TinFoilHatPreacherBear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

ron.reagan said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

ron.reagan said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

ron.reagan said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

ron.reagan said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

The population of Ukraine has been cut in half compared to before the war. About a half million Ukrainians killed, the rest left the country.

---

These are horrible numbers and do not even reflect the hundreds of thousands of Ukrainian wounded.

Many of whom are permanently crippled.

And all due to the miscalculations of Putin and Biden over the 'merits' of NATO membership.

You Dems who are all hot about Harris because of abortion or because she is a woman…..keep in mind.

This fool went to Europe after Putin put over 200,000 soldiers along the Ukraine border …..and again called for Ukraine to join NATO.

Putin invaded shortly afterward.

Biden - Harris are responsible for the worst foreign policy blunder by the United States since the Korean War.

And yet you want THIS bimbo to be our Commander in Chief ?

Are you willing to live or die based on the decisions of this bimbo ?

---

You might want to poll all the dead Americans scattered around Asian jungles and middle eastern deserts.

---

You are so absolutely hopeless.

The next time you consider posting something so ridiculously stupid; just keep in mind......

it's not in fact 'clever'.

---

The point is that you were completely wrong and doubt you even agree with yourself

---

In the vain attempt to educate you.... READ about Truman's order to push US forces north to the Yalu river.

But since you are either perpetually stoned or terminally stupid just resume your polling of the dead .

---

Does the Yalu run all the way through Vietnam and Iraq? Otherwise I have no idea what your point is.

---

READ what happened when Truman ( and the Joint Chiefs ) ignored repeated warming from Mao and invaded
North Korea and approached the Yalu River.

The consequences of which impacted US realities in the far east including Vietnam.

---

Considering I've worked for Samsung half my life and spent a good part of my life in SK I'd say Truman helped pay my mortgage

---

Truman helped pay your mortgage and got tens of thousands of UN troops killed.

---

No, North Korea invading got those UN troops killed. Same with Ukraine, Russia invading got those Ukrainian kids killed. The fault lies with who invaded, blaming a Nation for assisting one in trouble is not a fault.

---

Some pretty stark differences....

1. South Korea in 1950 was already within the American sphere of influence when Stalin and Mao authorized the Communists of North Korea to try and invade the South....Stalin had agreed to that at Yalta years before.

Not to mention the USA was acting under a broad consensus and UN mandate to provide military aid to the Republic of Korea.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Security_Council_Resolution_83

2. Ukraine has never been inside the American sphere of influence.

No one agreed to that.

And the UN has not authorized a war to throw out the Russians.

---

And no one is fighting the Russians but the Ukraines. You seem to forget we are selling weapons when asked by Ukraine. There is no UN force in Ukraine..

---

(Well let's pretend for a moment that the Pentagon is not directing the Ukrainians fight against Russia right now.)

For now we are just giving them money.

But tomorrow? Who can say….we have been sucked into wars before by a slow and steady deepening of our involvement.

---

We're giving more than money. I think we're giving Equipment, arms, training personne.

---

Ok, when I say equipment, munitions and tech there is a training component. Selling or giving an F16 with just an instruction manual is pretty worthless.

First, the NATO played an active role in the creation of the current structure, when one of the Nations we gave assurances to for security is invaded you can't turn your back. I agree that troops ( on the ground combat, combat support and air troops taking part in the fighting) is not wanted. Supplying (including training on new weapon systems) Ukraine to defend itself is justified. If we are to have any credibility.

Second, a united NATO front is the best way to prevent an escalation. NATOs actions in Ukraine are helping keep other areas free, Taiwan, S Korea, etc..

We disagree, I see Ukraine as the proper response.

FLBear5630 said:

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TinFoilHatPreacherBear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

ron.reagan said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

ron.reagan said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

ron.reagan said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

ron.reagan said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

The population of Ukraine has been cut in half compared to before the war. About a half million Ukrainians killed, the rest left the country.

---

These are horrible numbers and do not even reflect the hundreds of thousands of Ukrainian wounded.

Many of whom are permanently crippled.

And all due to the miscalculations of Putin and Biden over the 'merits' of NATO membership.

You Dems who are all hot about Harris because of abortion or because she is a woman…..keep in mind.

This fool went to Europe after Putin put over 200,000 soldiers along the Ukraine border …..and again called for Ukraine to join NATO.

Putin invaded shortly afterward.

Biden - Harris are responsible for the worst foreign policy blunder by the United States since the Korean War.

And yet you want THIS bimbo to be our Commander in Chief ?

Are you willing to live or die based on the decisions of this bimbo ?

---

You might want to poll all the dead Americans scattered around Asian jungles and middle eastern deserts.

---

You are so absolutely hopeless.

The next time you consider posting something so ridiculously stupid; just keep in mind......

it's not in fact 'clever'.

---

The point is that you were completely wrong and doubt you even agree with yourself

---

In the vain attempt to educate you.... READ about Truman's order to push US forces north to the Yalu river.

But since you are either perpetually stoned or terminally stupid just resume your polling of the dead .

---

Does the Yalu run all the way through Vietnam and Iraq? Otherwise I have no idea what your point is.

---

READ what happened when Truman ( and the Joint Chiefs ) ignored repeated warming from Mao and invaded
North Korea and approached the Yalu River.

The consequences of which impacted US realities in the far east including Vietnam.

---

Considering I've worked for Samsung half my life and spent a good part of my life in SK I'd say Truman helped pay my mortgage

---

Truman helped pay your mortgage and got tens of thousands of UN troops killed.

---

No, North Korea invading got those UN troops killed. Same with Ukraine, Russia invading got those Ukrainian kids killed. The fault lies with who invaded, blaming a Nation for assisting one in trouble is not a fault.

---

Some pretty stark differences....

1. South Korea in 1950 was already within the American sphere of influence when Stalin and Mao authorized the Communists of North Korea to try and invade the South....Stalin had agreed to that at Yalta years before.

Not to mention the USA was acting under a broad consensus and UN mandate to provide military aid to the Republic of Korea.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Security_Council_Resolution_83

2. Ukraine has never been inside the American sphere of influence.

No one agreed to that.

And the UN has not authorized a war to throw out the Russians.

---

And no one is fighting the Russians but the Ukraines. You seem to forget we are selling weapons when asked by Ukraine. There is no UN force in Ukraine..

---

(Well let's pretend for a moment that the Pentagon is not directing the Ukrainians fight against Russia right now.)

For now we are just giving them money.

But tomorrow? Who can say….we have been sucked into wars before by a slow and steady deepening of our involvement.

---

We're giving more than money. I think we're giving Equipment, arms, training personne.

---

Ok, when I say equipment, munitions and tech there is a training component. Selling or giving an F16 with just an instruction manual is pretty worthless.

First, the NATO played an active role in the creation of the current structure, when one of the Nations we gave assurances to for security is invaded you can't turn your back. I agree that troops ( on the ground combat, combat support and air troops taking part in the fighting) is not wanted. Supplying (including training on new weapon systems) Ukraine to defend itself is justified. If we are to have any credibility.

Second, a united NATO front is the best way to prevent an escalation. NATOs actions in Ukraine are helping keep other areas free, Taiwan, S Korea, etc..

We disagree, I see Ukraine as the proper response.

---

I don't think I've tried to make the point that helping the Ukraine is wrong. My main argument is that I think there will come a point that money isn't enough and we get sucked in and other countries take advantage of that opportunity . I think the longer it goes, the more money we throw at it, the risk to getting sucked in greatly increases. The more desperate the Russians become actually increases the risk as well imo because they become unpredictable, and the options can get more extreme.

TinFoilHatPreacherBear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

TinFoilHatPreacherBear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

ron.reagan said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

ron.reagan said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

ron.reagan said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

ron.reagan said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

The population of Ukraine has been cut in half compared to before the war. About a half million Ukrainians killed, the rest left the country.

