Trump Verdict in Civil Fraud Cause

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FLBear5630
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In reply to BusyTarpDuster2017 • 8:33a, 2/22/24
BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
FLBear5630 said:
ATL Bear said:
Redbrickbear said:
Mar a Lago might be worth what Trump claims it is if he hadn't decided to avoid property taxes by making it a conservation and preservation site. Can't sell it as a residence, can't sell it as a development property, and heavy restrictions on the renovations allowed. Trump created the $18 million valuation through the property tax avoidance moves.
Trump keeps playing all sides and expecting everyone to just ignore it. For tax purposes he made it conservation/preservation site and a social club, which in FL has massive restrictions. He did that it when he was in financial distress, funny since running for President he is flush. The issue with what Trump did is that he listed it as an unrestricted residential plot, which could be sold and redeveloped. It clearly is not, that is the basis of the fraud case for Mar a Lago. He did not value it as a social club, which is how Palm Beach County values it for tax purposes.

He has multiple others that are all over the place, some he just outright lied about the size.

But suppose Trump had defaulted on the loan, and the banks seize the property. Would the banks be required to keep it's designation as a conservation and preservation site, or can they change it and sell it as a residence at fair market value? If that's the case, then for the purpose of collateral, it would be fair for Trump to list it as such, because that would be it's potential value for the bank.

Anyone here know whether this is the case or not with seized property? Please enlighten us.
No, it is a Conservation and Preservation, as well as has a National Historic designation.

Trump bought it for 10 million because it was in disrepair. He upgraded it. When having money issues he tried to break it up and build mansions, but Palm Beach County said no. They allowed him to make it a Social Club (Limited to 500 members, 500k buy in and 20k a year) and taxed it as such so Trump could cover maintenance.

True it is unique piece of property, as is the other Mansion that were built in that timeframe. The Breakers (Rockefellers) is a resort now for example. Mar a Lago was built by EF Hutton, it is in that niche. It is like the Vatican, they are asset rich but Cash poor. The Vatican can get billions, but they really can't. Trump calls it the Mona Lisa of properties, the Mona Lisa will never be sold. Other properties, smaller, went for about 70 million. .

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4th and Inches
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In reply to Osodecentx • 9:31a, 2/22/24
Osodecentx said:
4th and Inches said:
Osodecentx said:
4th and Inches said:
Osodecentx said:
Doc Holliday said:
HuMcK said:
Because they did a due-diligence search when the Trump case started (so did Mike Pence, and he also found some docs) and voluntarily disclosured what they found. Contrast that with Trump ignoring subpoenaes, deliberately hiding docs from authorities when they searched, and ordering his subordinates to destroy evidence.

The difference is pretty obvious to see for anyone eithout their head up Trump's ass.
Trump had power to declassify.

Biden never did.
Biden does now. Trump doesn't
he can pardon himself too.. his alledged crimes happened before he was president. Trumps alledgely happened after he was president.. see the difference or is the angle too obtuse?
I think POTUS can pardon himself, the language in Constitution seems to be absolute, BUT there is a line of legal reasoning out there that disputes that.

1)Should POTUS have absolute immunity from any prosecution no matter what bad acts he commits? If so, he wouldn't need to pardon himself.
2)Do you believe a POTUS can declassify documents by mere thought? 3)If so, then Biden can do the same thing.
1- overly vague- rephrase
2-no
3-no, senator Biden and VP Biden cant declassify sh.. He did the alledged crime before he was president. He can only pardon himself as president for his prior crimes.
1. I'm trying to reconcile Trump's plea for POTUS absolute immunity with the self pardon possibility. This is a hypothetical because POTUS does not have immunity.
Trump claims POTUS should have absolute immunity from any criminal liability for any acts POTUS may commit. You claim that POTUS can pardon himself. If POTUS is immune for any bad acts, the need for a pardon goes away.

(Absolute immunity? No.. immunity from process crimes? Maybe.. other higher level elected civil servants tend to get leniency unless malicious intent is shown.)


2. I agree with you, but that isn't Trump's position.

(I do know there was a notebook the meadows turned in around the last day of Trumps presidency that should have declassified stuff but that never happened)

3. Assuming Biden can only pardon himself as "as president" (while he is president?), then Biden's alleged crimes were committed before he was president (senator an VP) and he could pardon himself. In the alternative, if Biden is indicted for classified documents he took as a senator an VP, why couldn't he, like Trump, pardon himself?

(He can..)

You tell me that Trump, during his presidency, could pardon himself for crimes committed before he was president. On the question of presidential pardons, how do you distinguish the crimes Biden may have committed from the crimes Trump may have committed?
Trumps were after he had the power to pardon, Biden has the current power.

Trumps are cloudy as its basically a records fight under the PRA.

Bidens was having records he had absolutely no possible arguement in favor of having them as VP or senator.

The final conclusion is GAS sucks at their job as all the elected politicians keep leaving with classified documents
“The Internet is just a world passing around notes in a classroom.”

Jon Stewart
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Osodecentx
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In reply to 4th and Inches • 10:03a, 2/22/24
4th and Inches said:
Osodecentx said:
4th and Inches said:
Osodecentx said:
4th and Inches said:
Osodecentx said:
Doc Holliday said:
HuMcK said:
Because they did a due-diligence search when the Trump case started (so did Mike Pence, and he also found some docs) and voluntarily disclosured what they found. Contrast that with Trump ignoring subpoenaes, deliberately hiding docs from authorities when they searched, and ordering his subordinates to destroy evidence.

The difference is pretty obvious to see for anyone eithout their head up Trump's ass.
Trump had power to declassify.

Biden never did.
Biden does now. Trump doesn't
he can pardon himself too.. his alledged crimes happened before he was president. Trumps alledgely happened after he was president.. see the difference or is the angle too obtuse?
I think POTUS can pardon himself, the language in Constitution seems to be absolute, BUT there is a line of legal reasoning out there that disputes that.

1)Should POTUS have absolute immunity from any prosecution no matter what bad acts he commits? If so, he wouldn't need to pardon himself.
2)Do you believe a POTUS can declassify documents by mere thought? 3)If so, then Biden can do the same thing.
1- overly vague- rephrase
2-no
3-no, senator Biden and VP Biden cant declassify sh.. He did the alledged crime before he was president. He can only pardon himself as president for his prior crimes.
1. I'm trying to reconcile Trump's plea for POTUS absolute immunity with the self pardon possibility. This is a hypothetical because POTUS does not have immunity.
Trump claims POTUS should have absolute immunity from any criminal liability for any acts POTUS may commit. You claim that POTUS can pardon himself. If POTUS is immune for any bad acts, the need for a pardon goes away.

(Absolute immunity? No.. immunity from process crimes? Maybe.. other higher level elected civil servants tend to get leniency unless malicious intent is shown.)


2. I agree with you, but that isn't Trump's position.

(I do know there was a notebook the meadows turned in around the last day of Trumps presidency that should have declassified stuff but that never happened)

3. Assuming Biden can only pardon himself as "as president" (while he is president?), then Biden's alleged crimes were committed before he was president (senator an VP) and he could pardon himself. In the alternative, if Biden is indicted for classified documents he took as a senator an VP, why couldn't he, like Trump, pardon himself?

(He can..)

You tell me that Trump, during his presidency, could pardon himself for crimes committed before he was president. On the question of presidential pardons, how do you distinguish the crimes Biden may have committed from the crimes Trump may have committed?
Trumps were after he had the power to pardon, Biden has the current power.

Trumps are cloudy as its basically a records fight under the PRA.

Bidens was having records he had absolutely no possible arguement in favor of having them as VP or senator.

The final conclusion is GAS sucks at their job as all the elected politicians keep leaving with classified documents


I agree that Biden, as senator & VP, had no right to take docs. If Biden, as POTUS, declassifies documents in question, as it is in his power to do, don't the offenses go away?
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Wangchung
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In reply to Osodecentx • 10:41a, 2/22/24
Osodecentx said:
4th and Inches said:
Osodecentx said:
4th and Inches said:
Osodecentx said:
4th and Inches said:
Osodecentx said:
Doc Holliday said:
HuMcK said:
Because they did a due-diligence search when the Trump case started (so did Mike Pence, and he also found some docs) and voluntarily disclosured what they found. Contrast that with Trump ignoring subpoenaes, deliberately hiding docs from authorities when they searched, and ordering his subordinates to destroy evidence.

The difference is pretty obvious to see for anyone eithout their head up Trump's ass.
Trump had power to declassify.

Biden never did.
Biden does now. Trump doesn't
he can pardon himself too.. his alledged crimes happened before he was president. Trumps alledgely happened after he was president.. see the difference or is the angle too obtuse?
I think POTUS can pardon himself, the language in Constitution seems to be absolute, BUT there is a line of legal reasoning out there that disputes that.

1)Should POTUS have absolute immunity from any prosecution no matter what bad acts he commits? If so, he wouldn't need to pardon himself.
2)Do you believe a POTUS can declassify documents by mere thought? 3)If so, then Biden can do the same thing.
1- overly vague- rephrase
2-no
3-no, senator Biden and VP Biden cant declassify sh.. He did the alledged crime before he was president. He can only pardon himself as president for his prior crimes.
1. I'm trying to reconcile Trump's plea for POTUS absolute immunity with the self pardon possibility. This is a hypothetical because POTUS does not have immunity.
Trump claims POTUS should have absolute immunity from any criminal liability for any acts POTUS may commit. You claim that POTUS can pardon himself. If POTUS is immune for any bad acts, the need for a pardon goes away.

(Absolute immunity? No.. immunity from process crimes? Maybe.. other higher level elected civil servants tend to get leniency unless malicious intent is shown.)


2. I agree with you, but that isn't Trump's position.

(I do know there was a notebook the meadows turned in around the last day of Trumps presidency that should have declassified stuff but that never happened)

3. Assuming Biden can only pardon himself as "as president" (while he is president?), then Biden's alleged crimes were committed before he was president (senator an VP) and he could pardon himself. In the alternative, if Biden is indicted for classified documents he took as a senator an VP, why couldn't he, like Trump, pardon himself?

(He can..)

You tell me that Trump, during his presidency, could pardon himself for crimes committed before he was president. On the question of presidential pardons, how do you distinguish the crimes Biden may have committed from the crimes Trump may have committed?
Trumps were after he had the power to pardon, Biden has the current power.

Trumps are cloudy as its basically a records fight under the PRA.

Bidens was having records he had absolutely no possible arguement in favor of having them as VP or senator.

The final conclusion is GAS sucks at their job as all the elected politicians keep leaving with classified documents


I agree that Biden, as senator & VP, had no right to take docs. If Biden, as POTUS, declassifies documents in question, as it is in his power to do, don't the offenses go away?
If you speed through town but slow down to the speed limit afterwards did you break the law?
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FLBear5630
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In reply to Wangchung • 11:36a, 2/22/24
Wangchung said:
Osodecentx said:
4th and Inches said:
Osodecentx said:
4th and Inches said:
Osodecentx said:
4th and Inches said:
Osodecentx said:
Doc Holliday said:
HuMcK said:
Because they did a due-diligence search when the Trump case started (so did Mike Pence, and he also found some docs) and voluntarily disclosured what they found. Contrast that with Trump ignoring subpoenaes, deliberately hiding docs from authorities when they searched, and ordering his subordinates to destroy evidence.

The difference is pretty obvious to see for anyone eithout their head up Trump's ass.
Trump had power to declassify.

Biden never did.
Biden does now. Trump doesn't
he can pardon himself too.. his alledged crimes happened before he was president. Trumps alledgely happened after he was president.. see the difference or is the angle too obtuse?
I think POTUS can pardon himself, the language in Constitution seems to be absolute, BUT there is a line of legal reasoning out there that disputes that.

1)Should POTUS have absolute immunity from any prosecution no matter what bad acts he commits? If so, he wouldn't need to pardon himself.
2)Do you believe a POTUS can declassify documents by mere thought? 3)If so, then Biden can do the same thing.
1- overly vague- rephrase
2-no
3-no, senator Biden and VP Biden cant declassify sh.. He did the alledged crime before he was president. He can only pardon himself as president for his prior crimes.
1. I'm trying to reconcile Trump's plea for POTUS absolute immunity with the self pardon possibility. This is a hypothetical because POTUS does not have immunity.
Trump claims POTUS should have absolute immunity from any criminal liability for any acts POTUS may commit. You claim that POTUS can pardon himself. If POTUS is immune for any bad acts, the need for a pardon goes away.

(Absolute immunity? No.. immunity from process crimes? Maybe.. other higher level elected civil servants tend to get leniency unless malicious intent is shown.)


2. I agree with you, but that isn't Trump's position.

(I do know there was a notebook the meadows turned in around the last day of Trumps presidency that should have declassified stuff but that never happened)

3. Assuming Biden can only pardon himself as "as president" (while he is president?), then Biden's alleged crimes were committed before he was president (senator an VP) and he could pardon himself. In the alternative, if Biden is indicted for classified documents he took as a senator an VP, why couldn't he, like Trump, pardon himself?

(He can..)

You tell me that Trump, during his presidency, could pardon himself for crimes committed before he was president. On the question of presidential pardons, how do you distinguish the crimes Biden may have committed from the crimes Trump may have committed?
Trumps were after he had the power to pardon, Biden has the current power.

