Pretty much!

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

How do you figure it's been debunked?

---

Examination and testing.

4th and Inches said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

How do you figure it's been debunked?

---

ScIeNcE!

He will write you a bunch of things that are the greatest wisdom of men to tell you how it and all other things related to supernatural things arent real.

Science is the explanation of the natural, it is a surprised to nobody that they have trouble explaining the supernatural

---

I'll take science over mysticism every time.

We live in the natural world (reality). You can't explain something that doesn't exist, except to give it a name: supernatural. Supernatural = nonexistent.

TexasScientist said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

How do you figure it's been debunked?

---

ScIeNcE!

He will write you a bunch of things that are the greatest wisdom of men to tell you how it and all other things related to supernatural things arent real.

Science is the explanation of the natural, it is a surprised to nobody that they have trouble explaining the supernatural

---

I'll take science over mysticism every time.

We live in the natural world (reality). You can't explain something that doesn't exist, except to give it a name: supernatural. Supernatural = nonexistent.

---

I have had experiences that cannot be explained by your science.. were they non existent?

You have a limited world view based on what you know and that is ok. Maybe one day, you will know more..

I used to believe like you, I didnt grow up in the church. Now I know more..

4th and Inches said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

How do you figure it's been debunked?

---

ScIeNcE!

He will write you a bunch of things that are the greatest wisdom of men to tell you how it and all other things related to supernatural things arent real.

Science is the explanation of the natural, it is a surprised to nobody that they have trouble explaining the supernatural

---

I'll take science over mysticism every time.

We live in the natural world (reality). You can't explain something that doesn't exist, except to give it a name: supernatural. Supernatural = nonexistent.

---

I have had experiences that cannot be explained by your science.. were they non existent?

You have a limited world view based on what you know and that is ok. Maybe one day, you will know more..

I used to believe like you, I didnt grow up in the church. Now I know more..

---

I would suggest that your experiences most likely can be explained. Even your fire tunnels. Science has been continuously closing the gaps that you insert a god for explanation.

Limited world view based on what you know? I think you have that backwards. Science seeks to answer questions about the unknown. Religion purports to know the answer before the question is even asked.

TexasScientist said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

How do you figure it's been debunked?

---

ScIeNcE!

He will write you a bunch of things that are the greatest wisdom of men to tell you how it and all other things related to supernatural things arent real.

Science is the explanation of the natural, it is a surprised to nobody that they have trouble explaining the supernatural

---

I'll take science over mysticism every time.

We live in the natural world (reality). You can't explain something that doesn't exist, except to give it a name: supernatural. Supernatural = nonexistent.

---

I have had experiences that cannot be explained by your science.. were they non existent?

You have a limited world view based on what you know and that is ok. Maybe one day, you will know more..

I used to believe like you, I didnt grow up in the church. Now I know more..

---

I would suggest that your experiences most likely can be explained. Even your fire tunnels. Science has been continuously closing the gaps that you insert a god for explanation.

Limited world view based on what you know? I think you have that backwards. Science seeks to answer questions about the unknown. Religion purports to know the answer before the question is even asked.

---

as I said before, you are set in your opinion and I am steadfast in mine for very personal reasons that I have not been asked by the Holy Spirrit to share.

We can just agree to disagree.

Enjoy your weekend!

4th and Inches said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

How do you figure it's been debunked?

---

ScIeNcE!

He will write you a bunch of things that are the greatest wisdom of men to tell you how it and all other things related to supernatural things arent real.

Science is the explanation of the natural, it is a surprised to nobody that they have trouble explaining the supernatural

---

I'll take science over mysticism every time.

We live in the natural world (reality). You can't explain something that doesn't exist, except to give it a name: supernatural. Supernatural = nonexistent.

---

I have had experiences that cannot be explained by your science.. were they non existent?

You have a limited world view based on what you know and that is ok. Maybe one day, you will know more..

I used to believe like you, I didnt grow up in the church. Now I know more..

---

I would suggest that your experiences most likely can be explained. Even your fire tunnels. Science has been continuously closing the gaps that you insert a god for explanation.

Limited world view based on what you know? I think you have that backwards. Science seeks to answer questions about the unknown. Religion purports to know the answer before the question is even asked.

---

as I said before, you are set in your opinion and I am steadfast in mine for very personal reasons that I have not been asked by the Holy Spirrit to share.

We can just agree to disagree.

Enjoy your weekend!

---

We can do that, and you enjoy yours also.

1 Corinthians 2:9 KJV
[9] But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, Neither have entered into the heart of man, The things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

Please take the time to read this first post if you haven't yet

TexasScientist said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

How do you figure it's been debunked?

---

ScIeNcE!

He will write you a bunch of things that are the greatest wisdom of men to tell you how it and all other things related to supernatural things arent real.

Science is the explanation of the natural, it is a surprised to nobody that they have trouble explaining the supernatural

---

I'll take science over mysticism every time.

We live in the natural world (reality). You can't explain something that doesn't exist, except to give it a name: supernatural. Supernatural = nonexistent.

---

I have had experiences that cannot be explained by your science.. were they non existent?

You have a limited world view based on what you know and that is ok. Maybe one day, you will know more..

I used to believe like you, I didnt grow up in the church. Now I know more..

---

I would suggest that your experiences most likely can be explained. Even your fire tunnels. Science has been continuously closing the gaps that you insert a god for explanation.

Limited world view based on what you know? I think you have that backwards. Science seeks to answer questions about the unknown. Religion purports to know the answer before the question is even asked.

---

as I said before, you are set in your opinion and I am steadfast in mine for very personal reasons that I have not been asked by the Holy Spirrit to share.

We can just agree to disagree.

Enjoy your weekend!

---

We can do that, and you enjoy yours also.

---

Who is Jesus to you? Because if Jesus is who He claimed to be, that changes everything about the old and New Testament.

MadvillainBear20 said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

How do you figure it's been debunked?

---

ScIeNcE!

He will write you a bunch of things that are the greatest wisdom of men to tell you how it and all other things related to supernatural things arent real.

Science is the explanation of the natural, it is a surprised to nobody that they have trouble explaining the supernatural

---

I'll take science over mysticism every time.

We live in the natural world (reality). You can't explain something that doesn't exist, except to give it a name: supernatural. Supernatural = nonexistent.

---

I have had experiences that cannot be explained by your science.. were they non existent?

You have a limited world view based on what you know and that is ok. Maybe one day, you will know more..

I used to believe like you, I didnt grow up in the church. Now I know more..

---

I would suggest that your experiences most likely can be explained. Even your fire tunnels. Science has been continuously closing the gaps that you insert a god for explanation.

Limited world view based on what you know? I think you have that backwards. Science seeks to answer questions about the unknown. Religion purports to know the answer before the question is even asked.

---

as I said before, you are set in your opinion and I am steadfast in mine for very personal reasons that I have not been asked by the Holy Spirrit to share.

We can just agree to disagree.

Enjoy your weekend!

---

We can do that, and you enjoy yours also.