---

These are horrible numbers and do not even reflect the hundreds of thousands of Ukrainian wounded.

Many of whom are permanently crippled.

And all due to the miscalculations of Putin and Biden over the 'merits' of NATO membership.

You Dems who are all hot about Harris because of abortion or because she is a woman…..keep in mind.

This fool went to Europe after Putin put over 200,000 soldiers along the Ukraine border …..and again called for Ukraine to join NATO.

Putin invaded shortly afterward.

Biden - Harris are responsible for the worst foreign policy blunder by the United States since the Korean War.

And yet you want THIS bimbo to be our Commander in Chief ?

Are you willing to live or die based on the decisions of this bimbo ?

---

You might want to poll all the dead Americans scattered around Asian jungles and middle eastern deserts.

---

You are so absolutely hopeless.

The next time you consider posting something so ridiculously stupid; just keep in mind......

it's not in fact 'clever'.

---

The point is that you were completely wrong and doubt you even agree with yourself

---

In the vain attempt to educate you.... READ about Truman's order to push US forces north to the Yalu river.

But since you are either perpetually stoned or terminally stupid just resume your polling of the dead .

---

Does the Yalu run all the way through Vietnam and Iraq? Otherwise I have no idea what your point is.

---

READ what happened when Truman ( and the Joint Chiefs ) ignored repeated warming from Mao and invaded
North Korea and approached the Yalu River.

The consequences of which impacted US realities in the far east including Vietnam.

---

Considering I've worked for Samsung half my life and spent a good part of my life in SK I'd say Truman helped pay my mortgage

---

Truman helped pay your mortgage and got tens of thousands of UN troops killed.

---

No, North Korea invading got those UN troops killed. Same with Ukraine, Russia invading got those Ukrainian kids killed. The fault lies with who invaded, blaming a Nation for assisting one in trouble is not a fault.

---

Some pretty stark differences....

1. South Korea in 1950 was already within the American sphere of influence when Stalin and Mao authorized the Communists of North Korea to try and invade the South....Stalin had agreed to that at Yalta years before.

Not to mention the USA was acting under a broad consensus and UN mandate to provide military aid to the Republic of Korea.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Security_Council_Resolution_83

2. Ukraine has never been inside the American sphere of influence.

No one agreed to that.

And the UN has not authorized a war to throw out the Russians.

---

And no one is fighting the Russians but the Ukraines. You seem to forget we are selling weapons when asked by Ukraine. There is no UN force in Ukraine..

---

(Well let's pretend for a moment that the Pentagon is not directing the Ukrainians fight against Russia right now.)

For now we are just giving them money.

But tomorrow? Who can say….we have been sucked into wars before by a slow and steady deepening of our involvement.

---

We're giving more than money. I think we're giving Equipment, arms, training personne.

---

Ok, when I say equipment, munitions and tech there is a training component. Selling or giving an F16 with just an instruction manual is pretty worthless.

First, the NATO played an active role in the creation of the current structure, when one of the Nations we gave assurances to for security is invaded you can't turn your back. I agree that troops ( on the ground combat, combat support and air troops taking part in the fighting) is not wanted. Supplying (including training on new weapon systems) Ukraine to defend itself is justified. If we are to have any credibility.

Second, a united NATO front is the best way to prevent an escalation. NATOs actions in Ukraine are helping keep other areas free, Taiwan, S Korea, etc..

We disagree, I see Ukraine as the proper response.

---

I don't think I've tried to make the point that helping the Ukraine is wrong. My main argument is that I think there will come a point that money isn't enough and we get sucked in and other countries take the opportunity. I think the longer it goes on the risk to getting sucked in greatly increases.

---

It would not be the first time something like this happened

I was reading about a long time Presidential political advisor (worked for Clinton, Obama, Biden) and came across this interesting statement

[In preparation to advise the president on Afghanistan and Pakistan, Tom Donilon commissioned evaluations of the decision-making processes underpinning both the Vietnam War and the Iraq War, which showed, according to Newsweek, "an astonishing historical truth: neither the Vietnam War nor the Iraq War featured any key meetings where all the issues and assumptions were discussed by policymakers. In both cases the United States was sucked into war inch by inch." Donilon was opposed to further intervention in Afghanistan...]

https://www.newsweek.com/jonathan-alter-obama-year-one-promise-72479

TinFoilHatPreacherBear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

TinFoilHatPreacherBear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

ron.reagan said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

ron.reagan said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

ron.reagan said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

ron.reagan said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

The population of Ukraine has been cut in half compared to before the war. About a half million Ukrainians killed, the rest left the country.

---

These are horrible numbers and do not even reflect the hundreds of thousands of Ukrainian wounded.

Many of whom are permanently crippled.

And all due to the miscalculations of Putin and Biden over the 'merits' of NATO membership.

You Dems who are all hot about Harris because of abortion or because she is a woman…..keep in mind.

This fool went to Europe after Putin put over 200,000 soldiers along the Ukraine border …..and again called for Ukraine to join NATO.

Putin invaded shortly afterward.

Biden - Harris are responsible for the worst foreign policy blunder by the United States since the Korean War.

And yet you want THIS bimbo to be our Commander in Chief ?

Are you willing to live or die based on the decisions of this bimbo ?

---

You might want to poll all the dead Americans scattered around Asian jungles and middle eastern deserts.

---

You are so absolutely hopeless.

The next time you consider posting something so ridiculously stupid; just keep in mind......

it's not in fact 'clever'.

---

The point is that you were completely wrong and doubt you even agree with yourself

---

In the vain attempt to educate you.... READ about Truman's order to push US forces north to the Yalu river.

But since you are either perpetually stoned or terminally stupid just resume your polling of the dead .

---

Does the Yalu run all the way through Vietnam and Iraq? Otherwise I have no idea what your point is.

---

READ what happened when Truman ( and the Joint Chiefs ) ignored repeated warming from Mao and invaded
North Korea and approached the Yalu River.

The consequences of which impacted US realities in the far east including Vietnam.

---

Considering I've worked for Samsung half my life and spent a good part of my life in SK I'd say Truman helped pay my mortgage

---

Truman helped pay your mortgage and got tens of thousands of UN troops killed.

---

No, North Korea invading got those UN troops killed. Same with Ukraine, Russia invading got those Ukrainian kids killed. The fault lies with who invaded, blaming a Nation for assisting one in trouble is not a fault.

---

Some pretty stark differences....

1. South Korea in 1950 was already within the American sphere of influence when Stalin and Mao authorized the Communists of North Korea to try and invade the South....Stalin had agreed to that at Yalta years before.

Not to mention the USA was acting under a broad consensus and UN mandate to provide military aid to the Republic of Korea.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Security_Council_Resolution_83

2. Ukraine has never been inside the American sphere of influence.

No one agreed to that.

And the UN has not authorized a war to throw out the Russians.

---

And no one is fighting the Russians but the Ukraines. You seem to forget we are selling weapons when asked by Ukraine. There is no UN force in Ukraine..

---

(Well let's pretend for a moment that the Pentagon is not directing the Ukrainians fight against Russia right now.)

For now we are just giving them money.

But tomorrow? Who can say….we have been sucked into wars before by a slow and steady deepening of our involvement.

---

We're giving more than money. I think we're giving Equipment, arms, training personne.

---

Ok, when I say equipment, munitions and tech there is a training component. Selling or giving an F16 with just an instruction manual is pretty worthless.

First, the NATO played an active role in the creation of the current structure, when one of the Nations we gave assurances to for security is invaded you can't turn your back. I agree that troops ( on the ground combat, combat support and air troops taking part in the fighting) is not wanted. Supplying (including training on new weapon systems) Ukraine to defend itself is justified. If we are to have any credibility.

