot down by the Russians and smashes into a building, killing nobody;
2) A Ukrainian missile, whose destination is unknown, kills 7 in a border city; and
3) Ukrainians may be targeting traitors in clinical operations in Ukrainian occupied territory.
Really? That's all you have?
And you have no response to the numerous actual human rights atrocities I referenced above?
Why am I not surprised?
2. It most likely had no specific destination. More on that later.
3. Not surprised that you support extrajudicial killing of noncombatants by Ukraine. Like you said, I guess it all depends on the actor. It is disturbing that you consider "mid-level propaganda" and "nationalistic philosophy" to be forms of treason. But that's not even the most glaring flaw in your argument. Again with emphasis: "Over 18 months of war, dozens of people like Yunakov have been targeted in clinical operations across occupied Ukraine and inside Russia itself." Alexander Dugin was Russian, not Ukrainian. So no matter what you think of his opinions, he was no traitor to Ukraine. Much less his daughter, who was murdered on her way to an art festival outside Moscow.
But that's all just fine with you.
Mothra said:So, your evidence of these alleged civilian attacks is:Sam Lowry said:Quote:
MOSCOW, Aug 18 (Reuters) - A Ukrainian drone smashed into a building in central Moscow on Friday after Russian air defences shot it down, disrupting air traffic at all the civilian airports of the Russian capital, Russian officials said.
A Reuters witness who was in the area described hearing "a powerful explosion". Reuters images showed workers and emergency workers inspecting a damaged roof of a non-residential building which the drone hit.
Drone air strikes deep inside Russia have increased since a drone was destroyed over the Kremlin in early May. Civilian areas of the capital were hit later in May and a Moscow business district was targeted twice in three days earlier this month.
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/drone-attack-damaged-building-moscow-centre-2023-08-18/Quote:
BELGOROD, Russia, Feb 15 (Reuters) - Seven people including a one-year-old girl were killed in a Ukrainian missile attack on Thursday on the southern Russian city of Belgorod, regional governor Vyacheslav Gladkov said.
Eighteen other people, including four children, were hospitalised with injuries, with six in serious condition, Gladkov said, adding that four people, including two children, had already been released for outpatient treatment. He said the dead child's name was Valentina.
"We are all grieving with the families and friends of the victims," Gladkov wrote on Telegram. "I want to express my sincere condolences, realising that there are no words that can comfort this grief."
Later Gladkov said that another four injured, including two children, would be treated in Moscow.
Belgorod is the nearest major Russian city to the border with Ukraine, and the city and surrounding region have come under frequent attack since February 2022, when Russia sent its forces into Ukraine in what it calls a "special military operation".
Russian authorities said 25 civilians were killed in the largest of these attacks at the end of December.
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/least-four-killed-ukrainian-missile-strike-belgorod-russian-media-2024-02-15/Quote:
THE OPERATION was a month in the making. Yevhen Yunakov, the mayor of Velykyi Burluk, in the Kharkiv region, had been identified as a collaborator with the Russians. "Caucasus", a special-forces commander, and a group of local officers were given the job. His men watched their target meticulously for days: when he shopped; when and where he moved; the extent of his security. Once they detonated their bomb, from a distance, they disappeared to safe-houses inside occupied territory. The group would return to Ukrainian-controlled territory only weeks later, after the town had been liberated. Yunakov's body has never been found.
Over 18 months of war, dozens of people like Yunakov have been targeted in clinical operations across occupied Ukraine and inside Russia itself. They have been shot, blown up, hanged and even, on occasion, poisoned with doctored brandy. Ukraine is tight-lipped about its involvement in assassinations. But few doubt the increasingly competent signature of its security services.
Ukraine's leadership came under particular scrutiny in October, when the New York Times reported that the American government was blaming it for a car-bomb that killed Darya Dugina, daughter of Alexander Dugin, a nationalistic philosopher. That sharpened an already-lively internal debate within Ukrainian intelligence. It was unclear if Ms Dugina was meant to die; some reports suggest she had switched cars with her father.
But a subsequent string of operations targeting mid-level propagandists showed a trend that few of the insiders interviewed for this article were happy with. "These are marginal figures," says one source in SBU counter-intelligence. "It makes me uncomfortable." The former SBU fifth-directorate officer suggests the operations were designed to impress the president rather than bring victory any closer.
https://www.economist.com/europe/2023/09/05/inside-ukraines-assassination-programme
1) A Ukrainian drone most likely headed for a military target is shot down by the Russians and smashes into a building, killing nobody;
2) A Ukrainian missile, whose destination is unknown, kills 7 in a border city; and
3) Ukrainians may be targeting traitors in clinical operations in Ukrainian occupied territory.
Really? That's all you have?
And you have no response to the numerous actual human rights atrocities I referenced above?
Why am I not surprised?
Yuuuuuup....
ISIS-K is responsible for the bombing at the Kabul airport that killed a bunch of U.S. soldiers. Put down the bull**** bong.Sam Lowry said:You understand that ISIS-K and US/Ukraine involvement are not mutually exclusive, right? ISIS-K is basically a remnant of the US-trained intelligence and security forces in Afghanistan. Their leader was a contractor at Bagram and has reportedly worked for Abdul Rashid Dostum and Amrullah Sallah, both of whom fought against Russia and later served as key allies of the CIA against the Taliban. It's also well known that ISIS-trained militants, mostly from Chechnya, are fighting in Ukraine. So there will be plenty to unravel as Russia pursues its investigation.Mothra said:A highly ironic post, given Putin's immediate rush to judgment, blaming Ukraine (and the US), when we now know ISIS-K was responsible for what happened.Sam Lowry said:Didn't learn much from your rush to judgment on Navalny, did you?Mothra said:
Yo, Sammy boy. I saw over the weekend your boy Putin is blaming Ukraine for the Isis terrorist attack. What say you on this? We know how much you trust Putin. Gotta be the truth, right?
Or maybe it's ok to rush to judgment as long as the judgment supports Sam's narrative?
So glad we definitively know that Navalany died of natural causes, which had absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with Russian authorities. Believe Putin.
Putin is creating a distraction for their intel failings.
Who said I was fine with extrajudicial killings? Undoubtedly, there are bad actors on both sides. What's interesting to me, however, is both the disproportion and double standard, which you seem to be perfectly fine with. I mean, we literally have at a minimum 10,000 Ukrainian citizens killed, and I pointed out numerous instances of Russia targeting civilians, yet your response is, what about the targeted extra judicial killings of traitors? Hell, you don't say a word when another Russian oligarch or political opponent is imprisoned, poisoned or falls from a tall window, but now all of the sudden the Ukrainians are the bad guys for killing traitors. Yet, not a word from you when Putin does it?Sam Lowry said:1. There's no evidence that it was headed for a military target. To repeat with added emphasis this time: "Drone air strikes deep inside Russia have increased since a drone was destroyed over the Kremlin in early May. Civilian areas of the capital were hit later in May and a Moscow business district was targeted twice in three days earlier this month.Mothra said:So, your evidence of these alleged civilian attacks is:Sam Lowry said:Quote:
MOSCOW, Aug 18 (Reuters) - A Ukrainian drone smashed into a building in central Moscow on Friday after Russian air defences shot it down, disrupting air traffic at all the civilian airports of the Russian capital, Russian officials said.
A Reuters witness who was in the area described hearing "a powerful explosion". Reuters images showed workers and emergency workers inspecting a damaged roof of a non-residential building which the drone hit.
Drone air strikes deep inside Russia have increased since a drone was destroyed over the Kremlin in early May. Civilian areas of the capital were hit later in May and a Moscow business district was targeted twice in three days earlier this month.
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/drone-attack-damaged-building-moscow-centre-2023-08-18/Quote:
BELGOROD, Russia, Feb 15 (Reuters) - Seven people including a one-year-old girl were killed in a Ukrainian missile attack on Thursday on the southern Russian city of Belgorod, regional governor Vyacheslav Gladkov said.
Eighteen other people, including four children, were hospitalised with injuries, with six in serious condition, Gladkov said, adding that four people, including two children, had already been released for outpatient treatment. He said the dead child's name was Valentina.
"We are all grieving with the families and friends of the victims," Gladkov wrote on Telegram. "I want to express my sincere condolences, realising that there are no words that can comfort this grief."
Later Gladkov said that another four injured, including two children, would be treated in Moscow.
Belgorod is the nearest major Russian city to the border with Ukraine, and the city and surrounding region have come under frequent attack since February 2022, when Russia sent its forces into Ukraine in what it calls a "special military operation".
Russian authorities said 25 civilians were killed in the largest of these attacks at the end of December.
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/least-four-killed-ukrainian-missile-strike-belgorod-russian-media-2024-02-15/Quote:
THE OPERATION was a month in the making. Yevhen Yunakov, the mayor of Velykyi Burluk, in the Kharkiv region, had been identified as a collaborator with the Russians. "Caucasus", a special-forces commander, and a group of local officers were given the job. His men watched their target meticulously for days: when he shopped; when and where he moved; the extent of his security. Once they detonated their bomb, from a distance, they disappeared to safe-houses inside occupied territory. The group would return to Ukrainian-controlled territory only weeks later, after the town had been liberated. Yunakov's body has never been found.
Over 18 months of war, dozens of people like Yunakov have been targeted in clinical operations across occupied Ukraine and inside Russia itself. They have been shot, blown up, hanged and even, on occasion, poisoned with doctored brandy. Ukraine is tight-lipped about its involvement in assassinations. But few doubt the increasingly competent signature of its security services.
Ukraine's leadership came under particular scrutiny in October, when the New York Times reported that the American government was blaming it for a car-bomb that killed Darya Dugina, daughter of Alexander Dugin, a nationalistic philosopher. That sharpened an already-lively internal debate within Ukrainian intelligence. It was unclear if Ms Dugina was meant to die; some reports suggest she had switched cars with her father.
But a subsequent string of operations targeting mid-level propagandists showed a trend that few of the insiders interviewed for this article were happy with. "These are marginal figures," says one source in SBU counter-intelligence. "It makes me uncomfortable." The former SBU fifth-directorate officer suggests the operations were designed to impress the president rather than bring victory any closer.
https://www.economist.com/europe/2023/09/05/inside-ukraines-assassination-programme
1) A Ukrainian drone most likely headed for a military target is shot down by the Russians and smashes into a building, killing nobody;
2) A Ukrainian missile, whose destination is unknown, kills 7 in a border city; and
3) Ukrainians may be targeting traitors in clinical operations in Ukrainian occupied territory.
Really? That's all you have?
And you have no response to the numerous actual human rights atrocities I referenced above?
Why am I not surprised?
2. It most likely had no specific destination. More on that later.
3. Not surprised that you support extrajudicial killing of noncombatants by Ukraine. Like you said, I guess it all depends on the actor. It is disturbing that you consider "mid-level propaganda" and "nationalistic philosophy" to be forms of treason. But that's not even the most glaring flaw in your argument. Again with emphasis: "Over 18 months of war, dozens of people like Yunakov have been targeted in clinical operations across occupied Ukraine and inside Russia itself." Alexander Dugin was Russian, not Ukrainian. So no matter what you think of his opinions, he was no traitor to Ukraine. Much less his daughter, who was murdered on her way to an art festival outside Moscow.
But that's all just fine with you.
The only person fine with the double standard is yourself. You're ok with Russia invading and killing civilians. You are ok with a disproportionate number of Ukrainian civilian deaths. You won't say a word against Putin because of it.
Dozens of civilians throughout the Middle East are killed by US air strikes almost every year.
Thousands of innocent Iraqi civilians were killed by US air strikes during Desert Storm.
Thousands of Korean civilians, both North and South, were killed by US airs strikes during the Korean War.
Tens of thousands of innocent Vietnamese civilians were killed by US air strikes during the Vietnam War.
Hundreds of thousands of Japanese civilians were killed by US air strikes during World War II. Many burned alive or slowly eaten away by nuclear radiation.
Hundreds of thousands of German civilians were killed by US air strikes. Including a huge number of women and children.
From much of the worlds perspective, the US track record is little different from that of Putin..
Thousands of innocent Iraqi civilians were killed by US air strikes during Desert Storm.
Thousands of Korean civilians, both North and South, were killed by US airs strikes during the Korean War.
Tens of thousands of innocent Vietnamese civilians were killed by US air strikes during the Vietnam War.
Hundreds of thousands of Japanese civilians were killed by US air strikes during World War II. Many burned alive or slowly eaten away by nuclear radiation.
Hundreds of thousands of German civilians were killed by US air strikes. Including a huge number of women and children.
From much of the worlds perspective, the US track record is little different from that of Putin..
The Japanese killed more civilians from 1937 to 1945 than the U.S. has in all of those conflicts combined. Germany needs no explanation and exceeds Japan. Are we holding them to this same "track record" perspective?KaiBear said:
Dozens of civilians throughout the Middle East are killed by US air strikes almost every year.
Thousands of innocent Iraqi civilians were killed by US air strikes during Desert Storm.
Thousands of Korean civilians, both North and South, were killed by US airs strikes during the Korean War.