---

Who is Jesus to you? Because if Jesus is who He claimed to be, that changes everything about the old and New Testament.

---

Jesus is the Son of God, He is who He claimed to be. The hundreds of fulfilled prophecies prove this, His miracles, His death and resurrection prove it!

4th and Inches said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

How do you figure it's been debunked?

---

ScIeNcE!

He will write you a bunch of things that are the greatest wisdom of men to tell you how it and all other things related to supernatural things arent real.

Science is the explanation of the natural, it is a surprised to nobody that they have trouble explaining the supernatural

---

I'll take science over mysticism every time.

We live in the natural world (reality). You can't explain something that doesn't exist, except to give it a name: supernatural. Supernatural = nonexistent.

---

I have had experiences that cannot be explained by your science.. were they non existent?

You have a limited world view based on what you know and that is ok. Maybe one day, you will know more..

I used to believe like you, I didnt grow up in the church. Now I know more..

---

I would suggest that your experiences most likely can be explained. Even your fire tunnels. Science has been continuously closing the gaps that you insert a god for explanation.

Limited world view based on what you know? I think you have that backwards. Science seeks to answer questions about the unknown. Religion purports to know the answer before the question is even asked.

---

as I said before, you are set in your opinion and I am steadfast in mine for very personal reasons that I have not been asked by the Holy Spirrit to share.

We can just agree to disagree.

Enjoy your weekend!

---

Can we agree that Scripture Trump's all? It Trumps Chirch tradition, Popes, Teachers, Preachers?

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

How do you figure it's been debunked?

---

ScIeNcE!

He will write you a bunch of things that are the greatest wisdom of men to tell you how it and all other things related to supernatural things arent real.

Science is the explanation of the natural, it is a surprised to nobody that they have trouble explaining the supernatural

---

I'll take science over mysticism every time.

We live in the natural world (reality). You can't explain something that doesn't exist, except to give it a name: supernatural. Supernatural = nonexistent.

---

I have had experiences that cannot be explained by your science.. were they non existent?

You have a limited world view based on what you know and that is ok. Maybe one day, you will know more..

I used to believe like you, I didnt grow up in the church. Now I know more..

---

I would suggest that your experiences most likely can be explained. Even your fire tunnels. Science has been continuously closing the gaps that you insert a god for explanation.

Limited world view based on what you know? I think you have that backwards. Science seeks to answer questions about the unknown. Religion purports to know the answer before the question is even asked.

---

as I said before, you are set in your opinion and I am steadfast in mine for very personal reasons that I have not been asked by the Holy Spirrit to share.

We can just agree to disagree.

Enjoy your weekend!

---

Can we agree that Scripture Trump's all? It Trumps Chirch tradition, Popes, Teachers, Preachers?

---

No. The Church is the pillar and ground of truth according to 1 Tim 3:15

Doc Holliday said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

How do you figure it's been debunked?

---

ScIeNcE!

He will write you a bunch of things that are the greatest wisdom of men to tell you how it and all other things related to supernatural things arent real.

Science is the explanation of the natural, it is a surprised to nobody that they have trouble explaining the supernatural

---

I'll take science over mysticism every time.

We live in the natural world (reality). You can't explain something that doesn't exist, except to give it a name: supernatural. Supernatural = nonexistent.

---

I have had experiences that cannot be explained by your science.. were they non existent?

You have a limited world view based on what you know and that is ok. Maybe one day, you will know more..

I used to believe like you, I didnt grow up in the church. Now I know more..

---

I would suggest that your experiences most likely can be explained. Even your fire tunnels. Science has been continuously closing the gaps that you insert a god for explanation.

Limited world view based on what you know? I think you have that backwards. Science seeks to answer questions about the unknown. Religion purports to know the answer before the question is even asked.

---

as I said before, you are set in your opinion and I am steadfast in mine for very personal reasons that I have not been asked by the Holy Spirrit to share.

We can just agree to disagree.

Enjoy your weekend!

---

Can we agree that Scripture Trump's all? It Trumps Chirch tradition, Popes, Teachers, Preachers?

---

No. The Church is the pillar and ground of truth according to 1 Tim 3:15

---

So the "Church" can go against Scripture?

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

So the "Church" can go against Scripture?

---

Why do you continually make strawman statements?

Where did he said that the "Church can go against Scripture?"

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

How do you figure it's been debunked?

---

ScIeNcE!

He will write you a bunch of things that are the greatest wisdom of men to tell you how it and all other things related to supernatural things arent real.

Science is the explanation of the natural, it is a surprised to nobody that they have trouble explaining the supernatural

---

I'll take science over mysticism every time.

We live in the natural world (reality). You can't explain something that doesn't exist, except to give it a name: supernatural. Supernatural = nonexistent.

---

I have had experiences that cannot be explained by your science.. were they non existent?

You have a limited world view based on what you know and that is ok. Maybe one day, you will know more..

I used to believe like you, I didnt grow up in the church. Now I know more..

---

I would suggest that your experiences most likely can be explained. Even your fire tunnels. Science has been continuously closing the gaps that you insert a god for explanation.

Limited world view based on what you know? I think you have that backwards. Science seeks to answer questions about the unknown. Religion purports to know the answer before the question is even asked.

---

as I said before, you are set in your opinion and I am steadfast in mine for very personal reasons that I have not been asked by the Holy Spirrit to share.

We can just agree to disagree.

Enjoy your weekend!

---

Can we agree that Scripture Trump's all? It Trumps Chirch tradition, Popes, Teachers, Preachers?

---

No. The Church is the pillar and ground of truth according to 1 Tim 3:15

---

So the "Church" can go against Scripture?

---

It cannot and it has not.

Coke Bear said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

So the "Church" can go against Scripture?

---

Why do you continually make strawman statements?

Where did he said that the "Church can go against Scripture?"

---

Why do you continually mis-think?

It's not a straw man. If the Church can't go against Scripture, ever, then Scripture trumps the Church. But he said that it did not.

Doc Holliday said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

How do you figure it's been debunked?

---

ScIeNcE!

He will write you a bunch of things that are the greatest wisdom of men to tell you how it and all other things related to supernatural things arent real.

Science is the explanation of the natural, it is a surprised to nobody that they have trouble explaining the supernatural

---

I'll take science over mysticism every time.

We live in the natural world (reality). You can't explain something that doesn't exist, except to give it a name: supernatural. Supernatural = nonexistent.

---

I have had experiences that cannot be explained by your science.. were they non existent?

You have a limited world view based on what you know and that is ok. Maybe one day, you will know more..

I used to believe like you, I didnt grow up in the church. Now I know more..

---

I would suggest that your experiences most likely can be explained. Even your fire tunnels. Science has been continuously closing the gaps that you insert a god for explanation.

Limited world view based on what you know? I think you have that backwards. Science seeks to answer questions about the unknown. Religion purports to know the answer before the question is even asked.

---

as I said before, you are set in your opinion and I am steadfast in mine for very personal reasons that I have not been asked by the Holy Spirrit to share.

We can just agree to disagree.