Second, a united NATO front is the best way to prevent an escalation. NATOs actions in Ukraine are helping keep other areas free, Taiwan, S Korea, etc..

We disagree, I see Ukraine as the proper response.

---

I don't think I've tried to make the point that helping the Ukraine is wrong. My main argument is that I think there will come a point that money isn't enough and we get sucked in and other countries take the opportunity. I think the longer it goes on the risk to getting sucked in greatly increases.

---

Ukraine has been and will always be (until liberated by the Russians) a money laundering country for the Elites and US Government

BluesBear said:

---

TinFoilHatPreacherBear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

TinFoilHatPreacherBear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

ron.reagan said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

ron.reagan said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

ron.reagan said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

ron.reagan said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

The population of Ukraine has been cut in half compared to before the war. About a half million Ukrainians killed, the rest left the country.

---

These are horrible numbers and do not even reflect the hundreds of thousands of Ukrainian wounded.

Many of whom are permanently crippled.

And all due to the miscalculations of Putin and Biden over the 'merits' of NATO membership.

You Dems who are all hot about Harris because of abortion or because she is a woman…..keep in mind.

This fool went to Europe after Putin put over 200,000 soldiers along the Ukraine border …..and again called for Ukraine to join NATO.

Putin invaded shortly afterward.

Biden - Harris are responsible for the worst foreign policy blunder by the United States since the Korean War.

And yet you want THIS bimbo to be our Commander in Chief ?

Are you willing to live or die based on the decisions of this bimbo ?

---

You might want to poll all the dead Americans scattered around Asian jungles and middle eastern deserts.

---

You are so absolutely hopeless.

The next time you consider posting something so ridiculously stupid; just keep in mind......

it's not in fact 'clever'.

---

The point is that you were completely wrong and doubt you even agree with yourself

---

In the vain attempt to educate you.... READ about Truman's order to push US forces north to the Yalu river.

But since you are either perpetually stoned or terminally stupid just resume your polling of the dead .

---

Does the Yalu run all the way through Vietnam and Iraq? Otherwise I have no idea what your point is.

---

READ what happened when Truman ( and the Joint Chiefs ) ignored repeated warming from Mao and invaded
North Korea and approached the Yalu River.

The consequences of which impacted US realities in the far east including Vietnam.

---

Considering I've worked for Samsung half my life and spent a good part of my life in SK I'd say Truman helped pay my mortgage

---

Truman helped pay your mortgage and got tens of thousands of UN troops killed.

---

No, North Korea invading got those UN troops killed. Same with Ukraine, Russia invading got those Ukrainian kids killed. The fault lies with who invaded, blaming a Nation for assisting one in trouble is not a fault.

---

Some pretty stark differences....

1. South Korea in 1950 was already within the American sphere of influence when Stalin and Mao authorized the Communists of North Korea to try and invade the South....Stalin had agreed to that at Yalta years before.

Not to mention the USA was acting under a broad consensus and UN mandate to provide military aid to the Republic of Korea.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Security_Council_Resolution_83

2. Ukraine has never been inside the American sphere of influence.

No one agreed to that.

And the UN has not authorized a war to throw out the Russians.

---

And no one is fighting the Russians but the Ukraines. You seem to forget we are selling weapons when asked by Ukraine. There is no UN force in Ukraine..

---

(Well let's pretend for a moment that the Pentagon is not directing the Ukrainians fight against Russia right now.)

For now we are just giving them money.

But tomorrow? Who can say….we have been sucked into wars before by a slow and steady deepening of our involvement.

---

We're giving more than money. I think we're giving Equipment, arms, training personne.

---

Ok, when I say equipment, munitions and tech there is a training component. Selling or giving an F16 with just an instruction manual is pretty worthless.

First, the NATO played an active role in the creation of the current structure, when one of the Nations we gave assurances to for security is invaded you can't turn your back. I agree that troops ( on the ground combat, combat support and air troops taking part in the fighting) is not wanted. Supplying (including training on new weapon systems) Ukraine to defend itself is justified. If we are to have any credibility.

Second, a united NATO front is the best way to prevent an escalation. NATOs actions in Ukraine are helping keep other areas free, Taiwan, S Korea, etc..

We disagree, I see Ukraine as the proper response.

---

I don't think I've tried to make the point that helping the Ukraine is wrong. My main argument is that I think there will come a point that money isn't enough and we get sucked in and other countries take the opportunity. I think the longer it goes on the risk to getting sucked in greatly increases.

---

Ukraine has been and will always be (until liberated by the Russians) a money laundering country for the Elites and US Government

---

"liberated" by the Russians??? Do you actually believe that?

TinFoilHatPreacherBear said:

---

BluesBear said:

---

TinFoilHatPreacherBear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

TinFoilHatPreacherBear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

ron.reagan said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

ron.reagan said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

ron.reagan said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

ron.reagan said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

The population of Ukraine has been cut in half compared to before the war. About a half million Ukrainians killed, the rest left the country.

---

These are horrible numbers and do not even reflect the hundreds of thousands of Ukrainian wounded.

Many of whom are permanently crippled.

And all due to the miscalculations of Putin and Biden over the 'merits' of NATO membership.

You Dems who are all hot about Harris because of abortion or because she is a woman…..keep in mind.

This fool went to Europe after Putin put over 200,000 soldiers along the Ukraine border …..and again called for Ukraine to join NATO.

Putin invaded shortly afterward.

Biden - Harris are responsible for the worst foreign policy blunder by the United States since the Korean War.

And yet you want THIS bimbo to be our Commander in Chief ?

Are you willing to live or die based on the decisions of this bimbo ?

---

You might want to poll all the dead Americans scattered around Asian jungles and middle eastern deserts.

---

You are so absolutely hopeless.

The next time you consider posting something so ridiculously stupid; just keep in mind......

it's not in fact 'clever'.

---

The point is that you were completely wrong and doubt you even agree with yourself

---

In the vain attempt to educate you.... READ about Truman's order to push US forces north to the Yalu river.

But since you are either perpetually stoned or terminally stupid just resume your polling of the dead .

---

Does the Yalu run all the way through Vietnam and Iraq? Otherwise I have no idea what your point is.

---

READ what happened when Truman ( and the Joint Chiefs ) ignored repeated warming from Mao and invaded
North Korea and approached the Yalu River.

The consequences of which impacted US realities in the far east including Vietnam.

---

Considering I've worked for Samsung half my life and spent a good part of my life in SK I'd say Truman helped pay my mortgage

---

Truman helped pay your mortgage and got tens of thousands of UN troops killed.

---

No, North Korea invading got those UN troops killed. Same with Ukraine, Russia invading got those Ukrainian kids killed. The fault lies with who invaded, blaming a Nation for assisting one in trouble is not a fault.

---

Some pretty stark differences....

1. South Korea in 1950 was already within the American sphere of influence when Stalin and Mao authorized the Communists of North Korea to try and invade the South....Stalin had agreed to that at Yalta years before.

Not to mention the USA was acting under a broad consensus and UN mandate to provide military aid to the Republic of Korea.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Security_Council_Resolution_83

2. Ukraine has never been inside the American sphere of influence.

No one agreed to that.

And the UN has not authorized a war to throw out the Russians.

---

And no one is fighting the Russians but the Ukraines. You seem to forget we are selling weapons when asked by Ukraine. There is no UN force in Ukraine..

---

(Well let's pretend for a moment that the Pentagon is not directing the Ukrainians fight against Russia right now.)

For now we are just giving them money.

But tomorrow? Who can say….we have been sucked into wars before by a slow and steady deepening of our involvement.

---

We're giving more than money. I think we're giving Equipment, arms, training personne.

---

Ok, when I say equipment, munitions and tech there is a training component. Selling or giving an F16 with just an instruction manual is pretty worthless.