Tens of thousands of innocent Vietnamese civilians were killed by US air strikes during the Vietnam War.
Hundreds of thousands of Japanese civilians were killed by US air strikes during World War II. Many burned alive or slowly eaten away by nuclear radiation.
Hundreds of thousands of German civilians were killed by US air strikes. Including a huge number of women and children.
From much of the worlds perspective, the US track record is little different from that of Putin..
ATL Bear said:The Japanese killed more civilians from 1937 to 1945 than the U.S. has in all of those conflicts combined. Germany needs no explanation and exceeds Japan. Are we holding them to this same "track record" perspective?KaiBear said:
Dozens of civilians throughout the Middle East are killed by US air strikes almost every year.
Thousands of innocent Iraqi civilians were killed by US air strikes during Desert Storm.
Thousands of Korean civilians, both North and South, were killed by US airs strikes during the Korean War.
Tens of thousands of innocent Vietnamese civilians were killed by US air strikes during the Vietnam War.
Hundreds of thousands of Japanese civilians were killed by US air strikes during World War II. Many burned alive or slowly eaten away by nuclear radiation.
Hundreds of thousands of German civilians were killed by US air strikes. Including a huge number of women and children.
From much of the worlds perspective, the US track record is little different from that of Putin..
The Germans at least own their atrocities.
The Japanese do not . Which infuriates much of the rest of the Far East .
We just like to pretend all the countries we have bombed have no reason to dislike American policies . That somehow people throughout the world should be grateful for American generosity despite accidentally killing their people. Be it a few dozen or a few million.
Outside of perhaps North Korea and some of the Middle Eastern countries, if they dislike American policies, it has nothing to do with bombings during wars that ended 50-75 years ago. Since that encompasses about 95%+ of the civilian casualties from your list, I'm not sure that's the "perspective" driver you believe it to be. This sounds more like revisionist American guilt.KaiBear said:ATL Bear said:The Japanese killed more civilians from 1937 to 1945 than the U.S. has in all of those conflicts combined. Germany needs no explanation and exceeds Japan. Are we holding them to this same "track record" perspective?KaiBear said:
Dozens of civilians throughout the Middle East are killed by US air strikes almost every year.
Thousands of innocent Iraqi civilians were killed by US air strikes during Desert Storm.
Thousands of Korean civilians, both North and South, were killed by US airs strikes during the Korean War.
Tens of thousands of innocent Vietnamese civilians were killed by US air strikes during the Vietnam War.
Hundreds of thousands of Japanese civilians were killed by US air strikes during World War II. Many burned alive or slowly eaten away by nuclear radiation.
Hundreds of thousands of German civilians were killed by US air strikes. Including a huge number of women and children.
From much of the worlds perspective, the US track record is little different from that of Putin..
The Germans at least own their atrocities.
The Japanese do not . Which infuriates much of the rest of the Far East .
We just like to pretend all the countries we have bombed have no reason to dislike American policies . That somehow people throughout the world should be grateful for American generosity despite accidentally killing their people. Be it a few dozen or a few million.
No guilt.ATL Bear said:Outside of perhaps North Korea and some of the Middle Eastern countries, if they dislike American policies, it has nothing to do with bombings during wars that ended 50-75 years ago. Since that encompasses about 95%+ of the civilian casualties from your list, I'm not sure that's the "perspective" driver you believe it to be. This sounds more like revisionist American guilt.KaiBear said:ATL Bear said:The Japanese killed more civilians from 1937 to 1945 than the U.S. has in all of those conflicts combined. Germany needs no explanation and exceeds Japan. Are we holding them to this same "track record" perspective?KaiBear said:
Dozens of civilians throughout the Middle East are killed by US air strikes almost every year.
Thousands of innocent Iraqi civilians were killed by US air strikes during Desert Storm.
Thousands of Korean civilians, both North and South, were killed by US airs strikes during the Korean War.
Tens of thousands of innocent Vietnamese civilians were killed by US air strikes during the Vietnam War.
Hundreds of thousands of Japanese civilians were killed by US air strikes during World War II. Many burned alive or slowly eaten away by nuclear radiation.
Hundreds of thousands of German civilians were killed by US air strikes. Including a huge number of women and children.
From much of the worlds perspective, the US track record is little different from that of Putin..
The Germans at least own their atrocities.
The Japanese do not . Which infuriates much of the rest of the Far East .
We just like to pretend all the countries we have bombed have no reason to dislike American policies . That somehow people throughout the world should be grateful for American generosity despite accidentally killing their people. Be it a few dozen or a few million.
Just first hand observations.
Southerners still rehash the Civil War to a far greater degree than Yankees. Primarily because the South suffered far more local destruction of their homes, farms and businesses. And the flagrant hypocrisy and violence of Reconstruction caused at least as much bitterness especially with southern women ( southern men in many cases had seen enough bloodshed and somewhat accepted their defeat ).
Same applies to Germans for example. As the victors we are more than willing move on. As our cities were not utterly destroyed nor did we suffer from serious food shortages for 2-3 years after the wars end. Will never forget meeting a young couple from Dresden. The couple went out of their way to show me their family album. At least half of the pictures showed Dresden burned to the ground and bodies reduced tio ashes. Naturally the horrible deaths to their descendants makes a far bigger impression to them than to us.
BTW they said I was the ONLY American they had ever met who had even the slightest knowledge about the horrors of the Dresden firebombing. They were glad to be out of East Germany and working in the US ; but amazed at the International cluelessness of the American people.
And that is the only point I am trying to make.
The rest of the world does not look at the destructive actions of US foreign policy as benignly as we blissfully think they should.
And for very natural reasons.
That's salty coming from the folks who denied knowledge of concentration camps and the exterminations of jews and gypsies . . .KaiBear said:No guilt.ATL Bear said:Outside of perhaps North Korea and some of the Middle Eastern countries, if they dislike American policies, it has nothing to do with bombings during wars that ended 50-75 years ago. Since that encompasses about 95%+ of the civilian casualties from your list, I'm not sure that's the "perspective" driver you believe it to be. This sounds more like revisionist American guilt.KaiBear said:ATL Bear said:The Japanese killed more civilians from 1937 to 1945 than the U.S. has in all of those conflicts combined. Germany needs no explanation and exceeds Japan. Are we holding them to this same "track record" perspective?KaiBear said:
Dozens of civilians throughout the Middle East are killed by US air strikes almost every year.
Thousands of innocent Iraqi civilians were killed by US air strikes during Desert Storm.
Thousands of Korean civilians, both North and South, were killed by US airs strikes during the Korean War.
Tens of thousands of innocent Vietnamese civilians were killed by US air strikes during the Vietnam War.
Hundreds of thousands of Japanese civilians were killed by US air strikes during World War II. Many burned alive or slowly eaten away by nuclear radiation.
Hundreds of thousands of German civilians were killed by US air strikes. Including a huge number of women and children.
From much of the worlds perspective, the US track record is little different from that of Putin..
The Germans at least own their atrocities.
The Japanese do not . Which infuriates much of the rest of the Far East .
We just like to pretend all the countries we have bombed have no reason to dislike American policies . That somehow people throughout the world should be grateful for American generosity despite accidentally killing their people. Be it a few dozen or a few million.
Just first hand observations.
Southerners still rehash the Civil War to a far greater degree than Yankees. Primarily because the South suffered far more local destruction of their homes, farms and businesses. And the flagrant hypocrisy and violence of Reconstruction caused at least as much bitterness especially with southern women ( southern men in many cases had seen enough bloodshed and somewhat accepted their defeat ).
Same applies to Germans for example. As the victors we are more than willing move on. As our cities were not utterly destroyed nor did we suffer from serious food shortages for 2-3 years after the wars end. Will never forget meeting a young couple from Dresden. The couple went out of their way to show me their family album. At least half of the pictures showed Dresden burned to the ground and bodies reduced tio ashes. Naturally the horrible deaths to their descendants makes a far bigger impression to them than to us.
BTW they said I was the ONLY American they had ever met who had even the slightest knowledge about the horrors of the Dresden firebombing. They were glad to be out of East Germany and working in the US ; but amazed at the International cluelessness of the American people.
And that is the only point I am trying to make.
The rest of the world does not look at the destructive actions of US foreign policy as benignly as we blissfully think they should.
And for very natural reasons.
You can rant and rave about exaggerated Russian atrocities, but anyone trying to provide a little perspective is creating "disproportion." Sounds like the double standard is all on your side.Mothra said:Who said I was fine with extrajudicial killings? Undoubtedly, there are bad actors on both sides. What's interesting to me, however, is both the disproportion and double standard, which you seem to be perfectly fine with. I mean, we literally have at a minimum 10,000 Ukrainian citizens killed, and I pointed out numerous instances of Russia targeting civilians, yet your response is, what about the targeted extra judicial killings of traitors? Hell, you don't say a word when another Russian oligarch or political opponent is imprisoned, poisoned or falls from a tall window, but now all of the sudden the Ukrainians are the bad guys for killing traitors. Yet, not a word from you when Putin does it?Sam Lowry said:1. There's no evidence that it was headed for a military target. To repeat with added emphasis this time: "Drone air strikes deep inside Russia have increased since a drone was destroyed over the Kremlin in early May. Civilian areas of the capital were hit later in May and a Moscow business district was targeted twice in three days earlier this month.Mothra said:So, your evidence of these alleged civilian attacks is:Sam Lowry said:Quote:
MOSCOW, Aug 18 (Reuters) - A Ukrainian drone smashed into a building in central Moscow on Friday after Russian air defences shot it down, disrupting air traffic at all the civilian airports of the Russian capital, Russian officials said.
A Reuters witness who was in the area described hearing "a powerful explosion". Reuters images showed workers and emergency workers inspecting a damaged roof of a non-residential building which the drone hit.
Drone air strikes deep inside Russia have increased since a drone was destroyed over the Kremlin in early May. Civilian areas of the capital were hit later in May and a Moscow business district was targeted twice in three days earlier this month.
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/drone-attack-damaged-building-moscow-centre-2023-08-18/Quote:
BELGOROD, Russia, Feb 15 (Reuters) - Seven people including a one-year-old girl were killed in a Ukrainian missile attack on Thursday on the southern Russian city of Belgorod, regional governor Vyacheslav Gladkov said.
Eighteen other people, including four children, were hospitalised with injuries, with six in serious condition, Gladkov said, adding that four people, including two children, had already been released for outpatient treatment. He said the dead child's name was Valentina.
"We are all grieving with the families and friends of the victims," Gladkov wrote on Telegram. "I want to express my sincere condolences, realising that there are no words that can comfort this grief."
Later Gladkov said that another four injured, including two children, would be treated in Moscow.
Belgorod is the nearest major Russian city to the border with Ukraine, and the city and surrounding region have come under frequent attack since February 2022, when Russia sent its forces into Ukraine in what it calls a "special military operation".
Russian authorities said 25 civilians were killed in the largest of these attacks at the end of December.
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/least-four-killed-ukrainian-missile-strike-belgorod-russian-media-2024-02-15/Quote:
THE OPERATION was a month in the making. Yevhen Yunakov, the mayor of Velykyi Burluk, in the Kharkiv region, had been identified as a collaborator with the Russians. "Caucasus", a special-forces commander, and a group of local officers were given the job. His men watched their target meticulously for days: when he shopped; when and where he moved; the extent of his security. Once they detonated their bomb, from a distance, they disappeared to safe-houses inside occupied territory. The group would return to Ukrainian-controlled territory only weeks later, after the town had been liberated. Yunakov's body has never been found.
Over 18 months of war, dozens of people like Yunakov have been targeted in clinical operations across occupied Ukraine and inside Russia itself. They have been shot, blown up, hanged and even, on occasion, poisoned with doctored brandy. Ukraine is tight-lipped about its involvement in assassinations. But few doubt the increasingly competent signature of its security services.
Ukraine's leadership came under particular scrutiny in October, when the New York Times reported that the American government was blaming it for a car-bomb that killed Darya Dugina, daughter of Alexander Dugin, a nationalistic philosopher. That sharpened an already-lively internal debate within Ukrainian intelligence. It was unclear if Ms Dugina was meant to die; some reports suggest she had switched cars with her father.
But a subsequent string of operations targeting mid-level propagandists showed a trend that few of the insiders interviewed for this article were happy with. "These are marginal figures," says one source in SBU counter-intelligence. "It makes me uncomfortable." The former SBU fifth-directorate officer suggests the operations were designed to impress the president rather than bring victory any closer.
https://www.economist.com/europe/2023/09/05/inside-ukraines-assassination-programme
1) A Ukrainian drone most likely headed for a military target is shot down by the Russians and smashes into a building, killing nobody;
2) A Ukrainian missile, whose destination is unknown, kills 7 in a border city; and
3) Ukrainians may be targeting traitors in clinical operations in Ukrainian occupied territory.
Really? That's all you have?
And you have no response to the numerous actual human rights atrocities I referenced above?
Why am I not surprised?