Enjoy your weekend!

---

Can we agree that Scripture Trump's all? It Trumps Chirch tradition, Popes, Teachers, Preachers?

---

No. The Church is the pillar and ground of truth according to 1 Tim 3:15

---

So the "Church" can go against Scripture?

---

It cannot and it has not.

---

Then Scripture always trumps the "Church".

Doc Holliday said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

How do you figure it's been debunked?

---

ScIeNcE!

He will write you a bunch of things that are the greatest wisdom of men to tell you how it and all other things related to supernatural things arent real.

Science is the explanation of the natural, it is a surprised to nobody that they have trouble explaining the supernatural

---

I'll take science over mysticism every time.

We live in the natural world (reality). You can't explain something that doesn't exist, except to give it a name: supernatural. Supernatural = nonexistent.

---

I have had experiences that cannot be explained by your science.. were they non existent?

You have a limited world view based on what you know and that is ok. Maybe one day, you will know more..

I used to believe like you, I didnt grow up in the church. Now I know more..

---

I would suggest that your experiences most likely can be explained. Even your fire tunnels. Science has been continuously closing the gaps that you insert a god for explanation.

Limited world view based on what you know? I think you have that backwards. Science seeks to answer questions about the unknown. Religion purports to know the answer before the question is even asked.

---

as I said before, you are set in your opinion and I am steadfast in mine for very personal reasons that I have not been asked by the Holy Spirrit to share.

We can just agree to disagree.

Enjoy your weekend!

---

Can we agree that Scripture Trump's all? It Trumps Chirch tradition, Popes, Teachers, Preachers?

---

No. The Church is the pillar and ground of truth according to 1 Tim 3:15

---

So the "Church" can go against Scripture?

---

It cannot and it has not.

---

How do you know it hasn't?

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

How do you figure it's been debunked?

---

ScIeNcE!

He will write you a bunch of things that are the greatest wisdom of men to tell you how it and all other things related to supernatural things arent real.

Science is the explanation of the natural, it is a surprised to nobody that they have trouble explaining the supernatural

---

I'll take science over mysticism every time.

We live in the natural world (reality). You can't explain something that doesn't exist, except to give it a name: supernatural. Supernatural = nonexistent.

---

I have had experiences that cannot be explained by your science.. were they non existent?

You have a limited world view based on what you know and that is ok. Maybe one day, you will know more..

I used to believe like you, I didnt grow up in the church. Now I know more..

---

I would suggest that your experiences most likely can be explained. Even your fire tunnels. Science has been continuously closing the gaps that you insert a god for explanation.

Limited world view based on what you know? I think you have that backwards. Science seeks to answer questions about the unknown. Religion purports to know the answer before the question is even asked.

---

as I said before, you are set in your opinion and I am steadfast in mine for very personal reasons that I have not been asked by the Holy Spirrit to share.

We can just agree to disagree.

Enjoy your weekend!

---

Can we agree that Scripture Trump's all? It Trumps Chirch tradition, Popes, Teachers, Preachers?

---

No. The Church is the pillar and ground of truth according to 1 Tim 3:15

---

So the "Church" can go against Scripture?

---

It cannot and it has not.

---

How do you know it hasn't?

---

Because Christ established a visible Church and promised the gates of hell would not prevail against it (Matt 16:18). He gave binding authority to that Church. "Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven" (Matt 18:18). The Holy Spirit was promised to guide it into all truth (John 16:13).

You can see fallible men guided by the Holy Spirit in the first council in Acts 15.

The burden is on you to explain why Christ's own promises and institutional design would fail only until the arrival of your specific theology that only a minority of Protestants hold to.

Doc Holliday said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

How do you figure it's been debunked?

---

ScIeNcE!

He will write you a bunch of things that are the greatest wisdom of men to tell you how it and all other things related to supernatural things arent real.

Science is the explanation of the natural, it is a surprised to nobody that they have trouble explaining the supernatural

---

I'll take science over mysticism every time.

We live in the natural world (reality). You can't explain something that doesn't exist, except to give it a name: supernatural. Supernatural = nonexistent.

---

I have had experiences that cannot be explained by your science.. were they non existent?

You have a limited world view based on what you know and that is ok. Maybe one day, you will know more..

I used to believe like you, I didnt grow up in the church. Now I know more..

---

I would suggest that your experiences most likely can be explained. Even your fire tunnels. Science has been continuously closing the gaps that you insert a god for explanation.

Limited world view based on what you know? I think you have that backwards. Science seeks to answer questions about the unknown. Religion purports to know the answer before the question is even asked.

---

as I said before, you are set in your opinion and I am steadfast in mine for very personal reasons that I have not been asked by the Holy Spirrit to share.

We can just agree to disagree.

Enjoy your weekend!

---

Can we agree that Scripture Trump's all? It Trumps Chirch tradition, Popes, Teachers, Preachers?

---

No. The Church is the pillar and ground of truth according to 1 Tim 3:15

---

So the "Church" can go against Scripture?

---

It cannot and it has not.

---

How do you know it hasn't?

---

Because Christ established a visible Church and promised the gates of hell would not prevail against it (Matt 16:18). He gave binding authority to that Church. "Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven" (Matt 18:18). The Holy Spirit was promised to guide it into all truth (John 16:13).

You can see fallible men guided by the Holy Spirit in the first council in Acts 15.

The burden is on you to explain why Christ's own promises and institutional design would fail only until the arrival of your specific theology that only a minority of Protestants hold to.

---

But again.... how do you know that's what that verse means?

Doc Holliday said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

How do you figure it's been debunked?

---

ScIeNcE!

He will write you a bunch of things that are the greatest wisdom of men to tell you how it and all other things related to supernatural things arent real.

Science is the explanation of the natural, it is a surprised to nobody that they have trouble explaining the supernatural

---

I'll take science over mysticism every time.

We live in the natural world (reality). You can't explain something that doesn't exist, except to give it a name: supernatural. Supernatural = nonexistent.

---

I have had experiences that cannot be explained by your science.. were they non existent?

You have a limited world view based on what you know and that is ok. Maybe one day, you will know more..

I used to believe like you, I didnt grow up in the church. Now I know more..

---

I would suggest that your experiences most likely can be explained. Even your fire tunnels. Science has been continuously closing the gaps that you insert a god for explanation.

Limited world view based on what you know? I think you have that backwards. Science seeks to answer questions about the unknown. Religion purports to know the answer before the question is even asked.

---

as I said before, you are set in your opinion and I am steadfast in mine for very personal reasons that I have not been asked by the Holy Spirrit to share.

We can just agree to disagree.

Enjoy your weekend!

---

Can we agree that Scripture Trump's all? It Trumps Chirch tradition, Popes, Teachers, Preachers?

---

No. The Church is the pillar and ground of truth according to 1 Tim 3:15

---

So the "Church" can go against Scripture?

---

It cannot and it has not.

---

How do you know it hasn't?

---

Because Christ established a visible Church and promised the gates of hell would not prevail against it (Matt 16:18). He gave binding authority to that Church. "Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven" (Matt 18:18). The Holy Spirit was promised to guide it into all truth (John 16:13).