First, the NATO played an active role in the creation of the current structure, when one of the Nations we gave assurances to for security is invaded you can't turn your back. I agree that troops ( on the ground combat, combat support and air troops taking part in the fighting) is not wanted. Supplying (including training on new weapon systems) Ukraine to defend itself is justified. If we are to have any credibility.

Second, a united NATO front is the best way to prevent an escalation. NATOs actions in Ukraine are helping keep other areas free, Taiwan, S Korea, etc..

We disagree, I see Ukraine as the proper response.

---

I don't think I've tried to make the point that helping the Ukraine is wrong. My main argument is that I think there will come a point that money isn't enough and we get sucked in and other countries take the opportunity. I think the longer it goes on the risk to getting sucked in greatly increases.

---

Ukraine has been and will always be (until liberated by the Russians) a money laundering country for the Elites and US Government

---

"liberated" by the Russians??? Do you actually believe that?

---

Certainly a large group in the East of the country feel that way...

Though NOT in the Central or Western parts

[Following the revolution, counter-revolutionary and pro-Russian protests began in parts of the Donbas. A national survey held in MarchApril 2014 found that 58% of respondents in the Donbas wanted full autonomy within Ukraine, while 31% wanted the region to be completely separate from Ukraine.]

TinFoilHatPreacherBear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

TinFoilHatPreacherBear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

ron.reagan said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

ron.reagan said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

ron.reagan said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

ron.reagan said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

The population of Ukraine has been cut in half compared to before the war. About a half million Ukrainians killed, the rest left the country.

---

These are horrible numbers and do not even reflect the hundreds of thousands of Ukrainian wounded.

Many of whom are permanently crippled.

And all due to the miscalculations of Putin and Biden over the 'merits' of NATO membership.

You Dems who are all hot about Harris because of abortion or because she is a woman…..keep in mind.

This fool went to Europe after Putin put over 200,000 soldiers along the Ukraine border …..and again called for Ukraine to join NATO.

Putin invaded shortly afterward.

Biden - Harris are responsible for the worst foreign policy blunder by the United States since the Korean War.

And yet you want THIS bimbo to be our Commander in Chief ?

Are you willing to live or die based on the decisions of this bimbo ?

---

You might want to poll all the dead Americans scattered around Asian jungles and middle eastern deserts.

---

You are so absolutely hopeless.

The next time you consider posting something so ridiculously stupid; just keep in mind......

it's not in fact 'clever'.

---

The point is that you were completely wrong and doubt you even agree with yourself

---

In the vain attempt to educate you.... READ about Truman's order to push US forces north to the Yalu river.

But since you are either perpetually stoned or terminally stupid just resume your polling of the dead .

---

Does the Yalu run all the way through Vietnam and Iraq? Otherwise I have no idea what your point is.

---

READ what happened when Truman ( and the Joint Chiefs ) ignored repeated warming from Mao and invaded
North Korea and approached the Yalu River.

The consequences of which impacted US realities in the far east including Vietnam.

---

Considering I've worked for Samsung half my life and spent a good part of my life in SK I'd say Truman helped pay my mortgage

---

Truman helped pay your mortgage and got tens of thousands of UN troops killed.

---

No, North Korea invading got those UN troops killed. Same with Ukraine, Russia invading got those Ukrainian kids killed. The fault lies with who invaded, blaming a Nation for assisting one in trouble is not a fault.

---

Some pretty stark differences....

1. South Korea in 1950 was already within the American sphere of influence when Stalin and Mao authorized the Communists of North Korea to try and invade the South....Stalin had agreed to that at Yalta years before.

Not to mention the USA was acting under a broad consensus and UN mandate to provide military aid to the Republic of Korea.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Security_Council_Resolution_83

2. Ukraine has never been inside the American sphere of influence.

No one agreed to that.

And the UN has not authorized a war to throw out the Russians.

---

And no one is fighting the Russians but the Ukraines. You seem to forget we are selling weapons when asked by Ukraine. There is no UN force in Ukraine..

---

(Well let's pretend for a moment that the Pentagon is not directing the Ukrainians fight against Russia right now.)

For now we are just giving them money.

But tomorrow? Who can say….we have been sucked into wars before by a slow and steady deepening of our involvement.

---

We're giving more than money. I think we're giving Equipment, arms, training personne.

---

Ok, when I say equipment, munitions and tech there is a training component. Selling or giving an F16 with just an instruction manual is pretty worthless.

First, the NATO played an active role in the creation of the current structure, when one of the Nations we gave assurances to for security is invaded you can't turn your back. I agree that troops ( on the ground combat, combat support and air troops taking part in the fighting) is not wanted. Supplying (including training on new weapon systems) Ukraine to defend itself is justified. If we are to have any credibility.

Second, a united NATO front is the best way to prevent an escalation. NATOs actions in Ukraine are helping keep other areas free, Taiwan, S Korea, etc..

We disagree, I see Ukraine as the proper response.

---

I don't think I've tried to make the point that helping the Ukraine is wrong. My main argument is that I think there will come a point that money isn't enough and we get sucked in and other countries take advantage of that opportunity . I think the longer it goes, the more money we throw at it, the risk to getting sucked in greatly increases. The more desperate the Russians become actually increases the risk as well imo because they become unpredictable, and the options can get more extreme.

---

We don't. It is as simple as that. Short of Russia invading NATO, I do not support using US troops. But, I do believe we owe Ukraine support in other ways due to the 1990's and the implied commitments made.

Until I see a change, I have to give the Admin the benefit of the doubt. I may not like them, but I have to call a spade a spade. We have not committed troops.

KaiBear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Dmitri Simes, a former Nixon advisor who's now persona non grata in the West, had some interesting things to say recently. The Russians consider the invasion of Kursk to be a NATO operation. They also see it in conjunction with the attacks on their nuclear early warning system and the positioning of US aircraft carriers with nuclear-capable planes. He expects the Kursk operation to be followed by air strikes on strategic infrastructure deep within Russia. Many people will scoff at that possibility. The same people assured us that Ukraine would never use long-range missiles, and we see how that turned out. If the Russians believe we're preparing for a nuclear first strike, they'll be forced to react accordingly. Putting them in that position would be the worst US blunder, not just since Korea, but possibly ever. And that's to say nothing of the worsening situation in the Middle East and the South China Sea.

Obama once said, "Never underestimate Joe's ability to f*** things up." If only he'd known how right he was.

---

If our media would only tell the truth about this war 80% of the most vicious Trump haters would vote for him in November.

As we are in very real risk of WW3.

Trump would negotiate a realistic settlement.

People desperately need to wake up.

---

"Freedom is not worth fighting for" - General Kai Bear

ron.reagan said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Dmitri Simes, a former Nixon advisor who's now persona non grata in the West, had some interesting things to say recently. The Russians consider the invasion of Kursk to be a NATO operation. They also see it in conjunction with the attacks on their nuclear early warning system and the positioning of US aircraft carriers with nuclear-capable planes. He expects the Kursk operation to be followed by air strikes on strategic infrastructure deep within Russia. Many people will scoff at that possibility. The same people assured us that Ukraine would never use long-range missiles, and we see how that turned out. If the Russians believe we're preparing for a nuclear first strike, they'll be forced to react accordingly. Putting them in that position would be the worst US blunder, not just since Korea, but possibly ever. And that's to say nothing of the worsening situation in the Middle East and the South China Sea.

Obama once said, "Never underestimate Joe's ability to f*** things up." If only he'd known how right he was.

---

If our media would only tell the truth about this war 80% of the most vicious Trump haters would vote for him in November.

As we are in very real risk of WW3.

Trump would negotiate a realistic settlement.

People desperately need to wake up.