2. It most likely had no specific destination. More on that later.
3. Not surprised that you support extrajudicial killing of noncombatants by Ukraine. Like you said, I guess it all depends on the actor. It is disturbing that you consider "mid-level propaganda" and "nationalistic philosophy" to be forms of treason. But that's not even the most glaring flaw in your argument. Again with emphasis: "Over 18 months of war, dozens of people like Yunakov have been targeted in clinical operations across occupied Ukraine and inside Russia itself." Alexander Dugin was Russian, not Ukrainian. So no matter what you think of his opinions, he was no traitor to Ukraine. Much less his daughter, who was murdered on her way to an art festival outside Moscow.
But that's all just fine with you.
The only person fine with the double standard is yourself. You're ok with Russia invading and killing civilians. You are ok with a disproportionate number of Ukrainian civilian deaths. You won't say a word against Putin because of it.
LOL Russian cuck gonna cuck.Sam Lowry said:You can rant and rave about exaggerated Russian atrocities, but anyone trying to provide a little perspective is creating "disproportion." Sounds like the double standard is all on your side.Mothra said:Who said I was fine with extrajudicial killings? Undoubtedly, there are bad actors on both sides. What's interesting to me, however, is both the disproportion and double standard, which you seem to be perfectly fine with. I mean, we literally have at a minimum 10,000 Ukrainian citizens killed, and I pointed out numerous instances of Russia targeting civilians, yet your response is, what about the targeted extra judicial killings of traitors? Hell, you don't say a word when another Russian oligarch or political opponent is imprisoned, poisoned or falls from a tall window, but now all of the sudden the Ukrainians are the bad guys for killing traitors. Yet, not a word from you when Putin does it?Sam Lowry said:1. There's no evidence that it was headed for a military target. To repeat with added emphasis this time: "Drone air strikes deep inside Russia have increased since a drone was destroyed over the Kremlin in early May. Civilian areas of the capital were hit later in May and a Moscow business district was targeted twice in three days earlier this month.Mothra said:So, your evidence of these alleged civilian attacks is:Sam Lowry said:Quote:
MOSCOW, Aug 18 (Reuters) - A Ukrainian drone smashed into a building in central Moscow on Friday after Russian air defences shot it down, disrupting air traffic at all the civilian airports of the Russian capital, Russian officials said.
A Reuters witness who was in the area described hearing "a powerful explosion". Reuters images showed workers and emergency workers inspecting a damaged roof of a non-residential building which the drone hit.
Drone air strikes deep inside Russia have increased since a drone was destroyed over the Kremlin in early May. Civilian areas of the capital were hit later in May and a Moscow business district was targeted twice in three days earlier this month.
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/drone-attack-damaged-building-moscow-centre-2023-08-18/Quote:
BELGOROD, Russia, Feb 15 (Reuters) - Seven people including a one-year-old girl were killed in a Ukrainian missile attack on Thursday on the southern Russian city of Belgorod, regional governor Vyacheslav Gladkov said.
Eighteen other people, including four children, were hospitalised with injuries, with six in serious condition, Gladkov said, adding that four people, including two children, had already been released for outpatient treatment. He said the dead child's name was Valentina.
"We are all grieving with the families and friends of the victims," Gladkov wrote on Telegram. "I want to express my sincere condolences, realising that there are no words that can comfort this grief."
Later Gladkov said that another four injured, including two children, would be treated in Moscow.
Belgorod is the nearest major Russian city to the border with Ukraine, and the city and surrounding region have come under frequent attack since February 2022, when Russia sent its forces into Ukraine in what it calls a "special military operation".
Russian authorities said 25 civilians were killed in the largest of these attacks at the end of December.
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/least-four-killed-ukrainian-missile-strike-belgorod-russian-media-2024-02-15/Quote:
THE OPERATION was a month in the making. Yevhen Yunakov, the mayor of Velykyi Burluk, in the Kharkiv region, had been identified as a collaborator with the Russians. "Caucasus", a special-forces commander, and a group of local officers were given the job. His men watched their target meticulously for days: when he shopped; when and where he moved; the extent of his security. Once they detonated their bomb, from a distance, they disappeared to safe-houses inside occupied territory. The group would return to Ukrainian-controlled territory only weeks later, after the town had been liberated. Yunakov's body has never been found.
Over 18 months of war, dozens of people like Yunakov have been targeted in clinical operations across occupied Ukraine and inside Russia itself. They have been shot, blown up, hanged and even, on occasion, poisoned with doctored brandy. Ukraine is tight-lipped about its involvement in assassinations. But few doubt the increasingly competent signature of its security services.
Ukraine's leadership came under particular scrutiny in October, when the New York Times reported that the American government was blaming it for a car-bomb that killed Darya Dugina, daughter of Alexander Dugin, a nationalistic philosopher. That sharpened an already-lively internal debate within Ukrainian intelligence. It was unclear if Ms Dugina was meant to die; some reports suggest she had switched cars with her father.
But a subsequent string of operations targeting mid-level propagandists showed a trend that few of the insiders interviewed for this article were happy with. "These are marginal figures," says one source in SBU counter-intelligence. "It makes me uncomfortable." The former SBU fifth-directorate officer suggests the operations were designed to impress the president rather than bring victory any closer.
https://www.economist.com/europe/2023/09/05/inside-ukraines-assassination-programme
1) A Ukrainian drone most likely headed for a military target is shot down by the Russians and smashes into a building, killing nobody;
2) A Ukrainian missile, whose destination is unknown, kills 7 in a border city; and
3) Ukrainians may be targeting traitors in clinical operations in Ukrainian occupied territory.
Really? That's all you have?
And you have no response to the numerous actual human rights atrocities I referenced above?
Why am I not surprised?
2. It most likely had no specific destination. More on that later.
3. Not surprised that you support extrajudicial killing of noncombatants by Ukraine. Like you said, I guess it all depends on the actor. It is disturbing that you consider "mid-level propaganda" and "nationalistic philosophy" to be forms of treason. But that's not even the most glaring flaw in your argument. Again with emphasis: "Over 18 months of war, dozens of people like Yunakov have been targeted in clinical operations across occupied Ukraine and inside Russia itself." Alexander Dugin was Russian, not Ukrainian. So no matter what you think of his opinions, he was no traitor to Ukraine. Much less his daughter, who was murdered on her way to an art festival outside Moscow.
But that's all just fine with you.
The only person fine with the double standard is yourself. You're ok with Russia invading and killing civilians. You are ok with a disproportionate number of Ukrainian civilian deaths. You won't say a word against Putin because of it.
sombear said:That's salty coming from the folks who denied knowledge of concentration camps and the exterminations of jews and gypsies . . .KaiBear said:No guilt.ATL Bear said:Outside of perhaps North Korea and some of the Middle Eastern countries, if they dislike American policies, it has nothing to do with bombings during wars that ended 50-75 years ago. Since that encompasses about 95%+ of the civilian casualties from your list, I'm not sure that's the "perspective" driver you believe it to be. This sounds more like revisionist American guilt.KaiBear said:ATL Bear said:The Japanese killed more civilians from 1937 to 1945 than the U.S. has in all of those conflicts combined. Germany needs no explanation and exceeds Japan. Are we holding them to this same "track record" perspective?KaiBear said:
Dozens of civilians throughout the Middle East are killed by US air strikes almost every year.
Thousands of innocent Iraqi civilians were killed by US air strikes during Desert Storm.
Thousands of Korean civilians, both North and South, were killed by US airs strikes during the Korean War.
Tens of thousands of innocent Vietnamese civilians were killed by US air strikes during the Vietnam War.
Hundreds of thousands of Japanese civilians were killed by US air strikes during World War II. Many burned alive or slowly eaten away by nuclear radiation.
Hundreds of thousands of German civilians were killed by US air strikes. Including a huge number of women and children.
From much of the worlds perspective, the US track record is little different from that of Putin..
The Germans at least own their atrocities.
The Japanese do not . Which infuriates much of the rest of the Far East .
We just like to pretend all the countries we have bombed have no reason to dislike American policies . That somehow people throughout the world should be grateful for American generosity despite accidentally killing their people. Be it a few dozen or a few million.
Just first hand observations.
Southerners still rehash the Civil War to a far greater degree than Yankees. Primarily because the South suffered far more local destruction of their homes, farms and businesses. And the flagrant hypocrisy and violence of Reconstruction caused at least as much bitterness especially with southern women ( southern men in many cases had seen enough bloodshed and somewhat accepted their defeat ).
Same applies to Germans for example. As the victors we are more than willing move on. As our cities were not utterly destroyed nor did we suffer from serious food shortages for 2-3 years after the wars end. Will never forget meeting a young couple from Dresden. The couple went out of their way to show me their family album. At least half of the pictures showed Dresden burned to the ground and bodies reduced tio ashes. Naturally the horrible deaths to their descendants makes a far bigger impression to them than to us.
BTW they said I was the ONLY American they had ever met who had even the slightest knowledge about the horrors of the Dresden firebombing. They were glad to be out of East Germany and working in the US ; but amazed at the International cluelessness of the American people.
And that is the only point I am trying to make.
The rest of the world does not look at the destructive actions of US foreign policy as benignly as we blissfully think they should.
And for very natural reasons.
I have never known a single German who wasn't ashamed of the Nazi death camps or the horrors of the Final Solution.
Whereas I have never met a single American under the age of 60 who was aware of the US fire bombing of Tokyo when the US incinerated 100,000 Japanese civilians in a single night .
There are countless Germans who still say it was exaggerated and/or still make excuses.KaiBear said:sombear said:That's salty coming from the folks who denied knowledge of concentration camps and the exterminations of jews and gypsies . . .KaiBear said:No guilt.ATL Bear said:Outside of perhaps North Korea and some of the Middle Eastern countries, if they dislike American policies, it has nothing to do with bombings during wars that ended 50-75 years ago. Since that encompasses about 95%+ of the civilian casualties from your list, I'm not sure that's the "perspective" driver you believe it to be. This sounds more like revisionist American guilt.KaiBear said:ATL Bear said:The Japanese killed more civilians from 1937 to 1945 than the U.S. has in all of those conflicts combined. Germany needs no explanation and exceeds Japan. Are we holding them to this same "track record" perspective?KaiBear said:
Dozens of civilians throughout the Middle East are killed by US air strikes almost every year.
Thousands of innocent Iraqi civilians were killed by US air strikes during Desert Storm.
Thousands of Korean civilians, both North and South, were killed by US airs strikes during the Korean War.
Tens of thousands of innocent Vietnamese civilians were killed by US air strikes during the Vietnam War.
Hundreds of thousands of Japanese civilians were killed by US air strikes during World War II. Many burned alive or slowly eaten away by nuclear radiation.
Hundreds of thousands of German civilians were killed by US air strikes. Including a huge number of women and children.
From much of the worlds perspective, the US track record is little different from that of Putin..
The Germans at least own their atrocities.
The Japanese do not . Which infuriates much of the rest of the Far East .
We just like to pretend all the countries we have bombed have no reason to dislike American policies . That somehow people throughout the world should be grateful for American generosity despite accidentally killing their people. Be it a few dozen or a few million.
Just first hand observations.
Southerners still rehash the Civil War to a far greater degree than Yankees. Primarily because the South suffered far more local destruction of their homes, farms and businesses. And the flagrant hypocrisy and violence of Reconstruction caused at least as much bitterness especially with southern women ( southern men in many cases had seen enough bloodshed and somewhat accepted their defeat ).
Same applies to Germans for example. As the victors we are more than willing move on. As our cities were not utterly destroyed nor did we suffer from serious food shortages for 2-3 years after the wars end. Will never forget meeting a young couple from Dresden. The couple went out of their way to show me their family album. At least half of the pictures showed Dresden burned to the ground and bodies reduced tio ashes. Naturally the horrible deaths to their descendants makes a far bigger impression to them than to us.
BTW they said I was the ONLY American they had ever met who had even the slightest knowledge about the horrors of the Dresden firebombing. They were glad to be out of East Germany and working in the US ; but amazed at the International cluelessness of the American people.
And that is the only point I am trying to make.
The rest of the world does not look at the destructive actions of US foreign policy as benignly as we blissfully think they should.
And for very natural reasons.
I have never known a single German who wasn't ashamed of the Nazi death camps or the horrors of the Final Solution.
Whereas I have never met a single American under the age of 60 who was aware of the US fire bombing of Tokyo when the US incinerated 100,000 Japanese civilians in a single night .
Really, you know that many people who don't know we bombed Tokyo? That surprises me.
sombear said:There are countless Germans who still say it was exaggerated and/or still make excuses.KaiBear said:sombear said:That's salty coming from the folks who denied knowledge of concentration camps and the exterminations of jews and gypsies . . .KaiBear said:No guilt.ATL Bear said:Outside of perhaps North Korea and some of the Middle Eastern countries, if they dislike American policies, it has nothing to do with bombings during wars that ended 50-75 years ago. Since that encompasses about 95%+ of the civilian casualties from your list, I'm not sure that's the "perspective" driver you believe it to be. This sounds more like revisionist American guilt.KaiBear said:ATL Bear said:The Japanese killed more civilians from 1937 to 1945 than the U.S. has in all of those conflicts combined. Germany needs no explanation and exceeds Japan. Are we holding them to this same "track record" perspective?KaiBear said:
Dozens of civilians throughout the Middle East are killed by US air strikes almost every year.
