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Waco siege
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Last: 3 hrs ago by cowboycwr
And they could have just gone to Barnes and Noble and picked him up there any time. Or had the sheriff bring him in which he would definitely have done.
Rarely in history has something been as poorly done. Cost the lives of numerous people and caused the OKC bombing.
Everyone involved should have been fired at minimum.
They took bad intel, fed that intel up the chain of command and GROSSLY underestimated the resolve of the Davidians.
The situation was 100% avoidable and is a huge stain on the intelligence services.
Rarely in history has something been as poorly done. Cost the lives of numerous people and caused the OKC bombing.
Everyone involved should have been fired at minimum.
They took bad intel, fed that intel up the chain of command and GROSSLY underestimated the resolve of the Davidians.
The situation was 100% avoidable and is a huge stain on the intelligence services.
Today in 1993, near Waco, TX the ATF attempted to storm the church compound (Mount Carmel Center) of the Branch Davidian sect (a split from the 7th Day Adventists). The church members defended themselves, the ATF agents were repulsed and a 51-day long siege ensued. pic.twitter.com/frpSrUCV1g
— Bones of LaSalle 💀⚜️ (@bonesoflasalle) March 1, 2025
Sorry I don't get this idolization of a pedophile. The thing was poorly executed but they were serving a warrant. 99% of the time when someone shoots back at law enforcement serving a warrant the public response is something like "criminals going to criminal." But here it is all DK was just protecting himself nonsense.
cowboycwr said:
Sorry I don't get this idolization of a pedophile. The thing was poorly executed but they were serving a warrant.
No one is idolizing him
He was a big piece of trash and a terrible man
But people do demand their very power Federal government act with some restraint and intelligence.
Arrest the nutbag when he went into Waco to shop…..don't kill dozens of kids.
And don't let Janet Reno and Hillary Clinton push your department into a stupid show of force to "crush domestic terrorists"
When it was in reality a bunch of mostly harmless millennialists religious nuts who would take a armed raid as the end of the world and go bananas
Another illustration of why Bill, Hillary & the rest of the fascists cannot be trusted with power.
“Incline my heart to your testimonies, and not to selfish gain!”
Psalm 119:36
Psalm 119:36
cowboycwr said:
Sorry I don't get this idolization of a pedophile. The thing was poorly executed but they were serving a warrant. 99% of the time when someone shoots back at law enforcement serving a warrant the public response is something like "criminals going to criminal." But here it is all DK was just protecting himself nonsense.
I don't think I've seen anyone here idolizing him.
1) he literally held bible study at B&N and could have been picked up there virtually any time they wanted
2) he was friendly with the sheriffs office as law enforcement was familiar with him and the entire compound. He would have come in on his own.
3) he was in Waco and Bellmead all the time.
There was no reason in the world people needed to die. It was terrible decision making on so many levels. Fresh off of Ruby Ridge the Davidians is what happens when hubris gets in the way.
As noted in my prior post it also further disenfranchises Timothy McVeigh and is a direct cause of the 168 lives lost in OKC.
I'm not absolving the Davidians or McVeigh but the situation in Waco was 100%, absolutely, without any shadow of a doubt avoidable.
cowboycwr said:
Sorry I don't get this idolization of a pedophile. The thing was poorly executed but they were serving a warrant. 99% of the time when someone shoots back at law enforcement serving a warrant the public response is something like "criminals going to criminal." But here it is all DK was just protecting himself nonsense.
No one is defending Koresh.
I worked at the TV station that filmed the raid. I talked with the reporter and the camera man.
They were tipped off by the ATF. The agents wanted them there because they wanted the world to be scared of them. No one ever heard of the ATF before the Davidian raid.
And the warrants had nothing to do with pedophile charges. The ATF doesn't enforce those kinds of laws. The warrants were for unlawful guns. The pedophile stories came out later, too try and justify the government actions.
The cameraman said he was shocked when the agents opened fire before the opened the door. It happened so fast that they didn't even have time to get the camera rolling. Then the ATF agents stole the TV station SUV and threatened to kill the reporter and the cameraman.
All of the men who lived in the compound would travel into Waco for work everyday. They could have raided the compound at noon, when nobody would have fought back. The ATF wanted a shootout, just like Ruby Ridge. They were trying to make a name for themselves. It was also part off the overall push for more gun control laws.
The Davidian fiasco was 100% government created. If they were really there to save the kids from harm, they wouldn't have started a shootout and ended up killing all the kids.
Reno and the Clinton's will get justice when they burn in hell for what they did in Waco and in other places.
The Davidian anniversary will always serve as a reminder of just how evil the government can be, if we do not stay vigilant. Never trust politicians. Always keep authority & accountability in the hands of the people.
**** the ATF forever!
It was nothing more than a flex of "power" after Ruby Ridge. They had egg on their face and they thought they would show force and people all over would see they were strong.
It's a joke that no one lost their career, pension or freedom over it.
It's a joke that no one lost their career, pension or freedom over it.
The sad thing is that even though smart people saw this siege needlessly playout, and they saw how corrupt Hillary was and Biden was with zero repercussions, and they've just recently seen the FBI be weaponized against Trump AND normal everyday parents, gun enthusiasts, Catholics, and PTAs, etc, people will still not believe that the government is capable of being that corrupt. They just don't get it and never will, because the TV hasn't told them to believe it. I mean those are just a few examples. There are so many more that happened in our lifetime.ShooterTX said:cowboycwr said:
Sorry I don't get this idolization of a pedophile. The thing was poorly executed but they were serving a warrant. 99% of the time when someone shoots back at law enforcement serving a warrant the public response is something like "criminals going to criminal." But here it is all DK was just protecting himself nonsense.
No one is defending Koresh.
I worked at the TV station that filmed the raid. I talked with the reporter and the camera man.
They were tipped off by the ATF. The agents wanted them there because they wanted the world to be scared of them. No one ever heard of the ATF before the Davidian raid.