---

"Freedom is not worth fighting for" - General Kai Bear

---

It's always the rear echelon pukes who are so Rambo ready to get someone else killed.

ron.reagan said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Dmitri Simes, a former Nixon advisor who's now persona non grata in the West, had some interesting things to say recently. The Russians consider the invasion of Kursk to be a NATO operation. They also see it in conjunction with the attacks on their nuclear early warning system and the positioning of US aircraft carriers with nuclear-capable planes. He expects the Kursk operation to be followed by air strikes on strategic infrastructure deep within Russia. Many people will scoff at that possibility. The same people assured us that Ukraine would never use long-range missiles, and we see how that turned out. If the Russians believe we're preparing for a nuclear first strike, they'll be forced to react accordingly. Putting them in that position would be the worst US blunder, not just since Korea, but possibly ever. And that's to say nothing of the worsening situation in the Middle East and the South China Sea.

Obama once said, "Never underestimate Joe's ability to f*** things up." If only he'd known how right he was.

---

If our media would only tell the truth about this war 80% of the most vicious Trump haters would vote for him in November.

As we are in very real risk of WW3.

Trump would negotiate a realistic settlement.

People desperately need to wake up.

---

"Freedom is not worth fighting for" - General Kai Bear

---

Our freedom is worth fighting for....and we are increasingly losing it at home as we let D.C. engage in endless wars around the globe.

"What does our ruling class want? What is their agenda for America? Its obviously not to secure our borders, bring home our soldiers from endless foreign wars, or stop mass immigration. They also don't seem very concerned with middle class job loss or a decaying moral order. What kind of future are they working towards?"

"Is it to much to ask that our elites not engage in wars that can't be won and won't start new ones without a clear threat or vital national interest that can be expressed in terms of political outcomes and for which people above the rank of sergeant will be held accountable?"

FLBear5630 said:

---

TinFoilHatPreacherBear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

TinFoilHatPreacherBear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

ron.reagan said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

ron.reagan said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

ron.reagan said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

ron.reagan said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

The population of Ukraine has been cut in half compared to before the war. About a half million Ukrainians killed, the rest left the country.

---

These are horrible numbers and do not even reflect the hundreds of thousands of Ukrainian wounded.

Many of whom are permanently crippled.

And all due to the miscalculations of Putin and Biden over the 'merits' of NATO membership.

You Dems who are all hot about Harris because of abortion or because she is a woman…..keep in mind.

This fool went to Europe after Putin put over 200,000 soldiers along the Ukraine border …..and again called for Ukraine to join NATO.

Putin invaded shortly afterward.

Biden - Harris are responsible for the worst foreign policy blunder by the United States since the Korean War.

And yet you want THIS bimbo to be our Commander in Chief ?

Are you willing to live or die based on the decisions of this bimbo ?

---

You might want to poll all the dead Americans scattered around Asian jungles and middle eastern deserts.

---

You are so absolutely hopeless.

The next time you consider posting something so ridiculously stupid; just keep in mind......

it's not in fact 'clever'.

---

The point is that you were completely wrong and doubt you even agree with yourself

---

In the vain attempt to educate you.... READ about Truman's order to push US forces north to the Yalu river.

But since you are either perpetually stoned or terminally stupid just resume your polling of the dead .

---

Does the Yalu run all the way through Vietnam and Iraq? Otherwise I have no idea what your point is.

---

READ what happened when Truman ( and the Joint Chiefs ) ignored repeated warming from Mao and invaded
North Korea and approached the Yalu River.

The consequences of which impacted US realities in the far east including Vietnam.

---

Considering I've worked for Samsung half my life and spent a good part of my life in SK I'd say Truman helped pay my mortgage

---

Truman helped pay your mortgage and got tens of thousands of UN troops killed.

---

No, North Korea invading got those UN troops killed. Same with Ukraine, Russia invading got those Ukrainian kids killed. The fault lies with who invaded, blaming a Nation for assisting one in trouble is not a fault.

---

Some pretty stark differences....

1. South Korea in 1950 was already within the American sphere of influence when Stalin and Mao authorized the Communists of North Korea to try and invade the South....Stalin had agreed to that at Yalta years before.

Not to mention the USA was acting under a broad consensus and UN mandate to provide military aid to the Republic of Korea.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Security_Council_Resolution_83

2. Ukraine has never been inside the American sphere of influence.

No one agreed to that.

And the UN has not authorized a war to throw out the Russians.

---

And no one is fighting the Russians but the Ukraines. You seem to forget we are selling weapons when asked by Ukraine. There is no UN force in Ukraine..

---

(Well let's pretend for a moment that the Pentagon is not directing the Ukrainians fight against Russia right now.)

For now we are just giving them money.

But tomorrow? Who can say….we have been sucked into wars before by a slow and steady deepening of our involvement.

---

We're giving more than money. I think we're giving Equipment, arms, training personne.

---

Ok, when I say equipment, munitions and tech there is a training component. Selling or giving an F16 with just an instruction manual is pretty worthless.

First, the NATO played an active role in the creation of the current structure, when one of the Nations we gave assurances to for security is invaded you can't turn your back. I agree that troops ( on the ground combat, combat support and air troops taking part in the fighting) is not wanted. Supplying (including training on new weapon systems) Ukraine to defend itself is justified. If we are to have any credibility.

Second, a united NATO front is the best way to prevent an escalation. NATOs actions in Ukraine are helping keep other areas free, Taiwan, S Korea, etc..

We disagree, I see Ukraine as the proper response.

---

I don't think I've tried to make the point that helping the Ukraine is wrong. My main argument is that I think there will come a point that money isn't enough and we get sucked in and other countries take advantage of that opportunity . I think the longer it goes, the more money we throw at it, the risk to getting sucked in greatly increases. The more desperate the Russians become actually increases the risk as well imo because they become unpredictable, and the options can get more extreme.

---

We don't. It is as simple as that. Short of Russia invading NATO, I do not support using US troops. But, I do believe we owe Ukraine support in other ways due to the 1990's and the implied commitments made.

Until I see a change, I have to give the Admin the benefit of the doubt. I may not like them, but I have to call a spade a spade. We have not committed troops.

---

I totally agree. It is in our best interest to weaken Russia by proxy. So it makes all the sense in the world. And we did promise to protect Ukraine in return for them not pursuing a nuclear arsenal.

Ukraine might be a cesspool, but it won't be any better under Putin. And when people are free, they are free to change up regimes. Freedom!!!! MURICAAA

KaiBear said:

---

ron.reagan said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Dmitri Simes, a former Nixon advisor who's now persona non grata in the West, had some interesting things to say recently. The Russians consider the invasion of Kursk to be a NATO operation. They also see it in conjunction with the attacks on their nuclear early warning system and the positioning of US aircraft carriers with nuclear-capable planes. He expects the Kursk operation to be followed by air strikes on strategic infrastructure deep within Russia. Many people will scoff at that possibility. The same people assured us that Ukraine would never use long-range missiles, and we see how that turned out. If the Russians believe we're preparing for a nuclear first strike, they'll be forced to react accordingly. Putting them in that position would be the worst US blunder, not just since Korea, but possibly ever. And that's to say nothing of the worsening situation in the Middle East and the South China Sea.

Obama once said, "Never underestimate Joe's ability to f*** things up." If only he'd known how right he was.

---

If our media would only tell the truth about this war 80% of the most vicious Trump haters would vote for him in November.

As we are in very real risk of WW3.

Trump would negotiate a realistic settlement.

People desperately need to wake up.

---

"Freedom is not worth fighting for" - General Kai Bear

---

It's always the rear echelon pukes who are so Rambo ready to get someone else killed.

---

There are wars that we could envision ourselves fighting for. But fighting for oligarchs in the Ukraine is never something I'd risk my own blood for. Can't imagine any American volunteering to do so. But you can be sure that with as much corruption the US Left has with those oligarchs, that Americans will be asked to answer the call if needed.