Thousands of innocent Iraqi civilians were killed by US air strikes during Desert Storm.
Thousands of Korean civilians, both North and South, were killed by US airs strikes during the Korean War.
Tens of thousands of innocent Vietnamese civilians were killed by US air strikes during the Vietnam War.
Hundreds of thousands of Japanese civilians were killed by US air strikes during World War II. Many burned alive or slowly eaten away by nuclear radiation.
Hundreds of thousands of German civilians were killed by US air strikes. Including a huge number of women and children.
From much of the worlds perspective, the US track record is little different from that of Putin..
The Germans at least own their atrocities.
The Japanese do not . Which infuriates much of the rest of the Far East .
We just like to pretend all the countries we have bombed have no reason to dislike American policies . That somehow people throughout the world should be grateful for American generosity despite accidentally killing their people. Be it a few dozen or a few million.
Just first hand observations.
Southerners still rehash the Civil War to a far greater degree than Yankees. Primarily because the South suffered far more local destruction of their homes, farms and businesses. And the flagrant hypocrisy and violence of Reconstruction caused at least as much bitterness especially with southern women ( southern men in many cases had seen enough bloodshed and somewhat accepted their defeat ).
Same applies to Germans for example. As the victors we are more than willing move on. As our cities were not utterly destroyed nor did we suffer from serious food shortages for 2-3 years after the wars end. Will never forget meeting a young couple from Dresden. The couple went out of their way to show me their family album. At least half of the pictures showed Dresden burned to the ground and bodies reduced tio ashes. Naturally the horrible deaths to their descendants makes a far bigger impression to them than to us.
BTW they said I was the ONLY American they had ever met who had even the slightest knowledge about the horrors of the Dresden firebombing. They were glad to be out of East Germany and working in the US ; but amazed at the International cluelessness of the American people.
And that is the only point I am trying to make.
The rest of the world does not look at the destructive actions of US foreign policy as benignly as we blissfully think they should.
And for very natural reasons.
I have never known a single German who wasn't ashamed of the Nazi death camps or the horrors of the Final Solution.
Whereas I have never met a single American under the age of 60 who was aware of the US fire bombing of Tokyo when the US incinerated 100,000 Japanese civilians in a single night .
Really, you know that many people who don't know we bombed Tokyo? That surprises me.
Have never met one of your 'countless' Germans .
Although I know some Americans who believe the death camps never existed .
Nope, have never met anyone under the age of 60 who was aware of the Tokyo fire bombing , or for that matter that Curtis LeMay was so pleased with the results he ordered several other Japanese cities to be likewise fire bombed .
Another basically hidden aspect of American WW2 atrocities was the estimated 50,000 Japanese girls and women reportedly raped by US occupation troops . In fairness those figures are from Japanese sources and are hotly disputed by the US government. Or the fact that the Japanese civilian population had to deal with near starvation food rationing for 2-3 years after the war ended.
As the Japanese merchant fleet had been completely sunk and as an island nation Japan did not have the resources to feed themselves . Apparently it was a problem few American military or political planners had anticipated to any great degree.
KaiBear said:sombear said:There are countless Germans who still say it was exaggerated and/or still make excuses.KaiBear said:sombear said:That's salty coming from the folks who denied knowledge of concentration camps and the exterminations of jews and gypsies . . .KaiBear said:No guilt.ATL Bear said:Outside of perhaps North Korea and some of the Middle Eastern countries, if they dislike American policies, it has nothing to do with bombings during wars that ended 50-75 years ago. Since that encompasses about 95%+ of the civilian casualties from your list, I'm not sure that's the "perspective" driver you believe it to be. This sounds more like revisionist American guilt.KaiBear said:ATL Bear said:The Japanese killed more civilians from 1937 to 1945 than the U.S. has in all of those conflicts combined. Germany needs no explanation and exceeds Japan. Are we holding them to this same "track record" perspective?KaiBear said:
Dozens of civilians throughout the Middle East are killed by US air strikes almost every year.
Thousands of innocent Iraqi civilians were killed by US air strikes during Desert Storm.
Thousands of Korean civilians, both North and South, were killed by US airs strikes during the Korean War.
Tens of thousands of innocent Vietnamese civilians were killed by US air strikes during the Vietnam War.
Hundreds of thousands of Japanese civilians were killed by US air strikes during World War II. Many burned alive or slowly eaten away by nuclear radiation.
Hundreds of thousands of German civilians were killed by US air strikes. Including a huge number of women and children.
From much of the worlds perspective, the US track record is little different from that of Putin..
The Germans at least own their atrocities.
The Japanese do not . Which infuriates much of the rest of the Far East .
We just like to pretend all the countries we have bombed have no reason to dislike American policies . That somehow people throughout the world should be grateful for American generosity despite accidentally killing their people. Be it a few dozen or a few million.
Just first hand observations.
Southerners still rehash the Civil War to a far greater degree than Yankees. Primarily because the South suffered far more local destruction of their homes, farms and businesses. And the flagrant hypocrisy and violence of Reconstruction caused at least as much bitterness especially with southern women ( southern men in many cases had seen enough bloodshed and somewhat accepted their defeat ).
Same applies to Germans for example. As the victors we are more than willing move on. As our cities were not utterly destroyed nor did we suffer from serious food shortages for 2-3 years after the wars end. Will never forget meeting a young couple from Dresden. The couple went out of their way to show me their family album. At least half of the pictures showed Dresden burned to the ground and bodies reduced tio ashes. Naturally the horrible deaths to their descendants makes a far bigger impression to them than to us.
BTW they said I was the ONLY American they had ever met who had even the slightest knowledge about the horrors of the Dresden firebombing. They were glad to be out of East Germany and working in the US ; but amazed at the International cluelessness of the American people.
And that is the only point I am trying to make.
The rest of the world does not look at the destructive actions of US foreign policy as benignly as we blissfully think they should.
And for very natural reasons.
I have never known a single German who wasn't ashamed of the Nazi death camps or the horrors of the Final Solution.
Whereas I have never met a single American under the age of 60 who was aware of the US fire bombing of Tokyo when the US incinerated 100,000 Japanese civilians in a single night .
Really, you know that many people who don't know we bombed Tokyo? That surprises me.
Have never met one of your 'countless' Germans .
Although I know some Americans who believe the death camps never existed .
Nope, have never met anyone under the age of 60 who was aware of the Tokyo fire bombing , or for that matter that Curtis LeMay was so pleased with the results he ordered several other Japanese cities to be likewise fire bombed .
Another basically hidden aspect of American WW2 atrocities was the estimated 50,000 Japanese girls and women reportedly raped by US occupation troops . In fairness those figures are from Japanese sources and are hotly disputed by the US government. Or the fact that the Japanese civilian population had to deal with near starvation food rationing for 2-3 years after the war ended.
As the Japanese merchant fleet had been completely sunk and as an island nation Japan did not have the resources to feed themselves . Apparently it eas a problem few American military or political planners had anticipated to any great degree.
Few in recent human history have committed the kinds of atrocities Imperial Japan did.
sombear said:KaiBear said:sombear said:There are countless Germans who still say it was exaggerated and/or still make excuses.KaiBear said:sombear said:That's salty coming from the folks who denied knowledge of concentration camps and the exterminations of jews and gypsies . . .KaiBear said:No guilt.ATL Bear said:Outside of perhaps North Korea and some of the Middle Eastern countries, if they dislike American policies, it has nothing to do with bombings during wars that ended 50-75 years ago. Since that encompasses about 95%+ of the civilian casualties from your list, I'm not sure that's the "perspective" driver you believe it to be. This sounds more like revisionist American guilt.KaiBear said:ATL Bear said:The Japanese killed more civilians from 1937 to 1945 than the U.S. has in all of those conflicts combined. Germany needs no explanation and exceeds Japan. Are we holding them to this same "track record" perspective?KaiBear said:
Dozens of civilians throughout the Middle East are killed by US air strikes almost every year.
Thousands of innocent Iraqi civilians were killed by US air strikes during Desert Storm.
Thousands of Korean civilians, both North and South, were killed by US airs strikes during the Korean War.
Tens of thousands of innocent Vietnamese civilians were killed by US air strikes during the Vietnam War.
Hundreds of thousands of Japanese civilians were killed by US air strikes during World War II. Many burned alive or slowly eaten away by nuclear radiation.
Hundreds of thousands of German civilians were killed by US air strikes. Including a huge number of women and children.
From much of the worlds perspective, the US track record is little different from that of Putin..
The Germans at least own their atrocities.
The Japanese do not . Which infuriates much of the rest of the Far East .
We just like to pretend all the countries we have bombed have no reason to dislike American policies . That somehow people throughout the world should be grateful for American generosity despite accidentally killing their people. Be it a few dozen or a few million.
Just first hand observations.
Southerners still rehash the Civil War to a far greater degree than Yankees. Primarily because the South suffered far more local destruction of their homes, farms and businesses. And the flagrant hypocrisy and violence of Reconstruction caused at least as much bitterness especially with southern women ( southern men in many cases had seen enough bloodshed and somewhat accepted their defeat ).
Same applies to Germans for example. As the victors we are more than willing move on. As our cities were not utterly destroyed nor did we suffer from serious food shortages for 2-3 years after the wars end. Will never forget meeting a young couple from Dresden. The couple went out of their way to show me their family album. At least half of the pictures showed Dresden burned to the ground and bodies reduced tio ashes. Naturally the horrible deaths to their descendants makes a far bigger impression to them than to us.
BTW they said I was the ONLY American they had ever met who had even the slightest knowledge about the horrors of the Dresden firebombing. They were glad to be out of East Germany and working in the US ; but amazed at the International cluelessness of the American people.
And that is the only point I am trying to make.
The rest of the world does not look at the destructive actions of US foreign policy as benignly as we blissfully think they should.
And for very natural reasons.
I have never known a single German who wasn't ashamed of the Nazi death camps or the horrors of the Final Solution.
Whereas I have never met a single American under the age of 60 who was aware of the US fire bombing of Tokyo when the US incinerated 100,000 Japanese civilians in a single night .
Really, you know that many people who don't know we bombed Tokyo? That surprises me.
Have never met one of your 'countless' Germans .
Although I know some Americans who believe the death camps never existed .
Nope, have never met anyone under the age of 60 who was aware of the Tokyo fire bombing , or for that matter that Curtis LeMay was so pleased with the results he ordered several other Japanese cities to be likewise fire bombed .
Another basically hidden aspect of American WW2 atrocities was the estimated 50,000 Japanese girls and women reportedly raped by US occupation troops . In fairness those figures are from Japanese sources and are hotly disputed by the US government. Or the fact that the Japanese civilian population had to deal with near starvation food rationing for 2-3 years after the war ended.
As the Japanese merchant fleet had been completely sunk and as an island nation Japan did not have the resources to feed themselves . Apparently it eas a problem few American military or political planners had anticipated to any great degree.
Few in recent human history have committed the kinds of atrocities Imperial Japan did.
True
The Nazis for instance often hid their crimes from the regular German army and used "Einsatzgruppen" militia organizations and SS units to commit most of their crimes in Europe.
Japanese just used the army
sombear said:KaiBear said:sombear said:There are countless Germans who still say it was exaggerated and/or still make excuses.KaiBear said:sombear said:That's salty coming from the folks who denied knowledge of concentration camps and the exterminations of jews and gypsies . . .KaiBear said:No guilt.ATL Bear said:Outside of perhaps North Korea and some of the Middle Eastern countries, if they dislike American policies, it has nothing to do with bombings during wars that ended 50-75 years ago. Since that encompasses about 95%+ of the civilian casualties from your list, I'm not sure that's the "perspective" driver you believe it to be. This sounds more like revisionist American guilt.KaiBear said:ATL Bear said:The Japanese killed more civilians from 1937 to 1945 than the U.S. has in all of those conflicts combined. Germany needs no explanation and exceeds Japan. Are we holding them to this same "track record" perspective?KaiBear said:
Dozens of civilians throughout the Middle East are killed by US air strikes almost every year.
Thousands of innocent Iraqi civilians were killed by US air strikes during Desert Storm.
Thousands of Korean civilians, both North and South, were killed by US airs strikes during the Korean War.
Tens of thousands of innocent Vietnamese civilians were killed by US air strikes during the Vietnam War.
Hundreds of thousands of Japanese civilians were killed by US air strikes during World War II. Many burned alive or slowly eaten away by nuclear radiation.
Hundreds of thousands of German civilians were killed by US air strikes. Including a huge number of women and children.
From much of the worlds perspective, the US track record is little different from that of Putin..
The Germans at least own their atrocities.
The Japanese do not . Which infuriates much of the rest of the Far East .
We just like to pretend all the countries we have bombed have no reason to dislike American policies . That somehow people throughout the world should be grateful for American generosity despite accidentally killing their people. Be it a few dozen or a few million.
Just first hand observations.