And the warrants had nothing to do with pedophile charges. The ATF doesn't enforce those kinds of laws. The warrants were for unlawful guns. The pedophile stories came out later, too try and justify the government actions.
The cameraman said he was shocked when the agents opened fire before the opened the door. It happened so fast that they didn't even have time to get the camera rolling. Then the ATF agents stole the TV station SUV and threatened to kill the reporter and the cameraman.
All of the men who lived in the compound would travel into Waco for work everyday. They could have raided the compound at noon, when nobody would have fought back. The ATF wanted a shootout, just like Ruby Ridge. They were trying to make a name for themselves. It was also part off the overall push for more gun control laws.
The Davidian fiasco was 100% government created. If they were really there to save the kids from harm, they wouldn't have started a shootout and ended up killing all the kids.
Reno and the Clinton's will get justice when they burn in hell for what they did in Waco and in other places.
The Davidian anniversary will always serve as a reminder of just how evil the government can be, if we do not stay vigilant. Never trust politicians. Always keep authority & accountability in the hands of the people.
**** the ATF forever!
Not shocking ... the ATF has the reputation of being the cowboy, fringe agency around hiring, so all these cowboys wanted to put on their riot gear and terrorize some weirdos. And the leadership wanted to to a staged TV event to drive awareness and money. It was terrible anyone dies, but the ATF brought it on itself. Especially know their apocalyptical theology, they ATF had to know the Davidians would likely fight back and that Koresh's insanity was coming true. Stupidity all around.ShooterTX said:cowboycwr said:
Sorry I don't get this idolization of a pedophile. The thing was poorly executed but they were serving a warrant. 99% of the time when someone shoots back at law enforcement serving a warrant the public response is something like "criminals going to criminal." But here it is all DK was just protecting himself nonsense.
No one is defending Koresh.
I worked at the TV station that filmed the raid. I talked with the reporter and the camera man.
They were tipped off by the ATF. The agents wanted them there because they wanted the world to be scared of them. No one ever heard of the ATF before the Davidian raid.
And the warrants had nothing to do with pedophile charges. The ATF doesn't enforce those kinds of laws. The warrants were for unlawful guns. The pedophile stories came out later, too try and justify the government actions.
The cameraman said he was shocked when the agents opened fire before the opened the door. It happened so fast that they didn't even have time to get the camera rolling. Then the ATF agents stole the TV station SUV and threatened to kill the reporter and the cameraman.
All of the men who lived in the compound would travel into Waco for work everyday. They could have raided the compound at noon, when nobody would have fought back. The ATF wanted a shootout, just like Ruby Ridge. They were trying to make a name for themselves. It was also part off the overall push for more gun control laws.
The Davidian fiasco was 100% government created. If they were really there to save the kids from harm, they wouldn't have started a shootout and ended up killing all the kids.
Reno and the Clinton's will get justice when they burn in hell for what they did in Waco and in other places.
The Davidian anniversary will always serve as a reminder of just how evil the government can be, if we do not stay vigilant. Never trust politicians. Always keep authority & accountability in the hands of the people.
**** the ATF forever!
I will say it again but change one word since so many of you want to hang on that.
I don't get this DEFENDING of a pedophile, cult, armed terrorist organization.
The operation was a horrible over reach by the government.
But the davidians did NOT defend themselves. You cannot defend yourself from law enforcement conducting a warrant.
The davidians killed those kids.
I don't get this DEFENDING of a pedophile, cult, armed terrorist organization.
The operation was a horrible over reach by the government.
But the davidians did NOT defend themselves. You cannot defend yourself from law enforcement conducting a warrant.
The davidians killed those kids.
The ATF had watched too many Cops shows. (And I had friends on both sides.)
cowboycwr said:
I will say it again but change one word since so many of you want to hang on that.
I don't get this DEFENDING of a pedophile, cult, armed terrorist organization.
The operation was a horrible over reach by the government.
But the davidians did NOT defend themselves. You cannot defend yourself from law enforcement conducting a warrant.
The davidians killed those kids.
Wrong
If the ATF never shows up there and simply picks him up in town no one dies.
Once they are there you can make the case David is responsible but they never needed to be there in the first place. They could have accomplished what they wanted without any shots being fired ever.
The way this went down is a direct result of being embarrassed at Ruby Ridge.
nein51 said:cowboycwr said:
I will say it again but change one word since so many of you want to hang on that.
I don't get this DEFENDING of a pedophile, cult, armed terrorist organization.
The operation was a horrible over reach by the government.
But the davidians did NOT defend themselves. You cannot defend yourself from law enforcement conducting a warrant.
The davidians killed those kids.
Wrong
If the ATF never shows up there and simply picks him up in town no one dies.
Once they are there you can make the case David is responsible but they never needed to be there in the first place. They could have accomplished what they wanted without any shots being fired ever.
The way this went down is a direct result of being embarrassed at Ruby Ridge.
Wrong.
Getting him in town does not get the evidence (weapons).
Again more defense of the evil man to attack the government.
I just don't get it.
Yep, ATF could storm an orphanage with guns blazing to arrest one guy that they could have picked up when he drove to town every day. No reason we need our LEO's to actually think about collateral damage. /scowboycwr said:
I will say it again but change one word since so many of you want to hang on that.
I don't get this DEFENDING of a pedophile, cult, armed terrorist organization.
The operation was a horrible over reach by the government.
But the davidians did NOT defend themselves. You cannot defend yourself from law enforcement conducting a warrant.
The davidians killed those kids.
TinFoilHatPreacherBear said:Yep, ATF could storm an orphanage with guns blazing to arrest one guy that they could have picked up when he drove to town every day. No reason we need our LEO's to actually think about collateral damage. /scowboycwr said:
I will say it again but change one word since so many of you want to hang on that.
I don't get this DEFENDING of a pedophile, cult, armed terrorist organization.
The operation was a horrible over reach by the government.
But the davidians did NOT defend themselves. You cannot defend yourself from law enforcement conducting a warrant.
The davidians killed those kids.
Lol. Not what happened.