Trumps are cloudy as its basically a records fight under the PRA.

Bidens was having records he had absolutely no possible arguement in favor of having them as VP or senator.

The final conclusion is GAS sucks at their job as all the elected politicians keep leaving with classified documents


I agree that Biden, as senator & VP, had no right to take docs. If Biden, as POTUS, declassifies documents in question, as it is in his power to do, don't the offenses go away?
If you speed through town but slow down to the speed limit afterwards did you break the law?
Depends on if you get caught. Then if your brother-in-law judge does more than a suspended sentence. Trump doesn't have a brother-in-law that likes him.
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Wangchung
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In reply to FLBear5630 • 11:39a, 2/22/24
FLBear5630 said:
Wangchung said:
Osodecentx said:
4th and Inches said:
Osodecentx said:
4th and Inches said:
Osodecentx said:
4th and Inches said:
Osodecentx said:
Doc Holliday said:
HuMcK said:
Because they did a due-diligence search when the Trump case started (so did Mike Pence, and he also found some docs) and voluntarily disclosured what they found. Contrast that with Trump ignoring subpoenaes, deliberately hiding docs from authorities when they searched, and ordering his subordinates to destroy evidence.

The difference is pretty obvious to see for anyone eithout their head up Trump's ass.
Trump had power to declassify.

Biden never did.
Biden does now. Trump doesn't
he can pardon himself too.. his alledged crimes happened before he was president. Trumps alledgely happened after he was president.. see the difference or is the angle too obtuse?
I think POTUS can pardon himself, the language in Constitution seems to be absolute, BUT there is a line of legal reasoning out there that disputes that.

1)Should POTUS have absolute immunity from any prosecution no matter what bad acts he commits? If so, he wouldn't need to pardon himself.
2)Do you believe a POTUS can declassify documents by mere thought? 3)If so, then Biden can do the same thing.
1- overly vague- rephrase
2-no
3-no, senator Biden and VP Biden cant declassify sh.. He did the alledged crime before he was president. He can only pardon himself as president for his prior crimes.
1. I'm trying to reconcile Trump's plea for POTUS absolute immunity with the self pardon possibility. This is a hypothetical because POTUS does not have immunity.
Trump claims POTUS should have absolute immunity from any criminal liability for any acts POTUS may commit. You claim that POTUS can pardon himself. If POTUS is immune for any bad acts, the need for a pardon goes away.

(Absolute immunity? No.. immunity from process crimes? Maybe.. other higher level elected civil servants tend to get leniency unless malicious intent is shown.)


2. I agree with you, but that isn't Trump's position.

(I do know there was a notebook the meadows turned in around the last day of Trumps presidency that should have declassified stuff but that never happened)

3. Assuming Biden can only pardon himself as "as president" (while he is president?), then Biden's alleged crimes were committed before he was president (senator an VP) and he could pardon himself. In the alternative, if Biden is indicted for classified documents he took as a senator an VP, why couldn't he, like Trump, pardon himself?

(He can..)

You tell me that Trump, during his presidency, could pardon himself for crimes committed before he was president. On the question of presidential pardons, how do you distinguish the crimes Biden may have committed from the crimes Trump may have committed?
Trumps were after he had the power to pardon, Biden has the current power.

Trumps are cloudy as its basically a records fight under the PRA.

Bidens was having records he had absolutely no possible arguement in favor of having them as VP or senator.

The final conclusion is GAS sucks at their job as all the elected politicians keep leaving with classified documents


I agree that Biden, as senator & VP, had no right to take docs. If Biden, as POTUS, declassifies documents in question, as it is in his power to do, don't the offenses go away?
If you speed through town but slow down to the speed limit afterwards did you break the law?
Depends on if you get caught. Then if your brother-in-law judge does more than a suspended sentence. Trump doesn't have a brother-in-law that likes him.
You're talking about consequences . The fact is, whether or not you pulled over when caught speeding is irrelevant to the fact you were breaking the law by speeding. Trump sped, Biden sped. Trump called 911 while being pulled over to see if the cop was legit and got pit maneuvered into the ditch. Joe was in a stolen car and speeding but since he pulled over he was let go immediately.
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FLBear5630
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In reply to Wangchung • 11:43a, 2/22/24
Wangchung said:
FLBear5630 said:
Wangchung said:
Osodecentx said:
4th and Inches said:
Osodecentx said:
4th and Inches said:
Osodecentx said:
4th and Inches said:
Osodecentx said:
Doc Holliday said:
HuMcK said:
Because they did a due-diligence search when the Trump case started (so did Mike Pence, and he also found some docs) and voluntarily disclosured what they found. Contrast that with Trump ignoring subpoenaes, deliberately hiding docs from authorities when they searched, and ordering his subordinates to destroy evidence.

The difference is pretty obvious to see for anyone eithout their head up Trump's ass.
Trump had power to declassify.

Biden never did.
Biden does now. Trump doesn't
he can pardon himself too.. his alledged crimes happened before he was president. Trumps alledgely happened after he was president.. see the difference or is the angle too obtuse?
I think POTUS can pardon himself, the language in Constitution seems to be absolute, BUT there is a line of legal reasoning out there that disputes that.

1)Should POTUS have absolute immunity from any prosecution no matter what bad acts he commits? If so, he wouldn't need to pardon himself.
2)Do you believe a POTUS can declassify documents by mere thought? 3)If so, then Biden can do the same thing.
1- overly vague- rephrase
2-no
3-no, senator Biden and VP Biden cant declassify sh.. He did the alledged crime before he was president. He can only pardon himself as president for his prior crimes.
1. I'm trying to reconcile Trump's plea for POTUS absolute immunity with the self pardon possibility. This is a hypothetical because POTUS does not have immunity.
Trump claims POTUS should have absolute immunity from any criminal liability for any acts POTUS may commit. You claim that POTUS can pardon himself. If POTUS is immune for any bad acts, the need for a pardon goes away.

(Absolute immunity? No.. immunity from process crimes? Maybe.. other higher level elected civil servants tend to get leniency unless malicious intent is shown.)


2. I agree with you, but that isn't Trump's position.

(I do know there was a notebook the meadows turned in around the last day of Trumps presidency that should have declassified stuff but that never happened)

3. Assuming Biden can only pardon himself as "as president" (while he is president?), then Biden's alleged crimes were committed before he was president (senator an VP) and he could pardon himself. In the alternative, if Biden is indicted for classified documents he took as a senator an VP, why couldn't he, like Trump, pardon himself?

(He can..)

You tell me that Trump, during his presidency, could pardon himself for crimes committed before he was president. On the question of presidential pardons, how do you distinguish the crimes Biden may have committed from the crimes Trump may have committed?
Trumps were after he had the power to pardon, Biden has the current power.

Trumps are cloudy as its basically a records fight under the PRA.

Bidens was having records he had absolutely no possible arguement in favor of having them as VP or senator.

The final conclusion is GAS sucks at their job as all the elected politicians keep leaving with classified documents


I agree that Biden, as senator & VP, had no right to take docs. If Biden, as POTUS, declassifies documents in question, as it is in his power to do, don't the offenses go away?
If you speed through town but slow down to the speed limit afterwards did you break the law?
Depends on if you get caught. Then if your brother-in-law judge does more than a suspended sentence. Trump doesn't have a brother-in-law that likes him.
You're talking about consequences . The fact is, whether or not you pulled over when caught speeding is irrelevant to the fact you were breaking the law by speeding. Trump sped, Biden sped. Trump called 911 while being pulled over to see if the cop was legit and got pit maneuvered into the ditch. Joe was in a stolen car and speeding but since he pulled over he was let go immediately.
Trump called 911? When did Trump call anybody?
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Wangchung
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In reply to FLBear5630 • 12:24p, 2/22/24
FLBear5630 said:
Wangchung said:
FLBear5630 said:
Wangchung said:
Osodecentx said:
4th and Inches said:
Osodecentx said:
4th and Inches said:
Osodecentx said:
4th and Inches said:
Osodecentx said:
Doc Holliday said:
HuMcK said:
Because they did a due-diligence search when the Trump case started (so did Mike Pence, and he also found some docs) and voluntarily disclosured what they found. Contrast that with Trump ignoring subpoenaes, deliberately hiding docs from authorities when they searched, and ordering his subordinates to destroy evidence.

The difference is pretty obvious to see for anyone eithout their head up Trump's ass.
Trump had power to declassify.

Biden never did.
Biden does now. Trump doesn't
he can pardon himself too.. his alledged crimes happened before he was president. Trumps alledgely happened after he was president.. see the difference or is the angle too obtuse?
I think POTUS can pardon himself, the language in Constitution seems to be absolute, BUT there is a line of legal reasoning out there that disputes that.

1)Should POTUS have absolute immunity from any prosecution no matter what bad acts he commits? If so, he wouldn't need to pardon himself.
2)Do you believe a POTUS can declassify documents by mere thought? 3)If so, then Biden can do the same thing.
1- overly vague- rephrase
2-no
3-no, senator Biden and VP Biden cant declassify sh.. He did the alledged crime before he was president. He can only pardon himself as president for his prior crimes.
1. I'm trying to reconcile Trump's plea for POTUS absolute immunity with the self pardon possibility. This is a hypothetical because POTUS does not have immunity.
Trump claims POTUS should have absolute immunity from any criminal liability for any acts POTUS may commit. You claim that POTUS can pardon himself. If POTUS is immune for any bad acts, the need for a pardon goes away.

(Absolute immunity? No.. immunity from process crimes? Maybe.. other higher level elected civil servants tend to get leniency unless malicious intent is shown.)


2. I agree with you, but that isn't Trump's position.

(I do know there was a notebook the meadows turned in around the last day of Trumps presidency that should have declassified stuff but that never happened)

3. Assuming Biden can only pardon himself as "as president" (while he is president?), then Biden's alleged crimes were committed before he was president (senator an VP) and he could pardon himself. In the alternative, if Biden is indicted for classified documents he took as a senator an VP, why couldn't he, like Trump, pardon himself?

(He can..)

You tell me that Trump, during his presidency, could pardon himself for crimes committed before he was president. On the question of presidential pardons, how do you distinguish the crimes Biden may have committed from the crimes Trump may have committed?
Trumps were after he had the power to pardon, Biden has the current power.

Trumps are cloudy as its basically a records fight under the PRA.

Bidens was having records he had absolutely no possible arguement in favor of having them as VP or senator.

The final conclusion is GAS sucks at their job as all the elected politicians keep leaving with classified documents


I agree that Biden, as senator & VP, had no right to take docs. If Biden, as POTUS, declassifies documents in question, as it is in his power to do, don't the offenses go away?
If you speed through town but slow down to the speed limit afterwards did you break the law?
Depends on if you get caught. Then if your brother-in-law judge does more than a suspended sentence. Trump doesn't have a brother-in-law that likes him.
You're talking about consequences . The fact is, whether or not you pulled over when caught speeding is irrelevant to the fact you were breaking the law by speeding. Trump sped, Biden sped. Trump called 911 while being pulled over to see if the cop was legit and got pit maneuvered into the ditch. Joe was in a stolen car and speeding but since he pulled over he was let go immediately.
Trump called 911? When did Trump call anybody?
When negotiations were taking place as far as which files the National Archives wanted back.
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FLBear5630
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In reply to Wangchung • 12:55p, 2/22/24
Wangchung said:
FLBear5630 said:
Wangchung said:
FLBear5630 said:
Wangchung said:
Osodecentx said:
4th and Inches said:
Osodecentx said:
4th and Inches said:
Osodecentx said:
4th and Inches said:
Osodecentx said:
Doc Holliday said:
HuMcK said:
Because they did a due-diligence search when the Trump case started (so did Mike Pence, and he also found some docs) and voluntarily disclosured what they found. Contrast that with Trump ignoring subpoenaes, deliberately hiding docs from authorities when they searched, and ordering his subordinates to destroy evidence.

The difference is pretty obvious to see for anyone eithout their head up Trump's ass.
Trump had power to declassify.

Biden never did.
Biden does now. Trump doesn't
he can pardon himself too.. his alledged crimes happened before he was president. Trumps alledgely happened after he was president.. see the difference or is the angle too obtuse?
I think POTUS can pardon himself, the language in Constitution seems to be absolute, BUT there is a line of legal reasoning out there that disputes that.

1)Should POTUS have absolute immunity from any prosecution no matter what bad acts he commits? If so, he wouldn't need to pardon himself.
2)Do you believe a POTUS can declassify documents by mere thought? 3)If so, then Biden can do the same thing.
1- overly vague- rephrase
2-no
3-no, senator Biden and VP Biden cant declassify sh.. He did the alledged crime before he was president. He can only pardon himself as president for his prior crimes.
1. I'm trying to reconcile Trump's plea for POTUS absolute immunity with the self pardon possibility. This is a hypothetical because POTUS does not have immunity.
Trump claims POTUS should have absolute immunity from any criminal liability for any acts POTUS may commit. You claim that POTUS can pardon himself. If POTUS is immune for any bad acts, the need for a pardon goes away.

(Absolute immunity? No.. immunity from process crimes? Maybe.. other higher level elected civil servants tend to get leniency unless malicious intent is shown.)