Southerners still rehash the Civil War to a far greater degree than Yankees. Primarily because the South suffered far more local destruction of their homes, farms and businesses. And the flagrant hypocrisy and violence of Reconstruction caused at least as much bitterness especially with southern women ( southern men in many cases had seen enough bloodshed and somewhat accepted their defeat ).
Same applies to Germans for example. As the victors we are more than willing move on. As our cities were not utterly destroyed nor did we suffer from serious food shortages for 2-3 years after the wars end. Will never forget meeting a young couple from Dresden. The couple went out of their way to show me their family album. At least half of the pictures showed Dresden burned to the ground and bodies reduced tio ashes. Naturally the horrible deaths to their descendants makes a far bigger impression to them than to us.
BTW they said I was the ONLY American they had ever met who had even the slightest knowledge about the horrors of the Dresden firebombing. They were glad to be out of East Germany and working in the US ; but amazed at the International cluelessness of the American people.
And that is the only point I am trying to make.
The rest of the world does not look at the destructive actions of US foreign policy as benignly as we blissfully think they should.
And for very natural reasons.
I have never known a single German who wasn't ashamed of the Nazi death camps or the horrors of the Final Solution.
Whereas I have never met a single American under the age of 60 who was aware of the US fire bombing of Tokyo when the US incinerated 100,000 Japanese civilians in a single night .
Really, you know that many people who don't know we bombed Tokyo? That surprises me.
Have never met one of your 'countless' Germans .
Although I know some Americans who believe the death camps never existed .
Nope, have never met anyone under the age of 60 who was aware of the Tokyo fire bombing , or for that matter that Curtis LeMay was so pleased with the results he ordered several other Japanese cities to be likewise fire bombed .
Another basically hidden aspect of American WW2 atrocities was the estimated 50,000 Japanese girls and women reportedly raped by US occupation troops . In fairness those figures are from Japanese sources and are hotly disputed by the US government. Or the fact that the Japanese civilian population had to deal with near starvation food rationing for 2-3 years after the war ended.
As the Japanese merchant fleet had been completely sunk and as an island nation Japan did not have the resources to feed themselves . Apparently it eas a problem few American military or political planners had anticipated to any great degree.
Few in recent human history have committed the kinds of atrocities Imperial Japan did.
True to a point .
The Japanese Army employed low tech methods . Bayonets , decapitating prisoners , rape and summary executions.
The US used high tech methods ; atomic bombs , firebombs, and phosphorus artillery shells .
But the US won the war so we got to pick who were the war criminals .
Time will bring the details of what happened to light. As of now, it appears that it was a non-suicide attack by Tajiks who were apprehended trying to flee west, not east. Everyone can think about if this fits the standard jihad for allah model, or more of a covert operations model while we wait for more details to be revealed.
If the Russian suspicion of Ukrainian involvement is corroborated, I would expect the Russians to extinguish Ukraine as an independent political entity and any hope western Ukrainians have of their own EU affiliated rump state may be out the window.
If the Russian suspicion of Ukrainian involvement is corroborated, I would expect the Russians to extinguish Ukraine as an independent political entity and any hope western Ukrainians have of their own EU affiliated rump state may be out the window.
You really need to learn more about what Japan did in China, Korea and the Philippines, and I don't mean to American soldiers.KaiBear said:sombear said:KaiBear said:sombear said:There are countless Germans who still say it was exaggerated and/or still make excuses.KaiBear said:sombear said:That's salty coming from the folks who denied knowledge of concentration camps and the exterminations of jews and gypsies . . .KaiBear said:No guilt.ATL Bear said:Outside of perhaps North Korea and some of the Middle Eastern countries, if they dislike American policies, it has nothing to do with bombings during wars that ended 50-75 years ago. Since that encompasses about 95%+ of the civilian casualties from your list, I'm not sure that's the "perspective" driver you believe it to be. This sounds more like revisionist American guilt.KaiBear said:ATL Bear said:The Japanese killed more civilians from 1937 to 1945 than the U.S. has in all of those conflicts combined. Germany needs no explanation and exceeds Japan. Are we holding them to this same "track record" perspective?KaiBear said:
Dozens of civilians throughout the Middle East are killed by US air strikes almost every year.
Thousands of innocent Iraqi civilians were killed by US air strikes during Desert Storm.
Thousands of Korean civilians, both North and South, were killed by US airs strikes during the Korean War.
Tens of thousands of innocent Vietnamese civilians were killed by US air strikes during the Vietnam War.
Hundreds of thousands of Japanese civilians were killed by US air strikes during World War II. Many burned alive or slowly eaten away by nuclear radiation.
Hundreds of thousands of German civilians were killed by US air strikes. Including a huge number of women and children.
From much of the worlds perspective, the US track record is little different from that of Putin..
The Germans at least own their atrocities.
The Japanese do not . Which infuriates much of the rest of the Far East .
We just like to pretend all the countries we have bombed have no reason to dislike American policies . That somehow people throughout the world should be grateful for American generosity despite accidentally killing their people. Be it a few dozen or a few million.
Just first hand observations.
Southerners still rehash the Civil War to a far greater degree than Yankees. Primarily because the South suffered far more local destruction of their homes, farms and businesses. And the flagrant hypocrisy and violence of Reconstruction caused at least as much bitterness especially with southern women ( southern men in many cases had seen enough bloodshed and somewhat accepted their defeat ).
Same applies to Germans for example. As the victors we are more than willing move on. As our cities were not utterly destroyed nor did we suffer from serious food shortages for 2-3 years after the wars end. Will never forget meeting a young couple from Dresden. The couple went out of their way to show me their family album. At least half of the pictures showed Dresden burned to the ground and bodies reduced tio ashes. Naturally the horrible deaths to their descendants makes a far bigger impression to them than to us.
BTW they said I was the ONLY American they had ever met who had even the slightest knowledge about the horrors of the Dresden firebombing. They were glad to be out of East Germany and working in the US ; but amazed at the International cluelessness of the American people.
And that is the only point I am trying to make.
The rest of the world does not look at the destructive actions of US foreign policy as benignly as we blissfully think they should.
And for very natural reasons.
I have never known a single German who wasn't ashamed of the Nazi death camps or the horrors of the Final Solution.
Whereas I have never met a single American under the age of 60 who was aware of the US fire bombing of Tokyo when the US incinerated 100,000 Japanese civilians in a single night .
Really, you know that many people who don't know we bombed Tokyo? That surprises me.
Have never met one of your 'countless' Germans .
Although I know some Americans who believe the death camps never existed .
Nope, have never met anyone under the age of 60 who was aware of the Tokyo fire bombing , or for that matter that Curtis LeMay was so pleased with the results he ordered several other Japanese cities to be likewise fire bombed .
Another basically hidden aspect of American WW2 atrocities was the estimated 50,000 Japanese girls and women reportedly raped by US occupation troops . In fairness those figures are from Japanese sources and are hotly disputed by the US government. Or the fact that the Japanese civilian population had to deal with near starvation food rationing for 2-3 years after the war ended.
As the Japanese merchant fleet had been completely sunk and as an island nation Japan did not have the resources to feed themselves . Apparently it eas a problem few American military or political planners had anticipated to any great degree.
Few in recent human history have committed the kinds of atrocities Imperial Japan did.
True to a point .
The Japanese Army employed low tech methods . Bayonets , decapitating prisoners , rape and summary executions.
The US used high tech methods ; atomic bombs , firebombs, and phosphorus artillery shells .
But the US won the war so we got to pick who were the war criminals .
As it relates to WW2, this is a decidedly recent phenomena of revisionist historical perspectives from people far removed from the realities of warfare of that period and the nature of the conflict.KaiBear said:No guilt.ATL Bear said:Outside of perhaps North Korea and some of the Middle Eastern countries, if they dislike American policies, it has nothing to do with bombings during wars that ended 50-75 years ago. Since that encompasses about 95%+ of the civilian casualties from your list, I'm not sure that's the "perspective" driver you believe it to be. This sounds more like revisionist American guilt.KaiBear said:ATL Bear said:The Japanese killed more civilians from 1937 to 1945 than the U.S. has in all of those conflicts combined. Germany needs no explanation and exceeds Japan. Are we holding them to this same "track record" perspective?KaiBear said:
Dozens of civilians throughout the Middle East are killed by US air strikes almost every year.
Thousands of innocent Iraqi civilians were killed by US air strikes during Desert Storm.
Thousands of Korean civilians, both North and South, were killed by US airs strikes during the Korean War.
Tens of thousands of innocent Vietnamese civilians were killed by US air strikes during the Vietnam War.
Hundreds of thousands of Japanese civilians were killed by US air strikes during World War II. Many burned alive or slowly eaten away by nuclear radiation.
Hundreds of thousands of German civilians were killed by US air strikes. Including a huge number of women and children.
From much of the worlds perspective, the US track record is little different from that of Putin..
The Germans at least own their atrocities.
The Japanese do not . Which infuriates much of the rest of the Far East .
We just like to pretend all the countries we have bombed have no reason to dislike American policies . That somehow people throughout the world should be grateful for American generosity despite accidentally killing their people. Be it a few dozen or a few million.
Just first hand observations.
Southerners still rehash the Civil War to a far greater degree than Yankees. Primarily because the South suffered far more local destruction of their homes, farms and businesses. And the flagrant hypocrisy and violence of Reconstruction caused at least as much bitterness especially with southern women ( southern men in many cases had seen enough bloodshed and somewhat accepted their defeat ).
Same applies to Germans for example. As the victors we are more than willing move on. As our cities were not utterly destroyed nor did we suffer from serious food shortages for 2-3 years after the wars end. Will never forget meeting a young couple from Dresden. The couple went out of their way to show me their family album. At least half of the pictures showed Dresden burned to the ground and bodies reduced tio ashes. Naturally the horrible deaths to their descendants makes a far bigger impression to them than to us.
BTW they said I was the ONLY American they had ever met who had even the slightest knowledge about the horrors of the Dresden firebombing. They were glad to be out of East Germany and working in the US ; but amazed at the International cluelessness of the American people.
And that is the only point I am trying to make.
The rest of the world does not look at the destructive actions of US foreign policy as benignly as we blissfully think they should.
And for very natural reasons.
ATL Bear said:As it relates to WW2, this is a decidedly recent phenomena of revisionist historical perspectives from people far removed from the realities of warfare of that period and the nature of the conflict.KaiBear said:No guilt.ATL Bear said:Outside of perhaps North Korea and some of the Middle Eastern countries, if they dislike American policies, it has nothing to do with bombings during wars that ended 50-75 years ago. Since that encompasses about 95%+ of the civilian casualties from your list, I'm not sure that's the "perspective" driver you believe it to be. This sounds more like revisionist American guilt.KaiBear said:ATL Bear said:The Japanese killed more civilians from 1937 to 1945 than the U.S. has in all of those conflicts combined. Germany needs no explanation and exceeds Japan. Are we holding them to this same "track record" perspective?KaiBear said:
Dozens of civilians throughout the Middle East are killed by US air strikes almost every year.
Thousands of innocent Iraqi civilians were killed by US air strikes during Desert Storm.
Thousands of Korean civilians, both North and South, were killed by US airs strikes during the Korean War.
Tens of thousands of innocent Vietnamese civilians were killed by US air strikes during the Vietnam War.
Hundreds of thousands of Japanese civilians were killed by US air strikes during World War II. Many burned alive or slowly eaten away by nuclear radiation.
Hundreds of thousands of German civilians were killed by US air strikes. Including a huge number of women and children.
From much of the worlds perspective, the US track record is little different from that of Putin..
The Germans at least own their atrocities.
The Japanese do not . Which infuriates much of the rest of the Far East .
We just like to pretend all the countries we have bombed have no reason to dislike American policies . That somehow people throughout the world should be grateful for American generosity despite accidentally killing their people. Be it a few dozen or a few million.
Just first hand observations.
Southerners still rehash the Civil War to a far greater degree than Yankees. Primarily because the South suffered far more local destruction of their homes, farms and businesses. And the flagrant hypocrisy and violence of Reconstruction caused at least as much bitterness especially with southern women ( southern men in many cases had seen enough bloodshed and somewhat accepted their defeat ).
Same applies to Germans for example. As the victors we are more than willing move on. As our cities were not utterly destroyed nor did we suffer from serious food shortages for 2-3 years after the wars end. Will never forget meeting a young couple from Dresden. The couple went out of their way to show me their family album. At least half of the pictures showed Dresden burned to the ground and bodies reduced tio ashes. Naturally the horrible deaths to their descendants makes a far bigger impression to them than to us.
BTW they said I was the ONLY American they had ever met who had even the slightest knowledge about the horrors of the Dresden firebombing. They were glad to be out of East Germany and working in the US ; but amazed at the International cluelessness of the American people.
And that is the only point I am trying to make.
The rest of the world does not look at the destructive actions of US foreign policy as benignly as we blissfully think they should.
And for very natural reasons.
Wait till you see with what revisionist historians have done with the civil war period….
