FLBear5630 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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BearFan33 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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BearFan33 said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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ShooterTX said:

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Been away for awhile.
Don't have time right now to read everything here.

Had anyone addressed the 2nd commandment, and why it's missing from the catholic version of the 10 commandments?
I have heard Catholics defend this by saying that the 2nd is just part of the law against false gods... so it's redundant and doesn't need to be included. That seems lie a very weak excuse for eliminating something that God spoke. Why do Catholics need to edit God?
Is it because God specifically says not to bow down to graven images?
Exodus 20:4-5 NIV
[4] "You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. [5] You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,

Of course the Catholics say that they don't bow down or worship the images of Mary, but...

https://www.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=pfbid02ACJAiPbXqGojMeBDRvrS3P9YeSmj4EmwUGNUiAZaihTRTzTHYg85CwFD9PKMdpgMl&id=100068429748592

https://images.app.goo.gl/oN3ZKQssSKUy1EUAA

https://images.app.goo.gl/jiEa5fZ3dDHwhZec6

https://images.app.goo.gl/zXYjFmtm1edKd2sE8

But hey.... no prayers, bowing or worship to an image going on here, right?

---

The Catechism 2112 addresses the 1st Commandment and idolatry.

The Catholic Church uses St Augustine's numbering of the 10 Commandments. You know him, the guy earlier in the thread you guys were saying was the authority on either Mary, Sola Scriptura or one of the Protestant believes. It changes depending on the subject which ones any of us believe.

If I remember correctly Lutherans and Catholics use St Augustine, Catholic Orthodox and Protestants use Origen's version. They differ. We won't agree that the Catechism addresses it in 2112, as the Catholics and Protestants haven't for 1500 years.

My understanding is the difference lies in whether you are worshiping God or a false God. Once again, we won't agree.

So, do we want to continue to fight the Reformation? It will pretty much go as it has for 1500 years and the last 2 weeks. Both sides say something, the other side says they are wrong. The question is do we want to go to insults or skip that part?

---

Good Lord - what does the numbering of the Ten Commandments have to do with the fact that Roman Catholics are breaking the one about idols??

---

Idolatry
2112 The first commandment condemns polytheism. It requires man neither to believe in, nor to venerate, other divinities than the one true God. Scripture constantly recalls this rejection of "idols, (of) silver and gold, the work of men's hands. They have mouths, but do not speak; eyes, but do not see." These empty idols make their worshippers empty: "Those who make them are like them; so are all who trust in them."42 God, however, is the "living God"43 who gives life and intervenes in history.

2113 Idolatry not only refers to false pagan worship. It remains a constant temptation to faith. Idolatry consists in divinizing what is not God. Man commits idolatry whenever he honors and reveres a creature in place of God, whether this be gods or demons (for example, satanism), power, pleasure, race, ancestors, the state, money, etc. Jesus says, "You cannot serve God and mammon."44 Many martyrs died for not adoring "the Beast"45 refusing even to simulate such worship. Idolatry rejects the unique Lordship of God; it is therefore incompatible with communion with God.46

2114 Human life finds its unity in the adoration of the one God. the commandment to worship the Lord alone integrates man and saves him from an endless disintegration. Idolatry is a perversion of man's innate religious sense. An idolater is someone who "transfers his indestructible notion of God to anything other than God."47


There you go, that is what Catholics believe, we do not believe in idolatry. Like it or not.

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Copilot's thoughts.....

The key to understanding why Catholics praying to Mary and the saints is not considered idol worship lies in the distinction between worship and veneration in Catholic theology.

1. Worship vs. Veneration

• Worship (latria) is due to God alone. It involves adoration and is reserved for the Holy TrinityFather, Son, and Holy Spirit.
• Veneration (dulia) is the honor given to saints. It's a form of deep respect, not worship.
• Hyperdulia is a special veneration given to Mary because of her unique role as the Mother of God, but it still falls short of worship.

2. Role of Saints and Mary
Catholics believe that:

• Saints are friends of God who are alive in heaven and can intercede (pray) for us.
• Asking a saint to pray for you is similar to asking a friend or family member to pray for you.
• Mary, as the mother of Jesus, holds a special place and is seen as a powerful intercessor.

3. Biblical and Historical Roots

• Catholics point to passages like Revelation 5:8 and Revelation 8:3-4, which depict the saints in heaven offering prayers to God.
• The practice of honoring saints dates back to the early Church, where martyrs were remembered and their intercession sought.

4. No Divine Power Attributed

• Catholics do not believe that Mary or the saints have divine power on their own.
• All grace and miracles come from God; saints are simply channels through whom God may act.

Summary
So, in Catholic understanding:

• Praying to Mary or the saints is not idol worship because it's not worship at all.
• It's a request for intercession, not an act of adoration.
• Worship is reserved for God alone.

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Can an honest person truly believe there is no act of adoration of Mary, when they bow to and kiss statues of Mary, pray to her, sing hymns of her in church, hold numerous festivals in her honor throughout the year, have pictures and statues of her all over their house, and have prayers of her which call her "sovereign", "ruler of my house", "peacemaker between sinners and God", "Mediatrix", "god of this world", "our hope and refuge", and they "place their salvation in her hands"?? How is any of this not divinization of Mary?

Can an honest person truly say this isn't worship and idolatry?

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Sounds like Some people go overboard

If you ask them who's boss I'm sure the sane Catholics would say "God"

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No, not just "some" people - all this is fully endorsed by their Magisterium, and thus defines the entire Roman Catholic Church. Catholics believing that the boss is "God" is of no credit to them - the demons believe the same (James 2:9).

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And Catholics can't understand how you go to Church without communion each week or believe they don't need confession. It is beyond me to why even go? You guys act like Bible Study is the same as celebrating the sacrament of communion. It is really unbelievable.

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Christians can confess to Jesus directly, they don't need priests. There is nothing in Scripture that says communion needs to be held each week. Christian churches are free to decide when and how often. Jesus cares about our hearts, not what certain rites and rituals we carry out. If one has a heart of worship during Bible study, it is just as pleasing to God as performing communion. Even if a Christian lives way out nowhere, and he doesn't do communion in a church, but every time he eats his meal he remembers what Jesus did for him ("do this in remembrance of me") and he is thankful to Jesus with all his heart, then Jesus is just as pleased. God is not impressed with all the pomp and circumstance of rituals in expensive church buildings, he loves a thankful, humble heart that truly seeks him.

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More power to you. That is your belief and you are comfortable.. it brings you closer and you believe you are following God's word in good faith. No one is taking that from you.

Please provide Catholics the same courtesy. No Catholic goes into Church to get one over on God. Or doesn't believe they are following God's will.

But you won't.... You will continue to call balls and strikes as if YOU are the cosmic umpire.

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I do not want you to be comfortable, if you are believing in a false Jesus. The Jesus of the Bible is the Christ who died once for all sin. His sacrifice was sufficient to pay the full penalty of our sins. If you believe that you must suffer in Purgatory to be cleansed of your sins, then you are putting your faith in a false Jesus. The Apostles did not teach that Jesus paid for some of the penalty of sin, and that we must pay for the rest of it in Purgatory.

You can study the OT and the NT, the prophets, the Psalms, the Gospels... none of it describes this idea of Purgatory or a second payment or a completion after death of Jesus sacrifice. All of the prophets spoke of a Messiah who would bring salvation, not a partial salvation from sin.

I don't want you to think you are in relationship with Jesus, if you are believing in a false Jesus. James 2 makes it quite clear that you must put your faith in the one, true Jesus. If you put your faith in a Jesus who did most of the work, but there is other works necessary for salvation & cleansing from sin... then you are putting your faith in a false Jesus.

I can't speak for everyone, but that is why I am posting here. Not to get one over on anyone... but to hopefully encourage folks to study the scriptures, as Jesus instructed us to do. When you read the prophesies of the coming Messiah in the OT, you will not read about a partial salvation or a partial cleansing from sin.

I know that Catholics have argued against these passages for centuries, but think about it. Do you really want to base your faith upon the same men who used "Holy Inquisitors" to imprison & execute thousands of Christians who disagreed with the authority of the Catholic Church? Does this seem like the infallible actions of an infallible church? The Pope himself ordered that the remains of Wycliffe be dug up and desecrated because Wycliffe had been outspoken against the corruption within the Catholic church. Is this group worthy to be the basis for your beliefs? Or should you base your faith on the Word of God instead?

william said:

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It has always seemed strange that we are supposed to see these costumes and think "oh my... these guys must be far more important than me".

God did away with the priesthood, when Jesus died on the cross.
"It is finished." - Jesus

1 Peter 2: 4-5
4 As you come to him, the living Stonerejected by humans but chosen by God and precious to him 5 you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house[a] to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

And again in the writings of Peter:
9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God's special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. 10 Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.

Take note that Peter wasn't writing to his magisterium or some special group of church leaders... he was writing to ALL believers "scattered throughout the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, 2 who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood"

We do not need men in silly costumes to act as priests anymore. We have Jesus.

Coke Bear said:

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ShooterTX said:

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Nice words, but as I stated in an earlier post.... there is no difference in the way a pagan treats his false gods, to the way a Catholic treats Mary. It is worship, even if you try to make up a new word like "Hyperdulia", so that you can say it is something other than worship.

The word 'jogging" is very different than the word "running", and yet there are few people on the planet who could observe the distinct differences between them in action.

The practice of "hyperdulia" is no different than the practice of "worship". Building shrines, altars and idols of Mary and then bowing before them, offering up prayers and offerings to them.... all of this is idolatry, even if you give it a different name.

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Is it wrong to bow or kneel before a cross?

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If you are bowing or kneeling in prayer to Jesus.... no.

If you are bowing or kneeling in reverance to a piece of wood... yes.

If you are bowing or kneeling before a cross in prayer to Mary or a Saint... yes.

Do you believe it is wrong to bow or kneel before a statue or image of Mary? There is a big difference here. No one bows or kneels before a cross because the have Hyperdulia for a cross. They are doing this to worship Jesus. Meanwhile catholics will argue that they are bowing or kneeling before the image of Mary out of Hyperdulia to Mary.

Hyperdulia is the exact same thing as worship. It's sorta like saying that I have a sedan buy my British friend drives a salon. Two different words for the exact same thing.

Maybe you can enlighten us all... give us the exact difference between Hyperdulia and worship. How does the hyperdulia of Mary look any different than the worship of Mary? Be specific.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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ShooterTX said:

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Been away for awhile.
Don't have time right now to read everything here.

Had anyone addressed the 2nd commandment, and why it's missing from the catholic version of the 10 commandments?
I have heard Catholics defend this by saying that the 2nd is just part of the law against false gods... so it's redundant and doesn't need to be included. That seems lie a very weak excuse for eliminating something that God spoke. Why do Catholics need to edit God?
Is it because God specifically says not to bow down to graven images?
Exodus 20:4-5 NIV
[4] "You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. [5] You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,

Of course the Catholics say that they don't bow down or worship the images of Mary, but...

https://www.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=pfbid02ACJAiPbXqGojMeBDRvrS3P9YeSmj4EmwUGNUiAZaihTRTzTHYg85CwFD9PKMdpgMl&id=100068429748592

https://images.app.goo.gl/oN3ZKQssSKUy1EUAA

https://images.app.goo.gl/jiEa5fZ3dDHwhZec6

https://images.app.goo.gl/zXYjFmtm1edKd2sE8

But hey.... no prayers, bowing or worship to an image going on here, right?

---

The Catechism 2112 addresses the 1st Commandment and idolatry.

The Catholic Church uses St Augustine's numbering of the 10 Commandments. You know him, the guy earlier in the thread you guys were saying was the authority on either Mary, Sola Scriptura or one of the Protestant believes. It changes depending on the subject which ones any of us believe.

If I remember correctly Lutherans and Catholics use St Augustine, Catholic Orthodox and Protestants use Origen's version. They differ. We won't agree that the Catechism addresses it in 2112, as the Catholics and Protestants haven't for 1500 years.

My understanding is the difference lies in whether you are worshiping God or a false God. Once again, we won't agree.

So, do we want to continue to fight the Reformation? It will pretty much go as it has for 1500 years and the last 2 weeks. Both sides say something, the other side says they are wrong. The question is do we want to go to insults or skip that part?

---

Good Lord - what does the numbering of the Ten Commandments have to do with the fact that Roman Catholics are breaking the one about idols??

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They are not. You argue by assertion and beg the question. Liar.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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ShooterTX said:

---

Been away for awhile.
Don't have time right now to read everything here.

Had anyone addressed the 2nd commandment, and why it's missing from the catholic version of the 10 commandments?
I have heard Catholics defend this by saying that the 2nd is just part of the law against false gods... so it's redundant and doesn't need to be included. That seems lie a very weak excuse for eliminating something that God spoke. Why do Catholics need to edit God?
Is it because God specifically says not to bow down to graven images?
Exodus 20:4-5 NIV
[4] "You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. [5] You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,

Of course the Catholics say that they don't bow down or worship the images of Mary, but...

https://www.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=pfbid02ACJAiPbXqGojMeBDRvrS3P9YeSmj4EmwUGNUiAZaihTRTzTHYg85CwFD9PKMdpgMl&id=100068429748592

https://images.app.goo.gl/oN3ZKQssSKUy1EUAA

https://images.app.goo.gl/jiEa5fZ3dDHwhZec6

https://images.app.goo.gl/zXYjFmtm1edKd2sE8

But hey.... no prayers, bowing or worship to an image going on here, right?

---

The Catechism 2112 addresses the 1st Commandment and idolatry.

The Catholic Church uses St Augustine's numbering of the 10 Commandments. You know him, the guy earlier in the thread you guys were saying was the authority on either Mary, Sola Scriptura or one of the Protestant believes. It changes depending on the subject which ones any of us believe.

If I remember correctly Lutherans and Catholics use St Augustine, Catholic Orthodox and Protestants use Origen's version. They differ. We won't agree that the Catechism addresses it in 2112, as the Catholics and Protestants haven't for 1500 years.

My understanding is the difference lies in whether you are worshiping God or a false God. Once again, we won't agree.

So, do we want to continue to fight the Reformation? It will pretty much go as it has for 1500 years and the last 2 weeks. Both sides say something, the other side says they are wrong. The question is do we want to go to insults or skip that part?

---

Good Lord - what does the numbering of the Ten Commandments have to do with the fact that Roman Catholics are breaking the one about idols??

---

Idolatry
2112 The first commandment condemns polytheism. It requires man neither to believe in, nor to venerate, other divinities than the one true God. Scripture constantly recalls this rejection of "idols, (of) silver and gold, the work of men's hands. They have mouths, but do not speak; eyes, but do not see." These empty idols make their worshippers empty: "Those who make them are like them; so are all who trust in them."42 God, however, is the "living God"43 who gives life and intervenes in history.

2113 Idolatry not only refers to false pagan worship. It remains a constant temptation to faith. Idolatry consists in divinizing what is not God. Man commits idolatry whenever he honors and reveres a creature in place of God, whether this be gods or demons (for example, satanism), power, pleasure, race, ancestors, the state, money, etc. Jesus says, "You cannot serve God and mammon."44 Many martyrs died for not adoring "the Beast"45 refusing even to simulate such worship. Idolatry rejects the unique Lordship of God; it is therefore incompatible with communion with God.46

2114 Human life finds its unity in the adoration of the one God. the commandment to worship the Lord alone integrates man and saves him from an endless disintegration. Idolatry is a perversion of man's innate religious sense. An idolater is someone who "transfers his indestructible notion of God to anything other than God."47


There you go, that is what Catholics believe, we do not believe in idolatry. Like it or not.

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Roman Catholics are doing to Mary exactly what they're describing there - "divinizing what is not God", "honors and reveres a creature in place of God", "you cannot SERVE God and mammon (the Greek word for "serve" there has its root in the word "dulia", which Catholics say is what they're doing to Mary.

And the second commandment is specifically about GRAVEN IMAGES, not just idolatry per se.

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Hail Mary, full of grace. The Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.

Holy Mary, mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen.

BTD, show us where the idolatry is.

ShooterTX said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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BearFan33 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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BearFan33 said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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ShooterTX said:

---

Been away for awhile.
Don't have time right now to read everything here.

Had anyone addressed the 2nd commandment, and why it's missing from the catholic version of the 10 commandments?
I have heard Catholics defend this by saying that the 2nd is just part of the law against false gods... so it's redundant and doesn't need to be included. That seems lie a very weak excuse for eliminating something that God spoke. Why do Catholics need to edit God?
Is it because God specifically says not to bow down to graven images?
Exodus 20:4-5 NIV
[4] "You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. [5] You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,

Of course the Catholics say that they don't bow down or worship the images of Mary, but...

https://www.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=pfbid02ACJAiPbXqGojMeBDRvrS3P9YeSmj4EmwUGNUiAZaihTRTzTHYg85CwFD9PKMdpgMl&id=100068429748592

https://images.app.goo.gl/oN3ZKQssSKUy1EUAA

https://images.app.goo.gl/jiEa5fZ3dDHwhZec6

https://images.app.goo.gl/zXYjFmtm1edKd2sE8

But hey.... no prayers, bowing or worship to an image going on here, right?

---

The Catechism 2112 addresses the 1st Commandment and idolatry.

The Catholic Church uses St Augustine's numbering of the 10 Commandments. You know him, the guy earlier in the thread you guys were saying was the authority on either Mary, Sola Scriptura or one of the Protestant believes. It changes depending on the subject which ones any of us believe.

If I remember correctly Lutherans and Catholics use St Augustine, Catholic Orthodox and Protestants use Origen's version. They differ. We won't agree that the Catechism addresses it in 2112, as the Catholics and Protestants haven't for 1500 years.

My understanding is the difference lies in whether you are worshiping God or a false God. Once again, we won't agree.