TinFoilHatPreacherBear said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

ron.reagan said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Dmitri Simes, a former Nixon advisor who's now persona non grata in the West, had some interesting things to say recently. The Russians consider the invasion of Kursk to be a NATO operation. They also see it in conjunction with the attacks on their nuclear early warning system and the positioning of US aircraft carriers with nuclear-capable planes. He expects the Kursk operation to be followed by air strikes on strategic infrastructure deep within Russia. Many people will scoff at that possibility. The same people assured us that Ukraine would never use long-range missiles, and we see how that turned out. If the Russians believe we're preparing for a nuclear first strike, they'll be forced to react accordingly. Putting them in that position would be the worst US blunder, not just since Korea, but possibly ever. And that's to say nothing of the worsening situation in the Middle East and the South China Sea.

Obama once said, "Never underestimate Joe's ability to f*** things up." If only he'd known how right he was.

---

If our media would only tell the truth about this war 80% of the most vicious Trump haters would vote for him in November.

As we are in very real risk of WW3.

Trump would negotiate a realistic settlement.

People desperately need to wake up.

---

"Freedom is not worth fighting for" - General Kai Bear

---

It's always the rear echelon pukes who are so Rambo ready to get someone else killed.

---

There are wars that we could envision ourselves fighting for. But fighting for oligarchs in the Ukraine is never something I'd risk my own blood for. Can't imagine any American volunteering to do so. But you can be sure that with as much corruption the US Left has with those oligarchs, that Americans will be asked to answer the call if needed.

---

^ This.

it is not a coincidence that the Democrats magically have become neo-cons re:Ukraine.

Democrats are generally anti-democracy and anti-freedom, so there is only $$$ behind the sudden move to defend Ukraine.

Vote for Donald Trump


Restore common sense to our foreign policy.

KaiBear said:

---

Vote for Donald Trump


Restore common sense to our foreign policy.

---

eff me that is a riot!

J.R. said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

Vote for Donald Trump


Restore common sense to our foreign policy.

---

eff me that is a riot!

---

Yeah it's much better to fight a proxy war resulting in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of innocent people.

J.R. said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

Vote for Donald Trump


Restore common sense to our foreign policy.

---

eff me that is a riot!

---

It takes a special kinda fool to Believe the last 4 years have been better.

Fre3dombear said:

---

J.R. said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

Vote for Donald Trump


Restore common sense to our foreign policy.

---

eff me that is a riot!

---

It takes a special kinda fool to Believe the last 4 years have been better.

---

Fool? Now. I funny. Last 4 have worked really well for me! Keep watching foxy news.

meh... WW3 is Old Hat.

Get ahead of the curve by finding hidden caves / grottos and start digging bunkers and hideouts.

Gather pelting rocks and crushing stones for real epic battle! Collect branches / tree limbs / wooden staves and knives to create spears for battle and hunting.

WW4 - The End to the Beginning.

- el KKM

{ sipping covfefe }

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

it is not a coincidence that the Democrats magically have become neo-cons re:Ukraine.

Democrats are generally anti-democracy and anti-freedom, so there is only $$$ behind the sudden move to defend Ukraine.

---

Personally, I think it goes further than that. I remember for decades the Democrats loved the USSR. Their prominent politicians traveled there and never missed an opportunity to defend its interests.

Suddenly they hate Russia? I think this has far more to do with a visceral hatred for a nation that in their view apostatized from their communist faith, returned to its Orthodox Christian roots, and now is a nuclear armed opponent of their rainbow jihad.

The Democrats are the crowd outside Lot's house. For the neocons it might be about the money pipeline to the MIC, but for Dems I think it is personal.

FLBear5630 said:

---

It will start in ether Hawaii or Alaska for US involvement, not mainland. Maybe Panama Canal zone on the outside. If US goes full in and draft it will be a US state that is hit. Hawaii, Guam and Wake make most sense if China Alaska if Russia is lead, just to get US focusing outside of Europe.

Draft will occur and I would bet offer of citizenship for those that serve.

---

If I was Supreme Generalissimo of Pissedofistan and really want to take down the US, I'm not messing with escalation, Guam, or any of it. I'm using that wide open border and a dozen teams of 4 or 5 guys to carry out decentralized non-state attributable attacks on specific parts of the power grid courtesy of that wide open border.

You wake up tomorrow when the sun comes up because your alarm didn't go off, find out that your phone charged to 50% and has no signal, and there isn't any water coming out of the faucets...and the day gets worse from there.

Why do you think so many Chinese men of military age have entered the country illegally through Ecuador and the Darien Gap over the past four years? Its so that their military can carry out just this sort of decapitation attack in the event of hostilities.

J.R. said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

J.R. said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

Vote for Donald Trump


Restore common sense to our foreign policy.

---

eff me that is a riot!

---

It takes a special kinda fool to Believe the last 4 years have been better.

---

Fool? Now. I funny. Last 4 have worked really well for me! Keep watching foxy news.

---

Financially, life has been good for my family as well. But it doesn't take Fox News to see what the impact of MILLIONS of un vetted illegals is having in our towns across the country.

As folks are now taking their own videos and putting them on the internet.

Harris was a major part of the administration that invited this invasion.

Yet now you want to reward her by making this idiotic bimbo Commander in Chief ?

Dangerously short sighted.

KaiBear said:

---

J.R. said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

Vote for Donald Trump


Restore common sense to our foreign policy.

---

eff me that is a riot!

---

Yeah it's much better to fight a proxy war resulting in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of innocent people.

---

Than what alternative? What is your alternative when they roll 200k troops over the border of a Nation asking for US help? Non of our business? Turn your back? Don't offer any help? Ignore the any role we had in providing "implied" security guarantees?

Come on "real warrior" as someone that "really knows" what alternative to providing weapons for someone to defend themselves? What is your solution? Oh, yeah none of our business. Great Leadership...

FLBear5630 said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

J.R. said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

Vote for Donald Trump


Restore common sense to our foreign policy.

---

eff me that is a riot!

---

Yeah it's much better to fight a proxy war resulting in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of innocent people.

---

Than what alternative? What is your alternative when they roll 200k troops over the border of a Nation asking for US help? Non of our business? Turn your back? Don't offer any help? Ignore the any role we had in providing "implied" security guarantees?

Come on "real warrior" as someone that "really knows" what alternative to providing weapons for someone to defend themselves? What is your solution? Oh, yeah none of our business. Great Leadership...

---

Why do you bother to constantly to beg for my input ?

I can't fix you.

Get lost.

william said:

---

meh... WW3 is Old Hat.

Get ahead of the curve by finding hidden caves / grottos and start digging bunkers and hideouts.

Gather pelting rocks and crushing stones for real epic battle! Collect branches / tree limbs / wooden staves and knives to create spears for battle and hunting.

WW4 - The End to the Beginning.

- el KKM

{ sipping covfefe }

---

I do think anyone who can work a stick into a bow and string it up will have a big advantage. There are such huge stores of ammo, but in a post apocalyptic scenario, those are major troves that put a target on your back. Basic woodworking skills would be a huge bonus, as would the caves and grottos you describe.

Fun to think about.

-sipping coffee too

KaiBear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

J.R. said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

Vote for Donald Trump


Restore common sense to our foreign policy.

---

eff me that is a riot!

---

Yeah it's much better to fight a proxy war resulting in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of innocent people.

---

Than what alternative? What is your alternative when they roll 200k troops over the border of a Nation asking for US help? Non of our business? Turn your back? Don't offer any help? Ignore the any role we had in providing "implied" security guarantees?

Come on "real warrior" as someone that "really knows" what alternative to providing weapons for someone to defend themselves? What is your solution? Oh, yeah none of our business. Great Leadership...

---

Why do you bother to constantly to beg for my input ?

I can't fix you.

Get lost.

---

You can't tell him what we should have done instead? Criticize the present with no real alternative in mind?