1. It was not an orphanage.
2. It wasn't guns blazing.
3. Getting him in town does not get the evidence.
More defense of the evil man simply because the ATF screwed this up.
cowboycwr said:
I will say it again but change one word since so many of you want to hang on that.
I don't get this DEFENDING of a pedophile, cult, armed terrorist organization.
The operation was a horrible over reach by the government.
But the davidians did NOT defend themselves. You cannot defend yourself from law enforcement conducting a warrant.
The davidians killed those kids.
No one is defending a pedophile or a cult.
The fact that you are trying to label them as a terrorist organization, just shows that you have fully consumed the media Kool Aid.
They NEVER acted in any manner that could be interpreted as terrorism. At worst, the Davidians were an occasional nuisance. Sometimes Koresh would harass people in the parking lot as they were leaving church on Sunday. He would try to engage people in debates about theology. The police or sheriff would have to escort him off of church property. He never engaged in any form of terrorism.
Why are you defending a morally bankrupt, totalitarian government agency that killed dozens of people including children, by their totally unnecessary use of force? The raid on the Davidian Compound was 100% unnecessary. At best, the ATF acted with incompetence... at worst (and most likely) it was a planned violent confrontation that blew up in their faces.
Either way, it was the ATF actions that eventually lead to the deaths of those kids. If the ATF had done things the right way and arrested the Davidians outside of the compound... all of those kids would still be alive today.
**** the ATF forever!
No one has defended Koresh in the slightest. Pretty much everyone thinks the ATF screwed it up. Children burned/suffocated to death needlessly. They could have gotten the evidence after getting the cult leader. Seems like basic police work. I think you're intentionally being obtuse.cowboycwr said:TinFoilHatPreacherBear said:Yep, ATF could storm an orphanage with guns blazing to arrest one guy that they could have picked up when he drove to town every day. No reason we need our LEO's to actually think about collateral damage. /scowboycwr said:
I will say it again but change one word since so many of you want to hang on that.
I don't get this DEFENDING of a pedophile, cult, armed terrorist organization.
The operation was a horrible over reach by the government.
But the davidians did NOT defend themselves. You cannot defend yourself from law enforcement conducting a warrant.
The davidians killed those kids.
Lol. Not what happened.
1. It was not an orphanage.
2. It wasn't guns blazing.
3. Getting him in town does not get the evidence.
More defense of the evil man simply because the ATF screwed this up.
cowboycwr said:nein51 said:cowboycwr said:
I will say it again but change one word since so many of you want to hang on that.
I don't get this DEFENDING of a pedophile, cult, armed terrorist organization.
The operation was a horrible over reach by the government.
But the davidians did NOT defend themselves. You cannot defend yourself from law enforcement conducting a warrant.
The davidians killed those kids.
Wrong
If the ATF never shows up there and simply picks him up in town no one dies.
Once they are there you can make the case David is responsible but they never needed to be there in the first place. They could have accomplished what they wanted without any shots being fired ever.
The way this went down is a direct result of being embarrassed at Ruby Ridge.
Wrong.
Getting him in town does not get the evidence (weapons).
Again more defense of the evil man to attack the government.
I just don't get it.
You're not going to be convinced so I'm done wasting my breath.
David was a weird dude, a cult leader and was clearly doing things with very young women that will land him in hell (if not for the whole im jesus thing).
All the men in that complex would have been arrested away from the women and children and guns which would have led to a different outcome…IF YOU EVEN BELIEVE THEY SHOULD HAVE BEEN THERE FOR THE GUNS IN THE FIRST PLACE.
cowboycwr said:TinFoilHatPreacherBear said:Yep, ATF could storm an orphanage with guns blazing to arrest one guy that they could have picked up when he drove to town every day. No reason we need our LEO's to actually think about collateral damage. /scowboycwr said:
I will say it again but change one word since so many of you want to hang on that.
I don't get this DEFENDING of a pedophile, cult, armed terrorist organization.
The operation was a horrible over reach by the government.
But the davidians did NOT defend themselves. You cannot defend yourself from law enforcement conducting a warrant.
The davidians killed those kids.
Lol. Not what happened.
1. It was not an orphanage.
2. It wasn't guns blazing.
3. Getting him in town does not get the evidence.
More defense of the evil man simply because the ATF screwed this up.
For the last time...
NO ONE IS DEFENDING DAVID KORESH!!
How the **** can you be so dense!
David Koresh was a cult leader. He violated the law. He souks have been arrested and imprisoned. Maybe a few of the others in the cult also needed to be arrested.
The reality is that almost ALL of the men and most of the women worked in Waco. With that many agents, they cloud have easily worked with the sheriff and Waco PD to coordinate teams to arrest them all in a matter of hours.
The women & children who would be left at the compound would not have put up a fight, nor would they have been able to destroy the illegal weapons.
The ATF wanted a shootout. That's why they took steps to insure that the TV reporter & cameraman would be there.
If the ATF had truly wanted to protect lives, they would NEVER have assaulted the compound in this manner.
They thought they were going to kick ass, but they got their assess handed to them instead.
NO ONE IS DEFENDING KORESH! WE ARE CONDEMNING THE ATF FOR THEIR ACTIONS THAT DIRECTLY LEAD TO THE DEATHS OF INNOCENT CHILDREN!
ShooterTX said:cowboycwr said:
I will say it again but change one word since so many of you want to hang on that.
I don't get this DEFENDING of a pedophile, cult, armed terrorist organization.
The operation was a horrible over reach by the government.
But the davidians did NOT defend themselves. You cannot defend yourself from law enforcement conducting a warrant.
The davidians killed those kids.
No one is defending a pedophile or a cult.
The fact that you are trying to label them as a terrorist organization, just shows that you have fully consumed the media Kool Aid.
They NEVER acted in any manner that could be interpreted as terrorism. At worst, the Davidians were an occasional nuisance. Sometimes Koresh would harass people in the parking lot as they were leaving church on Sunday. He would try to engage people in debates about theology. The police or sheriff would have to escort him off of church property. He never engaged in any form of terrorism.