You can see fallible men guided by the Holy Spirit in the first council in Acts 15.

The burden is on you to explain why Christ's own promises and institutional design would fail only until the arrival of your specific theology that only a minority of Protestants hold to.

---

First, God's truth is not subject to any human definition or opinion of same and never will be.

Second, the 10 faithless Israelite spies died in the wilderness, whereas the 2 believing spies were the only Israelites of their generation to enter the Promised Land.

canoso said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

How do you figure it's been debunked?

---

ScIeNcE!

He will write you a bunch of things that are the greatest wisdom of men to tell you how it and all other things related to supernatural things arent real.

Science is the explanation of the natural, it is a surprised to nobody that they have trouble explaining the supernatural

---

I'll take science over mysticism every time.

We live in the natural world (reality). You can't explain something that doesn't exist, except to give it a name: supernatural. Supernatural = nonexistent.

---

I have had experiences that cannot be explained by your science.. were they non existent?

You have a limited world view based on what you know and that is ok. Maybe one day, you will know more..

I used to believe like you, I didnt grow up in the church. Now I know more..

---

I would suggest that your experiences most likely can be explained. Even your fire tunnels. Science has been continuously closing the gaps that you insert a god for explanation.

Limited world view based on what you know? I think you have that backwards. Science seeks to answer questions about the unknown. Religion purports to know the answer before the question is even asked.

---

as I said before, you are set in your opinion and I am steadfast in mine for very personal reasons that I have not been asked by the Holy Spirrit to share.

We can just agree to disagree.

Enjoy your weekend!

---

Can we agree that Scripture Trump's all? It Trumps Chirch tradition, Popes, Teachers, Preachers?

---

No. The Church is the pillar and ground of truth according to 1 Tim 3:15

---

So the "Church" can go against Scripture?

---

It cannot and it has not.

---

How do you know it hasn't?

---

Because Christ established a visible Church and promised the gates of hell would not prevail against it (Matt 16:18). He gave binding authority to that Church. "Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven" (Matt 18:18). The Holy Spirit was promised to guide it into all truth (John 16:13).

You can see fallible men guided by the Holy Spirit in the first council in Acts 15.

The burden is on you to explain why Christ's own promises and institutional design would fail only until the arrival of your specific theology that only a minority of Protestants hold to.

---

First, God's truth is not subject to any human definition or opinion of same and never will be.

Second, the 10 faithless Israelite spies died in the wilderness, whereas the 2 believing spies were the only Israelites of their generation to enter the Promised Land.

---

"Wide is the road that leads to destruction...."

The fatal assumption of the RC and Orthodox churches is that they are in fact the true church that the "gates of Hades" will never prevail against. It never even occurs to them that the true church was always just a tiny remnant that survived throughout history, while these big, proud institutions of men fell by the way of the wide path.

MadvillainBear20 said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

How do you figure it's been debunked?

---

ScIeNcE!

He will write you a bunch of things that are the greatest wisdom of men to tell you how it and all other things related to supernatural things arent real.

Science is the explanation of the natural, it is a surprised to nobody that they have trouble explaining the supernatural

---

I'll take science over mysticism every time.

We live in the natural world (reality). You can't explain something that doesn't exist, except to give it a name: supernatural. Supernatural = nonexistent.

---

I have had experiences that cannot be explained by your science.. were they non existent?

You have a limited world view based on what you know and that is ok. Maybe one day, you will know more..

I used to believe like you, I didnt grow up in the church. Now I know more..

---

I would suggest that your experiences most likely can be explained. Even your fire tunnels. Science has been continuously closing the gaps that you insert a god for explanation.

Limited world view based on what you know? I think you have that backwards. Science seeks to answer questions about the unknown. Religion purports to know the answer before the question is even asked.

---

as I said before, you are set in your opinion and I am steadfast in mine for very personal reasons that I have not been asked by the Holy Spirrit to share.

We can just agree to disagree.

Enjoy your weekend!

---

We can do that, and you enjoy yours also.

---

Who is Jesus to you? Because if Jesus is who He claimed to be, that changes everything about the old and New Testament.

---

We don't know for sure what he claimed to be. Assuming he existed, which I believe is likely, I think the most you can say about him is that he likely was an apocalyptic Jewish preacher, who believed the end times were at hand, much in the vein of John the Baptist. He likely found himself at cross-purposes with the Roman government, and was executed. Everything else is the subject of theological lore, legend, and collection of fragmented writings written in the style of that cultural period, and written down (mostly decades later) by individuals (mostly unknown) who had a theology to advance. That semi-cohesive message has been curated and selectively advanced over other competing theology by those successful in the politically forming church hierarchy. That's a simplistic picture in a nutshell based upon critical textural and historical scholars, as opposed to theological apologetic attempts to read/interpret their theological agenda as historical fact. All we have are the words of Christianity that were written years later by educated Greek writing theologians after the religion began to take hold and grow.

Hidden in the first word of Genesis,in the old testiment, the Herbrew word "Bere****" is the words "The Son of God, consumed and destroyed by His own hand, on a cross, with thorns on His head. The sign of the covenant."

The very first word of the Bible.

TexasScientist said:

---

MadvillainBear20 said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

How do you figure it's been debunked?

---

ScIeNcE!

He will write you a bunch of things that are the greatest wisdom of men to tell you how it and all other things related to supernatural things arent real.

Science is the explanation of the natural, it is a surprised to nobody that they have trouble explaining the supernatural

---

I'll take science over mysticism every time.

We live in the natural world (reality). You can't explain something that doesn't exist, except to give it a name: supernatural. Supernatural = nonexistent.

---

I have had experiences that cannot be explained by your science.. were they non existent?

You have a limited world view based on what you know and that is ok. Maybe one day, you will know more..

I used to believe like you, I didnt grow up in the church. Now I know more..

---

I would suggest that your experiences most likely can be explained. Even your fire tunnels. Science has been continuously closing the gaps that you insert a god for explanation.

Limited world view based on what you know? I think you have that backwards. Science seeks to answer questions about the unknown. Religion purports to know the answer before the question is even asked.

---

as I said before, you are set in your opinion and I am steadfast in mine for very personal reasons that I have not been asked by the Holy Spirrit to share.

We can just agree to disagree.

Enjoy your weekend!

---

We can do that, and you enjoy yours also.

---

Who is Jesus to you? Because if Jesus is who He claimed to be, that changes everything about the old and New Testament.

---

We don't know for sure what he claimed to be. Assuming he existed, which I believe is likely, I think the most you can say about him is that he likely was an apocalyptic Jewish preacher, who believed the end times were at hand, much in the vein of John the Baptist. He likely found himself at cross-purposes with the Roman government, and was executed. Everything else is the subject of theological lore, legend, and collection of fragmented writings written in the style of that cultural period, and written down (mostly decades later) by individuals (mostly unknown) who had a theology to advance. That semi-cohesive message has been curated and selectively advanced over other competing theology by those successful in the politically forming church hierarchy. That's a simplistic picture in a nutshell based upon critical textural and historical scholars, as opposed to theological apologetic attempts to read/interpret their theological agenda as historical fact. All we have are the words of Christianity that were written years later by educated Greek writing theologians after the religion began to take hold and grow.