It makes one yearn for the normality of the 1990s
Your last point is at least partially true and is a principle as old as war itself.KaiBear said:sombear said:KaiBear said:sombear said:There are countless Germans who still say it was exaggerated and/or still make excuses.KaiBear said:sombear said:That's salty coming from the folks who denied knowledge of concentration camps and the exterminations of jews and gypsies . . .KaiBear said:No guilt.ATL Bear said:Outside of perhaps North Korea and some of the Middle Eastern countries, if they dislike American policies, it has nothing to do with bombings during wars that ended 50-75 years ago. Since that encompasses about 95%+ of the civilian casualties from your list, I'm not sure that's the "perspective" driver you believe it to be. This sounds more like revisionist American guilt.KaiBear said:ATL Bear said:The Japanese killed more civilians from 1937 to 1945 than the U.S. has in all of those conflicts combined. Germany needs no explanation and exceeds Japan. Are we holding them to this same "track record" perspective?KaiBear said:
Dozens of civilians throughout the Middle East are killed by US air strikes almost every year.
Thousands of innocent Iraqi civilians were killed by US air strikes during Desert Storm.
Thousands of Korean civilians, both North and South, were killed by US airs strikes during the Korean War.
Tens of thousands of innocent Vietnamese civilians were killed by US air strikes during the Vietnam War.
Hundreds of thousands of Japanese civilians were killed by US air strikes during World War II. Many burned alive or slowly eaten away by nuclear radiation.
Hundreds of thousands of German civilians were killed by US air strikes. Including a huge number of women and children.
From much of the worlds perspective, the US track record is little different from that of Putin..
The Germans at least own their atrocities.
The Japanese do not . Which infuriates much of the rest of the Far East .
We just like to pretend all the countries we have bombed have no reason to dislike American policies . That somehow people throughout the world should be grateful for American generosity despite accidentally killing their people. Be it a few dozen or a few million.
Just first hand observations.
Southerners still rehash the Civil War to a far greater degree than Yankees. Primarily because the South suffered far more local destruction of their homes, farms and businesses. And the flagrant hypocrisy and violence of Reconstruction caused at least as much bitterness especially with southern women ( southern men in many cases had seen enough bloodshed and somewhat accepted their defeat ).
Same applies to Germans for example. As the victors we are more than willing move on. As our cities were not utterly destroyed nor did we suffer from serious food shortages for 2-3 years after the wars end. Will never forget meeting a young couple from Dresden. The couple went out of their way to show me their family album. At least half of the pictures showed Dresden burned to the ground and bodies reduced tio ashes. Naturally the horrible deaths to their descendants makes a far bigger impression to them than to us.
BTW they said I was the ONLY American they had ever met who had even the slightest knowledge about the horrors of the Dresden firebombing. They were glad to be out of East Germany and working in the US ; but amazed at the International cluelessness of the American people.
And that is the only point I am trying to make.
The rest of the world does not look at the destructive actions of US foreign policy as benignly as we blissfully think they should.
And for very natural reasons.
I have never known a single German who wasn't ashamed of the Nazi death camps or the horrors of the Final Solution.
Whereas I have never met a single American under the age of 60 who was aware of the US fire bombing of Tokyo when the US incinerated 100,000 Japanese civilians in a single night .
Really, you know that many people who don't know we bombed Tokyo? That surprises me.
Have never met one of your 'countless' Germans .
Although I know some Americans who believe the death camps never existed .
Nope, have never met anyone under the age of 60 who was aware of the Tokyo fire bombing , or for that matter that Curtis LeMay was so pleased with the results he ordered several other Japanese cities to be likewise fire bombed .
Another basically hidden aspect of American WW2 atrocities was the estimated 50,000 Japanese girls and women reportedly raped by US occupation troops . In fairness those figures are from Japanese sources and are hotly disputed by the US government. Or the fact that the Japanese civilian population had to deal with near starvation food rationing for 2-3 years after the war ended.
As the Japanese merchant fleet had been completely sunk and as an island nation Japan did not have the resources to feed themselves . Apparently it eas a problem few American military or political planners had anticipated to any great degree.
Few in recent human history have committed the kinds of atrocities Imperial Japan did.
True to a point .
The Japanese Army employed low tech methods . Bayonets , decapitating prisoners , rape and summary executions.
The US used high tech methods ; atomic bombs , firebombs, and phosphorus artillery shells .
But the US won the war so we got to pick who were the war criminals .
But, I think more than that, most think our cause was just, and most have little sympathy for a country who picks a fight, fights ruthlessly, commits unfathomable atrocities, and refuses to surrender for months or even years after the end result was no longer in doubt.
Also, there is no strategic value to the atrocities Japan committed - Mass rape, torture, mutilations and beheading of POWs and innocent civilians.
I fully understand both sides of the Dresden and Nuke debates. But there's at least an argument that there was strategic value in both. What motivated the actual decision-makers before the bombings we may never know for sure. But Dresden no doubt had strategic significance. And with Nukes, yes, awful, and it was an excruciating decision. But we did it with our eyes wide open thinking it would end the war once and for all and save at least hundreds of thousands of American (and other) lives.
sombear said:KaiBear said:sombear said:KaiBear said:sombear said:There are countless Germans who still say it was exaggerated and/or still make excuses.KaiBear said:sombear said:That's salty coming from the folks who denied knowledge of concentration camps and the exterminations of jews and gypsies . . .KaiBear said:No guilt.ATL Bear said:Outside of perhaps North Korea and some of the Middle Eastern countries, if they dislike American policies, it has nothing to do with bombings during wars that ended 50-75 years ago. Since that encompasses about 95%+ of the civilian casualties from your list, I'm not sure that's the "perspective" driver you believe it to be. This sounds more like revisionist American guilt.KaiBear said:ATL Bear said:The Japanese killed more civilians from 1937 to 1945 than the U.S. has in all of those conflicts combined. Germany needs no explanation and exceeds Japan. Are we holding them to this same "track record" perspective?KaiBear said:
Dozens of civilians throughout the Middle East are killed by US air strikes almost every year.
Thousands of innocent Iraqi civilians were killed by US air strikes during Desert Storm.
Thousands of Korean civilians, both North and South, were killed by US airs strikes during the Korean War.
Tens of thousands of innocent Vietnamese civilians were killed by US air strikes during the Vietnam War.
Hundreds of thousands of Japanese civilians were killed by US air strikes during World War II. Many burned alive or slowly eaten away by nuclear radiation.
Hundreds of thousands of German civilians were killed by US air strikes. Including a huge number of women and children.
From much of the worlds perspective, the US track record is little different from that of Putin..
The Germans at least own their atrocities.
The Japanese do not . Which infuriates much of the rest of the Far East .
We just like to pretend all the countries we have bombed have no reason to dislike American policies . That somehow people throughout the world should be grateful for American generosity despite accidentally killing their people. Be it a few dozen or a few million.
Just first hand observations.
Southerners still rehash the Civil War to a far greater degree than Yankees. Primarily because the South suffered far more local destruction of their homes, farms and businesses. And the flagrant hypocrisy and violence of Reconstruction caused at least as much bitterness especially with southern women ( southern men in many cases had seen enough bloodshed and somewhat accepted their defeat ).
Same applies to Germans for example. As the victors we are more than willing move on. As our cities were not utterly destroyed nor did we suffer from serious food shortages for 2-3 years after the wars end. Will never forget meeting a young couple from Dresden. The couple went out of their way to show me their family album. At least half of the pictures showed Dresden burned to the ground and bodies reduced tio ashes. Naturally the horrible deaths to their descendants makes a far bigger impression to them than to us.
BTW they said I was the ONLY American they had ever met who had even the slightest knowledge about the horrors of the Dresden firebombing. They were glad to be out of East Germany and working in the US ; but amazed at the International cluelessness of the American people.
And that is the only point I am trying to make.
The rest of the world does not look at the destructive actions of US foreign policy as benignly as we blissfully think they should.
And for very natural reasons.
I have never known a single German who wasn't ashamed of the Nazi death camps or the horrors of the Final Solution.
Whereas I have never met a single American under the age of 60 who was aware of the US fire bombing of Tokyo when the US incinerated 100,000 Japanese civilians in a single night .
Really, you know that many people who don't know we bombed Tokyo? That surprises me.
Have never met one of your 'countless' Germans .
Although I know some Americans who believe the death camps never existed .
Nope, have never met anyone under the age of 60 who was aware of the Tokyo fire bombing , or for that matter that Curtis LeMay was so pleased with the results he ordered several other Japanese cities to be likewise fire bombed .
Another basically hidden aspect of American WW2 atrocities was the estimated 50,000 Japanese girls and women reportedly raped by US occupation troops . In fairness those figures are from Japanese sources and are hotly disputed by the US government. Or the fact that the Japanese civilian population had to deal with near starvation food rationing for 2-3 years after the war ended.
As the Japanese merchant fleet had been completely sunk and as an island nation Japan did not have the resources to feed themselves . Apparently it eas a problem few American military or political planners had anticipated to any great degree.
Few in recent human history have committed the kinds of atrocities Imperial Japan did.
True to a point .
The Japanese Army employed low tech methods . Bayonets , decapitating prisoners , rape and summary executions.
The US used high tech methods ; atomic bombs , firebombs, and phosphorus artillery shells .
But the US won the war so we got to pick who were the war criminals .
Also, there is no strategic value to the atrocities Japan committed - Mass rape, torture, mutilations and beheading of POWs and innocent civilians.
...
But there kind of was.
1. Intimidate and terrorize the Chinese (and other conquered peoples) into pacified and compliant slaves
2. Ethically cleanse the areas they intended to resettle with Japanese racial stock
[After the Japanese occupation (1931) and establishment of Manchukuo, huge crowds of Japanese agricultural pioneers settled in Manchuria. The first wave of the migration was a five-year trial emigration plan. Many had been young, land-poor farmers in Japan that were recruited by the Patriotic Youth Brigade to colonize new settlements in Manchukuo.[1] The Manchukuo government had seized great portions of these land through "price manipulation, coerced sales and forced evictions". ]
Japan was a small island (California size) with 71 million people in 1945
They planned to settle significant Japanese populations in strategic parts of China after the Axis victory in World War II
And use the rest of the Chinese population they allowed to live as long term serfs/slaves/servants
(Italy had similar plans for Libya and their African possessions)
ATL Bear said:You really need to learn more about what Japan did in China, Korea and the Philippines, and I don't mean to American soldiers.KaiBear said:sombear said:KaiBear said:sombear said:There are countless Germans who still say it was exaggerated and/or still make excuses.KaiBear said:sombear said:That's salty coming from the folks who denied knowledge of concentration camps and the exterminations of jews and gypsies . . .KaiBear said:No guilt.ATL Bear said:Outside of perhaps North Korea and some of the Middle Eastern countries, if they dislike American policies, it has nothing to do with bombings during wars that ended 50-75 years ago. Since that encompasses about 95%+ of the civilian casualties from your list, I'm not sure that's the "perspective" driver you believe it to be. This sounds more like revisionist American guilt.KaiBear said:ATL Bear said:The Japanese killed more civilians from 1937 to 1945 than the U.S. has in all of those conflicts combined. Germany needs no explanation and exceeds Japan. Are we holding them to this same "track record" perspective?KaiBear said:
Dozens of civilians throughout the Middle East are killed by US air strikes almost every year.
Thousands of innocent Iraqi civilians were killed by US air strikes during Desert Storm.
Thousands of Korean civilians, both North and South, were killed by US airs strikes during the Korean War.
Tens of thousands of innocent Vietnamese civilians were killed by US air strikes during the Vietnam War.
Hundreds of thousands of Japanese civilians were killed by US air strikes during World War II. Many burned alive or slowly eaten away by nuclear radiation.
Hundreds of thousands of German civilians were killed by US air strikes. Including a huge number of women and children.
From much of the worlds perspective, the US track record is little different from that of Putin..
The Germans at least own their atrocities.
The Japanese do not . Which infuriates much of the rest of the Far East .
We just like to pretend all the countries we have bombed have no reason to dislike American policies . That somehow people throughout the world should be grateful for American generosity despite accidentally killing their people. Be it a few dozen or a few million.
Just first hand observations.
Southerners still rehash the Civil War to a far greater degree than Yankees. Primarily because the South suffered far more local destruction of their homes, farms and businesses. And the flagrant hypocrisy and violence of Reconstruction caused at least as much bitterness especially with southern women ( southern men in many cases had seen enough bloodshed and somewhat accepted their defeat ).
Same applies to Germans for example. As the victors we are more than willing move on. As our cities were not utterly destroyed nor did we suffer from serious food shortages for 2-3 years after the wars end. Will never forget meeting a young couple from Dresden. The couple went out of their way to show me their family album. At least half of the pictures showed Dresden burned to the ground and bodies reduced tio ashes. Naturally the horrible deaths to their descendants makes a far bigger impression to them than to us.
BTW they said I was the ONLY American they had ever met who had even the slightest knowledge about the horrors of the Dresden firebombing. They were glad to be out of East Germany and working in the US ; but amazed at the International cluelessness of the American people.
And that is the only point I am trying to make.
The rest of the world does not look at the destructive actions of US foreign policy as benignly as we blissfully think they should.