So, do we want to continue to fight the Reformation? It will pretty much go as it has for 1500 years and the last 2 weeks. Both sides say something, the other side says they are wrong. The question is do we want to go to insults or skip that part?

---

Good Lord - what does the numbering of the Ten Commandments have to do with the fact that Roman Catholics are breaking the one about idols??

---

Idolatry
2112 The first commandment condemns polytheism. It requires man neither to believe in, nor to venerate, other divinities than the one true God. Scripture constantly recalls this rejection of "idols, (of) silver and gold, the work of men's hands. They have mouths, but do not speak; eyes, but do not see." These empty idols make their worshippers empty: "Those who make them are like them; so are all who trust in them."42 God, however, is the "living God"43 who gives life and intervenes in history.

2113 Idolatry not only refers to false pagan worship. It remains a constant temptation to faith. Idolatry consists in divinizing what is not God. Man commits idolatry whenever he honors and reveres a creature in place of God, whether this be gods or demons (for example, satanism), power, pleasure, race, ancestors, the state, money, etc. Jesus says, "You cannot serve God and mammon."44 Many martyrs died for not adoring "the Beast"45 refusing even to simulate such worship. Idolatry rejects the unique Lordship of God; it is therefore incompatible with communion with God.46

2114 Human life finds its unity in the adoration of the one God. the commandment to worship the Lord alone integrates man and saves him from an endless disintegration. Idolatry is a perversion of man's innate religious sense. An idolater is someone who "transfers his indestructible notion of God to anything other than God."47


There you go, that is what Catholics believe, we do not believe in idolatry. Like it or not.

---

Copilot's thoughts.....

The key to understanding why Catholics praying to Mary and the saints is not considered idol worship lies in the distinction between worship and veneration in Catholic theology.

1. Worship vs. Veneration

• Worship (latria) is due to God alone. It involves adoration and is reserved for the Holy TrinityFather, Son, and Holy Spirit.
• Veneration (dulia) is the honor given to saints. It's a form of deep respect, not worship.
• Hyperdulia is a special veneration given to Mary because of her unique role as the Mother of God, but it still falls short of worship.

2. Role of Saints and Mary
Catholics believe that:

• Saints are friends of God who are alive in heaven and can intercede (pray) for us.
• Asking a saint to pray for you is similar to asking a friend or family member to pray for you.
• Mary, as the mother of Jesus, holds a special place and is seen as a powerful intercessor.

3. Biblical and Historical Roots

• Catholics point to passages like Revelation 5:8 and Revelation 8:3-4, which depict the saints in heaven offering prayers to God.
• The practice of honoring saints dates back to the early Church, where martyrs were remembered and their intercession sought.

4. No Divine Power Attributed

• Catholics do not believe that Mary or the saints have divine power on their own.
• All grace and miracles come from God; saints are simply channels through whom God may act.

Summary
So, in Catholic understanding:

• Praying to Mary or the saints is not idol worship because it's not worship at all.
• It's a request for intercession, not an act of adoration.
• Worship is reserved for God alone.

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Can an honest person truly believe there is no act of adoration of Mary, when they bow to and kiss statues of Mary, pray to her, sing hymns of her in church, hold numerous festivals in her honor throughout the year, have pictures and statues of her all over their house, and have prayers of her which call her "sovereign", "ruler of my house", "peacemaker between sinners and God", "Mediatrix", "god of this world", "our hope and refuge", and they "place their salvation in her hands"?? How is any of this not divinization of Mary?

Can an honest person truly say this isn't worship and idolatry?

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Sounds like Some people go overboard

If you ask them who's boss I'm sure the sane Catholics would say "God"

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No, not just "some" people - all this is fully endorsed by their Magisterium, and thus defines the entire Roman Catholic Church. Catholics believing that the boss is "God" is of no credit to them - the demons believe the same (James 2:9).

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And Catholics can't understand how you go to Church without communion each week or believe they don't need confession. It is beyond me to why even go? You guys act like Bible Study is the same as celebrating the sacrament of communion. It is really unbelievable.

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To be clear, some churches do communion every week, some every month and some 3-5 times per year.
I wouldn't be opposed to having communion every week, but the important part is gathering together to worship God and pray for one another.

We don't need a priest, as the Bible clearly states. Jesus came to be our only intermediary between us and the Father. We have a direct connection to Christ, so we don't need to confess our sins to some guy in a costume... we can confess our sins to one another, as the Bible clearly instructs us to do.

No one acts like Bible Study is the same as anything else. To study the Bible is a very important part of being a Christian. King David makes this very clear in the Psalms, and we see it again in the Proverbs. Throughout the New Testament we see Jesus and the Apostles confirming that the study of scripture is vitally important to be a follower of Christ. Communion is communion and Bible Study is Bible Study. They are both important in their own unique ways. However, no where do we read that eating the bread and taking the wine will do anything more than be a remembrance of the sacrifice of Jesus, and an act of worship & thanksgiving. It is important, but it is not a requirement for salvation or the forgiveness of sins. Communion and Bible Study have a very common element... both can draw us closer in our understanding & relationship to God... each in their own & unique ways. Likewise, Bible Study itself cannot bring salvation or the forgiveness of sins. We see that in the Pharisees who knew the text thoroughly, but missed out on the Messiah. To know the scriptures is not enough. To know God because of the scriptures, is the goal of Bible Study.

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Bible study is not worship. Preaching is not worship. Sunday School is not worship. Of course all these things are tremendously important, but they shouldn't be conflated with worship. Holy Communion ought to be the central act of Christian worship. Within the Eucharist, the entire bride of Christ both visible and invisible is mystically united outside the bounds of time and space and located in the eternal now as we partake of our Lord and Savior. That is worship. Listening to some guy in jeans and untucked shirt sans socks preach or teach is not.

ShooterTX said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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BearFan33 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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BearFan33 said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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ShooterTX said:

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Been away for awhile.
Don't have time right now to read everything here.

Had anyone addressed the 2nd commandment, and why it's missing from the catholic version of the 10 commandments?
I have heard Catholics defend this by saying that the 2nd is just part of the law against false gods... so it's redundant and doesn't need to be included. That seems lie a very weak excuse for eliminating something that God spoke. Why do Catholics need to edit God?
Is it because God specifically says not to bow down to graven images?
Exodus 20:4-5 NIV
[4] "You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. [5] You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,

Of course the Catholics say that they don't bow down or worship the images of Mary, but...

https://www.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=pfbid02ACJAiPbXqGojMeBDRvrS3P9YeSmj4EmwUGNUiAZaihTRTzTHYg85CwFD9PKMdpgMl&id=100068429748592

https://images.app.goo.gl/oN3ZKQssSKUy1EUAA

https://images.app.goo.gl/jiEa5fZ3dDHwhZec6

https://images.app.goo.gl/zXYjFmtm1edKd2sE8

But hey.... no prayers, bowing or worship to an image going on here, right?

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The Catechism 2112 addresses the 1st Commandment and idolatry.

The Catholic Church uses St Augustine's numbering of the 10 Commandments. You know him, the guy earlier in the thread you guys were saying was the authority on either Mary, Sola Scriptura or one of the Protestant believes. It changes depending on the subject which ones any of us believe.

If I remember correctly Lutherans and Catholics use St Augustine, Catholic Orthodox and Protestants use Origen's version. They differ. We won't agree that the Catechism addresses it in 2112, as the Catholics and Protestants haven't for 1500 years.

My understanding is the difference lies in whether you are worshiping God or a false God. Once again, we won't agree.

So, do we want to continue to fight the Reformation? It will pretty much go as it has for 1500 years and the last 2 weeks. Both sides say something, the other side says they are wrong. The question is do we want to go to insults or skip that part?

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Good Lord - what does the numbering of the Ten Commandments have to do with the fact that Roman Catholics are breaking the one about idols??

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Idolatry
2112 The first commandment condemns polytheism. It requires man neither to believe in, nor to venerate, other divinities than the one true God. Scripture constantly recalls this rejection of "idols, (of) silver and gold, the work of men's hands. They have mouths, but do not speak; eyes, but do not see." These empty idols make their worshippers empty: "Those who make them are like them; so are all who trust in them."42 God, however, is the "living God"43 who gives life and intervenes in history.

2113 Idolatry not only refers to false pagan worship. It remains a constant temptation to faith. Idolatry consists in divinizing what is not God. Man commits idolatry whenever he honors and reveres a creature in place of God, whether this be gods or demons (for example, satanism), power, pleasure, race, ancestors, the state, money, etc. Jesus says, "You cannot serve God and mammon."44 Many martyrs died for not adoring "the Beast"45 refusing even to simulate such worship. Idolatry rejects the unique Lordship of God; it is therefore incompatible with communion with God.46

2114 Human life finds its unity in the adoration of the one God. the commandment to worship the Lord alone integrates man and saves him from an endless disintegration. Idolatry is a perversion of man's innate religious sense. An idolater is someone who "transfers his indestructible notion of God to anything other than God."47


There you go, that is what Catholics believe, we do not believe in idolatry. Like it or not.

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Copilot's thoughts.....

The key to understanding why Catholics praying to Mary and the saints is not considered idol worship lies in the distinction between worship and veneration in Catholic theology.

1. Worship vs. Veneration

• Worship (latria) is due to God alone. It involves adoration and is reserved for the Holy TrinityFather, Son, and Holy Spirit.
• Veneration (dulia) is the honor given to saints. It's a form of deep respect, not worship.
• Hyperdulia is a special veneration given to Mary because of her unique role as the Mother of God, but it still falls short of worship.

2. Role of Saints and Mary
Catholics believe that:

• Saints are friends of God who are alive in heaven and can intercede (pray) for us.
• Asking a saint to pray for you is similar to asking a friend or family member to pray for you.
• Mary, as the mother of Jesus, holds a special place and is seen as a powerful intercessor.

3. Biblical and Historical Roots

• Catholics point to passages like Revelation 5:8 and Revelation 8:3-4, which depict the saints in heaven offering prayers to God.
• The practice of honoring saints dates back to the early Church, where martyrs were remembered and their intercession sought.

4. No Divine Power Attributed

• Catholics do not believe that Mary or the saints have divine power on their own.
• All grace and miracles come from God; saints are simply channels through whom God may act.

Summary
So, in Catholic understanding:

• Praying to Mary or the saints is not idol worship because it's not worship at all.
• It's a request for intercession, not an act of adoration.
• Worship is reserved for God alone.

---

Can an honest person truly believe there is no act of adoration of Mary, when they bow to and kiss statues of Mary, pray to her, sing hymns of her in church, hold numerous festivals in her honor throughout the year, have pictures and statues of her all over their house, and have prayers of her which call her "sovereign", "ruler of my house", "peacemaker between sinners and God", "Mediatrix", "god of this world", "our hope and refuge", and they "place their salvation in her hands"?? How is any of this not divinization of Mary?

Can an honest person truly say this isn't worship and idolatry?

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Sounds like Some people go overboard

If you ask them who's boss I'm sure the sane Catholics would say "God"

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No, not just "some" people - all this is fully endorsed by their Magisterium, and thus defines the entire Roman Catholic Church. Catholics believing that the boss is "God" is of no credit to them - the demons believe the same (James 2:9).

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And Catholics can't understand how you go to Church without communion each week or believe they don't need confession. It is beyond me to why even go? You guys act like Bible Study is the same as celebrating the sacrament of communion. It is really unbelievable.

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Christians can confess to Jesus directly, they don't need priests. There is nothing in Scripture that says communion needs to be held each week. Christian churches are free to decide when and how often. Jesus cares about our hearts, not what certain rites and rituals we carry out. If one has a heart of worship during Bible study, it is just as pleasing to God as performing communion. Even if a Christian lives way out nowhere, and he doesn't do communion in a church, but every time he eats his meal he remembers what Jesus did for him ("do this in remembrance of me") and he is thankful to Jesus with all his heart, then Jesus is just as pleased. God is not impressed with all the pomp and circumstance of rituals in expensive church buildings, he loves a thankful, humble heart that truly seeks him.

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More power to you. That is your belief and you are comfortable.. it brings you closer and you believe you are following God's word in good faith. No one is taking that from you.

Please provide Catholics the same courtesy. No Catholic goes into Church to get one over on God. Or doesn't believe they are following God's will.

But you won't.... You will continue to call balls and strikes as if YOU are the cosmic umpire.

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I do not want you to be comfortable, if you are believing in a false Jesus. The Jesus of the Bible is the Christ who died once for all sin. His sacrifice was sufficient to pay the full penalty of our sins. If you believe that you must suffer in Purgatory to be cleansed of your sins, then you are putting your faith in a false Jesus. The Apostles did not teach that Jesus paid for some of the penalty of sin, and that we must pay for the rest of it in Purgatory.

You can study the OT and the NT, the prophets, the Psalms, the Gospels... none of it describes this idea of Purgatory or a second payment or a completion after death of Jesus sacrifice. All of the prophets spoke of a Messiah who would bring salvation, not a partial salvation from sin.

I don't want you to think you are in relationship with Jesus, if you are believing in a false Jesus. James 2 makes it quite clear that you must put your faith in the one, true Jesus. If you put your faith in a Jesus who did most of the work, but there is other works necessary for salvation & cleansing from sin... then you are putting your faith in a false Jesus.

I can't speak for everyone, but that is why I am posting here. Not to get one over on anyone... but to hopefully encourage folks to study the scriptures, as Jesus instructed us to do. When you read the prophesies of the coming Messiah in the OT, you will not read about a partial salvation or a partial cleansing from sin.

I know that Catholics have argued against these passages for centuries, but think about it. Do you really want to base your faith upon the same men who used "Holy Inquisitors" to imprison & execute thousands of Christians who disagreed with the authority of the Catholic Church? Does this seem like the infallible actions of an infallible church? The Pope himself ordered that the remains of Wycliffe be dug up and desecrated because Wycliffe had been outspoken against the corruption within the Catholic church. Is this group worthy to be the basis for your beliefs? Or should you base your faith on the Word of God instead?

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Protestants are no better, just turn on the TV and watch your brethren pushing the same Christian line. Want a prayer, a check sure helps. Moslem? Jews? You can find evil men in any religion.

I do not question your faith. If you want to follow an individual like Luther, Wesley or Calvin. Have at it. You have your reasons. Hopefully we meet at the end.

Do I trust a Church that goes back to Peter or at the very worst Constantine. Whose Fathers are the closest to Christs time we have and wrote the information we are arguing? Yeah, I think these questions have been vetted and I will take my chances.

ShooterTX said:

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If you are bowing or kneeling in prayer to Jesus.... no.

If you are bowing or kneeling in reverance to a piece of wood... yes.

If you are bowing or kneeling before a cross in prayer to Mary or a Saint... yes.

Do you believe it is wrong to bow or kneel before a statue or image of Mary? There is a big difference here. No one bows or kneels before a cross because the have Hyperdulia for a cross. They are doing this to worship Jesus. Meanwhile catholics will argue that they are bowing or kneeling before the image of Mary out of Hyperdulia to Mary.

Hyperdulia is the exact same thing as worship. It's sorta like saying that I have a sedan buy my British friend drives a salon. Two different words for the exact same thing.

Maybe you can enlighten us all... give us the exact difference between Hyperdulia and worship. How does the hyperdulia of Mary look any different than the worship of Mary? Be specific.

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Does a man worship a woman when he drops to one knee and proposes?

When someone bows to a King or Queen, are they worshiping the King or Queen?

When Asians bow to one another, are they worshiping each other?

ShooterTX said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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BearFan33 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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BearFan33 said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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ShooterTX said:

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Been away for awhile.
Don't have time right now to read everything here.

Had anyone addressed the 2nd commandment, and why it's missing from the catholic version of the 10 commandments?
I have heard Catholics defend this by saying that the 2nd is just part of the law against false gods... so it's redundant and doesn't need to be included. That seems lie a very weak excuse for eliminating something that God spoke. Why do Catholics need to edit God?
Is it because God specifically says not to bow down to graven images?
Exodus 20:4-5 NIV
[4] "You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. [5] You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,

Of course the Catholics say that they don't bow down or worship the images of Mary, but...

https://www.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=pfbid02ACJAiPbXqGojMeBDRvrS3P9YeSmj4EmwUGNUiAZaihTRTzTHYg85CwFD9PKMdpgMl&id=100068429748592

https://images.app.goo.gl/oN3ZKQssSKUy1EUAA

https://images.app.goo.gl/jiEa5fZ3dDHwhZec6

https://images.app.goo.gl/zXYjFmtm1edKd2sE8

But hey.... no prayers, bowing or worship to an image going on here, right?

---

The Catechism 2112 addresses the 1st Commandment and idolatry.

The Catholic Church uses St Augustine's numbering of the 10 Commandments. You know him, the guy earlier in the thread you guys were saying was the authority on either Mary, Sola Scriptura or one of the Protestant believes. It changes depending on the subject which ones any of us believe.

If I remember correctly Lutherans and Catholics use St Augustine, Catholic Orthodox and Protestants use Origen's version. They differ. We won't agree that the Catechism addresses it in 2112, as the Catholics and Protestants haven't for 1500 years.

My understanding is the difference lies in whether you are worshiping God or a false God. Once again, we won't agree.

So, do we want to continue to fight the Reformation? It will pretty much go as it has for 1500 years and the last 2 weeks. Both sides say something, the other side says they are wrong. The question is do we want to go to insults or skip that part?

---

Good Lord - what does the numbering of the Ten Commandments have to do with the fact that Roman Catholics are breaking the one about idols??

---

Idolatry
2112 The first commandment condemns polytheism. It requires man neither to believe in, nor to venerate, other divinities than the one true God. Scripture constantly recalls this rejection of "idols, (of) silver and gold, the work of men's hands. They have mouths, but do not speak; eyes, but do not see." These empty idols make their worshippers empty: "Those who make them are like them; so are all who trust in them."42 God, however, is the "living God"43 who gives life and intervenes in history.