Why are you defending a morally bankrupt, totalitarian government agency that killed dozens of people including children, by their totally unnecessary use of force? The raid on the Davidian Compound was 100% unnecessary. At best, the ATF acted with incompetence... at worst (and most likely) it was a planned violent confrontation that blew up in their faces.
Either way, it was the ATF actions that eventually lead to the deaths of those kids. If the ATF had done things the right way and arrested the Davidians outside of the compound... all of those kids would still be alive today.
**** the ATF forever!
Yes people (like you) are defending him by refusing to admit to what he and the other davidians did.
1. A person cannot "defend" themself by shooting at law enforcement conducting a search warrant.
2. The davidians killed themselves and the children
3. I have not defended the government. In fact if you go back to my first post on this thread you would see I said they screwed up.
4. What would you call a group of Americans that gather weapons for the SOLE purpose of attacking "evil government agents" (words of koresh)?
5. The fires were started by the davidians to kill themselves and the children.
6 sure the siege never should have happened, should have been handled differently once it started but it was not the government that killed the people.
7. The atf wasn't even in charge of the siege.
TinFoilHatPreacherBear said:No one has defended Koresh in the slightest. Pretty much everyone thinks the ATF screwed it up. Children burned/suffocated to death needlessly. They could have gotten the evidence after getting the cult leader. Seems like basic police work. I think you're intentionally being obtuse.cowboycwr said:TinFoilHatPreacherBear said:Yep, ATF could storm an orphanage with guns blazing to arrest one guy that they could have picked up when he drove to town every day. No reason we need our LEO's to actually think about collateral damage. /scowboycwr said:
I will say it again but change one word since so many of you want to hang on that.
I don't get this DEFENDING of a pedophile, cult, armed terrorist organization.
The operation was a horrible over reach by the government.
But the davidians did NOT defend themselves. You cannot defend yourself from law enforcement conducting a warrant.
The davidians killed those kids.
Lol. Not what happened.
1. It was not an orphanage.
2. It wasn't guns blazing.
3. Getting him in town does not get the evidence.
More defense of the evil man simply because the ATF screwed this up.
Yes the are defending him. If they are not defending him what would you call laying ALL the blame on the government?
How would they get the evidence from the compound after they arrested Koresh???? Oh that's right…. They would need to conduct a search warrant.
nein51 said:cowboycwr said:nein51 said:cowboycwr said:
I will say it again but change one word since so many of you want to hang on that.
I don't get this DEFENDING of a pedophile, cult, armed terrorist organization.
The operation was a horrible over reach by the government.
But the davidians did NOT defend themselves. You cannot defend yourself from law enforcement conducting a warrant.
The davidians killed those kids.
Wrong
If the ATF never shows up there and simply picks him up in town no one dies.
Once they are there you can make the case David is responsible but they never needed to be there in the first place. They could have accomplished what they wanted without any shots being fired ever.
The way this went down is a direct result of being embarrassed at Ruby Ridge.
Wrong.
Getting him in town does not get the evidence (weapons).
Again more defense of the evil man to attack the government.
I just don't get it.
You're not going to be convinced so I'm done wasting my breath.
David was a weird dude, a cult leader and was clearly doing things with very young women that will land him in hell (if not for the whole im jesus thing).
All the men in that complex would have been arrested away from the women and children and guns which would have led to a different outcome…IF YOU EVEN BELIEVE THEY SHOULD HAVE BEEN THERE FOR THE GUNS IN THE FIRST PLACE.
Arrest for what? They need the evidence which was at the compound. How do they get it if they can't go there because there were women and children????
I did not realize police do not conduct search warrants and raids on buildings that have women and children.
Yes having illegal weapons is a reason to conduct a search warrants/ arrest someone.
ShooterTX said:cowboycwr said:TinFoilHatPreacherBear said:Yep, ATF could storm an orphanage with guns blazing to arrest one guy that they could have picked up when he drove to town every day. No reason we need our LEO's to actually think about collateral damage. /scowboycwr said:
I will say it again but change one word since so many of you want to hang on that.
I don't get this DEFENDING of a pedophile, cult, armed terrorist organization.
The operation was a horrible over reach by the government.
But the davidians did NOT defend themselves. You cannot defend yourself from law enforcement conducting a warrant.
The davidians killed those kids.
Lol. Not what happened.
1. It was not an orphanage.
2. It wasn't guns blazing.
3. Getting him in town does not get the evidence.
More defense of the evil man simply because the ATF screwed this up.
For the last time...
NO ONE IS DEFENDING DAVID KORESH!!
How the **** can you be so dense!
David Koresh was a cult leader. He violated the law. He souks have been arrested and imprisoned. Maybe a few of the others in the cult also needed to be arrested.
The reality is that almost ALL of the men and most of the women worked in Waco. With that many agents, they cloud have easily worked with the sheriff and Waco PD to coordinate teams to arrest them all in a matter of hours.
The women & children who would be left at the compound would not have put up a fight, nor would they have been able to destroy the illegal weapons.
The ATF wanted a shootout. That's why they took steps to insure that the TV reporter & cameraman would be there.
If the ATF had truly wanted to protect lives, they would NEVER have assaulted the compound in this manner.
They thought they were going to kick ass, but they got their assess handed to them instead.
NO ONE IS DEFENDING KORESH! WE ARE CONDEMNING THE ATF FOR THEIR ACTIONS THAT DIRECTLY LEAD TO THE DEATHS OF INNOCENT CHILDREN!
Go back to the third post in this thread.
It is a post from X/Twitter.
It claims the davidians "defended" themselves.
But yeah tell me again "no one is defending him"
The davidians killed themselves. They killed the kids.
No one has tried to focus on that.
They just want to place the blame on the ATF. Which wasn't even in charge of the siege.
We had a rental store on 25th Street and rented Koresh a Ford 3500 tractor. Then the event happened and we got a call from the ATF asking if they could keep the tractor out there to use. Dad sent a couple of guys out there to service it. They pulled up and the ATF were laying out rows of weapons they had found along with a 5 gallon bucket of what appeared to be grenades of some sort. They got to the tractor and it had bullet holes in it.