---

The alternative to your view is that everything that the Bible says about Jesus is all true.

In fact, most historians agree that the following are considered well-attested historical events:

• Jesus was crucified, dead and buried;
• his tomb was empty days later;
• his disciples fully believed they saw the risen Jesus;
• they went on from there boldly proclaiming his resurrection, even at the risk to their life and liberty.

Thus, making it perfectly reasonable to believe that their testimony, which we know is preserved in the writings of the New Testament, is all true.

canoso said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

How do you figure it's been debunked?

---

ScIeNcE!

He will write you a bunch of things that are the greatest wisdom of men to tell you how it and all other things related to supernatural things arent real.

Science is the explanation of the natural, it is a surprised to nobody that they have trouble explaining the supernatural

---

I'll take science over mysticism every time.

We live in the natural world (reality). You can't explain something that doesn't exist, except to give it a name: supernatural. Supernatural = nonexistent.

---

I have had experiences that cannot be explained by your science.. were they non existent?

You have a limited world view based on what you know and that is ok. Maybe one day, you will know more..

I used to believe like you, I didnt grow up in the church. Now I know more..

---

I would suggest that your experiences most likely can be explained. Even your fire tunnels. Science has been continuously closing the gaps that you insert a god for explanation.

Limited world view based on what you know? I think you have that backwards. Science seeks to answer questions about the unknown. Religion purports to know the answer before the question is even asked.

---

as I said before, you are set in your opinion and I am steadfast in mine for very personal reasons that I have not been asked by the Holy Spirrit to share.

We can just agree to disagree.

Enjoy your weekend!

---

Can we agree that Scripture Trump's all? It Trumps Chirch tradition, Popes, Teachers, Preachers?

---

No. The Church is the pillar and ground of truth according to 1 Tim 3:15

---

So the "Church" can go against Scripture?

---

It cannot and it has not.

---

How do you know it hasn't?

---

Because Christ established a visible Church and promised the gates of hell would not prevail against it (Matt 16:18). He gave binding authority to that Church. "Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven" (Matt 18:18). The Holy Spirit was promised to guide it into all truth (John 16:13).

You can see fallible men guided by the Holy Spirit in the first council in Acts 15.

The burden is on you to explain why Christ's own promises and institutional design would fail only until the arrival of your specific theology that only a minority of Protestants hold to.

---

First, God's truth is not subject to any human definition or opinion of same and never will be.

Second, the 10 faithless Israelite spies died in the wilderness, whereas the 2 believing spies were the only Israelites of their generation to enter the Promised Land.

---

You say truth isn't subject to human opinion. Agreed. That's exactly why Christ didn't leave us with 40,000 denominations all privately reading Scripture and contradicting each other. He established a Church, gave it binding authority, and promised the Spirit would guide it.

Caleb and Joshua weren't innovating a new theology 1,500 years later and claiming everyone before them had it wrong. They were faithful to what God had already revealed. The Reformers did the opposite. They broke from the continuous institutional Church and invented categories no Father, council, or bishop ever taught.

Did you know the New Testament canon was finalized based largely on which books were being read in apostolic liturgical worship? The criterion wasn't private Bible study. It was altar use.

Did you know every major heresy in church history, Arianism, Gnosticism, Marcionism, claimed to follow Scripture? The Church didn't defeat them with a Bible verse. It defeated them with a council.

Did you know the New Testament quotes and alludes to the deuterocanonical books the Protestant canon removed? Hebrews 11 alludes to 2 Maccabees. Wisdom of Solomon is all over Paul's letters.

Did you know the Protestant Old Testament canon was determined by appealing to rabbis who rejected Christ? The deuterocanonical books, Maccabees, Sirach, Wisdom, Tobit, were read in the early Church, quoted in the New Testament, and used by the Fathers. Luther removed them by deferring to a Jewish council convened after the resurrection specifically by people who denied it.

The church founded by a monk who burned papal bulls, translated the Bible with an anti-sacramental bias, added the word "alone" to Romans 3:28 where it doesn't exist in Greek, and appealed to Christ-rejecting rabbis to trim your Old Testament.
Think carefully about who's on the wide road.

Doc Holliday said:

---

canoso said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

How do you figure it's been debunked?

---

ScIeNcE!

He will write you a bunch of things that are the greatest wisdom of men to tell you how it and all other things related to supernatural things arent real.

Science is the explanation of the natural, it is a surprised to nobody that they have trouble explaining the supernatural

---

I'll take science over mysticism every time.

We live in the natural world (reality). You can't explain something that doesn't exist, except to give it a name: supernatural. Supernatural = nonexistent.

---

I have had experiences that cannot be explained by your science.. were they non existent?

You have a limited world view based on what you know and that is ok. Maybe one day, you will know more..

I used to believe like you, I didnt grow up in the church. Now I know more..

---

I would suggest that your experiences most likely can be explained. Even your fire tunnels. Science has been continuously closing the gaps that you insert a god for explanation.

Limited world view based on what you know? I think you have that backwards. Science seeks to answer questions about the unknown. Religion purports to know the answer before the question is even asked.

---

as I said before, you are set in your opinion and I am steadfast in mine for very personal reasons that I have not been asked by the Holy Spirrit to share.

We can just agree to disagree.

Enjoy your weekend!

---

Can we agree that Scripture Trump's all? It Trumps Chirch tradition, Popes, Teachers, Preachers?

---

No. The Church is the pillar and ground of truth according to 1 Tim 3:15

---

So the "Church" can go against Scripture?

---

It cannot and it has not.

---

How do you know it hasn't?

---

Because Christ established a visible Church and promised the gates of hell would not prevail against it (Matt 16:18). He gave binding authority to that Church. "Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven" (Matt 18:18). The Holy Spirit was promised to guide it into all truth (John 16:13).

You can see fallible men guided by the Holy Spirit in the first council in Acts 15.

The burden is on you to explain why Christ's own promises and institutional design would fail only until the arrival of your specific theology that only a minority of Protestants hold to.

---

First, God's truth is not subject to any human definition or opinion of same and never will be.

Second, the 10 faithless Israelite spies died in the wilderness, whereas the 2 believing spies were the only Israelites of their generation to enter the Promised Land.

---

You say truth isn't subject to human opinion. Agreed. That's exactly why Christ didn't leave us with 40,000 denominations all privately reading Scripture and contradicting each other. He established a Church, gave it binding authority, and promised the Spirit would guide it.

Caleb and Joshua weren't innovating a new theology 1,500 years later and claiming everyone before them had it wrong. They were faithful to what God had already revealed. The Reformers did the opposite. They broke from the continuous institutional Church and invented categories no Father, council, or bishop ever taught.