2113 Idolatry not only refers to false pagan worship. It remains a constant temptation to faith. Idolatry consists in divinizing what is not God. Man commits idolatry whenever he honors and reveres a creature in place of God, whether this be gods or demons (for example, satanism), power, pleasure, race, ancestors, the state, money, etc. Jesus says, "You cannot serve God and mammon."44 Many martyrs died for not adoring "the Beast"45 refusing even to simulate such worship. Idolatry rejects the unique Lordship of God; it is therefore incompatible with communion with God.46

2114 Human life finds its unity in the adoration of the one God. the commandment to worship the Lord alone integrates man and saves him from an endless disintegration. Idolatry is a perversion of man's innate religious sense. An idolater is someone who "transfers his indestructible notion of God to anything other than God."47


There you go, that is what Catholics believe, we do not believe in idolatry. Like it or not.

---

Copilot's thoughts.....

The key to understanding why Catholics praying to Mary and the saints is not considered idol worship lies in the distinction between worship and veneration in Catholic theology.

1. Worship vs. Veneration

• Worship (latria) is due to God alone. It involves adoration and is reserved for the Holy TrinityFather, Son, and Holy Spirit.
• Veneration (dulia) is the honor given to saints. It's a form of deep respect, not worship.
• Hyperdulia is a special veneration given to Mary because of her unique role as the Mother of God, but it still falls short of worship.

2. Role of Saints and Mary
Catholics believe that:

• Saints are friends of God who are alive in heaven and can intercede (pray) for us.
• Asking a saint to pray for you is similar to asking a friend or family member to pray for you.
• Mary, as the mother of Jesus, holds a special place and is seen as a powerful intercessor.

3. Biblical and Historical Roots

• Catholics point to passages like Revelation 5:8 and Revelation 8:3-4, which depict the saints in heaven offering prayers to God.
• The practice of honoring saints dates back to the early Church, where martyrs were remembered and their intercession sought.

4. No Divine Power Attributed

• Catholics do not believe that Mary or the saints have divine power on their own.
• All grace and miracles come from God; saints are simply channels through whom God may act.

Summary
So, in Catholic understanding:

• Praying to Mary or the saints is not idol worship because it's not worship at all.
• It's a request for intercession, not an act of adoration.
• Worship is reserved for God alone.

---

Can an honest person truly believe there is no act of adoration of Mary, when they bow to and kiss statues of Mary, pray to her, sing hymns of her in church, hold numerous festivals in her honor throughout the year, have pictures and statues of her all over their house, and have prayers of her which call her "sovereign", "ruler of my house", "peacemaker between sinners and God", "Mediatrix", "god of this world", "our hope and refuge", and they "place their salvation in her hands"?? How is any of this not divinization of Mary?

Can an honest person truly say this isn't worship and idolatry?

---

Sounds like Some people go overboard

If you ask them who's boss I'm sure the sane Catholics would say "God"

---

No, not just "some" people - all this is fully endorsed by their Magisterium, and thus defines the entire Roman Catholic Church. Catholics believing that the boss is "God" is of no credit to them - the demons believe the same (James 2:9).

---

And Catholics can't understand how you go to Church without communion each week or believe they don't need confession. It is beyond me to why even go? You guys act like Bible Study is the same as celebrating the sacrament of communion. It is really unbelievable.

---

Christians can confess to Jesus directly, they don't need priests. There is nothing in Scripture that says communion needs to be held each week. Christian churches are free to decide when and how often. Jesus cares about our hearts, not what certain rites and rituals we carry out. If one has a heart of worship during Bible study, it is just as pleasing to God as performing communion. Even if a Christian lives way out nowhere, and he doesn't do communion in a church, but every time he eats his meal he remembers what Jesus did for him ("do this in remembrance of me") and he is thankful to Jesus with all his heart, then Jesus is just as pleased. God is not impressed with all the pomp and circumstance of rituals in expensive church buildings, he loves a thankful, humble heart that truly seeks him.

---

More power to you. That is your belief and you are comfortable.. it brings you closer and you believe you are following God's word in good faith. No one is taking that from you.

Please provide Catholics the same courtesy. No Catholic goes into Church to get one over on God. Or doesn't believe they are following God's will.

But you won't.... You will continue to call balls and strikes as if YOU are the cosmic umpire.

---

I do not want you to be comfortable, if you are believing in a false Jesus. The Jesus of the Bible is the Christ who died once for all sin. His sacrifice was sufficient to pay the full penalty of our sins. If you believe that you must suffer in Purgatory to be cleansed of your sins, then you are putting your faith in a false Jesus. The Apostles did not teach that Jesus paid for some of the penalty of sin, and that we must pay for the rest of it in Purgatory.

You can study the OT and the NT, the prophets, the Psalms, the Gospels... none of it describes this idea of Purgatory or a second payment or a completion after death of Jesus sacrifice. All of the prophets spoke of a Messiah who would bring salvation, not a partial salvation from sin.

I don't want you to think you are in relationship with Jesus, if you are believing in a false Jesus. James 2 makes it quite clear that you must put your faith in the one, true Jesus. If you put your faith in a Jesus who did most of the work, but there is other works necessary for salvation & cleansing from sin... then you are putting your faith in a false Jesus.

I can't speak for everyone, but that is why I am posting here. Not to get one over on anyone... but to hopefully encourage folks to study the scriptures, as Jesus instructed us to do. When you read the prophesies of the coming Messiah in the OT, you will not read about a partial salvation or a partial cleansing from sin.

I know that Catholics have argued against these passages for centuries, but think about it. Do you really want to base your faith upon the same men who used "Holy Inquisitors" to imprison & execute thousands of Christians who disagreed with the authority of the Catholic Church? Does this seem like the infallible actions of an infallible church? The Pope himself ordered that the remains of Wycliffe be dug up and desecrated because Wycliffe had been outspoken against the corruption within the Catholic church. Is this group worthy to be the basis for your beliefs? Or should you base your faith on the Word of God instead?

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See the bolded in your writing. a page back you wrote:

Quote:

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We don't need a priest, as the Bible clearly states. Jesus came to be our only intermediary between us and the Father. We have a direct connection to Christ, so we don't need to confess our sins to some guy in a costume... we can confess our sins to one another, as the Bible clearly instructs us to do.

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You are clearly trying to offer spiritual direction by your own bolded words above. Jesus does not need you to be his intermediary, by your own words. Please reconcile the two positions.

I sense in your posting a sincere effort to exchange ideas and represent the Gospel of Jesus. You torch your own efforts with needless insults (see the italicized language). Sure, there are times where mockery can jar the senses and appropriately expose something wrong, but I don't think this is the card to play in this instance.... Just a word of advice.

Coke Bear said:

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ShooterTX said:

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If you are bowing or kneeling in prayer to Jesus.... no.

If you are bowing or kneeling in reverance to a piece of wood... yes.

If you are bowing or kneeling before a cross in prayer to Mary or a Saint... yes.

Do you believe it is wrong to bow or kneel before a statue or image of Mary? There is a big difference here. No one bows or kneels before a cross because the have Hyperdulia for a cross. They are doing this to worship Jesus. Meanwhile catholics will argue that they are bowing or kneeling before the image of Mary out of Hyperdulia to Mary.

Hyperdulia is the exact same thing as worship. It's sorta like saying that I have a sedan buy my British friend drives a salon. Two different words for the exact same thing.

Maybe you can enlighten us all... give us the exact difference between Hyperdulia and worship. How does the hyperdulia of Mary look any different than the worship of Mary? Be specific.

---

Does a man worship a woman when he drops to one knee and proposes?

When someone bows to a King or Queen, are they worshiping the King or Queen?

When Asians bow to one another, are they worshiping each other?

---

You are the most patient contributor on this message board.

+ 1

Coke Bear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Coke Bear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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You are continuing to fail to understand the concept: the Septuagint contained BOTH canonical and non-canonical writings. Simply quoting from or referencing the canonical part does not magically convert the non-canonical part into canon. This would be like saying someone quoting from Trump's bible would automatically make Trump's writing in the foreword part of the Bible.

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The Septuagint makes NO distinction between the canon and the Deuterocanon that claim exists. You are drawing a line base on YOUR beliefs.

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Neither does the Trump Bible make a distinction between Trump's foreword and the books of the Bible regarding their canonicity. Therefore Trump's foreword is part of the canon of the Bible. You would be drawing a line based on your beliefs.

See how stupid this argument is?

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Quite frankly, I do see the absurdity of your argument here.

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Well, good, that's the point. "My argument" is an analogy of yours.

Coke Bear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Coke Bear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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The primary (definitive) evidence that Jesus or his apostles did NOT use the apocryphal texts, is that they never quoted from them.

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They You mean other than the FACT that more than 75% of the OT is word-for-word form the Septuagint. Of Paul's 98 scriptural quotations, 95 are exactly from the Septuagint.

You are running from this fact.

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There is no need to run from a fact that has no relevance whatsoever. Whatever percentage of the OT and NT that is word for word from their Greek translation in the Septuagint, that's the percentage they are word for word from their CANONICAL counterparts in the Septuagint.

This is how you're arguing: "since the Old and New Testament is virtually word for word with the Old and New Testaments in the Trump Bible, that means that Trump's foreword in the Trump Bible is also canon."

All your arguments stem from the ridiculously flawed reasoning that just because the canonical books of the Septuagint was used, it meant that all of the non-canonical books of the Septuagint were considered canon too. You can recycle/repeat this argument or some variant of it all you want, it just won't magically make it true.

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You are really stretching here.

Was it coincidence that the drafters used that many exact quotes?

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I'm asking a serious question - do you really not understand the stupidity of your point? Why wouldn't the "drafters" use exact quotes from their own Greek translation of the Tanakh??

Coke Bear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Coke Bear said:

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Coke Bear said:

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-Given the fact that Pope Damasus I, at the Council of Rome in 382, endorsed the full 73-book canon of the Bible, when do you argue that Catholics were "adding books" to the Bible? Were the Deuterocanonical books in the first addition of the KJV?

---> Evidently, then, at this time.

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Well, this is the same time that the NT was ratified by the Church, so I suppose that you should accept the 46-book OT. Awesome! Welcome one step closer to the Truth of the Catholic Church! God Bless and Welcome Home! Please locate a Catholic Church near you and enroll in OCIA. Classes should start in September.

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Actually, the Roman Catholic Church didn't officially canonize the apocryphal books until the Council of Trent in 1546. Less than 500 years ago.

And your point that you're trying to make is utterly confusing - since I think the RCC added books to the canon of the Bible when 73 books were endorsed in 382..... that means I should accept the apocrypha?? That is completely incoherent. Maybe you shouldn't be posting in the middle of the night. Were you drinking? Get some sleep.

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No, you should accept the 73-book canon because that is the correct canon.

My point here is that the Council or Rome is the first to accept the NT as canon. If they got that right, then they got the OT correct.

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You've got to be kidding with that logic. Fallacy of composition of the worst kind. By that argument, I can say (from a Roman Catholic's perspective) that since Martin Luther got the perpetual virginity of Mary right, then it means he got the Reformation right as well.

I can't believe you actually typed that.

Coke Bear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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- the "Catholic Church" (universal church) was founded by Jesus. The "Roman Catholic Church" was founded when Constantine made Christianity the official religion of Rome (which caused Christianity there to compromise with pagan worship in Rome). The term "pope" was first used in the third century. Though this isn't the same meaning as what "pope" means to the Roman Catholic Church.

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Seriously, if you believe that Constantine "founded the Catholic Church", it may be the most embarrassing things that you've ever typed.

I thought you believed in research. What legitimate source did you obtain this information?

First, Constantine never made Christianity the "official religion of Rome". The Edict of Milan if 313 AD gave religious tolerance to Christians, allowing them to practice the religion openly without fear persecution.

Second, in 325 AD he invited bishops from the Roman empire to attend the Council of Nicaea to address the Arian heresy that was dividing the empire - hence - the Nicaean Creed which affirmed the divinity of Jesus.

Sylvester I was the Pope during this Council. He didn't attend, but he sent legates to attend.

Finally, the word "pope" is derived from the Latin word, "papa", meaning father. The "Pope" is just the Bishop of Rome. Forget the term POPE for a minute and tell me who was the first Bishop of Rome.

I've mentioned this book several times before, but it bears repeating. The best book on this topic is The Apostasy That Wasn't: The Extraordinary Story of the Unbreakable Early Church by Rod Bennett.

It's an easy and very interesting read that's meant for the popular level. It's a historical book that reads like a wonderful story. It's not meant to convert anyone. It's there to tell the remarkable story of what the Church went thru before and after the Council.

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Yes, it was Constantine's Edict of Milan and his own patronage in the Church which set the precedent of the Roman Emperor's influence in the Church (convoking ecumenical councils) that began the Roman influence over Christianity. It was Constantine's convoking of the Council of Nicaea which began Nicene Christianity (based on the Nicene Creed) which later became the official state religion of Rome by the Edict of Thessalonica in 380. Constantine was ultimately responsible for making Christianity the official religion of Rome, absolutely.

History shows that there wasn't a singular, ruling bishop in Rome until about the 140-150's AD. Up until then, the church in Rome was presided over by a group of presbyters (elders). The first clear evidence of there being a single bishop shows that it was probably Anicetus.

curtpenn said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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ShooterTX said:

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Been away for awhile.
Don't have time right now to read everything here.

Had anyone addressed the 2nd commandment, and why it's missing from the catholic version of the 10 commandments?
I have heard Catholics defend this by saying that the 2nd is just part of the law against false gods... so it's redundant and doesn't need to be included. That seems lie a very weak excuse for eliminating something that God spoke. Why do Catholics need to edit God?
Is it because God specifically says not to bow down to graven images?
Exodus 20:4-5 NIV
[4] "You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. [5] You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,

Of course the Catholics say that they don't bow down or worship the images of Mary, but...

https://www.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=pfbid02ACJAiPbXqGojMeBDRvrS3P9YeSmj4EmwUGNUiAZaihTRTzTHYg85CwFD9PKMdpgMl&id=100068429748592

https://images.app.goo.gl/oN3ZKQssSKUy1EUAA

https://images.app.goo.gl/jiEa5fZ3dDHwhZec6

https://images.app.goo.gl/zXYjFmtm1edKd2sE8

But hey.... no prayers, bowing or worship to an image going on here, right?

---

The Catechism 2112 addresses the 1st Commandment and idolatry.

The Catholic Church uses St Augustine's numbering of the 10 Commandments. You know him, the guy earlier in the thread you guys were saying was the authority on either Mary, Sola Scriptura or one of the Protestant believes. It changes depending on the subject which ones any of us believe.

If I remember correctly Lutherans and Catholics use St Augustine, Catholic Orthodox and Protestants use Origen's version. They differ. We won't agree that the Catechism addresses it in 2112, as the Catholics and Protestants haven't for 1500 years.

My understanding is the difference lies in whether you are worshiping God or a false God. Once again, we won't agree.

So, do we want to continue to fight the Reformation? It will pretty much go as it has for 1500 years and the last 2 weeks. Both sides say something, the other side says they are wrong. The question is do we want to go to insults or skip that part?

---

Good Lord - what does the numbering of the Ten Commandments have to do with the fact that Roman Catholics are breaking the one about idols??

---

They are not. You argue by assertion and beg the question. Liar.

---

No, it's pretty evident that they bow to statues of Mary and the saints. You'd have to be an idiot to not see that.

curtpenn said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

ShooterTX said:

---

Been away for awhile.
Don't have time right now to read everything here.

Had anyone addressed the 2nd commandment, and why it's missing from the catholic version of the 10 commandments?
I have heard Catholics defend this by saying that the 2nd is just part of the law against false gods... so it's redundant and doesn't need to be included. That seems lie a very weak excuse for eliminating something that God spoke. Why do Catholics need to edit God?
Is it because God specifically says not to bow down to graven images?
Exodus 20:4-5 NIV
[4] "You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. [5] You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,

Of course the Catholics say that they don't bow down or worship the images of Mary, but...

https://www.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=pfbid02ACJAiPbXqGojMeBDRvrS3P9YeSmj4EmwUGNUiAZaihTRTzTHYg85CwFD9PKMdpgMl&id=100068429748592

https://images.app.goo.gl/oN3ZKQssSKUy1EUAA

https://images.app.goo.gl/jiEa5fZ3dDHwhZec6

https://images.app.goo.gl/zXYjFmtm1edKd2sE8

But hey.... no prayers, bowing or worship to an image going on here, right?

---

The Catechism 2112 addresses the 1st Commandment and idolatry.

The Catholic Church uses St Augustine's numbering of the 10 Commandments. You know him, the guy earlier in the thread you guys were saying was the authority on either Mary, Sola Scriptura or one of the Protestant believes. It changes depending on the subject which ones any of us believe.

If I remember correctly Lutherans and Catholics use St Augustine, Catholic Orthodox and Protestants use Origen's version. They differ. We won't agree that the Catechism addresses it in 2112, as the Catholics and Protestants haven't for 1500 years.

My understanding is the difference lies in whether you are worshiping God or a false God. Once again, we won't agree.

So, do we want to continue to fight the Reformation? It will pretty much go as it has for 1500 years and the last 2 weeks. Both sides say something, the other side says they are wrong. The question is do we want to go to insults or skip that part?

---

Good Lord - what does the numbering of the Ten Commandments have to do with the fact that Roman Catholics are breaking the one about idols??

---

Idolatry
2112 The first commandment condemns polytheism. It requires man neither to believe in, nor to venerate, other divinities than the one true God. Scripture constantly recalls this rejection of "idols, (of) silver and gold, the work of men's hands. They have mouths, but do not speak; eyes, but do not see." These empty idols make their worshippers empty: "Those who make them are like them; so are all who trust in them."42 God, however, is the "living God"43 who gives life and intervenes in history.