Realitybites said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

it is not a coincidence that the Democrats magically have become neo-cons re:Ukraine.

Democrats are generally anti-democracy and anti-freedom, so there is only $$$ behind the sudden move to defend Ukraine.

---

Personally, I think it goes further than that. I remember for decades the Democrats loved the USSR. Their prominent politicians traveled there and never missed an opportunity to defend its interests.

Suddenly they hate Russia? I think this has far more to do with a visceral hatred for a nation that in their view apostatized from their communist faith, returned to its Orthodox Christian roots, and now is a nuclear armed opponent of their rainbow jihad.

The Democrats are the crowd outside Lot's house. For the neocons it might be about the money pipeline to the MIC, but for Dems I think it is personal.

---

Returned to Orthodox Christian roots? 6%of Russians regularly attend church. 14% say religion is important to them.

And have you been to Russia? Mass debauchery.

In recent history Dems have strongly opposed dictator/authoritarian types and supported the "little guy." I don't think their support of Ukraine goes much beyond that.

95% of our country supported freedom over Russia. It' been one of the few foreign policy issues on which we were unified. That is, until a faction of conservatives/Repubs suddenly became Putin fans.

sombear said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

it is not a coincidence that the Democrats magically have become neo-cons re:Ukraine.

Democrats are generally anti-democracy and anti-freedom, so there is only $$$ behind the sudden move to defend Ukraine.

---

Personally, I think it goes further than that. I remember for decades the Democrats loved the USSR. Their prominent politicians traveled there and never missed an opportunity to defend its interests.

Suddenly they hate Russia? I think this has far more to do with a visceral hatred for a nation that in their view apostatized from their communist faith, returned to its Orthodox Christian roots, and now is a nuclear armed opponent of their rainbow jihad.

The Democrats are the crowd outside Lot's house. For the neocons it might be about the money pipeline to the MIC, but for Dems I think it is personal.

---

Returned to Orthodox Christian roots? 6%of Russians regularly attend church. 14% say religion is important to them.

And have you been to Russia? Mass debauchery.

In recent history Dems have strongly opposed dictator/authoritarian types and supported the "little guy." I don't think their support of Ukraine goes much beyond that.

95% of our country supported freedom over Russia. It' been one of the few foreign policy issues on which we were unified. That is, until a faction of conservatives/Repubs suddenly became Putin fans.

---

Yep, the strange desire for a few here to make Russia the good guy is really strange. I personally don't like either the Ukraine or Russia, frankly they should both lose. Just unfortunate that losing means that regular joes lose their lives as opposed to the wealthy people who've made the policies.

Maybe someone can help me, I have yet to hear how a Russian win is healthy for the US. It won't change the Western oligarchy's control over our country's politics.

KaiBear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

J.R. said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

Vote for Donald Trump


Restore common sense to our foreign policy.

---

eff me that is a riot!

---

Yeah it's much better to fight a proxy war resulting in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of innocent people.

---

Than what alternative? What is your alternative when they roll 200k troops over the border of a Nation asking for US help? Non of our business? Turn your back? Don't offer any help? Ignore the any role we had in providing "implied" security guarantees?

Come on "real warrior" as someone that "really knows" what alternative to providing weapons for someone to defend themselves? What is your solution? Oh, yeah none of our business. Great Leadership...

---

Why do you bother to constantly to beg for my input ?

I can't fix you.

Get lost.

---

Because you continue to pontificate and bully everyone that disagrees with you.

But, as usual you have NO alternatives. No ways to make the situation better. Nothing but vitriol and arrogance. While offering no solutions but walk away and keep our money for our self. Or, tell us how you are an old age fitness model. That's why. Give some solutions... Or just put me on ignore.

Porteroso said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

J.R. said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

Vote for Donald Trump


Restore common sense to our foreign policy.

---

eff me that is a riot!

---

Yeah it's much better to fight a proxy war resulting in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of innocent people.

---

Than what alternative? What is your alternative when they roll 200k troops over the border of a Nation asking for US help? Non of our business? Turn your back? Don't offer any help? Ignore the any role we had in providing "implied" security guarantees?

Come on "real warrior" as someone that "really knows" what alternative to providing weapons for someone to defend themselves? What is your solution? Oh, yeah none of our business. Great Leadership...

---

Why do you bother to constantly to beg for my input ?

I can't fix you.

Get lost.

---

You can't tell him what we should have done instead? Criticize the present with no real alternative in mind?

---

You 'educate' him princess, from your bubble perspective.

The resulting dialogue will be very amusing.

FLBear5630 said:

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TinFoilHatPreacherBear said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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TinFoilHatPreacherBear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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KaiBear said:

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ron.reagan said:

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KaiBear said:

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ron.reagan said:

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KaiBear said:

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ron.reagan said:

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KaiBear said:

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ron.reagan said:

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KaiBear said:

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Realitybites said:

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The population of Ukraine has been cut in half compared to before the war. About a half million Ukrainians killed, the rest left the country.

---

These are horrible numbers and do not even reflect the hundreds of thousands of Ukrainian wounded.

Many of whom are permanently crippled.

And all due to the miscalculations of Putin and Biden over the 'merits' of NATO membership.

You Dems who are all hot about Harris because of abortion or because she is a woman…..keep in mind.

This fool went to Europe after Putin put over 200,000 soldiers along the Ukraine border …..and again called for Ukraine to join NATO.

Putin invaded shortly afterward.

Biden - Harris are responsible for the worst foreign policy blunder by the United States since the Korean War.

And yet you want THIS bimbo to be our Commander in Chief ?

Are you willing to live or die based on the decisions of this bimbo ?

---

You might want to poll all the dead Americans scattered around Asian jungles and middle eastern deserts.

---

You are so absolutely hopeless.

The next time you consider posting something so ridiculously stupid; just keep in mind......

it's not in fact 'clever'.

---

The point is that you were completely wrong and doubt you even agree with yourself

---

In the vain attempt to educate you.... READ about Truman's order to push US forces north to the Yalu river.

But since you are either perpetually stoned or terminally stupid just resume your polling of the dead .

---

Does the Yalu run all the way through Vietnam and Iraq? Otherwise I have no idea what your point is.

---

READ what happened when Truman ( and the Joint Chiefs ) ignored repeated warming from Mao and invaded
North Korea and approached the Yalu River.

The consequences of which impacted US realities in the far east including Vietnam.

---

Considering I've worked for Samsung half my life and spent a good part of my life in SK I'd say Truman helped pay my mortgage

---

Truman helped pay your mortgage and got tens of thousands of UN troops killed.

---

No, North Korea invading got those UN troops killed. Same with Ukraine, Russia invading got those Ukrainian kids killed. The fault lies with who invaded, blaming a Nation for assisting one in trouble is not a fault.

---

Some pretty stark differences....

1. South Korea in 1950 was already within the American sphere of influence when Stalin and Mao authorized the Communists of North Korea to try and invade the South....Stalin had agreed to that at Yalta years before.

Not to mention the USA was acting under a broad consensus and UN mandate to provide military aid to the Republic of Korea.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Security_Council_Resolution_83

2. Ukraine has never been inside the American sphere of influence.

No one agreed to that.

And the UN has not authorized a war to throw out the Russians.

---

And no one is fighting the Russians but the Ukraines. You seem to forget we are selling weapons when asked by Ukraine. There is no UN force in Ukraine..

---

(Well let's pretend for a moment that the Pentagon is not directing the Ukrainians fight against Russia right now.)

For now we are just giving them money.

But tomorrow? Who can say….we have been sucked into wars before by a slow and steady deepening of our involvement.

---

We're giving more than money. I think we're giving Equipment, arms, training personne.

---

Ok, when I say equipment, munitions and tech there is a training component. Selling or giving an F16 with just an instruction manual is pretty worthless.