And for very natural reasons.
I have never known a single German who wasn't ashamed of the Nazi death camps or the horrors of the Final Solution.
Whereas I have never met a single American under the age of 60 who was aware of the US fire bombing of Tokyo when the US incinerated 100,000 Japanese civilians in a single night .
Really, you know that many people who don't know we bombed Tokyo? That surprises me.
Have never met one of your 'countless' Germans .
Although I know some Americans who believe the death camps never existed .
Nope, have never met anyone under the age of 60 who was aware of the Tokyo fire bombing , or for that matter that Curtis LeMay was so pleased with the results he ordered several other Japanese cities to be likewise fire bombed .
Another basically hidden aspect of American WW2 atrocities was the estimated 50,000 Japanese girls and women reportedly raped by US occupation troops . In fairness those figures are from Japanese sources and are hotly disputed by the US government. Or the fact that the Japanese civilian population had to deal with near starvation food rationing for 2-3 years after the war ended.
As the Japanese merchant fleet had been completely sunk and as an island nation Japan did not have the resources to feed themselves . Apparently it eas a problem few American military or political planners had anticipated to any great degree.
Few in recent human history have committed the kinds of atrocities Imperial Japan did.
True to a point .
The Japanese Army employed low tech methods . Bayonets , decapitating prisoners , rape and summary executions.
The US used high tech methods ; atomic bombs , firebombs, and phosphorus artillery shells .
But the US won the war so we got to pick who were the war criminals .
Have read up on Japanese atrocities many times as the material is readily available.
Now try to find such similar studies on the US occupation of Japan.
The slaughter of almost 100,000 Okinawa civilians during our assault on that island.
The fire bombing of other Japanese cities ( after the Tokyo massacre) before the atomic bombs were dropped.
How Douglas MacArthur framed the Japanese general who kicked his ass in the Philippines, on bogus war crimes charges and HUNG the guy.
Now were we the 'good guys' in WW2 ……absolutely. Japan and Germany didn't give us many options but to fight.
But the winners always produce the vast majority of the history books. And book publishers want to make money.
And you don't make much money attempting to
sell books describing US atrocities to a US market .
You should see the Chinese history books. And if you think the Bataan Death March was bogus, I'm not sure what to tell you.KaiBear said:ATL Bear said:You really need to learn more about what Japan did in China, Korea and the Philippines, and I don't mean to American soldiers.KaiBear said:sombear said:KaiBear said:sombear said:There are countless Germans who still say it was exaggerated and/or still make excuses.KaiBear said:sombear said:That's salty coming from the folks who denied knowledge of concentration camps and the exterminations of jews and gypsies . . .KaiBear said:No guilt.ATL Bear said:Outside of perhaps North Korea and some of the Middle Eastern countries, if they dislike American policies, it has nothing to do with bombings during wars that ended 50-75 years ago. Since that encompasses about 95%+ of the civilian casualties from your list, I'm not sure that's the "perspective" driver you believe it to be. This sounds more like revisionist American guilt.KaiBear said:ATL Bear said:The Japanese killed more civilians from 1937 to 1945 than the U.S. has in all of those conflicts combined. Germany needs no explanation and exceeds Japan. Are we holding them to this same "track record" perspective?KaiBear said:
Dozens of civilians throughout the Middle East are killed by US air strikes almost every year.
Thousands of innocent Iraqi civilians were killed by US air strikes during Desert Storm.
Thousands of Korean civilians, both North and South, were killed by US airs strikes during the Korean War.
Tens of thousands of innocent Vietnamese civilians were killed by US air strikes during the Vietnam War.
Hundreds of thousands of Japanese civilians were killed by US air strikes during World War II. Many burned alive or slowly eaten away by nuclear radiation.
Hundreds of thousands of German civilians were killed by US air strikes. Including a huge number of women and children.
From much of the worlds perspective, the US track record is little different from that of Putin..
The Germans at least own their atrocities.
The Japanese do not . Which infuriates much of the rest of the Far East .
We just like to pretend all the countries we have bombed have no reason to dislike American policies . That somehow people throughout the world should be grateful for American generosity despite accidentally killing their people. Be it a few dozen or a few million.
Just first hand observations.
Southerners still rehash the Civil War to a far greater degree than Yankees. Primarily because the South suffered far more local destruction of their homes, farms and businesses. And the flagrant hypocrisy and violence of Reconstruction caused at least as much bitterness especially with southern women ( southern men in many cases had seen enough bloodshed and somewhat accepted their defeat ).
Same applies to Germans for example. As the victors we are more than willing move on. As our cities were not utterly destroyed nor did we suffer from serious food shortages for 2-3 years after the wars end. Will never forget meeting a young couple from Dresden. The couple went out of their way to show me their family album. At least half of the pictures showed Dresden burned to the ground and bodies reduced tio ashes. Naturally the horrible deaths to their descendants makes a far bigger impression to them than to us.
BTW they said I was the ONLY American they had ever met who had even the slightest knowledge about the horrors of the Dresden firebombing. They were glad to be out of East Germany and working in the US ; but amazed at the International cluelessness of the American people.
And that is the only point I am trying to make.
The rest of the world does not look at the destructive actions of US foreign policy as benignly as we blissfully think they should.
And for very natural reasons.
I have never known a single German who wasn't ashamed of the Nazi death camps or the horrors of the Final Solution.
Whereas I have never met a single American under the age of 60 who was aware of the US fire bombing of Tokyo when the US incinerated 100,000 Japanese civilians in a single night .
Really, you know that many people who don't know we bombed Tokyo? That surprises me.
Have never met one of your 'countless' Germans .
Although I know some Americans who believe the death camps never existed .
Nope, have never met anyone under the age of 60 who was aware of the Tokyo fire bombing , or for that matter that Curtis LeMay was so pleased with the results he ordered several other Japanese cities to be likewise fire bombed .
Another basically hidden aspect of American WW2 atrocities was the estimated 50,000 Japanese girls and women reportedly raped by US occupation troops . In fairness those figures are from Japanese sources and are hotly disputed by the US government. Or the fact that the Japanese civilian population had to deal with near starvation food rationing for 2-3 years after the war ended.
As the Japanese merchant fleet had been completely sunk and as an island nation Japan did not have the resources to feed themselves . Apparently it eas a problem few American military or political planners had anticipated to any great degree.
Few in recent human history have committed the kinds of atrocities Imperial Japan did.
True to a point .
The Japanese Army employed low tech methods . Bayonets , decapitating prisoners , rape and summary executions.
The US used high tech methods ; atomic bombs , firebombs, and phosphorus artillery shells .
But the US won the war so we got to pick who were the war criminals .
Have read up on Japanese atrocities many times as the material is readily available.
Now try to find such similar studies on the US occupation of Japan.
The slaughter of almost 100,000 Okinawa civilians during our assault on that island.
The fire bombing of other Japanese cities ( after the Tokyo massacre) before the atomic bombs were dropped.
How Douglas MacArthur framed the Japanese general who kicked his ass in the Philippines, on bogus war crimes charges and HUNG the guy.
Now were we the 'good guys' in WW2 ……absolutely. Japan and Germany didn't give us many options but to fight.
But the winners always produce the vast majority of the history books. And book publishers want to make money.
And you don't make much money attempting to
sell books describing US atrocities to a US market .
ATL Bear said:You should see the Chinese history books. And if you think the Bataan Death March was bogus, I'm not sure what to tell you.KaiBear said:ATL Bear said:You really need to learn more about what Japan did in China, Korea and the Philippines, and I don't mean to American soldiers.KaiBear said:sombear said:KaiBear said:sombear said:There are countless Germans who still say it was exaggerated and/or still make excuses.KaiBear said:sombear said:That's salty coming from the folks who denied knowledge of concentration camps and the exterminations of jews and gypsies . . .KaiBear said:No guilt.ATL Bear said:Outside of perhaps North Korea and some of the Middle Eastern countries, if they dislike American policies, it has nothing to do with bombings during wars that ended 50-75 years ago. Since that encompasses about 95%+ of the civilian casualties from your list, I'm not sure that's the "perspective" driver you believe it to be. This sounds more like revisionist American guilt.KaiBear said:ATL Bear said:The Japanese killed more civilians from 1937 to 1945 than the U.S. has in all of those conflicts combined. Germany needs no explanation and exceeds Japan. Are we holding them to this same "track record" perspective?KaiBear said:
Dozens of civilians throughout the Middle East are killed by US air strikes almost every year.
Thousands of innocent Iraqi civilians were killed by US air strikes during Desert Storm.
Thousands of Korean civilians, both North and South, were killed by US airs strikes during the Korean War.
Tens of thousands of innocent Vietnamese civilians were killed by US air strikes during the Vietnam War.
Hundreds of thousands of Japanese civilians were killed by US air strikes during World War II. Many burned alive or slowly eaten away by nuclear radiation.
Hundreds of thousands of German civilians were killed by US air strikes. Including a huge number of women and children.
From much of the worlds perspective, the US track record is little different from that of Putin..
The Germans at least own their atrocities.
The Japanese do not . Which infuriates much of the rest of the Far East .
We just like to pretend all the countries we have bombed have no reason to dislike American policies . That somehow people throughout the world should be grateful for American generosity despite accidentally killing their people. Be it a few dozen or a few million.
Just first hand observations.
Southerners still rehash the Civil War to a far greater degree than Yankees. Primarily because the South suffered far more local destruction of their homes, farms and businesses. And the flagrant hypocrisy and violence of Reconstruction caused at least as much bitterness especially with southern women ( southern men in many cases had seen enough bloodshed and somewhat accepted their defeat ).
Same applies to Germans for example. As the victors we are more than willing move on. As our cities were not utterly destroyed nor did we suffer from serious food shortages for 2-3 years after the wars end. Will never forget meeting a young couple from Dresden. The couple went out of their way to show me their family album. At least half of the pictures showed Dresden burned to the ground and bodies reduced tio ashes. Naturally the horrible deaths to their descendants makes a far bigger impression to them than to us.
BTW they said I was the ONLY American they had ever met who had even the slightest knowledge about the horrors of the Dresden firebombing. They were glad to be out of East Germany and working in the US ; but amazed at the International cluelessness of the American people.
And that is the only point I am trying to make.
The rest of the world does not look at the destructive actions of US foreign policy as benignly as we blissfully think they should.
And for very natural reasons.
I have never known a single German who wasn't ashamed of the Nazi death camps or the horrors of the Final Solution.
Whereas I have never met a single American under the age of 60 who was aware of the US fire bombing of Tokyo when the US incinerated 100,000 Japanese civilians in a single night .
Really, you know that many people who don't know we bombed Tokyo? That surprises me.
Have never met one of your 'countless' Germans .
Although I know some Americans who believe the death camps never existed .
Nope, have never met anyone under the age of 60 who was aware of the Tokyo fire bombing , or for that matter that Curtis LeMay was so pleased with the results he ordered several other Japanese cities to be likewise fire bombed .
Another basically hidden aspect of American WW2 atrocities was the estimated 50,000 Japanese girls and women reportedly raped by US occupation troops . In fairness those figures are from Japanese sources and are hotly disputed by the US government. Or the fact that the Japanese civilian population had to deal with near starvation food rationing for 2-3 years after the war ended.
As the Japanese merchant fleet had been completely sunk and as an island nation Japan did not have the resources to feed themselves . Apparently it eas a problem few American military or political planners had anticipated to any great degree.
Few in recent human history have committed the kinds of atrocities Imperial Japan did.
True to a point .
The Japanese Army employed low tech methods . Bayonets , decapitating prisoners , rape and summary executions.
The US used high tech methods ; atomic bombs , firebombs, and phosphorus artillery shells .
But the US won the war so we got to pick who were the war criminals .
Have read up on Japanese atrocities many times as the material is readily available.
Now try to find such similar studies on the US occupation of Japan.
The slaughter of almost 100,000 Okinawa civilians during our assault on that island.
The fire bombing of other Japanese cities ( after the Tokyo massacre) before the atomic bombs were dropped.
How Douglas MacArthur framed the Japanese general who kicked his ass in the Philippines, on bogus war crimes charges and HUNG the guy.
Now were we the 'good guys' in WW2 ……absolutely. Japan and Germany didn't give us many options but to fight.
But the winners always produce the vast majority of the history books. And book publishers want to make money.
And you don't make much money attempting to
sell books describing US atrocities to a US market .
The Bataan Death March was not blamed on General
Yamash ita . Otherwise known as the Tiger of Malaya . He was tried as a 'war criminal ' for the Japanese atrocities in Manila in 1945. Even though he was not in command of the Japanese troops in Manila .
His real 'crime' was embarrassing MacArthur' by holding on to much of Luzon until wars end even his troops were underfed and greatly outnumbered . Several US attorneys at the time said his execution was a huge miscarriage of American justice.