They serviced it and some ATF guys came by to learn how to use the front end loader. Our guys asked what they were going to do with it, they said "gotta move some bodies"
Once we got it back, Dad repaired it. I think he had to change out one of the front arms that had a bullet hole in it, along with the engine cowling. ATF sent him a 'Thank You' letter he put up on the wall at the office.
They serviced it and some ATF guys came by to learn how to use the front end loader. Our guys asked what they were going to do with it, they said "gotta move some bodies"
Once we got it back, Dad repaired it. I think he had to change out one of the front arms that had a bullet hole in it, along with the engine cowling. ATF sent him a 'Thank You' letter he put up on the wall at the office.
Facebook Groups at; Memories of: Dallas, Texas, Football in Texas, Texas Music, Through a Texas Lens and also Dallas History Guild. Come visit!
cowboycwr said:ShooterTX said:cowboycwr said:TinFoilHatPreacherBear said:Yep, ATF could storm an orphanage with guns blazing to arrest one guy that they could have picked up when he drove to town every day. No reason we need our LEO's to actually think about collateral damage. /scowboycwr said:
I will say it again but change one word since so many of you want to hang on that.
I don't get this DEFENDING of a pedophile, cult, armed terrorist organization.
The operation was a horrible over reach by the government.
But the davidians did NOT defend themselves. You cannot defend yourself from law enforcement conducting a warrant.
The davidians killed those kids.
Lol. Not what happened.
1. It was not an orphanage.
2. It wasn't guns blazing.
3. Getting him in town does not get the evidence.
More defense of the evil man simply because the ATF screwed this up.
For the last time...
NO ONE IS DEFENDING DAVID KORESH!!
How the **** can you be so dense!
David Koresh was a cult leader. He violated the law. He souks have been arrested and imprisoned. Maybe a few of the others in the cult also needed to be arrested.
The reality is that almost ALL of the men and most of the women worked in Waco. With that many agents, they cloud have easily worked with the sheriff and Waco PD to coordinate teams to arrest them all in a matter of hours.
The women & children who would be left at the compound would not have put up a fight, nor would they have been able to destroy the illegal weapons.
The ATF wanted a shootout. That's why they took steps to insure that the TV reporter & cameraman would be there.
If the ATF had truly wanted to protect lives, they would NEVER have assaulted the compound in this manner.
They thought they were going to kick ass, but they got their assess handed to them instead.
NO ONE IS DEFENDING KORESH! WE ARE CONDEMNING THE ATF FOR THEIR ACTIONS THAT DIRECTLY LEAD TO THE DEATHS OF INNOCENT CHILDREN!
Go back to the third post in this thread.
It is a post from X/Twitter.
It claims the davidians "defended" themselves.
But yeah tell me again "no one is defending him"
The davidians killed themselves. They killed the kids.
No one has tried to focus on that.
They just want to place the blame on the ATF. Which wasn't even in charge of the siege.
You obviously don't know anything about the raid.
It was an ATF raid. The FBI was brought in a few days later, because of the new charges of killing federal agents.
You obviously know nothing about the case. I was living in Waco at the time and worked at the TV station. I have talked to the reporters and cameramen who were there from day one until the fire. I have talked with the sheriff and a few deputies. I have talked with the former Waco police chief. I have talked with FBI agents who were there during and after the siege. I have talked with soldiers from Ft Hood who were on helicopters during the siege.
You really have no idea what you are talking about. Much of your information is Clinton era cover up BS.
You are just acting like a fool. You should quit while you are behind. The more you post the worse you look.
The ATF actions were totally irresponsible and indefensible.
The case is a perfect example of how NOT to execute a search warrant. Only a fool would think that the ATF had an oopsie, and they were acting in a manner protect the innocent.
The ATF instigated a violent confrontation because that is what they wanted. That makes them responsible for everything that flowed after, including the deaths of the children. You are an idiot if you can't see that.
A perfect example of how totally uninformed you are... the Davidians NEVER said they were going to attack the government. They had the weapons because Koresh told his followers that the feds would come attack them. That's why they built a compound and stock up weapons... not to attack but to fight off an attack.
You don't even have the most basic info correct.... no wonder you are defending the out of control ATF... you have swallowed the Kool Aid.
Assassin said:
We had a rental store on 25th Street and rented Koresh a Ford 3500 tractor. Then the event happened and we got a call from the ATF asking if they could keep the tractor out there to use. Dad sent a couple of guys out there to service it. They pulled up and the ATF were laying out rows of weapons they had found along with a 5 gallon bucket of what appeared to be grenades of some sort. They got to the tractor and it had bullet holes in it.
They serviced it and some ATF guys came by to learn how to use the front end loader. Our guys asked what they were going to do with it, they said "gotta move some bodies"
Once we got it back, Dad repaired it. I think he had to change out one of the front arms that had a bullet hole in it, along with the engine cowling. ATF sent him a 'Thank You' letter he put up on the wall at the office.
You rented a tractor to a violent terrorist? LOL
He certainly wasnt a violent terrorist when Dad rented him a tractor. Just a bit of a nut out in the sticks. If we didn't rent to every bit of a nut out in the sticks, we would have lost half our businessShooterTX said:You rented a tractor to a violent terrorist? LOLAssassin said:
We had a rental store on 25th Street and rented Koresh a Ford 3500 tractor. Then the event happened and we got a call from the ATF asking if they could keep the tractor out there to use. Dad sent a couple of guys out there to service it. They pulled up and the ATF were laying out rows of weapons they had found along with a 5 gallon bucket of what appeared to be grenades of some sort. They got to the tractor and it had bullet holes in it.
They serviced it and some ATF guys came by to learn how to use the front end loader. Our guys asked what they were going to do with it, they said "gotta move some bodies"
Once we got it back, Dad repaired it. I think he had to change out one of the front arms that had a bullet hole in it, along with the engine cowling. ATF sent him a 'Thank You' letter he put up on the wall at the office.