First, the NATO played an active role in the creation of the current structure, when one of the Nations we gave assurances to for security is invaded you can't turn your back. I agree that troops ( on the ground combat, combat support and air troops taking part in the fighting) is not wanted. Supplying (including training on new weapon systems) Ukraine to defend itself is justified. If we are to have any credibility.

Second, a united NATO front is the best way to prevent an escalation. NATOs actions in Ukraine are helping keep other areas free, Taiwan, S Korea, etc..

We disagree, I see Ukraine as the proper response.

---

I don't think I've tried to make the point that helping the Ukraine is wrong. My main argument is that I think there will come a point that money isn't enough and we get sucked in and other countries take advantage of that opportunity . I think the longer it goes, the more money we throw at it, the risk to getting sucked in greatly increases. The more desperate the Russians become actually increases the risk as well imo because they become unpredictable, and the options can get more extreme.

---

We don't. It is as simple as that. Short of Russia invading NATO, I do not support using US troops. But, I do believe we owe Ukraine support in other ways due to the 1990's and the implied commitments made.

Until I see a change, I have to give the Admin the benefit of the doubt. I may not like them, but I have to call a spade a spade. We have not committed troops.

---

What did you call me?

KaiBear said:

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Porteroso said:

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KaiBear said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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KaiBear said:

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J.R. said:

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KaiBear said:

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Vote for Donald Trump


Restore common sense to our foreign policy.

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eff me that is a riot!

---

Yeah it's much better to fight a proxy war resulting in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of innocent people.

---

Than what alternative? What is your alternative when they roll 200k troops over the border of a Nation asking for US help? Non of our business? Turn your back? Don't offer any help? Ignore the any role we had in providing "implied" security guarantees?

Come on "real warrior" as someone that "really knows" what alternative to providing weapons for someone to defend themselves? What is your solution? Oh, yeah none of our business. Great Leadership...

---

Why do you bother to constantly to beg for my input ?

I can't fix you.

Get lost.

---

You can't tell him what we should have done instead? Criticize the present with no real alternative in mind?

---

You 'educate' him princess, from your bubble perspective.

The resulting dialogue will be very amusing.

---

If you're going to dip out of a discussion, just stop posting. Useless to post insults only. A little content plz.

Fre3dombear said:

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J.R. said:

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KaiBear said:

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Vote for Donald Trump


Restore common sense to our foreign policy.

---

eff me that is a riot!

---

It takes a special kinda fool to Believe the last 4 years have been better.

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JR made millions in the last 4 years.. he loves Democrat rule.

KaiBear said:

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Porteroso said:

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KaiBear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

J.R. said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

Vote for Donald Trump


Restore common sense to our foreign policy.

---

eff me that is a riot!

---

Yeah it's much better to fight a proxy war resulting in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of innocent people.

---

Than what alternative? What is your alternative when they roll 200k troops over the border of a Nation asking for US help? Non of our business? Turn your back? Don't offer any help? Ignore the any role we had in providing "implied" security guarantees?

Come on "real warrior" as someone that "really knows" what alternative to providing weapons for someone to defend themselves? What is your solution? Oh, yeah none of our business. Great Leadership...

---

Why do you bother to constantly to beg for my input ?

I can't fix you.

Get lost.

---

You can't tell him what we should have done instead? Criticize the present with no real alternative in mind?

---

You 'educate' him princess, from your bubble perspective.

The resulting dialogue will be very amusing.

---

They should ask trump. That moron failed business man somehow managed to prevent it.

Mitch Blood Green said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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TinFoilHatPreacherBear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

TinFoilHatPreacherBear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

ron.reagan said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

ron.reagan said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

ron.reagan said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

ron.reagan said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

The population of Ukraine has been cut in half compared to before the war. About a half million Ukrainians killed, the rest left the country.

---

These are horrible numbers and do not even reflect the hundreds of thousands of Ukrainian wounded.

Many of whom are permanently crippled.

And all due to the miscalculations of Putin and Biden over the 'merits' of NATO membership.

You Dems who are all hot about Harris because of abortion or because she is a woman…..keep in mind.

This fool went to Europe after Putin put over 200,000 soldiers along the Ukraine border …..and again called for Ukraine to join NATO.

Putin invaded shortly afterward.

Biden - Harris are responsible for the worst foreign policy blunder by the United States since the Korean War.

And yet you want THIS bimbo to be our Commander in Chief ?

Are you willing to live or die based on the decisions of this bimbo ?

---

You might want to poll all the dead Americans scattered around Asian jungles and middle eastern deserts.

---

You are so absolutely hopeless.

The next time you consider posting something so ridiculously stupid; just keep in mind......

it's not in fact 'clever'.

---

The point is that you were completely wrong and doubt you even agree with yourself

---

In the vain attempt to educate you.... READ about Truman's order to push US forces north to the Yalu river.

But since you are either perpetually stoned or terminally stupid just resume your polling of the dead .

---

Does the Yalu run all the way through Vietnam and Iraq? Otherwise I have no idea what your point is.

---

READ what happened when Truman ( and the Joint Chiefs ) ignored repeated warming from Mao and invaded
North Korea and approached the Yalu River.

The consequences of which impacted US realities in the far east including Vietnam.

---

Considering I've worked for Samsung half my life and spent a good part of my life in SK I'd say Truman helped pay my mortgage

---

Truman helped pay your mortgage and got tens of thousands of UN troops killed.

---

No, North Korea invading got those UN troops killed. Same with Ukraine, Russia invading got those Ukrainian kids killed. The fault lies with who invaded, blaming a Nation for assisting one in trouble is not a fault.

---

Some pretty stark differences....

1. South Korea in 1950 was already within the American sphere of influence when Stalin and Mao authorized the Communists of North Korea to try and invade the South....Stalin had agreed to that at Yalta years before.

Not to mention the USA was acting under a broad consensus and UN mandate to provide military aid to the Republic of Korea.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Security_Council_Resolution_83

2. Ukraine has never been inside the American sphere of influence.

No one agreed to that.

And the UN has not authorized a war to throw out the Russians.

---

And no one is fighting the Russians but the Ukraines. You seem to forget we are selling weapons when asked by Ukraine. There is no UN force in Ukraine..

---

(Well let's pretend for a moment that the Pentagon is not directing the Ukrainians fight against Russia right now.)

For now we are just giving them money.

But tomorrow? Who can say….we have been sucked into wars before by a slow and steady deepening of our involvement.

---

We're giving more than money. I think we're giving Equipment, arms, training personne.

---

Ok, when I say equipment, munitions and tech there is a training component. Selling or giving an F16 with just an instruction manual is pretty worthless.

First, the NATO played an active role in the creation of the current structure, when one of the Nations we gave assurances to for security is invaded you can't turn your back. I agree that troops ( on the ground combat, combat support and air troops taking part in the fighting) is not wanted. Supplying (including training on new weapon systems) Ukraine to defend itself is justified. If we are to have any credibility.

Second, a united NATO front is the best way to prevent an escalation. NATOs actions in Ukraine are helping keep other areas free, Taiwan, S Korea, etc..

We disagree, I see Ukraine as the proper response.

---

I don't think I've tried to make the point that helping the Ukraine is wrong. My main argument is that I think there will come a point that money isn't enough and we get sucked in and other countries take advantage of that opportunity . I think the longer it goes, the more money we throw at it, the risk to getting sucked in greatly increases. The more desperate the Russians become actually increases the risk as well imo because they become unpredictable, and the options can get more extreme.

---

We don't. It is as simple as that. Short of Russia invading NATO, I do not support using US troops. But, I do believe we owe Ukraine support in other ways due to the 1990's and the implied commitments made.

Until I see a change, I have to give the Admin the benefit of the doubt. I may not like them, but I have to call a spade a spade. We have not committed troops.

---

What did you call me?

---

Pretty sure FLBear was commenting on card suits, not Froot Loops.