2. I agree with you, but that isn't Trump's position.

(I do know there was a notebook the meadows turned in around the last day of Trumps presidency that should have declassified stuff but that never happened)

3. Assuming Biden can only pardon himself as "as president" (while he is president?), then Biden's alleged crimes were committed before he was president (senator an VP) and he could pardon himself. In the alternative, if Biden is indicted for classified documents he took as a senator an VP, why couldn't he, like Trump, pardon himself?

(He can..)

You tell me that Trump, during his presidency, could pardon himself for crimes committed before he was president. On the question of presidential pardons, how do you distinguish the crimes Biden may have committed from the crimes Trump may have committed?
Trumps were after he had the power to pardon, Biden has the current power.

Trumps are cloudy as its basically a records fight under the PRA.

Bidens was having records he had absolutely no possible arguement in favor of having them as VP or senator.

The final conclusion is GAS sucks at their job as all the elected politicians keep leaving with classified documents


I agree that Biden, as senator & VP, had no right to take docs. If Biden, as POTUS, declassifies documents in question, as it is in his power to do, don't the offenses go away?
If you speed through town but slow down to the speed limit afterwards did you break the law?
Depends on if you get caught. Then if your brother-in-law judge does more than a suspended sentence. Trump doesn't have a brother-in-law that likes him.
You're talking about consequences . The fact is, whether or not you pulled over when caught speeding is irrelevant to the fact you were breaking the law by speeding. Trump sped, Biden sped. Trump called 911 while being pulled over to see if the cop was legit and got pit maneuvered into the ditch. Joe was in a stolen car and speeding but since he pulled over he was let go immediately.
Trump called 911? When did Trump call anybody?
When negotiations were taking place as far as which files the National Archives wanted back.
Negotiations? They asked for sensitive docs back and he said they were, but lied. How do you negotiate with a liar? They found docs that he said were returned. But, that is ok. Right? It's Donald
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Wangchung
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In reply to FLBear5630 • 1:07p, 2/22/24
FLBear5630 said:
Wangchung said:
FLBear5630 said:
Wangchung said:
FLBear5630 said:
Wangchung said:
Osodecentx said:
4th and Inches said:
Osodecentx said:
4th and Inches said:
Osodecentx said:
4th and Inches said:
Osodecentx said:
Doc Holliday said:
HuMcK said:
Because they did a due-diligence search when the Trump case started (so did Mike Pence, and he also found some docs) and voluntarily disclosured what they found. Contrast that with Trump ignoring subpoenaes, deliberately hiding docs from authorities when they searched, and ordering his subordinates to destroy evidence.

The difference is pretty obvious to see for anyone eithout their head up Trump's ass.
Trump had power to declassify.

Biden never did.
Biden does now. Trump doesn't
he can pardon himself too.. his alledged crimes happened before he was president. Trumps alledgely happened after he was president.. see the difference or is the angle too obtuse?
I think POTUS can pardon himself, the language in Constitution seems to be absolute, BUT there is a line of legal reasoning out there that disputes that.

1)Should POTUS have absolute immunity from any prosecution no matter what bad acts he commits? If so, he wouldn't need to pardon himself.
2)Do you believe a POTUS can declassify documents by mere thought? 3)If so, then Biden can do the same thing.
1- overly vague- rephrase
2-no
3-no, senator Biden and VP Biden cant declassify sh.. He did the alledged crime before he was president. He can only pardon himself as president for his prior crimes.
1. I'm trying to reconcile Trump's plea for POTUS absolute immunity with the self pardon possibility. This is a hypothetical because POTUS does not have immunity.
Trump claims POTUS should have absolute immunity from any criminal liability for any acts POTUS may commit. You claim that POTUS can pardon himself. If POTUS is immune for any bad acts, the need for a pardon goes away.

(Absolute immunity? No.. immunity from process crimes? Maybe.. other higher level elected civil servants tend to get leniency unless malicious intent is shown.)


2. I agree with you, but that isn't Trump's position.

(I do know there was a notebook the meadows turned in around the last day of Trumps presidency that should have declassified stuff but that never happened)

3. Assuming Biden can only pardon himself as "as president" (while he is president?), then Biden's alleged crimes were committed before he was president (senator an VP) and he could pardon himself. In the alternative, if Biden is indicted for classified documents he took as a senator an VP, why couldn't he, like Trump, pardon himself?

(He can..)

You tell me that Trump, during his presidency, could pardon himself for crimes committed before he was president. On the question of presidential pardons, how do you distinguish the crimes Biden may have committed from the crimes Trump may have committed?
Trumps were after he had the power to pardon, Biden has the current power.

Trumps are cloudy as its basically a records fight under the PRA.

Bidens was having records he had absolutely no possible arguement in favor of having them as VP or senator.

The final conclusion is GAS sucks at their job as all the elected politicians keep leaving with classified documents


I agree that Biden, as senator & VP, had no right to take docs. If Biden, as POTUS, declassifies documents in question, as it is in his power to do, don't the offenses go away?
If you speed through town but slow down to the speed limit afterwards did you break the law?
Depends on if you get caught. Then if your brother-in-law judge does more than a suspended sentence. Trump doesn't have a brother-in-law that likes him.
You're talking about consequences . The fact is, whether or not you pulled over when caught speeding is irrelevant to the fact you were breaking the law by speeding. Trump sped, Biden sped. Trump called 911 while being pulled over to see if the cop was legit and got pit maneuvered into the ditch. Joe was in a stolen car and speeding but since he pulled over he was let go immediately.
Trump called 911? When did Trump call anybody?
When negotiations were taking place as far as which files the National Archives wanted back.
Negotiations? They asked for sensitive docs back and he said they were, but lied. How do you negotiate with a liar? They found docs that he said were returned. But, that is ok. Right? It's Donald
So he returned FIFTEEN boxes of files that were requested but the NA wanted more. Between June and and August they didn't get what they wanted(Trump to pull over on their preferred timeline)so they raided Mar A Lago(Pit maneuver). Biden stole a car and also sped through town but since he pulled over after sending the cops after Trump, we can ignore the fact he stole the car and sped.
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FLBear5630
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In reply to Wangchung • 1:29p, 2/22/24
Wangchung said:
FLBear5630 said:
Wangchung said:
FLBear5630 said:
Wangchung said:
FLBear5630 said:
Wangchung said:
Osodecentx said:
4th and Inches said:
Osodecentx said:
4th and Inches said:
Osodecentx said:
4th and Inches said:
Osodecentx said:
Doc Holliday said:
HuMcK said:
Because they did a due-diligence search when the Trump case started (so did Mike Pence, and he also found some docs) and voluntarily disclosured what they found. Contrast that with Trump ignoring subpoenaes, deliberately hiding docs from authorities when they searched, and ordering his subordinates to destroy evidence.

The difference is pretty obvious to see for anyone eithout their head up Trump's ass.
Trump had power to declassify.

Biden never did.
Biden does now. Trump doesn't
he can pardon himself too.. his alledged crimes happened before he was president. Trumps alledgely happened after he was president.. see the difference or is the angle too obtuse?
I think POTUS can pardon himself, the language in Constitution seems to be absolute, BUT there is a line of legal reasoning out there that disputes that.

1)Should POTUS have absolute immunity from any prosecution no matter what bad acts he commits? If so, he wouldn't need to pardon himself.
2)Do you believe a POTUS can declassify documents by mere thought? 3)If so, then Biden can do the same thing.
1- overly vague- rephrase
2-no
3-no, senator Biden and VP Biden cant declassify sh.. He did the alledged crime before he was president. He can only pardon himself as president for his prior crimes.
1. I'm trying to reconcile Trump's plea for POTUS absolute immunity with the self pardon possibility. This is a hypothetical because POTUS does not have immunity.
Trump claims POTUS should have absolute immunity from any criminal liability for any acts POTUS may commit. You claim that POTUS can pardon himself. If POTUS is immune for any bad acts, the need for a pardon goes away.

(Absolute immunity? No.. immunity from process crimes? Maybe.. other higher level elected civil servants tend to get leniency unless malicious intent is shown.)


2. I agree with you, but that isn't Trump's position.

(I do know there was a notebook the meadows turned in around the last day of Trumps presidency that should have declassified stuff but that never happened)

3. Assuming Biden can only pardon himself as "as president" (while he is president?), then Biden's alleged crimes were committed before he was president (senator an VP) and he could pardon himself. In the alternative, if Biden is indicted for classified documents he took as a senator an VP, why couldn't he, like Trump, pardon himself?

(He can..)

You tell me that Trump, during his presidency, could pardon himself for crimes committed before he was president. On the question of presidential pardons, how do you distinguish the crimes Biden may have committed from the crimes Trump may have committed?
Trumps were after he had the power to pardon, Biden has the current power.

Trumps are cloudy as its basically a records fight under the PRA.

Bidens was having records he had absolutely no possible arguement in favor of having them as VP or senator.

The final conclusion is GAS sucks at their job as all the elected politicians keep leaving with classified documents


I agree that Biden, as senator & VP, had no right to take docs. If Biden, as POTUS, declassifies documents in question, as it is in his power to do, don't the offenses go away?
If you speed through town but slow down to the speed limit afterwards did you break the law?
Depends on if you get caught. Then if your brother-in-law judge does more than a suspended sentence. Trump doesn't have a brother-in-law that likes him.
You're talking about consequences . The fact is, whether or not you pulled over when caught speeding is irrelevant to the fact you were breaking the law by speeding. Trump sped, Biden sped. Trump called 911 while being pulled over to see if the cop was legit and got pit maneuvered into the ditch. Joe was in a stolen car and speeding but since he pulled over he was let go immediately.
Trump called 911? When did Trump call anybody?
When negotiations were taking place as far as which files the National Archives wanted back.
Negotiations? They asked for sensitive docs back and he said they were, but lied. How do you negotiate with a liar? They found docs that he said were returned. But, that is ok. Right? It's Donald
So he returned FIFTEEN boxes of files that were requested but the NA wanted more. Between June and and August they didn't get what they wanted(Trump to pull over on their preferred timeline)so they raided Mar A Lago(Pit maneuver). Biden stole a car and also sped through town but since he pulled over after sending the cops after Trump, we can ignore the fact he stole the car and sped.
Only a 102 were found - 17 top secret, 54 secret, and 31 confidential. Yeah, that was nothing...
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Osodecentx
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In reply to Wangchung • 1:39p, 2/22/24
Wangchung said:
Osodecentx said:
4th and Inches said:
Osodecentx said:
4th and Inches said:
Osodecentx said:
4th and Inches said:
Osodecentx said:
Doc Holliday said:
HuMcK said:
Because they did a due-diligence search when the Trump case started (so did Mike Pence, and he also found some docs) and voluntarily disclosured what they found. Contrast that with Trump ignoring subpoenaes, deliberately hiding docs from authorities when they searched, and ordering his subordinates to destroy evidence.

The difference is pretty obvious to see for anyone eithout their head up Trump's ass.
Trump had power to declassify.

Biden never did.
Biden does now. Trump doesn't
he can pardon himself too.. his alledged crimes happened before he was president. Trumps alledgely happened after he was president.. see the difference or is the angle too obtuse?
I think POTUS can pardon himself, the language in Constitution seems to be absolute, BUT there is a line of legal reasoning out there that disputes that.

1)Should POTUS have absolute immunity from any prosecution no matter what bad acts he commits? If so, he wouldn't need to pardon himself.
2)Do you believe a POTUS can declassify documents by mere thought? 3)If so, then Biden can do the same thing.
1- overly vague- rephrase
2-no
3-no, senator Biden and VP Biden cant declassify sh.. He did the alledged crime before he was president. He can only pardon himself as president for his prior crimes.
1. I'm trying to reconcile Trump's plea for POTUS absolute immunity with the self pardon possibility. This is a hypothetical because POTUS does not have immunity.
Trump claims POTUS should have absolute immunity from any criminal liability for any acts POTUS may commit. You claim that POTUS can pardon himself. If POTUS is immune for any bad acts, the need for a pardon goes away.

(Absolute immunity? No.. immunity from process crimes? Maybe.. other higher level elected civil servants tend to get leniency unless malicious intent is shown.)


2. I agree with you, but that isn't Trump's position.

(I do know there was a notebook the meadows turned in around the last day of Trumps presidency that should have declassified stuff but that never happened)

3. Assuming Biden can only pardon himself as "as president" (while he is president?), then Biden's alleged crimes were committed before he was president (senator an VP) and he could pardon himself. In the alternative, if Biden is indicted for classified documents he took as a senator an VP, why couldn't he, like Trump, pardon himself?

(He can..)

You tell me that Trump, during his presidency, could pardon himself for crimes committed before he was president. On the question of presidential pardons, how do you distinguish the crimes Biden may have committed from the crimes Trump may have committed?
Trumps were after he had the power to pardon, Biden has the current power.

Trumps are cloudy as its basically a records fight under the PRA.

Bidens was having records he had absolutely no possible arguement in favor of having them as VP or senator.

The final conclusion is GAS sucks at their job as all the elected politicians keep leaving with classified documents


I agree that Biden, as senator & VP, had no right to take docs. If Biden, as POTUS, declassifies documents in question, as it is in his power to do, don't the offenses go away?
If you speed through town but slow down to the speed limit afterwards did you break the law?