Facebook Groups at; Memories of: Dallas, Texas, Football in Texas, Texas Music, Through a Texas Lens and also Dallas History Guild. Come visit!
He never was a violent terrorist. That was the BS that the other guy was trying to push. Koresh was a nut out in the sticks... a perfect description.Assassin said:He certainly wasnt a violent terrorist when Dad rented him a tractor. Just a bit of a nut out in the sticks. If we didn't rent to every bit of a nut out in the sticks, we would have lost half our businessShooterTX said:You rented a tractor to a violent terrorist? LOLAssassin said:
We had a rental store on 25th Street and rented Koresh a Ford 3500 tractor. Then the event happened and we got a call from the ATF asking if they could keep the tractor out there to use. Dad sent a couple of guys out there to service it. They pulled up and the ATF were laying out rows of weapons they had found along with a 5 gallon bucket of what appeared to be grenades of some sort. They got to the tractor and it had bullet holes in it.
They serviced it and some ATF guys came by to learn how to use the front end loader. Our guys asked what they were going to do with it, they said "gotta move some bodies"
Once we got it back, Dad repaired it. I think he had to change out one of the front arms that had a bullet hole in it, along with the engine cowling. ATF sent him a 'Thank You' letter he put up on the wall at the office.
And if they had left him alone, he would still be a nut out in the sticks, and all those kids would still be alive.
Or they could have arrested him in the parking lot of First Baptist Church on any given Sunday... and those kids would still be alive. Of they could have arrested him when he brought the tractor back to your dad's store... but no... they wanted a shootout with a nut out in the sticks.
ShooterTX said:cowboycwr said:ShooterTX said:cowboycwr said:TinFoilHatPreacherBear said:Yep, ATF could storm an orphanage with guns blazing to arrest one guy that they could have picked up when he drove to town every day. No reason we need our LEO's to actually think about collateral damage. /scowboycwr said:
I will say it again but change one word since so many of you want to hang on that.
I don't get this DEFENDING of a pedophile, cult, armed terrorist organization.
The operation was a horrible over reach by the government.
But the davidians did NOT defend themselves. You cannot defend yourself from law enforcement conducting a warrant.
The davidians killed those kids.
Lol. Not what happened.
1. It was not an orphanage.
2. It wasn't guns blazing.
3. Getting him in town does not get the evidence.
More defense of the evil man simply because the ATF screwed this up.
For the last time...
NO ONE IS DEFENDING DAVID KORESH!!
How the **** can you be so dense!
David Koresh was a cult leader. He violated the law. He souks have been arrested and imprisoned. Maybe a few of the others in the cult also needed to be arrested.
The reality is that almost ALL of the men and most of the women worked in Waco. With that many agents, they cloud have easily worked with the sheriff and Waco PD to coordinate teams to arrest them all in a matter of hours.
The women & children who would be left at the compound would not have put up a fight, nor would they have been able to destroy the illegal weapons.
The ATF wanted a shootout. That's why they took steps to insure that the TV reporter & cameraman would be there.
If the ATF had truly wanted to protect lives, they would NEVER have assaulted the compound in this manner.
They thought they were going to kick ass, but they got their assess handed to them instead.
NO ONE IS DEFENDING KORESH! WE ARE CONDEMNING THE ATF FOR THEIR ACTIONS THAT DIRECTLY LEAD TO THE DEATHS OF INNOCENT CHILDREN!
Go back to the third post in this thread.
It is a post from X/Twitter.
It claims the davidians "defended" themselves.
But yeah tell me again "no one is defending him"
The davidians killed themselves. They killed the kids.
No one has tried to focus on that.
They just want to place the blame on the ATF. Which wasn't even in charge of the siege.
You obviously don't know anything about the raid.
It was an ATF raid. The FBI was brought in a few days later, because of the new charges of killing federal agents.
You obviously know nothing about the case. I was living in Waco at the time and worked at the TV station. I have talked to the reporters and cameramen who were there from day one until the fire. I have talked with the sheriff and a few deputies. I have talked with the former Waco police chief. I have talked with FBI agents who were there during and after the siege. I have talked with soldiers from Ft Hood who were on helicopters during the siege.
You really have no idea what you are talking about. Much of your information is Clinton era cover up BS.
You are just acting like a fool. You should quit while you are behind. The more you post the worse you look.
The ATF actions were totally irresponsible and indefensible.
The case is a perfect example of how NOT to execute a search warrant. Only a fool would think that the ATF had an oopsie, and they were acting in a manner protect the innocent.
The ATF instigated a violent confrontation because that is what they wanted. That makes them responsible for everything that flowed after, including the deaths of the children. You are an idiot if you can't see that.
A perfect example of how totally uninformed you are... the Davidians NEVER said they were going to attack the government. They had the weapons because Koresh told his followers that the feds would come attack them. That's why they built a compound and stock up weapons... not to attack but to fight off an attack.
You don't even have the most basic info correct.... no wonder you are defending the out of control ATF... you have swallowed the Kool Aid.
Sigh.
I have all of my information right.
I have NOT defended the government.
You just assume that and feel the need to keep repeating yourself.
I NEVER said the FBI was in charge of the raid. I said they were in charge of the siege. Two different events.
None of my information is Clinton era BS but is the facts.
Again not defending the government. I have even called out the sloppiness of the raid but you ignore that.
The ATF was wrong in how they handled the raid. The davidians knew they were coming. The ATF never should have told anyone they were going.
However, once they got there the davidians fired first. As I have said multiple times, and you and everyone else has ignored, people do not get to shoot at police, atf, fbi, etc. that are conducting a search warrant.
Again they should not have gone that day or called anyone. But that does NOT make them responsible for the davidians killing their children.
A PERFECT example of how well informed I am and how obtuse you are being is that the Davidians fathered weapons to shoot at feds when they showed up. That is called attacking. They then fired first when the feds show up. That is attacking.