2113 Idolatry not only refers to false pagan worship. It remains a constant temptation to faith. Idolatry consists in divinizing what is not God. Man commits idolatry whenever he honors and reveres a creature in place of God, whether this be gods or demons (for example, satanism), power, pleasure, race, ancestors, the state, money, etc. Jesus says, "You cannot serve God and mammon."44 Many martyrs died for not adoring "the Beast"45 refusing even to simulate such worship. Idolatry rejects the unique Lordship of God; it is therefore incompatible with communion with God.46

2114 Human life finds its unity in the adoration of the one God. the commandment to worship the Lord alone integrates man and saves him from an endless disintegration. Idolatry is a perversion of man's innate religious sense. An idolater is someone who "transfers his indestructible notion of God to anything other than God."47


There you go, that is what Catholics believe, we do not believe in idolatry. Like it or not.

---

Roman Catholics are doing to Mary exactly what they're describing there - "divinizing what is not God", "honors and reveres a creature in place of God", "you cannot SERVE God and mammon (the Greek word for "serve" there has its root in the word "dulia", which Catholics say is what they're doing to Mary.

And the second commandment is specifically about GRAVEN IMAGES, not just idolatry per se.

---

Hail Mary, full of grace. The Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.

Holy Mary, mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen.

BTD, show us where the idolatry is.

---

Oh, maybe it's that you're saying Mary's name in that prayer more times than you say God's? But can you deny that the prayer I actually was referring to (not the prayer you're mentioning here), which calls Mary: "sovereign", "ruler of my house", "peacemaker between sinners and God", "god of this world", "salvation of the universe", "Mediatrix", "our hope and our refuge", and to "place one's salvation in Mary's hands" - is heretical and idolatrous?

You'd have to be a blind fool to not see it.

Coke Bear said:

---

ShooterTX said:

---

If you are bowing or kneeling in prayer to Jesus.... no.

If you are bowing or kneeling in reverance to a piece of wood... yes.

If you are bowing or kneeling before a cross in prayer to Mary or a Saint... yes.

Do you believe it is wrong to bow or kneel before a statue or image of Mary? There is a big difference here. No one bows or kneels before a cross because the have Hyperdulia for a cross. They are doing this to worship Jesus. Meanwhile catholics will argue that they are bowing or kneeling before the image of Mary out of Hyperdulia to Mary.

Hyperdulia is the exact same thing as worship. It's sorta like saying that I have a sedan buy my British friend drives a salon. Two different words for the exact same thing.

Maybe you can enlighten us all... give us the exact difference between Hyperdulia and worship. How does the hyperdulia of Mary look any different than the worship of Mary? Be specific.

---

Does a man worship a woman when he drops to one knee and proposes?

When someone bows to a King or Queen, are they worshiping the King or Queen?

When Asians bow to one another, are they worshiping each other?

---

So because a man drops one knee and proposes, and people bow to kings and queens, and Asians bow to one another.....

....that means we can bow to a statue of anyone we want in church? Is this seriously your argument?

ShooterTX said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

ShooterTX said:

---

Been away for awhile.
Don't have time right now to read everything here.

Had anyone addressed the 2nd commandment, and why it's missing from the catholic version of the 10 commandments?
I have heard Catholics defend this by saying that the 2nd is just part of the law against false gods... so it's redundant and doesn't need to be included. That seems lie a very weak excuse for eliminating something that God spoke. Why do Catholics need to edit God?
Is it because God specifically says not to bow down to graven images?
Exodus 20:4-5 NIV
[4] "You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. [5] You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,

Of course the Catholics say that they don't bow down or worship the images of Mary, but...

https://www.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=pfbid02ACJAiPbXqGojMeBDRvrS3P9YeSmj4EmwUGNUiAZaihTRTzTHYg85CwFD9PKMdpgMl&id=100068429748592

https://images.app.goo.gl/oN3ZKQssSKUy1EUAA

https://images.app.goo.gl/jiEa5fZ3dDHwhZec6

https://images.app.goo.gl/zXYjFmtm1edKd2sE8

But hey.... no prayers, bowing or worship to an image going on here, right?

---

The Catechism 2112 addresses the 1st Commandment and idolatry.

The Catholic Church uses St Augustine's numbering of the 10 Commandments. You know him, the guy earlier in the thread you guys were saying was the authority on either Mary, Sola Scriptura or one of the Protestant believes. It changes depending on the subject which ones any of us believe.

If I remember correctly Lutherans and Catholics use St Augustine, Catholic Orthodox and Protestants use Origen's version. They differ. We won't agree that the Catechism addresses it in 2112, as the Catholics and Protestants haven't for 1500 years.

My understanding is the difference lies in whether you are worshiping God or a false God. Once again, we won't agree.

So, do we want to continue to fight the Reformation? It will pretty much go as it has for 1500 years and the last 2 weeks. Both sides say something, the other side says they are wrong. The question is do we want to go to insults or skip that part?

---

Good Lord - what does the numbering of the Ten Commandments have to do with the fact that Roman Catholics are breaking the one about idols??

---

Idolatry
2112 The first commandment condemns polytheism. It requires man neither to believe in, nor to venerate, other divinities than the one true God. Scripture constantly recalls this rejection of "idols, (of) silver and gold, the work of men's hands. They have mouths, but do not speak; eyes, but do not see." These empty idols make their worshippers empty: "Those who make them are like them; so are all who trust in them."42 God, however, is the "living God"43 who gives life and intervenes in history.

2113 Idolatry not only refers to false pagan worship. It remains a constant temptation to faith. Idolatry consists in divinizing what is not God. Man commits idolatry whenever he honors and reveres a creature in place of God, whether this be gods or demons (for example, satanism), power, pleasure, race, ancestors, the state, money, etc. Jesus says, "You cannot serve God and mammon."44 Many martyrs died for not adoring "the Beast"45 refusing even to simulate such worship. Idolatry rejects the unique Lordship of God; it is therefore incompatible with communion with God.46

2114 Human life finds its unity in the adoration of the one God. the commandment to worship the Lord alone integrates man and saves him from an endless disintegration. Idolatry is a perversion of man's innate religious sense. An idolater is someone who "transfers his indestructible notion of God to anything other than God."47


There you go, that is what Catholics believe, we do not believe in idolatry. Like it or not.

---

I am glad that the official statements do recognize that idolatry is a sin. That is good. However, the practice of bowing to statues, kissing statues, and especially doing this to statues of Mary... that is the text book definition of bowing to a graven image. Mary is not God... even the Catholic catechism agrees with that statement. However, many Catholics (including the Pope) pray prayers to Mary and pray more to Mary than to God. They sing songs to Mary. I know that the official statements claim that this is not worship, but "veneration"... but it is a distinction without a difference.

What is worship? The word is derived from the Old English weorscipe, meaning to venerate "worship, honour shown to an object or deity,[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worship#cite_note-Bosworth-2][2][/url] which has been etymologised as "worthiness or worth-ship"to give, at its simplest, worth to something.

So to venerate is to worship.

If you saw someone engaged in idolatry to a pagan god, what would they be doing? Offering up prayers, singing songs, declaring their devotion to the god, building altars & shrines to the god, creating statues & other forms of idols to the god..... yes, that is how we see someone engaged in idolatry to a pagan god... it is also exactly what hundreds of millions of catholics do around the world with Mary.

I know you want to believe that Catholics do not idolize Mary, but there is no difference between how Catholics treat Mary and Buddhist treat Buda.

We are supposed to pray to God for healing, protection, salvation, blessings,... and yet the Pope does this to Mary. Look again at these prayers offered up by the Pope, and show me where the Pope is asking Mary to ask Jesus for these things. He is not. He is directly asking Mary herself to give healing, blessings, forgiveness, etc.

I'm sorry to say it, but he Catholic statements and the Catholic practices do not line up. It is idolatry... unless you want to claim that Mary is part of the Trinity.

https://images.app.goo.gl/zXYjFmtm1edKd2sE8

https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=767552940317488&set=a.146917329047722&__cft__[0]=AZX7p-9NCVn-rEor6zD8l7ybXshIzgoodGXwQAWt2ZMB9R3sWwHRYUj-mzD75xHmHjccTCj9Kf0VOzzRsTNOv4wmPi_VSm8QBeb5srryZDYGmWCnwL3RxKTVZ2h6wABlAUOYEXt00699EjD88GY7IKzVMOUxoR1W4aMrp_7xUVpiaA&__tn__=EH-R

How can you look at these images and read these prayers, and not see the obvious worship & devotion to a human woman... not God, a woman. Granted, she was very blessed & honored... but that doesn't make her God.

---

As I said early on, seems like months ago, it is a practice that I do not take part. I have never done a novena, the Hail Mary is the Magnificat from the Bible and I do not take part in that aspect of Catholicism. But, that is me.

I know A LOT of women that do feel a closeness to Mary and ask for intervention.

One of the things I like about the Catholic Church is that it is big enough to allow for people to come to God on different paths. Everyone is different, thinks differently and processes information differently. It makes sense to me that God would take that into consideration, call it a logical deduction.

As long as we are on THE road there may be different lanes. I think of yours as the Express Lane, not a lot of room for variation. My point is that I do not tell you yours is wrong or try to force you in a lane that does not work for how you process information. I hope we end up in the same place. Will we? Who knows, it has all been modified since 33 AD. I have faith we will.

FLBear5630 said:

---

ShooterTX said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

ShooterTX said:

---

Been away for awhile.
Don't have time right now to read everything here.

Had anyone addressed the 2nd commandment, and why it's missing from the catholic version of the 10 commandments?
I have heard Catholics defend this by saying that the 2nd is just part of the law against false gods... so it's redundant and doesn't need to be included. That seems lie a very weak excuse for eliminating something that God spoke. Why do Catholics need to edit God?
Is it because God specifically says not to bow down to graven images?
Exodus 20:4-5 NIV
[4] "You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. [5] You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,

Of course the Catholics say that they don't bow down or worship the images of Mary, but...

https://www.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=pfbid02ACJAiPbXqGojMeBDRvrS3P9YeSmj4EmwUGNUiAZaihTRTzTHYg85CwFD9PKMdpgMl&id=100068429748592

https://images.app.goo.gl/oN3ZKQssSKUy1EUAA

https://images.app.goo.gl/jiEa5fZ3dDHwhZec6

https://images.app.goo.gl/zXYjFmtm1edKd2sE8

But hey.... no prayers, bowing or worship to an image going on here, right?

---

The Catechism 2112 addresses the 1st Commandment and idolatry.

The Catholic Church uses St Augustine's numbering of the 10 Commandments. You know him, the guy earlier in the thread you guys were saying was the authority on either Mary, Sola Scriptura or one of the Protestant believes. It changes depending on the subject which ones any of us believe.

If I remember correctly Lutherans and Catholics use St Augustine, Catholic Orthodox and Protestants use Origen's version. They differ. We won't agree that the Catechism addresses it in 2112, as the Catholics and Protestants haven't for 1500 years.

My understanding is the difference lies in whether you are worshiping God or a false God. Once again, we won't agree.

So, do we want to continue to fight the Reformation? It will pretty much go as it has for 1500 years and the last 2 weeks. Both sides say something, the other side says they are wrong. The question is do we want to go to insults or skip that part?

---

Good Lord - what does the numbering of the Ten Commandments have to do with the fact that Roman Catholics are breaking the one about idols??

---

Idolatry
2112 The first commandment condemns polytheism. It requires man neither to believe in, nor to venerate, other divinities than the one true God. Scripture constantly recalls this rejection of "idols, (of) silver and gold, the work of men's hands. They have mouths, but do not speak; eyes, but do not see." These empty idols make their worshippers empty: "Those who make them are like them; so are all who trust in them."42 God, however, is the "living God"43 who gives life and intervenes in history.

2113 Idolatry not only refers to false pagan worship. It remains a constant temptation to faith. Idolatry consists in divinizing what is not God. Man commits idolatry whenever he honors and reveres a creature in place of God, whether this be gods or demons (for example, satanism), power, pleasure, race, ancestors, the state, money, etc. Jesus says, "You cannot serve God and mammon."44 Many martyrs died for not adoring "the Beast"45 refusing even to simulate such worship. Idolatry rejects the unique Lordship of God; it is therefore incompatible with communion with God.46

2114 Human life finds its unity in the adoration of the one God. the commandment to worship the Lord alone integrates man and saves him from an endless disintegration. Idolatry is a perversion of man's innate religious sense. An idolater is someone who "transfers his indestructible notion of God to anything other than God."47


There you go, that is what Catholics believe, we do not believe in idolatry. Like it or not.

---

I am glad that the official statements do recognize that idolatry is a sin. That is good. However, the practice of bowing to statues, kissing statues, and especially doing this to statues of Mary... that is the text book definition of bowing to a graven image. Mary is not God... even the Catholic catechism agrees with that statement. However, many Catholics (including the Pope) pray prayers to Mary and pray more to Mary than to God. They sing songs to Mary. I know that the official statements claim that this is not worship, but "veneration"... but it is a distinction without a difference.

What is worship? The word is derived from the Old English weorscipe, meaning to venerate "worship, honour shown to an object or deity,[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worship#cite_note-Bosworth-2][2][/url] which has been etymologised as "worthiness or worth-ship"to give, at its simplest, worth to something.

So to venerate is to worship.

If you saw someone engaged in idolatry to a pagan god, what would they be doing? Offering up prayers, singing songs, declaring their devotion to the god, building altars & shrines to the god, creating statues & other forms of idols to the god..... yes, that is how we see someone engaged in idolatry to a pagan god... it is also exactly what hundreds of millions of catholics do around the world with Mary.

I know you want to believe that Catholics do not idolize Mary, but there is no difference between how Catholics treat Mary and Buddhist treat Buda.

We are supposed to pray to God for healing, protection, salvation, blessings,... and yet the Pope does this to Mary. Look again at these prayers offered up by the Pope, and show me where the Pope is asking Mary to ask Jesus for these things. He is not. He is directly asking Mary herself to give healing, blessings, forgiveness, etc.

I'm sorry to say it, but he Catholic statements and the Catholic practices do not line up. It is idolatry... unless you want to claim that Mary is part of the Trinity.

https://images.app.goo.gl/zXYjFmtm1edKd2sE8

https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=767552940317488&set=a.146917329047722&__cft__[0]=AZX7p-9NCVn-rEor6zD8l7ybXshIzgoodGXwQAWt2ZMB9R3sWwHRYUj-mzD75xHmHjccTCj9Kf0VOzzRsTNOv4wmPi_VSm8QBeb5srryZDYGmWCnwL3RxKTVZ2h6wABlAUOYEXt00699EjD88GY7IKzVMOUxoR1W4aMrp_7xUVpiaA&__tn__=EH-R

How can you look at these images and read these prayers, and not see the obvious worship & devotion to a human woman... not God, a woman. Granted, she was very blessed & honored... but that doesn't make her God.

---

As I said early on, seems like months ago, it is a practice that I do not take part. I have never done a novena, the Hail Mary is the Magnificat from the Bible and I do not take part in that aspect of Catholicism. But, that is me.

I know A LOT of women that do feel a closeness to Mary and ask for intervention.

One of the things I like about the Catholic Church is that it is big enough to allow for people to come to God on different paths. Everyone is different, thinks differently and processes information differently. It makes sense to me that God would take that into consideration, call it a logical deduction.

As long as we are on THE road there may be different lanes. I think of yours as the Express Lane, not a lot of room for variation. My point is that I do not tell you yours is wrong or try to force you in a lane that does not work for how you process information. I hope we end up in the same place. Will we? Who knows, it has all been modified since 33 AD. I have faith we will.

---

I seriously do not think that idolatry of Mary is a path that God will accept.

And you didn't take a stance on it: IS it idolatry of Mary, or not?

FLBear5630 said:

---

ShooterTX said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

ShooterTX said:

---

Been away for awhile.
Don't have time right now to read everything here.

Had anyone addressed the 2nd commandment, and why it's missing from the catholic version of the 10 commandments?
I have heard Catholics defend this by saying that the 2nd is just part of the law against false gods... so it's redundant and doesn't need to be included. That seems lie a very weak excuse for eliminating something that God spoke. Why do Catholics need to edit God?
Is it because God specifically says not to bow down to graven images?
Exodus 20:4-5 NIV
[4] "You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. [5] You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,

Of course the Catholics say that they don't bow down or worship the images of Mary, but...

https://www.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=pfbid02ACJAiPbXqGojMeBDRvrS3P9YeSmj4EmwUGNUiAZaihTRTzTHYg85CwFD9PKMdpgMl&id=100068429748592

https://images.app.goo.gl/oN3ZKQssSKUy1EUAA

https://images.app.goo.gl/jiEa5fZ3dDHwhZec6

https://images.app.goo.gl/zXYjFmtm1edKd2sE8

But hey.... no prayers, bowing or worship to an image going on here, right?

---

The Catechism 2112 addresses the 1st Commandment and idolatry.

The Catholic Church uses St Augustine's numbering of the 10 Commandments. You know him, the guy earlier in the thread you guys were saying was the authority on either Mary, Sola Scriptura or one of the Protestant believes. It changes depending on the subject which ones any of us believe.

If I remember correctly Lutherans and Catholics use St Augustine, Catholic Orthodox and Protestants use Origen's version. They differ. We won't agree that the Catechism addresses it in 2112, as the Catholics and Protestants haven't for 1500 years.

My understanding is the difference lies in whether you are worshiping God or a false God. Once again, we won't agree.

So, do we want to continue to fight the Reformation? It will pretty much go as it has for 1500 years and the last 2 weeks. Both sides say something, the other side says they are wrong. The question is do we want to go to insults or skip that part?