Yes, of course
And if I can pardon myself?
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4th and Inches
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In reply to Osodecentx • 1:40p, 2/22/24
Osodecentx said:
4th and Inches said:
Osodecentx said:
4th and Inches said:
Osodecentx said:
4th and Inches said:
Osodecentx said:
Doc Holliday said:
HuMcK said:
Because they did a due-diligence search when the Trump case started (so did Mike Pence, and he also found some docs) and voluntarily disclosured what they found. Contrast that with Trump ignoring subpoenaes, deliberately hiding docs from authorities when they searched, and ordering his subordinates to destroy evidence.

The difference is pretty obvious to see for anyone eithout their head up Trump's ass.
Trump had power to declassify.

Biden never did.
Biden does now. Trump doesn't
he can pardon himself too.. his alledged crimes happened before he was president. Trumps alledgely happened after he was president.. see the difference or is the angle too obtuse?
I think POTUS can pardon himself, the language in Constitution seems to be absolute, BUT there is a line of legal reasoning out there that disputes that.

1)Should POTUS have absolute immunity from any prosecution no matter what bad acts he commits? If so, he wouldn't need to pardon himself.
2)Do you believe a POTUS can declassify documents by mere thought? 3)If so, then Biden can do the same thing.
1- overly vague- rephrase
2-no
3-no, senator Biden and VP Biden cant declassify sh.. He did the alledged crime before he was president. He can only pardon himself as president for his prior crimes.
1. I'm trying to reconcile Trump's plea for POTUS absolute immunity with the self pardon possibility. This is a hypothetical because POTUS does not have immunity.
Trump claims POTUS should have absolute immunity from any criminal liability for any acts POTUS may commit. You claim that POTUS can pardon himself. If POTUS is immune for any bad acts, the need for a pardon goes away.

(Absolute immunity? No.. immunity from process crimes? Maybe.. other higher level elected civil servants tend to get leniency unless malicious intent is shown.)


2. I agree with you, but that isn't Trump's position.

(I do know there was a notebook the meadows turned in around the last day of Trumps presidency that should have declassified stuff but that never happened)

3. Assuming Biden can only pardon himself as "as president" (while he is president?), then Biden's alleged crimes were committed before he was president (senator an VP) and he could pardon himself. In the alternative, if Biden is indicted for classified documents he took as a senator an VP, why couldn't he, like Trump, pardon himself?

(He can..)

You tell me that Trump, during his presidency, could pardon himself for crimes committed before he was president. On the question of presidential pardons, how do you distinguish the crimes Biden may have committed from the crimes Trump may have committed?
Trumps were after he had the power to pardon, Biden has the current power.

Trumps are cloudy as its basically a records fight under the PRA.

Bidens was having records he had absolutely no possible arguement in favor of having them as VP or senator.

The final conclusion is GAS sucks at their job as all the elected politicians keep leaving with classified documents


I agree that Biden, as senator & VP, had no right to take docs. If Biden, as POTUS, declassifies documents in question, as it is in his power to do, don't the offenses go away?
no, the offense happened prior

Weed is legal now in places but people in jail for weed in those locations
“The Internet is just a world passing around notes in a classroom.”

Jon Stewart
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4th and Inches
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In reply to FLBear5630 • 1:41p, 2/22/24
FLBear5630 said:
Wangchung said:
FLBear5630 said:
Wangchung said:
FLBear5630 said:
Wangchung said:
FLBear5630 said:
Wangchung said:
Osodecentx said:
4th and Inches said:
Osodecentx said:
4th and Inches said:
Osodecentx said:
4th and Inches said:
Osodecentx said:
Doc Holliday said:
HuMcK said:
Because they did a due-diligence search when the Trump case started (so did Mike Pence, and he also found some docs) and voluntarily disclosured what they found. Contrast that with Trump ignoring subpoenaes, deliberately hiding docs from authorities when they searched, and ordering his subordinates to destroy evidence.

The difference is pretty obvious to see for anyone eithout their head up Trump's ass.
Trump had power to declassify.

Biden never did.
Biden does now. Trump doesn't
he can pardon himself too.. his alledged crimes happened before he was president. Trumps alledgely happened after he was president.. see the difference or is the angle too obtuse?
I think POTUS can pardon himself, the language in Constitution seems to be absolute, BUT there is a line of legal reasoning out there that disputes that.

1)Should POTUS have absolute immunity from any prosecution no matter what bad acts he commits? If so, he wouldn't need to pardon himself.
2)Do you believe a POTUS can declassify documents by mere thought? 3)If so, then Biden can do the same thing.
1- overly vague- rephrase
2-no
3-no, senator Biden and VP Biden cant declassify sh.. He did the alledged crime before he was president. He can only pardon himself as president for his prior crimes.
1. I'm trying to reconcile Trump's plea for POTUS absolute immunity with the self pardon possibility. This is a hypothetical because POTUS does not have immunity.
Trump claims POTUS should have absolute immunity from any criminal liability for any acts POTUS may commit. You claim that POTUS can pardon himself. If POTUS is immune for any bad acts, the need for a pardon goes away.

(Absolute immunity? No.. immunity from process crimes? Maybe.. other higher level elected civil servants tend to get leniency unless malicious intent is shown.)


2. I agree with you, but that isn't Trump's position.

(I do know there was a notebook the meadows turned in around the last day of Trumps presidency that should have declassified stuff but that never happened)

3. Assuming Biden can only pardon himself as "as president" (while he is president?), then Biden's alleged crimes were committed before he was president (senator an VP) and he could pardon himself. In the alternative, if Biden is indicted for classified documents he took as a senator an VP, why couldn't he, like Trump, pardon himself?

(He can..)

You tell me that Trump, during his presidency, could pardon himself for crimes committed before he was president. On the question of presidential pardons, how do you distinguish the crimes Biden may have committed from the crimes Trump may have committed?
Trumps were after he had the power to pardon, Biden has the current power.

Trumps are cloudy as its basically a records fight under the PRA.

Bidens was having records he had absolutely no possible arguement in favor of having them as VP or senator.

The final conclusion is GAS sucks at their job as all the elected politicians keep leaving with classified documents


I agree that Biden, as senator & VP, had no right to take docs. If Biden, as POTUS, declassifies documents in question, as it is in his power to do, don't the offenses go away?
If you speed through town but slow down to the speed limit afterwards did you break the law?
Depends on if you get caught. Then if your brother-in-law judge does more than a suspended sentence. Trump doesn't have a brother-in-law that likes him.
You're talking about consequences . The fact is, whether or not you pulled over when caught speeding is irrelevant to the fact you were breaking the law by speeding. Trump sped, Biden sped. Trump called 911 while being pulled over to see if the cop was legit and got pit maneuvered into the ditch. Joe was in a stolen car and speeding but since he pulled over he was let go immediately.
Trump called 911? When did Trump call anybody?
When negotiations were taking place as far as which files the National Archives wanted back.
Negotiations? They asked for sensitive docs back and he said they were, but lied. How do you negotiate with a liar? They found docs that he said were returned. But, that is ok. Right? It's Donald
So he returned FIFTEEN boxes of files that were requested but the NA wanted more. Between June and and August they didn't get what they wanted(Trump to pull over on their preferred timeline)so they raided Mar A Lago(Pit maneuver). Biden stole a car and also sped through town but since he pulled over after sending the cops after Trump, we can ignore the fact he stole the car and sped.
Only a 102 were found - 17 top secret, 54 secret, and 31 confidential. Yeah, that was nothing...
actual documents of covers?
“The Internet is just a world passing around notes in a classroom.”

Jon Stewart
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Osodecentx
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In reply to 4th and Inches • 2:05p, 2/22/24
4th and Inches said:
Osodecentx said:
4th and Inches said:
Osodecentx said:
4th and Inches said:
Osodecentx said:
4th and Inches said:
Osodecentx said:
Doc Holliday said:
HuMcK said:
Because they did a due-diligence search when the Trump case started (so did Mike Pence, and he also found some docs) and voluntarily disclosured what they found. Contrast that with Trump ignoring subpoenaes, deliberately hiding docs from authorities when they searched, and ordering his subordinates to destroy evidence.

The difference is pretty obvious to see for anyone eithout their head up Trump's ass.
Trump had power to declassify.

Biden never did.
Biden does now. Trump doesn't
he can pardon himself too.. his alledged crimes happened before he was president. Trumps alledgely happened after he was president.. see the difference or is the angle too obtuse?
I think POTUS can pardon himself, the language in Constitution seems to be absolute, BUT there is a line of legal reasoning out there that disputes that.

1)Should POTUS have absolute immunity from any prosecution no matter what bad acts he commits? If so, he wouldn't need to pardon himself.
2)Do you believe a POTUS can declassify documents by mere thought? 3)If so, then Biden can do the same thing.
1- overly vague- rephrase
2-no
3-no, senator Biden and VP Biden cant declassify sh.. He did the alledged crime before he was president. He can only pardon himself as president for his prior crimes.
1. I'm trying to reconcile Trump's plea for POTUS absolute immunity with the self pardon possibility. This is a hypothetical because POTUS does not have immunity.
Trump claims POTUS should have absolute immunity from any criminal liability for any acts POTUS may commit. You claim that POTUS can pardon himself. If POTUS is immune for any bad acts, the need for a pardon goes away.

(Absolute immunity? No.. immunity from process crimes? Maybe.. other higher level elected civil servants tend to get leniency unless malicious intent is shown.)


2. I agree with you, but that isn't Trump's position.

(I do know there was a notebook the meadows turned in around the last day of Trumps presidency that should have declassified stuff but that never happened)

3. Assuming Biden can only pardon himself as "as president" (while he is president?), then Biden's alleged crimes were committed before he was president (senator an VP) and he could pardon himself. In the alternative, if Biden is indicted for classified documents he took as a senator an VP, why couldn't he, like Trump, pardon himself?

(He can..)

You tell me that Trump, during his presidency, could pardon himself for crimes committed before he was president. On the question of presidential pardons, how do you distinguish the crimes Biden may have committed from the crimes Trump may have committed?
Trumps were after he had the power to pardon, Biden has the current power.

Trumps are cloudy as its basically a records fight under the PRA.

Bidens was having records he had absolutely no possible arguement in favor of having them as VP or senator.

The final conclusion is GAS sucks at their job as all the elected politicians keep leaving with classified documents


I agree that Biden, as senator & VP, had no right to take docs. If Biden, as POTUS, declassifies documents in question, as it is in his power to do, don't the offenses go away?
no, the offense happened prior


I agree
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Porteroso
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In reply to Wangchung • 6:49p, 2/22/24
Wangchung said:
FLBear5630 said:
Wangchung said:
FLBear5630 said:
Wangchung said:
Osodecentx said:
4th and Inches said:
Osodecentx said:
4th and Inches said:
Osodecentx said:
4th and Inches said:
Osodecentx said:
Doc Holliday said:
HuMcK said:
Because they did a due-diligence search when the Trump case started (so did Mike Pence, and he also found some docs) and voluntarily disclosured what they found. Contrast that with Trump ignoring subpoenaes, deliberately hiding docs from authorities when they searched, and ordering his subordinates to destroy evidence.

The difference is pretty obvious to see for anyone eithout their head up Trump's ass.
Trump had power to declassify.

Biden never did.
Biden does now. Trump doesn't
he can pardon himself too.. his alledged crimes happened before he was president. Trumps alledgely happened after he was president.. see the difference or is the angle too obtuse?
I think POTUS can pardon himself, the language in Constitution seems to be absolute, BUT there is a line of legal reasoning out there that disputes that.

1)Should POTUS have absolute immunity from any prosecution no matter what bad acts he commits? If so, he wouldn't need to pardon himself.
2)Do you believe a POTUS can declassify documents by mere thought? 3)If so, then Biden can do the same thing.
1- overly vague- rephrase
2-no
3-no, senator Biden and VP Biden cant declassify sh.. He did the alledged crime before he was president. He can only pardon himself as president for his prior crimes.
1. I'm trying to reconcile Trump's plea for POTUS absolute immunity with the self pardon possibility. This is a hypothetical because POTUS does not have immunity.
Trump claims POTUS should have absolute immunity from any criminal liability for any acts POTUS may commit. You claim that POTUS can pardon himself. If POTUS is immune for any bad acts, the need for a pardon goes away.

(Absolute immunity? No.. immunity from process crimes? Maybe.. other higher level elected civil servants tend to get leniency unless malicious intent is shown.)


2. I agree with you, but that isn't Trump's position.

(I do know there was a notebook the meadows turned in around the last day of Trumps presidency that should have declassified stuff but that never happened)

3. Assuming Biden can only pardon himself as "as president" (while he is president?), then Biden's alleged crimes were committed before he was president (senator an VP) and he could pardon himself. In the alternative, if Biden is indicted for classified documents he took as a senator an VP, why couldn't he, like Trump, pardon himself?

(He can..)

You tell me that Trump, during his presidency, could pardon himself for crimes committed before he was president. On the question of presidential pardons, how do you distinguish the crimes Biden may have committed from the crimes Trump may have committed?
Trumps were after he had the power to pardon, Biden has the current power.

Trumps are cloudy as its basically a records fight under the PRA.