---

Caleb and Joshua were the minority and were the only two Israelites of their generation to enter the Promised Land. The kingdom of heaven is not a democracy.

Doc Holliday said:

---

Did you know the New Testament canon was finalized based largely on which books were being read in apostolic liturgical worship? The criterion wasn't private Bible study. It was altar use.

Did you know every major heresy in church history, Arianism, Gnosticism, Marcionism, claimed to follow Scripture? The Church didn't defeat them with a Bible verse. It defeated them with a council.

Did you know the New Testament quotes and alludes to the deuterocanonical books the Protestant canon removed? Hebrews 11 alludes to 2 Maccabees. Wisdom of Solomon is all over Paul's letters.

Did you know the Protestant Old Testament canon was determined by appealing to rabbis who rejected Christ? The deuterocanonical books, Maccabees, Sirach, Wisdom, Tobit, were read in the early Church, quoted in the New Testament, and used by the Fathers. Luther removed them by deferring to a Jewish council convened after the resurrection specifically by people who denied it.

The church founded by a monk who burned papal bulls, translated the Bible with an anti-sacramental bias, added the word "alone" to Romans 3:28 where it doesn't exist in Greek, and appealed to Christ-rejecting rabbis to trim your Old Testament.
Think carefully about who's on the wide road.

---

- The books read in apostolic liturgical worship were read because they were apostolic. The reason why those books are read in Bible study today is because they are apostolic, and therefore Scripture.

- all the major heresies errantly interpreted Scripture and were even in direct contradiction to it. For example, Arianism held that Jesus was a created being - but the gospel of John clearly says Jesus existed eternally with God, being God himself (John 1:1 and 8:58). The councils ruled based on what the clear meaning of Scripture was, and we can come to the same conclusion today as they did using Scripture alone - without the council's ruling. In other words, it's not true because a council said so, it's true because Scripture says so.

- Paul also alludes to and even quotes pagan Greek philosphers. Obviously, that doesn't make it Scripture.

- The rabbis rejected Jesus, but Jesus himself verified that their canon was correct. This is a clear example of how the church can get the canon right, but not be infallible. The deuterocanonical books were viewed as being worthy of reading and studying, but the Jews did NOT consider them on the same level as canon scripture. They did not "lay up" those books in the Temple as they did the Tanakh. The earliest known Christian canon lists, Melito's canon and Bryennios' list, did not contain the major books of the deuterocanon. Even in the Roman Catholic Church from the time of Jerome until the middle ages, the vast majority of Roman Catholic fathers, theologians, scholars, and major Christian reference texts did NOT consider the deuterocanon to be part of the canon. Even Athanasius, considered the "father of Orthodoxy", did NOT include them in his canon list. And Jesus only verified the Tanakh (The Old Testament) as being God's word, not the deuterocanon. Neither did he or any of his apostles ever quote from them. The claim that protestants "removed' books from the Bible is a flat out lie that Roman Catholics and Orthodox keep regurgitating as a talking point. It's actually their "Church" that added books.

- Protestantism is not a founded "church". It's a movement. It's a movement to return to original Christianity based on Scripture, away from the egregious and obvious abuses of the Roman Catholic Church. It's a movement that is followed today.

And once again - if you truly can't see that bowing and praying to images of Mary and the saints and crediting Mary for your salvation, not to mention holding to a false gospel of faith AND works are the marks of being on the "wide road" to destruction, then you truly have no discernment. None at all. And that means you are not part of the true church, being devoid of the Holy Spirit.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

How do you figure it's been debunked?

---

ScIeNcE!

He will write you a bunch of things that are the greatest wisdom of men to tell you how it and all other things related to supernatural things arent real.

Science is the explanation of the natural, it is a surprised to nobody that they have trouble explaining the supernatural

---

I'll take science over mysticism every time.

We live in the natural world (reality). You can't explain something that doesn't exist, except to give it a name: supernatural. Supernatural = nonexistent.

---

I have had experiences that cannot be explained by your science.. were they non existent?

You have a limited world view based on what you know and that is ok. Maybe one day, you will know more..

I used to believe like you, I didnt grow up in the church. Now I know more..

---

I would suggest that your experiences most likely can be explained. Even your fire tunnels. Science has been continuously closing the gaps that you insert a god for explanation.

Limited world view based on what you know? I think you have that backwards. Science seeks to answer questions about the unknown. Religion purports to know the answer before the question is even asked.

---

as I said before, you are set in your opinion and I am steadfast in mine for very personal reasons that I have not been asked by the Holy Spirrit to share.

We can just agree to disagree.

Enjoy your weekend!

---

Can we agree that Scripture Trump's all? It Trumps Chirch tradition, Popes, Teachers, Preachers?

---

No. The Church is the pillar and ground of truth according to 1 Tim 3:15

---

So the "Church" can go against Scripture?

---

It cannot and it has not.

---

How do you know it hasn't?

---

Because Christ established a visible Church and promised the gates of hell would not prevail against it (Matt 16:18). He gave binding authority to that Church. "Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven" (Matt 18:18). The Holy Spirit was promised to guide it into all truth (John 16:13).

You can see fallible men guided by the Holy Spirit in the first council in Acts 15.

The burden is on you to explain why Christ's own promises and institutional design would fail only until the arrival of your specific theology that only a minority of Protestants hold to.

---

But again.... how do you know that's what that verse means?

---

Doc?? Did a light bulb go off?

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Did you know the New Testament canon was finalized based largely on which books were being read in apostolic liturgical worship? The criterion wasn't private Bible study. It was altar use.

Did you know every major heresy in church history, Arianism, Gnosticism, Marcionism, claimed to follow Scripture? The Church didn't defeat them with a Bible verse. It defeated them with a council.

Did you know the New Testament quotes and alludes to the deuterocanonical books the Protestant canon removed? Hebrews 11 alludes to 2 Maccabees. Wisdom of Solomon is all over Paul's letters.

Did you know the Protestant Old Testament canon was determined by appealing to rabbis who rejected Christ? The deuterocanonical books, Maccabees, Sirach, Wisdom, Tobit, were read in the early Church, quoted in the New Testament, and used by the Fathers. Luther removed them by deferring to a Jewish council convened after the resurrection specifically by people who denied it.

The church founded by a monk who burned papal bulls, translated the Bible with an anti-sacramental bias, added the word "alone" to Romans 3:28 where it doesn't exist in Greek, and appealed to Christ-rejecting rabbis to trim your Old Testament.
Think carefully about who's on the wide road.

---

- The books read in apostolic liturgical worship were read because they were apostolic. The reason why those books are read in Bible study today is because they are apostolic, and therefore Scripture.

- all the major heresies errantly interpreted Scripture and were even in direct contradiction to it. For example, Arianism held that Jesus was a created being - but the gospel of John clearly says Jesus existed eternally with God, being God himself (John 1:1 and 8:58). The councils ruled based on what the clear meaning of Scripture was, and we can come to the same conclusion today as they did using Scripture alone - without the council's ruling. In other words, it's not true because a council said so, it's true because Scripture says so.