---

Good Lord - what does the numbering of the Ten Commandments have to do with the fact that Roman Catholics are breaking the one about idols??

---

Idolatry
2112 The first commandment condemns polytheism. It requires man neither to believe in, nor to venerate, other divinities than the one true God. Scripture constantly recalls this rejection of "idols, (of) silver and gold, the work of men's hands. They have mouths, but do not speak; eyes, but do not see." These empty idols make their worshippers empty: "Those who make them are like them; so are all who trust in them."42 God, however, is the "living God"43 who gives life and intervenes in history.

2113 Idolatry not only refers to false pagan worship. It remains a constant temptation to faith. Idolatry consists in divinizing what is not God. Man commits idolatry whenever he honors and reveres a creature in place of God, whether this be gods or demons (for example, satanism), power, pleasure, race, ancestors, the state, money, etc. Jesus says, "You cannot serve God and mammon."44 Many martyrs died for not adoring "the Beast"45 refusing even to simulate such worship. Idolatry rejects the unique Lordship of God; it is therefore incompatible with communion with God.46

2114 Human life finds its unity in the adoration of the one God. the commandment to worship the Lord alone integrates man and saves him from an endless disintegration. Idolatry is a perversion of man's innate religious sense. An idolater is someone who "transfers his indestructible notion of God to anything other than God."47


There you go, that is what Catholics believe, we do not believe in idolatry. Like it or not.

---

I am glad that the official statements do recognize that idolatry is a sin. That is good. However, the practice of bowing to statues, kissing statues, and especially doing this to statues of Mary... that is the text book definition of bowing to a graven image. Mary is not God... even the Catholic catechism agrees with that statement. However, many Catholics (including the Pope) pray prayers to Mary and pray more to Mary than to God. They sing songs to Mary. I know that the official statements claim that this is not worship, but "veneration"... but it is a distinction without a difference.

What is worship? The word is derived from the Old English weorscipe, meaning to venerate "worship, honour shown to an object or deity,[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worship#cite_note-Bosworth-2][2][/url] which has been etymologised as "worthiness or worth-ship"to give, at its simplest, worth to something.

So to venerate is to worship.

If you saw someone engaged in idolatry to a pagan god, what would they be doing? Offering up prayers, singing songs, declaring their devotion to the god, building altars & shrines to the god, creating statues & other forms of idols to the god..... yes, that is how we see someone engaged in idolatry to a pagan god... it is also exactly what hundreds of millions of catholics do around the world with Mary.

I know you want to believe that Catholics do not idolize Mary, but there is no difference between how Catholics treat Mary and Buddhist treat Buda.

We are supposed to pray to God for healing, protection, salvation, blessings,... and yet the Pope does this to Mary. Look again at these prayers offered up by the Pope, and show me where the Pope is asking Mary to ask Jesus for these things. He is not. He is directly asking Mary herself to give healing, blessings, forgiveness, etc.

I'm sorry to say it, but he Catholic statements and the Catholic practices do not line up. It is idolatry... unless you want to claim that Mary is part of the Trinity.

https://images.app.goo.gl/zXYjFmtm1edKd2sE8

https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=767552940317488&set=a.146917329047722&__cft__[0]=AZX7p-9NCVn-rEor6zD8l7ybXshIzgoodGXwQAWt2ZMB9R3sWwHRYUj-mzD75xHmHjccTCj9Kf0VOzzRsTNOv4wmPi_VSm8QBeb5srryZDYGmWCnwL3RxKTVZ2h6wABlAUOYEXt00699EjD88GY7IKzVMOUxoR1W4aMrp_7xUVpiaA&__tn__=EH-R

How can you look at these images and read these prayers, and not see the obvious worship & devotion to a human woman... not God, a woman. Granted, she was very blessed & honored... but that doesn't make her God.

---

As I said early on, seems like months ago, it is a practice that I do not take part. I have never done a novena, the Hail Mary is the Magnificat from the Bible and I do not take part in that aspect of Catholicism. But, that is me.

I know A LOT of women that do feel a closeness to Mary and ask for intervention.

One of the things I like about the Catholic Church is that it is big enough to allow for people to come to God on different paths. Everyone is different, thinks differently and processes information differently. It makes sense to me that God would take that into consideration, call it a logical deduction.

As long as we are on THE road there may be different lanes. I think of yours as the Express Lane, not a lot of room for variation. My point is that I do not tell you yours is wrong or try to force you in a lane that does not work for how you process information. I hope we end up in the same place. Will we? Who knows, it has all been modified since 33 AD. I have faith we will.

---

A question that I think will bring a lot of light into all this:

Do you believe same sex marriage is a sin, and should not be accepted in Christianity?

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

ShooterTX said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

ShooterTX said:

---

Been away for awhile.
Don't have time right now to read everything here.

Had anyone addressed the 2nd commandment, and why it's missing from the catholic version of the 10 commandments?
I have heard Catholics defend this by saying that the 2nd is just part of the law against false gods... so it's redundant and doesn't need to be included. That seems lie a very weak excuse for eliminating something that God spoke. Why do Catholics need to edit God?
Is it because God specifically says not to bow down to graven images?
Exodus 20:4-5 NIV
[4] "You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. [5] You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,

Of course the Catholics say that they don't bow down or worship the images of Mary, but...

https://www.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=pfbid02ACJAiPbXqGojMeBDRvrS3P9YeSmj4EmwUGNUiAZaihTRTzTHYg85CwFD9PKMdpgMl&id=100068429748592

https://images.app.goo.gl/oN3ZKQssSKUy1EUAA

https://images.app.goo.gl/jiEa5fZ3dDHwhZec6

https://images.app.goo.gl/zXYjFmtm1edKd2sE8

But hey.... no prayers, bowing or worship to an image going on here, right?

---

The Catechism 2112 addresses the 1st Commandment and idolatry.

The Catholic Church uses St Augustine's numbering of the 10 Commandments. You know him, the guy earlier in the thread you guys were saying was the authority on either Mary, Sola Scriptura or one of the Protestant believes. It changes depending on the subject which ones any of us believe.

If I remember correctly Lutherans and Catholics use St Augustine, Catholic Orthodox and Protestants use Origen's version. They differ. We won't agree that the Catechism addresses it in 2112, as the Catholics and Protestants haven't for 1500 years.

My understanding is the difference lies in whether you are worshiping God or a false God. Once again, we won't agree.

So, do we want to continue to fight the Reformation? It will pretty much go as it has for 1500 years and the last 2 weeks. Both sides say something, the other side says they are wrong. The question is do we want to go to insults or skip that part?

---

Good Lord - what does the numbering of the Ten Commandments have to do with the fact that Roman Catholics are breaking the one about idols??

---

Idolatry
2112 The first commandment condemns polytheism. It requires man neither to believe in, nor to venerate, other divinities than the one true God. Scripture constantly recalls this rejection of "idols, (of) silver and gold, the work of men's hands. They have mouths, but do not speak; eyes, but do not see." These empty idols make their worshippers empty: "Those who make them are like them; so are all who trust in them."42 God, however, is the "living God"43 who gives life and intervenes in history.

2113 Idolatry not only refers to false pagan worship. It remains a constant temptation to faith. Idolatry consists in divinizing what is not God. Man commits idolatry whenever he honors and reveres a creature in place of God, whether this be gods or demons (for example, satanism), power, pleasure, race, ancestors, the state, money, etc. Jesus says, "You cannot serve God and mammon."44 Many martyrs died for not adoring "the Beast"45 refusing even to simulate such worship. Idolatry rejects the unique Lordship of God; it is therefore incompatible with communion with God.46

2114 Human life finds its unity in the adoration of the one God. the commandment to worship the Lord alone integrates man and saves him from an endless disintegration. Idolatry is a perversion of man's innate religious sense. An idolater is someone who "transfers his indestructible notion of God to anything other than God."47


There you go, that is what Catholics believe, we do not believe in idolatry. Like it or not.

---

I am glad that the official statements do recognize that idolatry is a sin. That is good. However, the practice of bowing to statues, kissing statues, and especially doing this to statues of Mary... that is the text book definition of bowing to a graven image. Mary is not God... even the Catholic catechism agrees with that statement. However, many Catholics (including the Pope) pray prayers to Mary and pray more to Mary than to God. They sing songs to Mary. I know that the official statements claim that this is not worship, but "veneration"... but it is a distinction without a difference.

What is worship? The word is derived from the Old English weorscipe, meaning to venerate "worship, honour shown to an object or deity,[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worship#cite_note-Bosworth-2][2][/url] which has been etymologised as "worthiness or worth-ship"to give, at its simplest, worth to something.

So to venerate is to worship.

If you saw someone engaged in idolatry to a pagan god, what would they be doing? Offering up prayers, singing songs, declaring their devotion to the god, building altars & shrines to the god, creating statues & other forms of idols to the god..... yes, that is how we see someone engaged in idolatry to a pagan god... it is also exactly what hundreds of millions of catholics do around the world with Mary.

I know you want to believe that Catholics do not idolize Mary, but there is no difference between how Catholics treat Mary and Buddhist treat Buda.

We are supposed to pray to God for healing, protection, salvation, blessings,... and yet the Pope does this to Mary. Look again at these prayers offered up by the Pope, and show me where the Pope is asking Mary to ask Jesus for these things. He is not. He is directly asking Mary herself to give healing, blessings, forgiveness, etc.

I'm sorry to say it, but he Catholic statements and the Catholic practices do not line up. It is idolatry... unless you want to claim that Mary is part of the Trinity.

https://images.app.goo.gl/zXYjFmtm1edKd2sE8

https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=767552940317488&set=a.146917329047722&__cft__[0]=AZX7p-9NCVn-rEor6zD8l7ybXshIzgoodGXwQAWt2ZMB9R3sWwHRYUj-mzD75xHmHjccTCj9Kf0VOzzRsTNOv4wmPi_VSm8QBeb5srryZDYGmWCnwL3RxKTVZ2h6wABlAUOYEXt00699EjD88GY7IKzVMOUxoR1W4aMrp_7xUVpiaA&__tn__=EH-R

How can you look at these images and read these prayers, and not see the obvious worship & devotion to a human woman... not God, a woman. Granted, she was very blessed & honored... but that doesn't make her God.

---

As I said early on, seems like months ago, it is a practice that I do not take part. I have never done a novena, the Hail Mary is the Magnificat from the Bible and I do not take part in that aspect of Catholicism. But, that is me.

I know A LOT of women that do feel a closeness to Mary and ask for intervention.

One of the things I like about the Catholic Church is that it is big enough to allow for people to come to God on different paths. Everyone is different, thinks differently and processes information differently. It makes sense to me that God would take that into consideration, call it a logical deduction.

As long as we are on THE road there may be different lanes. I think of yours as the Express Lane, not a lot of room for variation. My point is that I do not tell you yours is wrong or try to force you in a lane that does not work for how you process information. I hope we end up in the same place. Will we? Who knows, it has all been modified since 33 AD. I have faith we will.

---

I seriously do not think that idolatry of Mary is a path that God will accept.

And you didn't take a stance on it: IS it idolatry of Mary, or not?

---

The path is not the destination.

curtpenn said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

ShooterTX said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

ShooterTX said:

---

Been away for awhile.
Don't have time right now to read everything here.

Had anyone addressed the 2nd commandment, and why it's missing from the catholic version of the 10 commandments?
I have heard Catholics defend this by saying that the 2nd is just part of the law against false gods... so it's redundant and doesn't need to be included. That seems lie a very weak excuse for eliminating something that God spoke. Why do Catholics need to edit God?
Is it because God specifically says not to bow down to graven images?
Exodus 20:4-5 NIV
[4] "You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. [5] You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,

Of course the Catholics say that they don't bow down or worship the images of Mary, but...

https://www.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=pfbid02ACJAiPbXqGojMeBDRvrS3P9YeSmj4EmwUGNUiAZaihTRTzTHYg85CwFD9PKMdpgMl&id=100068429748592

https://images.app.goo.gl/oN3ZKQssSKUy1EUAA

https://images.app.goo.gl/jiEa5fZ3dDHwhZec6

https://images.app.goo.gl/zXYjFmtm1edKd2sE8

But hey.... no prayers, bowing or worship to an image going on here, right?

---

The Catechism 2112 addresses the 1st Commandment and idolatry.

The Catholic Church uses St Augustine's numbering of the 10 Commandments. You know him, the guy earlier in the thread you guys were saying was the authority on either Mary, Sola Scriptura or one of the Protestant believes. It changes depending on the subject which ones any of us believe.

If I remember correctly Lutherans and Catholics use St Augustine, Catholic Orthodox and Protestants use Origen's version. They differ. We won't agree that the Catechism addresses it in 2112, as the Catholics and Protestants haven't for 1500 years.

My understanding is the difference lies in whether you are worshiping God or a false God. Once again, we won't agree.

So, do we want to continue to fight the Reformation? It will pretty much go as it has for 1500 years and the last 2 weeks. Both sides say something, the other side says they are wrong. The question is do we want to go to insults or skip that part?

---

Good Lord - what does the numbering of the Ten Commandments have to do with the fact that Roman Catholics are breaking the one about idols??

---

Idolatry
2112 The first commandment condemns polytheism. It requires man neither to believe in, nor to venerate, other divinities than the one true God. Scripture constantly recalls this rejection of "idols, (of) silver and gold, the work of men's hands. They have mouths, but do not speak; eyes, but do not see." These empty idols make their worshippers empty: "Those who make them are like them; so are all who trust in them."42 God, however, is the "living God"43 who gives life and intervenes in history.

2113 Idolatry not only refers to false pagan worship. It remains a constant temptation to faith. Idolatry consists in divinizing what is not God. Man commits idolatry whenever he honors and reveres a creature in place of God, whether this be gods or demons (for example, satanism), power, pleasure, race, ancestors, the state, money, etc. Jesus says, "You cannot serve God and mammon."44 Many martyrs died for not adoring "the Beast"45 refusing even to simulate such worship. Idolatry rejects the unique Lordship of God; it is therefore incompatible with communion with God.46

2114 Human life finds its unity in the adoration of the one God. the commandment to worship the Lord alone integrates man and saves him from an endless disintegration. Idolatry is a perversion of man's innate religious sense. An idolater is someone who "transfers his indestructible notion of God to anything other than God."47


There you go, that is what Catholics believe, we do not believe in idolatry. Like it or not.

---

I am glad that the official statements do recognize that idolatry is a sin. That is good. However, the practice of bowing to statues, kissing statues, and especially doing this to statues of Mary... that is the text book definition of bowing to a graven image. Mary is not God... even the Catholic catechism agrees with that statement. However, many Catholics (including the Pope) pray prayers to Mary and pray more to Mary than to God. They sing songs to Mary. I know that the official statements claim that this is not worship, but "veneration"... but it is a distinction without a difference.

What is worship? The word is derived from the Old English weorscipe, meaning to venerate "worship, honour shown to an object or deity,[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worship#cite_note-Bosworth-2][2][/url] which has been etymologised as "worthiness or worth-ship"to give, at its simplest, worth to something.

So to venerate is to worship.

If you saw someone engaged in idolatry to a pagan god, what would they be doing? Offering up prayers, singing songs, declaring their devotion to the god, building altars & shrines to the god, creating statues & other forms of idols to the god..... yes, that is how we see someone engaged in idolatry to a pagan god... it is also exactly what hundreds of millions of catholics do around the world with Mary.

I know you want to believe that Catholics do not idolize Mary, but there is no difference between how Catholics treat Mary and Buddhist treat Buda.

We are supposed to pray to God for healing, protection, salvation, blessings,... and yet the Pope does this to Mary. Look again at these prayers offered up by the Pope, and show me where the Pope is asking Mary to ask Jesus for these things. He is not. He is directly asking Mary herself to give healing, blessings, forgiveness, etc.

I'm sorry to say it, but he Catholic statements and the Catholic practices do not line up. It is idolatry... unless you want to claim that Mary is part of the Trinity.

https://images.app.goo.gl/zXYjFmtm1edKd2sE8

https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=767552940317488&set=a.146917329047722&__cft__[0]=AZX7p-9NCVn-rEor6zD8l7ybXshIzgoodGXwQAWt2ZMB9R3sWwHRYUj-mzD75xHmHjccTCj9Kf0VOzzRsTNOv4wmPi_VSm8QBeb5srryZDYGmWCnwL3RxKTVZ2h6wABlAUOYEXt00699EjD88GY7IKzVMOUxoR1W4aMrp_7xUVpiaA&__tn__=EH-R

How can you look at these images and read these prayers, and not see the obvious worship & devotion to a human woman... not God, a woman. Granted, she was very blessed & honored... but that doesn't make her God.

---

As I said early on, seems like months ago, it is a practice that I do not take part. I have never done a novena, the Hail Mary is the Magnificat from the Bible and I do not take part in that aspect of Catholicism. But, that is me.

I know A LOT of women that do feel a closeness to Mary and ask for intervention.

One of the things I like about the Catholic Church is that it is big enough to allow for people to come to God on different paths. Everyone is different, thinks differently and processes information differently. It makes sense to me that God would take that into consideration, call it a logical deduction.

As long as we are on THE road there may be different lanes. I think of yours as the Express Lane, not a lot of room for variation. My point is that I do not tell you yours is wrong or try to force you in a lane that does not work for how you process information. I hope we end up in the same place. Will we? Who knows, it has all been modified since 33 AD. I have faith we will.

---

I seriously do not think that idolatry of Mary is a path that God will accept.

And you didn't take a stance on it: IS it idolatry of Mary, or not?

---

The path is not the destination.

---

It's a path that God doesn't accept because of the destination.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

ShooterTX said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

ShooterTX said:

---

Been away for awhile.
Don't have time right now to read everything here.