Bidens was having records he had absolutely no possible arguement in favor of having them as VP or senator.

The final conclusion is GAS sucks at their job as all the elected politicians keep leaving with classified documents


I agree that Biden, as senator & VP, had no right to take docs. If Biden, as POTUS, declassifies documents in question, as it is in his power to do, don't the offenses go away?
If you speed through town but slow down to the speed limit afterwards did you break the law?
Depends on if you get caught. Then if your brother-in-law judge does more than a suspended sentence. Trump doesn't have a brother-in-law that likes him.
You're talking about consequences . The fact is, whether or not you pulled over when caught speeding is irrelevant to the fact you were breaking the law by speeding. Trump sped, Biden sped. Trump called 911 while being pulled over to see if the cop was legit and got pit maneuvered into the ditch. Joe was in a stolen car and speeding but since he pulled over he was let go immediately.
Trump called 911? When did Trump call anybody?
When negotiations were taking place as far as which files the National Archives wanted back.

Is that what you call ignoring the National Archives? Negotiation?
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KaiBear
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6:55p, 2/22/24
Trump has documents he shouldn't have and gets indicted.

Biden has documents he shouldn't have but gets a pass.


Not remotely right.
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Wangchung
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In reply to Porteroso • 7:32p, 2/22/24
Porteroso said:
Wangchung said:
FLBear5630 said:
Wangchung said:
FLBear5630 said:
Wangchung said:
Osodecentx said:
4th and Inches said:
Osodecentx said:
4th and Inches said:
Osodecentx said:
4th and Inches said:
Osodecentx said:
Doc Holliday said:
HuMcK said:
Because they did a due-diligence search when the Trump case started (so did Mike Pence, and he also found some docs) and voluntarily disclosured what they found. Contrast that with Trump ignoring subpoenaes, deliberately hiding docs from authorities when they searched, and ordering his subordinates to destroy evidence.

The difference is pretty obvious to see for anyone eithout their head up Trump's ass.
Trump had power to declassify.

Biden never did.
Biden does now. Trump doesn't
he can pardon himself too.. his alledged crimes happened before he was president. Trumps alledgely happened after he was president.. see the difference or is the angle too obtuse?
I think POTUS can pardon himself, the language in Constitution seems to be absolute, BUT there is a line of legal reasoning out there that disputes that.

1)Should POTUS have absolute immunity from any prosecution no matter what bad acts he commits? If so, he wouldn't need to pardon himself.
2)Do you believe a POTUS can declassify documents by mere thought? 3)If so, then Biden can do the same thing.
1- overly vague- rephrase
2-no
3-no, senator Biden and VP Biden cant declassify sh.. He did the alledged crime before he was president. He can only pardon himself as president for his prior crimes.
1. I'm trying to reconcile Trump's plea for POTUS absolute immunity with the self pardon possibility. This is a hypothetical because POTUS does not have immunity.
Trump claims POTUS should have absolute immunity from any criminal liability for any acts POTUS may commit. You claim that POTUS can pardon himself. If POTUS is immune for any bad acts, the need for a pardon goes away.

(Absolute immunity? No.. immunity from process crimes? Maybe.. other higher level elected civil servants tend to get leniency unless malicious intent is shown.)


2. I agree with you, but that isn't Trump's position.

(I do know there was a notebook the meadows turned in around the last day of Trumps presidency that should have declassified stuff but that never happened)

3. Assuming Biden can only pardon himself as "as president" (while he is president?), then Biden's alleged crimes were committed before he was president (senator an VP) and he could pardon himself. In the alternative, if Biden is indicted for classified documents he took as a senator an VP, why couldn't he, like Trump, pardon himself?

(He can..)

You tell me that Trump, during his presidency, could pardon himself for crimes committed before he was president. On the question of presidential pardons, how do you distinguish the crimes Biden may have committed from the crimes Trump may have committed?
Trumps were after he had the power to pardon, Biden has the current power.

Trumps are cloudy as its basically a records fight under the PRA.

Bidens was having records he had absolutely no possible arguement in favor of having them as VP or senator.

The final conclusion is GAS sucks at their job as all the elected politicians keep leaving with classified documents


I agree that Biden, as senator & VP, had no right to take docs. If Biden, as POTUS, declassifies documents in question, as it is in his power to do, don't the offenses go away?
If you speed through town but slow down to the speed limit afterwards did you break the law?
Depends on if you get caught. Then if your brother-in-law judge does more than a suspended sentence. Trump doesn't have a brother-in-law that likes him.
You're talking about consequences . The fact is, whether or not you pulled over when caught speeding is irrelevant to the fact you were breaking the law by speeding. Trump sped, Biden sped. Trump called 911 while being pulled over to see if the cop was legit and got pit maneuvered into the ditch. Joe was in a stolen car and speeding but since he pulled over he was let go immediately.
Trump called 911? When did Trump call anybody?
When negotiations were taking place as far as which files the National Archives wanted back.

Is that what you call ignoring the National Archives? Negotiation?
Is that what you calm negotiations that spanned a few months and had multiple boxes returned to the NA? "Ignoring"?
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RD2WINAGNBEAR86
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In reply to Osodecentx • 7:43p, 2/22/24
Osodecentx said:
4th and Inches said:
Osodecentx said:
4th and Inches said:
Osodecentx said:
4th and Inches said:
Osodecentx said:
Doc Holliday said:
HuMcK said:
Because they did a due-diligence search when the Trump case started (so did Mike Pence, and he also found some docs) and voluntarily disclosured what they found. Contrast that with Trump ignoring subpoenaes, deliberately hiding docs from authorities when they searched, and ordering his subordinates to destroy evidence.

The difference is pretty obvious to see for anyone eithout their head up Trump's ass.
Trump had power to declassify.

Biden never did.
Biden does now. Trump doesn't
he can pardon himself too.. his alledged crimes happened before he was president. Trumps alledgely happened after he was president.. see the difference or is the angle too obtuse?
I think POTUS can pardon himself, the language in Constitution seems to be absolute, BUT there is a line of legal reasoning out there that disputes that.

1)Should POTUS have absolute immunity from any prosecution no matter what bad acts he commits? If so, he wouldn't need to pardon himself.
2)Do you believe a POTUS can declassify documents by mere thought? 3)If so, then Biden can do the same thing.
1- overly vague- rephrase
2-no
3-no, senator Biden and VP Biden cant declassify sh.. He did the alledged crime before he was president. He can only pardon himself as president for his prior crimes.
1. I'm trying to reconcile Trump's plea for POTUS absolute immunity with the self pardon possibility. This is a hypothetical because POTUS does not have immunity.
Trump claims POTUS should have absolute immunity from any criminal liability for any acts POTUS may commit. You claim that POTUS can pardon himself. If POTUS is immune for any bad acts, the need for a pardon goes away.

(Absolute immunity? No.. immunity from process crimes? Maybe.. other higher level elected civil servants tend to get leniency unless malicious intent is shown.)


2. I agree with you, but that isn't Trump's position.

(I do know there was a notebook the meadows turned in around the last day of Trumps presidency that should have declassified stuff but that never happened)

3. Assuming Biden can only pardon himself as "as president" (while he is president?), then Biden's alleged crimes were committed before he was president (senator an VP) and he could pardon himself. In the alternative, if Biden is indicted for classified documents he took as a senator an VP, why couldn't he, like Trump, pardon himself?

(He can..)

You tell me that Trump, during his presidency, could pardon himself for crimes committed before he was president. On the question of presidential pardons, how do you distinguish the crimes Biden may have committed from the crimes Trump may have committed?
Trumps were after he had the power to pardon, Biden has the current power.

Trumps are cloudy as its basically a records fight under the PRA.

Bidens was having records he had absolutely no possible arguement in favor of having them as VP or senator.

The final conclusion is GAS sucks at their job as all the elected politicians keep leaving with classified documents


I agree that Biden, as senator & VP, had no right to take docs. If Biden, as POTUS, declassifies documents in question, as it is in his power to do, don't the offenses go away?
I would think so. Cocaine in the White House went away like a fart in a hurricane!
"Stand with anyone when he is right; Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong." - Abraham Lincoln
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BusyTarpDuster2017
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In reply to FLBear5630 • 8:57p, 2/22/24
FLBear5630 said:
BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
FLBear5630 said:
ATL Bear said:
Redbrickbear said:
Mar a Lago might be worth what Trump claims it is if he hadn't decided to avoid property taxes by making it a conservation and preservation site. Can't sell it as a residence, can't sell it as a development property, and heavy restrictions on the renovations allowed. Trump created the $18 million valuation through the property tax avoidance moves.
Trump keeps playing all sides and expecting everyone to just ignore it. For tax purposes he made it conservation/preservation site and a social club, which in FL has massive restrictions. He did that it when he was in financial distress, funny since running for President he is flush. The issue with what Trump did is that he listed it as an unrestricted residential plot, which could be sold and redeveloped. It clearly is not, that is the basis of the fraud case for Mar a Lago. He did not value it as a social club, which is how Palm Beach County values it for tax purposes.

He has multiple others that are all over the place, some he just outright lied about the size.

But suppose Trump had defaulted on the loan, and the banks seize the property. Would the banks be required to keep it's designation as a conservation and preservation site, or can they change it and sell it as a residence at fair market value? If that's the case, then for the purpose of collateral, it would be fair for Trump to list it as such, because that would be it's potential value for the bank.

Anyone here know whether this is the case or not with seized property? Please enlighten us.
No, it is a Conservation and Preservation, as well as has a National Historic designation.

Trump bought it for 10 million because it was in disrepair. He upgraded it. When having money issues he tried to break it up and build mansions, but Palm Beach County said no. They allowed him to make it a Social Club (Limited to 500 members, 500k buy in and 20k a year) and taxed it as such so Trump could cover maintenance.

True it is unique piece of property, as is the other Mansion that were built in that timeframe. The Breakers (Rockefellers) is a resort now for example. Mar a Lago was built by EF Hutton, it is in that niche. It is like the Vatican, they are asset rich but Cash poor. The Vatican can get billions, but they really can't. Trump calls it the Mona Lisa of properties, the Mona Lisa will never be sold. Other properties, smaller, went for about 70 million. .

Still, regardless of the valuation, shouldn't NY have to prove the basis of their case, that Trump received a loan he otherwise would not have gotten were it not for the "fraud", by having the lenders themselves confirm it rather than the state of NY just assuming it? Did they do that or not? If not, then how can the case have merit?
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FLBear5630
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In reply to 4th and Inches • 7:26a, 2/23/24
4th and Inches said:
FLBear5630 said:
Wangchung said:
FLBear5630 said:
Wangchung said:
FLBear5630 said:
Wangchung said:
FLBear5630 said:
Wangchung said:
Osodecentx said:
4th and Inches said:
Osodecentx said:
4th and Inches said:
Osodecentx said:
4th and Inches said:
Osodecentx said:
Doc Holliday said:
HuMcK said:
Because they did a due-diligence search when the Trump case started (so did Mike Pence, and he also found some docs) and voluntarily disclosured what they found. Contrast that with Trump ignoring subpoenaes, deliberately hiding docs from authorities when they searched, and ordering his subordinates to destroy evidence.

The difference is pretty obvious to see for anyone eithout their head up Trump's ass.
Trump had power to declassify.

Biden never did.
Biden does now. Trump doesn't
he can pardon himself too.. his alledged crimes happened before he was president. Trumps alledgely happened after he was president.. see the difference or is the angle too obtuse?
I think POTUS can pardon himself, the language in Constitution seems to be absolute, BUT there is a line of legal reasoning out there that disputes that.

1)Should POTUS have absolute immunity from any prosecution no matter what bad acts he commits? If so, he wouldn't need to pardon himself.
2)Do you believe a POTUS can declassify documents by mere thought? 3)If so, then Biden can do the same thing.
1- overly vague- rephrase
2-no
3-no, senator Biden and VP Biden cant declassify sh.. He did the alledged crime before he was president. He can only pardon himself as president for his prior crimes.
1. I'm trying to reconcile Trump's plea for POTUS absolute immunity with the self pardon possibility. This is a hypothetical because POTUS does not have immunity.
Trump claims POTUS should have absolute immunity from any criminal liability for any acts POTUS may commit. You claim that POTUS can pardon himself. If POTUS is immune for any bad acts, the need for a pardon goes away.

(Absolute immunity? No.. immunity from process crimes? Maybe.. other higher level elected civil servants tend to get leniency unless malicious intent is shown.)


2. I agree with you, but that isn't Trump's position.

(I do know there was a notebook the meadows turned in around the last day of Trumps presidency that should have declassified stuff but that never happened)

3. Assuming Biden can only pardon himself as "as president" (while he is president?), then Biden's alleged crimes were committed before he was president (senator an VP) and he could pardon himself. In the alternative, if Biden is indicted for classified documents he took as a senator an VP, why couldn't he, like Trump, pardon himself?

(He can..)

You tell me that Trump, during his presidency, could pardon himself for crimes committed before he was president. On the question of presidential pardons, how do you distinguish the crimes Biden may have committed from the crimes Trump may have committed?
Trumps were after he had the power to pardon, Biden has the current power.

Trumps are cloudy as its basically a records fight under the PRA.