I wouldn't call that an ass-kicking. Japan suffered massive losses, and the campaign only took a matter of months including liberating Manila.KaiBear said:ATL Bear said:You should see the Chinese history books. And if you think the Bataan Death March was bogus, I'm not sure what to tell you.KaiBear said:ATL Bear said:You really need to learn more about what Japan did in China, Korea and the Philippines, and I don't mean to American soldiers.KaiBear said:sombear said:KaiBear said:sombear said:There are countless Germans who still say it was exaggerated and/or still make excuses.KaiBear said:sombear said:That's salty coming from the folks who denied knowledge of concentration camps and the exterminations of jews and gypsies . . .KaiBear said:No guilt.ATL Bear said:Outside of perhaps North Korea and some of the Middle Eastern countries, if they dislike American policies, it has nothing to do with bombings during wars that ended 50-75 years ago. Since that encompasses about 95%+ of the civilian casualties from your list, I'm not sure that's the "perspective" driver you believe it to be. This sounds more like revisionist American guilt.KaiBear said:ATL Bear said:The Japanese killed more civilians from 1937 to 1945 than the U.S. has in all of those conflicts combined. Germany needs no explanation and exceeds Japan. Are we holding them to this same "track record" perspective?KaiBear said:
Dozens of civilians throughout the Middle East are killed by US air strikes almost every year.
Thousands of innocent Iraqi civilians were killed by US air strikes during Desert Storm.
Thousands of Korean civilians, both North and South, were killed by US airs strikes during the Korean War.
Tens of thousands of innocent Vietnamese civilians were killed by US air strikes during the Vietnam War.
Hundreds of thousands of Japanese civilians were killed by US air strikes during World War II. Many burned alive or slowly eaten away by nuclear radiation.
Hundreds of thousands of German civilians were killed by US air strikes. Including a huge number of women and children.
From much of the worlds perspective, the US track record is little different from that of Putin..
The Germans at least own their atrocities.
The Japanese do not . Which infuriates much of the rest of the Far East .
We just like to pretend all the countries we have bombed have no reason to dislike American policies . That somehow people throughout the world should be grateful for American generosity despite accidentally killing their people. Be it a few dozen or a few million.
Just first hand observations.
Southerners still rehash the Civil War to a far greater degree than Yankees. Primarily because the South suffered far more local destruction of their homes, farms and businesses. And the flagrant hypocrisy and violence of Reconstruction caused at least as much bitterness especially with southern women ( southern men in many cases had seen enough bloodshed and somewhat accepted their defeat ).
Same applies to Germans for example. As the victors we are more than willing move on. As our cities were not utterly destroyed nor did we suffer from serious food shortages for 2-3 years after the wars end. Will never forget meeting a young couple from Dresden. The couple went out of their way to show me their family album. At least half of the pictures showed Dresden burned to the ground and bodies reduced tio ashes. Naturally the horrible deaths to their descendants makes a far bigger impression to them than to us.
BTW they said I was the ONLY American they had ever met who had even the slightest knowledge about the horrors of the Dresden firebombing. They were glad to be out of East Germany and working in the US ; but amazed at the International cluelessness of the American people.
And that is the only point I am trying to make.
The rest of the world does not look at the destructive actions of US foreign policy as benignly as we blissfully think they should.
And for very natural reasons.
I have never known a single German who wasn't ashamed of the Nazi death camps or the horrors of the Final Solution.
Whereas I have never met a single American under the age of 60 who was aware of the US fire bombing of Tokyo when the US incinerated 100,000 Japanese civilians in a single night .
Really, you know that many people who don't know we bombed Tokyo? That surprises me.
Have never met one of your 'countless' Germans .
Although I know some Americans who believe the death camps never existed .
Nope, have never met anyone under the age of 60 who was aware of the Tokyo fire bombing , or for that matter that Curtis LeMay was so pleased with the results he ordered several other Japanese cities to be likewise fire bombed .
Another basically hidden aspect of American WW2 atrocities was the estimated 50,000 Japanese girls and women reportedly raped by US occupation troops . In fairness those figures are from Japanese sources and are hotly disputed by the US government. Or the fact that the Japanese civilian population had to deal with near starvation food rationing for 2-3 years after the war ended.
As the Japanese merchant fleet had been completely sunk and as an island nation Japan did not have the resources to feed themselves . Apparently it eas a problem few American military or political planners had anticipated to any great degree.
Few in recent human history have committed the kinds of atrocities Imperial Japan did.
True to a point .
The Japanese Army employed low tech methods . Bayonets , decapitating prisoners , rape and summary executions.
The US used high tech methods ; atomic bombs , firebombs, and phosphorus artillery shells .
But the US won the war so we got to pick who were the war criminals .
Have read up on Japanese atrocities many times as the material is readily available.
Now try to find such similar studies on the US occupation of Japan.
The slaughter of almost 100,000 Okinawa civilians during our assault on that island.
The fire bombing of other Japanese cities ( after the Tokyo massacre) before the atomic bombs were dropped.
How Douglas MacArthur framed the Japanese general who kicked his ass in the Philippines, on bogus war crimes charges and HUNG the guy.
Now were we the 'good guys' in WW2 ……absolutely. Japan and Germany didn't give us many options but to fight.
But the winners always produce the vast majority of the history books. And book publishers want to make money.
And you don't make much money attempting to
sell books describing US atrocities to a US market .
The Bataan Death March was not blamed on General
Yamash ita . Otherwise known as the Tiger of Malaya . He was tried as a 'war criminal ' for the Japanese atrocities in Manila in 1945. Even though he was not in command of the Japanese troops in Manila .
His real 'crime' was embarrassing MacArthur' by holding on to much of Luzon until wars end even his troops were underfed and greatly outnumbered . Several US attorneys at the time said his execution was a huge miscarriage of American justice.
I thought you were referring to Gen. Homma's besting of MacArthur in the original invasion, which is considered one of the worst American military defeats in history, and resulted in the Bataan Death March.
But Yama****a had a lot of blood on his hands even if you excused him from the Manila Massacre. The Japanese occupiers were just brutal on the Filipino people and POWs.
ATL Bear said:I wouldn't call that an ass-kicking. Japan suffered massive losses, and the campaign only took a matter of months including liberating Manila.KaiBear said:ATL Bear said:You should see the Chinese history books. And if you think the Bataan Death March was bogus, I'm not sure what to tell you.KaiBear said:ATL Bear said:You really need to learn more about what Japan did in China, Korea and the Philippines, and I don't mean to American soldiers.KaiBear said:sombear said:KaiBear said:sombear said:There are countless Germans who still say it was exaggerated and/or still make excuses.KaiBear said:sombear said:That's salty coming from the folks who denied knowledge of concentration camps and the exterminations of jews and gypsies . . .KaiBear said:No guilt.ATL Bear said:Outside of perhaps North Korea and some of the Middle Eastern countries, if they dislike American policies, it has nothing to do with bombings during wars that ended 50-75 years ago. Since that encompasses about 95%+ of the civilian casualties from your list, I'm not sure that's the "perspective" driver you believe it to be. This sounds more like revisionist American guilt.KaiBear said:ATL Bear said:The Japanese killed more civilians from 1937 to 1945 than the U.S. has in all of those conflicts combined. Germany needs no explanation and exceeds Japan. Are we holding them to this same "track record" perspective?KaiBear said:
Dozens of civilians throughout the Middle East are killed by US air strikes almost every year.
Thousands of innocent Iraqi civilians were killed by US air strikes during Desert Storm.
Thousands of Korean civilians, both North and South, were killed by US airs strikes during the Korean War.
Tens of thousands of innocent Vietnamese civilians were killed by US air strikes during the Vietnam War.
Hundreds of thousands of Japanese civilians were killed by US air strikes during World War II. Many burned alive or slowly eaten away by nuclear radiation.
Hundreds of thousands of German civilians were killed by US air strikes. Including a huge number of women and children.
From much of the worlds perspective, the US track record is little different from that of Putin..
The Germans at least own their atrocities.
The Japanese do not . Which infuriates much of the rest of the Far East .
We just like to pretend all the countries we have bombed have no reason to dislike American policies . That somehow people throughout the world should be grateful for American generosity despite accidentally killing their people. Be it a few dozen or a few million.
Just first hand observations.
Southerners still rehash the Civil War to a far greater degree than Yankees. Primarily because the South suffered far more local destruction of their homes, farms and businesses. And the flagrant hypocrisy and violence of Reconstruction caused at least as much bitterness especially with southern women ( southern men in many cases had seen enough bloodshed and somewhat accepted their defeat ).
Same applies to Germans for example. As the victors we are more than willing move on. As our cities were not utterly destroyed nor did we suffer from serious food shortages for 2-3 years after the wars end. Will never forget meeting a young couple from Dresden. The couple went out of their way to show me their family album. At least half of the pictures showed Dresden burned to the ground and bodies reduced tio ashes. Naturally the horrible deaths to their descendants makes a far bigger impression to them than to us.
BTW they said I was the ONLY American they had ever met who had even the slightest knowledge about the horrors of the Dresden firebombing. They were glad to be out of East Germany and working in the US ; but amazed at the International cluelessness of the American people.
And that is the only point I am trying to make.
The rest of the world does not look at the destructive actions of US foreign policy as benignly as we blissfully think they should.
And for very natural reasons.
I have never known a single German who wasn't ashamed of the Nazi death camps or the horrors of the Final Solution.
Whereas I have never met a single American under the age of 60 who was aware of the US fire bombing of Tokyo when the US incinerated 100,000 Japanese civilians in a single night .
Really, you know that many people who don't know we bombed Tokyo? That surprises me.
Have never met one of your 'countless' Germans .
Although I know some Americans who believe the death camps never existed .
Nope, have never met anyone under the age of 60 who was aware of the Tokyo fire bombing , or for that matter that Curtis LeMay was so pleased with the results he ordered several other Japanese cities to be likewise fire bombed .
Another basically hidden aspect of American WW2 atrocities was the estimated 50,000 Japanese girls and women reportedly raped by US occupation troops . In fairness those figures are from Japanese sources and are hotly disputed by the US government. Or the fact that the Japanese civilian population had to deal with near starvation food rationing for 2-3 years after the war ended.
As the Japanese merchant fleet had been completely sunk and as an island nation Japan did not have the resources to feed themselves . Apparently it eas a problem few American military or political planners had anticipated to any great degree.
Few in recent human history have committed the kinds of atrocities Imperial Japan did.
True to a point .
The Japanese Army employed low tech methods . Bayonets , decapitating prisoners , rape and summary executions.
The US used high tech methods ; atomic bombs , firebombs, and phosphorus artillery shells .
But the US won the war so we got to pick who were the war criminals .
Have read up on Japanese atrocities many times as the material is readily available.
Now try to find such similar studies on the US occupation of Japan.
The slaughter of almost 100,000 Okinawa civilians during our assault on that island.
The fire bombing of other Japanese cities ( after the Tokyo massacre) before the atomic bombs were dropped.
How Douglas MacArthur framed the Japanese general who kicked his ass in the Philippines, on bogus war crimes charges and HUNG the guy.
Now were we the 'good guys' in WW2 ……absolutely. Japan and Germany didn't give us many options but to fight.
But the winners always produce the vast majority of the history books. And book publishers want to make money.
And you don't make much money attempting to
sell books describing US atrocities to a US market .
The Bataan Death March was not blamed on General
Yamash ita . Otherwise known as the Tiger of Malaya . He was tried as a 'war criminal ' for the Japanese atrocities in Manila in 1945. Even though he was not in command of the Japanese troops in Manila .
His real 'crime' was embarrassing MacArthur' by holding on to much of Luzon until wars end even his troops were underfed and greatly outnumbered . Several US attorneys at the time said his execution was a huge miscarriage of American justice.
I thought you were referring to Gen. Homma's besting of MacArthur in the original invasion, which is considered one of the worst American military defeats in history, and resulted in the Bataan Death March.
But Yama****a had a lot of blood on his hands even if you excused him from the Manila Massacre. The Japanese occupiers were just brutal on the Filipino people and POWs.
Indeed the Japanese were brutal. Possibly more brutal than the Germans and equal to Russian brutality.
Easy to find the literature describing their butcheries.
But the Americans had a massive amount of blood on their hands as well . Much harder to find those details. It's out there, but it takes effort to dig it up.
Including the killing of thousands of British , Dutch and American prisoners of war as they were shipped from the Philippines to the Japanese home islands .
Through neutral channels the Japanese government announced their intentions to move these allied prisoners.
The US government agreed to give these ships safe passage. The US Navy agreed to give these Japanese ships clear sailing.
But somehow , someway US submarines sank several of these prison ships anyway .
And an estimated 8 thousand allied POW's drowned or were burned alive .
The moral of all this is that World Wars are bad, and we shouldn't let midwits like Victoria Nuland and Anthony Blinken blunder their way into a third one.
Realitybites said:
The moral of all this is that World Wars are bad, and we shouldn't let midwits like Victoria Nuland and Anthony Blinken blunder their way into a third one.
Exactly
And in an age of hydrogen bombs past butcheries will appear to be minuscule in comparison.
And our 3000 hydrogen bombs are nominally controlled by the oldest president in US history.
A president who exhibits clear signs of advancing dementia.
No worries though.
After all the old fella ' paid off my student loans ' .