Had anyone addressed the 2nd commandment, and why it's missing from the catholic version of the 10 commandments?
I have heard Catholics defend this by saying that the 2nd is just part of the law against false gods... so it's redundant and doesn't need to be included. That seems lie a very weak excuse for eliminating something that God spoke. Why do Catholics need to edit God?
Is it because God specifically says not to bow down to graven images?
Exodus 20:4-5 NIV
[4] "You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. [5] You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,

Of course the Catholics say that they don't bow down or worship the images of Mary, but...

https://www.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=pfbid02ACJAiPbXqGojMeBDRvrS3P9YeSmj4EmwUGNUiAZaihTRTzTHYg85CwFD9PKMdpgMl&id=100068429748592

https://images.app.goo.gl/oN3ZKQssSKUy1EUAA

https://images.app.goo.gl/jiEa5fZ3dDHwhZec6

https://images.app.goo.gl/zXYjFmtm1edKd2sE8

But hey.... no prayers, bowing or worship to an image going on here, right?

---

The Catechism 2112 addresses the 1st Commandment and idolatry.

The Catholic Church uses St Augustine's numbering of the 10 Commandments. You know him, the guy earlier in the thread you guys were saying was the authority on either Mary, Sola Scriptura or one of the Protestant believes. It changes depending on the subject which ones any of us believe.

If I remember correctly Lutherans and Catholics use St Augustine, Catholic Orthodox and Protestants use Origen's version. They differ. We won't agree that the Catechism addresses it in 2112, as the Catholics and Protestants haven't for 1500 years.

My understanding is the difference lies in whether you are worshiping God or a false God. Once again, we won't agree.

So, do we want to continue to fight the Reformation? It will pretty much go as it has for 1500 years and the last 2 weeks. Both sides say something, the other side says they are wrong. The question is do we want to go to insults or skip that part?

---

Good Lord - what does the numbering of the Ten Commandments have to do with the fact that Roman Catholics are breaking the one about idols??

---

Idolatry
2112 The first commandment condemns polytheism. It requires man neither to believe in, nor to venerate, other divinities than the one true God. Scripture constantly recalls this rejection of "idols, (of) silver and gold, the work of men's hands. They have mouths, but do not speak; eyes, but do not see." These empty idols make their worshippers empty: "Those who make them are like them; so are all who trust in them."42 God, however, is the "living God"43 who gives life and intervenes in history.

2113 Idolatry not only refers to false pagan worship. It remains a constant temptation to faith. Idolatry consists in divinizing what is not God. Man commits idolatry whenever he honors and reveres a creature in place of God, whether this be gods or demons (for example, satanism), power, pleasure, race, ancestors, the state, money, etc. Jesus says, "You cannot serve God and mammon."44 Many martyrs died for not adoring "the Beast"45 refusing even to simulate such worship. Idolatry rejects the unique Lordship of God; it is therefore incompatible with communion with God.46

2114 Human life finds its unity in the adoration of the one God. the commandment to worship the Lord alone integrates man and saves him from an endless disintegration. Idolatry is a perversion of man's innate religious sense. An idolater is someone who "transfers his indestructible notion of God to anything other than God."47


There you go, that is what Catholics believe, we do not believe in idolatry. Like it or not.

---

I am glad that the official statements do recognize that idolatry is a sin. That is good. However, the practice of bowing to statues, kissing statues, and especially doing this to statues of Mary... that is the text book definition of bowing to a graven image. Mary is not God... even the Catholic catechism agrees with that statement. However, many Catholics (including the Pope) pray prayers to Mary and pray more to Mary than to God. They sing songs to Mary. I know that the official statements claim that this is not worship, but "veneration"... but it is a distinction without a difference.

What is worship? The word is derived from the Old English weorscipe, meaning to venerate "worship, honour shown to an object or deity,[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worship#cite_note-Bosworth-2][2][/url] which has been etymologised as "worthiness or worth-ship"to give, at its simplest, worth to something.

So to venerate is to worship.

If you saw someone engaged in idolatry to a pagan god, what would they be doing? Offering up prayers, singing songs, declaring their devotion to the god, building altars & shrines to the god, creating statues & other forms of idols to the god..... yes, that is how we see someone engaged in idolatry to a pagan god... it is also exactly what hundreds of millions of catholics do around the world with Mary.

I know you want to believe that Catholics do not idolize Mary, but there is no difference between how Catholics treat Mary and Buddhist treat Buda.

We are supposed to pray to God for healing, protection, salvation, blessings,... and yet the Pope does this to Mary. Look again at these prayers offered up by the Pope, and show me where the Pope is asking Mary to ask Jesus for these things. He is not. He is directly asking Mary herself to give healing, blessings, forgiveness, etc.

I'm sorry to say it, but he Catholic statements and the Catholic practices do not line up. It is idolatry... unless you want to claim that Mary is part of the Trinity.

https://images.app.goo.gl/zXYjFmtm1edKd2sE8

https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=767552940317488&set=a.146917329047722&__cft__[0]=AZX7p-9NCVn-rEor6zD8l7ybXshIzgoodGXwQAWt2ZMB9R3sWwHRYUj-mzD75xHmHjccTCj9Kf0VOzzRsTNOv4wmPi_VSm8QBeb5srryZDYGmWCnwL3RxKTVZ2h6wABlAUOYEXt00699EjD88GY7IKzVMOUxoR1W4aMrp_7xUVpiaA&__tn__=EH-R

How can you look at these images and read these prayers, and not see the obvious worship & devotion to a human woman... not God, a woman. Granted, she was very blessed & honored... but that doesn't make her God.

---

As I said early on, seems like months ago, it is a practice that I do not take part. I have never done a novena, the Hail Mary is the Magnificat from the Bible and I do not take part in that aspect of Catholicism. But, that is me.

I know A LOT of women that do feel a closeness to Mary and ask for intervention.

One of the things I like about the Catholic Church is that it is big enough to allow for people to come to God on different paths. Everyone is different, thinks differently and processes information differently. It makes sense to me that God would take that into consideration, call it a logical deduction.

As long as we are on THE road there may be different lanes. I think of yours as the Express Lane, not a lot of room for variation. My point is that I do not tell you yours is wrong or try to force you in a lane that does not work for how you process information. I hope we end up in the same place. Will we? Who knows, it has all been modified since 33 AD. I have faith we will.

---

I seriously do not think that idolatry of Mary is a path that God will accept.

And you didn't take a stance on it: IS it idolatry of Mary, or not?

---

No it is not and the Catholic Catechism clearly states that.

So, what you are saying is that everything your side has shown in writing is dead on and not disputable. But, what the Catholic Church shows you in writing is "well, we really know what is going on"? Sort of disingenuous don't you think? I am supposed to take your guy's stuff at face value because some guy from Cambridge who specializes in medieval Britain says something. Yet, the Catechism of the Catholic Church, THE answer book, is not to be believed?

You asked a question - Is it worship of Mary. I have told you NO and shown you in the Catechism where is explains we do not worship Mary. Not enough?

Channel your inner Billy Graham, he was more Catholic than Radical Protestant... He got it. He was Buddies with Bishop Fulton Sheen and Pope JP2. I know sell out...

FLBear5630 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

ShooterTX said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

ShooterTX said:

---

Been away for awhile.
Don't have time right now to read everything here.

Had anyone addressed the 2nd commandment, and why it's missing from the catholic version of the 10 commandments?
I have heard Catholics defend this by saying that the 2nd is just part of the law against false gods... so it's redundant and doesn't need to be included. That seems lie a very weak excuse for eliminating something that God spoke. Why do Catholics need to edit God?
Is it because God specifically says not to bow down to graven images?
Exodus 20:4-5 NIV
[4] "You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. [5] You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,

Of course the Catholics say that they don't bow down or worship the images of Mary, but...

https://www.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=pfbid02ACJAiPbXqGojMeBDRvrS3P9YeSmj4EmwUGNUiAZaihTRTzTHYg85CwFD9PKMdpgMl&id=100068429748592

https://images.app.goo.gl/oN3ZKQssSKUy1EUAA

https://images.app.goo.gl/jiEa5fZ3dDHwhZec6

https://images.app.goo.gl/zXYjFmtm1edKd2sE8

But hey.... no prayers, bowing or worship to an image going on here, right?

---

The Catechism 2112 addresses the 1st Commandment and idolatry.

The Catholic Church uses St Augustine's numbering of the 10 Commandments. You know him, the guy earlier in the thread you guys were saying was the authority on either Mary, Sola Scriptura or one of the Protestant believes. It changes depending on the subject which ones any of us believe.

If I remember correctly Lutherans and Catholics use St Augustine, Catholic Orthodox and Protestants use Origen's version. They differ. We won't agree that the Catechism addresses it in 2112, as the Catholics and Protestants haven't for 1500 years.

My understanding is the difference lies in whether you are worshiping God or a false God. Once again, we won't agree.

So, do we want to continue to fight the Reformation? It will pretty much go as it has for 1500 years and the last 2 weeks. Both sides say something, the other side says they are wrong. The question is do we want to go to insults or skip that part?

---

Good Lord - what does the numbering of the Ten Commandments have to do with the fact that Roman Catholics are breaking the one about idols??

---

Idolatry
2112 The first commandment condemns polytheism. It requires man neither to believe in, nor to venerate, other divinities than the one true God. Scripture constantly recalls this rejection of "idols, (of) silver and gold, the work of men's hands. They have mouths, but do not speak; eyes, but do not see." These empty idols make their worshippers empty: "Those who make them are like them; so are all who trust in them."42 God, however, is the "living God"43 who gives life and intervenes in history.

2113 Idolatry not only refers to false pagan worship. It remains a constant temptation to faith. Idolatry consists in divinizing what is not God. Man commits idolatry whenever he honors and reveres a creature in place of God, whether this be gods or demons (for example, satanism), power, pleasure, race, ancestors, the state, money, etc. Jesus says, "You cannot serve God and mammon."44 Many martyrs died for not adoring "the Beast"45 refusing even to simulate such worship. Idolatry rejects the unique Lordship of God; it is therefore incompatible with communion with God.46

2114 Human life finds its unity in the adoration of the one God. the commandment to worship the Lord alone integrates man and saves him from an endless disintegration. Idolatry is a perversion of man's innate religious sense. An idolater is someone who "transfers his indestructible notion of God to anything other than God."47


There you go, that is what Catholics believe, we do not believe in idolatry. Like it or not.

---

I am glad that the official statements do recognize that idolatry is a sin. That is good. However, the practice of bowing to statues, kissing statues, and especially doing this to statues of Mary... that is the text book definition of bowing to a graven image. Mary is not God... even the Catholic catechism agrees with that statement. However, many Catholics (including the Pope) pray prayers to Mary and pray more to Mary than to God. They sing songs to Mary. I know that the official statements claim that this is not worship, but "veneration"... but it is a distinction without a difference.

What is worship? The word is derived from the Old English weorscipe, meaning to venerate "worship, honour shown to an object or deity,[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worship#cite_note-Bosworth-2][2][/url] which has been etymologised as "worthiness or worth-ship"to give, at its simplest, worth to something.

So to venerate is to worship.

If you saw someone engaged in idolatry to a pagan god, what would they be doing? Offering up prayers, singing songs, declaring their devotion to the god, building altars & shrines to the god, creating statues & other forms of idols to the god..... yes, that is how we see someone engaged in idolatry to a pagan god... it is also exactly what hundreds of millions of catholics do around the world with Mary.

I know you want to believe that Catholics do not idolize Mary, but there is no difference between how Catholics treat Mary and Buddhist treat Buda.

We are supposed to pray to God for healing, protection, salvation, blessings,... and yet the Pope does this to Mary. Look again at these prayers offered up by the Pope, and show me where the Pope is asking Mary to ask Jesus for these things. He is not. He is directly asking Mary herself to give healing, blessings, forgiveness, etc.

I'm sorry to say it, but he Catholic statements and the Catholic practices do not line up. It is idolatry... unless you want to claim that Mary is part of the Trinity.

https://images.app.goo.gl/zXYjFmtm1edKd2sE8

https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=767552940317488&set=a.146917329047722&__cft__[0]=AZX7p-9NCVn-rEor6zD8l7ybXshIzgoodGXwQAWt2ZMB9R3sWwHRYUj-mzD75xHmHjccTCj9Kf0VOzzRsTNOv4wmPi_VSm8QBeb5srryZDYGmWCnwL3RxKTVZ2h6wABlAUOYEXt00699EjD88GY7IKzVMOUxoR1W4aMrp_7xUVpiaA&__tn__=EH-R

How can you look at these images and read these prayers, and not see the obvious worship & devotion to a human woman... not God, a woman. Granted, she was very blessed & honored... but that doesn't make her God.

---

As I said early on, seems like months ago, it is a practice that I do not take part. I have never done a novena, the Hail Mary is the Magnificat from the Bible and I do not take part in that aspect of Catholicism. But, that is me.

I know A LOT of women that do feel a closeness to Mary and ask for intervention.

One of the things I like about the Catholic Church is that it is big enough to allow for people to come to God on different paths. Everyone is different, thinks differently and processes information differently. It makes sense to me that God would take that into consideration, call it a logical deduction.

As long as we are on THE road there may be different lanes. I think of yours as the Express Lane, not a lot of room for variation. My point is that I do not tell you yours is wrong or try to force you in a lane that does not work for how you process information. I hope we end up in the same place. Will we? Who knows, it has all been modified since 33 AD. I have faith we will.

---

I seriously do not think that idolatry of Mary is a path that God will accept.

And you didn't take a stance on it: IS it idolatry of Mary, or not?

---

No it is not and the Catholic Catechism clearly states that.

So, what you are saying is that everything your side has shown in writing is dead on and not disputable. But, what the Catholic Church shows you in writing is "well, we really know what is going on"? Sort of disingenuous don't you think? I am supposed to take your guy's stuff at face value because some guy from Cambridge who specializes in medieval Britain says something. Yet, the Catechism of the Catholic Church, THE answer book, is not to be believed?

You asked a question - Is it worship of Mary. I have told you NO and shown you in the Catechism where is explains we do not worship Mary. Not enough?

Channel your inner Billy Graham, he was more Catholic than Radical Protestant... He got it. He was Buddies with Bishop Fulton Sheen and Pope JP2. I know sell out...

---

So the Reformation is correct, because the Reformers said so.
That really is how you're arguing.

So you don't think it's idolatry to: bow to and kiss statues of Mary, pray to her, sing hymns to her in church, have statues and pictures of her all over your house, hold nearly a hundred festivals for her per year, and have prayers which call Mary "sovereign", "ruler of my house", "our hope and refuge", "peacemaker between sinners and God", "Mediatrix", "god of this world", and that tell you to "place your salvation in Mary's hands", and that ask her that she "grant that we may go to heaven".....

Then I'm sorry, but you are totally deceived and you have no discernment whatsoever. This is not characteristic of someone with the Holy Spirit, thus someone who is saved. Idolatry just doesn't get more screamingly obvious than this. You and everyone else who agrees with you really needs to ask God to open your eyes.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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curtpenn said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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ShooterTX said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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ShooterTX said:

---

Been away for awhile.
Don't have time right now to read everything here.

Had anyone addressed the 2nd commandment, and why it's missing from the catholic version of the 10 commandments?
I have heard Catholics defend this by saying that the 2nd is just part of the law against false gods... so it's redundant and doesn't need to be included. That seems lie a very weak excuse for eliminating something that God spoke. Why do Catholics need to edit God?
Is it because God specifically says not to bow down to graven images?
Exodus 20:4-5 NIV
[4] "You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. [5] You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,

Of course the Catholics say that they don't bow down or worship the images of Mary, but...

https://www.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=pfbid02ACJAiPbXqGojMeBDRvrS3P9YeSmj4EmwUGNUiAZaihTRTzTHYg85CwFD9PKMdpgMl&id=100068429748592

https://images.app.goo.gl/oN3ZKQssSKUy1EUAA

https://images.app.goo.gl/jiEa5fZ3dDHwhZec6

https://images.app.goo.gl/zXYjFmtm1edKd2sE8

But hey.... no prayers, bowing or worship to an image going on here, right?

---

The Catechism 2112 addresses the 1st Commandment and idolatry.

The Catholic Church uses St Augustine's numbering of the 10 Commandments. You know him, the guy earlier in the thread you guys were saying was the authority on either Mary, Sola Scriptura or one of the Protestant believes. It changes depending on the subject which ones any of us believe.

If I remember correctly Lutherans and Catholics use St Augustine, Catholic Orthodox and Protestants use Origen's version. They differ. We won't agree that the Catechism addresses it in 2112, as the Catholics and Protestants haven't for 1500 years.

My understanding is the difference lies in whether you are worshiping God or a false God. Once again, we won't agree.

So, do we want to continue to fight the Reformation? It will pretty much go as it has for 1500 years and the last 2 weeks. Both sides say something, the other side says they are wrong. The question is do we want to go to insults or skip that part?

---

Good Lord - what does the numbering of the Ten Commandments have to do with the fact that Roman Catholics are breaking the one about idols??

---

Idolatry
2112 The first commandment condemns polytheism. It requires man neither to believe in, nor to venerate, other divinities than the one true God. Scripture constantly recalls this rejection of "idols, (of) silver and gold, the work of men's hands. They have mouths, but do not speak; eyes, but do not see." These empty idols make their worshippers empty: "Those who make them are like them; so are all who trust in them."42 God, however, is the "living God"43 who gives life and intervenes in history.