Bidens was having records he had absolutely no possible arguement in favor of having them as VP or senator.

The final conclusion is GAS sucks at their job as all the elected politicians keep leaving with classified documents


I agree that Biden, as senator & VP, had no right to take docs. If Biden, as POTUS, declassifies documents in question, as it is in his power to do, don't the offenses go away?
If you speed through town but slow down to the speed limit afterwards did you break the law?
Depends on if you get caught. Then if your brother-in-law judge does more than a suspended sentence. Trump doesn't have a brother-in-law that likes him.
You're talking about consequences . The fact is, whether or not you pulled over when caught speeding is irrelevant to the fact you were breaking the law by speeding. Trump sped, Biden sped. Trump called 911 while being pulled over to see if the cop was legit and got pit maneuvered into the ditch. Joe was in a stolen car and speeding but since he pulled over he was let go immediately.
Trump called 911? When did Trump call anybody?
When negotiations were taking place as far as which files the National Archives wanted back.
Negotiations? They asked for sensitive docs back and he said they were, but lied. How do you negotiate with a liar? They found docs that he said were returned. But, that is ok. Right? It's Donald
So he returned FIFTEEN boxes of files that were requested but the NA wanted more. Between June and and August they didn't get what they wanted(Trump to pull over on their preferred timeline)so they raided Mar A Lago(Pit maneuver). Biden stole a car and also sped through town but since he pulled over after sending the cops after Trump, we can ignore the fact he stole the car and sped.
Only a 102 were found - 17 top secret, 54 secret, and 31 confidential. Yeah, that was nothing...
actual documents of covers?
That is what needs to be determined and if Cannon would ever let the damn case move forward we would know. All we have now is he said, he said. There is enough smoke that I want answers. If Trump didn't break the law, he needs this to be resolved if he is going to be an effective President. If he is guilty, voters need to know before voting. Seems pretty straight forward to me.
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Sam Lowry
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In reply to 4th and Inches • 10:08a, 2/23/24
4th and Inches said:
Osodecentx said:
4th and Inches said:
Osodecentx said:
4th and Inches said:
Osodecentx said:
Doc Holliday said:
HuMcK said:
Because they did a due-diligence search when the Trump case started (so did Mike Pence, and he also found some docs) and voluntarily disclosured what they found. Contrast that with Trump ignoring subpoenaes, deliberately hiding docs from authorities when they searched, and ordering his subordinates to destroy evidence.

The difference is pretty obvious to see for anyone eithout their head up Trump's ass.
Trump had power to declassify.

Biden never did.
Biden does now. Trump doesn't
he can pardon himself too.. his alledged crimes happened before he was president. Trumps alledgely happened after he was president.. see the difference or is the angle too obtuse?
I think POTUS can pardon himself, the language in Constitution seems to be absolute, BUT there is a line of legal reasoning out there that disputes that.

1)Should POTUS have absolute immunity from any prosecution no matter what bad acts he commits? If so, he wouldn't need to pardon himself.
2)Do you believe a POTUS can declassify documents by mere thought? 3)If so, then Biden can do the same thing.
1- overly vague- rephrase
2-no
3-no, senator Biden and VP Biden cant declassify sh.. He did the alledged crime before he was president. He can only pardon himself as president for his prior crimes.
1. I'm trying to reconcile Trump's plea for POTUS absolute immunity with the self pardon possibility. This is a hypothetical because POTUS does not have immunity.
Trump claims POTUS should have absolute immunity from any criminal liability for any acts POTUS may commit. You claim that POTUS can pardon himself. If POTUS is immune for any bad acts, the need for a pardon goes away.

(Absolute immunity? No.. immunity from process crimes? Maybe.. other higher level elected civil servants tend to get leniency unless malicious intent is shown.)


2. I agree with you, but that isn't Trump's position.

(I do know there was a notebook the meadows turned in around the last day of Trumps presidency that should have declassified stuff but that never happened)

3. Assuming Biden can only pardon himself as "as president" (while he is president?), then Biden's alleged crimes were committed before he was president (senator an VP) and he could pardon himself. In the alternative, if Biden is indicted for classified documents he took as a senator an VP, why couldn't he, like Trump, pardon himself?

(He can..)

You tell me that Trump, during his presidency, could pardon himself for crimes committed before he was president. On the question of presidential pardons, how do you distinguish the crimes Biden may have committed from the crimes Trump may have committed?
Bidens was having records he had absolutely no possible arguement in favor of having them as VP or senator.
VPs and senators have access to classified documents. VPs also have declassification power, though arguably less broad than that of presidents.
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4th and Inches
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In reply to Sam Lowry • 10:10a, 2/23/24
Sam Lowry said:
4th and Inches said:
Osodecentx said:
4th and Inches said:
Osodecentx said:
4th and Inches said:
Osodecentx said:
Doc Holliday said:
HuMcK said:
Because they did a due-diligence search when the Trump case started (so did Mike Pence, and he also found some docs) and voluntarily disclosured what they found. Contrast that with Trump ignoring subpoenaes, deliberately hiding docs from authorities when they searched, and ordering his subordinates to destroy evidence.

The difference is pretty obvious to see for anyone eithout their head up Trump's ass.
Trump had power to declassify.

Biden never did.
Biden does now. Trump doesn't
he can pardon himself too.. his alledged crimes happened before he was president. Trumps alledgely happened after he was president.. see the difference or is the angle too obtuse?
I think POTUS can pardon himself, the language in Constitution seems to be absolute, BUT there is a line of legal reasoning out there that disputes that.

1)Should POTUS have absolute immunity from any prosecution no matter what bad acts he commits? If so, he wouldn't need to pardon himself.
2)Do you believe a POTUS can declassify documents by mere thought? 3)If so, then Biden can do the same thing.
1- overly vague- rephrase
2-no
3-no, senator Biden and VP Biden cant declassify sh.. He did the alledged crime before he was president. He can only pardon himself as president for his prior crimes.
1. I'm trying to reconcile Trump's plea for POTUS absolute immunity with the self pardon possibility. This is a hypothetical because POTUS does not have immunity.
Trump claims POTUS should have absolute immunity from any criminal liability for any acts POTUS may commit. You claim that POTUS can pardon himself. If POTUS is immune for any bad acts, the need for a pardon goes away.

(Absolute immunity? No.. immunity from process crimes? Maybe.. other higher level elected civil servants tend to get leniency unless malicious intent is shown.)


2. I agree with you, but that isn't Trump's position.

(I do know there was a notebook the meadows turned in around the last day of Trumps presidency that should have declassified stuff but that never happened)

3. Assuming Biden can only pardon himself as "as president" (while he is president?), then Biden's alleged crimes were committed before he was president (senator an VP) and he could pardon himself. In the alternative, if Biden is indicted for classified documents he took as a senator an VP, why couldn't he, like Trump, pardon himself?

(He can..)

You tell me that Trump, during his presidency, could pardon himself for crimes committed before he was president. On the question of presidential pardons, how do you distinguish the crimes Biden may have committed from the crimes Trump may have committed?
Bidens was having records he had absolutely no possible arguement in favor of having them as VP or senator.
VP's and senators have access to classified documents. VP's also have declassification power, though arguably less broad than that of presidents.
lol
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Porteroso
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In reply to Wangchung • 11:03a, 2/23/24
Wangchung said:
Porteroso said:
Wangchung said:
FLBear5630 said:
Wangchung said:
FLBear5630 said:
Wangchung said:
Osodecentx said:
4th and Inches said:
Osodecentx said:
4th and Inches said:
Osodecentx said:
4th and Inches said:
Osodecentx said:
Doc Holliday said:
HuMcK said:
Because they did a due-diligence search when the Trump case started (so did Mike Pence, and he also found some docs) and voluntarily disclosured what they found. Contrast that with Trump ignoring subpoenaes, deliberately hiding docs from authorities when they searched, and ordering his subordinates to destroy evidence.

The difference is pretty obvious to see for anyone eithout their head up Trump's ass.
Trump had power to declassify.

Biden never did.
Biden does now. Trump doesn't
he can pardon himself too.. his alledged crimes happened before he was president. Trumps alledgely happened after he was president.. see the difference or is the angle too obtuse?
I think POTUS can pardon himself, the language in Constitution seems to be absolute, BUT there is a line of legal reasoning out there that disputes that.

1)Should POTUS have absolute immunity from any prosecution no matter what bad acts he commits? If so, he wouldn't need to pardon himself.
2)Do you believe a POTUS can declassify documents by mere thought? 3)If so, then Biden can do the same thing.
1- overly vague- rephrase
2-no
3-no, senator Biden and VP Biden cant declassify sh.. He did the alledged crime before he was president. He can only pardon himself as president for his prior crimes.
1. I'm trying to reconcile Trump's plea for POTUS absolute immunity with the self pardon possibility. This is a hypothetical because POTUS does not have immunity.
Trump claims POTUS should have absolute immunity from any criminal liability for any acts POTUS may commit. You claim that POTUS can pardon himself. If POTUS is immune for any bad acts, the need for a pardon goes away.

(Absolute immunity? No.. immunity from process crimes? Maybe.. other higher level elected civil servants tend to get leniency unless malicious intent is shown.)


2. I agree with you, but that isn't Trump's position.

(I do know there was a notebook the meadows turned in around the last day of Trumps presidency that should have declassified stuff but that never happened)

3. Assuming Biden can only pardon himself as "as president" (while he is president?), then Biden's alleged crimes were committed before he was president (senator an VP) and he could pardon himself. In the alternative, if Biden is indicted for classified documents he took as a senator an VP, why couldn't he, like Trump, pardon himself?

(He can..)

You tell me that Trump, during his presidency, could pardon himself for crimes committed before he was president. On the question of presidential pardons, how do you distinguish the crimes Biden may have committed from the crimes Trump may have committed?
Trumps were after he had the power to pardon, Biden has the current power.

Trumps are cloudy as its basically a records fight under the PRA.

Bidens was having records he had absolutely no possible arguement in favor of having them as VP or senator.

The final conclusion is GAS sucks at their job as all the elected politicians keep leaving with classified documents


I agree that Biden, as senator & VP, had no right to take docs. If Biden, as POTUS, declassifies documents in question, as it is in his power to do, don't the offenses go away?
If you speed through town but slow down to the speed limit afterwards did you break the law?
Depends on if you get caught. Then if your brother-in-law judge does more than a suspended sentence. Trump doesn't have a brother-in-law that likes him.
You're talking about consequences . The fact is, whether or not you pulled over when caught speeding is irrelevant to the fact you were breaking the law by speeding. Trump sped, Biden sped. Trump called 911 while being pulled over to see if the cop was legit and got pit maneuvered into the ditch. Joe was in a stolen car and speeding but since he pulled over he was let go immediately.
Trump called 911? When did Trump call anybody?
When negotiations were taking place as far as which files the National Archives wanted back.

Is that what you call ignoring the National Archives? Negotiation?
Is that what you calm negotiations that spanned a few months and had multiple boxes returned to the NA? "Ignoring"?

Oh yes, exactly. They said give us stuff back, and he ignored them. There is no negotiating when you have top secrets you aren't supposed to have. You rarely get the chance to give them back, they just come get them. He was treated more than fairly.

This stuff is coming to light on Biden, and the difference is he is a sitting President. After he is done you bet they would treat him the same way.
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Wangchung
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In reply to Porteroso • 11:17a, 2/23/24
Porteroso said:
Wangchung said:
Porteroso said:
Wangchung said:
FLBear5630 said:
Wangchung said:
FLBear5630 said:
Wangchung said:
Osodecentx said:
4th and Inches said:
Osodecentx said:
4th and Inches said:
Osodecentx said:
4th and Inches said:
Osodecentx said:
Doc Holliday said:
HuMcK said:
Because they did a due-diligence search when the Trump case started (so did Mike Pence, and he also found some docs) and voluntarily disclosured what they found. Contrast that with Trump ignoring subpoenaes, deliberately hiding docs from authorities when they searched, and ordering his subordinates to destroy evidence.

The difference is pretty obvious to see for anyone eithout their head up Trump's ass.
Trump had power to declassify.

Biden never did.
Biden does now. Trump doesn't
he can pardon himself too.. his alledged crimes happened before he was president. Trumps alledgely happened after he was president.. see the difference or is the angle too obtuse?
I think POTUS can pardon himself, the language in Constitution seems to be absolute, BUT there is a line of legal reasoning out there that disputes that.

1)Should POTUS have absolute immunity from any prosecution no matter what bad acts he commits? If so, he wouldn't need to pardon himself.
2)Do you believe a POTUS can declassify documents by mere thought? 3)If so, then Biden can do the same thing.
1- overly vague- rephrase
2-no
3-no, senator Biden and VP Biden cant declassify sh.. He did the alledged crime before he was president. He can only pardon himself as president for his prior crimes.
1. I'm trying to reconcile Trump's plea for POTUS absolute immunity with the self pardon possibility. This is a hypothetical because POTUS does not have immunity.
Trump claims POTUS should have absolute immunity from any criminal liability for any acts POTUS may commit. You claim that POTUS can pardon himself. If POTUS is immune for any bad acts, the need for a pardon goes away.

(Absolute immunity? No.. immunity from process crimes? Maybe.. other higher level elected civil servants tend to get leniency unless malicious intent is shown.)