They never planned to go to a federal building and attack it. But I never said that is what they were going to do. That just seems to be what you read when you saw the word attack because you want to claim I am wrong.
I have all the info correct. But again you are reading what you want just because you want to claim I am wrong.
ShooterTX said:He never was a violent terrorist. That was the BS that the other guy was trying to push. Koresh was a nut out in the sticks... a perfect description.Assassin said:He certainly wasnt a violent terrorist when Dad rented him a tractor. Just a bit of a nut out in the sticks. If we didn't rent to every bit of a nut out in the sticks, we would have lost half our businessShooterTX said:You rented a tractor to a violent terrorist? LOLAssassin said:
We had a rental store on 25th Street and rented Koresh a Ford 3500 tractor. Then the event happened and we got a call from the ATF asking if they could keep the tractor out there to use. Dad sent a couple of guys out there to service it. They pulled up and the ATF were laying out rows of weapons they had found along with a 5 gallon bucket of what appeared to be grenades of some sort. They got to the tractor and it had bullet holes in it.
They serviced it and some ATF guys came by to learn how to use the front end loader. Our guys asked what they were going to do with it, they said "gotta move some bodies"
Once we got it back, Dad repaired it. I think he had to change out one of the front arms that had a bullet hole in it, along with the engine cowling. ATF sent him a 'Thank You' letter he put up on the wall at the office.
And if they had left him alone, he would still be a nut out in the sticks, and all those kids would still be alive.
Or they could have arrested him in the parking lot of First Baptist Church on any given Sunday... and those kids would still be alive. Of they could have arrested him when he brought the tractor back to your dad's store... but no... they wanted a shootout with a nut out in the sticks.
What would you call a group of people that collect weapons to shoot feds?
Terrorist.
1) You're defending the sloppiness of the raid, and the blatant disregard for collateral damage. You think kids dying shouldn't have been a consideration that the ATF/FBI considered.cowboycwr said:ShooterTX said:cowboycwr said:ShooterTX said:cowboycwr said:TinFoilHatPreacherBear said:Yep, ATF could storm an orphanage with guns blazing to arrest one guy that they could have picked up when he drove to town every day. No reason we need our LEO's to actually think about collateral damage. /scowboycwr said:
I will say it again but change one word since so many of you want to hang on that.
I don't get this DEFENDING of a pedophile, cult, armed terrorist organization.
The operation was a horrible over reach by the government.
But the davidians did NOT defend themselves. You cannot defend yourself from law enforcement conducting a warrant.
The davidians killed those kids.
Lol. Not what happened.
1. It was not an orphanage.
2. It wasn't guns blazing.
3. Getting him in town does not get the evidence.
More defense of the evil man simply because the ATF screwed this up.
For the last time...
NO ONE IS DEFENDING DAVID KORESH!!
How the **** can you be so dense!
David Koresh was a cult leader. He violated the law. He souks have been arrested and imprisoned. Maybe a few of the others in the cult also needed to be arrested.
The reality is that almost ALL of the men and most of the women worked in Waco. With that many agents, they cloud have easily worked with the sheriff and Waco PD to coordinate teams to arrest them all in a matter of hours.
The women & children who would be left at the compound would not have put up a fight, nor would they have been able to destroy the illegal weapons.
The ATF wanted a shootout. That's why they took steps to insure that the TV reporter & cameraman would be there.
If the ATF had truly wanted to protect lives, they would NEVER have assaulted the compound in this manner.
They thought they were going to kick ass, but they got their assess handed to them instead.
NO ONE IS DEFENDING KORESH! WE ARE CONDEMNING THE ATF FOR THEIR ACTIONS THAT DIRECTLY LEAD TO THE DEATHS OF INNOCENT CHILDREN!
Go back to the third post in this thread.
It is a post from X/Twitter.
It claims the davidians "defended" themselves.
But yeah tell me again "no one is defending him"
The davidians killed themselves. They killed the kids.
No one has tried to focus on that.
They just want to place the blame on the ATF. Which wasn't even in charge of the siege.
You obviously don't know anything about the raid.
It was an ATF raid. The FBI was brought in a few days later, because of the new charges of killing federal agents.
You obviously know nothing about the case. I was living in Waco at the time and worked at the TV station. I have talked to the reporters and cameramen who were there from day one until the fire. I have talked with the sheriff and a few deputies. I have talked with the former Waco police chief. I have talked with FBI agents who were there during and after the siege. I have talked with soldiers from Ft Hood who were on helicopters during the siege.
You really have no idea what you are talking about. Much of your information is Clinton era cover up BS.
You are just acting like a fool. You should quit while you are behind. The more you post the worse you look.
The ATF actions were totally irresponsible and indefensible.
The case is a perfect example of how NOT to execute a search warrant. Only a fool would think that the ATF had an oopsie, and they were acting in a manner protect the innocent.
The ATF instigated a violent confrontation because that is what they wanted. That makes them responsible for everything that flowed after, including the deaths of the children. You are an idiot if you can't see that.
A perfect example of how totally uninformed you are... the Davidians NEVER said they were going to attack the government. They had the weapons because Koresh told his followers that the feds would come attack them. That's why they built a compound and stock up weapons... not to attack but to fight off an attack.
You don't even have the most basic info correct.... no wonder you are defending the out of control ATF... you have swallowed the Kool Aid.
Sigh.
I have all of my information right.
I have NOT defended the government.
You just assume that and feel the need to keep repeating yourself.
I NEVER said the FBI was in charge of the raid. I said they were in charge of the siege. Two different events.
None of my information is Clinton era BS but is the facts.
Again not defending the government. I have even called out the sloppiness of the raid but you ignore that.
The ATF was wrong in how they handled the raid. The davidians knew they were coming. The ATF never should have told anyone they were going.
However, once they got there the davidians fired first. As I have said multiple times, and you and everyone else has ignored, people do not get to shoot at police, atf, fbi, etc. that are conducting a search warrant.
Again they should not have gone that day or called anyone. But that does NOT make them responsible for the davidians killing their children.