2113 Idolatry not only refers to false pagan worship. It remains a constant temptation to faith. Idolatry consists in divinizing what is not God. Man commits idolatry whenever he honors and reveres a creature in place of God, whether this be gods or demons (for example, satanism), power, pleasure, race, ancestors, the state, money, etc. Jesus says, "You cannot serve God and mammon."44 Many martyrs died for not adoring "the Beast"45 refusing even to simulate such worship. Idolatry rejects the unique Lordship of God; it is therefore incompatible with communion with God.46

2114 Human life finds its unity in the adoration of the one God. the commandment to worship the Lord alone integrates man and saves him from an endless disintegration. Idolatry is a perversion of man's innate religious sense. An idolater is someone who "transfers his indestructible notion of God to anything other than God."47


There you go, that is what Catholics believe, we do not believe in idolatry. Like it or not.

---

I am glad that the official statements do recognize that idolatry is a sin. That is good. However, the practice of bowing to statues, kissing statues, and especially doing this to statues of Mary... that is the text book definition of bowing to a graven image. Mary is not God... even the Catholic catechism agrees with that statement. However, many Catholics (including the Pope) pray prayers to Mary and pray more to Mary than to God. They sing songs to Mary. I know that the official statements claim that this is not worship, but "veneration"... but it is a distinction without a difference.

What is worship? The word is derived from the Old English weorscipe, meaning to venerate "worship, honour shown to an object or deity,[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worship#cite_note-Bosworth-2][2][/url] which has been etymologised as "worthiness or worth-ship"to give, at its simplest, worth to something.

So to venerate is to worship.

If you saw someone engaged in idolatry to a pagan god, what would they be doing? Offering up prayers, singing songs, declaring their devotion to the god, building altars & shrines to the god, creating statues & other forms of idols to the god..... yes, that is how we see someone engaged in idolatry to a pagan god... it is also exactly what hundreds of millions of catholics do around the world with Mary.

I know you want to believe that Catholics do not idolize Mary, but there is no difference between how Catholics treat Mary and Buddhist treat Buda.

We are supposed to pray to God for healing, protection, salvation, blessings,... and yet the Pope does this to Mary. Look again at these prayers offered up by the Pope, and show me where the Pope is asking Mary to ask Jesus for these things. He is not. He is directly asking Mary herself to give healing, blessings, forgiveness, etc.

I'm sorry to say it, but he Catholic statements and the Catholic practices do not line up. It is idolatry... unless you want to claim that Mary is part of the Trinity.

https://images.app.goo.gl/zXYjFmtm1edKd2sE8

https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=767552940317488&set=a.146917329047722&__cft__[0]=AZX7p-9NCVn-rEor6zD8l7ybXshIzgoodGXwQAWt2ZMB9R3sWwHRYUj-mzD75xHmHjccTCj9Kf0VOzzRsTNOv4wmPi_VSm8QBeb5srryZDYGmWCnwL3RxKTVZ2h6wABlAUOYEXt00699EjD88GY7IKzVMOUxoR1W4aMrp_7xUVpiaA&__tn__=EH-R

How can you look at these images and read these prayers, and not see the obvious worship & devotion to a human woman... not God, a woman. Granted, she was very blessed & honored... but that doesn't make her God.

---

As I said early on, seems like months ago, it is a practice that I do not take part. I have never done a novena, the Hail Mary is the Magnificat from the Bible and I do not take part in that aspect of Catholicism. But, that is me.

I know A LOT of women that do feel a closeness to Mary and ask for intervention.

One of the things I like about the Catholic Church is that it is big enough to allow for people to come to God on different paths. Everyone is different, thinks differently and processes information differently. It makes sense to me that God would take that into consideration, call it a logical deduction.

As long as we are on THE road there may be different lanes. I think of yours as the Express Lane, not a lot of room for variation. My point is that I do not tell you yours is wrong or try to force you in a lane that does not work for how you process information. I hope we end up in the same place. Will we? Who knows, it has all been modified since 33 AD. I have faith we will.

---

I seriously do not think that idolatry of Mary is a path that God will accept.

And you didn't take a stance on it: IS it idolatry of Mary, or not?

---

The path is not the destination.

---

It's a path that God doesn't accept because of the destination.

---

Here is the destination of that idolatrous path, embodied in the highest ranked person taking that same path:

Pope Francis - "Mary is not only the bridge joining us to God; she is more. She is the road that God travelled to reach us, and the road that we must travel in order to reach him."

If you call yourself a Christian, and you truly can't see what's wrong there, then either you aren't one, or you are one who is blind, foolish, and completely deceived.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Coke Bear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Coke Bear said:

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Coke Bear said:

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-Given the fact that Pope Damasus I, at the Council of Rome in 382, endorsed the full 73-book canon of the Bible, when do you argue that Catholics were "adding books" to the Bible? Were the Deuterocanonical books in the first addition of the KJV?

---> Evidently, then, at this time.

---

Well, this is the same time that the NT was ratified by the Church, so I suppose that you should accept the 46-book OT. Awesome! Welcome one step closer to the Truth of the Catholic Church! God Bless and Welcome Home! Please locate a Catholic Church near you and enroll in OCIA. Classes should start in September.

---

Actually, the Roman Catholic Church didn't officially canonize the apocryphal books until the Council of Trent in 1546. Less than 500 years ago.

And your point that you're trying to make is utterly confusing - since I think the RCC added books to the canon of the Bible when 73 books were endorsed in 382..... that means I should accept the apocrypha?? That is completely incoherent. Maybe you shouldn't be posting in the middle of the night. Were you drinking? Get some sleep.

---

No, you should accept the 73-book canon because that is the correct canon.

My point here is that the Council or Rome is the first to accept the NT as canon. If they got that right, then they got the OT correct.

---

You've got to be kidding with that logic. Fallacy of composition of the worst kind. By that argument, I can say (from a Roman Catholic's perspective) that since Martin Luther got the perpetual virginity of Mary right, then it means he got the Reformation right as well.

I can't believe you actually typed that.

---

You've made made another silly analogy again. With the guidance of the Holy Spirit, the same men that discussed and decided what the NT books should be are the same men that listed what the OT should be during that Council of Rome.

The Church has always believed the perpetual virginity of Mary. You should too.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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I'm asking a serious question - do you really not understand the stupidity of your point? Why wouldn't the "drafters" use exact quotes from their own Greek translation of the Tanakh??

---

No stretching here. The Septuagint had NO distinction between cannon and Deuterocanon.

The same men that wrote the Bible are the same men that used ALL of the Septuagint and considered it cannon.

When did the Catholic Church add the 7 books of the Deuterocanon to the Bible?

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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curtpenn said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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ShooterTX said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

ShooterTX said:

---

Been away for awhile.
Don't have time right now to read everything here.

Had anyone addressed the 2nd commandment, and why it's missing from the catholic version of the 10 commandments?
I have heard Catholics defend this by saying that the 2nd is just part of the law against false gods... so it's redundant and doesn't need to be included. That seems lie a very weak excuse for eliminating something that God spoke. Why do Catholics need to edit God?
Is it because God specifically says not to bow down to graven images?
Exodus 20:4-5 NIV
[4] "You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. [5] You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,

Of course the Catholics say that they don't bow down or worship the images of Mary, but...

https://www.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=pfbid02ACJAiPbXqGojMeBDRvrS3P9YeSmj4EmwUGNUiAZaihTRTzTHYg85CwFD9PKMdpgMl&id=100068429748592

https://images.app.goo.gl/oN3ZKQssSKUy1EUAA

https://images.app.goo.gl/jiEa5fZ3dDHwhZec6

https://images.app.goo.gl/zXYjFmtm1edKd2sE8

But hey.... no prayers, bowing or worship to an image going on here, right?

---

The Catechism 2112 addresses the 1st Commandment and idolatry.

The Catholic Church uses St Augustine's numbering of the 10 Commandments. You know him, the guy earlier in the thread you guys were saying was the authority on either Mary, Sola Scriptura or one of the Protestant believes. It changes depending on the subject which ones any of us believe.

If I remember correctly Lutherans and Catholics use St Augustine, Catholic Orthodox and Protestants use Origen's version. They differ. We won't agree that the Catechism addresses it in 2112, as the Catholics and Protestants haven't for 1500 years.

My understanding is the difference lies in whether you are worshiping God or a false God. Once again, we won't agree.

So, do we want to continue to fight the Reformation? It will pretty much go as it has for 1500 years and the last 2 weeks. Both sides say something, the other side says they are wrong. The question is do we want to go to insults or skip that part?

---

Good Lord - what does the numbering of the Ten Commandments have to do with the fact that Roman Catholics are breaking the one about idols??

---

Idolatry
2112 The first commandment condemns polytheism. It requires man neither to believe in, nor to venerate, other divinities than the one true God. Scripture constantly recalls this rejection of "idols, (of) silver and gold, the work of men's hands. They have mouths, but do not speak; eyes, but do not see." These empty idols make their worshippers empty: "Those who make them are like them; so are all who trust in them."42 God, however, is the "living God"43 who gives life and intervenes in history.

2113 Idolatry not only refers to false pagan worship. It remains a constant temptation to faith. Idolatry consists in divinizing what is not God. Man commits idolatry whenever he honors and reveres a creature in place of God, whether this be gods or demons (for example, satanism), power, pleasure, race, ancestors, the state, money, etc. Jesus says, "You cannot serve God and mammon."44 Many martyrs died for not adoring "the Beast"45 refusing even to simulate such worship. Idolatry rejects the unique Lordship of God; it is therefore incompatible with communion with God.46

2114 Human life finds its unity in the adoration of the one God. the commandment to worship the Lord alone integrates man and saves him from an endless disintegration. Idolatry is a perversion of man's innate religious sense. An idolater is someone who "transfers his indestructible notion of God to anything other than God."47


There you go, that is what Catholics believe, we do not believe in idolatry. Like it or not.

---

I am glad that the official statements do recognize that idolatry is a sin. That is good. However, the practice of bowing to statues, kissing statues, and especially doing this to statues of Mary... that is the text book definition of bowing to a graven image. Mary is not God... even the Catholic catechism agrees with that statement. However, many Catholics (including the Pope) pray prayers to Mary and pray more to Mary than to God. They sing songs to Mary. I know that the official statements claim that this is not worship, but "veneration"... but it is a distinction without a difference.

What is worship? The word is derived from the Old English weorscipe, meaning to venerate "worship, honour shown to an object or deity,[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worship#cite_note-Bosworth-2][2][/url] which has been etymologised as "worthiness or worth-ship"to give, at its simplest, worth to something.

So to venerate is to worship.

If you saw someone engaged in idolatry to a pagan god, what would they be doing? Offering up prayers, singing songs, declaring their devotion to the god, building altars & shrines to the god, creating statues & other forms of idols to the god..... yes, that is how we see someone engaged in idolatry to a pagan god... it is also exactly what hundreds of millions of catholics do around the world with Mary.

I know you want to believe that Catholics do not idolize Mary, but there is no difference between how Catholics treat Mary and Buddhist treat Buda.

We are supposed to pray to God for healing, protection, salvation, blessings,... and yet the Pope does this to Mary. Look again at these prayers offered up by the Pope, and show me where the Pope is asking Mary to ask Jesus for these things. He is not. He is directly asking Mary herself to give healing, blessings, forgiveness, etc.

I'm sorry to say it, but he Catholic statements and the Catholic practices do not line up. It is idolatry... unless you want to claim that Mary is part of the Trinity.

https://images.app.goo.gl/zXYjFmtm1edKd2sE8

https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=767552940317488&set=a.146917329047722&__cft__[0]=AZX7p-9NCVn-rEor6zD8l7ybXshIzgoodGXwQAWt2ZMB9R3sWwHRYUj-mzD75xHmHjccTCj9Kf0VOzzRsTNOv4wmPi_VSm8QBeb5srryZDYGmWCnwL3RxKTVZ2h6wABlAUOYEXt00699EjD88GY7IKzVMOUxoR1W4aMrp_7xUVpiaA&__tn__=EH-R

How can you look at these images and read these prayers, and not see the obvious worship & devotion to a human woman... not God, a woman. Granted, she was very blessed & honored... but that doesn't make her God.

---

As I said early on, seems like months ago, it is a practice that I do not take part. I have never done a novena, the Hail Mary is the Magnificat from the Bible and I do not take part in that aspect of Catholicism. But, that is me.

I know A LOT of women that do feel a closeness to Mary and ask for intervention.

One of the things I like about the Catholic Church is that it is big enough to allow for people to come to God on different paths. Everyone is different, thinks differently and processes information differently. It makes sense to me that God would take that into consideration, call it a logical deduction.

As long as we are on THE road there may be different lanes. I think of yours as the Express Lane, not a lot of room for variation. My point is that I do not tell you yours is wrong or try to force you in a lane that does not work for how you process information. I hope we end up in the same place. Will we? Who knows, it has all been modified since 33 AD. I have faith we will.

---

I seriously do not think that idolatry of Mary is a path that God will accept.

And you didn't take a stance on it: IS it idolatry of Mary, or not?

---

The path is not the destination.

---

It's a path that God doesn't accept because of the destination.

---

Stupid assertion.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

ShooterTX said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

ShooterTX said:

---

Been away for awhile.
Don't have time right now to read everything here.

Had anyone addressed the 2nd commandment, and why it's missing from the catholic version of the 10 commandments?
I have heard Catholics defend this by saying that the 2nd is just part of the law against false gods... so it's redundant and doesn't need to be included. That seems lie a very weak excuse for eliminating something that God spoke. Why do Catholics need to edit God?
Is it because God specifically says not to bow down to graven images?
Exodus 20:4-5 NIV
[4] "You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. [5] You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,

Of course the Catholics say that they don't bow down or worship the images of Mary, but...

https://www.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=pfbid02ACJAiPbXqGojMeBDRvrS3P9YeSmj4EmwUGNUiAZaihTRTzTHYg85CwFD9PKMdpgMl&id=100068429748592

https://images.app.goo.gl/oN3ZKQssSKUy1EUAA

https://images.app.goo.gl/jiEa5fZ3dDHwhZec6

https://images.app.goo.gl/zXYjFmtm1edKd2sE8

But hey.... no prayers, bowing or worship to an image going on here, right?

---

The Catechism 2112 addresses the 1st Commandment and idolatry.

The Catholic Church uses St Augustine's numbering of the 10 Commandments. You know him, the guy earlier in the thread you guys were saying was the authority on either Mary, Sola Scriptura or one of the Protestant believes. It changes depending on the subject which ones any of us believe.

If I remember correctly Lutherans and Catholics use St Augustine, Catholic Orthodox and Protestants use Origen's version. They differ. We won't agree that the Catechism addresses it in 2112, as the Catholics and Protestants haven't for 1500 years.

My understanding is the difference lies in whether you are worshiping God or a false God. Once again, we won't agree.

So, do we want to continue to fight the Reformation? It will pretty much go as it has for 1500 years and the last 2 weeks. Both sides say something, the other side says they are wrong. The question is do we want to go to insults or skip that part?

---

Good Lord - what does the numbering of the Ten Commandments have to do with the fact that Roman Catholics are breaking the one about idols??

---

Idolatry
2112 The first commandment condemns polytheism. It requires man neither to believe in, nor to venerate, other divinities than the one true God. Scripture constantly recalls this rejection of "idols, (of) silver and gold, the work of men's hands. They have mouths, but do not speak; eyes, but do not see." These empty idols make their worshippers empty: "Those who make them are like them; so are all who trust in them."42 God, however, is the "living God"43 who gives life and intervenes in history.

2113 Idolatry not only refers to false pagan worship. It remains a constant temptation to faith. Idolatry consists in divinizing what is not God. Man commits idolatry whenever he honors and reveres a creature in place of God, whether this be gods or demons (for example, satanism), power, pleasure, race, ancestors, the state, money, etc. Jesus says, "You cannot serve God and mammon."44 Many martyrs died for not adoring "the Beast"45 refusing even to simulate such worship. Idolatry rejects the unique Lordship of God; it is therefore incompatible with communion with God.46

2114 Human life finds its unity in the adoration of the one God. the commandment to worship the Lord alone integrates man and saves him from an endless disintegration. Idolatry is a perversion of man's innate religious sense. An idolater is someone who "transfers his indestructible notion of God to anything other than God."47


There you go, that is what Catholics believe, we do not believe in idolatry. Like it or not.

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I am glad that the official statements do recognize that idolatry is a sin. That is good. However, the practice of bowing to statues, kissing statues, and especially doing this to statues of Mary... that is the text book definition of bowing to a graven image. Mary is not God... even the Catholic catechism agrees with that statement. However, many Catholics (including the Pope) pray prayers to Mary and pray more to Mary than to God. They sing songs to Mary. I know that the official statements claim that this is not worship, but "veneration"... but it is a distinction without a difference.

What is worship? The word is derived from the Old English weorscipe, meaning to venerate "worship, honour shown to an object or deity,[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worship#cite_note-Bosworth-2][2][/url] which has been etymologised as "worthiness or worth-ship"to give, at its simplest, worth to something.

So to venerate is to worship.

If you saw someone engaged in idolatry to a pagan god, what would they be doing? Offering up prayers, singing songs, declaring their devotion to the god, building altars & shrines to the god, creating statues & other forms of idols to the god..... yes, that is how we see someone engaged in idolatry to a pagan god... it is also exactly what hundreds of millions of catholics do around the world with Mary.

I know you want to believe that Catholics do not idolize Mary, but there is no difference between how Catholics treat Mary and Buddhist treat Buda.

We are supposed to pray to God for healing, protection, salvation, blessings,... and yet the Pope does this to Mary. Look again at these prayers offered up by the Pope, and show me where the Pope is asking Mary to ask Jesus for these things. He is not. He is directly asking Mary herself to give healing, blessings, forgiveness, etc.