2. I agree with you, but that isn't Trump's position.

(I do know there was a notebook the meadows turned in around the last day of Trumps presidency that should have declassified stuff but that never happened)

3. Assuming Biden can only pardon himself as "as president" (while he is president?), then Biden's alleged crimes were committed before he was president (senator an VP) and he could pardon himself. In the alternative, if Biden is indicted for classified documents he took as a senator an VP, why couldn't he, like Trump, pardon himself?

(He can..)

You tell me that Trump, during his presidency, could pardon himself for crimes committed before he was president. On the question of presidential pardons, how do you distinguish the crimes Biden may have committed from the crimes Trump may have committed?
Trumps were after he had the power to pardon, Biden has the current power.

Trumps are cloudy as its basically a records fight under the PRA.

Bidens was having records he had absolutely no possible arguement in favor of having them as VP or senator.

The final conclusion is GAS sucks at their job as all the elected politicians keep leaving with classified documents


I agree that Biden, as senator & VP, had no right to take docs. If Biden, as POTUS, declassifies documents in question, as it is in his power to do, don't the offenses go away?
If you speed through town but slow down to the speed limit afterwards did you break the law?
Depends on if you get caught. Then if your brother-in-law judge does more than a suspended sentence. Trump doesn't have a brother-in-law that likes him.
You're talking about consequences . The fact is, whether or not you pulled over when caught speeding is irrelevant to the fact you were breaking the law by speeding. Trump sped, Biden sped. Trump called 911 while being pulled over to see if the cop was legit and got pit maneuvered into the ditch. Joe was in a stolen car and speeding but since he pulled over he was let go immediately.
Trump called 911? When did Trump call anybody?
When negotiations were taking place as far as which files the National Archives wanted back.

Is that what you call ignoring the National Archives? Negotiation?
Is that what you calm negotiations that spanned a few months and had multiple boxes returned to the NA? "Ignoring"?

Oh yes, exactly. They said give us stuff back, and he ignored them. There is no negotiating when you have top secrets you aren't supposed to have. You rarely get the chance to give them back, they just come get them. He was treated more than fairly.

This stuff is coming to light on Biden, and the difference is he is a sitting President. After he is done you bet they would treat him the same way.
He declassified them as president. There are ZERO files he isn't supposed to have. Now back to your god, Biden, he never had permission at all. Cops don't let car thieves go simply because they immediately pulled over when caught speeding in the stolen car.
Our vibrations were getting nasty. But why? I was puzzled, frustrated... Had we deteriorated to the level of dumb beasts?

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Oldbear83
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In reply to Sam Lowry • 12:25p, 2/23/24
Sam: "VPs also have declassification power, "

Cite your source, please? I do not believe that is factually accurate.
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FLBear5630
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In reply to Wangchung • 12:58p, 2/23/24
Wangchung said:
Porteroso said:
Wangchung said:
Porteroso said:
Wangchung said:
FLBear5630 said:
Wangchung said:
FLBear5630 said:
Wangchung said:
Osodecentx said:
4th and Inches said:
Osodecentx said:
4th and Inches said:
Osodecentx said:
4th and Inches said:
Osodecentx said:
Doc Holliday said:
HuMcK said:
Because they did a due-diligence search when the Trump case started (so did Mike Pence, and he also found some docs) and voluntarily disclosured what they found. Contrast that with Trump ignoring subpoenaes, deliberately hiding docs from authorities when they searched, and ordering his subordinates to destroy evidence.

The difference is pretty obvious to see for anyone eithout their head up Trump's ass.
Trump had power to declassify.

Biden never did.
Biden does now. Trump doesn't
he can pardon himself too.. his alledged crimes happened before he was president. Trumps alledgely happened after he was president.. see the difference or is the angle too obtuse?
I think POTUS can pardon himself, the language in Constitution seems to be absolute, BUT there is a line of legal reasoning out there that disputes that.

1)Should POTUS have absolute immunity from any prosecution no matter what bad acts he commits? If so, he wouldn't need to pardon himself.
2)Do you believe a POTUS can declassify documents by mere thought? 3)If so, then Biden can do the same thing.
1- overly vague- rephrase
2-no
3-no, senator Biden and VP Biden cant declassify sh.. He did the alledged crime before he was president. He can only pardon himself as president for his prior crimes.
1. I'm trying to reconcile Trump's plea for POTUS absolute immunity with the self pardon possibility. This is a hypothetical because POTUS does not have immunity.
Trump claims POTUS should have absolute immunity from any criminal liability for any acts POTUS may commit. You claim that POTUS can pardon himself. If POTUS is immune for any bad acts, the need for a pardon goes away.

(Absolute immunity? No.. immunity from process crimes? Maybe.. other higher level elected civil servants tend to get leniency unless malicious intent is shown.)


2. I agree with you, but that isn't Trump's position.

(I do know there was a notebook the meadows turned in around the last day of Trumps presidency that should have declassified stuff but that never happened)

3. Assuming Biden can only pardon himself as "as president" (while he is president?), then Biden's alleged crimes were committed before he was president (senator an VP) and he could pardon himself. In the alternative, if Biden is indicted for classified documents he took as a senator an VP, why couldn't he, like Trump, pardon himself?

(He can..)

You tell me that Trump, during his presidency, could pardon himself for crimes committed before he was president. On the question of presidential pardons, how do you distinguish the crimes Biden may have committed from the crimes Trump may have committed?
Trumps were after he had the power to pardon, Biden has the current power.

Trumps are cloudy as its basically a records fight under the PRA.

Bidens was having records he had absolutely no possible arguement in favor of having them as VP or senator.

The final conclusion is GAS sucks at their job as all the elected politicians keep leaving with classified documents


I agree that Biden, as senator & VP, had no right to take docs. If Biden, as POTUS, declassifies documents in question, as it is in his power to do, don't the offenses go away?
If you speed through town but slow down to the speed limit afterwards did you break the law?
Depends on if you get caught. Then if your brother-in-law judge does more than a suspended sentence. Trump doesn't have a brother-in-law that likes him.
You're talking about consequences . The fact is, whether or not you pulled over when caught speeding is irrelevant to the fact you were breaking the law by speeding. Trump sped, Biden sped. Trump called 911 while being pulled over to see if the cop was legit and got pit maneuvered into the ditch. Joe was in a stolen car and speeding but since he pulled over he was let go immediately.
Trump called 911? When did Trump call anybody?
When negotiations were taking place as far as which files the National Archives wanted back.

Is that what you call ignoring the National Archives? Negotiation?
Is that what you calm negotiations that spanned a few months and had multiple boxes returned to the NA? "Ignoring"?

Oh yes, exactly. They said give us stuff back, and he ignored them. There is no negotiating when you have top secrets you aren't supposed to have. You rarely get the chance to give them back, they just come get them. He was treated more than fairly.

This stuff is coming to light on Biden, and the difference is he is a sitting President. After he is done you bet they would treat him the same way.
He declassified them as president. There are ZERO files he isn't supposed to have. Now back to your god, Biden, he never had permission at all. Cops don't let car thieves go simply because they immediately pulled over when caught speeding in the stolen car.
Your comment is accurate to a point. There are 0 files he isn't supposed to have WHILE he is President. After his term is over, he returns to Citizen Trump. He has no authorization to have files that the National Archives tell him to turn over. The whole basis of the President is that a citizen will go to the Capital to serve and then return to being a citizen. Trump, whether he likes it or not, is not special. He is citizen Trump and has no right to access to secure documents beyond his Security Clearence, if he even has one.
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GrowlTowel
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1:14p, 2/23/24
That is certainly one argument. The other is that once he declassified them, the NA loses jurisdiction over them.

I guess the Courts will have to weigh in.

But again, only a banana republic would seek to jail the leader of the opposition party for a process crime and like his "fraud" case, not one single victim has been identified.
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Sam Lowry
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In reply to Oldbear83 • 2:58p, 2/23/24
Oldbear83 said:
Sam: "VPs also have declassification power, "

Cite your source, please? I do not believe that is factually accurate.
Part 3 of Executive Order 13526.
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Sam Lowry
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In reply to Wangchung • 2:59p, 2/23/24
Wangchung said:
Porteroso said:
Wangchung said:
Porteroso said:
Wangchung said:
FLBear5630 said:
Wangchung said:
FLBear5630 said:
Wangchung said:
Osodecentx said:
4th and Inches said:
Osodecentx said:
4th and Inches said:
Osodecentx said:
4th and Inches said:
Osodecentx said:
Doc Holliday said:
HuMcK said:
Because they did a due-diligence search when the Trump case started (so did Mike Pence, and he also found some docs) and voluntarily disclosured what they found. Contrast that with Trump ignoring subpoenaes, deliberately hiding docs from authorities when they searched, and ordering his subordinates to destroy evidence.

The difference is pretty obvious to see for anyone eithout their head up Trump's ass.
Trump had power to declassify.

Biden never did.
Biden does now. Trump doesn't
he can pardon himself too.. his alledged crimes happened before he was president. Trumps alledgely happened after he was president.. see the difference or is the angle too obtuse?
I think POTUS can pardon himself, the language in Constitution seems to be absolute, BUT there is a line of legal reasoning out there that disputes that.

1)Should POTUS have absolute immunity from any prosecution no matter what bad acts he commits? If so, he wouldn't need to pardon himself.
2)Do you believe a POTUS can declassify documents by mere thought? 3)If so, then Biden can do the same thing.
1- overly vague- rephrase
2-no
3-no, senator Biden and VP Biden cant declassify sh.. He did the alledged crime before he was president. He can only pardon himself as president for his prior crimes.
1. I'm trying to reconcile Trump's plea for POTUS absolute immunity with the self pardon possibility. This is a hypothetical because POTUS does not have immunity.
Trump claims POTUS should have absolute immunity from any criminal liability for any acts POTUS may commit. You claim that POTUS can pardon himself. If POTUS is immune for any bad acts, the need for a pardon goes away.

(Absolute immunity? No.. immunity from process crimes? Maybe.. other higher level elected civil servants tend to get leniency unless malicious intent is shown.)


2. I agree with you, but that isn't Trump's position.

(I do know there was a notebook the meadows turned in around the last day of Trumps presidency that should have declassified stuff but that never happened)

3. Assuming Biden can only pardon himself as "as president" (while he is president?), then Biden's alleged crimes were committed before he was president (senator an VP) and he could pardon himself. In the alternative, if Biden is indicted for classified documents he took as a senator an VP, why couldn't he, like Trump, pardon himself?

(He can..)

You tell me that Trump, during his presidency, could pardon himself for crimes committed before he was president. On the question of presidential pardons, how do you distinguish the crimes Biden may have committed from the crimes Trump may have committed?
Trumps were after he had the power to pardon, Biden has the current power.

Trumps are cloudy as its basically a records fight under the PRA.

Bidens was having records he had absolutely no possible arguement in favor of having them as VP or senator.

The final conclusion is GAS sucks at their job as all the elected politicians keep leaving with classified documents


I agree that Biden, as senator & VP, had no right to take docs. If Biden, as POTUS, declassifies documents in question, as it is in his power to do, don't the offenses go away?
If you speed through town but slow down to the speed limit afterwards did you break the law?
Depends on if you get caught. Then if your brother-in-law judge does more than a suspended sentence. Trump doesn't have a brother-in-law that likes him.
You're talking about consequences . The fact is, whether or not you pulled over when caught speeding is irrelevant to the fact you were breaking the law by speeding. Trump sped, Biden sped. Trump called 911 while being pulled over to see if the cop was legit and got pit maneuvered into the ditch. Joe was in a stolen car and speeding but since he pulled over he was let go immediately.
Trump called 911? When did Trump call anybody?
When negotiations were taking place as far as which files the National Archives wanted back.

Is that what you call ignoring the National Archives? Negotiation?
Is that what you calm negotiations that spanned a few months and had multiple boxes returned to the NA? "Ignoring"?

Oh yes, exactly. They said give us stuff back, and he ignored them. There is no negotiating when you have top secrets you aren't supposed to have. You rarely get the chance to give them back, they just come get them. He was treated more than fairly.

This stuff is coming to light on Biden, and the difference is he is a sitting President. After he is done you bet they would treat him the same way.
He declassified them as president.
No, he did not.
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Oldbear83
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In reply to Sam Lowry • 3:23p, 2/23/24
Sam Lowry said:
Oldbear83 said:
Sam: "VPs also have declassification power, "

Cite your source, please? I do not believe that is factually accurate.
Part 3 of Executive Order 13526.
Link please. Sorry but I still doubt the claim, especially that a President can change federal law for his Veep, which seems to be what you are saying.

In any case, Biden had classified docs at his house back when he was a Senator, so I don't see any way to excuse that one, no matter how many times you say 'But Trump?!?'
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Oldbear83
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In reply to Sam Lowry • 3:25p, 2/23/24
Sam Lowry said:
Wangchung said:
Porteroso said:
Wangchung said:
Porteroso said:
Wangchung said:
FLBear5630 said:
Wangchung said:
FLBear5630 said:
Wangchung said:
Osodecentx said:
4th and Inches said:
Osodecentx said:
4th and Inches said:
Osodecentx said:
4th and Inches said:
Osodecentx said:
Doc Holliday said:
HuMcK said:
Because they did a due-diligence search when the Trump case started (so did Mike Pence, and he also found some docs) and voluntarily disclosured what they found. Contrast that with Trump ignoring subpoenaes, deliberately hiding docs from authorities when they searched, and ordering his subordinates to destroy evidence.