A PERFECT example of how well informed I am and how obtuse you are being is that the Davidians fathered weapons to shoot at feds when they showed up. That is called attacking. They then fired first when the feds show up. That is attacking.
They never planned to go to a federal building and attack it. But I never said that is what they were going to do. That just seems to be what you read when you saw the word attack because you want to claim I am wrong.
I have all the info correct. But again you are reading what you want just because you want to claim I am wrong.
2) You're defending the sloppiness of the raid, and the blatant disregard for collateral damage. You think kids dying shouldn't have been a consideration that the ATF/FBI considered.
and
3) You're defending the sloppiness of the raid, and the blatant disregard for collateral damage. You think kids dying shouldn't have been a consideration that the ATF/FBI considered.
This is what you sound like in every one of your posts. Clearly misrepresenting what others are saying.
TinFoilHatPreacherBear said:1) You're defending the sloppiness of the raid, and the blatant disregard for collateral damage. You think kids dying shouldn't have been a consideration that the ATF/FBI considered.cowboycwr said:ShooterTX said:cowboycwr said:ShooterTX said:cowboycwr said:TinFoilHatPreacherBear said:Yep, ATF could storm an orphanage with guns blazing to arrest one guy that they could have picked up when he drove to town every day. No reason we need our LEO's to actually think about collateral damage. /scowboycwr said:
I will say it again but change one word since so many of you want to hang on that.
I don't get this DEFENDING of a pedophile, cult, armed terrorist organization.
The operation was a horrible over reach by the government.
But the davidians did NOT defend themselves. You cannot defend yourself from law enforcement conducting a warrant.
The davidians killed those kids.
Lol. Not what happened.
1. It was not an orphanage.
2. It wasn't guns blazing.
3. Getting him in town does not get the evidence.
More defense of the evil man simply because the ATF screwed this up.
For the last time...
NO ONE IS DEFENDING DAVID KORESH!!
How the **** can you be so dense!
David Koresh was a cult leader. He violated the law. He souks have been arrested and imprisoned. Maybe a few of the others in the cult also needed to be arrested.
The reality is that almost ALL of the men and most of the women worked in Waco. With that many agents, they cloud have easily worked with the sheriff and Waco PD to coordinate teams to arrest them all in a matter of hours.
The women & children who would be left at the compound would not have put up a fight, nor would they have been able to destroy the illegal weapons.
The ATF wanted a shootout. That's why they took steps to insure that the TV reporter & cameraman would be there.
If the ATF had truly wanted to protect lives, they would NEVER have assaulted the compound in this manner.
They thought they were going to kick ass, but they got their assess handed to them instead.
NO ONE IS DEFENDING KORESH! WE ARE CONDEMNING THE ATF FOR THEIR ACTIONS THAT DIRECTLY LEAD TO THE DEATHS OF INNOCENT CHILDREN!
Go back to the third post in this thread.
It is a post from X/Twitter.
It claims the davidians "defended" themselves.
But yeah tell me again "no one is defending him"
The davidians killed themselves. They killed the kids.
No one has tried to focus on that.
They just want to place the blame on the ATF. Which wasn't even in charge of the siege.
You obviously don't know anything about the raid.
It was an ATF raid. The FBI was brought in a few days later, because of the new charges of killing federal agents.
You obviously know nothing about the case. I was living in Waco at the time and worked at the TV station. I have talked to the reporters and cameramen who were there from day one until the fire. I have talked with the sheriff and a few deputies. I have talked with the former Waco police chief. I have talked with FBI agents who were there during and after the siege. I have talked with soldiers from Ft Hood who were on helicopters during the siege.
You really have no idea what you are talking about. Much of your information is Clinton era cover up BS.
You are just acting like a fool. You should quit while you are behind. The more you post the worse you look.
The ATF actions were totally irresponsible and indefensible.
The case is a perfect example of how NOT to execute a search warrant. Only a fool would think that the ATF had an oopsie, and they were acting in a manner protect the innocent.
The ATF instigated a violent confrontation because that is what they wanted. That makes them responsible for everything that flowed after, including the deaths of the children. You are an idiot if you can't see that.
A perfect example of how totally uninformed you are... the Davidians NEVER said they were going to attack the government. They had the weapons because Koresh told his followers that the feds would come attack them. That's why they built a compound and stock up weapons... not to attack but to fight off an attack.
You don't even have the most basic info correct.... no wonder you are defending the out of control ATF... you have swallowed the Kool Aid.
Sigh.
I have all of my information right.
I have NOT defended the government.
You just assume that and feel the need to keep repeating yourself.
I NEVER said the FBI was in charge of the raid. I said they were in charge of the siege. Two different events.
None of my information is Clinton era BS but is the facts.
Again not defending the government. I have even called out the sloppiness of the raid but you ignore that.
The ATF was wrong in how they handled the raid. The davidians knew they were coming. The ATF never should have told anyone they were going.
However, once they got there the davidians fired first. As I have said multiple times, and you and everyone else has ignored, people do not get to shoot at police, atf, fbi, etc. that are conducting a search warrant.
Again they should not have gone that day or called anyone. But that does NOT make them responsible for the davidians killing their children.
A PERFECT example of how well informed I am and how obtuse you are being is that the Davidians fathered weapons to shoot at feds when they showed up. That is called attacking. They then fired first when the feds show up. That is attacking.
They never planned to go to a federal building and attack it. But I never said that is what they were going to do. That just seems to be what you read when you saw the word attack because you want to claim I am wrong.
I have all the info correct. But again you are reading what you want just because you want to claim I am wrong.
2) You're defending the sloppiness of the raid, and the blatant disregard for collateral damage. You think kids dying shouldn't have been a consideration that the ATF/FBI considered.
and
3) You're defending the sloppiness of the raid, and the blatant disregard for collateral damage. You think kids dying shouldn't have been a consideration that the ATF/FBI considered.
This is what you sound like in every one of your posts. Clearly misrepresenting what others are saying.
Lol.
I have not said any of what you posted at all.
Post one quote of mine that does any of that.