I'm sorry to say it, but he Catholic statements and the Catholic practices do not line up. It is idolatry... unless you want to claim that Mary is part of the Trinity.

https://images.app.goo.gl/zXYjFmtm1edKd2sE8

https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=767552940317488&set=a.146917329047722&__cft__[0]=AZX7p-9NCVn-rEor6zD8l7ybXshIzgoodGXwQAWt2ZMB9R3sWwHRYUj-mzD75xHmHjccTCj9Kf0VOzzRsTNOv4wmPi_VSm8QBeb5srryZDYGmWCnwL3RxKTVZ2h6wABlAUOYEXt00699EjD88GY7IKzVMOUxoR1W4aMrp_7xUVpiaA&__tn__=EH-R

How can you look at these images and read these prayers, and not see the obvious worship & devotion to a human woman... not God, a woman. Granted, she was very blessed & honored... but that doesn't make her God.

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As I said early on, seems like months ago, it is a practice that I do not take part. I have never done a novena, the Hail Mary is the Magnificat from the Bible and I do not take part in that aspect of Catholicism. But, that is me.

I know A LOT of women that do feel a closeness to Mary and ask for intervention.

One of the things I like about the Catholic Church is that it is big enough to allow for people to come to God on different paths. Everyone is different, thinks differently and processes information differently. It makes sense to me that God would take that into consideration, call it a logical deduction.

As long as we are on THE road there may be different lanes. I think of yours as the Express Lane, not a lot of room for variation. My point is that I do not tell you yours is wrong or try to force you in a lane that does not work for how you process information. I hope we end up in the same place. Will we? Who knows, it has all been modified since 33 AD. I have faith we will.

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I seriously do not think that idolatry of Mary is a path that God will accept.

And you didn't take a stance on it: IS it idolatry of Mary, or not?

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No it is not and the Catholic Catechism clearly states that.

So, what you are saying is that everything your side has shown in writing is dead on and not disputable. But, what the Catholic Church shows you in writing is "well, we really know what is going on"? Sort of disingenuous don't you think? I am supposed to take your guy's stuff at face value because some guy from Cambridge who specializes in medieval Britain says something. Yet, the Catechism of the Catholic Church, THE answer book, is not to be believed?

You asked a question - Is it worship of Mary. I have told you NO and shown you in the Catechism where is explains we do not worship Mary. Not enough?

Channel your inner Billy Graham, he was more Catholic than Radical Protestant... He got it. He was Buddies with Bishop Fulton Sheen and Pope JP2. I know sell out...

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So the Reformation is correct, because the Reformers said so.
That really is how you're arguing.

So you don't think it's idolatry to: bow to and kiss statues of Mary, pray to her, sing hymns to her in church, have statues and pictures of her all over your house, hold nearly a hundred festivals for her per year, and have prayers which call Mary "sovereign", "ruler of my house", "our hope and refuge", "peacemaker between sinners and God", "Mediatrix", "god of this world", and that tell you to "place your salvation in Mary's hands", and that ask her that she "grant that we may go to heaven".....

Then I'm sorry, but you are totally deceived and you have no discernment whatsoever. This is not characteristic of someone with the Holy Spirit, thus someone who is saved. Idolatry just doesn't get more screamingly obvious than this. You and everyone else who agrees with you really needs to ask God to open your eyes.

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You asked, we provided. Believe or not. Really do not care.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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- the "Catholic Church" (universal church) was founded by Jesus. The "Roman Catholic Church" was founded when Constantine made Christianity the official religion of Rome (which caused Christianity there to compromise with pagan worship in Rome). The term "pope" was first used in the third century. Though this isn't the same meaning as what "pope" means to the Roman Catholic Church.

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Yes, it was Constantine's Edict of Milan and his own patronage in the Church which set the precedent of the Roman Emperor's influence in the Church (convoking ecumenical councils) that began the Roman influence over Christianity. It was Constantine's convoking of the Council of Nicaea which began Nicene Christianity (based on the Nicene Creed) which later became the official state religion of Rome by the Edict of Thessalonica in 380. Constantine was ultimately responsible for making Christianity the official religion of Rome, absolutely.

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There is no such thing as the "ROMAN Catholic Church." There is only the CATHOLIC Church, which Jesus founded. There is a "Roman" rite, which is actually called the Latin or Western rite. It is the largest of all the rites.

Back to point, if Constantine "created" the "Roman Catholic Church", where did all the bishops come from for the first 300 years before him and the 318 bishops at the Council? Why were there bishops from Antioch, Jerusalem, and Alexandria at the Council?

BTW, it was Emperor Theodosius I that made Christianity the official religion of Rome. Constantine was long dead by that point.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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History shows that there wasn't a singular, ruling bishop in Rome until about the 140-150's AD. Up until then, the church in Rome was presided over by a group of presbyters (elders). The first clear evidence of there being a single bishop shows that it was probably Anicetus.

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What do you do with Irenaeus' list of the first bishops of Rome, "Against Heresies," written between 175-180 AD. He lists them all back to Peter. How do you address that Eusebius had the same list in his work "Ecclesiastical History" between 312 and 324 AD.

Coke Bear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Coke Bear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Coke Bear said:

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Coke Bear said:

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-Given the fact that Pope Damasus I, at the Council of Rome in 382, endorsed the full 73-book canon of the Bible, when do you argue that Catholics were "adding books" to the Bible? Were the Deuterocanonical books in the first addition of the KJV?

---> Evidently, then, at this time.

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Well, this is the same time that the NT was ratified by the Church, so I suppose that you should accept the 46-book OT. Awesome! Welcome one step closer to the Truth of the Catholic Church! God Bless and Welcome Home! Please locate a Catholic Church near you and enroll in OCIA. Classes should start in September.

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Actually, the Roman Catholic Church didn't officially canonize the apocryphal books until the Council of Trent in 1546. Less than 500 years ago.

And your point that you're trying to make is utterly confusing - since I think the RCC added books to the canon of the Bible when 73 books were endorsed in 382..... that means I should accept the apocrypha?? That is completely incoherent. Maybe you shouldn't be posting in the middle of the night. Were you drinking? Get some sleep.

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No, you should accept the 73-book canon because that is the correct canon.

My point here is that the Council or Rome is the first to accept the NT as canon. If they got that right, then they got the OT correct.

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You've got to be kidding with that logic. Fallacy of composition of the worst kind. By that argument, I can say (from a Roman Catholic's perspective) that since Martin Luther got the perpetual virginity of Mary right, then it means he got the Reformation right as well.

I can't believe you actually typed that.

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You've made made another silly analogy again. With the guidance of the Holy Spirit, the same men that discussed and decided what the NT books should be are the same men that listed what the OT should be during that Council of Rome.

The Church has always believed the perpetual virginity of Mary. You should too.

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But by the same guidance of the Holy Spirit that led Martin Luther to believe in the perpetual virginity of Mary, it also led him to the Reformation. Your argument still fails.

There's no reason to believe in Mary's perpetual virginity because there's nothing biblical to support it. In fact, the bible goes against it. And the Church did NOT always believe in the perpetual virginity of Mary. It started in and around the 4th century. The only evidence of it earlier than that is from a Gnostic writing (a heresy) which was condemned by a pope in the 5th century. So most certainly it was not a belief from the early Christian church.

Coke Bear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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I'm asking a serious question - do you really not understand the stupidity of your point? Why wouldn't the "drafters" use exact quotes from their own Greek translation of the Tanakh??

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No stretching here. The Septuagint had NO distinction between cannon and Deuterocanon.

The same men that wrote the Bible are the same men that used ALL of the Septuagint and considered it cannon.

When did the Catholic Church add the 7 books of the Deuterocanon to the Bible?

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The Trump Bible made no distinction between Trump's foreword and the Bible with regard to canonicity.

The men who wrote the Bible did NOT use "all" the Septuagint - not once did they use the apocrypha.

Exactly right - the Catholic church "added seven books to the Bible".

curtpenn said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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curtpenn said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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ShooterTX said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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ShooterTX said:

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Been away for awhile.
Don't have time right now to read everything here.

Had anyone addressed the 2nd commandment, and why it's missing from the catholic version of the 10 commandments?
I have heard Catholics defend this by saying that the 2nd is just part of the law against false gods... so it's redundant and doesn't need to be included. That seems lie a very weak excuse for eliminating something that God spoke. Why do Catholics need to edit God?
Is it because God specifically says not to bow down to graven images?
Exodus 20:4-5 NIV
[4] "You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. [5] You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,

Of course the Catholics say that they don't bow down or worship the images of Mary, but...

https://www.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=pfbid02ACJAiPbXqGojMeBDRvrS3P9YeSmj4EmwUGNUiAZaihTRTzTHYg85CwFD9PKMdpgMl&id=100068429748592

https://images.app.goo.gl/oN3ZKQssSKUy1EUAA

https://images.app.goo.gl/jiEa5fZ3dDHwhZec6

https://images.app.goo.gl/zXYjFmtm1edKd2sE8

But hey.... no prayers, bowing or worship to an image going on here, right?

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The Catechism 2112 addresses the 1st Commandment and idolatry.

The Catholic Church uses St Augustine's numbering of the 10 Commandments. You know him, the guy earlier in the thread you guys were saying was the authority on either Mary, Sola Scriptura or one of the Protestant believes. It changes depending on the subject which ones any of us believe.

If I remember correctly Lutherans and Catholics use St Augustine, Catholic Orthodox and Protestants use Origen's version. They differ. We won't agree that the Catechism addresses it in 2112, as the Catholics and Protestants haven't for 1500 years.

My understanding is the difference lies in whether you are worshiping God or a false God. Once again, we won't agree.

So, do we want to continue to fight the Reformation? It will pretty much go as it has for 1500 years and the last 2 weeks. Both sides say something, the other side says they are wrong. The question is do we want to go to insults or skip that part?

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Good Lord - what does the numbering of the Ten Commandments have to do with the fact that Roman Catholics are breaking the one about idols??

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Idolatry
2112 The first commandment condemns polytheism. It requires man neither to believe in, nor to venerate, other divinities than the one true God. Scripture constantly recalls this rejection of "idols, (of) silver and gold, the work of men's hands. They have mouths, but do not speak; eyes, but do not see." These empty idols make their worshippers empty: "Those who make them are like them; so are all who trust in them."42 God, however, is the "living God"43 who gives life and intervenes in history.

2113 Idolatry not only refers to false pagan worship. It remains a constant temptation to faith. Idolatry consists in divinizing what is not God. Man commits idolatry whenever he honors and reveres a creature in place of God, whether this be gods or demons (for example, satanism), power, pleasure, race, ancestors, the state, money, etc. Jesus says, "You cannot serve God and mammon."44 Many martyrs died for not adoring "the Beast"45 refusing even to simulate such worship. Idolatry rejects the unique Lordship of God; it is therefore incompatible with communion with God.46

2114 Human life finds its unity in the adoration of the one God. the commandment to worship the Lord alone integrates man and saves him from an endless disintegration. Idolatry is a perversion of man's innate religious sense. An idolater is someone who "transfers his indestructible notion of God to anything other than God."47


There you go, that is what Catholics believe, we do not believe in idolatry. Like it or not.

---

I am glad that the official statements do recognize that idolatry is a sin. That is good. However, the practice of bowing to statues, kissing statues, and especially doing this to statues of Mary... that is the text book definition of bowing to a graven image. Mary is not God... even the Catholic catechism agrees with that statement. However, many Catholics (including the Pope) pray prayers to Mary and pray more to Mary than to God. They sing songs to Mary. I know that the official statements claim that this is not worship, but "veneration"... but it is a distinction without a difference.

What is worship? The word is derived from the Old English weorscipe, meaning to venerate "worship, honour shown to an object or deity,[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worship#cite_note-Bosworth-2][2][/url] which has been etymologised as "worthiness or worth-ship"to give, at its simplest, worth to something.

So to venerate is to worship.

If you saw someone engaged in idolatry to a pagan god, what would they be doing? Offering up prayers, singing songs, declaring their devotion to the god, building altars & shrines to the god, creating statues & other forms of idols to the god..... yes, that is how we see someone engaged in idolatry to a pagan god... it is also exactly what hundreds of millions of catholics do around the world with Mary.

I know you want to believe that Catholics do not idolize Mary, but there is no difference between how Catholics treat Mary and Buddhist treat Buda.

We are supposed to pray to God for healing, protection, salvation, blessings,... and yet the Pope does this to Mary. Look again at these prayers offered up by the Pope, and show me where the Pope is asking Mary to ask Jesus for these things. He is not. He is directly asking Mary herself to give healing, blessings, forgiveness, etc.

I'm sorry to say it, but he Catholic statements and the Catholic practices do not line up. It is idolatry... unless you want to claim that Mary is part of the Trinity.

https://images.app.goo.gl/zXYjFmtm1edKd2sE8

https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=767552940317488&set=a.146917329047722&__cft__[0]=AZX7p-9NCVn-rEor6zD8l7ybXshIzgoodGXwQAWt2ZMB9R3sWwHRYUj-mzD75xHmHjccTCj9Kf0VOzzRsTNOv4wmPi_VSm8QBeb5srryZDYGmWCnwL3RxKTVZ2h6wABlAUOYEXt00699EjD88GY7IKzVMOUxoR1W4aMrp_7xUVpiaA&__tn__=EH-R

How can you look at these images and read these prayers, and not see the obvious worship & devotion to a human woman... not God, a woman. Granted, she was very blessed & honored... but that doesn't make her God.

---

As I said early on, seems like months ago, it is a practice that I do not take part. I have never done a novena, the Hail Mary is the Magnificat from the Bible and I do not take part in that aspect of Catholicism. But, that is me.

I know A LOT of women that do feel a closeness to Mary and ask for intervention.

One of the things I like about the Catholic Church is that it is big enough to allow for people to come to God on different paths. Everyone is different, thinks differently and processes information differently. It makes sense to me that God would take that into consideration, call it a logical deduction.

As long as we are on THE road there may be different lanes. I think of yours as the Express Lane, not a lot of room for variation. My point is that I do not tell you yours is wrong or try to force you in a lane that does not work for how you process information. I hope we end up in the same place. Will we? Who knows, it has all been modified since 33 AD. I have faith we will.

---

I seriously do not think that idolatry of Mary is a path that God will accept.

And you didn't take a stance on it: IS it idolatry of Mary, or not?

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The path is not the destination.

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It's a path that God doesn't accept because of the destination.

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Stupid assertion.

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Coming from you, I should say thanks!

Coke Bear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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- the "Catholic Church" (universal church) was founded by Jesus. The "Roman Catholic Church" was founded when Constantine made Christianity the official religion of Rome (which caused Christianity there to compromise with pagan worship in Rome). The term "pope" was first used in the third century. Though this isn't the same meaning as what "pope" means to the Roman Catholic Church.

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Yes, it was Constantine's Edict of Milan and his own patronage in the Church which set the precedent of the Roman Emperor's influence in the Church (convoking ecumenical councils) that began the Roman influence over Christianity. It was Constantine's convoking of the Council of Nicaea which began Nicene Christianity (based on the Nicene Creed) which later became the official state religion of Rome by the Edict of Thessalonica in 380. Constantine was ultimately responsible for making Christianity the official religion of Rome, absolutely.

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There is no such thing as the "ROMAN Catholic Church." There is only the CATHOLIC Church, which Jesus founded. There is a "Roman" rite, which is actually called the Latin or Western rite. It is the largest of all the rites.

Back to point, if Constantine "created" the "Roman Catholic Church", where did all the bishops come from for the first 300 years before him and the 318 bishops at the Council? Why were there bishops from Antioch, Jerusalem, and Alexandria at the Council?

BTW, it was Emperor Theodosius I that made Christianity the official religion of Rome. Constantine was long dead by that point.

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The "Roman" Catholic Church started when the Roman state entered the Church. ALL of the ecumenical church councils thereafter were convoked by the emperor of Rome, not by any pope. It started with Constantine. The Roman Catholic Church compromised with pagan Rome in order to incorporate the pagans and their worship into Christianity. That's why you have Mary and saint worship - they are merely converted pagan gods and goddesses.

The Roman Catholic Church did not have to invent "bishops" in order to become the Roman Catholic Church, just as they didn't have to invent the books of the New Testament or Jesus to become the Roman Catholic Church.

Constantine started the Romanization of Christianity. It was only made officlal later in the Edict of Thessalonica.

Coke Bear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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History shows that there wasn't a singular, ruling bishop in Rome until about the 140-150's AD. Up until then, the church in Rome was presided over by a group of presbyters (elders). The first clear evidence of there being a single bishop shows that it was probably Anicetus.

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What do you do with Irenaeus' list of the first bishops of Rome, "Against Heresies," written between 175-180 AD. He lists them all back to Peter. How do you address that Eusebius had the same list in his work "Ecclesiastical History" between 312 and 324 AD.

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What do you do with the fact that Irenaeus' contemporary, Tertullian, doesn't agree with Irenaeus' or Eusebius' list? And what do you do with the fact that Irenaeus said that Jesus was over 50 years old when he was crucified? I'd say that in the least, the history is very unclear and unreliable. These writers and their lists are likely going by retrospective tradition where Peter, Linus, Clement etc were posthumously "promoted" to the office of bishop of Rome so that Roman Catholicism could make a traceable list going all the way back to Jesus. Here is an excerpt from a book by Roman Catholic scholar Roger Collins in his book Keeper of the Keys of Heaven: A History of the Papacy, describing this view about those lists of popes by Irenaeus, Tertullian, and Eusebius:

"The late second century authors were probably reporting a tradition that had grown up in Rome in which leading figures amongst the elders of their day were retrospectively turned into bishops, to produce a continuous list of holders of the office stretching back to Peter."

He continues:

"... it would be helpful to ask which of the people named by Irenaeus and Tertullian should be regarded as the first real bishop of [Rome]. Most scholars now agree that the answer would be Anicetus, who comes in tenth on both lists, and whose episcopate likely covered the years 155 to 166 AD."