The difference is pretty obvious to see for anyone eithout their head up Trump's ass.
Trump had power to declassify.

Biden never did.
Biden does now. Trump doesn't
he can pardon himself too.. his alledged crimes happened before he was president. Trumps alledgely happened after he was president.. see the difference or is the angle too obtuse?
I think POTUS can pardon himself, the language in Constitution seems to be absolute, BUT there is a line of legal reasoning out there that disputes that.

1)Should POTUS have absolute immunity from any prosecution no matter what bad acts he commits? If so, he wouldn't need to pardon himself.
2)Do you believe a POTUS can declassify documents by mere thought? 3)If so, then Biden can do the same thing.
1- overly vague- rephrase
2-no
3-no, senator Biden and VP Biden cant declassify sh.. He did the alledged crime before he was president. He can only pardon himself as president for his prior crimes.
1. I'm trying to reconcile Trump's plea for POTUS absolute immunity with the self pardon possibility. This is a hypothetical because POTUS does not have immunity.
Trump claims POTUS should have absolute immunity from any criminal liability for any acts POTUS may commit. You claim that POTUS can pardon himself. If POTUS is immune for any bad acts, the need for a pardon goes away.

(Absolute immunity? No.. immunity from process crimes? Maybe.. other higher level elected civil servants tend to get leniency unless malicious intent is shown.)


2. I agree with you, but that isn't Trump's position.

(I do know there was a notebook the meadows turned in around the last day of Trumps presidency that should have declassified stuff but that never happened)

3. Assuming Biden can only pardon himself as "as president" (while he is president?), then Biden's alleged crimes were committed before he was president (senator an VP) and he could pardon himself. In the alternative, if Biden is indicted for classified documents he took as a senator an VP, why couldn't he, like Trump, pardon himself?

(He can..)

You tell me that Trump, during his presidency, could pardon himself for crimes committed before he was president. On the question of presidential pardons, how do you distinguish the crimes Biden may have committed from the crimes Trump may have committed?
Trumps were after he had the power to pardon, Biden has the current power.

Trumps are cloudy as its basically a records fight under the PRA.

Bidens was having records he had absolutely no possible arguement in favor of having them as VP or senator.

The final conclusion is GAS sucks at their job as all the elected politicians keep leaving with classified documents


I agree that Biden, as senator & VP, had no right to take docs. If Biden, as POTUS, declassifies documents in question, as it is in his power to do, don't the offenses go away?
If you speed through town but slow down to the speed limit afterwards did you break the law?
Depends on if you get caught. Then if your brother-in-law judge does more than a suspended sentence. Trump doesn't have a brother-in-law that likes him.
You're talking about consequences . The fact is, whether or not you pulled over when caught speeding is irrelevant to the fact you were breaking the law by speeding. Trump sped, Biden sped. Trump called 911 while being pulled over to see if the cop was legit and got pit maneuvered into the ditch. Joe was in a stolen car and speeding but since he pulled over he was let go immediately.
Trump called 911? When did Trump call anybody?
When negotiations were taking place as far as which files the National Archives wanted back.

Is that what you call ignoring the National Archives? Negotiation?
Is that what you calm negotiations that spanned a few months and had multiple boxes returned to the NA? "Ignoring"?

Oh yes, exactly. They said give us stuff back, and he ignored them. There is no negotiating when you have top secrets you aren't supposed to have. You rarely get the chance to give them back, they just come get them. He was treated more than fairly.

This stuff is coming to light on Biden, and the difference is he is a sitting President. After he is done you bet they would treat him the same way.
He declassified them as president.
No, he did not.
Your proof?
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Osodecentx
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In reply to Sam Lowry • 3:59p, 2/23/24
Sam Lowry said:
Wangchung said:
Porteroso said:
Wangchung said:
Porteroso said:
Wangchung said:
FLBear5630 said:
Wangchung said:
FLBear5630 said:
Wangchung said:
Osodecentx said:
4th and Inches said:
Osodecentx said:
4th and Inches said:
Osodecentx said:
4th and Inches said:
Osodecentx said:
Doc Holliday said:
HuMcK said:
Because they did a due-diligence search when the Trump case started (so did Mike Pence, and he also found some docs) and voluntarily disclosured what they found. Contrast that with Trump ignoring subpoenaes, deliberately hiding docs from authorities when they searched, and ordering his subordinates to destroy evidence.

The difference is pretty obvious to see for anyone eithout their head up Trump's ass.
Trump had power to declassify.

Biden never did.
Biden does now. Trump doesn't
he can pardon himself too.. his alledged crimes happened before he was president. Trumps alledgely happened after he was president.. see the difference or is the angle too obtuse?
I think POTUS can pardon himself, the language in Constitution seems to be absolute, BUT there is a line of legal reasoning out there that disputes that.

1)Should POTUS have absolute immunity from any prosecution no matter what bad acts he commits? If so, he wouldn't need to pardon himself.
2)Do you believe a POTUS can declassify documents by mere thought? 3)If so, then Biden can do the same thing.
1- overly vague- rephrase
2-no
3-no, senator Biden and VP Biden cant declassify sh.. He did the alledged crime before he was president. He can only pardon himself as president for his prior crimes.
1. I'm trying to reconcile Trump's plea for POTUS absolute immunity with the self pardon possibility. This is a hypothetical because POTUS does not have immunity.
Trump claims POTUS should have absolute immunity from any criminal liability for any acts POTUS may commit. You claim that POTUS can pardon himself. If POTUS is immune for any bad acts, the need for a pardon goes away.

(Absolute immunity? No.. immunity from process crimes? Maybe.. other higher level elected civil servants tend to get leniency unless malicious intent is shown.)


2. I agree with you, but that isn't Trump's position.

(I do know there was a notebook the meadows turned in around the last day of Trumps presidency that should have declassified stuff but that never happened)

3. Assuming Biden can only pardon himself as "as president" (while he is president?), then Biden's alleged crimes were committed before he was president (senator an VP) and he could pardon himself. In the alternative, if Biden is indicted for classified documents he took as a senator an VP, why couldn't he, like Trump, pardon himself?

(He can..)

You tell me that Trump, during his presidency, could pardon himself for crimes committed before he was president. On the question of presidential pardons, how do you distinguish the crimes Biden may have committed from the crimes Trump may have committed?
Trumps were after he had the power to pardon, Biden has the current power.

Trumps are cloudy as its basically a records fight under the PRA.

Bidens was having records he had absolutely no possible arguement in favor of having them as VP or senator.

The final conclusion is GAS sucks at their job as all the elected politicians keep leaving with classified documents


I agree that Biden, as senator & VP, had no right to take docs. If Biden, as POTUS, declassifies documents in question, as it is in his power to do, don't the offenses go away?
If you speed through town but slow down to the speed limit afterwards did you break the law?
Depends on if you get caught. Then if your brother-in-law judge does more than a suspended sentence. Trump doesn't have a brother-in-law that likes him.
You're talking about consequences . The fact is, whether or not you pulled over when caught speeding is irrelevant to the fact you were breaking the law by speeding. Trump sped, Biden sped. Trump called 911 while being pulled over to see if the cop was legit and got pit maneuvered into the ditch. Joe was in a stolen car and speeding but since he pulled over he was let go immediately.
Trump called 911? When did Trump call anybody?
When negotiations were taking place as far as which files the National Archives wanted back.

Is that what you call ignoring the National Archives? Negotiation?
Is that what you calm negotiations that spanned a few months and had multiple boxes returned to the NA? "Ignoring"?

Oh yes, exactly. They said give us stuff back, and he ignored them. There is no negotiating when you have top secrets you aren't supposed to have. You rarely get the chance to give them back, they just come get them. He was treated more than fairly.

This stuff is coming to light on Biden, and the difference is he is a sitting President. After he is done you bet they would treat him the same way.
He declassified them as president.
No, he did not.
Correct. There is no proof that he declassified top secret documents at MAL. A president can't declassify by mere thought
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Sam Lowry
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In reply to Oldbear83 • 4:07p, 2/23/24
Oldbear83 said:
Sam Lowry said:
Oldbear83 said:
Sam: "VPs also have declassification power, "

Cite your source, please? I do not believe that is factually accurate.
Part 3 of Executive Order 13526.
Link please. Sorry but I still doubt the claim, especially that a President can change federal law for his Veep, which seems to be what you are saying.

In any case, Biden had classified docs at his house back when he was a Senator, so I don't see any way to excuse that one, no matter how many times you say 'But Trump?!?'
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2023/01/17/fact-check-biden-had-authority-declassify-vice-president/11065345002/
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Sam Lowry
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In reply to Oldbear83 • 4:20p, 2/23/24
Oldbear83 said:
Sam Lowry said:
Wangchung said:
Porteroso said:
Wangchung said:
Porteroso said:
Wangchung said:
FLBear5630 said:
Wangchung said:
FLBear5630 said:
Wangchung said:
Osodecentx said:
4th and Inches said:
Osodecentx said:
4th and Inches said:
Osodecentx said:
4th and Inches said:
Osodecentx said:
Doc Holliday said:
HuMcK said:
Because they did a due-diligence search when the Trump case started (so did Mike Pence, and he also found some docs) and voluntarily disclosured what they found. Contrast that with Trump ignoring subpoenaes, deliberately hiding docs from authorities when they searched, and ordering his subordinates to destroy evidence.

The difference is pretty obvious to see for anyone eithout their head up Trump's ass.
Trump had power to declassify.

Biden never did.
Biden does now. Trump doesn't
he can pardon himself too.. his alledged crimes happened before he was president. Trumps alledgely happened after he was president.. see the difference or is the angle too obtuse?
I think POTUS can pardon himself, the language in Constitution seems to be absolute, BUT there is a line of legal reasoning out there that disputes that.

1)Should POTUS have absolute immunity from any prosecution no matter what bad acts he commits? If so, he wouldn't need to pardon himself.
2)Do you believe a POTUS can declassify documents by mere thought? 3)If so, then Biden can do the same thing.
1- overly vague- rephrase
2-no
3-no, senator Biden and VP Biden cant declassify sh.. He did the alledged crime before he was president. He can only pardon himself as president for his prior crimes.
1. I'm trying to reconcile Trump's plea for POTUS absolute immunity with the self pardon possibility. This is a hypothetical because POTUS does not have immunity.
Trump claims POTUS should have absolute immunity from any criminal liability for any acts POTUS may commit. You claim that POTUS can pardon himself. If POTUS is immune for any bad acts, the need for a pardon goes away.

(Absolute immunity? No.. immunity from process crimes? Maybe.. other higher level elected civil servants tend to get leniency unless malicious intent is shown.)


2. I agree with you, but that isn't Trump's position.

(I do know there was a notebook the meadows turned in around the last day of Trumps presidency that should have declassified stuff but that never happened)

3. Assuming Biden can only pardon himself as "as president" (while he is president?), then Biden's alleged crimes were committed before he was president (senator an VP) and he could pardon himself. In the alternative, if Biden is indicted for classified documents he took as a senator an VP, why couldn't he, like Trump, pardon himself?

(He can..)

You tell me that Trump, during his presidency, could pardon himself for crimes committed before he was president. On the question of presidential pardons, how do you distinguish the crimes Biden may have committed from the crimes Trump may have committed?
Trumps were after he had the power to pardon, Biden has the current power.

Trumps are cloudy as its basically a records fight under the PRA.

Bidens was having records he had absolutely no possible arguement in favor of having them as VP or senator.

The final conclusion is GAS sucks at their job as all the elected politicians keep leaving with classified documents


I agree that Biden, as senator & VP, had no right to take docs. If Biden, as POTUS, declassifies documents in question, as it is in his power to do, don't the offenses go away?
If you speed through town but slow down to the speed limit afterwards did you break the law?
Depends on if you get caught. Then if your brother-in-law judge does more than a suspended sentence. Trump doesn't have a brother-in-law that likes him.
You're talking about consequences . The fact is, whether or not you pulled over when caught speeding is irrelevant to the fact you were breaking the law by speeding. Trump sped, Biden sped. Trump called 911 while being pulled over to see if the cop was legit and got pit maneuvered into the ditch. Joe was in a stolen car and speeding but since he pulled over he was let go immediately.
Trump called 911? When did Trump call anybody?
When negotiations were taking place as far as which files the National Archives wanted back.

Is that what you call ignoring the National Archives? Negotiation?
Is that what you calm negotiations that spanned a few months and had multiple boxes returned to the NA? "Ignoring"?

Oh yes, exactly. They said give us stuff back, and he ignored them. There is no negotiating when you have top secrets you aren't supposed to have. You rarely get the chance to give them back, they just come get them. He was treated more than fairly.

This stuff is coming to light on Biden, and the difference is he is a sitting President. After he is done you bet they would treat him the same way.
He declassified them as president.
No, he did not.
Your proof?
The judge set a deadline, and his lawyers produced no evidence of it. Trump also admitted on tape that he didn't declassify at least some of it.
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