- Paul also alludes to and even quotes pagan Greek philosphers. Obviously, that doesn't make it Scripture.

- The rabbis rejected Jesus, but Jesus himself verified that their canon was correct. This is a clear example of how the church can get the canon right, but not be infallible. The deuterocanonical books were viewed as being worthy of reading and studying, but the Jews did NOT consider them on the same level as canon scripture. They did not "lay up" those books in the Temple as they did the Tanakh. The earliest known Christian canon lists, Melito's canon and Bryennios' list, did not contain the major books of the deuterocanon. Even in the Roman Catholic Church from the time of Jerome until the middle ages, the vast majority of Roman Catholic fathers, theologians, scholars, and major Christian reference texts did NOT consider the deuterocanon to be part of the canon. Even Athanasius, considered the "father of Orthodoxy", did NOT include them in his canon list. And Jesus only verified the Tanakh (The Old Testament) as being God's word, not the deuterocanon. Neither did he or any of his apostles ever quote from them. The claim that protestants "removed' books from the Bible is a flat out lie that Roman Catholics and Orthodox keep regurgitating as a talking point. It's actually their "Church" that added books.

- Protestantism is not a founded "church". It's a movement. It's a movement to return to original Christianity based on Scripture, away from the egregious and obvious abuses of the Roman Catholic Church. It's a movement that is followed today.

And once again - if you truly can't see that bowing and praying to images of Mary and the saints and crediting Mary for your salvation, not to mention holding to a false gospel of faith AND works are the marks of being on the "wide road" to destruction, then you truly have no discernment. None at all. And that means you are not part of the true church, being devoid of the Holy Spirit.

---

We don't pray to saints. We ask them to pray for us.

You just conceded my point. The books were read because they were apostolic, and the Church recognized that. That recognition required an authoritative judgment by the Church. Someone had to decide. That someone wasn't you or Luther. It was the Church. You can't appeal to the Church's judgment on the 27 books and then reject its judgment on the others.

The councils didn't just cite proof texts. They defined the terms. "Homoousios," the word that defeated Arianism, appears nowhere in Scripture. The Church had to determine what Scripture meant using language Scripture didn't provide. That's not sola scriptura. That's the Church functioning exactly as 1 Tim 3:15 says it should

Jesus never gives a canonical list. This is an argument from silence. He quotes frequently from the LXX, the Greek Old Testament that included the deuterocanon. The apostolic Church used the LXX, not the Palestinian rabbinic canon.

You absolutely rely on Talmudic rabbinic Jews for your OT canon.

A movement that produces 40,000 contradictory denominations all claiming Scripture alone isn't a return to anything. It's fragmentation. The early Church was visibly unified. Your movement is visibly not.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

How do you figure it's been debunked?

---

ScIeNcE!

He will write you a bunch of things that are the greatest wisdom of men to tell you how it and all other things related to supernatural things arent real.

Science is the explanation of the natural, it is a surprised to nobody that they have trouble explaining the supernatural

---

I'll take science over mysticism every time.

We live in the natural world (reality). You can't explain something that doesn't exist, except to give it a name: supernatural. Supernatural = nonexistent.

---

I have had experiences that cannot be explained by your science.. were they non existent?

You have a limited world view based on what you know and that is ok. Maybe one day, you will know more..

I used to believe like you, I didnt grow up in the church. Now I know more..

---

I would suggest that your experiences most likely can be explained. Even your fire tunnels. Science has been continuously closing the gaps that you insert a god for explanation.

Limited world view based on what you know? I think you have that backwards. Science seeks to answer questions about the unknown. Religion purports to know the answer before the question is even asked.

---

as I said before, you are set in your opinion and I am steadfast in mine for very personal reasons that I have not been asked by the Holy Spirrit to share.

We can just agree to disagree.

Enjoy your weekend!

---

Can we agree that Scripture Trump's all? It Trumps Chirch tradition, Popes, Teachers, Preachers?

---

No. The Church is the pillar and ground of truth according to 1 Tim 3:15

---

So the "Church" can go against Scripture?

---

It cannot and it has not.

---

How do you know it hasn't?

---

Because Christ established a visible Church and promised the gates of hell would not prevail against it (Matt 16:18). He gave binding authority to that Church. "Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven" (Matt 18:18). The Holy Spirit was promised to guide it into all truth (John 16:13).

You can see fallible men guided by the Holy Spirit in the first council in Acts 15.

The burden is on you to explain why Christ's own promises and institutional design would fail only until the arrival of your specific theology that only a minority of Protestants hold to.

---

But again.... how do you know that's what that verse means?

---

Doc?? Did a light bulb go off?

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Yeah that you think the Church immediately went into apostasy and into heresy until Luther came along. Shame on you.

Name the remnant church before Luther. Where were they. What did they teach. Until you can answer that, you're defending a church that has no history before 1517.

Doc Holliday said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Doc Holliday said:

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Did you know the New Testament canon was finalized based largely on which books were being read in apostolic liturgical worship? The criterion wasn't private Bible study. It was altar use.

Did you know every major heresy in church history, Arianism, Gnosticism, Marcionism, claimed to follow Scripture? The Church didn't defeat them with a Bible verse. It defeated them with a council.

Did you know the New Testament quotes and alludes to the deuterocanonical books the Protestant canon removed? Hebrews 11 alludes to 2 Maccabees. Wisdom of Solomon is all over Paul's letters.

Did you know the Protestant Old Testament canon was determined by appealing to rabbis who rejected Christ? The deuterocanonical books, Maccabees, Sirach, Wisdom, Tobit, were read in the early Church, quoted in the New Testament, and used by the Fathers. Luther removed them by deferring to a Jewish council convened after the resurrection specifically by people who denied it.

The church founded by a monk who burned papal bulls, translated the Bible with an anti-sacramental bias, added the word "alone" to Romans 3:28 where it doesn't exist in Greek, and appealed to Christ-rejecting rabbis to trim your Old Testament.
Think carefully about who's on the wide road.

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- The books read in apostolic liturgical worship were read because they were apostolic. The reason why those books are read in Bible study today is because they are apostolic, and therefore Scripture.

- all the major heresies errantly interpreted Scripture and were even in direct contradiction to it. For example, Arianism held that Jesus was a created being - but the gospel of John clearly says Jesus existed eternally with God, being God himself (John 1:1 and 8:58). The councils ruled based on what the clear meaning of Scripture was, and we can come to the same conclusion today as they did using Scripture alone - without the council's ruling. In other words, it's not true because a council said so, it's true because Scripture says so.

- Paul also alludes to and even quotes pagan Greek philosphers. Obviously, that doesn't make it Scripture.

- The rabbis rejected Jesus, but Jesus himself verified that their canon was correct. This is a clear example of how the church can get the canon right, but not be infallible. The deuterocanonical books were viewed as being worthy of reading and studying, but the Jews did NOT consider them on the same level as canon scripture. They did not "lay up" those books in the Temple as they did the Tanakh. The earliest known Christian canon lists, Melito's canon and Bryennios' list, did not contain the major books of the deuterocanon. Even in the Roman Catholic Church from the time of Jerome until the middle ages, the vast majority of Roman Catholic fathers, theologians, scholars, and major Christian reference texts did NOT consider the deuterocanon to be part of the canon. Even Athanasius, considered the "father of Orthodoxy", did NOT include them in his canon list. And Jesus only verified the Tanakh (The Old Testament) as being God's word, not the deuterocanon. Neither did he or any of his apostles ever quote from them. The claim that protestants "removed' books from the Bible is a flat out lie that Roman Catholics and Orthodox keep regurgitating as a talking point. It's actually their "Church" that added books.

- Protestantism is not a founded "church". It's a movement. It's a movement to return to original Christianity based on Scripture, away from the egregious and obvious abuses of the Roman Catholic Church. It's a movement that is followed today.

And once again - if you truly can't see that bowing and praying to images of Mary and the saints and crediting Mary for your salvation, not to mention holding to a false gospel of faith AND works are the marks of being on the "wide road" to destruction, then you truly have no discernment. None at all. And that means you are not part of the true church, being devoid of the Holy Spirit.

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We don't pray to saints. We ask them to pray for us.

You just conceded my point. The books were read because they were apostolic, and the Church recognized that. That recognition required an authoritative judgment by the Church. Someone had to decide. That someone wasn't you or Luther. It was the Church. You can't appeal to the Church's judgment on the 27 books and then reject its judgment on the others.

The councils didn't just cite proof texts. They defined the terms. "Homoousios," the word that defeated Arianism, appears nowhere in Scripture. The Church had to determine what Scripture meant using language Scripture didn't provide. That's not sola scriptura. That's the Church functioning exactly as 1 Tim 3:15 says it should

Jesus never gives a canonical list. This is an argument from silence. He quotes frequently from the LXX, the Greek Old Testament that included the deuterocanon. The apostolic Church used the LXX, not the Palestinian rabbinic canon.

You absolutely rely on Talmudic rabbinic Jews for your OT canon.

A movement that produces 40,000 contradictory denominations all claiming Scripture alone isn't a return to anything. It's fragmentation. The early Church was visibly unified. Your movement is visibly not.

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- You "ask" them to pray for you..... by praying to them.

- The "Church" that decided in a council on the apostolicity of those books relied on the witness and testimony of those Christians who preceded them. Who or what was the authority that told those Christians? And those Christians relied on the witness of those before them. Who or what was their authority? We accept the apostolicity of the books of Scripture, because that was what the church always believed, not what the "Church" told us to believe. You continually fail to understand this.

- I just showed how from just Scripture, Arianism could be rejected. "Homoousios" is just a term that a council of men made to describe what Scripture already says (John 1:1 and 8:58, just to name a couple). The council didn't invent any new concept that wasn't already in Scripture.

- Jesus never gave a canonical list, but if he definitely validated the Hebrew Scriptures by name, but did not do the same for the deuterocanon, and neither did he nor the apostles ever quoted from it like they did the Tanakh. The argument that since they cited from the Septuagint, then it means that every book in the Septuagint was canon Scripture, is extremely flawed. The Septuagint wasn't a single, bound source. It was a collection of translations of scrolls that still remained independent as scrolls, not as a bound book. The Jews translated all their important books into the Septuagint, which included their non-canonical books. Jesus quoting from Isaiah didn't automatically make all the non-canonical books in the Septuagint canonical. That'd be like arguing that if someone quotes from Isaiah in the Trump Bible, then everything in that bible is canonical, including Trump's foreword. This is another concept that Catholics and Orthodox regurgitate as a talking point without understanding how flawed the argument really is. And still, it does absolutely nothing to eliminate the facts that the earliest known canon lists did NOT included the deuterocanon, and that the majority view even within the Roman Catholic Church among fathers, theologicans, scholars, and their own reference texts from the time of Jerome until the middle ages was that the deuterocanon was NOT canon scripture.

- I don't rely just on the Talmudic rabbis' canon, but on the canon by the Jews during the time of Jesus as well as centuries before, whose canon was validated first hand by Jesus himself.

- there are not "40,000" denominations. It's a lie that even Roman Catholic apologists acknowledge and tell their people to abandon. You are full of regurgitated talking points, and very deficient on knowledge of actual church history. And again (and again, and again) - if you really can't discern that bowing and praying to images and crediting Mary for your salvation, as well as promoting a gospel of salvation of faith AND works as well as other very unbiblical (and thus, un-apostolic) teachings means that your church is not "unified" with the true church, then you are devoid of the Holy Spirit, and your church is not the true church.

Doc Holliday said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Doc Holliday said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Doc Holliday said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Doc Holliday said:

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xfrodobagginsx said:

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4th and Inches said:

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TexasScientist said:

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4th and Inches said:

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TexasScientist said:

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4th and Inches said:

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xfrodobagginsx said:

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How do you figure it's been debunked?

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ScIeNcE!

He will write you a bunch of things that are the greatest wisdom of men to tell you how it and all other things related to supernatural things arent real.

Science is the explanation of the natural, it is a surprised to nobody that they have trouble explaining the supernatural

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I'll take science over mysticism every time.

We live in the natural world (reality). You can't explain something that doesn't exist, except to give it a name: supernatural. Supernatural = nonexistent.

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I have had experiences that cannot be explained by your science.. were they non existent?

You have a limited world view based on what you know and that is ok. Maybe one day, you will know more..

I used to believe like you, I didnt grow up in the church. Now I know more..

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I would suggest that your experiences most likely can be explained. Even your fire tunnels. Science has been continuously closing the gaps that you insert a god for explanation.

Limited world view based on what you know? I think you have that backwards. Science seeks to answer questions about the unknown. Religion purports to know the answer before the question is even asked.

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as I said before, you are set in your opinion and I am steadfast in mine for very personal reasons that I have not been asked by the Holy Spirrit to share.

We can just agree to disagree.

Enjoy your weekend!

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Can we agree that Scripture Trump's all? It Trumps Chirch tradition, Popes, Teachers, Preachers?

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No. The Church is the pillar and ground of truth according to 1 Tim 3:15

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So the "Church" can go against Scripture?

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It cannot and it has not.

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How do you know it hasn't?

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Because Christ established a visible Church and promised the gates of hell would not prevail against it (Matt 16:18). He gave binding authority to that Church. "Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven" (Matt 18:18). The Holy Spirit was promised to guide it into all truth (John 16:13).

You can see fallible men guided by the Holy Spirit in the first council in Acts 15.

The burden is on you to explain why Christ's own promises and institutional design would fail only until the arrival of your specific theology that only a minority of Protestants hold to.

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But again.... how do you know that's what that verse means?

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Doc?? Did a light bulb go off?

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Yeah that you think the Church immediately went into apostasy and into heresy until Luther came along. Shame on you.

Name the remnant church before Luther. Where were they. What did they teach. Until you can answer that, you're defending a church that has no history before 1517.

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Did you answer my question? Did the light bulb go off, and so you're trying to divert away from it?